Conference terri::cars_uk

    Ian,
    
    There has been a recent discussion on this in note 331.106 onwards.
    
    In .106 I touched on the idea that Vauxhalls maybe the preferred car.
    I had heard that this was an idea being considered. 
    
    If they do change things in this way I hope a little notice is given
    beforehand rather than a statement that any cars on order will be
    cancelled sorry folks you've got to have a Vauxhall.
    
    Perhaps this discussion does warrant a note of its own.
    
    Royston

    
    If this does happen I'll leave the company.....
    
    The car scheme is one of the few reasons for staying these days, job
    content is the other. However with all other aspects having been eroded
    the past few years this would be the last straw. Sorry Digital but
    thats how it is.
    
    
    								G.P
    

re .2;

Graham, I understand your views.

Now, in my cynical way of viewing life, the universe and everything, maybe
this is a way to further p**s people off, so they leave of their own
accord, thereby saving redundancy payoffs.

But I'm sure Digital would never do such a thing...

Peter.

    Hmmm...wonder if they will apply some kinds of standards to the
    question of who gets Car Allowances...
    
    Mikef

    I reckon it's all rumour. I *really* can't see them having the bottle
    to do this, unless as Peter said they are trying to halve the
    workforce!!!!
    
    Greg

>
>Now, in my cynical way of viewing life, the universe and everything, maybe
>this is a way to further p**s people off, so they leave of their own
>accord, thereby saving redundancy payoffs.
>


this is called "constructive dismissal" and is ILLEGAL if you suspect Digital
bring it up with your manager, if you do leave (feeling you had no choice) take
the company to an industrial tribunal

cheers,
		 /8-P

(who has looked into this, what with certain past events)

    In the current climate, if Digital can save BIG bucks by radically
    changing the car scheme then that is good news for the company.
    
    If your package includes a company car then legally the company should
    provide you with a car of a certain value (Cavalier 1.6 ?) or the
    equivilent in cash (ie opting out of the scheme).
    
    The fact that we have a complete free choice of vehicle and pay the
    extra if more expensive than the allowance is a bonus.
    
    The logical thing to do if there are big savings to be made by 
    having cars supplied by one manufacturer is go for it but still allow
    us to get quotes and pay extra for the car of our choice.
    
    Royston

    The idea of restricting your choice of car to one particular
    manufacture seems to becoming increasingly popular with company car
    fleets, my farther who works for Berkshire County Council is just about
    to renew his company car, and has been told any car you want as long as
    its a FORD, perivously he was allowed any car he wanted from any
    manufacture, so its not just digital doing it.
    
    Neil
    

    At least if they say any model as long as its a Vauxhall will mean
    fewer will leave than if they say "any model as long as its a Ford"

    >>If your package includes a company car then legally the company should
    >>provide you with a car of a certain value (Cavalier 1.6 ?) or the
    >>equivilent in cash (ie opting out of the scheme).
    
    That's exactly what happens in Digital. They take three cars per level,
    then work out the cost, and that is what the allowance is. I saw the
    figures for last year, I think the base level was based on a Cavalier
    1.6 and a Sierra, and AN OTHER.
    
        >>The fact that we have a complete free choice of vehicle and pay the
        >>extra if more expensive than the allowance is a bonus.
    
    Yep, but I doubt it would be cheaper to have a one manufact. scheme.
    
   >> The logical thing to do if there are big savings to be made by having
   >> cars supplied by one manufacturer is go for it but still allow us to
   >> get quotes and pay extra for the car of our choice.
    
    they virtually do this now don't they? I mean they can ring up Vauxhall
    and say 'last year we bought x Vauxhalls, so what price will you give
    us to put on our fixed price list?
    
    Greg
    
    

I still can't see what's wrong with my formula idea.
It would certainly cut admin costs.


	Ian

WHat he meant is that it's not just Digital who allow you
to choose any car. That's how I read it anyway.


	Ian

    re:-1 Yes that is the point that I am trying to make, but also that
    other companys have also looked into and some even changed their policy
    from any car any manufacture to any car made by Joe Bloggs only. So it
    could happen.
    
    Neil

    
    IF  the company goes to a single manufacturer, and that manufacturer
    was Vauxhall, it should come as no great surprise.
    
    Back in January I think there was a bit in the financial press about
    General Motors taking a 40% share in a certain leading Fleet Management
    group.
    
    So, not only would the company be going sole manufacturer, they would
    also be going sole supplier.
    
    As far being cheaper, well potentially it should be. If General Motors
    are supplying the vehicles they get General Motors discounts on
    servicing, tyres, exhausts, batteries... etc.
    
    If you didn't guess ......... PHH
    Stuart

How can we find out the "official" word?


	Ian

    Bear in mind IBM started a schem of Vauxhall only unless the driver
    pays a premium for whatever car they choose. Personally it would depend
    how big the premium was for going away from the preferred supplier as
    to how unhappy I felt. I would think Ford, Vauxhall and Rover were the
    only real possibilities.
    
    I'm sure it will come next Fiscal - and soon.
    
    Andrew
    
    PS I would expect the official word before the end of the fiscal.

Did he say what other ideas were being actively looked
into?


	Ian

	Well as you have all probably found out by now the car scheme is changing.

		ONE VENDOR !!!

	It was inevitable really, but at least they are not stopping us from 
choosing "any" other car - just making us pay for it !

	So my bets are with Vauxhall ( which suits me ) and for those of you who 
cant bear to be seen in the chosen vendors car - you will just have to pay the 
price - egg on my face if its FORD !!!!

Andy

Could be worse..


SKODA's all round........... - Nahh ! Company image to think of !

The way I read it was that there is very little change. 
You can choose a car from the preferred manufacturer, or
from another manufacturer and pay the difference. Surely
the employee contribution will vary from a Corsa to a 
Senator or Carlton.

I guess we have to wait till July 1st to understand what 
the REAL changes are.


	Ian

    Oh well, I wonder how may people will be getting Lotus Carltons for co.
    cars ?
    
    	Rik

	It doesn't say you pay "the difference", it says you pay the "additional
	incremental costs".........my reading of this, is that if they need
	3 people to process all the additional quotes for those who put them in,
	then this will be factored across the people who take a car outside 
	the basket, in addition to the extra lease cost.

	I don't actually know, but it's how I read the mail.

	I wonder if they'll give incentives to people not to belong - as then
	the admin would be zero for them....

	.........oh look, a flying pig!
	
	Heather

So, does this now prove that we have been ripped off by Hertz and/or PHH?

Can we really get a better deal getting 3,000 cars from a single vendor,
than we were able to by using the benefits of leasing via the two
largest leasing companies, who were in competition with each other to
provide us the best prices?

Peter

(who's back is not happy driving his new Cavalier...)

Of the 5 mill that Digital will be saving by using a preferred vendor for 
cars, how much of that saving will be propogated to us the car scheme 
users??

Will we see a reduction in price for these preferred models from say 
Vauxhall, or will we still have to pay the current rate for Vauxhall models 
while the saving goes into the company coffers (not necessarily a bad 
thing).

Is it realistic to say that we still have the choice of taking a 
non-preferred model when the costs may be so high as to be completely 
prohibitive.  And is it realistic to say that we may all see good deals on 
say the Vauxhall range (like a Calibra for 500 quid!!).

Given that the freedom of choice in the car scheme was one of the big 
winners for the job and provided some relief from the discomfort of salary 
freezes etc.  it would be a real shame to see this one worthwhile thing 
snatched away from us. Talk about a kick in the teeth!!

Any thoughts?

Kieran (who's glad he's still got 2 years left on his Golf GTi lease)

I have just rang 'Employee Services' and they quoted me 2950 as the cash value
for a level 5-7. I'm sure that it used to be over 3000. Can someone confirm
this...

I would think 'constructive dismissal' is going to be a phrase that is used a
lot in the next month or so.

Simon

    RE: .29 and others talking about the changes to the car scheme
    
    >>Given that the freedom of choice in the car scheme was one of the big 
    >>winners for the job and provided some relief from the discomfort of
    >>salary  freezes etc.  it would be a real shame to see this one
    >>worthwhile thing  snatched away from us. Talk about a kick in the
    >>teeth!!
    
    Just consider yourself lucky that you even have the possibility of
    being in a car scheme! 

Maybe the preferred choice will be Metallic Blue Renault 19 16vs.
I'd hate to think we'll be able to get Calibras at half of what
I'm paying...



	Ian

    
    re -1 --
    
    
    Don't be too upset. I had a Calibra 16v, & it was the most disappointing 
    (& potentially most dangerous) car of the >30 that I've owned or driven 
    extensively in the past 30 years of driving. IMO, a poseur's slug, I'm 
    afraid..... unreliable, unpredictable rear-end breakaway in press-on
    driving (eg on loose gravel, mountain passes, poor surfaces, & even
    tight bends), gloomy interior, poor accessories compared to my Mazda 626. 
    The only area where it excelled was when the crazily-overgeared box
    allowed you to cruise through Germany very comfortably at 130 mph.
    Suspect the 4x4 turbo is better balanced, & the 6 speed box must help.
    
    2 of my sons have R19 16v's, & they are a vastly better car when driven
    hard than the Calibra. 
    
    
    Colin

>(& potentially most dangerous)

What, even with side impact beams and airbag?


	Ian

>Just consider yourself lucky that you even have the possibility of
>being in a car scheme! 

If I moved jobs to another company, I'd either get a company car or a hike in
salary, so where's the luck in that?

Dave.

re,34:

>had a Calibra 16v, & it was the most disappointing  (& potentially most
>dangerous) car of the >30 that I've owned or driven extensively in the past
>30 years of driving.

You haven't tried the Mondeo yet then Colin?

Dave ;-)

>I have just rang 'Employee Services' and they quoted me 2950 as the cash value
>for a level 5-7. I'm sure that it used to be over 3000. Can someone confirm
>this...


	Well, I've been out for 9 years, and I get 3,000.......I know a few
	level 5-7 got an extra 400, but I don't know what the criteria was
	for the additional 400.

	Heather

    I guess the replies I've had to the base Note are more or less what I
    was expecting.
    
    What concerns me is that the changes that are taking place seem to
    represent a change in management style/culture from one of caring for
    the individual to one of management by accountants.  The car scheme is
    obviously a highly emotive subject with many people who - like me - see
    it (saw it?) as one of the great differentiators that make Digital good
    to work for.
    
    I understand that Digital needs to look very carefully at every penny
    it spends.  However, there is going to be a very real impact on morale/
    motivation if the changes are radical.  I look around and I see people
    who are getting ground down by constant increases in workload with no
    increase in reward (for which, with inflation, you can read 'with
    reducing reward').  Has this factor been considered, or are all
    decisions now made purely on the basis of the impact on the bottom
    line?  It would be nice to think that, sometimes, the company is
    prepared to sacrifice some possible savings for the sake of the
    individual.
    
    If the changes to the car scheme really do save Digital substantial
    sums, then that's great.  If all it does is slightly reduce the average
    cost of a lease to the individual (who, after all, pays for it out of
    his salary) and doesn't save the company much real money, I would argue
    that it's not worth it.
    
    I know we're all lucky to have jobs, cars ...etc.  It is worth
    remembering that Hewlett Packard imposed pay cuts a few years back -
    and look where they are now (paying out large sums in their profit
    sharing scheme).  If Digital's position was life-threatening, then I
    guess we would all be prepared to make sacrifices.  However, my
    understanding is that although times are tough, the worst is past.  We
    are still a cash-rich company.  So how about remembering the poor
    troops who are in the front line?
    
    Ian           

    Why is it I get the impression that the money Digital 'saves' will in
    fact come from our pockets.... the costs to Digital will remain the
    same, the service will remain the same, the choice will decrease and
    the cost to us will increase....
    
    
    One day we're gonna get a memo saying the 20% savings can be made - we
    will all get a 20% pay cut....
    
    
    
    Xtine

    If you aren't already aware, Note 769 in the ROCKS::UK_DIGITAL
    conference carries a similar debate to this Note.  Check it out if you
    want more of the same...
    
    Ian
    

    Re -2
    
    Having just parked at Enterprise House I can assure you that the car
    park is virtually empty and that there are probably no ex-lease car
    there. People leaving this time round are keeping their car during
    "garden leave".
    
    It is difficult to get a space at HHL but you can easily book a space a
    few days in advance.
    
    Paul

>. People leaving this time round are keeping their car during
>    "garden leave".
 
	I don't see why they shouldn't, they're still employed, being paid a
	salary, and are paying for the car - the fact that Digital would
	rather have them at home, than on the premisis, is Digitals decision,
	however, as they are paying for it, I don't see why they shouldn't
	have it.

	Heather

    Re -1
    
    Excuse me but did I imply they shouldn't? All I said that the car park
    was empty because people were not leaving their cars on their last day.
    
    Paul

>    Excuse me but did I imply they shouldn't? All I said that the car park
>    was empty because people were not leaving their cars on their last day.
 
	
	I would suggest they do, just that their last day is the last day of
	their employement with Digital, not their last day working in the 
	office.

	Heather

    I must learn to be more precise...........lat day before garden leave.
    
    paul

I tried to get a space for Friday , and I was told to use the NCP car park 
. I needed to drive in to move some some kit from London to Newbury , and 
as I was in London Friday and Newbury Monday ... Save the company some 
money .... Never mind it now looks like a courier from Enterprise House to 
Newbury. Still at least someone will benefit from being able to park Friday 
 under Enterprise House .


KR

        <<< Note 2100.47 by YUPPY::PATEMAN "Scuba Dive in my Think Tank
                               -< Semantics or what?!?! >-
    
    If you're not careful I'll tell Steve Peake and he'll follow you into
    this conference.  :-) :-) 
    
    
    .Ricey.
    [confused readers tune to note 769.* in ROCKS::UK_DIGITAL]

    As it would appear that existing quotes will be honoured before the new
    car scheme is in place, does anyone out there have a quote for a 
    	       	    
                        	RENAULT 19 16V HATCH
    
    ROB.

    It's on the fixed price list..........

>>>    It's on the fixed price list..........
    
    It still needs a quote, even if it's on the list.

    I've just spoken to car fleet about this (Hilary Bailey noless!)
    
    The situation is this. If you have a quote already being processed then
    you can order from this.
    
    Only orders from personal quotes will be submitted which means you are
    out of luck Clive as no one can order from someone elses quote.
    
    All will become clear when the new scheme is announced in a week or so.
    
    Royston

    Clive,
    
    But although a quote is needed, the punter still JUST SUBMITS AN ORDER,
    and knows the price, hence Mr(s) Punter doesn't have to wait for a quote
    to appear before he/she orders the car.
    
    Greg

    Greg has a good point. I forgot to ask if you can still order from the
    existing preferred list until July 1st.
    
    Royston

    
    
    It strikes me that this is no great change in management strategy (as
    mentioned earlier) this company has always been more interested in its
    share holders than its employees. IMHO I think they have it wrong if
    they motivate the employees right, (the way to a mans heart is through
    his wallet) they will be happier, more contented, have more pride in
    the company and their work.....thus the company will prosper and the
    share holders will be happy. Then we'll all be happy!
    
    but maybe I'm wrong?
    
    Richard
    
    Ps. I'm not hot on the world of finance maybe somebody can enlighten
    me, surely once someone has bought shares, they take their chances, as
    to wether they go up or down in value and wether they get a dividend
    once a year, but the fact the shares go down in value does not affect
    us once the shares have been floated on the stock exchange, unless of
    course we want to sell some more.
    

>    Ps. I'm not hot on the world of finance maybe somebody can enlighten
>    me, surely once someone has bought shares, they take their chances, as
>    to wether they go up or down in value and wether they get a dividend
>    once a year, but the fact the shares go down in value does not affect
>    us once the shares have been floated on the stock exchange, unless of
>    course we want to sell some more.


	If only it were that easy ...

	The problem is that shareholders get to vote at the AGM, which means
	that they  have power over the board ( who are probably large
	shareholders themselves, due to lucrative stock option incentives).

	This, of course, means that senior mangement is motivated to run
	the company so that it maximises short-term profit. So s*d the
	employees. As long as profits are good for a year or two, they get
	their bonuses and can move on somewhere else with a "succesful"
	track-record. In the meantime shareholders will probably have 
	cashed-in their holdings. And guess who's left behind ...
    

    
    Thanks I didn't realise shareholders actually had some power.

	Not only that, if a large shareholder threatens to sell if they don't
	get their way.....or joins with other shareholders......if they did 
	sell, the price would fall dramatically, no-one would buy - noone 
	would loan us money, our customers would decide to hold on to their 
	money with a hope they wouldn't have to pay at all, our suppliers would
	call on their invoices, or want money up front

	And we would go out of business very, very quickly


	Shareholders have the power, and the companies, wall street, and
	major investors know exactly what that power is.
	Ask ken. 	

	Heather

    Re: Shareholder's power
    
        Note that in the UK at least, it's very rare for the shares held by
    individual (private) shareholders to affect anything, due to the
    comparitively large proportion of shares that are held by fund
    managers, etc.  When _they_ take a view that the company needs to do
    something, then they're listened too but if they side with the company
    against the small shareholders, then the company doesn't need to worry.

Now there's an idea, if we could only find out how many shares are held by
employees...

Dave.

    No is the answer, the preferred list no longer exists.
    I attempted to order via someone elses quote and hit a brick wall
    Only the person who requested the quote can order from it, bummer huh!
    There would appear to be no loop holes,........... looks like its a
    Vauxhall !!
    !!

>>    There would appear to be no loop holes,........... looks like its a
>>    Vauxhall !!


No, No, NO, NO!

The mail still says you will be able to get any car of your choice.


Greg

    It will be very interesting to see how much "other manufacturer" quotes
    will be. My guess is that they will be a few hundred quid more.
    
    Lets hope there is a good side to going single vendor. If we are going
    Vauxhall maybe the cost of an Astra GSi or Calibra will be lower than
    at present.
    
    Royston

re .7;

yes, you will still be able to pay extra to get your choice, but at the
moment we have two leasing companies in competition with each other, to
provide the best possible prices and service to us.

After July 4th, we appear to have a single supplier, who seems to have
been able to promise savings of 20%. [I wonder if this means the car
supplement value will be reduced by 20%..... but I digress].

Now, let's look at this scenario...

The "main" supplier can do it for 20% less than today.

To exercise your choice, you will have to use (I guess) a leasing company,
that will be providing a much smaller number of vehicles. Will they be
in competition? Will they be offering the best price? Will this cost
the same as today? Or will you have to pay a premium over today's
cost? (bearing in mind that the value of the supplement may be eroded)

So, I guess you will still have a choice. Whether you can afford to exercise
that choice is of course a different matter.

I hope to get some answers at our group meeting tomorrow.

Peter.

    re .9
    
    Your just guessing.
    I doubt you will get more info in your team meeting. 
    
    Just because we have a preferred manufacturer, doesn't mean we drop PHH
    and Hertz. Other computer companies have preferred manufacturers but
    still have to employ a lease company, strangely enough, in order to
    look after the lease.
    
    

    I can't help thinking that this is all another symptom-fix, and not
    addressing the real problem.
    
    Laurie.

    yes kill the whole car scheme!! no smiley
    give us the money and thats that all over with.
    And a mileage a bit more decent than 8p
    
    no more endless discussions over the scheme,
    no more fudging the pay and benefits
    simplicity is best no company cars

    The problem? Well, I *assume* it's one of expense. I say, "fixing the
    symptom" because the rationale behind the single vendor scheme is
    clearly one of saving money. Now, the problem could perhaps be better
    fixed by say, using more leasing companies in a competitive manner, or
    perhaps using those we already have more effectively. However, like
    most of the things Digital does, the motive seems to be to make the
    lives of the people whose job it is to administer these things,
    easier, and sod the end-user.
    
    Laurie.
    
    PS. I'm a contractor, and so, it's not my problem. I'm just observing.

>    The problem? Well, I *assume* it's one of expense. I say, "fixing the
>    symptom" because the rationale behind the single vendor scheme is
>    clearly one of saving money. Now, the problem could perhaps be better
>    fixed by say, using more leasing companies in a competitive manner, or
>    perhaps using those we already have more effectively. However, like
>    most of the things Digital does, the motive seems to be to make the
>    lives of the people whose job it is to administer these things,
>    easier, and sod the end-user.

Ye Gods, how many time's will I have to say this!

NOWHERE in the memo does it say we will only use one leasing company. 
NOWHERE. There is nothing to stop us negotiating with the single vendor to 
get discounts on models after the lease cost. AN Other computer company I 
know of has a deal with Vauxhall. They pay 'standard' lease costs, then 
VAUXHALL give them money back per car leased.

Now, come the 1st July I may be wrong, but I see little point in fault 
finding when no-one actually knows what the new scheme is. 


Greg

Laurie, 

Why don't you put your figures in a mail and send them to Chris Conway for 
clarification?

Greg

    RE: .74
    
    Because as a contractor, as far as I'm concerned, the whole thing is
    moot.
    
    Laurie.

    re .74
    
    I don't think we should get into the habit of sending everything to CC
    just because he replies. Once the figures come out in detail I'd like
    to understand how we save the company 5mill. My thoughts run like
    this:-
    5 million saving to Digital. Let's hope we the employees save a bit too
    say 1million.
    3,500 cars (4,500 employees so hopefully less cars)
    1,700 saving per car per year.
    I could be convinced that Vauxhall (say) would give us an extra 10% per
    car on purchase price so that might be 1,500.
    After that I'm beat.
    Insurance, service, accidents, theft, tyres... no significant change.
    
    I don't know if I believe the 26million either.
    
    Andrew

Where did the Vauxhall rumour start?

Why not Rover?

Mark.

	There would be very little admin charge, no quotes, as the cars
	would come off the standard list.

	I would expect people who take the non-standard cars and quote, to have
	to cover the cost of this admin(and people who do the admin) in their 
	payments.

	Heather

The Vauxhall rumour? Beats me, I heard GM.

Dave ;-)

    I heard it was between Renault, Nissan and Vauxhall.
    
    Royston

	I would expect vauxhall to be in the running, it has been specifically
	targetting companies to get them to deal direct.
	It now has 40% of the company car market in the UK.

	To get this percentage, it must be doing good deals.

	Heather

    RE. -1 
    
    Let's just say, from a very informed source - "It's Vauxhall".!
    
    Andy

    RE .78
    
    >	There would be very little admin charge, no quotes, as the cars
    >	would come off the standard list.
    
    Why will there be no quotes...? we have a standard list now and a quote
    is still done for each and every order off it...
    
    If this is where the savings come then why not stop getting quotes for
    those off the preferred list....
    
    
    Xtine

	I mean a quote from the supplier.......we have to get quotes now,
	because we get PHH and Hertz to bid against each other, and we get
	the cheapest quote (even for the "basket" cars).

	If we don't do that from vauxhall(or whoever), but have a standard 
	price from them, then there's no need for a quote, we've already got the
	price.

	Heather

    I received a copy of "Fleet Car" magazine today. In there is a company
    claiming to be able to save 30% in some areas and to have saved over
    1mill for a 700 car fleet. We are only claiming <20%. Perhaps we could
    have done better.
    
    Andrew

    re: "Why not Rover?"
    
    I once asked that (long ago, and in another company) and the answer was
    that the residuals were better with Ford and Vauxhall.
    
    Richard
    

    Of course, if they really wanted to save money, they'd switch the
    fleet to diesels!
    
    Laurie$Pug_405_GLDT_Estate.

>> I once asked that (long ago, and in another company) and the answer was
>>    that the residuals were better with Ford and Vauxhall.
  
    I doubt that's the case now.  Rovers come in with very good lease
    costs.  A major part of the lease cost is a reflection of residual
    value.  What does happen though is that Rovers tend to be higher spec
    than Ford / Vauxhall, thus their price is higher.

    ...ITS VAUXHALL (I guess :^))
    
    We keep refering to PHH/Hertz, arent Vauxhall big enough to run their
    own leasing dept. specifically for Vauxhall cars for Corporate clients
    ?  This MUST be where the savings are to be made. Vauxhall franchise
    holders can fit batteries/exhausts, straighten bent cars, provide
    hire/loan cars etc., all that has to be buttoned up
    is the Great Tyre Company Rip-off & the whole thing is in-house.
    
    ...& if you dont want Vauxhall, then perhaps it means a quote from X or
    Y. (At a premium of course).
    
    I'd love to see how the figure for the savings is arrived at, I
    speculate that it mainly comes from Users not having to become so
    deeply involved in procuring their own cars & hunting missing TAX discs
    & arranging with Leasers for MOT's etc., this is an area in which
    I've had to waste much time in the past. 
    
    Tony
    

    The lease costs for Diesels are not any cheaper than petrol cars.
    Digital doesn't pay for fuel, we do. The business rate of 8p a mile
    could be reduced  if we all had diesels I guess but not by much.
    
    It would be a good way of P***ing off the workforce further.
    
    Royston

    I don't agree. An all diesel fleet would be a good idea in my opinion.
    
    You can get anything from a 'hot hatch' Citroen ZX TD with good enough
    acceleration to a BMW/ROVER/MERCEDEZ top end cruiser.
    
    They could simply offer a mix of diesels and petrol cars, drop the
    company mileage from 8p to 5p and let the punters decide. I would also
    imagine that we could get insurrance savings on an all diesel fleet.
    
    I did 19,500 business miles last year. Go figure

I've been introduced to one of these recently, and was not impressed. It did
not bear close comparison even to my 8 valve golf. It was OK while the 
turbo was spinning, but had poor top end power, and very weak acceleration
before the turbo cut in.

OK for motorway cruising, but not an engine for real fun driving.

All IMHO of course

Terry

    Its horses for courses.... I have a ZX TD and find it performs well,
    but conceed that its only as good as a 1600cc petrol car, all else
    being equal and I could hardly describe it as hot hatch performance.
    However the driving technique is different and that could help form a
    poor impression. 
    
    I would suggest you try one for a week to get a really valid test
    and if you have a company car this can be arranged by calling 
    Paul Dulson on 0753-822100 at Citroen UK, who were able to arrange a
    loan ZTTD for TWO weeks for me! (though I only took one weeks worth.)
    
    A diesel convert,
    Mike

    re-1
    >However the driving technique is different
    
    How is the technique different for Diesels?  
    
    Mikef

    You drive to a different fuel pump.
    
    8*) 8*)
    
    Seriously, one thing you find with a diesel is that you get full power
    from stone cold.  TD's give you a terrific torque spread - makes for a
    wonderfully flexible and relaxing-to-drive engine.  The turbocharger
    was invented specifically for the diesel engine and transforms it.  IMO
    all diesels should be turboed.
    
    Richard
    

    Re-2
    
    Petrol engines tend to operate over a wide speed range, eg 1500rpm to
    say 6000 rpm, and with reasonable torque from 2000 to 5500, and max BHP
    at the high 4500-5000 or higher. So with this wide range if you want to 
    drive the car sportingly you will tend to use the high engine speeds
    say 3000 to 6000. With a diesel the speed range is less 1000-4750 but
    gives very good torque from about 1500 or less to 3500, with max torque at
    3000ish.  But the torque drops off fairly quickly above 3500, so if you
    want to drive it "sportingly" you will tend to keep it in the max
    torque range around 2000-3500. If you use the petrol technique and use
    the top end say 3000 to max engine speed the performance will be poor,
    but the polution would be quite spectacular.
    
    So with petrol use the top end of the engine speed, with the oil burner
    keep it in the mid range. 
    
      
    

    This subject raises it's ugly head with monotonous regularity. Someone
    expounds the  advantages of Diesels, a petrol patriot then goes on at
    length  about how he can get  equal performance economy etc from his
    high performance jobby!.

Fact:
    Every manufacturer and official body recognises that diesels ARE more
    fuel  efficient, I doubt that even you could match the 112MPG measured
    (and verified  independantly by the RAC) by the AX 1.4 diesel in a long
    distance run. (not a test  track theoretical)

    Further, if the 1.8 SRi cavalier could produce such astounding milage
    over general  use, don't you think Vauxhall would be shouting it from
    the rooftop?. Crowing about  how much better it was than their own
    diesel engined equivalents?.

    It's no good comparing what you do with anyone else, you've got to
    measure like for  like. So whatever milage your getting (calculated
    whichever way you do) you will  undoubtedly get better driving a diesel
    IN THE SAME MANNER. 

    Let's get back to reality: there are some of us who think Td's are the
    best thing  since sliced bread, there are other's who'd never entertain
    the idea of driving an  oil burner and will quote all amnner of
    'statistics' to prove themselves right.

    In the end you can only take your own opinions as the judge.

Richard
    

    Richard,
    
    No need to get so upset about it. I agree with your .-1 comments, 
    and after having a 2 litre petrol BMW averaging 25-26 MPG, and the
    1.9 litre ZX TD averaging 42-43 MPG driven in the same manner I don't
    need any convincing.
    
    Bit upset that diesel is the same price as unleaded though.....
    
    Mike
    
     

    For those of you who haven't received your hardcopy of the latest car
    scheme brochure (mine's just arrived) - it is General Motors (meaning
    Vauxhall or SAAB) for the preferred range.  I'm still digesting the rest
    - but looks like no surprises.
    
    Ian             
    

>    - but looks like no surprises.


  Yup, it says the figures are on VTX, car fleet admin.....but they're not.


	It does say that you can buy a private car, Vauxhall, and will get
	free deliver, plates, road fun for a year , value 500 quid, 
	beginning sept 93

    Isn't the Cherokee Jeep a General Motors vehicle ???
    
    If so, could be a steal.!
    
    Does anybody know ?
    
    Andy

	don't know.....you might have to settle for the Frontera

	Heather

    
    Re .103
    
    What exactly does that mean???
    
    Regards martin

Jeep is owned by Chrysler.  Do you have an Cadillac dealers over there?? :-)

Dave

    re. -1 
    
    O.K, so the Jeep is Chrysler owned.
    
    We can now get them care of Rover dealers and some others in the UK.!
    
    Andy

    
>    What exactly does that mean???
 
	1. the info that the sheet says is on VTX  -  isn't.

	2. if you want to buy a new Vauxhall privately, they'll give you a deal
	where you don't have to pay 500 quid of the costs.

	Heather

    Are there any PRICES in the brochure??????

>    Are there any PRICES in the brochure??????

	No, the glossy car mags never have prices.

	Heather

No the quotes or standard car bag will go on VTX on July 1st.

NO ORDERS WILL BE TAKEN UNTIL AUGUST 1ST!

It also doesn't say what the new allowances will be though it does state that 
if your taking part of your allowance as salary this amount won't change until 
the current lease expires.

It also doesn't say how you arrange test drives as it now states you CANNOT 
recommend a garage.

Richard

    Heather, sorry i meant INTERNAL prices, like what will qualified
    car users have to pay for cars like cavs, carls, fronts etc per year?

    Re: .114 oops, notes clash

    re: <<< Note 2100.110 by SUBURB::THOMASH "The Devon Dumpling" >>>
    
    > Interestingly enough, the colour nearest to our logo isn't
    > Burgundy red, but Satin red
    
    
    I would have said Flame red was nearer the mark!!!
    
    Sharon

    
    
>    I would have said Flame red was nearer the mark!!!
 
	Well, I looked at that and didn't thinks so, however here I am
	under flourescent light.

	When I took the stuff hpome to look at, and saw it in daylight, then
	I agree.

	Heather

    No orders till August 1st!.... are car fleet on holiday in July then?
    
    
    Xtine... who was expecting to be able to order next week and take
    delivery in August...

    
    According to the cover letter "in your pack" it says "new 'car
    supplements' have now been established " , however it goes on to say
    "from 1 August 1993 the current car cost , and market supplements will
    be adjusted to reflect the new car supplement levels " .
    If they have already been established why do we have to wait until the
    1 August ?
    
    
    Bill

I doubt whether asking your boss will do any good. My boss got the same
information pack as everyone else and if therefore none the wiser about
the new scheme. Not her fault you understand.

My advice (FWIW) would be to wait until 1st August when things will hopefully
become clearer. Alternatively, collate questions from your unit and put them
to CC to avoid duplication.


	Ian

    re .121
    
    From 'THE LETTER'
    
    employees who do not use all of their supplement to lease a car, will
    also see no immediate change. The amount will continue for the
    remainder of the existing lease period. Future lease arrangements will
    be based on the new Car Supplement Levels.
    
    For those who have previously elected to take their whole supplement as
    salary, there will be no change.
    
    Finally, those below level 8, who previously had to order at least the
    minimum car, also now have the option to take some of their supplement
    as salary. (I guess that means if you get a 900cc Corsa, then the you
    pocket the difference between the base level as salary.
    
    Greg

My reading of the new manual leads me to believe the current system of 'base' 
car plus supplement will be replaced by a level based 'supplement' which is 
the whole car cost.

You'll no longer get a quote on 'the amount above base' but the price quoted 
will be the total lease cost, and yuor level allowance will be a total 
allowance. 

In each level band there will be some/several models from the GM range which 
will fit comfortably, and some that will allow some cash to spare, whilst the 
exotic 4x4 16v turbo limited slip close ratio twin cam variable manifold 
multipoint whatsists will cost you out of your basic salary.

Doesn't sound much different, but it is in fact a radical change in mindset.

numbers wise....

	OLD				NEW
						^^^^ level in the god's
							Saab CD ?
					|-----------------
             Salary			|level 10/11 band
					|		Carlton GLS
	      ------			|
		| level supplement	|		Cavalier Diplomat 
		|  8/9  1300		|		Carlton l
		|  10/11 2200 (?)	|-------------- Cavalier SRi
		|			|level 8/9 band
		| 			|		Cavalier CD
	  -------------			|		Astra GSi
		|			|		Cavalier GLS
		|			|-------------- Astra CD
		|			|		Astra GLS
		|			|		Nova GSi
		|			| 		Astra LS
		|			|		Nova ????
		|			|
		| base cost of		|
		|'free car'		|
		| (last known figure	|
		|   3400 for car	|
		|   3000 for cash)	|
		|			|
		|			|
		|			|
		|			|
--------------------------------------------------------
	CAVEAT: This is MY INTERPRETATION, not known for fact, and the 
		car's that match are an INTELIGENT (or otherwise!) GUESS.

I believe from the information given in the managers brief that the cash 
equivalents will be lower than the amalgamation of the current base and 
allowance simply to reflect the better deal that GM have offered.

However, untill the figures are released we won't know.

FLAME ON. 
It's 1st JULY, where are the figures? the glossy brochure was notably free 
from fact. My lease expires in September, I need to place an order in early 
August, and I need the numbers NOW to work out the financial impact to me.

So come on fleet, get VTX on line now!

Flame off

Richard
 

    
    Checked VTX this morning for the FY94 list ....
    
      Further to Chris Conway's mail of 15th June 1993, the Preferred Car
    List has now been deleted and no further orders will be accepted against
    it.
    
      Details of the Digital FY94 Car Scheme will be circulated to
    employees and appear on VTX at the beginning of July.
    
    The question is, when is the beginning of July ?
    
    Andy.
    
                     

    The section on Car Hire in the new Car Scheme brochure (easily mistaken
    for a glossy that you pick up from a Vauxhall dealer) gives the numbers
    for Hertz and PHH inferring that the car will be supplied by one of
    these companies. 
    
    This makes sense if you get a non GM car as Hertz or PHH would supply
    the car. This begs the question will Hertz or PHH be supplying the
    cars from the preferred list as well ? If so how does the special
    arrangements with Vauxhall work ?
    
    Royston

>You'll no longer get a quote on 'the amount above base' but the price quoted 
>will be the total lease cost, and yuor level allowance will be a total 
>allowance. 

>Doesn't sound much different, but it is in fact a radical change in mindset.

VTX used to have in it the total lease cost, the "amount above base" was a 
newish introduction.......so, back to the old mindset.


Heather

    I wouldn't mind just having the brochure and letter. I've seen the
    envelopes in which the stuff arrived, but have yet to get one.
    
    Perhaps they're trying to tell me summat,
    Angus

>    The question is, when is the beginning of July ?
    
    Sunday 4th July - Fiscal calendar
    
    Terry

    
    One thing it said at the back of the brochure under the UK car Scheme
    Policy section 3. Eligiblity is
    
    "Employee's who receive a car supplement will be EXPECTED to obtain
    a car through the Car Scheme. However, in certain circumstances where
    the provision of a car is, in the Company's opinion inappropriate, this
    requirement may be waived."
    
    Now theres some food for thought!!!!!
    
    
    Regards Martin

    RE: .126
    
    From the appliance of logic...
    
    If we do get quoted for the whole lease cost, say 3400 for a Vauxhall
    Cavalier LS.  The last page of the car scheme brochure states, 2.c "To
    ensure that the lease cost payments do not exceed 20% of an employee's
    base salary."  So a just-over midpoint level 4 on 14000 can only
    contribute 2800 to a car, which doesn't even get a Cavalier.  On the
    old quote scheme they would have to get a car for -600 !
    
    tp

    
>    "Employee's who receive a car supplement will be EXPECTED to obtain
>    a car through the Car Scheme. However, in certain circumstances where
>    the provision of a car is, in the Company's opinion inappropriate, this
>    requirement may be waived."
 

  This was introduced with the VAT change, a few years ago, it is not new.   


	Heather  

    
>    If we do get quoted for the whole lease cost, say 3400 for a Vauxhall
>    Cavalier LS.  The last page of the car scheme brochure states, 2.c "To
>    ensure that the lease cost payments do not exceed 20% of an employee's
>    base salary."  So a just-over midpoint level 4 on 14000 can only
>    contribute 2800 to a car, which doesn't even get a Cavalier.  On the
>    old quote scheme they would have to get a car for -600 !
 
	This has been in effect for at least 8 years that I know of, the 
	manager has to approve the "over 20%"

	Heather

  I'm beginning to wonder how well the car scheme was actually understood.


  	Heather - who investigated it, continues to monitor changes, and 
		  keeps out!

    Yes but the point I was making was that the assumptions in the previous
    note are not held out by the statement about the 20% because it doesn't
    make sense that lower paid employees can't even afford the standard car
    without manager approval.
    
    On a lighter note I think the glossy is impressive but not totally
    professional; 2 PCL, "All cars on the PCL will run on unleaded or diesel
    fuel".  So... I can choose the cheapest pump at the station to fill up
    from ?  I can use diesel to get more mpg or petrol if I want to go
    fast.  That's quite a good option ;-)
    
    tp

re .129, Heather...
>> VTX used to have in it the total lease cost, the "amount above base" was a 
>> newish introduction.......so, back to the old mindset.

Maybe new on VTX, but even back in 1985 when I had my first car there was the 
allowance above base, and lease cost above base. So it's not new

Richard

Another point to note is that your all talking about the price of cars AS ON 
THE EXTINCT SCHEME. The costs are expected to be considerably cheaper, 
therefore what you regard as a base car will also be cheaper.

Also, following on from my assertions as to the price within band, there WON'T 
be a 'base' car, but cars in each job scale band  that are cheaper, the norm, 
and more expensive. 

This is what I keep referring to as a change of mindset, forget current 
prices, forget base cars, think your allowance VS the full scale of GM car 
prices.

Oh, and I think that all other's even those that WERE 'base' will now be a lot 
more expensive.

PPS, the brochure does mention the insurance contribution, so it's still 
there, wrapped up in the price.

richard

Trev,

Read the sentence again - it says "or" not "and". And the 20%
does refer to the driver price, not the total cost.

Ian

    Of course it says 'or', if it said 'and' that'd mean we'd have to queue
    for the unleaded pump and half fill up then queue at the diesel pump to
    fill up.    And... we don't know whether the 'lease cost payment'
    includes the supplement or not, do we ?

    ho hum, my lease expires ummmm....July 1st.
    
    Guess I've got my car for a bit longer than expected, like another 3
    months I guess.
    
    

>    Yes but the point I was making was that the assumptions in the previous
>    note are not held out by the statement about the 20% because it doesn't
>    make sense that lower paid employees can't even afford the standard car
>    without manager approval.
 
	This has always been the case.

	Personally I think it does make sense, however that's not the point,
	it's something that has always been in the scheme, why bring it
	up now? 

	Heather

    I was always under the impression that the 20% was the extra
    contribution you could add on top of your car allowance i.e
    the driver price.
    
    
    Martin

    >I was always under the impression that the 20% was the extra
    >    contribution you could add on top of your car allowance i.e
    >    the driver price.
       
    Yes it was.  Otherwise I would never have been able to have the cars I
    did.  The point I was making... was that if that previous note was true
    (er .126 or thereabouts) and the bit about 20% was true, then people on
    lower salaries wouldn't be able to have the old 'base' car without
    their manager's consent..oh what's the use, nobody understands me :-)

    These are the actual words taken from the 1988 car scheme stuff......



2.  You may not contribute more than 20% of your basic salary towards 
    the provision of a car.  If you currently contribute more than 
    20%, you will be required to revert to this figure when the 
    vehicle is due for replacement.



	Heather

	Opps, 148 and 149 were mine, I just put them together...then 150
	slipped in before I put in my change

	Heather

    
    	Can anyone shed any light on where the 26 mill., figure comes from?
    
    	4000 cars at a lease cost of 3400 p.a. = 	13.6mill
    	4000 cars have 2 bumps a year @500     =	 2.0mill 
    	Insurance 			       =	 1.0mill
    	6 administrators @50,000 p.a.          =	 0.3mill
    
    							---------
    							16.9mill
    
    	these figures are all guesses of course, but they cant be far
    wrong. can they?
    	Just a thought, glad i've never been in the scheme!
    
    	Bill
    

    Maybe its a case of creative accounting to help offset TAX, rather than
    the real cost, but there is a big difference between the estimated 
    figure of 16.9M and the 26M management claim. So where does this 9M go?
    
    Does it really cost 26,000,000/4,000 = 6500pounds per year per car for
    a nominal 12,000 pound car?  It does appear excessive.
    
    Mike

    Firstly the 26mill has been around as the cost for a few years - I
    suspect it is legend rather than fact. I also suspect it dates from the
    time of 4,500 cars. If we are now at 4,500 employees I find it hard to
    believe that we have more than 3,500 cars - I realise this just makes
    the numbers worse.
    
    I'd like to see the current cost set out and how the saving of 5 mill
    per annum is to be achieved. I doubt I'll see it because that would
    mean the "faceless ones" could actually be measured. CC may shake them.
    
    Andrew

             NEWSFLASH

********************************IMPORTANT************************************
DETAILS OF THE DIGITAL FY94 CAR SCHEME ARE NOW BEING CIRCULATED TO ALL
EMPLOYEES.  THE PREFERRED CAR LIST AND PRICES WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE UNTIL
MID-JULY.

NO NEW QUOTES OR ORDERS WILL BE PROCESSED UNTIL 1ST AUGUST ONWARDS.  THOSE
QUOTES AND ORDERS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN ACKNOWLEDGED WILL BE HONOURED AND
WILL BE BASED ON THE DIGITAL FY93 CAR SCHEME DRIVER PRICES AND SUPPLEMENTS.
********************************IMPORTANT************************************
                                           

	The question is why does the memo in the "Digital Car Scheme" envolope
	dated 28th June, imply the Prefered Car List would be available on 1st
	July when the scheme becomes effective, VTX yesterday stated the list
	would be available at the beginning of July and today state mid-July.

	How can so much change over five days ?

Andy.

PS: This is a perfect example IMHO of what is wrong with the company as a whole.
    If we treat real customers like this no wonder they are going elsewhere.

    VTX menu system also shows:
    
    		1.  Ex-Lease cars for sale
    		2.  Recent Leasing Quotes
    
    I thought that the letter said only the driver can buy the car.... so
    what is the point of 1.??
    
    I am pleased about 2., though.... that is something sorely missed
    during the last 12 months.

>    	Can anyone shed any light on where the 26 mill., figure comes from?
    
>    	4000 cars at a lease cost of 3400 p.a. = 	13.6mill
>    	4000 cars have 2 bumps a year @500     =	 2.0mill 
>    	Insurance 			       =	 1.0mill
>    	6 administrators @50,000 p.a.          =	 0.3mill
>    
>    							---------
>    							16.9mill
 
	Well, I know of cars that have had 13,000 quids worth of repairs
	done...........I also know of Cosworths that have had to have 
	practically everything but the body relaced, after being knicked and
	stripped.

	Also, I had one bump in my car - I was rear-ended when I stopped, and 
	she didn't - my car, so I know the costs to repair my car..........
	1,300 quid....they also have paid for my physio, prescriptions,
	excess, and we are now debating whiplash compensation.
	The lady who rear-ended me - well, it would have needed new radiator,
	bonet, side  panels........her car was a company car.
	I would think that this "bump" would cost their insurers in excess of 
	5,000 at the end of the day.

	I would think that the repairs here is WAAAAAAAAy under.

	Neither have you included the extra supplements for levels.

	Or the electronic systems they use (support and maintenence) between
	DEC and PHH/Hertz, and the internal ones.
	or the phone bills
	or someone apart from the administrators to manage/negotiate
	or the lease cars we have to pick up the tab for for leavers, or 
	maternity breaks who don't take cars............or the 20-30% discounts
	we fund for takeovers

	Or the extra we pay when we overrun the miles/lease

	Or keeping VTX up-to-date  :-)

	Heather
	

    
    	eh,
    	That's why everybody pays insurance, Digital only picks up the
    first 500 quid. So it doesn't matter what other costs are involved and
    that's the point.
    
    	Everything is based around 3400, even a level 12 with a Carlos
    Fandango "opposite sex genital attractor" . Level 8 and above are on a
    different scale and I think it's 5000, so assuming that we have 2000
    drivers on that scale, that would cost 3,000,000.
    
    So are you saying it costs 8 mill, to keep records and make phone
    calls?
    
    Bill

>    	eh,
>    	That's why everybody pays insurance, Digital only picks up the
>    first 500 quid. So it doesn't matter what other costs are involved and
>    that's the point.
 
	Wrong, Digital pays it all - some may come out of a central point,
	some may come out of an individual cost centre, but at the end of the 
	day, Digital self insures.
   
 >   	Everything is based around 3400, even a level 12 with a Carlos
 >   Fandango "opposite sex genital attracto Level 8 and above are on a
 >   different scale and I think it's 5000, so assuming that we have 2000
 >   drivers on that scale, that would cost 3,000,000.
  
	wrong again, level 7 and below is an amount I can't remember, if you 
	need the car for the job, level 8 is 3,400, 9-10 is 4,600 level 12 is 
	5,200 above level 12 is some higher amount again that I've forgotten.

	Heather

    
    	Heather i can't be bothered arguing! But what you say about the
    costs per  level is not correct.
    
    	Digital self insures? Nonsense. If you mean Third Party only, then
    we must be mad to let the boy racers loose with the four wheel
    skateboards.
    
    	At the end of the day, if those in the know don't publish the
    figures we could speculate all day. I simply don't believe it.

re.164:

Laurie, maybe CC has a different ideas about who the right people are!

Dave (blimey, I'm still here)

    Bill, just ask our manager how much she's had to pay out for my stolen
    car, a stolen Golf Gti, a bent MR2...  It makes sense for us to have
    3rd party if it works out being cheaper just to pay for mending cars
    bent by ourselves.  It also puts more pressure on the manager's to not
    let the proven bad drivers have high risk cars (or even a Digital car
    at all), and it does happen.
    
    tp

    
    	well that's the answer then isn't it. It's costing Digital nine
    million a year in theft and prangs.
    
    Maybe we're getting nearer the truth now. So who wants to volunteer the
    true figure?

    Something that puzzles me in the new scheme...
    
    Why is there a PCL at all? Secondly which GM cars are on it? Suppose
    the only cars on the PCL are Cavaliers and Astras, everything else is
    special?
    One of the big hassles with the old PCL was that as interest rates, car
    prices, car tax all fell over the year the PCL prices were overpriced.
    Won't the same thing happen? I know all will be revealed in "mid-July"
    but I was just wondering.
    
    Andrew

    re .171
    
    From the manual on supplements:
    
    (every year) Prices to the standard car are then obtained from the
    supplier. An inflation factor is then applied..to cover estimated
    increases in leasing costs over the following 12 month period...
    
    (and now the interesting bit)
    
    ....Finally an allowance is then added to reflect competitive practise
    of providing fuel for personal, social and domestic use. This final
    figure then establishes the supplement for each band
    

re.168:

I never did understand why the Cavalier SRi was a level 8/9 car and the CDi was
a level 10/11 car when the SRi was always more expensive on the scheme than the
CDi.

Dave.

    Does anyone know what rules will apply under the new scheme as to who
    actually gets a car/allowance?  There used to be some milage criteria
    for L7 and below, but I can't remember what it was.
    
    Ta
    
    Mikef

for the term of their exisiting lease only. The new lease will be under the 
new terms. 

From the document that should be right written by the man that should know.

Nope,

Chris specifically said that unless you opt out, it will remain the same!!!!!

mb

    Martin,
    
    I'm afraid you and Chris must have it wrong.
    
    The letter says:
    
    "Future lease arrangements will be based on the new Car Supplements"
    
    I'll be happy to discuss this over a pint next week ;^)
    
    Greg

>Chris also said that after extensive calculations, it is STILL most cost
>effective to remain IN the car scheme, rather than opt out!

	i WONDER IF i SHOULD SEND HIM MY CALACULATI0NS.....Heather

Greg,

what, only one pint?

Yup, it appears that there is a mis-match between "the letter" and "the Boss"!

As was mentioned in UK Digital only moments ago ...

"This looks like a pay cut to me"!

You would think that as a morale booster, Digital UK could pass on a little
of the savings to the employee, as in non-monetary terms we are getting
squeezed.

mb

	I would think, with thendeal, then the cars should be that much less,
	so you wouldn't be worse off.......unless the deal isn't really a deal
	after all.

	Heather

    
    	re.173 so that means the car scheme actually costs 35 mill??
    	That's even less believable.
    
    	So come on finance print the figures!

    
    I don't believe that when the new company car tax scheme comes into
    operation, anyone doing less than 2.5k will be better off.
    
    Richard

>Do the sums, work out what it *really* costs *you*, get an exchange and mart, buy a bike
>and cycle to work :-)

	I've done the sums....for a 2.0L new car every 3 years, they're posted 
	here somewhere, that's why I take the money.

	Also, having just had to claim via my legal protection, I am very very 
	pleased I am not coverd by Digital, as I would not have been able to
	claim for a lot of the things I had to fork out for.

	Like appliances, prescription charges, and whiplash injury

	Heather

    Peter, this is very interesting. Obviously bad news for level 8's that
    have a standard car as they will be losing out. This would indicate
    that higher value Vauxhalls (ie Calibras, Astra GSi's) will have a
    cheaper driver price than before.
    
    Royston
    
    

	Really ? Maybe this is a well kept secret? well, from my manager anyway.


	Heather

    - .199 - Your Manager (assuming she/he is in the scheme) receives an
    insurance package every start of fiscal which reminds drivers of this
    and the other services available from insurance.
    
    Doug

    
    I cannot see where 5,000,000 savings are coming from, I would also like
    to see where the current 26,000,000 goes, why have we seen no official
    figures released, this all sounds to me like savings on paper rather
    than real savings.
    It's a bit like the 40 & 50% savings on tyres quoted, but in fact in
    many cases it is actully cheaper to shop around find special offers
    etc. and buy cash....an example on a ford Escort at a previous co. we
    had instructions to use Joe bloggs tyres, so I did four new tyres
    fitted and I asked how much is that going to cost them, I was told #160
    they work out #40 each at the discount we offer you, but if you want
    any for yourself they are on special at #25 each but don't tell your
    boss.........now I make that a cost of #15 a tyre yet the accountants
    insist it was a 40% saving!......some people just can't see further
    than the end of their noses can they!
    
    Now back to the new car scheme, if we used to give a 1300 pounds
    supplement for an SRI (which was available for 800, so the holder had
    his SRI plus 500 quid) and we now negotiate getting one for 600 quid
    and drop the suplement to 600 quid that is a saving to the co. of 700
    per level 8, now 500 quid is effectively a paycut to the supplement
    holder and the real saving is 200 quid. Now try explaining that to an
    accountant to an accountant the saving is 700 quid per level 8 car, and
    the driver still has the same car so what's he got to complain about?
    
    In summary the major saving will be in pay cuts.
    
    But then again all salary structures are to be re-evaluted, so you
    might get the 500quid back ......and pigs might fly!
    
    Richard

>    I know we all need hardcopy policy documents and the policy and
>    guidelines is very high quality indeed. However, I would have preferred
>    a photocopy to show that the company is really trying to save bucks.
>    


bulk order printing works out cheaper than photcopying (half priceI remember)

$ stick tongue/in=cheek/firmly

maybe we need a hardcopy for "evidence" are photocopies allowed in court as
evidence?

but why didn't they go the whole hog - why not use e-mail or VTX or bookreader
(worldview) or CDA or Notes etc etc


:-)

Paul

I don't think anyone will get a pay cut. My understanding
is that existing leases, and existing opter-outers will
see no change. New leases will be under the new guidelines
and new company car qualifiers will get the new reduced 
figure.

That's how I read the bold section on the reverse of the 
letter.



	Ian

re .203;

>I don't think anyone will get a pay cut. My understanding
>is that existing leases, and existing opter-outers will
>see no change. New leases will be under the new guidelines
>and new company car qualifiers will get the new reduced 
>figure.

>That's how I read the bold section on the reverse of the 
>letter.


Section 2) says "Those employees  ... who do not use all of their supplement
... will also see no immediate change. .... Again, future lease arrangements
will be based on the new Car Supplement levels"

So, you will not see a change until you replace your car. When you do,
the salary reduction takes effect. This has been confirmed to me by Human
Resources.

Peter.

  Having read the glossy a number of times, and read this string of notes, I am
of the opinion that there are only 2 significant changes.

1. The preferred supplier stuff, with (maybe) their cars significantly cheaper
    than cars from other suppliers.

2. All qualified users get a cash car supplement. How much money this is depends 
    on job level. How much money the individual chooses to spend on a lease car 
    is, as always, down to that person.

The major difference I see, is that before this change, for someone level 7 or 
below there was NO advantage in taking a cheap car. 

e.g. (ficticious figures to illustrate what was wrong before!)

	A Trabant Rolls-canardly. 
	Level 7 or below	Free
	Level 8 or above	  200 pounds.

	A Renough Poket-roket
	Level 7 or below	   10 pounds
	Level 8 or above	3,010 pounds

In effect, the Level 7 or below was discouraged from taking a cheap car, because
doing so cost no less than something MUCH more expensive.

On the new scheme, EVERYONE gets the same deal, just that the lower grades can
now choose a cheap car and pocket the surplus supplement, whereas before the 
change they could NOT do so.

My only nagging doubt is this, the glossy says that those people who (like me)
take ALL of the supplement as salary, and do not have a lease car at all, will
see no change. But, since everyone who DOES take a car will see a change in the 
value of their supplement at the end of their current lease, I wonder just how 
long it will be before those without a car also see their supplement eroded.

As far as lease car vs cash is concerned, my own calculations agree with CC's 
claim that it is cheaper to have a lease car, BUT, this is true ONLY if :-
1. You intend to replace the car with new every 3 years.
2. The car you want is on the list at a price you can afford.

For myself, neither is true. I want a relatively high value car, and am quite 
willing to change a second-hand model every 4 or 5 years. I cannot afford to 
have a new one every 3 years. 

	John Travell.

>My only nagging doubt is this, the glossy says that those people who (like me)
>take ALL of the supplement as salary, and do not have a lease car at all, will
>see no change. But, since everyone who DOES take a car will see a change in the 
>value of their supplement at the end of their current lease, I wonder just how 
>long it will be before those without a car also see their supplement eroded.

	I expect it to be erroded, it was with the 495 VAT, and with the next
	400 increases the car-takers got, that the cash people didn't.

>As far as lease car vs cash is concerned, my own calculations agree with CC's 
>claim that it is cheaper to have a lease car, BUT, this is true ONLY if :-
>1. You intend to replace the car with new every 3 years.
>2. The car you want is on the list at a price you can afford.

 I get a new car every 3 years, I can afford the lease - I don't because I can
 do it cheaper outside of the scheme because I just don't do many miles, and 
 I'm a good insurance risk.

 Heather

My calculations were based on my NOT including ANY capital at all in the purchase
of a car, then selling it after 3 years. It worked out that the cash supplement 
was not sufficient to do this, and over the 3 years I would have run up an 
overdraft almost exactly equal to the residual value in the car. Leaving me in a 
position of: I win IF the car is in great shape, to get a good selling price,
	     I lose if anything adversly affects the car's resale value.

BUT... All of this ONLY applied IF I was considering exactly the same car, 
either through the lease or not, and borrowing the WHOLE purchase price of the 
car to be repaid over 3 years.
If I choose a second-hand car, or a cheaper car than I would have had on the 
scheme, I can save a packet.

For myself. I want an ESPACE. (So I can put ALL of my Windsurf gear INSIDE!)
On the scheme, I am restricted to a NEW vehicle every 3 years. VERY expensive. 
OFF the scheme, I can buy a 6 year old motor, then in 2 or 3 years buy a 5 y.o
and so-on. Eventually, I will have a saleable asset, ON the scheme this would 
NEVER have occurred.

	JT:

	I wonder why you have to have a new car every 3 years?

	The reason I ask is because mine is now 3 years old, and I have always
	replaced after 3 years before.
	I have the cash to do it (good old car scheme)........but I'm debating
	with myself for the last few months, why I really need to trade in a 
	car with 36,000 miles on the clock, that is going very well.


	Oh well, it's a nice decision to have to make, I just wondered about the
	rigid 3 years.

	Heather
	

    Doug,
    
    >>- .199 - Your Manager (assuming she/he is in the scheme) receives an
    >>insurance package every start of fiscal which reminds drivers of this
    >>and the other services available from insurance.
    
    
    My manager has not heard of any such package. Any idea where/who I
    should contact to get one for our office?
    
    Cheers,
    
    Greg
    

    Heather, the three years could be something to do with the MOT test.
    
    Laurie.

>    Heather, the three years could be something to do with the MOT test.
    
	Maybe, but the MOT is pretty basic safety stuff, I had mine done with 
	no problem.

	If it's only the MOT, then this isn't an issue for me, maybe I should 
	keep it longer.

	Heather	    

    Re - .209
    
    That reply should perhaps have said that every employee whose personnel
    record say "Lease Car = Y" receives, at the beginning of each fiscal a
    package from the insurance group containing
    
    1)	New fiscal Motor Insurance Cerificate
    2)	Letter of Authority to take the vehicle abroad
    3)	Info sheet about accident reporting, repairs, windscreens etc
    4)	Windscreen repair cards (like credit cards telling you who to
    contact)
    5)	European Accident Statements - these are in short supply this year
    and will be omitted.
    
    The team are currently enveloping 4,000 of these and they are being
    distributed through the internal mail system - they are personally
    addressed to you by name, badge and last recorded mailstop on the
    personnel system.
    
    If you haven't got yours yet, be patient, you are insured and they are
    on their way.  The delay this year is a result of me taking the
    insurance company negotiations to the wire to get the right price.
    
    Doug

    re .212
    
    But Doug, that package that I'll get doesn't say anything about this
    legal aid that I could be entitled too if I have an accident etc.
    
    Greg

>	I wonder why you have to have a new car every 3 years?
>
>	The reason I ask is because mine is now 3 years old, and I have always
>	replaced after 3 years before.
    
    Heather, some advice says change cars when they are 2 or 4 years
    old.  This is based upon money that needs spending _on average_ on
    cars.  At around 3 years (in general), you'll need new tyres and
    exhaust, so either sell before you replace these, or derive some benefit 
    from the money spent.
    
    I'd have thought 2 years would be very heavy on depreciation, though
    this will depend on mileage.  Maybe keep your car until it's 4 years
    old.

>    Heather, some advice says change cars when they are 2 or 4 years
>    old.  This is based upon money that needs spending _on average_ on
>    cars.  At around 3 years (in general), you'll need new tyres and
>    exhaust, so either sell before you replace these, or derive some benefit 
>    from the money spent.
 
	I had new front tyres at 2 years, and a new exhaust then too

	However, I was rear-ended in Feb, and had the exhaust replaced then
	on the insurance.

	I was thinking, from a depreciation standpoint, 4 years will be quite
	a lot better than 3, and I would still have less than 45,000 on the 
	clock.

	If I take too long deciding, it will be 4 years anyway!!!!!!

	Heather

	I was please to see when searching through the internal mail trays at 
	the front of my bay in DECpark, two of those large envelopes, full of
	expensive glossy's (and little real substance) introducing the new 
	Digital car scheme.

	The problem is one was to somebody who has right-sized and left last
	month, the second was to somebody I know takes the money.

	IMHO it is bad enough that we have wasted all this money on these useless
	pieces of rubbish let alone sending them to people who don't care or
	cannot care about the contents !!

Andy.

    	I think it'd be an error not to send the details to people who are
    taking the money, as it doesn't mean they can't take the car.

    They were sent to everyone weren't they?  I got one, and I get no
    allowance or car or anything.  
    
    Mikef

    Slight change of tac.. but I thought you may be interested.  There's a
    documentary on channel 4 tommorow night (9ish) about G.M. and the
    effects that laying off hundreds of workers has had in the States and
    the reluctance of the manager to talk about it.

>	IMHO it is bad enough that we have wasted all this money on these useless
>	pieces of rubbish let alone sending them to people who don't care or
>	cannot care about the contents !!

	Andy,

	If you don't want one, then tell the people who sent it, I am pleased I
	have one, It directly effects me, and I don't have a car.

	Heather

    Back to .209/.212/.213 - I quote...
    
    "IMPORTANT INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR LEASE CAR INSURANCE"
    
    .......
    "We handle all claims for you.  Correspondence, summonses etc. should be 
    sent to us @REO unanswered.  Legal representation for proceedings and 
    injury claims arising from car accidents is normally available to you 
    at no cost."
    
    Doug

>    "We handle all claims for you.  Correspondence, summonses etc. should be 
>    sent to us @REO unanswered.  Legal representation for proceedings and 
>    injury claims arising from car accidents is normally available to you 
>    at no cost."

	Doug, maybe you should change VTX, because your words above are much 
	clearer than those in VTX;

  	"Legal representation in cases arising from car accidents is normally 
	available to you at no cost through us."
    
	Which I didn't read as leagal support for my own personal injury, but
	for protection should the other driver sue.


	Heather

As far as I understand it, the Digital car scheme is
available to all employees regardless of whether they 
get the supplement. At least that's how it used to be.
You could spend a few thousand quid on your own lease, 
but do it through car fleet. Has this changed?

I think it was a good idea to send the car information 
to everyone (OK, maybe not rightsized people). People 
complain when they don't get information, and people
complain when they do!


	Ian

	Yup, that's true, anyone can join the car scheme, so the changes could
	affect your decsion to stay out, or stay in.

	Heather

    The Digital Vauxhall Roadshow will be at:
    
    DECpark 	13 to 16 July inc.
    Warrington	21 to 23 July inc.
    Solent	26 to 28 July inc.
    Crescent	29 & 30 July 
    
    There will be a good selection of cars from the Vauxhall range to look
    at and test drive with Vauxhall staff on hand to assist.
    
    We have selected these locations based on driver numbers in these areas
    and the current availability of cars, and the Vauxhall caravan etc.  I
    hope we will be able to go to other locations later this quarter.
    
    CarFleet Admin are currently sorting through approx. 400 car prices and
    preparing these for VTX in an accurate format for publication as soon
    as possible.
    
    Doug

    The letter from Craig Johnston said that we will be able to order
    metallic paint at no extra cost.
    
    I wonder if this includes 'Pearlescent' colours as well?
    
    Ian

    Free pearlescent - YES
    
    doug

    How will cars for takeover (where the original lease price was set
    under the old scheme) be priced?  The changes to the scheme mean that
    the full price for a given car would go up, although this would be
    offset by the discount for taking over someone else's lease.
    
    On the one hand, leases for takeover might not look attractive enough
    to consider; on the other hand, it might be the last chance to obtain a
    non-Vauxhall at a half-decent price on the scheme.
    
    Anyone planning to give up a Xantia turbo-diesel in November let me
    know now!
    
    Ian 
    Ian
    

When the lease costs are put onto VTX, it would be
helpful if the taxable value (from next tax year) could
be included as well, to save everyone working them out
individually.

This is yet another factor in determining the real
cost of using the car scheme.


Ian.

    
    
    One thing I noticed, that I haven't seen anybody else pick up on is
    that to get the discounts proposed 70% of the fleet will have to be GM
    at the moment 30% of the fleet is GM.
    THerefore if we pay the extra and exercise our right to a none-GM car
    and have the cars we want at a higher price, the company will not save
    it's 5 mil. (a figure which has still not been explained) 
    So, we could end up with for instance...
    
        30% of drivers in the GM car they wanted anyway at a reduced cost
        20% of drivers in GM's they don't want...to save money
        50% (majority) in cars they want at a higher price
    
    AND STILL NOT MAKE THE 5,000,000 savings
    
    If 30% of the fleet is GM that means 70% of drivers given the choice
    don't want a GM car that is a clear majority by anybody's standard!
    
    Richard
    
    P.s. I don't even have the option to opt. out a local management
    decision at our office says you can't.
    
    PPS. If they really want to save money, and don't care what drivers
    think why not issue us with Lada's, they are excellent value and I'm
    sure they could make excellent savings even though the residual values
    are low, also the income tax to the driver would be much lower.
    
    This is a serious constructive comment, my wife has a 1.3L cat SAMARA
    3dr hatch and I think I would be just as happy with a 1.5GL saloon
    SAMARA as a 1.6l Cavalier at approx half the capital cost saving me
    lots on my income tax.

> P.s. I don't even have the option to opt. out a local management
>    decision at our office says you can't.

Is that supported by your local HR management? It seems to me that a "local
management decision" without the supporting business argument isn't worth the
email it appears on. I'd challenge it.

Dave.

    re .231
    
    You may be right that if we don't achieve the 70% figure we don't
    achieve the deal. What I think will happen is that 5Mill will have
    passed from Digital to the employees so Digital saves 5Mill and we pay
    it.
    
    Make of it what you will.
    
    Andrew

    
    >> The Digital Vauxhall Roadshow will be at:
    
    >> DECpark     13 to 16 July inc.
    
    Can somebody give us an idea of what the roadshow is like ??
    Is it allday , 9-5 ??
    
    Yes I know the blurb, but what is the reality :-)
    
    Tom   @NEW

	At 8.30 this morning half of one bay was coned off (one of the most
	popular parking bays) and there was a white caravan, a white corsa, 
	and three people there.

	Heather

Did you get to test drive the caravan?

 A friend was telling me about an article in the daily mail a few
 days ago, it was about some companies saving employee and company 
 expenditure by issueing vouchers to buy their lease cars??
 He couldn't give me much info, but it was something along the lines
 of substantial tax savings?? Did anyone else see it or know about??

 Stewart.

Standard government issue beer vouchers will do me fine, thank you very much.
I don't care for the idea of buying a lease car though.

Dave.

    I've only been told this second hand so the details are sketchy.
    
    There is a company which instead of giving its employees company cars
    or a supplement gives them 'car' vouchers on a monthly basis. The      
    employees take the vouchers to companies like 'Hertz' and use them
    'like money' for lease cars; naturally they contract to take a lease
    car for X years for Y per month.
    
    The reason for the vouchers is that there is no National Insurance or
    VAT to be paid on them by companies. So its cheaper for the companies
    concerned. The employee has to pay tax on the vouchers, but doesn't get
    stung for the company car tax.
    
    This is wot I was told,
    Angus

    
    Simular thing can occur with Bonus payments, if you get paid in gold
    bullion there's no tax payable. Its all a tax dodge. Now anyone care 
    to buy some very thin gold leaf ;-0

	Yup, I read the article (I would, wouldn't I?)
	
	The tax dodge is the company NI. Digital don't pay the VAT (since 88)

	However, the vouchers are taxed identically to money......ie as part
	of your salary, at whatever your higher rate is.

	So, for an employee of Digital, there would be no difference in value
	to taking the money as salary (as we do today) or vouchers.....except
	that the vouchers can only be used for leasing a car.

	It may be more beneficial for the company, it would depend on the
	exact deal done with the leasing company that exchanges the vouchers.

	Which reminds me, I presume part of the 26m also includes the company 
	NI charges.

	Heather

Martin,
	I think you are spot on. You either take less cash or a smaller cheaper
car. It's a bad reflection on our management, that they impose such a
compensation reduction on an already demoralised employee population after three
years of redundancies and virtual pay freezes. In other words, the beatings will
continue until morale improves.

Dave.

	I have no idea why this comes as a surprise.

	Personnel have been saying that the people who take the cars are 
	overcompensated for a long time (and those who take the cash, less
	overcompensated).

	What they are doing is getting back some of that overcompensation.

	I think they hoped infation would help them address the differences,
	however, with the low inflation, and car purchase tax removal, this
	has not helped the gap lessen.

	I tried to tackle this when the writing went on the wall in 88, and 
	again with the cancellation of the increase from 3,000 to 3,400 but 
	no-one seemed interested. I think it's a bit late now.

	As the car lease increases, I expect people who have the cash won't 
	see any of that either - as they will be "overcompensated", and I expect
	this to errode to the value of the lease cars over time too.

	I reconciled myself to this two years ago.

	I am watching with interest to the cash and car over the next couple
	of years, because it may start to be worthwile me joining the scheme 
	for the first time ever.

	Heather

 Re:2100.246

 We are not doing very well, I suppose we shouldn't been surprised
 that we over compensated on:

 PEOPLE
 BUILDINGS
 WAGES
 
 and now the CAR SCHEME.

 Stew.

    But I've just seen a lovely purple Corsa, just the thing to save you
    some money.....
    
    :^)

	Well, there were vauxhall cars in most of the baskets last time,

	they were

	Vauxhall Cavalier  1.6l		less than 8

	Vauxhall Cavalier 2.0 SRI	levels 8/9
	
	Vauxhall Cavalier 2.0GLI	levels 10/11
	................. 2.0CDI


	12+ didn't have a Vauxhall, SAAB CD XS 2.0I
			            Rover 820 SI
				    Ford Grenada 2.0 I Ghia
				    BMW 320 I SE
				    Audin 100 2.0 E

	So I suppose it should be easy enough to see which ones are fairly
	similar, and should come out at the standard level.
				  
	Heather

How much is the CDi list?

Cheers,
Dave.

 They mean overpaid, so they are going to cut our pay.
Compensation ... compensate for what?
I get paid not compensated. I need compensation for
acts of gross negligence, I get paid for working, 
part of the pay is the car. This was made clear when
I joined.
	We dont need euphemisms as smoke screens

		Clear Concise speech

				Derek 

    Just out of interest are "management" still saying this is NOT a pay
    cut???
    
    
    
    Xtine

	Well, it's not a pay cut for me

	....I've been less overcompensated for ages      :-)


	Heather

    The guy in the Vauxhall caravan in the car park here tells me neither
    the Carlton estate or the Frontera has an extra seats option. No go
    with Saab either I reckon. 
    
    Are there any MPV or 6+ seater vehicles in the wider GM range we could 
    ask Doug to consider including, otherwise those of us with more than 
    our fair share of offspring (I know it's self inflicted!!) will be 
    looking outside the new preferred list at a comparatively higher price.
    
    Nick                                 

    Going by the prices for the LX (LS?) and SRi mentioned in .242
    its interesting that they are both exactly 26% of the list price.
    
    If this is the case then these figures may be of interest based on
    this assumption (it doesn't include any insurance loading) -
    
    Model			list    lease cost/driver cost
    -----                       ----    ----------------------
    
    Astra 2.0 SRi 4dr           13,045        3390/441
    
    Astra 2.0 SRi 3dr	        12,505        3251/301
    
    Astra 2.0 GSi               15,320        3983/1033
    
    Calibra 2.0i                15,855        4122/1172
    
    Calibra 16v                 17,615        4579/1629
    
    Saab 900i 3dr               13,995        3638/688
    
    Saab 900i SE 5dr            16,795        4366/1416
    
    

Thanks Roy, but I think I'll wait till the list comes out
rather than spend hours speculating.


	Ian

re.259:

Ian, if you are not happy about the way these changes have been communicated,
then just say so.

Dave.

Roy,

Interesting list, but I really believe we have to get out of the mindset of
lease cost/driver cost. From now on all indications are there will be only  
lease cost vs lease allowance.
e.g.						level 7		level 8
				lease cost 	lease 		lease 
						allowance.	allowance
Astra 2.0 SRi 4dr 13,045	3390		2950		3560


Richard

re .260

Sorry? OK I'm not happy with the communication, but we have been 
advised that the figures will be published shortly. I fail to see
why people need to spend hours and hours of their time working out
figures which are likely to be totally irrelevant when the list is
published.

That's all!


Ian

re.262:

I misunderstood, I thought you were pointing out that people were worried
enough about the changes to spend hours and hours trying to work out the impact
and this could all have been avoided if the correct level of detail had been
used in the official communications.

Dave.

    Prices were up on VTX at 5:45pm Thursday 15 July.
    
    Doug

    Where/when can we expect to see prices for extras/accessories?
    
    Ian
    

The Corsa GSi list price is about the same as the Nova GSi list price, yet the 
price on the scheme is 800 pounds more.

Go figure.

    Note also that the prices on VTX are for Vauxhall's 1994 models BUT the
    Vauxhall road show at DEC Park has 1993 models and brochures.

    What's the point of test driving "last year's" models when there are
    significant changes just round the corner.

    When does the 1994 range come into effect?

    Martin

as a colleague of mine pointed out to me, Vauxhall change their specs
quire regularly.

The Cavalier LS has had the electric front windows deleted for example.

Peter.

    Martin,Where did you get the 94 specs from?.
    
    Richard

    Just read the Car List on VTX....
    
    FLAME_ON
    
    Not just sh***y Vauxhalls, they cost a fortune!
    
    Has everyone gone mad - I thought it was going to be a better deal, for
    the employees _and_ the Company!
    
    FLAME_OFF
    
    Rupert  

re .274;

look on the bright side - at least you can get an Astra CD without a pay cut;
I'm looking at a Corsa GLS!

Peter.

    Re: .272 >> Where did you get the 94 specs from?
    
    Page 1 of the VTX intro to the new prices:
    
     "The Preferred Car List quotes for Vauxhall are based on their 1994
      model range"
    
    Martin.
     

    
    Well.....I can only assume that everyone has been stunned into silence
    by the prices on VTX. Come on chaps and chapesses it looks like were
    loosing about 500-1000 pounds a year out of our pay packets which used
    to be called a pay cut but is now probably called 'renumeration
    downsizing'. 
    
    Thats it, I'm now going to go into a state of shocked silence like
    everyone else.
    
    							G.P
    

	Aren't there insurance loading that could make a big
	different in the lease cost of two "similar" list price
	cars.

	Graham

    Well, can I just say it is refreshing to see that the company is
    penalising ALL grades. 
    
    ALL grades can now expect a REAL pay-cut with the prices just
    announced. .274 serves to illustrate this.
    
    I have a ZX 16V which currently costs me 540. If I want a roughly
    equivalent (Astra GSi 16V) it will cost me ~1300. This represents a
    real cut in remuneration to me of ~760.
    
    So like others here I will be looking at CORSA's... great foir the
    company image eh? Everyone driving round in cars you can't get
    equipment or customers into....
    
    Conned.

    Re the question on specs, Martin I mean't where did you get the
    information about what's changing in the specs, not the fact it's based
    on the 94 specs. However, re-reading I realise it was Peter who stated
    something missing......
    
    
    So Peter, have you detailed specs for the 94 models?
    
    Richard

re .282;

The spec re the LS losing the electric front windows is taken from the 
mis-named "Drivers Choice" glossy sent to all staff. I presume this is
for the current late 93 spec.

Peter.

    re .274, taking the balance as pay.
    
    The 12 page brochure doesn't mention such mundane facts. However, the
    all important accompanying letter states (front, 3rd para from bottom)
    Eligible employees atall levels can then elect to choose a car at no
    additional cost to them; add to their supplements from salary to lease
    a higher level of car; or take a lower level of car and enhance their
    salary.
    
    Richard

    Peter, Aren't out of sequence notes threads wonderfull?) the drivers
    choice brochure is dated APRIL 93, so is in fact EARLY 93 specs, and is
    the SAME date as the complete brochure.
    
    I visited a dealer today, and they've no news of any changes.
    
    Richard

    A lot of unhappy people discussing this... anybody form "they who made
    the decisions" going to address these concerns???
    
    
    We were told by our manager that his understading was that current
    employees would not receive a cut in benefits...
    
    
    Xtine

	Rumour heard in the street ?

	Ford and BAe(Rover) are not very happy with DEC's new car scheme,
	a GM only one.

	"If you are not going to buy your fleet cars from us,
	then why should we buy computer systems/IT solutions from you."

    Re: .285 >>>    I visited a dealer today, and they've no news of any
                    changes.

    I checked with the Vauxhall Customer Information Desk at Luton, there
    response was:

     The current price list is dated June 1993 (not March as handed out at
     the Roadshow.)

     The 1994 model range probably won't become effective until September
     but there are variations available to order now that are not included
     on the main model catalogues, ie Diamond etc. This probably explains
     why some of the models listed in VTX are not in the March 1993 price
     list.

     Buyer beware! Check the latest specs before you order!

     Martin. 

                   

    Question: If I want a quote on a non-GM motor, will Car Fleet still get
    two competing quotes from different lease companies?  I know from
    experience that there can be very large variations between prices for
    identical cars from Hertz and PHH.  Getting competitive quotes will
    help to keep the price down.  If we only go to one company (presumably
    Hertz), this will be yet another factor driving up the cost of leasing
    the car that I really want.
    
    Ian
    

    >Rumour heard in the street ?
    >
    >Ford and BAe(Rover) are not very happy with DEC's new car scheme, a GM
    >only one.
    
    I would hope the 'buyers' in these companies are more mature than that.
    Assuming we had to go with one vendor, we would always upset the other
    vendors.
    
    Greg
    
    

<<< Note 2100.292 by BAHTAT::HILTON "Beer...now there's a temporary solution" >>>
                                -< I hope not >-

    >>Rumour heard in the street ?
    >>
    >>Ford and BAe(Rover) are not very happy with DEC's new car scheme, a GM
    >>only one.
    
    >I would hope the 'buyers' in these companies are more mature than that.
    >Assuming we had to go with one vendor, we would always upset the other
    >vendors.
    
     Why is this any different from the way both these companies have done
    business with us in the past? They quite rightly push us on
    price/delivery for kit and services. Seems they don't like it when its
    done back to them.
    
    I still feel we are being ripped off, but it is interesting that we are
    pushing back in this particular way.
    
    Also I heard that Rover and Ford when faced with the GM quote walked
    away from the business, basically refusing to modify their quotes.
    
    Stuart

    re .297
    
    Read thje conference notice! Quotes are in 1538

    Re : .297 (deleted by the author I assume) & .298
    
    I have amended the conference notice to point to the new "quotes note"
    2120.
    
    Royston

    Ooops.  As you may have gathered, before I deleted it .297 suggested
    we start a note in here for non-GM quotes.
    
    Nige L.

re the 30 day exhange plan - fleets are specifically excluded, so this is
one benefit you don't have.

Peter.

    
    I believe the company wants to save about 5 million (ha) and the cost
    is currently 26 million a year (ha). S'pose you take 4000 employees
    with cars and give them 21 million/4000 that gives 5250 per person per
    year, fine for my purposes!. Now I know there are tax advantages 
    (for the company) of company cars etc etc but it would solve a load of
    problems and close the issue once and for all. Just an idea.
    
    Ah but 'they' might consider this a pay rise (look it up) and this
    would be a good excuse for freezing pay for another 3 years. Then 
    what? Desk rental, admission charges, bonus schemes (look it up!).
    Perhaps its not such a good idea afterall.
    
    
    						Pissed off of Warrington.  
    
    

    
          ___
    __m__(O O)__m_
           U
    
    Wot, no Astra convertible on the PCL? 
    
    

I have set the previous reply hidden as I feel no-one needs to resort to 
swearing no matter what they feel about the new scheme.

Richard

    RE .294
    
    >If the company really want to save money then why not look at all
    >those people who get 'perk' company cars.
    
    I infer from this that you have a job where transport is a requirement.
    Why a 16V Cavalier?  Won't a 1.6 LS do?
    
    Why is there a differential for level 8 and above?  is it:
    >in order to maintain some long gone equality with other companies?
    
    Huw.

	Well, looking at the basket of cars for the levels over last few years,
	the supplement now equals what the cars in the basket cost.

	less than 8     Cavalier 1.6L		2950
	8/9		Cav. 2.0 SRI		3560
	10/11		Carlton 2.0GLI		4460
	12+		Carlton CDX 2.0I	4940  (basket list was SAAB 
								    CDX 2.0I)

	The amount it costs to lease these cars is less, probably due to the 
	removal of car tax and suchlike.

	The cars haven't changed, they're the same as they've always been.

	Heather

	One of the suchlike was the intertest rate lowering.


	Heather

>>>	One of the suchlike was the intertest rate lowering.
                                    ^^^^^^^^^

	What is an intertest rate please?

				Malcolm. 

	Pah

	

    In that case as has happened the cash supplement should also be
    reduced.  But why does this only affect new opt-outs or new employees
    not everybody???   
    
    Alright, perhaps give currently opted out people 18 months before
    reducing the amount (averaging the lease time before the changes will
    affect those in the scheme), but at some point in the future they
    should also be affected by these changes...
    
    
    
    Xtine 

>    In that case as has happened the cash supplement should also be
>    reduced.  But why does this only affect new opt-outs or new employees
>    not everybody???   
 
	I'm not sure, probably along the same lines that increase from 3000 to
 	3,400 was only given to those who took the car, not to those who
	took the cash.
   
>    Alright, perhaps give currently opted out people 18 months before
>    reducing the amount (averaging the lease time before the changes will
>    affect those in the scheme), but at some point in the future they
>    should also be affected by these changes...
 
	It's not par for the course, the 400 rise given to the people who
	take the car still hasn't been passed on to the people who take the
	cash.........and that was 3 years ago.

	Would you have this 400 taken from the people who take the car now?
	I mean, it's been much more than 18 months.

	Or, would you give this 400, backdated for 3 years, to those who take
	the cash, continue to pay it for the 18 months, then put everyone level?

	(and that's not including the VAT differences)

	Heather

    
    A Vauxhall "Choices 123" Lease Scheme can be cheaper than the
    DEC Lease scheme !!!!!!
    
    I started a new note for this see   Note# 2123
    
    Regards... Bryan
    
    
                           

    If anyone is interested, I got my quote requests in the day before 
    the scheme changed and have just had the first one back.
    
    For a Ford Mondeo 1.8 GLX the driver price is 498 pounds, I'm a
    recipient of the car/market supplement, or whatever it's called.

    
>    Just because non-car takers where unjustly treated last time it does
>    not make it OK for car-takers to be unjustly treated this time...
>    better that everyone is fairly and evenly compensated every time...
 
	"at that time" has actually been for the last 5 years........and
	will continue to some degree for the next three, untill all the old
	leases have gone.

	Taking the overcompensation for 5 years, and then getting upset when
	you loose it, and want it forced on everyone else, hardly sounds fair 
	to me.  
                                                               
	If you want to make it just, do it for everyone now, cash and car, not 
	just when leases expire, and recompense those that have been "less
	overcompensated" for their shortfall.

	Heather

re .327
    The impression I got was that for most models you don't have to add as
    much to the 2950 as you would have had to add to the 3400 previously?
    
    re.326
    
    Heather, I am more than happy for you all to have the difference back
    sounds to me like there weren't too many people affected by that
    though... judging by the fact you are probably the only person I have
    ever seen complaining about being "less overcompensated" - admittedly
    you have been complaining regularly for the last, what was it? 5
    years...
    
    Maybe if more people had kicked up a fuss then "those in the know"
    would have been less likely to make changes to the scheme expecting
    everyone just to accept with no complaints...
    
    
    
    Xtine
                      

	Everone who was level 8 and above, and taking the cash was affected.

	How many actually knew they were affected is another matter.

	It's a bit like the pension scheme change for women last year.
	All women 26.6 or over (if they fund 50ths) or 20 or over (if they fund
	60ths) when they started work with Digital were affected......if they 
	can't interpret the implications of the change, written on a loose 
	leaf piece of paper in with the yearly report, they won't find out 
	"till they retire....on a much smaller pension than they think.
	The change - normal retirement for women is now 65, it was headed
	"equality", and said it said in black and white (well cream) it would 
	have no effect on pensions.	
	It took 6 months of letters to-and-fro with personnel and the actuaries
	before they agreed on my statements of the affect it would have.

	The same will happen with variable compensation, your variable bit
	won't be included in the "2/3rds of salary".......but how many people
	have written to personel about that either?
	And who will get all the surplus in the pension plan?

	Personnaly, I think it's all very badly managed, without any thought to
	the people in the company.

	The fact that hardly anyone has complained before, would probably 
	lead them to believe we wouldn't notice again.
	
	However, the logic is there from 88, what they have done is consistent
	with the changes made then.

	I fully expect the change in the pension plan of the NRD to 65 to be 
	the base for changes in the pension in future, it's as plain as
	the car changes in 88.......but whose saying it's not on?
	
	Heather

    re. 328
    Yes the new scheme IF you want a vauxhall and IF you want to pay extra out
    of your own pocket its better. But the choice of cars that can be obtained
    at 'zero cost' has been reduced, to get another manufacturers car it will
    cost more due to reduction of the allowance.
    The element of choice that was given as the great advantage when I joined
    Digital has been curtailed.
    
    Brian

    
    The last line of the last note sums it up beautifully,
    
    The car scheme and the choice it offered at the price it offered was
    part of the compensation package that we took when we joined the
    company.
    
    This has been drastically altered to our loss, it is exactly the same
    as a salary cut!
    
    Richard
    
    

    There are some REAL strange prices on the PCL, ie:
    
    Cavaliers:
    
      208          V6 2.5I 4DR SAL + 5DR H/B                   4584
      210          V6 2.5I AUTO 4DR SAL + 5DR H/B              4668
    
       18          SRI 2.0I 4DR SAL + 5DR H/B                  3560
      220          SRI 2.0I 16V 4DR SAL + 5DR H/B              4120
    
    I would expect the V6 to be alot more expensive than the 16v SRi
    
    Also the Calibra's  
    
    310              16V 2.0I 3DR COUPE              
    							CLOTH     4072
                        "   "    "    "                 LEATHER   4192
    
      312              TURBO 16V 4 X 4 2.0I 3DR COUPE   CLOTH     4912
                         "    "    "    "    "    "     LEATHER   5008
    
    
    They just don't make sense when you look at list prices.
    
    Greg

    Yes, but the Calibra has a very high resale value. If you look in auto
    trader, second hand G-reg 16Vs are fetching 7 to 8 Grand.
    
    Huw.
    
    P.S. the V6 engine is very nice. They had a demonstrator up here in
    Warrington with the Roadshow. I only hope they'll put it into a
    Calibra. 

    
    
    What can I say... atleast when all those people that only work for
    this company because of the car they drive finally leave, not only will
    the redundancies stop (because, so it seems, we'll need to hire more
    to compensate for all those that are going to leave), but we will have
    a work force that WANTs to work here, and WANTs to make DIGITAL EQUIP
    CO. profitable again. From what I recall the lease scheme entitles all
    those people that are entitled to a car (whether they need it or not)
    to a 1.6L Cavalier/Sierra size saloon/hatchback vehicle without any
    further payment from the employee, Has this changed, do you now have to
    pay extra for a 1.6l cavalier....NO you don't, so from the company
    perspective nothings changed.
    
    Alan

    
      Re- 338.
    
                HERE HERE!

Still the Frontera prices are not shown. It still says that they will appear 
"in the next few days".

I wonder if there is any truth to the rumour that the reason they are not 
there is that if the Cavalier price changes upset people, the huge increase 
in the Frontera prices was really going to cause some fun.

M.

    Someone in our group contacted car fleet this morning.
    They say that all TBA prices, Saabs, Fronteras and option prices should
    be available "early this week". Maybe even today.
    
    Royston

 FYI: on the old scheme a quote for an employee below level 8, on a
      bog standard Frontera 2.0 Sport was an additional 258 pounds.

 Stew.

    I resent .338's comments, and can only assume they come from someone
    who is not affected by the changes.
    
    Like many others in this discussion, I have been in the company for
    many years, and consider I have been unswervingly loyal in that time,
    through thick and thin. Choice of company car is a nice bonus, but I
    can live with a reduced choice if required. What I can't live with is
    an effective salary cut (disguised as 'saving the company money'), on
    top of two years of no pay rises.
    
                                                                    
    Stephen

re.344:

Well said that man!

Dave.

    
    re .344
    
         I can't say if the changes will effect me. My last 3 pay rises
    have come and gone with out change (except the X% of inflation), but
    the basic facts are that the company still provide a quality 1.6l base
    car at 0.00 cost, although now, if you choose to take a care below the 
    cost of the base car you gain the price difference (where as before,
    I believe you lost it). 
    It could be worse, the company could say "Here is a fleet of vehicles,
    all of them are identicle, to maintain the choice factor, which one would
    you like", or "at your present level you are entitled to drive this,
    please enjoy it".
    It just really bugs me that there seem to be so many notes saying  *"I
    came to work for DEC because of the car scheme, and now it's being
    taken way" If you don't like it then, take your pick.., Me ? I'm
    relatively happy, I have an enjoyable job ( maybe not as enjoyable as
    it used to be, but it could be worse). I've been with DEC 9yrs 9months
    and 26 days, I may not be "as overcompensated" as I was, but believe me
    when I say that all the people that I went to school~/college with are
    doing worse than I am. 
    
    Alan
    
    
    key:
    * This is/may not be the actual wording, but it relays the general
      opinion (IMO)
    ~ Those that I have remained in contact with.
      

    
    Their there 2.0 i sport = 2968
    		2.4 i  	    = 3760
    		2.3 td      = 3676
    
    They look quite reasonable to me.
    
    
    Regards Martin

    Saab prices are now available on VTX. They don't look like bargains
    though.
    
    Royston

    
    re: -1.
    
    Surprise, surprise.
    
    Still according to a "DEC person" , there is a 20:1 ratio of employees
    who support the changes to car policy.
    I keep meeting the 1 and never any of the 20!!!!!!
    
    

    
    It's all to do with residual value at the end of the lease...
    
    
    
    maybe ;-)

    Some really good news.
    
    An Astra GTE 16V for 2926, equivalent Astra GSi is 4312 from memory.  
    But I'm not telling you where so I can have it :-)
    
    tp

    >  I think I'm glad to be getting out of it for a year, I might not
    > even rejoin!.
    
    I thought once you are out that is it, ie you can NEVER re-join. I'm
    sure I've read it somewhere...
    
    Greg
    	

    Well it's now 30th July and no sign of the prices for the optional
    extras for the Vauxhalls! I rang fleet on Wednesday morning and was
    told they were typing the data in at that time, and it was expected to
    be available on VTX in the afternoon or Thursday!
    
    I have been off on a day's holiday today so haven't been able to talk
    to fleet. Does anyone have any news about the optiin prices?? Or are
    they there but hidden somewhere?
    
    Jim

I think the inclusion of Saab is just a token gesture to say that
we have a choice and we don't HAVE to go for Vauxhall. After all, 
Saab's have been priced out of most people's reach, and fleet have
not sent out Saab details, only Vauxhall.


	Ian

    re .356
    
    and what happened to the discount?
    
    Surely it must be better to encourage people to take on these cars
    before taking out new leases.  Now I see no incentive at all.
    
    	- Chris -

    Re a couple back
    
    I too had heard that once out of the car scheme you could not return.
    I can't find anything written to that effect though. If I go I don't
    think I would want to return anyway I can get an HP/lease deal on
    a Subaru legacy estate, same as the one I have now, same period 3 yrs
    which is not much different to the one I pay for now. However at the 
    end I have a car to trade in for a new one. Then the car scheme doesn't
    even come close to competing.

    I believe its true that once your out its forever... except in my case
    I am taking a year off to do an MBA... so I had to come out... and I
    assume if I want to I will be able to rejoin on my return...
    
    
    
    Xtine

    Seems like the 'base' car for a level 8 or 9 is now the Astra Merit
    1.7D 5dr. hatch. That's the car which would help you retain your old
    'supplement' over a base car at no cost, which is quite useful for long
    distance commuters like me.
    However, this is in reality a 600 pound reduction in my comps.&
    benefits!.
    

	The base car was the cavalier, I wrote this earlier.

	By the looks of the price, it still is......so no reduction.


	Heather

    I think car fleet will have to do a good deal more chasing up of people
    with over due cars. In the past it was in the drivers interest to drive
    car fleet because we all like to have a new car.
    
    I'm lucky in that I received my new car in June so (theoretically) I
    have 3 years before I feel the pinch. I for one will wait for car fllet
    to catch me.
    
    I used to know someone who had taken his fleet car through MOT twice
    !!!!
    
    

     re .365
    
    That's what I drive and that's exactly what'll happen when I renew.
    From where I sit the "claims" in Computer Weekly etc are true.
    
    :-(
    
    When I got this "base" car on the old scheme, I didn't expect it to drop 
    further on the new. They seem to have redefined "base" in order to
    relieve me of what I used to count as salary.

    re .366,
    
    Yes I think this will be a major problem, as I believe late cars incur
    quite large penalties from the leasing company. This 'hidden' cost may
    well outweigh the benefits of the GM deal.
    
    I am aware of people who have no intention of returning their cars
    until asked.
    
    Ian.

>   They seem to have redefined "base" in order to
>    relieve me of what I used to count as salary.


	Base has NOT been redefined.

	What has happened, is that over the years, the cost of the lease
	has decreased, but this has not been reflected in the compensation
	until now - when it's been done in one hit.

	Heather

    Let me pose a question on the subject of 'base car'.
    
    If the Cavalier Sri is supposed to be the base car for level 8/9, then
    shouldn't the 8/9 supplement be higher than the cost of this car?
    
    The reason for this being that the policy on car supplements is
    supposed to include an allowance to reflect competitive practice of
    funding private mileage fuel as well as the car.  I quote from
    VTX.....
    
     "Finally an allowance is then added to reflect competitive practice
      of providing fuel for personal, social and domestic use.  This final
      figure then establishes the supplement given for each band."
    
    - Chris -
     

	I haven't seen that, I presume this means more tax though.

	I'll read the bumf again.

	Heather

    Re .373
    
    Chris,
    
    Where is this "finally there is an allowance..." bit in VTX. I can't
    seem to find it. I'd certainly like to check it out as this is news to
    me (and others it appears). 
    
    Royston

    The bit about "providing fuel for personal, social and domestic use" is
    in the new car scheme brochure too. In section 3.

    That bit about the allowance is in the letter and/or booklet everyone
    got posted about the new scheme.
    
    Greg

    It seems like everyone can now find the relevant text, (the VTX text is
    on the page titled 'Car Supplement', choice 3 from the '<2> Car Scheme 
    Guidelines' selection of car fleet VTX).
    
    What I expect to hear next is that this is a hangover from the old
    guidelines, and does not form part of the present car scheme policy.
    ^^^^^^^^^^                                                   ^^^^^^
    
    Please, Doug, prove me wrong!
    
    C
    

I've mailed my manager to query this. I'll let you know the answer...

Dave.

    Thanks for the pointers, I've found it now.
    
    Surely this should be escalated as there appears to be no "allowance
    added to reflect...personal fuel costs".
    
    Royston

>    My definition of "base" is the car I can get without digging into my
>    "take-home" pay. This is the way I have done it ever since I joined the
>    scheme (I have never used my level 8 allowance for the car... can't
>    afford to).
 
	well, the schemes definition of a base car is differnt from yours,
	and it has been consistent. Over the last few years you have gained,
	as Digital has not reduced the scheme in line with reduced car lease 
	costs....but have done it now, in one go..
	   
	The info on VTX......when I read it first, I took a different meaning,
	that it was included in the lease. On second reading, I read it as it 
	should be included, as an additional amount.

	It's a bit ambiguous. If it does mean in addition, then they
	ain't doing it.

	Is anyone currently talking to personell about this?

	Heather

	Oh yes, and don't forget about the extra tax.....this would be a perk
	and should show up on the P11D......

	Heather

    Heather, I guess it depends on what the company decides as a "base" car
    for each level. You listed these out a while ago but I wonder if there
    is an official list. If for example the base car for <level 8 is the
    Cavalier 1.6i LS which does match the allowance exactly then there is
    definately no "additional allowance" in evidence as all.
    
    Royston

    If the supplement is increased over and above the cost of the lease of
    a base car, then it should not render the employee liable to a benefit
    in kind tax.  
    
    1	If taken as cash, then this would be taxed as part of salary
    
    2   if used towards a car lease cost, then this is no different to the 
    	main part of the supplement, and is taxed as a bemefit in kind 
    	of provision of a car. i.e. tax on 15% of what is then probably a
    	higher priced car.
    
    c
    

>    Heather, I guess it depends on what the company decides as a "base" car
>    for each level. You listed these out a while ago but I wonder if there
>    is an official list.

	It was an official list from personel.

>   If for example the base car for <level 8 is the
>    Cavalier 1.6i LS which does match the allowance exactly then there is
>    definately no "additional allowance" in evidence as all.
 
	Yup, I can't see and additional allowance, which is why I asked if 
	anyone was taking this up with personnel.  Looks like Dave Kerrell
	is following the right route for an official answer.

	Heather

re .385

I was thinking of a third option, claiming it back via expenses - how
else can they relate it to private mileage?

Heather    

re the Cavalier/Calibra prices

The resale value is taken into account when the lease cost is 
calculated. This has been mentioned in here several times. I
think the only way to get a REAL answer would be to get fleet to 
get the information from the lease company, but I doubt they
will release such information.



	Ian

    re .-1
    
    I don't think there is any intention to refund actual mileage, or
    anything of the sort.  My interpretation is that the supplement was
    determined as being a means to attract and retain employees who could
    otehrwise obtain a better benefit package elsewhere.
    
    The base car is considered equitable to that provided by other
    employers, and as these other employers often provide fuel then the
    supplement had to be increased to balance this.  Of course, once the IR
    started taxing this fuel as a benefit in kind, the real value went
    down, and for some company car drvers, this may actually be taxed to
    the extent where it is no longer a benefit.
    
    In the current climate, where there is less pressure on Digital to
    provide benefits to attract and retain employees, then it may well have
    been decided that the overall benefit of fuel allowance is nett zero.
    This could then added to the base car lease cost to result in a
    supplement which does not 'overcompensate' the employee.
    
          - Chris -
    

Does anyone know which of the 4 Vauxhall dealers will be supplying Northern
Ireland and how will the cars be delivered, i.e. driven over or sent on a 
transporter.

Sean

    I don't understand the reference to only 4 dealers, and why send them
    over, doesn't Ireland have Vauxhall dealers of it's own?.
    
    Direct from Doug I have it that cars will be sourced as now from
    whichever dealers do the deals with Hertz. There are no restrictions or
    limits on who they may be.
    
    Richard.

    I think he might be alluding to something I came across.
    There are many Subaru dealers in the country but Hertz only deal with
    one. My local dealer knows that he can supply Digital at much cheaper
    reates but he can't get a look in as a supplier...draw your own
    conclusions.

No, VTX says that Digital will only source its Vauxhall fleet cars from 4 dealers
1 in Bristol
1 in Reading
1 in Manchester
1 in Edinburgh (I think)

So which will service Northern Ireland is a good question, 
and also the method of delivery.

For more info see Car Fleet VTX

cheers

Dave D.

Just to confirm that I am asking this question for the reason Dave listed
in the previouse note, i.e. the info on VTX.

The reason I ask about the delivery method is that my current car was driven
from Tunbridge Wells to Belfast via Scotland. It arrived with over 600 miles
on the clock, cigarette ash over the driver seat and dashboard, coke tins
lying in the back and the outside looking like it had been driven through
the fields. This was almost 3 years ago and since then any cars which have 
been driven over have arrived in good condition so hopefully this was an 
isolated incident.

Sean

P.S. How much does it cost to ship a car from the mainland to Northern
Ireland, our fleet here is approx 53 cars.

    About dealers - I understand that Hertz have appointed a dealer in
    Belfast - unfortunately, his name escapes me for the moment.  We are
    also working on the dealer network to get best coverage.
    
    Doug

    re .376 price anomalies.
    
    I have a copy of Fleet car June 1993 which has lots of tables in it.
    
    For Calibra 16V depreciation is given at 18.72ppm for 4yr 60,000miles
    For Cavalier Sri                         12.54ppm for 4yr 60k
    
    Depreciation is defined as difference between purchase and residual
    divided by mileage. They don't list the turbos or trim vaiants. I don't
    think .388 suggestion of residual value answers this anomaly. I wonder
    if the calibra is cheap or the cavalier expensive because it's more
    popular.
    
    Andrew

    
    Results of Digital Vauxhall Ride & Drive Roadshows
    
    Reading over 4 days		384 Test Drives
    
    Warrington   3 days		273 Test Drives
    
    Fareham	 2 Days		193 Test Drives
    
    Basingstoke	 2 Days		315 Test Drives
    
    Total	11 Days	      1,165 Test drives
    
    Particular interest shown in Frontera, Calibra, Cavalier V6 and all
    Turbo Diesel models.
    
    Vauxhall tell us this is the best they have done and are very pleased
    to have put the effort into the Roadshows.
    
    Doug

>>                     <<< Note 2100.397 by CHEFS::ARNOLD >>>
    
>>    Particular interest shown in Frontera, Calibra, Cavalier V6 and all
>>    Turbo Diesel models.

    
    It would have been usefull if the Cavalier Turbo-diesel had been available
    on the Reading show. I heard others apart from me also making the same
    request.
    
    Richard

    I heard on the radio this morning that Vauxhall workers are being given
    an extra week's holiday this year as demand for new cars is lower than 
    expected. 
    
    	Terry

    Heard on TV this morning...
    
    Vauxhall now have 52% market share... so 1 in 4 new cars are Vauxhalls?
    
    (why isn't in 1 in 2??)
    
    
    Xtine

    There is an error on the new Car Order Form in declaration 4 on the
    front of the form.  The words "and indemnify Digital against any
    additional expense arising therefrom" will be deleted in the next print
    run.
    
    Anyone using the current issue form ref CFAJB 7/93 can delete these
    words when ordering.
    
    Doug

    The Driver Prices for Vauxhall Options have been ready for VTX for some
    days, but we have a problem with getting the information up on VTX.  We
    are working to solve this problem and will publish the prices as soon
    as possible.
    
    Doug

    Thanks Doug for keeping us informed.
    
    Royston

    
    Re : the Vauxhall info.
    
    Demand for the Cavalier is reported to be much lower than last year
    and those working on Cavalier production lines have been put on short 
    time working (3 weeks/month) until Christmas.  (Autocar & Motor)
    
    Vauxhall don't have 52% of the new car market. I'd be surpised if
    it was even 25%.
    
    Richard.
    

re .400

>    Vauxhall now have 52% market share... so 1 in 4 new cars are Vauxhalls?
    
 >   (why isn't in 1 in 2??)

reverse digits and 52%  becomes 25%  -> 1/4 or one in four

	Dave

    I've just received a new car order form and the famous 'front floor
    mats' are no longer included as a default extra.
    
    Do the new cars come with front mats as standard these days anyway ?
    
    Royston

    Royston
    
    Yes - naturellement - Floor mats are standard and FREEEEEEEEEE !!
    
    Doug

    ...so if we submit a quote for a non GM car (horror) we have to specify
    floor mats or not?
    
    Greg

>
>    I heard on the radio this morning that Vauxhall workers are being given
>    an extra week's holiday this year as demand for new cars is lower than 
>    expected. 
>    


does this mean we get an extra week :-)

>>>    It would have been usefull if the Cavalier Turbo-diesel had been available
>>>    on the Reading show. I heard others apart from me also making the same
>>>    request.
    
>>>    Richard

	I would echo that too, Richard!

				Malcolm.    

Re.407

>>>Yes - naturellement - Floor mats are standard and FREEEEEEEEEE !!
   
	Can I just have the Floor Mats Doug,  You can have the Vauxhall

	8^) 

     
    
    Yawn Yawn - Floor mats are free for all even those who go for a Non GM
    car.
    
    Now for those rubber fetishists who only want the mats........
    
    It must be Friday 
    
    
    
    Isn't it?
    
    
    
    
    Please ?
    
    
    
    
    Pretty please .............
    

    No it's MONDAY Doug, and there's a stack of quotes to start
    processing...

    OK back to the list... now where was I ??
    
    H ??
    
    Ah Hilton, Yes red cirrcle round his name

    re 413
    
    Nah, can't get me on that one Doug, mine get's renewed in 96, so I
    expect the car scheme to have changed by then.
    
    ;^)

    Dipping in now and then, it has taken me nearly a week to read this
    topic!!  What occurs to me is the following:
    
    Lots of grumbles about loss of pay, loss of prestige car etc etc.  No
    one has asked what can be done about it.  The folks in CARS_UK
    generally tend to be fairly spirited but all I've seen is lots of
    tooing and froing between "I'm losing lotsa dosh" and "Well I'm not, so
    how can you be" and lots of evidence both ways.
    
    Yes, I'm a level 8. Yes, I'll lose out.  Nowhere here does anyone
    suggest what to do, except "speak to my manager, but he'll be getting
    done same as me!"  
    
    Digital spokesperson says "20 people happy with new scheme, 1 not"
    
    Did ANYONE here get polled about their feelings?  No one here (Learning
    Services, James Watt House) did.
    
    20 to 1.  Hmmm..  if they polled everyone, 215 people dissented
    
    	So what does one do?    Leave,  (try getting a job!)
    				Complain (who to, and would they listen?)
    
    Checkmate....
    
    
    		Jon
    
    

    I put up the latest Digital Unix poster, the one which shows a Model T
    Ford (?) in a browny green landscape captioned "Their Unix". Below is a
    custom car/drag all chrome and fat tyres captioned "Our Unix".
    
    Some office wisecrack, no not me, has recaptioned this as "The Car
    scheme is" and "The Car scheme was".
    
    I leave it as an exercise for the readers as to which caption matches
    which picture.
    
    Andrew
          

    Now the cheaper add-ons have been published, has anyone actually
    compared full prices, for example:
    
    16v Calibra + metallic paint + air conditioning = 4072+(95*3)=4357
    
    What would this cost you on the old scheme?
    
    Greg

From VTX I read

16V Calibra with Cloth Trim is  4072
Metallic Paint			FREE
Air Conditioning		  95

Where do you get the 3 * 95 from ?

Durelli

    > Where do you get the 3 * 95 from ?
    
    95 is an annual price, so a 3 year lease is 3* 95.
    
    I think ;^)
    
    Greg

    Greg,
    
    All these numbers are annual driver price so you should have only
    counted the 95 pounds once.
    
    I have a nearly 3 year old 16V Calibra with ABS and aircon. I pay 1900
    per year, but I took it over part way (Terry Clarks car) so the real
    cost was 2800ish. ABS is now standard. What we really need is a just
    prior to July quote/lease.
    
    Andrew

    
    The Car Fleet VTX pages have a digital logo with a capital "D".

Searched the conference for old cailbra quotes under the old scheme, got...

Mar 93 16V models 1192 and 1093
Jan 93 8V for 1069, 16V for 1606
May 92 8V 1774
Jul 92 16V 2264

There are also quotes for Turbo's
3105 with leather, 2446 for cloth.


Seems like a wide varition over all.

There is also mention of a fresh air filter for 15 quid.  What is this ?

Durelli

<<There is also mention of a fresh air filter for 15 quid.  What is this ?

If this is this same as on my car, then it's a piece of gauze which is placed
over the air intake (for the cabin interior). The gauze traps any dirt and
so you get filtered air inside the car. The gauze strips need to be replaced
every 3 months.

Karen

    Well, its interesting to see a few quotes coming in (2120.*).
    
    The Golf looks a bit pricey !
    
    Royston

    Is that Golf Quote for the VR6, if not WOW!
    
    :^o

Actually, thinking about it. I bet it's the depreciation on GTi's these days
that done it,

Dave

    The quotes are outrageous... exactly as I expected...
    
    Xtine

    What's worse is they're still not consistent:
    My quote in .5 was a Citroen XZ Aura Turbo diesel price 12,330 quote 3668
    The quote in .6 is a Mondeo GLX Turbo diesel Price (*)  13,155 quote 3456
    
    * I'm not certain of the Mondeo 1.8 TD GLX price, this is the 1.8i GLX
      price.
    
    Richard

re .429

>>     * I'm not certain of the Mondeo 1.8 TD GLX price, this is the 1.8i GLX
>>     price.

The Mondeo 1.8TD models are priced the same as the 1.8 petrol models.

The quotes I got (for the Mondeo and Montego diesel estates) are in line with what 
I was expecting under the old scheme, if I could have got the quotes in on time!

Chris.

Doug ,
	Can you please display the quotes from LM00001 to LM00030 there are some 
in Note 2120 but I am at the end of my lease and rather that send in for my 2
quotes if the prices are on the HIGH side then it will be a Vauxhall.

P.S. Any idea when the TBA on the PCL will be posted.


						Stuart

    Re .406/.407 on the subject of floor mats
    
    (Sorry about the delay, I've been on holiday...)
    
    Doug,
    
    Can we insist that the 'free' front floor mats are manufacturers'
    fitted mats and _not_ generic Hertz mats.  This is a 'hot button' with
    me as I had a bad experience with generic mats (PHH as it happens) when
    one of them 'migrated' around the floor well (of a Cavalier) and caused
    the accelerator pedal to jam in the open position.  Luckily I was
    stationary at the time, so no damage done.
    
    I wrote to Pam Dormer at the time and she was 'horrified' at what had
    happened and promised to take it up with PHH.  Nothing happened.  I
    raised the subject with Car Fleet at a later date, but again nothing
    happened.  (I think there is a whole Note on this subject - to which I
    contributed! - buried somewhere in this Conference, but my knowledge of
    Notes is not sufficient to enable me to rediscover it quickly.)
    
    I will not now use generic mats under any circumstances.  As an
    additional factor, the Cavalier CD (in which I had the problem) came
    with two layers of carpet as standard (and probably still does).  The
    last thing it needs is a _third_ layer of carpet.  What it needs is a
    fitted rubber mat.
    
    Ian
     

    Will soft top cars, ie the new Astra ever appear on the PCL?
    
    Cheers,
    
    Greg

    no, no, no, no. I think Greg meant one people can actually afford :-)

re.43:

Ian,
	you are right about the mats, they can be dangerous. Only proper fitting
mats should be used. I can also remember this subject coming up before, I'm
suprised it's still unresolved.

Dave.

Now's the time to come clean: I'm considering defecting from the 
scheme, Jumping out and buying my current lease car.

OK, I know that for the money you get you can't get an equivalent deal 
on a brand new car. However I don't consider I really need a new car 
anyway. 

I sort of think this every time my lease is up, but the latest changes 
have really pushed me over the edge. I cannot get even moderately 
interested in driving a Vauxhall, not that they aren't good and 
competent cars. It's just that I find them boring.

This is the problem with any single source scheme, some will be happy, 
those that would have chosen Vauxhall anyway. Some will be content, 
those that don't rerally have any great preference. But those that 
have a passion for cars and have an allegance to another mark will 
find the imposition hard to take.

I've done the figures, got insurance quotes, and the one outstanding 
variable is the price going to be charged for the purchase of my 
end-of-lease car.

Richard

there's a book called

    Car or Cash

which includes advice from

    Coopers and Lybrand

is priced at

    4.99

and is avialable from

    CCH editions
    Telford Road
    Bicester
    Oxfordshire
    OX6 0XD

    Tel: 0869-247864

There out of stock at the mo, but, I've ordered one and I'll post a review soon.

I didn't think the cabrio price was too bad considering it's 15,800 quid and
the insurance is probably quite high. It's only a bit more than a similar
priced 8v Calibra - which everyone seems to be saying is a really good deal!


	Ian

Now, let me be careful in what I say here.

After using the official managment chain to escalate my concerns about the
implementation of the new car scheme, specifically the supplement reduction,
and after a presentation over this to Chris Conway,

I "understand" that the BOM were told, and approved, of the fact that a
large element of the savings would come from re-setting the supplement
values.

Therefore the scheme has full BOM approval, and will not be changed.

There now, hasn't that improved your morale.

What do you mean, No.  Didn't you get the free beer and the show biz stars
at your BOY kick off meetings and conferences?

What do you mean, you didn't have any BOY kick off meetings? How else did
you get your personal targets set so that you can achieve your requisite
performance and bonus payments?

Now, where's that tongue in cheek symbol, or maybe it should be the ...
(whoops, that one is obscene.)

Peter.

re.445:

I don't understand Peter, of course it was done with BOM approval, and no doubt
they all took a cut in salary in-line with the UK subs performance and forgot
to tell us.

Dave.

    I received an answer from car fleet in response to .373 about the
    fuel allowance.  
    
    This response stated that they believe that my supposition was correct,
    and the taxation currently imposed on such a benefit makes its net value 
    zero. This figure has been taken into account in the calculation of the 
    supplements, and will be included in HRO's annual market review to ensure
    competitive supplements.  
    
    Let's hope this competitive practice is not seen as negative in years
    to come!
    
    - Chris - 

    Well, I'm pulling out, partly because of the new Company Car Tax, but
    plenty because the new Digital Car Scheme sucks and the way the
    transition has been handled.
    
    I've got my purchase price for my leasemobile. Considering all the
    horror stories of over inflated prices for leasemobiles I must admit to
    being reasonably pleased by the offer price. It may be a couple of
    hundred above what you *might* get at a dealer, BUT I know how its been
    driven and its service history.
    
    BTW Top marks to Louise Brierley.
    
    Angus

re.448:

Well done Chris on getting a response! I asked the question to my manager, it
was then passed to our functional personnel rep, who passed it to Employee
Services, who passed to Craig Johnson...

But, the answer you got does not make sense. I don't know of any current rate of
taxation that is 100%, so how could it be zero?

Dave.

    Petrol is taxed as a benefit, and as such bears no real relation to
    the amount you put in the tank or what he employer pays/refunds.
    
    I cannot remember the current effective tax rate for fuel benefit, but
    I remember thinking that you have to do quite a lot of private mileage
    for it to be a real benefit.  This is especially true for someone who
    travels less than 2500 business miles.
    
    Maybe someone can provide the actual figures.
    
    - Chris -
    
    

    Re: 2120.21 & .22
    
    Barrie, what are you doing submitting quotes ? You haven't had the R19
    that long.
    
    Royston

Well - I have conclusive proof that here in Digital,  I have definitely
been under-over-compensated.

The day I found out about the Vauxhall scheme - I saw a job advert - 
and I've jumped.

In a couple of weeks, I start at my new place... with a more than 50% hike 
in basic salary (and then potential bonuses, pension etc) + fully expensed 
non-Vauxhall car of my choice.  Pretty well exactly the same job spec too. 
My friend who is a recruitment consultant confirms that it isn't my new job 
which  pays too much - it's my old job which pays too little.

I guess that this doesn't go for all functions in Digital - but certainly,
technical consultants are just NOT paid the market rate - and by taking 
our nice cars off us too - Digital is waving us goodbye.

Perhaps that's what the company wants.
    

>>> - Digital is waving us goodbye.

>>>Perhaps that's what the company wants.
    

	The don't have any severance (redundancy) cost that way. 

	Have you only just realised that?

				Malcolm. 

    RE 2120.28
    
    Bernie, save yourself a packet and go for the Calibra 4x4 turbo :-)
    
    Royston

    Has anyone leased a car other than a Vauxhall since the 'new' scheme?
    
    All the quotes seem very over priced.
    
    Greg

I still think that we could have made greater savings by getting rid of our 
self-imposed middlemen.   Sub-contracting out Fleet to someone like Hertz/PHH
etc, or even someone like Vauxhall leasing, who do this as a business, and
getting rid of Digital Fleet who are just an overhead. 

    Re. 461
    
    The Vauxhall piece is only the first stage of the change process.  We
    are now into stage 2 where we are tendering leasing to companies and
    looking for innovative and imaginative solutions for managing the 
    Fleet.  However, sub-contracting does not necessarily produce a cost
    saving of any magnitude, if at all.
    
    Doug

    Yes Nigel, just because *you* wish to opt out doesn't mean the other
    4000 employees do.

Opting out is not as attractive if you do high company (or private!) mileage.

Dave.

    The scheme is supposed to cover both Vauxhall and Saab cars, but the
    position is even worse with Saabs. My Saab (ordered/delivered in May)
    costs me 400 pounds a year; ordered under the new scheme, the same car
    would cost me >2000 pounds/year.
    
    Steve
    

    .460 seems to imply that the cost savings come from the decrease in
    cost provided by limiting choice and negotiating a "bulk purchase"
    deal...
    
    I don't see how anyone can dispute the fact that a significant
    proportion of cost savings is as a direct increase in cost to the
    employees in the scheme, and a reduction of cash benefit should they
    leave it.
    
    
    Xtine
    
    

    It is as simple as this.
    
    They can now get a better deal on the 'standard car' so therefore the
    amount has been reduced. This saves the company money. 
    
    I believe the standard car for level 8 is a Cavalier SRi 8v. If you
    are level 8 and had one of these under the old scheme and had change in
    your pocket then you were 'over compensated'. 
    
    If you were running a company and discovered that employees were being
    overcompensated wouldn't you do something about it ? Especially if it
    will save some jobs.
    
    I am sorry but like Trev and Huw and other lower forms of life below
    level 8, I see things differently.
    
    Flame off, sorry folks its a bad day.
    
    Royston

Actually, I think that everything thing they've done to the car scheme is 
fine. In fact, in their position I would probably have gone further and 
removed all choice.

If the cash is an alternative to a car, in part or full, and the car value 
has decreased, isn't it reasonable that the cash alternative should also ?

What I object to so strongly is the ridiculous amount of incorrect and 
information and secrecy which seems to be such a deliberate part of it all.

Why not just be up-front about it all right from the start ? Tell me the 
truth about the whole situation, I'm clever, I'll understand; Honest.

	For some reason, unknown to me (Mr Mod may know), my system (and the 
same when I used my SUBURB ALL-IN-1 account) fails to record the notes that
I have read in this conference.  So Next Unseen always goes to Note 2!

	It takes now, three or four minutes to scroll down the directory for this
Topic!  This will be Reply 475 (or later), please Mr Mod will you write lock it 
and start a new Topic.

				Malcolm.

    Is anyone else having a problem with this notes string ?
    
    I'd rather not see it write locked.
    
    Malcolm, maybe it is the interface you are using ? 
    
    Royston

try the command "set seen/before=yesterday" and see if that sorts it.

Also, on a PC interface, and therefore I suspect others, you can set the 
action to be taken on the open command. 

Therefore try the command "mod profile /auto=unseen"

Failing that, try the conference TRUCKS::NOTES_HELP

>>It takes now, three or four minutes to scroll down the directory for this
>>Topic!  This will be Reply 475 (or later), please Mr Mod will you write lock it 
        
	Why not just type 2100.L?  Or set a marker? 

	Ian.

	I have the "windows" access to notes on my VS3100/76 SPX and have now
done "Set Unseen - before 21-Sep-1993" and that has helped a little.  Looks as 
though I'll have to do this every day!!!!!!

	Question is, why should I need to do this?  It was the same when I 
accessed this conference through my ALL-IN-1 account, but none of the other 
conferences give me this problem via either route.

	So, why do I have this trouble?  There must be a reason or fault 
somewhere that can be fixed properly - Mr Mod?

				Malcolm.

    Re a few back....
    
    At risk of winding up some of the recent <grade 8 noters, the view
    looks slightly different from engineering. Here if you entered Digital
    as a level 8/9 then what you were being offered was a "market
    supplement" which could *optionally* be used totally or partially to
    lease your choice of a car. The idea of the market supplement was to
    ensure that the Digital compensation package matched the marketplace
    where cars were typically supplied, but did it in the Digital way
    (single status, employee choice, etc.).
    
    So the end result now is a decrease in the benefit (over time) both
    because of the drop in the cash equivalent and the restriction of
    choice of car.
    
    Most people understand that life is different now, times are tough and
    the company has to save costs. One of the ways that the company can
    save costs is by giving its employees less. The employee marketplace
    has changed so that (presumably) the company believes it can cut back
    on benefits without impacting its capacity to keep and (one day...) hire
    employees. Now I think what angers people (me included) is when this is
    presented in any other light.

    
    >And even more annoying - it doesn't affect all employees equally...
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    
    What exactly do you mean by this ???
    
    g.

	I access this conference and notes string from my SUBURB account with
	absolutley no problems whatsoever.


	it's not the conf
	it's not SUBURB and ALL-IN-1


	Heather

I can't find the appropriate note, so I'll stick it here.

The service from Car Fleet at the moment is excellent. Very pleasant, very 
efficient and very helpful.

M. 

>    Also, people who opted out of the scheme will not contribute towards
>    the savings of running the car scheme (even though the cost of
>    providing the car allowances is included in the cost of the scheme),
 
	the people who opt out have been contributing to the savings in the
	car scheme for the last 4 years, by being 400 quid "less 
	overcompensated"   

	Also, the company does not have to pay employers NI on the amount,
	they don't need to have admin people to administer it etc...etc....

	If the people who opt out, were to change their minds and opt in,
	you would see an increase in the costs of the car scheme.
    
>    In fact I can't find one consistent thing about the implementation...
 
	It has never been consistent for the 9 years I've been here, it looks
	like the trend is just continuing   :-)   
    
	Heather

    
    
    Plus, all get the same car supplement allowance. Which reading between
    the lines of previous notes would prove very unpopular.
    
    
    g.

re.488:

I don't understand your point, are you actually disputing the impact of the
recent car scheme changes on people who lease Vauxhalls other than the standard
car?

Dave.

Has anyone got anything NEW to say about the scheme? I get the feeling I
keep reading the same note over and over again.


	Ian

Yes. I understand the reasoning and think it quite fair.

    
    Yes. Save money on the scheme by reducing employee benefits. Seems fair 
    to me. 
    
    Richard.
    
    Note : Anyone who didn't have a Vauxhall before and didn't want one
    again is WORSE off. Even some of those who had Vauxhalls before the 
    changes and will want Vauxhalls again have suffered.
    

    Yes that seems to be the gist of it. 
    
    Why is it being dressed up as a change to the car policy?
    
    We're just being paid less - quite simple.
    
    But why can't we be told that??

    No, no, no, no, no.
    
    The 'market supplement' or 'car supplement' is worked out on a certain
    model of car depending on your job level.
    
    Under the new scheme the allowance has been reduced because the lease
    cost is cheaper.
    
    Under the old scheme the lease costs were very variable and the 
    allowance would cover that model and you would have change.
    
    It really is as straight forward as that.
    
    The bottom line is that level 8's and above are worse off
    but its not been disguised as anything else.
        
    Has anyone ever been told that the market supplement
    was based on something else ?
    
    It would be much fairer to have one car allowance and
    if you have a higher job level your salary should
    reflect this. 
    
    Does this make sense or is everyone ignoring
    this because they are so upset ?
    
    Royston

>    if you have a higher job level your salary should
>    reflect this. 
    

that one alone should be mandatory...

re .495

>    The bottom line is that level 8's and above are worse off
>    but its not been disguised as anything else.

	The new car scheme offers less choice & higher prices in other words
there has been a reduction in the total benefits package for the whole
workforce. There has also been a de facto pay cut for many level 8+ employees.
This was certainly presented as a simple re-jigging of the scheme to enable
Digital to be more profitable. 

	Some of the full implications of the new scheme e.g. reductions in
total take home pay for some were not clear at first. They were even denied as 
some BOM members categorically said that no-one would be worse off under the 
new scheme. Eventually the truth dribbled out. Whether one subscribes to the 
cock-up or the conspiracy theory there has definitely been a less than full & 
frank disclosure of the effects of the new scheme in practise.

Nigel

       >> The new car scheme offers higher prices 

Not if you compare the costs of the 'standard' level cars. The cost to the 
employee of these cars has remained the same.

    I think some of you must be on mind altering drugs if you think you are
    not worse off.
    

Re.498

>>>   Not if you compare the costs of the 'standard' level cars. The cost to the 
>>>   employee of these cars has remained the same.



	How may people (as a proportion of the total of those with a company car)
actually have a "standard" car?  My guess that it isn't a very large proportion,
therefore most people will be affected by the changes!

	Back a few notes, writers were saying about how the changes are not fair
and then there are those who say it is, but only if you have the standard car
etc. etc. etc. ....   Well, what about those who are not elegible for a company
car or for any form of allowance for the job?  They haven't had any sort of pay/
benefit/renumeration cut, but then most of them are lower paid anyway.

	So pick the bones out of that then!

				Malcolm.

I fail to see the relevance. If you are not eligible for
a company car, then the changes do not affect you in any
way.

If you are concerned about not getting a pay rise, then 
that's an entirely different debate, not suitable in this
conference.


	Ian

	I good analogy here might be to look at the subsidised canteen that
Digital provides. Suppose that in the interests of economy that the hot food
service were axed & in future all that was available was sandwiches. Prices
generally were raised by 10% except those for the cheese & pickle sandwiches
which were reduced by 10%. 

	Now there's no denying that Digital is still providing a subsidised
lunch. Those people who always ate sandwiches would be reasonably happy. Those
who usually ate cheese & pickle sandwiches would be especially pleased. 

	The fact that some people are happy about the change doesn't mean that
there hasn't been an overall reduction in the total benefit package. 

Nigel

The Argument is ... for us 4 year level 8/9

We joined Digital and the Market supplement was MONEY!!! not car scheme
in the pay negociations prior to joining it was always described as MONEY not
car. You could with it as you wanted but you MUST have the  car.

So at digitals convienence they later flim flam in it in as car supplement and
then reduce it.

Its the deception that really rankles, and the ongoing cover up.
 I could call it something stronger, but I doubt I could get the police or a
civil court interested.

    Start a union!

    Changing direction slightly....
    
    Has car fleet caught up with all non Vauxhall quotes, as 2120.* seems
    to have dried up a bit?
    
    Or, are people not posting them anymore.?
    
    Andy

re.506:

I don't understand the relevance of Digital's current stance, if a significant
proportion of employees became members, their current position could be looked
back upon fondly as somewhat of an idealistic luxury. Anyway, I think you should
take this to UK_Digital, as this conference should be about cars and not
industrial relations at Digital..

Dave.

    I don't know about who pays the difference, but you can only take over
    a car when your old car is due for replacement or as a new hire. Also,
    if you leave the scheme, you cannot rejoin.
    
    Paul

    re .511
    
    Officially this is true but I know of several cases where for personal
    reasons people have given their car up in mid lease for take over
    and that is the point I was making. Also there are local arrangements
    where you can leave the scheme and rejoin.
    
    Royston

	If you go off pregnant, unless you want to keep paying the full cost,
	you have to give the car back.

	When you come back, you can have a new car, or take up any on the
	list - even your original - at a reduced takeover price.

	Heather

re.515:

Fair comment, I was looking for a family car, and dead cheap thus the cars
quoted.

Dave.

    Has anyone else had problems with cars available for takeover ?

    A guy I work with is having a long wait for his new car and as he is
    new to the scheme he has been having a string of takeover cars to run
    around in rather than a hire car.

    Because he is not taking them over officially, he cannot have them
    valleted and has had all sorts of problems with flat batteries empty
    fuel tanks vsl alarms with flat batteries in the remote key. Not to
    mention the cr*p that people leave in them.

    Car fleet don't seem to know or care about the state of the cars. They
    just try and keep track of where they are and let the person taking
    over the car to sort out all the problems (sometimes even the road tax
    has run out).

    I don't know what should be done about this, I just feel sorry for the
    hassle involved.

    Royston

    
    What an impression to give a new employee or driver the poor guy must
    be thinking what the hell have I gotten myself into here?
    
    Richard

    Trying to put this positively...
    
    If I'd have known how little car fleet pay for a valet, I would have
    requested the money and got it done by a professional valet company. 
    After the first (of 3) visits to get it valeted, they didn't even empty
    the ashtrays, and I quote, "he probably didn't recognise that they were
    ashtrays" 8-}  Car fleet pay half the amount charged by reputable car
    valet companies (in the South).
                         
    There, that wasn't too depressing was it.  
    
    tp

    
    Newsflash from VTX:
    
    ****************************  NEWSFLASH ******************************
    DETAILS OF THE DIGITAL FY94 CAR SCHEME ARE NOW BEING CIRCULATED TO ALL
    EMPLOYEES.  THE PREFERRED CAR LIST AND PRICES WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE UNTIL
    MID-JULY.
    
    NO NEW QUOTES OR ORDERS WILL BE PROCESSED UNTIL 1ST AUGUST ONWARDS. THOSE
    QUOTES AND ORDERS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN ACKNOWLEDGED WILL BE HONOURED AND
    WILL BE BASED ON THE DIGITAL FY93 CAR SCHEME DRIVER PRICES AND SUPPLEMENTS..
    ****************************  NEWSFLASH ******************************
    

    Errrrm, that is a VERY old newsflash.
    
    Phil Gill.

    Errrrm, I think that is his point Phil.
    
    Royston

    
    
    Does anyone know the extra lease cost for a Passenger side Air Bag 
    on a Cavalier?
    
    Thanks,
    Mike
    

    re-1
    
    #81 per year for a Cavalier GLS.  The full 'real' cost is #295, for tax
    purposes.
    
    Mikef

    A chap in our office was told by fleet that Rover's will be added to
    the PCL.
    
    Any one else heard this?
    
    cheers,
    
    Greg

    We have got some big system going with Rover recently though haven't
    we?
    
    All there Dealerships or something like that  will have access.
    
    Dave D

    BMWs will be on the scheme next!
    

BMWs are on the scheme - they're just a trifle expensive!

    Renault 19 16v for 4,500!!!
    
    Speechless

    
    	Hi ,
    		does anyone have any experiences/and/or prices related to
    		taking a non Vauxhall (or Saab) car on the scheme,and what 
    		premium we pay by doing so ?
    
    				Cheers Mick

See 2120 and 2100 in here.

Dave.

    Silly question, I know - but...
    
    has anybody asked Car Fleet to enter the quotes into this conf directly.
    Just like the old VTX service I guess. It would save a lot of time and
    money, I for one have been chasing car quotes for a couple of months.
    
    cheers
    
    simon

    
    
    	Just heard on the grapevine that the Vauxhall scheme has been 
    shelved because Digital did not meet its volume discount numbers 
    due to employees opting for non Vauxhall cars.
    
    	If this is so can we expect the non Vauxhall prices to come 
    down to a more reasonable level again?
    
    	Any comments, laughter or tears?
    
    	Mark.
    
           

    Its a bit dangerous to spread this around as it appears to be only a
    rumour.
    
    However, with a lot of people leaving the company and others that are
    opting out of the scheme altogether, it doesn't surprise me that the
    number of cars is less than expected.
    
    I guess things will be made clear in June/July for the begininning of
    next FY.
    
    Just before Doug Arnold left he said to me 'watch out for some more
    changes to the car scheme'. I wonder if this is what he mean't.
    
    It would surprise me in the current climate if we went back to the way
    things were. If changes are made again I suspect it will be in the
    companies favour rather than the employees'.
    
    Royston

    Ref -1
    
    Difficult to see how much more it could be "in the company's favour",
    but I suppose it's possible...
    
    

I doubt whether prices will ever be what they were. Old
scheme prices were based on a larger supplement. Maybe 
we can do a deal with a few manufacturers and limit choice 
to a shortlist of manufacturers and models.



	Ian

>but this would clearly be an errosion of benifit!


... and this would be unheard of in a company such as
Digital!

MAkes much more sense with a smiley.....

-Mike-

I hate those smileys. Anyway, I didn't really expect anyone to 
take a comment like that seriously.

	Ian

I have received a mail from my manager, the provenance is not clear so I 
can't post it, which suggests minor tweaks to the car scheme for a couple of 
months. Take over of used cars, the discount drops to 5% for FY94 Vauxhalls, 
15% for non-Vauxhalls and 25% for pre-FY94 Vauxhalls. It also appears that 
some new orders will be deferred to May 5th.

Presumably this is to try and encourage us to take cars over.

Andrew

    Can anyone shed more light on this???

    The memo referred to is from Betsy Fitter who requests that the message
    be cascaded to management teams. So most managers must know, mine
    certainly did!
    
    I contacted Car Fleet and they advised that they ALREADY apply the
    discount to the takeover cars shown on VTX.
    
    Extract from memo:
    Cars placed on the take-over list will attract the following discounts:
    	Vauxhall cars (pre FY94), 25%
    	Vauxhall cars (FY94),      5%
    	Non Vauxhall cars         15%
    
    There is also other information regarding people awaiting delivery of
    new cars, cars from redundant employees and leaving the car scheme.
    I would advise interested parties to check via their manager or try car
    fleet for further details.

    Phil.
                       

    To me this is bad news.  As I remember, the discount was something like
    30%.  It was never as low as 15%.  That's why I'm driving a takeover
    car that was 800 cheaper than a new one and 400 cheaper than my
    previous lease (for the equivalent car).
    Sounds like they are reducing the benefit again !
    
    tp

    What does it say about leaving the car scheme?
    
    To me it is looking an attractive option even at this years prices.
    Next years Vauxhall prices *will* be worse (work it out: this year's
    Vauxhall prices must have been based on projected quantities which will
    never now be achieved due to (a) people being made redundant (b) people
    leaving voluntarily (c) people opting out and (d) takeovers from these
    rather than new buys . Quantity goes down, prices go up.).
    
    I'd ask my manager about the Betsy Fitter mail but I'm not sure I've
    got one at the moment.
    
    regards
    john

    
    ....dream on....
    
    This has all the makings of the dreaded double whammy!
    
    First, we lop loads off your allowances, then we put the prices up.

It's the thought process that baffles me.

n hundred cars are due to be returned in the next week or two, so lets reduce 
the takeover discount from 30% to 5%.

Make that person a salesman, or put them in charge of morale. They obviously 
have a deep understanding of how to make people do what is required.

Andrew

    Has anyone put a quote in yet (or know of anyone who has) for a 16v
    Probe ?
    
    Royston

    Just heard from a reliable source that Car fleet is to be outsourced
    as of June. Anybody else heard anything????
    
    
    
    Regards Martin

    Who is based in Windsor?
    
    Hertz?

    Hello out there?,
    		      not being one to start rumours?, I have heard
    that the fuel allowance of 8p per mile, is going to be reduced
    for those with diesels??.
    
    Can anyone out there throw any light on this????????
    
    Regards
    		Colin.

	That would be difficult, since the same rate is given to those who have
come out of the Car Scheme and "they" have no way of officially knowing what
sort of car you are running.

				Malcolm.

    Since when did "they" let such practical things get in the way.  It
    would be just another chance to improve my moral.
    
    Jc
    

If they can give a different rate according to the size of the engine on a 
motorcycle they can do anything. Not sure where the cut off points are, I just 
remember there was one around the 550 size.

Andy

    Re -1
    
    Are you sure? My 318iS (Metallic, FFog, Elec SRf, Heated locks, Alarm &
    radio) is #4619 under the "old" scheme. The 316 Coupe wasn't available
    then.
    
    Paul

Can we have the explanation about the use of Leaseplan
please?


	ian

    
    
    
    
            The reason I said it looked ceaper was that for my Current 316i
        saloon with sunroof and front fog's I can now get a 316i SE, i.e.
        alloy wheel's and electric motor (for the sunroof). As for the cost
        of the 318is I can't comment as I don't know the price off the pre.
        Vauxhall PCL.
    
    
    
    

    Fleet advised me the other day we are no longer using Hertz, but
    Leaseplan, which may explain why Hertz refused to authorise new wiper
    blades for my car last week!
    
    Don't know if it's only Leaseplan, full stop.

    This is interesting. I wonder if this means the Vauxhall/Hertz deals
    have gone to the wall and we will start getting favourable quotes with
    all manufacturers again.
    
    Royston

    Re - 1.
    
    You're joking.!
    
    Favourable quotes, does anybody remember those.??
    
    The only favourable thing about Non-Vauxhall quotes, is that they are
    "Non Vauxhall"..
    
    Andy

    
    Has anyone seen quotes for the Izusu Trooper in Vauxhall badges yet??
    
    It is a lot more robust than the Fontera but will probaly be a lot
    dearer.
    
    	Adrian

    
    The price of the 3.1TD is about 4k more than the Frontera...so Vauxhall
    told me.I have spoken to Car Fleet this week, they are working out the
    prices and are hoping to put them on VTX this week if possible.
    
    BTW     The name is the Vauxhall Monterey (sp?)  

    re.-1
    
    So where are the Monterey quotes then ?
    
    This week.! Is that this week this year, or next ?
    
    Awaiting.....
    
    /ab

    A colleague has resigned from Digital and is trying to find out if
    he can buy his lease car (which is in mid lease).
    
    I understand you can buy your lease car if you get the package but I
    don't know what the situation is if you leave of your own accord (No,
    its not a Honda :-) ).
    
    Royston

    re .-1 
    
    We've found out that as car fleet don't want any more cars lying around
    that he can buy the car.
    
    Royston

The FY95 Car Scheme is due to be published on VTX 1st August , anyone any ideas
of what changes are in store . Is there a move away from GM cars is there a move
to Ford,Rover or is it back to quotes that will all be very expensive.

Will the base car be a  Lada Samara or a Skoda Favorit ??????????



					Stuart

    A question to all noters....
    
    Is it a good idea to create a new FY95 car scheme note or rename this
    topic as a generic "car scheme" note for continued discussion ?
    
    Royston

    
    Royston, do we still need the FY94 Note probably not could we not rename
    it and purge it? thus recovering some disk space.
    
    Richard 

    yeh, clean this topic out after 'THE' announcement

Please keep the FY94 note, and create a new FY95 one.

It is always useful to look back on how things were done!!!

mb

For what it's worth, Roy has suggested and I endorse this note staying, 
and a new FY954 note being created, starting with the announcement as 
soon as someone receives it.

I am not desperate for the disk space so I'll not be reclaiming the 
space just yet!

Richard

Look again. VTX says the FY95 Preferred Car List will be published 1st
August. WHere does it mention any change in the car scheme? I can
understand a new list - one that includes Frontera convertible, 
Monterey's, takes new prices/models into account.

    But I heard a while ago that the favourable vauxhall quotes were going
    out the window because we weren't ordering enough cars. There may be
    some surprises.
    
    Royston

According to this conference, I don't believe anyone else heard any
such rumours - where did you hear it from? I hope the scheme is made
a bit more open again like it used to be, but last year there was
a lot of publicity around the new scheme - this year it has been very 
quiet.

but being a suspicious sort of person, a copy of the prices from the 
current scheme would probably be worth keeping !

Dave

    Well it's the 1st, and the list's the same.........

It isn't even 11am yet. Give them a chance.

    its 15:35 and fleet are still sorting through the prices....
    
    
    
    Martin

It's there! Now there are ONLY Vauxhalls. No Saabs

    
    Does anyone know why there are so many models which are being deleted
    by Vauxhall? 
    
    There are 24 of these models out of a total of 45 which are being
    deleted in the Astra range. Are Vauxhall revamping the Astra range
    completely? If so, anyone know when the new range of Astras will be
    available?
    
    Steve.
    

I quick flick through the prices left me wondering what the base cars are now.

Dave.

I also notice the "standard" Cavalier 1.6 LS is less
than the supplement now.

    >>  ANY ORDERS PLACED AFTER 1ST JULY WHERE THE DRIVER PRICE IS NOW
    >> SUBSEQUENTLY LOWER WILL BE AMENDED TO FY95 PRICE.
    
    This from VTX seems to suggest prices have gone down, whereas Martin
    reckons they've gone up 21%!
    
    
    Greg
    

    Time for an FY95 note?
    
    
    On the whole I thin most prices have gone up. The Frontera price sticks
    out like a sore thumb.
    
    Are these prices from Leaseplan? I will keep an eye on the non-Vauxhall
    quotes with interest.

    
    
               Order Ref          Model             Annual Driver Price
    94scheme      128         GLS 1.7TD 5DR H/B          2728
    95scheme     1118         GLS 1.7TD 5DR H/B          2818  +98 pounds
    

    The Omega prices are down by 100 to 350 pounds.
    
    There was a nice Frontera Nautilus outside Carnell this morning!?
    
    Andrew

    FWIW.
    
    Well it looks like our 'good deal' with Vauxhall actually works. A
    non-DECcie friend just spent weeks dealing with local suppliers to
    lease a Calibra V6 with leather seats. The best deal he got was 5220 a
    year, whereas our scheme is 4823.
    
    Cheers,
    
    Greg

    Anyone know who 'Lease Plan' are?
    
    I've just got my new tax disc through the internal mail, and it is stapled 
    to a with compliments slip from Lease Plan. They seem to be based in 
    Windsor. But I've got a PHH car!
    
    Should I start a rumor that Car Fleet has been outsourced?
    
    Huw.

    As far as I know Digital no longer gets cars from Hertz or
    PHH. All new cars come from Lease Plan.
    
    Sounds to me like your lease has been transferred to Lease Plan.
    
    Royston

>    Should I start a rumor that Car Fleet has been outsourced?

I thought that they already had!

LeasePlan do all the admin etc, but i am not sure whether they
actually provide the cars, or get them from PHH/Hertz/Cheep-o-Motors!

This happened months ago.

mb

    >>Sounds to me like your lease has been transferred to Lease Plan
    
    I don't think so Roy, since the Post Office stamp on the tax disc says 
    Swindon, where PHH are based.
    
    Huw.

re.last few

I've not had any information about changes to the lease scheme.

Dave.

        Anyone know what has happened to the Fleet Admin VTX page?
        
        Ian.

It's still there for me.  Connect to LARVAE object 143, and you'll get it as
item 2 on the menu - I thought this was UK standard VTX home page ...

T