Conference hbahba::cam_sports

    
    Does anyone have the lines for the AFC & NFC championships this
    weekend?
    
    steve

As the one who puts info in The Line, here's my disclaimier:

1. Most of the lines posted come without permission from USA Today and
are usually set by Danny Sheridan.

2. The lines posted here as a ::SPORTS noting stimulator and are not to
be used to break any applicable federal or state laws.

TTom

Sunday:
	buffalo		2	MIAMI		
	SAN FRANCISCO	4	dallas		

Early Super Bowl numbers:

	Dallas		7	Buffalo		
	over/under	45
	odds:		Dallas, 5:2

I would love to be in Vegas and plunk down on those odds. Dallas
is better than a 2-1 favorite??????? I know that  the idea is to 
get the same amount of money on each side, but it boggles the mind 
that they need to give 11-5 odds for that to happen.

The Crazy Met

    >> I would love to be in Vegas and plunk down on those odds. Dallas
    >> is better than a 2-1 favorite??????? I know that  the idea is to 
    >> get the same amount of money on each side, but it boggles the mind 
    >> that they need to give 11-5 odds for that to happen.
    
       TCM, you've got to figure that alot of Dallas fans are betting big
       cash on the Cowboys' first trip back to the SB in a long time while
       Buffalo fans having been disappointed twice in a row are more reluct-
       ant to plunk down any cash on the Bills. Toss in the recent history
       of NFC domination and 11:5 is probably about right. 

Danny Sheridan's odds against winning the next Super Bowl.
Odds will be updated after free agency and draft.

	Dallas		  3:1		Detroit		     1,000:1
	San Francisco	  5:1		Green Bay	     1,000:1
	Philadelphia	 10:1		Indianapolis	     2,000:1
	Washington	 10:1		Cleveland	     2,500:1
	San Diego	 10:1		NY Giants	     5,000:1
	Houston		 12:1		Atlanta		    10,000:1
	New Orleans	 12:1		Chicago		    25,000:1
	Buffalo		 15:1		LA Rams		   100,000:1
	Minnesota	 50:1		NY Jets		   100,000:1
	Pittsburgh	 50:1		Tampa Bay	   250,000:1
	Miami		 75:1		Cincinnati	   500,000:1
	Kansas City	100:1		Seattle		 1,000,000:1
	Denver		250:1		Phoenix		 5,000,000:1
	LA Raiders	500:1		New England	10,000,000:1

Can someone put a dollar down on the Pats?? 

The Crazy Met

    
    What's Sheridan's address?  I'll take 10,000,000:1 but I'm
    concerned about his financial ability to put his money
    where his mouth is!
    
    I remain,
    a sucker for a dollar bet I guess.
    Kev
    

Hey, the guy who sets the line ain't necessarily the guy taking the bets. 
Danny don't book the games, he just puts out the number.

But for anyone interested, you can go to Las Vegas and place this wager
rigtht now. Hail, you're gonna win $10 mil so the air fare, etc., should
be worth the investment ;-).

TTom

    
     I'm a Pats fan but I think 10,000 to 1 is being kind.

    
     Oh, never mind.

	The 'dogs are barkin' in the East.


	Billl

Miami and NY are even? Haven't the Knicks won all 4 games this season, and
Miami is out of the playoffs?? If the line is meant to make people bet equally
this doesn't look like it makes sense. I know, now watch Miami win
tonight :-(

The Crazy Met

TCM,

This is an early line that Danny Sheridan puts out in the USA Today. By
game time, I'd be surprised if'n the final line had the Knicks favored.
Maybe this line is a result of people worrying about whether or not Doc
Rivers will be able to matchup with the Heat. The thinnking may be that
he won't be able to find a Miami player to stomp on his haid. ;-).

TTom

     Los Wages has spoken:
    
        Phoenix    2-1
        New York   7-2
        Chicago    7-2

> PHOENIX		14	la lakers

wow! I can't recall a line like that in a long time.

The Crazy Met

Are those odds for the game or the series??

The Crazy Met

Heck anyone going out to Vegas??I'll take the Spurs with 5-1 odds. They
have to be kindding!

The Crazy Met

Tonight:
	CLEVELAND	2	chicago		

> CLEVELAND	2	chicago	

That has to be the JOKEfor the day. ha ha ha 
I needed a good laugh.

The Crazy Met

TCM,

I couldn't agree more on this. I can seen maybe a pick 'em but I don't
know how Danny Sheridan came up with this one. Jordan has shown that he
doesn't need two good hands to dominate the Cavs but his injury is the
only possible way to explain this.

TTom

    Maybe Hal put his lifesavings on the line...

    
      >> Maybe Hal put his lifesavings on the line...
    
         Ayuh, that's a rib tickler!

>                              -< Suckers' line? >-

Sometimes a line looks so stupid that you get a feeling that it's wrong
on purpose. 

Cleveland favored by 2 points may be a scam to get everyone to go with
Chicago when in fact they - the linesters - know something we don't.

I'm not saying this is the case. In fact, I'd like Cleveland minus 6
because I'd be convinced that this was really a sucker bet. Cleveland
minus the 2 really doesn't get it and most likely by game time, this line
will straighten itself out.

TTom

    yet another series where the season series had no bearing (Cavs won it
    3-2).  The same should hold true for the Knicks and Bulls.

    
    That line isn't the REAL line, is it?  It's just Sheridan's, right?

Some realistic lines for a change.

Though personally I would take Charlotte and give the 8 (if I were in Vegas
that is). Ditto on San Antonio.

The Crazy Met

TCM if'n you take Charlotte you *GET* the points. However, I'd be
interested in the Knicks with Charlotte giving 8.

TTom

Yeah Igot it reversed. Charlotte and take the points is what Imeant.

The Crazy Met

From: clarinews@clarinet.com (JUSTIN SUPON)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.misc,clari.news.gov.state,clari.local.new_jersey
Subject: Sports betting advancing in N.J. legislature
Keywords: misc sports, state government, government, gambling industry,
	misc industry, legalities
Message-ID: <sportsbetU3yJ320pe@clarinet.com>
References: <nj-sportsbetU3yH7pe@clarinet.com>
X-Supersedes: <nj-sportsbetU3yJ235pe@clarinet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 May 93 12:26:31 PDT
Location: new jersey, new york city
ACategory: sports
Slugword: sportsbet
Priority: daily
Format: daily, regular
ANPA: Wc: 412/378; Id: z4671; Sel: xxsz.; Adate: 5-19-320ped; Ver: 1/1
Approved: clarinews@clarinet.com
Codes: ysz.dxx., &ngsrnj., &bogrnx., &szlrnj.
Lines: 42
 
	TRENTON, N.J. (UPI) -- The New Jersey Assembly's powerful
Appropriations Committee defeated a proposed amendment Wednesday to
permit betting on professional sports.
	In a rare move, Chairman Rodney Frelinghuysen, R-Morris, ignored
pleas from supporters to hold the measure and forced a vote after 3 1/2
hours of testimony. The measure failed 8-2.
	But Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman William Gormley, R-Atlantic,
said the controversial amendment is far from dead. Gormley's committee
approved a similar Senate resolution Monday. His panel is to hold a
public hearing next week on the issue.
	The resolution would amend the state Constitution to permit betting
at casinos on professional sports events. To get on the ballot in
November, the amendment must pass both houses of the state Legislature
with three-fifths majorities.
	Congress adopted a law last year that bans sports betting throughout
the country except in those states where it becomes legal by Dec. 31,
1993.
	Sports betting pits anti-gambling and youth groups, religious
organizations and prominent athletes against casinos and New Jersey's
state Chamber of Commerce.
	A similar amendment that would have also allowed betting on college
sports, except for New Jersey teams, failed to win support last year.
Backers of sports betting hoped that removing colleges from the mix
would make sports betting more palatable.
	The New Jersey Coalition to Ban State-Sponsored Sports Betting, an
umbrella group for bill opponents, says legalized betting coupled with
athlete worship by the young would result in more compulsive gambling
among teenagers.
	Supporters say the measure is needed to keep New Jersey's casinos
competitive with gaming halls in other states. Nevada casinos now offer
sports betting.
	Frelinghuysen said he forced a vote in part to make a statement
against New Jersey government's own addiction to gambling revenues.
	``There is a tremendous dependence for a number of programs on
gambling revenue,'' said Frelinghuysen. ``I worry about that level of
dependence.''
	Ed Looney, deputy director of the Council on Compulsive Gambling,
said the vote is a ``courageous, courageous move'' that clearly tells
bill advocates similar measures will be defeated in the Appropriations
Committee.
	``It's only the head count of one committee,'' countered Gormley. 
``It (the bill) is still moving.''

	I am for sports betting since I am not into dogs/horse-racing and am
out of true gambling for the time being, eg the stock market.
    
	First, how does NJ legalized gambling corrupt where Las Vegas
does not corrupt?
	Second point.  The major effort to defeat sports gambling is probably
from the lottery people themselves.  Since people are dumb enough to donate to
lotteries why share those dollars with casinos.

	Children.  So these kids are going to get on buses and drive to Atlantic
City and bet on the Mets.

	Okay, so what the good people are trying to prevent is my walking into
7/11 and playing a four team pro card along with my morning coffee because if
I lose I will call Parcells and ream him out.

	btw, SI had a piece about Letts and Beebe rehashing the play where Don
knocked ball out of Lett's hand at 1 yard line.  Not only Letts but Beebe too
have received junk mail from all the "square" players who missed $ because of
the play (I was gonna use the money to have my kid's teeth fixed, wah,wah,wah).
Or "If I lost money I would have had you shot" - this letter did get sent.

    Back to Sports Betting issue...
	As with everything else today, follow the bucks and you'll find the 
motive... or find the most righteous dude and you'll usually find the biggest
phony.

oth-bill
    

    
    and Yabbut I heard on the radion today that here in Taxyshoottits
    there's a thing going on in the capital to allow the Native 'Mericans
    (them's the Indians, btw) to have Off-track betting on their
    reservations.
    
    Interesting comment was that only in places where you have OTB, is the
    horsey racing industry healthy.  I dunno if I believe that.
    
    I remain,
    ahead of the game in horsey betting!
    Kev
    

    		The real problem is that legalized gambling, if done right
    would take away from the illegal kind.  Organized crime in most states
    have "law"makers in their back pockets.
    
    				/Don

Well, Slash, let's just say that the Mob has some "powerful" lobbyists,
if you get my drift......

tonight:
	NEW YORK	1	chicago		

Saturday:
	CHICAGO		7	new york	

Series odds:
	New York	2:1

Odds to win NBA championship:
	New York	7:5
	Chicago		9:5
	Phoenix		2:1
	Seattle		8:1

    I guess those Westerner's (Vegas) still like Phoenix to take it all. 
    What are the Atlantic City odds?

    >> I guess those Westerner's (Vegas) still like Phoenix to 
    >> take it all. What are the Atlantic City odds?
    
       Read it again. Both New York and Chicago are favored over Phoenix.
       If there were a third eastern team they'd probably be favored over
       Phoenix, too.

>    ... What are the Atlantic City odds?

I'll repost this tomorrow. If'n the line doesn't move after 24 hours,
than it will be close to most lines.

FWIW, most of the lines in the East are also set by Las Vegas. It's about
the only place you can call - legally - and get a line quote. The fact is
that almost all of the handicappers are in Las Vegas.

TTom

>Odds to win NBA championship:
>	New York	7:5
>	Chicago		9:5
>	Phoenix		2:1
>	Seattle		8:1

    Well I'm no gambler, and know as much about this as I do the intricacies
    of the NBA salary cap, but why is 2:1 considered less than 7:5 or 9:5?

    Wouldn't 2:1 be the same as 10:5, which would be higher than say, 7:5
    or 9:5?
    
    
    There are no Atlantic City odds, since they don't take sports bets, as
    per the Jordan discussion.

Just compare the 2 numbers. 2-to-1 is the same as 10-to-5, making 9-to-5
more of a favorite.

Another way to look at is to reverse the numbers. 7-to-5 says that for
every 12 chances, this team will win 5 of them. 9-t0-5 translates to
winning 5 outta 14. 2-to-1, to normalize it, the team will win 5 outta
15. 

It reading odds, you bet the right hand number to win the left hand
number. Bet 5 to win 7; bet 5 to win 9; bet 1 to win 2 or bet 5 to win
10. Looking at it this way, New York pays less than Chicago or Phoenix.

TTom

    re: .60
    
    Wow, Mike, you're really showing your ignorance here.  Does the term 
    ratio mean anything to you?
    
    Just suppose you bet $5 on each team...
    	if the Nicks win you win $7
    	if the Bulls win you win $9
    	if the Suns win you win $10
    	if the Sonics win you win $16
    
    hth
    
    billl

>Odds to win NBA championship:
>	New York	7:5
>	Chicago		9:5
>	Phoenix		2:1
>	Seattle		8:1

>> Well I'm no gambler, and know as much about this as I do the intricacies
>> of the NBA salary cap, but why is 2:1 considered less than 7:5 or 9:5?
    
    Think of it this way, Mike, 2:1 is the equivalent of 10:5. 7:5 and 9:5 
    are both less than 10:5. The lower the odds are, the greater the prob-
    ability of the event taking place. Las Vegas has in essence made the 
    Knicks the favorites to win the title with the Bulls in second, Phoenix 
    in third and Seattle a distant fourth.

    Guess the east coast knows how to do odds...
    

    that's why I moved out here.

I think we have the 2:1 vs 9:5 thang about settled.

A word of caution, however in interpreting odds. Be sure to note whether
you're betting the odds for something to happen or against something
happening.

Often when the odds become prohibitively stacked in favor of one of the
bets, they start quoting odd against the team. If, for instance, someone
quoted the odds as 1:12 for something to happen - risk 12 to win 1 - they
may switch the quote to 12:1 against that happening. I think it confuses
people to see a_odds like 1:12 but 12:1 looks normal.

TTom

    
    The critical point here is that Phoenix is still considered a longer
    shot than both Chicago and New York to win it all, even though it's
    something of a certainty that they'll go to the finals.  Chicago or New
    York has to beat the other team just to get to Phoenix.  Phoenix is
    commanding very little respect...
    
    glenn
    

I don't think it's even close to a certainty that Phoenix will make it to the
finals...


Metz

>    York has to beat the other team just to get to Phoenix.  Phoenix is
>    commanding very little respect...
    
    I wouldn't say that since they were the favorites up until round 2. 
    They've remained at 2:1 but the eastern teams had their odds elevated.

                   
>>    York has to beat the other team just to get to Phoenix.  Phoenix is
>>    commanding very little respect...
 >   
 >   I wouldn't say that since they were the favorites up until round 2. 
 >   They've remained at 2:1 but the eastern teams had their odds elevated.
    
    Remaining at the same odds as you're advancing and other teams are
    being eliminated is a clear loss of respect with the bettors.  As you
    advance your odds should be going down, since the prospects of an upset
    in those rounds have been removed.
    
    glenn
    

Relative to New York and Chicago, respect for the Suns is going down.

Does anyone know the original odds for Seattle?

TTom

>             -< C'mon, Mike, you're not a long hike from Vegas... >-
    
    lived here 12 of the last 13 years and still haven't been to Nevada.

Only for this game, Mike. They're still favored to win the series. To do
this they'll have to win a game at Seattle.

TTom

A little movement:

	PHOENIX		2	chicago		
	over/under	205
	series odds:	Chicago, 2:1

 9:2 with a game in hand? WOW!! That's got be based on mathematics cause I
 doubt any sane book/bookie in the country would give you 9:2 on the Bulls..
 
 Now I could see 9:2 on a sweep, but the series???

 mike

Mike, I don't get it either.

This looks like the odds "for" them winning. Usually they're posted
"against".

In either case, there's no way you going to get these odds, anywhere.
Chicago has to be the favorite. Period.

TTom

9:2 is high, but the 2-3-2 format probably magnifies the change in odds.

The Crazy Met

How so TCM?

	Chicago has a game in hand, 3 out the next 4 games are at home and
they have Jordan and Pippen. At this point I would think that I would have
to pay lots of "juice" to make money. Atleast 1:2.....

 Mike

I am reading 9:2 as Chicago being an overwhelming favorite though usually 
the odds are against not for. If it is 9:2 in favor of Chicago winning
then it makes sense.

The Crazy Met

ok....

    Mike ,
    
    thta means that before game 1 you could have put up 100 to make 50
    (2-1)
    nmow you gotta put up 225 to make 50........its a steal at them odds
    after tonite it'll be about 750 to make 50.....Bulls in 4.
    
    
    Tom

    Gotta go at least 5 now.
    
    Lee

Wednesday night:

	CHICAGO		8	phoenix		
	over/under	209

Series odds:
	Chicago		7:1 (sic)

    
    Gotta love those bettors.  Chicago loses a game and the odds to win the
    series improve.
    
    

re: 90

You beat me to it. Imagine what the odds would be if Chicago had won.
After the loss in game 3 the bettors figure that no way the Bulls
let the Suns stay close in Chicago again. Yeah right.

The Crazy Met

    
     Personally, if I could get the Suns with 7:1 odds I'd bet $100.
    I don't think it's *that* far-fetched that they could pull it off
    even if Mike Heiser does.

If it was a 2-2-1-1-1 format I would bet $100 on the Suns with 7:1 odds.
But next 2 games are in Chicago.

The Crazy Met

 >> If it was a 2-2-1-1-1 format I would bet $100 on the Suns with 7:1 odds.
 >> But next 2 games are in Chicago.
    
    By the same token, all the Suns have to do is win tonight and they
    regain the homecourt advantage. If they split the next two they get
    to go home before a fanatical crowd. Granted, neither is a given 
    but I still would take the 7:1 odds for a small wager. 7:1 just seems
    a bit steep.
    

MLB All Star game, Tuesday:

odds:
	AMERICAN	6:5	national	

	over/under	8

PGA Championship Favorites Odds:

	Nick Faldo		 7:1
	Greg Norman		 7:1
	Nick Price		 8:1
	Bernhard Langer		 9:1
	Fred Couples		10:1

College Football:

Kickoff Classic:
	Florida St	26	Kansas		@East Rutherford, NJ

Pigskin Classic:
	Southern Cal	8	No Carolina	@Anaheim, CA

Some Danny Sheridan Odds for College Football:

Odds Against wining National Championship:

	Alabama		3:1
	Florida St	3:1
	Michigan	5:1
	Miami-FL	6:1
	Notre Dame	6:1
	Syracuse	7:1

Heisman Trophy:

	Marshall Faulk, San Deigo St		2:1
	Charlie Ward, Florida St		2:1
	Marvin Graves, Syracuse			3:1
	Heath Schuler, Tennessee		3:1
	Tyrone Wheatley, Michigan		4:1
	Calvin Jones, Nebraska			4:1
	David Palmer, Alabama			6:1
	Eric Zeier, Georgia			8:1

>	Alabama		3:1

Roll Tide!



'Saw

>	Notre Dame	6:1




Cheer, cheer for Old Notre Dame
Wake up the echoes cheering her name!
Send the volley cheer on high,
Shake down the thunder from the sky.
What though the odds be great or small
Old Notre Dame will win over all
While her loyal sons go marching onward to victory!



'Saw_for_MikeL

The line -->   ---------------------------------

re: .103

that belongs in the diaper discussion that was going on in the Junk note.

The Crazy Met

    
    -1,
    Sacrilege!! Ya gots no culture..!!
    
    MikeL
    

   > Michigan        5:1
    
    What happened?  Was the Rose Bowl cancelled?

> Sunday:
> 	kansas city	NL	HOUSTON		(Montana questionable)

  What I had heard is that the question was on the status of Moon, not Montana.
  Not sure I heard right, though.

Friday Night Fight:

	Julio Cesar Chavez	5:2	Parnell Whitaker

Montana has a bruised wrist. He had to leave the Tampa Bay game early and
has been projected to be Questionable (50-50 chance of playing) Sunday.
Moon was also knocked out of his game against New Orleans when he was
sacked and suffered bruised ribs. He's projected to start Sunday and will
probably be listed on the injury report as Probable (75-25 chance of
playing). FWIW, a Doubtful status is a 25-75 chance of playing.

TTom

>Montana has a bruised wrist. He had to leave the Tampa Bay game early and
>has been projected to be Questionable (50-50 chance of playing) Sunday.
>Moon was also knocked out of his game against New Orleans when he was
>sacked and suffered bruised ribs. He's projected to start Sunday and will
>probably be listed on the injury report as Probable (75-25 chance of
>playing). FWIW, a Doubtful status is a 25-75 chance of playing.
>
>TTom


 Thanks TTom.  What I had heard from an SEN broadcast in Las Vegas was that
 Moon's status was in question, and so there was no line on Monday.  According
 to this guy, when Moon's status was known, there would be a line in the
 KC-Houston matchup.

I think everyone will be waiting until the exact status of Montana and/or
Moon until posting a line. This will probably come soon after the injury
report comes out.

As soon as I see anything on this, I'll post a_update.

TTom

Another update...

It looks like Jim Kelly might miss the Dallas game. He's being listed as
questionable but it sounds like he ain't gonna make it. Look for Frank
Reich to come in.

As it is now, the latest line is:

	DALLAS		NL	buffalo		

Some of the preceding have been determined to be in error. To wit:

	boston college	8	NORTHWESTERN	
	san diego st	4	AIR FORCE	

I had BC at home favored by 18 (which I kinda liked) but it's really 8 at
Northwestern. The USA Today listed the SD St-Air Force game at SD. I
guess they can no longer be considered inerrant. ;-). In fact, the
difference here could be profound considering that early weather reports
call for cold and a possibility of snow in The Springs.

TTom

    
    I think BC is gonna have a major tussle up in Evanston.
    
    NU's got a dang good passing attack. Key is NU's defense. Cain they
    stop the Eagles? Not in the second half methinks. Eagles wear down
    'Cats, 24-20.
    
    But beware the first half, BC!!
    
    MikeL
    

    The Jets are favored?? See, the experts know who's good....
    
    JoJ_NOT

    OK, which line do we use for KOH in the CHIcago-Atlanta game?
    
    brews

>    OK, which line do we use for KOH in the CHIcago-Atlanta game?
>    
>    brews

We'd better be using Tuesday's line because we've already picked against
that.


'Saw

Hail, if'n it's like lasted week with Tampa Bay, it won't matter.

But of course, we should here directly from the directory of the KOH.

TTom

One more sure to move:

LA Raiders announced that Vince Evanas will start in place of Jeff
Hostetler because of Hostetler's ankle injury suffered in the Cleveland
game. First start for Evans since 1987.

TTom

      re-1
    
      Sheet,  the faiders have a chance now;^)

JaKe,

I can't explain your newspaper. Is this the one that went on strike for a
couple of years?

As for the Miami line, it's from USA Today, Danny Sheridan. Perhaps, the
local 'Burgh line is favoring the Browns.

TTom

    
>>I can't explain your newspaper. Is this the one that went on strike for a
>>couple of years?

    Yeah, same one, but they're usually pretty accurate.
    
>>As for the Miami line, it's from USA Today, Danny Sheridan. Perhaps, the
>>local 'Burgh line is favoring the Browns.
    
    the only thing Pittsburghers would say Clevescum is favored at is being
    the only inhabited raw sewage dump in America, possible the world.
    
    JaKe
    

All's I can say is that maybe this is like lasted week's line with the
Jets and Eagles. I saw everything from Jets favored by 1 to the Eagles
favored by 1. The latest line Sunday had it a pick.

What do they say the Browns are favored by?

TTom

    re.142
    
    Brown(spot)s(tm) by 1.5 in my paper
    
    JaKe
    
    

    
    Jake,
    		Why so surprised???  The Browns will win this game by lots
    	more than 1.5 points.  Look for Marino to get knocked out of the 
    	game by the Orange Crush and Rush!
    
    	WOOF!
    

      Hey Hal,  get a clue!!!  The Orange Crush belongs to Denver.
    
      Howwabout the Brown squaters?
    
      Didn't you say the Browns were gonna beat Mihami last year?  The same
    game Bernie broke his foot and had the guts/no brians to stay in the
    game?  I wonder what qtr Vinny will replace him in?
    
      Tim

Some noteable movements today:

Thursday:
	nebraska	20	OKLAHOMA ST	

Saturday:
	FLORIDA ST	13	miami-fl	
	WASHINGTON ST	1	arizona st	

LCS Odds:

ALCS:
	Game 2		CHICAGO		6:5	toronto
	series		Toronto		even	Chicago

NLCS:
	Game 1		atlanta		6:5	PHILADELPHIA
	series		Atlanta		11:5	Philadelphia

Odds against winning World Series:
	Atlanta		8:5
	Toronto		3:1
	Chicago		3:1
	Philadelphia	4:1

    Sheridan is the official line of USA TODAY only
    
    The true line comes from Vegas and is seen in the Boston area
    as the LATEST LINE.
    
    Personally, I don't even look at USA TODAY lines because they
    are just Sheridens opinion.  
    
    Jimbo

    Fla St. covered. Line ended up at 14. Fla St. 28 - Miami 10.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    And Notre Dame was favored by either 39.5 or 40 going into the game wif
    Pitt, and won 44-0.
    
    JaKe
    

    I watched some of the first half, and ND played right down to
    Pitt's level, awful.  Pitt is baaaaaaaaad.
    
    MikeL
    
    

no line on Fl. State and Maryland??

The Crazy Met

The 'Noles are a prohibitive favorite over Open. The Terps are having a
bad year so in the spirit of Temple, there's no line versus Bye.

TTom

 The 'Noles don't even play Maryland until Nov 6th with games against
Virginia and Wake Forest before that. Wassamatta, TCM? Want to get your
bet down early?

now watch MD lose by less than last weeks team did.

The Crazy Met

For some reason I though they played MD this week. Does Fl. St. have this 
weekend off?? Or is there no line against VA?

The Crazy Met

  TCM, apparently TTom's note went zooming right over that pointy head of
  yours. Here's FSU's schedule:

#-----------------------------------------------------------------------------#
| vs Kansas.......42-0  |  GEORGIA TECH......51-0  |  at Maryland (Nov 6)     |
| at Duke.........45-7  |  MIAMI.............28-10 |  at Notre Dame (Nov 13)  |
| CLEMSON.........57-0  |  VIRGINIA .........40-14 |  N.C. STATE (Nov 20)     |
| at UNC..........33-7  |  WAKE FOREST (Oct 30)    |  at Florida (Nov 27)     |
#-----------------------------------------------------------------------------#

Somewhere we were talking about streaks and betting on them or betting
against them.

The following is some semi-official data from lasted year' NFL. For each
team, I've listed the longest winning and losing streak against the
spread, the team's record against the spread and other notable streaks.
Mileage may vary with what lines are used. These reflect the ones I post
here from USA Today.

Looking at the data, you'll see that only 2 teams, Dallas and San Diego
had any kinda streaks longer than 5 games as they won more the 5 times in
a row. This is about how I recollect most years to be: it's rare to win
or lose more than 5 games and mostly that occurs with teams exceptionally
hot or bad.

Enjoy,

TTom

		Against the Spread
		Longest Streaks	Record		Other
Team		Win	Lose	w-l-t		Streaks
-------------------------------------------------------
ATLANTA		3	3	06-08-2
BUFFALO		4	4	10-09-1
CHICAGO		4	6	05-11-0
CINCINNATI	4	4	07-09-0
CLEVELAND       3       3	07-09-0
DALLAS          6       2       14-05-0		5 Wins
DENVER          2       2	09-07-0
DETROIT         3       3	08-08-0
GREEN BAY	3	3	08-07-1
HOUSTON		4	4	09-07-1
INDIANAPOLIS	5	4	09-07-0
KANSAS CITY	4	3	08-09-0
LA RAIDERS	3	4	07-09-0
LA RAMS		5	2	09-07-0
MIAMI		2	4	07-11-0
MINNESOTA	4	2	09-07-1
NEW ENGLAND	2	3	07-08-1
NEW ORLEANS	4	1	11-06-0
NY GIANTS	2	5	05-11-0
NY JETS		2	4	04-10-2
PHILADELPHIA	3	4	10-08-0
PHOENIX		3	2	07-07-2		4-0-1 Wins
PITTSBURGH	3	3	09-08-0
SAN DIEGO	8	4	12-05-1		4 Wins, 12-0-1 Wins
SAN FRANCISCO	2	2	08-10-0
SEATTLE		5	3	08-08-0
TAMPA BAY	4	3	09-07-0
WASHINGTON	2	4	07-11-0

Got some updates for college:

	ALABAMA		20	southern miss	
	CALIFORNIA	3	southern cal	

Some updates:

Saturday:
	colorado	16	OKLAHOMA ST	


Monday:
	KANSAS CITY	3	green bay	

Watch the Viking line. McMahon will not play, Salisbury will start.

TTom

USA Today quoted a 5:1 line as odds on Bowe beating Holyfield. This is
one of those bet 5 to win 1 since it's odd *ON* winning.

>                    -< Don't "steak" yo' rep on the Vikes >-

If'n I could decode this I think I'd reply.

TTom

    -1
    Read .170, last line, you big dummy!!
    
    MikeL
    
    

    A while ago there was a bunch of speculation on the Fl St/ND line.
    
    And the line today is.......drumroll please........
    
    Fl St  7  @ND
    
    They also pulled out a fairly ridiculous stat.  It's the first time
    that ND has been an underdog at home (now it get's better), in November,
    while they were undefeated!
    
    IM

Danny Sheridan is quoting 7 also.

I think this is basically a_affirmation that Charlie Ward is expected to
be healthy.

TTom

	Dem Irish could be in deep doodoo.


	billl

Danny Sheridan's odds against winning the NBA title:

	New York	4:1
	Phoenix		4:1
	Seattle		7:1
	Cleveland	8:1
	Houston		10:1
	Charlotte	12:1
	San Antonio	15:1
	Orlando		15:1
	Portland	20:1
	Utah		25:1
	Chicago		25:1
	New Jersey	50:1
	Miami		75:1
	Indiana		100:1
	Golden State	150:1
	Detroit		250:1
	Boston		500:1
	Atlanta		750:1
	LA Clippers	1000:1
	LA Lakers	1000:1
	Denver		75000:1
	Sacramento	100000:1
	Milwaukee	500000:1
	Washington	500000:1
	Philadelphia	600000:1
	Minnesota	750000:1
	Dallas		1000000:1

Odds against winning Rookie of the Year:
	Chris Webber		4:1
	Jamal Mashburn		5:1
	Lindsey Hunter		6:1
	Calbert Cheaney		7:1
	Anfernee Hardaway	8:1
	Isaiah Rider		10:1
	Shawn Bradley		12:1
	Rondey Rogers		12:1
	Bobby Hurley		15:1
	Vin Baker		15:1
	Field			20:1

Odd against the winning MVP:
	Patrick Ewing		4:1
	Hakeem Olajuwon		5:1
	Larry Johnson		6:1
	Shawn Kemp		6:1
	Charles Barkley		7:1
	Shaquille O'Neal	8:1
	Karl Malone		8:1
	Alonzo Mourning		10:1
	David Robinson		12:1
	Brad Daugherty		15:1
	Field			12:1

    Re: Irish being in deep doodoo. Maybe/maybe not. Strange things can
    happen still 8 days away....
    
    I believe soeone said that this is the first time ND had ever been
    unbeaten,playing at home in November and not favored. The stat guy
    who found this neds to git another hobby.
    
    MikeL
     

  >> I believe soeone said that this is the first time ND had ever been
  >> unbeaten,playing at home in November and not favored. The stat guy
  >> who found this neds to git another hobby.
    
     It was obviously a baseball man bringing that sport's annoying pen-
     chant for meaningless stats and over analysis to college football.

>Danny Sheridan's odds against winning the NBA title:
>
>	New York	4:1
>	Phoenix		4:1
>	Seattle		7:1
    
    was this after the Seattle trade?  If so, the dude is whacked!

Don't know. It was in the USA Today today.

TTom

    Kendall wasn't the one the West was worried about.  Any 2 guard that
    shoots 44% won't get too much attention.

    These lines always seem to follow previous season.  And bettors tend to
    do same.
    
    Apparently the #1 sure thing this weekend is Dehere but he'll only pay
    minimum .10 on dollar or is it .05.

Dehere finished 8th or something. Definitely out of the money.

TTom

    Odd on tonight's fight:
    
    perot 3:5
    gore  4:1
    
    HTH
    
    Is vegas taking calls?
    
    MikeL
    

|    Odd on tonight's fight:
|    
|    perot 3:5
|    gore  4:1
|    
|    HTH
    
Lloyd Benson says to expect a "knockout punch" from Al Gore.  Imus says
Benson belongs at the dog track, with a note pinned to his shirt saying
"Hi, my name is Lloyd Benson and if I have any creamed corn on my chin
please wipe it off"


I wonder what the odds are that the "Fan Man" will parachute in....


'Saw

when is the last time ND was a TD  underdog at home??

The Crazy Met

I heard someone say on WFAN that Notre Dame has never lost when they've
been an underdog at home.

Should be a GOOD game on Saturday.....  


'Saw

    -1,
    
    I dunno 'Saw. I was in ND stadium in '82 when they was a dog to
    Penn St and they got beat by the Lions. Who said that on the FAN
    anyway? Throughout their history, they've been dogs many times at
    home and lost, I'm sure.
    
    They musta qualified that statement somehow.
    
    MikeL
     

>    
>    I dunno 'Saw. I was in ND stadium in '82 when they was a dog to
>    Penn St and they got beat by the Lions. Who said that on the FAN
>    anyway? Throughout their history, they've been dogs many times at
>    home and lost, I'm sure.
>    
>    They musta qualified that statement somehow.
    
I don't know.  I was in traffic at the time, and only had one ear
on the radio.  I think it was just some jamoke who called in, but
I'm not positive.

It was on Mike and the Mad Dog, so I figured that they might have corrected
him if he was wrong, but again, I wasn't paying 100% attention.....


'Saw     

the qualification factorial is probably in the "Sandbagger's Era"....
I see FSU getting screwed by home cooking and loosing wide left....

mike

    Homecooking??
    
    By which crew??? 
    
    Probably be a Big East crew.. Last time I loked neither ND or FSU was
    in the Big East.
    
    BTW, how vcain ND have homecooking if'n they is independent??
    Is there an independent crew that just does ND and Louisville games?
    
    MikeL
    

Mike, oh Mike.

Like little ol' Notre Dame can't figger out how to put the fix in.
Conference? They don't need no steenkin conference. They is already
bigger than any of 'em anyhoo.

I always thought that who's the refs was worked out in them Ts&Cs type
stuff.

TTom

    Er,
    Mind decoding your last sentence??
    
    We don't need no steeenking fix. We gots Touchdown Jesus, #1 Moses,
    Fair Catch Corbin and all-other campus charms(er fixes) in.
    
    BTW, traditionally ND has used Big Ten refs at home. Don't know
    the policy they(college football) has now.
    
    Lemme axe a real dumb question.. Why the hail do all these southern
    Mason-Dixon-type teams take a regiment of local storm troopers
    with them?  Bowden will probably have half the northern Florida
    state police barracks with him. Nuttin' like perpetuatin' the
    southern stereotype of the sunglass-wearin' Man. 
    
    They expecting a assassination? Couldn't the local police/security
    do the same thang?
    
    MikeL
    

re: troopers

Tank McNamara cartoon last week was having a good 'ole time with this.

The Crazy Met

What I awas attempting to say was that the issue of who refs the games is
usually spelled out in the contracts. For instance, in the Colorado-Miami
series thised year, the visitors bring the refs.

TTom

    That sounds like a compromise between the no-joe line and the joe-line.
    
    I will predict that the official no-joe line is la 4 1/2 vs a joe line
    that would have been la 1

>	AUBURN		1	alabama		


I predict that next Saturday the entire state of Alabama will grind to
a halt while this game is being played.....8^)


Roll Tide!


'Saw

This year it seems like Alabama likes to play up to the level of the
competition. They handily beat Tennessee (worse than the score looks) and
lose to LSU.

TTom

>
>This year it seems like Alabama likes to play up to the level of the
>competition. They handily beat Tennessee (worse than the score looks) and
>lose to LSU.
>

Tennesee was the tie, wasn't it?

I hope they whup up on Auburn.

Had a good friend who went to Auburn.  I could listen to her talk for
days on end, but the one thing we couldn't talk was college football.

I also miss that dude who was in here who was an Auburn fan.  Made this
time of year fun.....


'Saw

Brain Cramp, Monday...

Yeah, Bama tied Tennessee. It was Tennessee who shoulda won but didn't.

TTom

    -1,
    You bring the wimmins, I'll bring the Bushmills ( 75 up heah)
    
    
    MikeL
    

Yeah, its about the same down here.

In fact, I think I've about had enough.

I'm outta here.

TTom

>    -1,
>    You bring the wimmins, I'll bring the Bushmills ( 75 up heah)
    

Fair enough.  I think I can scrounge up a few willing participants,
especially when they hear about the smooth mellow taste of Bushmills.

If we leave now we can meet TTom halfway (somewhere in Delaware
perhaps?).......


'Saw
    

    I'll talk to Steph...
    

>
>    I'll talk to Steph...
>    

Well, if you do any more than that you'll be late.......

USA Today has put a no line on Temple since they were consecutively
drubbed by California, BC and even Rutgers.
                                          
TTom

    BC favored, hmm must be home field giving them that edge.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

	Anybody catch the line on the Penguins-Bruins game tonight?


	billl

>Saturday:
>	ARMY		1	navy		



We'll miss this game, as we'll be on the pier at Electric Boat for the
launching of the USS Hartford.  If there is any justice, Navy will win....


8^)


'Saw

Army is listed as the home team but it's being played at East Rutherford,
NJ, so there's no home court advantage.

During the season Navy looked like the better team but that ain't saying
that much. One can only wonder when the Service Academies downgrade their
program to 2A like the Ivy League did.

TTom

    When was the lasted time ANY NFL team was favored by 24 points?????
    
    JaKe
    

    When were the Broncos last in the SB?

This line watcher cain't remember anything as big as 24 in the NFL.
College regularly has 30 point plus lines but usually, anything this big
gets a lot of money on the dog.

Digging through some past records, I only could find a 20 point spread
twice:

In 92, San Francisco was favored at home by 20 over Tampa Bay and won
the game 21-14 (a big did not cover)

In 91, Buffalo was favored at home by 20 over Indianapolis and won the
game 42-6 (and covered).

TTom

 >>   When were the Broncos last in the SB?


	Tooooooo funny, Brews!

      That hurt Brews,  you being a closet donk fan and saying that....

    TTom,
    
    what about SF against NE in the last 2-3 years late in the
    season? I seem to recall a huge spread but not sure if it was
    at 20 poins.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Speaking of lines, I thought this would be good for a chuckle. 
    Especially the bottom of the list.
    
             <<< COFFEE::USER$DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]POOL_93.NOTE;1 >>>
================================================================================
Note 5.13                        Weekly Results                         13 of 13
                                  -< Week 13 >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Player                    W   L   T  Pts  Avg OUpts
USCTR1::KING               7   7   0  14 0.500     0
SHARE::DERRY               7   7   0  14 0.500     0
PTOVAX::JACOB              7   7   0  14 0.500     0
WMOIS::CHAPALONIS_M        6   6   0  12 0.500     0
FRETZ::HEISER              6   8   0  12 0.429     0
HBAHBA::HAAS               5   7   0  10 0.417     0
MKFSA::LONG                5   9   0  10 0.357     0
MSBCS::BRYDIE              2  12   0   4 0.143     0

  The one thing that I have going in my favor, Heiser is that with your
 track record most people won't believe you.

    Mikey, going 2-12 takes as much genius as going 12-2. You
    should be able to appreciate that. Oh btw when will the Suns ever learn
    how to beat the Bulls in Pheonix??
    
    The Crazy Met
    

      Um, I beleive that game last night was in Chicago...

>    should be able to appreciate that. Oh btw when will the Suns ever learn
>    how to beat the Bulls in Pheonix??
    
    When will you learn how to spell Phoenix?  When will you be able to
    understand the phrase "at Chicago"?
    
    Tommy's lucky that Tom Pfau left DEC.  He always posted the best/worst
    of each week.  Tommy would've been famous.

  Yeah, it's a good thing I have "friends" like you to post it in here.
 

    Serves you right for doubting my pick of ASU over UCLA.

    Phoenix was a much closer than 2-12 last year.  In fact, they were only
    a missed 3-pointer away.

    
     So you've gone from believing that it was "lack of experience"
    that cost you the title to "a missed 3-pointer away". Another
    6 months or so and you'll have yourself believing that you act-
    ually won it. Pretty fertile mind there, Mikey. Between the made 
    up trivia, the Arizonans that ain't and the creative excuses - you're
    a regular Isaac Ass-imov.

>    a regular Isaac Ass-imov.
    
    Wooo, playing hardball, eh?  A dead, anal-retentive heathen.  

  No, Mike. I've just been busted about that 2-12 all week by two guys
 I work with who are also in the pool. It's getting tiresome. If you 
 wanted to yank my chain you could have sent me mail instead of trying 
 to embarass me publicly. But I've been guilty of the same kind of be-
 havior so I guess I don't have a whole lot of room to beef.

    Well then, I apologize.  I didn't realize that it was such a sore spot.
    Next time I'll just hang tough and try to rise above the temptation.
    
>     So you've gone from believing that it was "lack of experience"
>    that cost you the title to "a missed 3-pointer away". Another
    
    The best marksman (which Paxson no longer is) hit at a 40% rate from 
    downtown.  It was a roll of the dice that paid off for them.  The odds
    were against them.

    Actually if I remember corectly phoenix made a 3 pt to send game 3 into
    overtime which they eventually won.  So Phoenix was 3 ptr away from 
    being swept....
    							MairB :-)

    Nebraska by 17 over FSU? is this a typo
    or has someone gone completely insane???
    
    The Crazy Met
    

ooops!

Would you believe FSU favored by 17?

TTom

    FSU by 17 - well I believe that it is that high so
    some folks will bet on Nebraska, but that is a bit high.
    And ND only favored by 6; less than a TD? I would guess
    that the money will pour in on ND and te spread will move up in the
    next few weeks.
    
    FSU spread could move down.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Yeah, I checked this one.

I guess the feeling is that Alabama may not have Barker back and has lost
3 defensive players. One, Langham, is definitely out having been declared
ineligible. If'n any or all of those come back this line may move.

TTom

 Fla St already gagged once this year on the "game of the year", who's to
 say they can't do it twice? Given Bowden's track record for leaving the
 job unfinished I'd say the chances are pretty good. NU should be playing 
 their filberts off cause 17 points is such an insult...but then again it's
 Doc Tom on the other sideline.....

 mike

    A 17-point spread for a game that's supposed to decide the national
    championship pretty much sums up the sad state of affairs for college
    football.
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    I think ACChris' comment explains why the Heels are favored.  All those
    Heel fans are just blown away seeing the Heels in a bowl that they have
    just opened their wallets.

Believe it or not, I'm finding I agree with ACC Chris on this Tide-Heels
game.

'Bama is in disarray, decimated by injuries, trying to survive to the 
end of the season.   I wouldn't be surprised by a Bowl loss to the Heels...

A far cry from last season, unfortunately.  But there is always nexted
year!


'SAw

    'Saw lasted years 'Bama season oughta keep Tide fans happy for *years*. 
    Watching them absolutely blow out the cocky 'Canes had to be a SPORTS
    highlight for me, and witnessing that 'Bama defensive back chase down,
    catch, and then strip that Miami wide receiver *clean* of the ball was
    one of the greatest plays I've ever seen,  ..... PERIOD!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

>
>    'Saw lasted years 'Bama season oughta keep Tide fans happy for *years*. 
>    Watching them absolutely blow out the cocky 'Canes had to be a SPORTS
>    highlight for me, and witnessing that 'Bama defensive back chase down,
>    catch, and then strip that Miami wide receiver *clean* of the ball was
>    one of the greatest plays I've ever seen,  ..... PERIOD!
    
I still get a stiffie when I think about that game 8^)

I had helped my brother move his girlfriend that day, and I got "prepped"
by having a very nice lunch and a couple of good brews in front of a 
roaring fire in a pub near her new apartment.

By the time I got home that evening, I was tired, and actually thought of
not watching the game.  But, self-discipline kicked in and I was treated
to one of the best games I've ever seen.

The amazing thing was how much Toretta's stock dropped because of that
one game......


What a memory!

'Saw

    Alabama's offense is pretty bad, but there's still enough left there on
    defense to take out North Carolina.  They fell apart late, but 'Bama 
    outplayed Florida for quite a while in the SEC Championship game,
    bottling up one of the country's best offenses for most of the game. 
    That unintentional fake punt where 'Bama was all over the punter and
    was looking at a huge blocked kick or sack only to let him escape for a
    30-yard gain was an absolutely devastating turnabout on one play,
    immediately followed up by the TD bomb.  On the other hand, if you
    can't score on Florida, you can't score on just about anyone, including
    UNC.  Watching David Palmer run around all over the field without any 
    pre-conceived idea of what he's going to do is pure enjoyment, but it's
    not a very effective offensive scheme.
    
    glenn
     

    
    	Ayup, Bama is banged up but I doubt Stallings is going to
    	let them sleepwalk through their bowl game with NC.
    
    	That game last year was one to behold that's for sure.
    	I just loved watching Bama run it right down the 'Canes
    	trash talking throats!
    
    Claybone

	The gallant knight tosses the gauntlet at the feet of the dastardly
	villian, but before the villian can get to it, who's that, the town
	fool scoops up the gauntlet.  The duel is on...

    
    HEY! I resemble that remark...

    >            -< And no comment on WVU 6pt underdog to Fla? >-
    
    In another season, it might be bigger (it'd be 10 if Tennessee were
    representing the SEC).  We've heard the criticisms of the Big-10 all 
    season long, but relative to the pre- and early-season rankings I 
    think the SEC is the truly overrated conference.  They just don't 
    seem to be playing that usual hard-nosed, hard-hitting defense in the 
    SEC this year.  Only Auburn really met or exceeded expectations, and 
    I think their season was just a bit fluky too, aided by the overall 
    weak schedule and by not having to play Tennessee.  Florida seems to 
    be the standard (they beat Tennessee; lost a close, high-scoring 
    shoot-out to Auburn) and a team like Florida St. just flicked them 
    aside on their home field like a mere nuisance.  The SEC might still 
    be the best but it hasn't been like some other recent seasons...
    
    glenn
    

    And what will be the duration of the pi$$ing and moaning because /er
    fails to come thru on the REAL p_name that was bet on?????
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    	Hey RaKe, this note is for those not afraid to make a mainly wager,
    so take it back over to the Squeeler note!
    
    				/Don

    
    >>	Hey RaKe, this note is for those not afraid to make a mainly wager,
    >>so take it back over to the Squeeler note!
    
    And why then are you in here, wuss????  A REAL man would have said to
    hell wif the spread and plunked down his cash/p_name wifout a
    pointspread, but you, knowing the PATS was pitiful and would find a way
    to lose no matter what, weren't ballsy enuf to go straight up, were
    ya?????
    
    JaKe
    

    
    
    >>							You said the Squeelers
    >>would demolish the Patriots but wouldn't give a mesely 10 points.  If
    
    Never used the words "demolish" "Maul" er anything like that, just said
    they'd kick the Patsies into the river, what, with the lousy calls, and
    the down to the lasted second thang, is about what happened.
    
    I've never dealt my p-name bets in pernts, and never intend to, either. 
    If'n I don't think it's a fair bet straight up, I just bow out, I
    don't cry fer pernts.
    
    JaKe
    

    	Gee RaKe, what a wimpy reply.  I think you should send that Magic
    Lantern shirt to somebody more deserving.  Like Brews.
    
    				/Don

	re Fla St-NE spread:

	and #1 is the underdog....go figure.

>	re Fla St-NE spread:

Billllll,

We appreciate your contribution about the Pats are but they're hardly #1
anywhere this side of Foxboro. ;-)

But yest, it is a little strange to see the #1 rated Huskers as a nearly
prohibitive dog. I guess them voters in the polls aren't bettors.
Remember, it's the wagering that driving this number up, up, and away.

TTom

    AT least ND finally is favored by at least a TD.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Houston only 7 against the Jets??
if Eagles still have a shot at the playoffs
on Monday night I would love to be able to
get those points.

The Crazy Met

Moon will probably not play against the Jets.

With the Philly game, taking the points may not be that bad a_idea. San
Francisco has nothing to win or gain by this game. Don't be too surprised
to see a lot of Bono instead of Young, who was yanked in the Oilers game.

TTom

Couple of updates:

Friday:
	minnesota	7	WASHINGTON	

Sunday:
	miami		0	NEW ENGLAND	

> miami		0	NEW ENGLAND	

this is a joke, right???

The Crazy Met

Noop. Right outta USA Today, by Danny Sheridan.

I guess this reflects the fact that the Dolphins coulda clinched by
winning any one of the lasted 4 games and dint. First, they lose at home
to the Giants, then the Steelers, and then Buffalo. Then they get drubbed
at San Diego.

The lasted time Miami won was courtesy of the Leon Lett gaff on Turkey
Day. Also, the QB position that had been seamlessly proficient, now aint
getting the job done. Mitchell looked real bad at the Chargers.

TTom

    I expected to see Miami remain a small (>=3) favorite but pickem is the
    realistic spread.  There is no free lunch in the betting world in this
    mega information society.
    
    Last week was the last chance to bank it big on a pats team with a top
    defense and top offensive line.  Perhaps this game in Miami would see
    some of the pat's defensive secondary weaknesses slow them down.  But,
    in winter weather, Miami will need a miracle.
    
    A realistic line would be pats +6.
    

>  A realistic line would be pats +6.

yabbut the line is "designed" for an even distribution of bets. reality often
has nothing to do with it.

The Crazy Met

    Once again Danny Sheridan strikes!  
    
    Miami is an 8 point favorite with Vegas.
    
    Jimbo

What is Sheridan's line on Miami?

TTom,

Of those in the Bowl contest how many took A&M and how many took
Arizona??

The Crazy Met

I ain't tallied up all them bowl entries yet. I think I'll do it while
taping Howard Stern's New Year's extravaganza.

On the Miami line, I checked with 2 other sources: the local paper and
the Raleigh paper. Both of them agree with Sheridan/USA Today and have
this as a pick.

Also, ESPN is trying to spread a rumor that the Orange Bowl line moved to
14 but all I see is 17 or so.

TTom

    The Ontarios lottery pays winners by 4 or more.  3 or less is a tie.
    
    So Dallas would pay (vs $1.00) 	1.15 to win
    	Green Bay			3.60 to win
    		A tie			3.25
    
    My approximations.
    
    I thought I had a nice fat winner and then looked the next day and
    found I had taken PITTSBURGH  AGHHH   over Seattle - how could I have
    done that (In a hurry I guess).

College Hoops, where lines, spreads and odds are basic parts of the hype:

	PURDUE		3	indiana		
	SYRACUSE	10	st. john's	
	massachusetts	6	DEPAUL		
	BOSTON COLLEGE	5	pittsburgh	
	SMU		0	texas tech	
	kentucky	5	FLORIDA		

> PURDUE		3	indiana

when is the last time this happened??

The Crazy Met

              <<< Note 29.321 by METSNY::francus "Mets in '94" >>>

> PURDUE		3	indiana

>>when is the last time this happened??
    
    
    Probably the last time was the Troy Lewis led Boilers in the late 80's. 
    Purdue was favored quite a few times in West Lafayette in the late 70's
    - early 80's with the likes of Joe Barry Carrol and Jerry Sichting(sp).
    
    BTW, Purdue shouldn't be favored tonight IMO.  I'd take IU and the
    points.
    
    - Rope

    If I thought betting lines had any place in college hoops I'd be
    awfully tempted to jump on Florida (at home) getting five (5).  The
    Gators have been one tough unit this year, led by their extraordarily
    tough coach Lonnie Kruger.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Crisp

you would lose if you did that.

The Crazy Met

    Actually, the Chicago Trib lists Purdue as a six point favorite
    tonight.
    
    
    Spud

hey TTom, just what I said the over would be.

50 for over, wow - highest ever for a SB??

The Crazy Met

By popular demand:

	AFC		0	NFC		
	over/under:	40

Odds *AGAINST* winning Atlantic Coast Conference tournament:

	No Carolina	  2:1
	Duke		  2:1
	Wake Forest	  6:1
	Georgia Tech	 10:1
	Virginia	 25:1
	Maryland	 30:1
	Clemson		100:1
	Florida St	100:1
	NC State	250:1

I love the overs in the Michigan/Maryland and Arkansas/Tulsa games...


mike

hmm, no 10+ point spreads. would have expected Arkansa/Tulsa to be higher.
Also Duke/Marquette and Michigan/Maryland.

The Crazy Met

>I love the overs in the Michigan/Maryland and Arkansas/Tulsa games...

 It would take a 90-82 score in the Arkansas/Tulsa game to make the over.
 Their earlier meeting this year was 93-90, in overtime, so I think that
 the line is right about where the score will be.  To me, it would be very
 hard to bet the over on that game.

I agree Rick, that this the tougher of the two lines to cover but either
team is capable of putting 100 on the board and given that Tulsa is better
now than earlier and after the Georgetown slowdown, Arkansas should relish
running up and down I feel good about it. Of course I won't be putting any 
$$$$ on it so it makes it easier to say I love the line........

;^)

mike 

    I would bet the house on 'nova getting 2+.  this is a strange line or
    is it SEC hysteria

    Must be that same SEC hysteria that has 2 teams in the NCAA Final 4.
    
    :-),
    
    Rope

    I should have said SEC fever.  But its a long way from the likes of
    Arkansas to Vandy.
    
    Villanova is an up and coming outfit who started slowly this year. 
    Perhaps we'll sea an exciting game with NIT refs letting them play.

    >> I should have said SEC fever...
    
    Just giving you a hard time :-)  Vanderbilt was a huge disappointment in
    the SEC this season.  With McCaffery and Lawson returning they were
    expected to challenge for the Easten Division Title.  Kentucky had 2
    easy games with Vandy this year which was hardly the case a year
    earlier even with Mashburn, Dent, Brown, etc.
    
    - Rope

the way the Wolves have been playing against the contenders they should
start at 20 point underdogs.

The Crazy Met

> MILWAUKEE	4	detroit	
game of the night?? :-)

Crazy,

It's professional sports at crunch times so you gotta figure anything
can happen. Some teams are playing for playoff positions and some are
playing for lottery positions. Who ever needs it the most won't get it
done is how it usually works...

TTom

    TCM's correct.  The Woofies are down by 20 after the first quarter
    night in and night out these days.
    
    
    Spud

I feel better now that you're on their bandwagon...

TTom

Odds against winning NBA Championship
	Seattle		   3:1
	New York	   5:1
	Phoenix		   7:1
	Houston		   7:1
	Atlanta		   8:1
	Chicago		   9:1
	San Antonio	  10:1
	Orlando		  50:1
	Cleveland	  75:1
	Utah		 100:1
	Golden State	 150:1
	Portland	 250:1
	Indiana		 500:1
	New Jersey	 750:1
	Miami		1000:1
	Denver		5280:1 (sic)

NY that much higher than Atlanta?? that doesn't make sense.

The Crazy Met

I guess, since we're dealing with opinions of the betters rather than
trying to predict the outcome, this spread is skewed because of Pat
Riley's previous experiences.

TTom

    ...and the Knicks have one of the best defenses.

re: .354

you meant bettors, right??

The Crazy Met

    I like the over in the Orlando game, and the under in every other
    game.
    
    That's if I were a betting man, of course!
    
    NAZZ

    I have a theory that the nba will want to showcase Orlando and Shaq.
    
    I have picked them as surprise in East but once in finals easy pickings
    for seattle in 6.
    
    Let's hope I'm way too cynical about nba

re: .359

Based on the stuff flying back and
forth in 27, cynicism seems to be the prevalent mood today.
So welcome to the crowd.

The Crazy Met

      Denver is on Sport Channel (regional) or pay per view in Denver area.
    
      Pay per view $$$ goes to charity.  Not sure why TBS/TNT isn't picking
    it up.  Maybe they thought the Seattle would have won it by now.
    
      Tim

    Braves must be on..
    

      Great,  more baseball,  and Basketball not over yet.
    
      Tj

PP	Horse		Odds
-------------------------------------
 1	Soul Of The Matter	20-1
 2	Valiant Nature		12-1
 3	Powis Castle		30-1
 4	Holly Bull		 8-5
 5	Strodes Creek		 8-1
 6	Go For Gin		15-1
 7	Tabasco Cat		 6-1
 8	Brocco			 3-1
 9	Southern Rhythm		15-1
10	Blumin Affair		15-1
11	Kandaly			30-1
12	Ulises			30-1 (Field)
13	Mahogany Hall		30-1 (Field)
14	Smilin Singin Sam	30-1 (Field)
15	Meadow Flight		30-1 (Field)

>> 6	Go For Gin		15-1

	Now how can anyone in ::SPROTS not be pulling for this horse?!



	billl

    re .368:
    
    I can't belive I made this call days before the race and wasn't 
    smart enough to put a dime on it!
    
    
    
    billl

    He paid generously to boot.  In a year of hunches (I'm thinking of bc's
    3) this was a natural.

   >> In a year of hunches (I'm thinking of bc's
   >> 3)                                    ^^^^
      ^^
    
    Awww shaddap already willya!
    
    MikeL
    

    If I were a betting man, I'd mortgage my house on the UNDER on all
    four of these games.
    
    NAZZ

Here's the scoring for the firsted round:
 
                                              Series  Conf    All
Miami           93  Atlanta         88   181
Atlanta        104  Miami           86   190
Miami           90  Atlanta         86   176
Atlanta        103  Miami           89   192
Atlanta        102  Miami           91   193  186.40
------
New York        91  New Jersey      80   171
New York        90  New Jersey      81   171
New Jersey      93  New York        92   185
New York       102  New Jersey      92   194  180.25
------
Chicago        104  Cleveland       96   200
Chicago        105  Cleveland       96   201
Chicago         95  Cleveland       92   187  196.00
------
Indiana         89  Orlando         88   177
Indiana        103  Orlando        101   204
Indiana         99  Orlando         86   185  188.67  187.83
------
Seattle        106  Denver          82   188
Seattle         97  Denver          87   184
Denver         110  Seattle         93   203
Denver          94  Seattle         85   179
Denver          98  Seattle         94   192  189.20
------
Houston        114  Portland       104   218
Houston        115  Portland       104   219
Portland       118  Houston        115   233
Houston         92  Portland        89   181  212.75
------
Phoenix        111  Golden State   104   215
Phoenix        117  Golden State   111   228
Phoenix        140  Golden State   133   273  238.67
------
San Antonio    106  Utah            89   195
Utah            96  San Antonio     84   180
Utah           105  San Antonio     72   177
Utah            95  San Antonio     90   185  184.25  206.22  197.02
------

wow 20 pts/game more scoring in the West.

The Crazy Met

> DENVER		2	utah	

who'd have thunk it.

The Crazy Met

>> DENVER		2	utah	

>who'd have thunk it.

  I believe this is the first time they've been the favorite in a playoff 
  game. Go Nuggets !!

	Keith

The way Utah is reeling and fighting, this could be a rout for the
Nuggets.

TTom

TTom,

maybe you can answer this. At the GR last night we were talking about teams
coming back from 3-0 deficits. It has happened in the NHL but not in the
NBA or in baseball. The question was how many teams that were down 3-0
managed to even get to a game 6? I know the Islanders got to a game 7 against
the Flyers in 1975 after being down 3-0 (also the year they did beat the Pens
after being down 3-0).

The Crazy Met

Sorry, Crazy, I aint no kinda hookie expert. We dint have a lot of it
back there in West Virginee.

TTom

I was asking about basketball.

The Crazy Met

>... It has happened in the NHL but not in the
>NBA or in baseball. ...

This seemed to be a statement of fack that includes basketball.

But I don't know this one either.

The stat of the day is that no team has won a_NBA playoff series after
losing the first 2 home games since '69 when the Lakers pulled one out.
Houston could repeat this one.

TTom

Lakers did it against the Warriors(?)
In baseball the 1985 Royals and 1986 Mets are the only teams to pull
that off.


As far as coming back from 3-0, has never happened in the NBA.

The Crazy Met

    Whats the line for Jazz-Nuggets game 7?
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Tonight's NBA, round the next:

	HOUSTON		6	utah		9	TNT
	over/under	188
	series odds	Houston, 5:2

Second Third Round:
	NEW YORK	5	indiana		8	TNT
	over/under	178
	series odds	New York, 5:2

NBA:
	HOUSTON		6	utah		9	TNT
	over/under	187

NBA Finals, Wednesday:
	HOUSTON		6	new york	
	over/under	181

	Game 1 odds	Houston, 5:2
	Series odds	Houston, 2:1

    How anyone can bet on preseason football is beyond me.

I think it's more a matter of everyone wanting to "play" some football.

Preseason wagering, while arguably a shaky prospect at best, is a
tradition since they started televising these games.

TTom

    reminds me of the guy that bet four afternoon football games, lost them
    all, then the four late games, lost them all too.  So his friend says
    
    "There's a hockey game at 8, why don't you try to recover your money on
    it"
    
    The guy responded "You stupid idiot, I don't know nothin about hockey"

    
  >> How anyone can bet on preseason football is beyond me.

     In one barroom in town several patrons had a pool on which
     famous old geezer would kick off first. One guy had Frank
     Sinatra, another had Ronald Reagan, another had Mickey Rooney,
     etc. Some people will bet on anything.
    

>     In one barroom in town several patrons had a pool on which
>     famous old geezer would kick off first. One guy had Frank
>     Sinatra, another had Ronald Reagan, another had Mickey Rooney,
>     etc. Some people will bet on anything.

When I was in the fire department, if a firefighter got cut, we'd have
a pool on how many stitches the guy would need.

We'd bet on whether or not folks would make it when they got hauled in
on the ambulance....

It sounds gruesome, but in this case it was a way of dealing with some
heavy duty things......


'Saw

    

  ... and then there are the sailors who bet on which link in the chain will
stop at a certain point when they drop anchor.

  And of course if all else fails, find a couple crows sitting on a fence and
bet on which one will take off 1st.

  George

    Dinah Shore was a favorite there for a while... Bob Hope's got to be
    up soon..
    

Meantime, George Burns is like the Eveready Bunny....

    .399 Thats a great one...
    
    I use to work in a sub shop in high school and one of the managers
    was also a small time bookey...  I was having a good weekend (Up about
    300) so he bet me $100 that a girl would walk in the sub shop next, I
    took it and made another quick 100 when a guy walked thru the door...
    
    								mab

    People seem to be divided on those who remember their losers and those
    who remember their winners.
    
    Myself, I had the raiders in the miraculous reception game

    Albany's an underdog?  Take the over in this game... and the 'birds...
    

    anyone have the TV Schedule for this weekend's preseason games ?

Almost another Monday Night Football:

	KANSAS CITY	6	chicago		

    An early prediction from IMJIMBO.  Give the 16.5 points and laugh
    all the way to the bank.  Huskers by about 38.
    
    Jimbo

guess it's time to bet the house on WVU :-)

The Crazy Met

I'm with Jimbo on this one. I don't know about 30 but I don't see the
Mountaineers stopping Nebraska at all. So about the onliest chance they
have is to keep matching scores.

TTom

    hmm....they said the same thing when WVU went to Oklahoma for the first
    game of the season a few years back (that they were going to get blown
    out). I think the line is pretty accurate.

    
	>> MIAMI		nl	new england	Anybody got a line?
	
           The Boston Globe has it at Miami giving the Pats 5.

>>	MIAMI		nl	new england	Anybody got a line?

	That's probably because Bledsoe spent the night in the hospital.



	billl

    
    
    
            So, seeing that Zolak is the better QB does that mean the line
    will be at 3? :-)
    
    
    Chap

      Make that 34
    
      I'll take washington to cover.  
    
      I haven't had a chance to get in here this week.
    
      Tim
    
      Quaser::Jacksonta

    Hmmmmmmm.  Buffalo started the week as a 1 pt favorite!
    
    NAZZ

Nazz,

They be gettin some bad ink about their lack of offenseive line.
Apparently, they're still shuffling it.

TTom

    Kelley had some kind of injury in the Jets game.  That kind of movement
    usually indicates doubt about the qb

How 'bout Buffalo and Denver both losing. Maybe that's a_under too.

TTom

    Duke vs. Army is the Thursday night game.  I can hardly wait......
    
    Jimbo

FWIW, the early line was 10 but has moved to 15. Somebody has some
interest in it, albeit on the Duke side.

TTom

Still can't believe Buffalo is an underdog again this week. When is
the last time they were underdogs in consecutive weeks? 

The Crazy Met

    
    Buffalo's finally a favorite by 8 over the 'Donks. The BC/Pitt game has
    NL because BC hasn't decided who is going to start at QB with Hartsell
    out this week.
    
    Ron

    Amazing that only 4 NFL home teams are the favorites this week.  Looks
    like that bye week in Denver is gonna be hell for Wade.

Florida by 16 over Auburn???????? Have they gone bonkers.

why nl with NU and KST?

Denver over KC?

The Crazy Met

    	NL on NU/KSU due to the unknown status of Berringer or whomever
    will be the Husker QB. I did see one line that had NU as a 9 point
    favorite, though.
    

>Florida by 16 over Auburn???????? Have they gone bonkers.

There are several reasons that won could infer. Firsted of all, it's at
the Swamp which traditionally is worth about a TD for the Gators. Also,
Auburn has been beaten by the bomb which may make them real vulnerable to
Florida's passing game. 

Finally, one could consider the following scores:

auburn 22, MISSISSIPPI 17
florida 38, MISSISSIPPI 14

AUBURN 30, lsu 26
FLORIDA 42, lsu 18

florida 31, TENNESSEE 0

But, then again, that's why they call it something that you do for
entertainment and fun, only.

TTom

    WSU will beat Nogales Tech.

I'll take Temple +28

The Crazy Met

    >>I'll take Temple +28
    
    Whatsamatta Craze, haven't lost a p-name bet in the last month
    and feeling lonely?
    
    
    billl

Danny Sheridan's/USA Today odds against winning the Heisman Trophy:

Rashaan Salaam, Colorado	2:1
Ki-Jana Carter, Penn St		 2:1
Napoleon Kaufman, Washington	 3:1
Lawrence Phillips, Nebraska	 4:1
Tyrone Wheatley, Michigan	 6:1
Eric Zeier, Georgia		 7:1
Kordell Steward, Colorado	10:1
Kerry Collings, Penn St		15:1
Chad May, Kansas St		20:1
Steve McNair, Alcorn St		25:1
Jay Barker, Alabama		50:1
Sherman Williams, Alabama	50:1

    Did I ever tell you the story about how that award was named after me?

> Did I ever tell you the story about how that award was named after me?


I think so.  Something about always rooting for whoever is currently the
best?  Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk...

Your neighbor,

Greg

    yeah, thanks a lot neighbor!
    
    I think you confused the Heisman Award with the Doc 00:00
    Bandwagoneer Trophy.

    
        Every ::SPORTster knows that The Heisermain Award is given
       out annually to that noter who brags about his team's offseason
       moves, gloats over his team's pre-season record, raves about
       their regular season performance, predicts great things for
       the playofss, loses heart when things get rough, practically
       slits his/her wrists when that team loses and six months later
       tries to explain that they really should have won the titile 
       but were either jobbed out of it or the other team was lucky.
       Groaner with his Browns is this year's frontrunner for the award.

    re.464:
    
    Tommy, you slay me!
    
    
    billl

    
    
       :-)

>        Every ::SPORTster knows...
    
    This is your first clue that you don't have one.
    
    glad to help,
    Mike

early big game line:

        NEBRASKA        0	colorado	

    Have to love that line.  Nebraska not giving points at home.  I will
    not put the NC jinx on the Huskers though.

so that means that on a neutral field CU would be favored by 3??

The Crazy Met

    ALso, all the rags I've seen have the line of the Pgh-Arizona game at 
    Arizona being favored by 2 over the STEELERS.
    
    JaKe
    

    sleepin at the switch 8*)  If the contestants had all sent me
    their picks before 3pm on friday I would have checked then.  Since
    I had to wait for =Bob= ,oops, I didn't check until now
    
    Jimbo

    
    >>that the human bowling pin was claiming was a free win for the 
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Groaner, leave yer family out of this, huh??
    
    JaKe
    
    

>    Arizona favored over Pittsburgh, is this the same Arizona team
>    that the human bowling pin was claiming was a free win for the 
>    MIGHTY DAWGS!?
    
    To be fair, it isn't the same AZ team.  They've made many changes since 
    then, one of which is that the human bowling pin finally realized who his
    best QB was.

I guess I might as well show the independents, too:

	boston college	4	LOUISVILLE	
	FLORIDA		29	southern miss	
	air force	14	ARMY		
	AUBURN		16	east carolina	
	MISSISSIPPI	8	memphis		
	TULANE		9	navy		
	NOTRE DAME	bye
	TULSA		bye

The Atlanta-San Diego game is still showing both ways. 

USA Today has Atlanta favored by 1 while the local rag has the Chargers
favored by 1.

I'm sticking with the Atlanta -1 cause that's the one I usually use.

TTom

From "America's Line" printed in today's Worcester T&G:

Vikings		2.5	PATRIOTS
CHEIFS		3	Chargers
DOLPHINS	7	Bears
EAGLES		6.5	Browns
GIANTS		pick	Arizona
SAINTS		2.5	Falcons
BENGALS		1	Oilers
49ERS		3	Cowboys
PACKERS		6	Jets
BRONCOS		6	Seahawks
Raiders		3	RAMS
LIONS		10	Bucaneers

Monday
STEELERS	1.5	Bills

    I'll use ttom's per usual.
    
    A catholic parley seems in order topped with NE Pats; now I need one
    more to fill out my card, 49ers?
    
    bte

>                   -< notre dame and bc look good this week >-

Hey be ecuminical and throw in Brigham Young and Texas Christian.

Too bad it aint hoops cause there's a bunch of them cath'lics.

TTom

    
    It's a sad sign for my Giants when they are 2 point dogs to the Oilers.
    
    brews

> NY JETS	1.5	miami	

what planet are the odds makers living on???

The Crazy Met

I've got a buddy going to Laughlin (Nev) on Friday...  Does anybody
have the o/u lines for this weekend?  Talking parlay-o-plenty.  Leftover
turkey, football, and real live betting tickets... oh yeah.

Thanks,

Greg

I double checked cause I've been knowd to have thangs swapped around.

But this one is how it's listed a couple of places. The local paper has
it as the Jets favored by 2.

Maybe it's cause of the history of success of the Jets over Miami, the
fack that Jets won lasted week and Miami lost and that Miami is basically
decimated with injuries.

TTom

    Michigan is lucky they don't have to face ASU again.

Can I ask a really stupid question, that has always puzzled me; how do teams
qualify for the various bowls, and are the bowls ranked in prestige?

Cheers,

Mike

1. It's all in who knows who and on the other side you got favoritism.

2. It's all about money, who has the most, who can bring in the most and
who will pay the most.

3. Then there's Notre Dame which some people think take advantage of them
poor ol 'bowls people when in fact they is the one being coopted (see
point 2).

4. Random selection of teams with 6 or more wins.

TTom

Mike, if you were looking for something comparable to qualifying to
play football in Europe (win your premiership, win your cup, finish
in the top 2 or 3 or 4), you were bound to be disappointed.

Some bowl actually do have well-defined qualification measures: the
granddaddy of them all, the Rose Bowl of Pasadena, California, is
explicitly for the champions of two particular conferences, the
mostly Midwestern Big 10 and the Western (Calif., Oregon, Washington,
Arizona) Pac 10.  Others are for one champion and an invitee, the
desperate hope being to produce a playoff for the mythical national
championship (MNC).  Others are for two invitees, typically schools
that have not won their conference but that are good enough to
produce a promising matchup, a good gate, and high TV ratings.

Many of these bowls have sprung up since I left the US 20 years ago,
perhaps as many as half of them.  Obviously, the appetite of the TV
public is there.  Millions are prepared to spend the holiday season
glued to the tube, watching 20-year-old behemoths of moderate
athletic accomplishment crash into each other.

Somehow, in this context, H.L. Mencken's famous remark comes to
mind, "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence
of the American people."

Steve

Date	Time	TV	Bowl/location	Matchup
-----------------------------------------------
Dec 15	9pm	ESPN	Las Vegas	Big West #1 vs MAC #1
			Las Vegas	UNLV vs Central Michigan

Dec 25  3:30pm  ABC     Aloha           Big 8 #3 vs at-large
                        Honolulu        Kansas St vs Boston College
 
Dec 27	9pm	Raycom	Freedom		PAC 10 #3 vs WAC #2
			Anaheim		Arizona vs Utah

Dec 28	8pm	ESPN	Independence	at-large vs at-large
			Shreveport	Virginia vs TCU

Dec 29	8pm	ESPN	Copper		Big 8 #4 vs WAC #3
			Tuscon		Oklahoma vs BYU

Dec 30	2:30pm	CBS	Sun		coalition vs coalition
			El Paso		Texas vs No Carolina

Dec 30	7:30pm	TBS	Gator		SEC #3 vs coalition
			Gaineville	Tennessee vs Va Tech

Dec 30	9pm	ESPN	Holiday		WAC #1 vs Big10 #3
			San Diego	Colorado St vs Michigan

Dec 31	1pm	ESPN	Liberty		Liberty alliance vs at-large
			Memphis		East Carolina vs Illinois

Dec 31	8pm	ESPN	Alamo		SWC #3 vs PAC 10 #4
			San Antonio	Baylor vs Washington St

Jan 1	8pm	NBC	Orange		Big 8 #1 vs coalition
			Miami		Nebraska vs Miami-Fl

Jan 1	8pm	ESPN	Peach		ACC #3 vs SEC #4
			Atlanta		NC State vs Mississippi St

Jan 2	11am	ESPN	Hall of Fame	ACC #4 vs Big10 #4
			Tampa		Duke vs Wisconsin

Jan 2	1:30pm	CBS	Carquest	Big East #3 vs SEC #5
			Miami		West Virginia vs So Carolina

Jan 2	1pm	NBC	Cotton		SWC #1 vs coalition
			Dallas		Texas Tech vs Southern Cal

Jan 2	1pm	ABC	Citrus		SEC #2 vs Big 10 #2
			Orlando		Florida-Alabama loser vs Ohio St

Jan 2	4:30pm	NBC	Fiesta		coalition vs coalition
			Tempe		Colorado vs Notre Dame

Jan 2	4:50pm	ABC	Rose		PAC 10 #1 vs Big 10 #1
			Pasadena	Oregon vs Penn St

Jan 2	8:30pm	ABC	Sugar		SEC #1 vs coalition
			New Orleans	Florida-Alabama winner vs Florida St

Thanks for the help. Now I understand, at least in a head-shaking,
eyebrows-raising kind of way. 8-)

And I thought qualification for the UEFA Cup was complicated.

Mike

Local action:

	NO CAROLINA	19	so carolina	
	CINCINNATI	7	temple		

    hmm so Nebraska still gets little respect, 2 point dogs. then again in
    Miami that makes sense.
    
    The Crazy met
    

Yeah, the Husker-Hurricane game is at Miami's home field, something that
clearly should be ruled out if'n they wanna do the AMNC properly.

TTom

    
    
    
    So who's running the bowl contest?????

I'll do it again, if requested.

I say we skip that there Las Vegas bowl and use next Tuesday's USA Today
line. That would give us enough time since the firsted bowl to consider
would be the Aloha Bowl on Dec 25. We'll put it all in 148.

We could close the entries on Friday Dec 23. All entries have to be sent
by mail. Replies to 148 won't count.

The usual.

TTom

	 1. NY JETS		 2. detroit		+3
	 3. over	40	 4. under		38

	 5. DALLAS		 6. cleveland		+10
	 7. over	41	 8. under		39

	 9. GREEN BAY		10. chicago		+4
	11. over	38	12. under		36

	13. BUFFALO		14. minnesota		+3
	15. over	42	16. under		40

	17. PITTSBURGH		18. philadelphia	+7
	19. over	39	20. under		37

	21. NY GIANTS		22. cincinnati		+7
	23. over	38	24. under		36

	25. NEW ENGLAND		26. indianapolis	+7
	27. over	40	28. under		38

	29. la rams	-2	30. TAMPA BAY		-2
	31. over	42	32. under		40

	33. san francisco	34. SAN DIEGO		+7
	35. over	47	36. under		45

	37. LA RAIDERS		38. denver		+3
	39. over	45	40. under		43

	41. seattle	-2	42. HOUSTON		-2
	43. over	36	44. under		34

	45. ARIZONA		46. washington		+9
	47. over	37	48. under		35

	49. ATLANTA		50. new orleans		+3
	51. over	48	52. under		46

INFORMATION COURTESY OF SPORTS & GAMING NEWSWIRE LINETRACKER UPDATE
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

THURSDAY, DECEMBER 8, 1994 (10:00A PDT UPDATE)

KEY - (*) = Line has moved since last update, (') = Half point, (TC) =
Time Change. (PC) = Pitching Change. X = Game off the board. EV = Even
PK = Pick'em. ISL = ISLAND LINE. BIN = BINION'S. ALL TIMES PACIFIC.

NBA
PRO BASKETBALL
12/08 (THURSDAY)

TIME   #  TEAM     OPEN     ISL    MIR    BIN    HILT  *CP     MGM    BALLY
----   -  ----     ----     ---    ---    ---    ----   --     ---    -----

4:30   1. Pho      5        5      5     5'      5      5'            6
       2. NJN      215      213'   213   214            213

5:00   3. Cha      X        194    X     X       X      X
TBS    4. HOU      X       *5'     X     X       X      X             X
NOTE: HOU CENTER H.OLAJUWON (WRIST) IS "PROBABLE"

5:30   5. Uth      204      204    204   205            205
       6. SAS      EV       1'     1'    1'      2      1'            2

5:30   7. Was      203     *203'   204'  204            204
       8. DAL      3'       4      3'    3'      4      4             3'

7:30   9. Sea      6        6'     7     6'      6'     6'            6'
      10. SAC      204      200'   200'  201            200
NOTE: SAC GUARD B.GRANT (HIP) IS "?"

$

CBB
COLLEGE BASKETBALL
12/08 (THURSDAY)

TIME   #  TEAM              ISL    MIR    BIN    HILT  *CP     MGM    BALLY
----   -  ----              ---    ---    ---    ----   --     ---    -----

0:00  11. Pittsburgh (PAL)                              X
      12. MASSACHUTS (MAK)                              X
NOTE: THIS GAME WAS PLAYED LAST NIGHT !!

4:30  13. Villanova  (VAE)                              156
ESPN  14. N.CAROLINA (NAV) *12     11'   12      12     12            12

4:30  15. Clemson    (CBG)
      16. S.CAROLINA (SBF)  4'     4     4       4'     4             4

4:00  17. Wake Forst (WAD)  9'     9'    9       9      9             10
(TC)  18. RICHMOND   (RAF)

5:15  19. Arkansas   (AAS)  21     21'   21      22     21'           22
      20. SMU        (SAV)

6:35  21. Houston    (HAM)
      22. ARIZONA    (AAQ) *25     25    25      26     26            25

$

NFL
PRO FOOTBALL
12/10 (SATURDAY)

TIME   #  TEAM     OPEN     ISL    MIR    BIN    HILT   CP     MGM    BALLY
----   -  ----     ----     ---    ---    ---    ----   --     ---    -----

9:30   1. Det      39      *38    *37'    38     38    *38    *38    *38
FOX    2. NYJ      3        3      3      3      3      3      3      3

1:00   3. Cle      X        38     38'   *38     38     39     38'
NBC    4. DAL      X        10'    10    *10'    10     10'    10'    10'
NOTE: DAL QB. T.AIKMAN (KNEE) HAS RETURNED TO PRACTICE & MAY START.

$

NFL
PRO FOOTBALL
12/11

TIME   #  TEAM     OPEN     ISL    MIR    BIN    HILT   CP     MGM    BALLY
----   -  ----     ----     ---    ---    ---    ----   --     ---    -----

10:00  5. Chi      36       36    *35    *35     36    *35'    35'    36
       6. GNB      3'       4      4      4      4      4      4      4

10:00  7. Min      41      *40     40'    40     40    *40    *40     40
       8. BUF      3'       3      3'     3'     3'     3'     3'     3

10:00  9. Phi      36      *35    *35    *35     36    *35     35'    36
      10. PIT      5'       5'     6      6'     6      6      6      6

10:00 11. Cin      35       35     35     35     35    *35     34'    34'
      12. NYG      5        6      5'     5'     5      5'     5'     5'

10:00 13. Ind      38      *37    *36'    37     37    *36'    37     37
      14. NWE      6        6      6      6      6      6      6      6

10:00 15. Los      40       40     40     40     40     40     40     40'
      16. TAM      2        2'     2'     2'     2      2'     2      2

1:00  17. Sfo      6        7      7      7      7      7      7      7
      18. SDG      45       45     46     45'    45     45'    45     46

1:00  19. Den      X        X      X      41'           X      X
      20. LAR      X        X      X      3'     X      X      X      X
NOTE: DEN QB J.ELWAY (KNEE) HAS BEEN UPGRADED TO "PROBABLE"

1:00  21. Sea      34       34     33'    34     X      33     33'    33
      22. HOU      2        3      3      3      X      3      3'     3
NOTE: SEA QB R.MIRER (BROKEN HAND) IS "OUT FOR THE SEASON"

1:00  23. Was      34       36     34     34     34'    34     35     34'
      24. ARI      7'       8      7'     7'     7'     7      7      7'

5:00  25. Nor      46       46'    46     46     46     46     46     47
ESPN  26. ATL      4        4'     4      4      4      4      4      4

$

NFL
PRO FOOTBALL
12/12

TIME   #  TEAM     OPEN     ISL    MIR    BIN    HILT   CP     MGM    BALLY
----   -  ----     ----     ---    ---    ---    ----   --     ---    -----

6:00  27. Kan      39       39     39'    39'           40     39     39'
ABC   28. MIA      4        4'     4'     4'     X      5      4'     4'
NOTE: CHECKING STATUS OF KAN QB J.MONTANA.

Of course this is all for amusement purposes only.....8^)

INFORMATION COURTESY OF SPORTS & GAMING NEWSWIRE LINETRACKER UPDATE
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

THURSDAY, DECEMBER 15, 1994 (10:00A PDT UPDATE)

KEY - (*) = Line has moved since last update, (') = Half point, (TC) =
Time Change. (PC) = Pitching Change. X = Game off the board. EV = Even
PK = Pick'em. ISL = ISLAND LINE. BIN = BINION'S. ALL TIMES PACIFIC.

NBA
PRO BASKETBALL
12/15/94 (THURSDAY)

TIME   #  TEAM     OPEN     ISL    MIR    BIN    HILT   CP     MGM    BALLY
----   -  ----     ----     ---    ---    ---    ----   --     ---    -----

4:30   1. Uth      5        4'     5'     4'    *5'     5'            5
       2. WAS      199      200    199    199           198
NOTE: CHECKING ON WAS GUARD R.CHAPMAN (GROIN).

5:00   3. Den      205      202'   204    204           205
TBS    4. MIA      1'       2'     2      2      2      2             1'

5:30   5. Lal      202      203'   202'   202           203
       6. HOU      8        8'     8'     8'     9      8'            9

5:30   7. Bos      209      211'   212'   213           212
       8. DAL      3        3      4      3'     3'     4             4
NOTE: DAL CENTER R.TARPLEY (SUSPENDED) IS "OUT".

7:00   9. Por      207      206'   207'   207           206
      10. SEA      9        8      7'     8     *7      8             8'
NOTE: POR & SEA GUARDS C.DREXLER & K.GILL HAVE RETURNED.

7:30  11. Nyk      2        2'     2'     2'     3      3             2'
      12. SAC      190      190    189'   189           188 

7:30  13. Gsw      6'       6'     7      6'     7      6'            7
      14. LAC      206      202'   204    203           203
NOTE: LAC GUARD T.DEHERE HAS RETURNED.



CFB
COLLEGE FOOTBALL (LAS VEGAS BOWL - AT LAS VEGAS, NV)
12/15/94 (THURSDAY)

TIME   #  TEAM              ISL    MIR    BIN    HILT   CP     MGM    BALLY
----   -  ----              ---    ---    ---    ----   --     ---    -----

6:00   1. Unlv       (NAJ)  53'                 
ESPN   2. C.MICHIGAN (CAQ)  5      X      X      X      X      X      X



NFL
PRO FOOTBALL - WEEK 16
12/17/94 (SATURDAY)

TIME   #  TEAM              ISL    MIR    BIN    HILT   CP     MGM    BALLY
----   -  ----              ---    ---    ---    ----   --     ---    -----

9:30   3. Min               41     41     41     42     41     41     42
FOX    4. DET               1      1'     1'     1'     1'     2      1

1:00   5. Den               47'                  47     47
NBC    6. SFO               16     X      X      15     14'    X      X
NOTE: DEN QB J.ELWAY (KNEE) IS "DAY-TO-DAY".



NFL
PRO FOOTBALL - WEEK 16
12/18/94 (SUNDAY)

TIME   #  TEAM              ISL    MIR    BIN    HILT   CP     MGM    BALLY
----   -  ----              ---    ---    ---    ----   --     ---    -----

10:00  7. Atl               40     40     39     40     39'    40     40
       8. GNB               8      8      7'     7'     7      7      7'
NOTE: AT MILWAUKEE.

1:00   9. Mia               3'     3'     3'     4      4      3'     3'
(TC)  10. IND               42     42     42'    X      42'    41'    42'
NOTE: IND WILL START JIM HARBAUGH AT QB.

10:00 11. Sdg               2      2      2'     1'     2      2      2'
      12. NYJ               37     36'    37     36'    36     37     36'

10:00 13. Nwe               37     37     37     X      37     36'    37
      14. BUF               1      1      1'     2      1      1'     1
NOTE: BUF QB J.KELLY (KNEE) IS "OUT"

1:00  15. Cle               32     31'    32     32     32     32'    31'
(TC)  16. PIT               3'     3'     3'     3'     3'     3      3'

10:00 17. Los               34     33     33     33'    33     33'    33
      18. CHI               6'     6'     7      6'     7      6'     6'

10:00 19. Tam               40     39     39     38'    39     39     39
      20. WAS               2      2      2'     2      2      1'     1'

1:00  21. Hou               34     34     34     X      34     34     34
      22. KAN               9'     10     9'     10     9      9      10'

1:00  23. Nyg               35     35     34'    35'    35     35     34'
      24. PHI               4      4      4      4'     4'     5      4
NOTE: PHI WILL START B.BRISTER AT QB

1:00  25. Cin               33'    34     34     34     34     34     33'
      26. ARI               7'     7      7      7      7      7      7

5:00  27. Lar               7      6'     6'     6'     6      6      6
ESPN  28. SEA               36     36     36'    36'    36     36     36



NFL
PRO FOOTBALL - WEEK 16
12/19/94 (MONDAY)

TIME   #  TEAM              ISL    MIR    BIN    HILT   CP     MGM    BALLY
----   -  ----              ---    ---    ---    ----   --     ---    -----

6:00  29. Dal               10     10     10     10     10     10     10
ABC   30. NOR               45'    45'    46     46     45'    45'    45'

NBA:
	ATLANTA		4	chicago		
	INDIANA		7	charlotte	
	cleveland	2	PHILADELPHIA	
	PHOENIX		6	new york	
	new jersey	5	MINNESOTA	
	orlando		5	GOLDEN STATE	

NBA:
	CHICAGO		5	cleveland	
	PHOENIX		12	washington	
	DENVER		8	boston		

College:
	stanford	9	AMERICAN	
	PITTSBURGH	1	duquesne	@Pittsburgh Civic Center
	ST. LOUIS	16	SMU		

>>	PITTSBURGH	1	duquesne	@Pittsburgh Civic Center
    
    Are you sure that's not "Pittsburgh Civic Arena"?
    
    
    billl

 
 1. dallas                 2  NY GIANTS        +3
 3. over              36   4. under            34
 5. CLEVELAND              6. seattle         +11
 7. over              35   8. under            33
 9. INDIANAPOLIS          10. buffalo          +3
11. over              42  12. under            40
13. green bay             14. TAMPA BAY        +6
15. over              42  16. under            40
17. new england       -2  18. CHICAGO          -2
19. over              38  20. under            36
21. arizona               22. ATLANTA          +3
23. over              39  24. under            37
25. philadelphia      -2  26. CINCINNATI       -2
27. over              37  28. under            35
29. LA RAIDERS            30. kansas city      +4
31. over              39  32. under            37
33. ny jets           -2  34. HOUSTON          -2
35. over              35  36. under            33
37. SAN DIEGO             38. pittsburgh       +4
39. over              37  40. under            35
41. DENVER                42. new orleans      +5
43. over              45  44. under            43
45. LA RAMS               46. washington       +4
47. over              42  48. under            40
49. MIAMI                 50. detroit          +4
51. over              46  52. under            44
53. Boston College    -2  54. Kansas St        -2
55. over              44  56.                  42

Saturday:
	GREEN BAY	5	detroit		12:30pm
	MIAMI		3	kansas city	4pm

Sunday:
	CLEVELAND	3	new england	12:30pm
	MINNESOTA	6	chicago		4pm

NBA:
	BOSTON		0	chicago		
	NEW YORK	8	detroit		
	CLEVELAND	10	washington	
	UTAH		7	indiana		
	SEATTLE		13	philadelphia	

College Hoops Tourneys:

Meadowlands Tournament, East Rutherford:
	SETON HALL	nl	lehigh		
	Southern Cal	7	SMU		

Fiesta Bowl Classic, Tuscon:
	Texas Tech	4	Penn St		
	ARIZONA		23	richmond	

Tribune Classic, Tempe
	Vanderbilt	10	Cleveland St	
	ARIZONA ST	15	pacific		

Otis Spunkmeyer Classic, Oakland
	Alabama		12	TCU		
	CALLIFORNIA	32	columbia	

Rainbow Classic, Honolulu
	Cincinnati	3	Georgia Tech	
	Arkansas	11	Oklahoma	

>>Fiesta Bowl Classic, Tuscon:
>>	Texas Tech	4	Penn St		
    
    Wow! Is Texas Tech THAT bad?
    
    
    
    billl

The Green Bay line has dropped to 4 on the news that Sterling Sharpe is
out.

TTom

NBA:
	san antonio	3	ATLANTA		
	MIAMI		10	la clippers	
	HOUSTON		7	golden state	
	PORTLAND	5	denver		
	seattle		3	LA LAKERS	

Gorden Forbes (USA Today) odds against getting to the Super Bowl:

AFC
	Pittsburgh	 3-1
	Miami		 7-2 (that's the way he listed 'em)
	San Diego	 5-1
	New England	 8-1
	Kansas City	10-1
	Cleveland	15-1 (!)

NFC
	San Francisco	 1-1 (Even)
	Dallas		 2-1
	Detroit		10-1
	Green Bay	12-1
	Minnesota	15-1
	Chicago		25-1

FWIW, for thised weekend he is picking
	Green Bay-Detroit - tossup
	Minnesota over Chicago by a TD
	Miami over Kansas City by a FG
	New England by 1 over Cleveland.

NBA:
	CLEVELAND	3	seattle		
	NEW YORK	6	atlanta		
	ORLANDO		14	new jersey	
	CHARLOTTE	5	protland	
	BOSTON		4	miami		
	INDIANA		11	washington	
	CHICAGO		6	denver		
	PHOENIX		14	philadelphia	

Heavy betting on the Fish has this line moving fast towards a pick.

TTom

    then at 3 (see pool) the fish must be a lock.
    
    At a pick diego starts to look real good to me.  They've pretty much
    passed every test this year though all seems to depend on Humphreys
    health.
    
    	They should be rested and healthy and home all of which they like.

And don't forget the fack that the Fish aint won a playoff game since
afore SPROTS moved to CAM.

FWIW, Chris Boomer Berman picks Pittsburgh, San Fran, Dallas and San
Diego to win and cover.

TTom

               <<< Note 29.561 by HBAHBA::HAAS "dingle lingo" >>>
                                 -< watch out >-

>And don't forget the fack that the Fish aint won a playoff game since
>afore SPROTS moved to CAM.
    
    Gee, I coulda sworn I saw the Phins beat the snot outta KC last week.
    Musta been the hallugeons.
    
    Mark.

NBA:
	BOSTON		7	washington	
	PHOENIX		13	milwaukee	
	UTAH		10	dallas		
	PORTLAND	6	la lakers	

NBA:
	SAN ANTONIO	10	miami		
	PHOENIX		7	cleveland	
	DENVER		6	dallas		

Super Sunday:
	San Francisco	18	San Diego	
	over/under	53

Super Sunday:
	San Francisco	19	San Diego	
	over/under	53
	odds:		San Francisco	12:1

Notes: odds are *ON* winning

       
    
       Even taking into account the recent history of the NFC
      blowing out the AFC, that line seems awfully awfully high
      and can only serve to motivate San Diego. I don't expect
      the Chargers to win but I do expect them to cover. SD has
      a good running game and can stretch the D with the long ball.
      Don't much but Popunu (don't know much about the French I
      took) but he looks like a viable 'H' back (re: tight end)
      option. And if SD's defense is as single-minded as it was
      during the Pittburg game, it will be toward stopping the pass
      this time and making Watters and Floyd beat them. The 9ers can
      win that way though they may not have to, but not by 19. I'll 
      take the Chargers and the points. I think conventional wisdom
      will take a beating in this game and an SD win won't completely
      surprise me.

A win by SD would definitely surprise me; but I would take SD+19. Imagine 
Chicago was less of an underdog to SF AT SF than SD is on a neutral field!
Just shows that setting of point spreads can be really wacky.

The Crazy Met

    
    The over/under at 53 seems low.  Might not be a bad bet to take SD. 
    If the niners are up 38-17 in the 2nd half (not unlikely) I can see
    them letting everyone play, and SD getting closer.  Pulling within
    45-31.
    
    brews  

That's why Buffalo+10.5 was a decent bet last year. Dallas led by 17 and Buffalo
was driving with about a minute left; of course Buffalo couldn't do anything
right and a receiver stepped out of bounds just before the first down marker
on a 4th down play.

The Crazy Met

Some facktors in the spread:

The San Francisco Mystique - they're seen to be unstoppable and
unbeatable, even by the might Cowboys.

The NFC Mystique - what is it, 10 straight. In fack, you have to go back
to the lasted Steeler title afore it's anyone besides the NFC or the
Raiders.

The San Diego Mystique - who?

The San Francisco Reality - no matter what you think of their defense,
they will outscore you. They led the lead in point differential.

The San Diego Defense - they'll make us think we're looking at replays.
It shore looks like Steve Young to Rice, Taylor and Jones will be open
all day.

The San Deigo Offense - Natrone Means can shore 'nuff run but the
Chargers will have to score everytime they have the ball just to keep up.
And throw in a hand me down QB who completed 1 pass the first half of his
lasted game.

The Betting Formula - the formula for winning the Super Bowl bet has at
its core picking the team with the better record. Then it says to look at
who's favored. Then is says to make sure your not playing the Raiders.
All of this wihtout regard to how much the line was. It's not perfect but
is shore is close.

The Betting Reality - remember this line is a_estimate of the betting not
a prediction of the outcome. The linesmakers are saying if'n the line is
about 20 then the betting will be near 50-50. Move it to 21, 22 or so and
too many people will bet the Chargers. Move it to 16, 17 or so and too
many people will bet the Niners. The right line limits the bookmakers
risk.

TTom

    I've been taking AFC for 10 years now and I'm about to give up.  The
    only logic that helps is that two afc teams amount to the debacles
    whilst Cinci and Oakland/LA were competive (and latter was only
    winner).
    
    So my hope is San Diego may not fold like doncs and bills.

With due respects to all, I think the worst Super Bowl game ever was the
pasting the Skins put on the Donks. That year that they scored 35 points
in the 2nd quarter. Worst in terms of the worst game to watch. Coombined,
both teams scored 7 points in the 2nd half, by Washington, natch.

I was at a_outdoor in the snow hot tub party for that game and I can
remembering thinking that I was glad that I didn't have to pay much
attention to the game. It allowed me to concentrate on more pressing
matters.

TTom

    Spreads that big basically amount to a coin toss (well, maybe
    that's true of all spread bets, but...).  The game can be a complete
    and total rout and the winner still doesn't cover.  Or, as in the last
    three Super Bowl games, a decent-quality team like the underdog 
    Bills (yes, I mean that) made some sense for many of the same reasons 
    as with the Chargers now, but they still got squashed.  So who knows;
    it's far too ugly.
    
    With that said, I'd go with the 49ers.  First, I think weak secondary 
    talent is something that cannot be covered up by overloading with any
    defensive scheme.  Second, the 49ers are a team that will show no
    mercy where a Dallas might have started to partying (with Jerry and
    Barry).  Couple of weeks ago the 49ers were pasting the Bears by 30+ 
    and they were still passing the ball, looking for more.  In Deion's 
    and Steve Young's supposed coronation game everyone will be looking to
    get into the act.  But sure, San Diego could easily hold it to within
    10 or so.  I'll be rooting for the Chargers so in the interests of
    maintaining some passion for the actual _game_ and not the spread 
    business I won't touch the Niners' filthy money... ;-) 
    
    glenn
    

FWIW, in week 15, San Francisco visited San Diego. The Niners were
favored by 7 and won by 23, 38-15.

TTom

    
> The NFC Mystique - what is it, 10 straight. In fack, you have to go back
> to the lasted Steeler title afore it's anyone besides the NFC or the
> Raiders.
    
    I, for one, am SICK TO DEATH of this NFC mystique stuff.  There have
    been 2 teams that dominated in the last decade, SF and Dallas.
    
    That has nothing to do with the NFC, just those 2 teams.
    
    The Patriots were UNDEFEATED against 2/3 of the NFC playoff
    participants.  Who were the other 1/3 - SF and Dallas.  I haven't
    checked on this year, but last year the AFC beat NFC in interconference 
    games.  
    
    I hope the press was happy with their "REAL Super Bowl" last week, and
    I hope they choke big time on a San Diego victory in 2.
    
    - Sean

|    The Patriots were UNDEFEATED against 2/3 of the NFC playoff
|    participants.  Who were the other 1/3 - SF and Dallas.  I haven't
|    checked on this year, but last year the AFC beat NFC in interconference 
|    games.  
 
This reflects something we've discussed before - while the
NFC has (possibly) the two best teams in football in
Dallas and SF, the conference isn't all that "deep".

Despite my #2 team being the Packers, I'm not that impressed
with the NFC Central, where half of the playoff teams came
from.  Every team there had gaping holes, and in fact, 
every team there lost to the Pats, who just barely slipped
into the AFC 'offs.

=Bob= 

    I think it's interesting that the Chargers play more of an NFC type
    game while the niners play an AFC of the 80's style. That is the
    Chargers want the games to be a slug it out game where there linemen
    and Running backs try to overpower and have strong defenses teams like 
    the Redskins, Giants and Cowboys did, while the niners are a finesse 
    passing teams not unlike the Broncos and Dolphins. Of all of the AFC 
    teams that made the playoffs only the phins now play the old style light 
    up the scoreboard style while the Browns, Pats, Steelers, Chiefs and 
    Chargers play the NFC style. The hirings of Bethard, Parcells and Bellichek 
    have played a big part in the transformation.

  There's been a lot of talk about this lately but I'm not sure there really is
an NFC or AFC style. 

  It's true that in the 70's the Dolphins and Jets threw a lot but then they
had Marino and Namath. The Steelers from that period also threw a lot but they
had Franco Harris and Rocky Briar()? do a lot of running while the Iron Certain
did a lot of bone crushing on defense. 

  Also, those Vikings teams from the 70's did a lot of throwing with Fran
Tarkenton as did the Cowboys who won more than one game with hail Mary passes
by Roger Stabuck. 

  George

    When you refer to the two different styles of football it's more like
    the NFL and AFL, rather than NFC and AFC.  
    
    The old NFL played a more conservative, 'grind it out on the ground',
    style.  The AFL was known for their aerial attacks.  That's not to say
    that successful teams in the old NFL didn't pass.  It's just that it
    was more the exception than the rule, and visa versa for the AFL.
    
    Also remember that the Steelers started in the old NFL.
    
    
    hth,
    billl

    
      The "Iron Certain"?

Firsted of all, Sean, I was talking about the Super Bowl. I wasn't
talking about overall conference strength, just the Super Bowl.

>    The Patriots were UNDEFEATED against 2/3 of the NFC playoff

So, this never happened. Not in the Super Bowl.

Here's the data for the NFC Mystique since Pittsburgh's lasted ring:

Conf-Team-Win
AFC-1-1 XV--Oakland Raiders, underdog by 3, def. Philadelpia, 27-10
NFC-1-1 XVI--San Francisco, favored by 1, def. Cincinnati, 26-21
NFC-2-1 XVII--Washington, underdog by 3, def. Miami, 27-17
AFC-1-2 XVIII--L.A. Raiders, underdog by 3, def. Washington, 38-9
NFC-1-2 XIX--San Francisco, favored by 3, def. Miami, 38-16
NFC-3-1 XX--Chicago, favored by 10, def. New England, 46-10
NFC-4-1 XXI--NY Giants, favored by 8 1/2, def. Denver, 39-20
NFC-2-2 XXII--Washington, favored by 3, def. Denver, 42-10
NFC-1-3 XXIII--San Francisco, favored by 7 1/2, def. Cincinnati, 20-16
NFC-1-4 XXIV--San Francisco, favored by 12, def. Denver, 55-10
NFC-4-2 XXV--NY Giants, underdog by 7, def. Buffalo, 20-19
NFC-2-3 XXVI--Washington, favored by 7, def. Buffalo, 37-24
NFC-5-1 XXVII--Dallas, favored by 6 1/2, def. Buffalo, 52-17
NFC-5-2 XXVIII--Dallas, favored by 10 1/2, def. Buffalo, 30-13

Records:
	AFC:	2-12, both wins by the Raiders
	NFC:	12-2, 5 different NFC teams won, 5 different AFC teams lost

TTom

RE        <<< Note 29.589 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

>      The "Iron Certain"?

  Iron Certain, Steel Certain, Titanium Certain, what ever.

  Krist Tommy, I sure am glad you have some nit picking detail to whine about
for the next week.

  George

  I guess, but we're still talking about a short period of time here, mostly
the '60's and '70s. 

  Also I think it's a lot like the claim these days of the NFC begin stronger
than the AFC in that it's not really something that you find on the majority of
teams but rather with a few top teams during that period. 

  In general, it seems football has become more pass oriented since 1960. 

  As for the Steelers, I don't recall them being all that powerful before the
merger, the Metallic Certain seemed to come along later when they had switched
to the AFC. 

  By contrast, the old Giants with Charlie Connley and Y.A. Tittle were a
passing team as were the Dallas Cowboys with Dandy Don Meridith and Roger
Stabuck. And the Vikings with Trakenton were always a passing team. 

  In baseball there really is a difference because there are different
umpires in the AL and NL who call a different strikezone. And now the DH
has made them even more distinct but I doubt that you will find any major
difference between the AFC and NFC that effects most of the teams and holds
up over that long a period.

  George

>      The "Iron Certain"?

This was the Burgh's attitude going into the Chargers game. They were so
certain that they would win, they didn't even bother showing up.

TTom

  Uh oh, the spell'en police are on my tail.

    The Eumenides of any notes file ...

      George

re: a few back

Namath and Marino never met in a game. Marino is 80's (started in 1983)
Namath's career was over in the mid 1970's.

The Crazy Met

    
    >> Krist Tommy, I sure am glad you have some nit picking detail to 
    >> whine about for the next week.
    
       George, if I were going to nit pick details, you'd never have a 
       moment's rest because your notes are chock full of errors. I was 
       merely (and good-naturedly) wondering what the hell an "Iron
       Certain" was. I guess they were the defense that featured the
       "center linebacker" and they were iron certain that you couldn't
       score on them.
    

RE      <<< Note 29.597 by METSNY::francus "There is no joy in Mudville" >>>

>Namath and Marino never met in a game. Marino is 80's (started in 1983)
>Namath's career was over in the mid 1970's.

  Did anyone ever say that they did meet in a game?

  George

RE        <<< Note 29.598 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

>I guess they were the defense that featured the
>       "center linebacker" and they were iron certain that you couldn't
>       score on them.
    
  AAAAaahhhhhhhhhhhh!!! MY NITS ARE GETTING PICKED

  AAAAaahhhhhhhhhhhh!!! AAAAaahhhhhhhhhhhh!!! 

  George

George,

I think this is the incorrect reference that was incorrectly referenced:

> It's true that in the 70's the Dolphins and Jets threw a lot but then they
>had Marino and Namath. 

TTom

RE               <<< Note 29.601 by HBAHBA::HAAS "dingle lingo" >>>

> It's true that in the 70's the Dolphins and Jets threw a lot but then they
>had Marino and Namath. 

  Oops, that's suppose to be 70's - 80's.

  So thanks everyone for pointing out these obscure details, you each get
honorary membership in the Star Trek Nit Pickers club but how about the topic
at hand? 

  Is there a difference in style between NFC and AFC teams or does it just
appear that way because of a few successful teams over a rather short
period of time?

  George

    With respect to smash mouth ball control football versus finesse
    football  The 49ers have won ALL of their super bowls with OFFENSIVELY
    finesses oriented teams.  They never have had dominating offensive
    lines like that of Washington or Giants, or even Buffalo or for sure
    Dallas.  They run a timing based offense.  Their offensive line is
    small compared to NFL standards and even some NCAA teams.  Now Defense
    is a different story.  Their defense is based on speed and
    agressiveness.  Talk about Montana having 4 superbowl rings but guess
    what?  Ronnie Lott also has 4 superbowl rings and while SF's defenses
    may not have been dominant they were agressive and Ronnie was the
    leader.

    The big AFC teams of 70s were run oriented clubs: Pitt,N.E., Raiders
    and the major challengers Dallas,Minnesota and the Rams were more
    balanced.
    
    The NFC seized on this success and tried to build around the ground
    attack and of course virtually all successful teams had good defenses.
    
    The key to Dallas and Washington in the 80s was excellent offensive
    lines (Giants) too allowing possession time advantage to complement
    sound defense.  The AFC is slowly evolving back but free-agency putting
    a premium on top offensive line talent has delayed the process.

>    The big AFC teams of 70s were run oriented clubs: Pitt,N.E., Raiders
>    and the major challengers Dallas,Minnesota and the Rams were more
>    balanced.

Ciphering this the bestest I can, 

 o Don't ever put N.E. up there with Pittsburgh and the Raiders. The Pats
	aint won squat while the other 2 are historical. And I thought
	the Raiders had watcha call the Vertical Game?

 o That seconded line looks like NFC teams. huh?

 o In almost all the SBs, the consensus bestest team won. Pittsburgh had
	about a dozen HoFers. They didnt need to rely on any single
	aspect of the game.

TTom

 >o In almost all the SBs, the consensus bestest team won. Pittsburgh had
	about a dozen HoFers. They didnt need to rely on any single
	aspect of the game.

    
    TTom, you beat me to it.  I wouldn't call a team with the likes of
    Lynn Swann and John Stallworth strickly run oriented.
    
    
    billl

Yeah, can't really think of any big SB upsets. Jets-Colts maybe, KC-Minn maybe
but the AFL was seen through a different prism than the NFL and Jets
and KC likely were not given any respect because of this. Other than that
only obvious mini-upset was Bills losing to the Giants; overall the Bills
had a better team that year - but even so the spread was listed at something
like 3 points.

Other possibility:

Raiders over Washington in 1982(?)

The Crazy Met

Here's the dogs who have won:

        III--New York Jets, underdog by 19, def. Baltimore, 16-7
        IV--Kansas City, underdog by 13 1/2, def. Minnesota, 23-7
        V--Baltimore, underdog by 3, def. Dallas, 16-13
        VII--Miami, underdog by 1, def. Washington, 14-7
        XV--Oakland Raiders, underdog by 3, def. Philadelpia, 27-10
        XVII--Washington, underdog by 3, def. Miami, 27-17
        XVIII--L.A. Raiders, underdog by 3, def. Washington, 38-9
        XXV--NY Giants, underdog by 7, def. Buffalo, 20-19

TTom

>  VII--Miami, underdog by 1, def. Washington, 14-7

wow! I didn't realize that; fer crissakes Miami was undefeated that year!
If I recall except for that play by Yepremian, Washington never came real
close to scoring.

So except for Jets and KC which was before ther merger was completed only
one team won being a underdog by 3+ points. Anything in the 0-3 range is
at best a minor upset.

The Crazy Met

>>  VII--Miami, underdog by 1, def. Washington, 14-7
>
>wow! I didn't realize that; fer crissakes Miami was undefeated that year!
>If I recall except for that play by Yepremian, Washington never came real
>close to scoring.

 It's true, but remember, the best team Miami faced in the regular season
 that year was N.Y.Jets, 7-7.  They had the next to easiest schedule in
 the league that year, then had to rally in the 4th quarter to beat a
 Cleveland team that didn't have a single player who made the Pro Bowl.
 The first tought team they faced that year was Pittsburgh, in the conference
 finals.

 Meanwhile, Washington had completely dominated a good Green Bay team, and
 a good Dallas team, the previous two weeks in the playoffs.  Green Bay, with
 John Brockington and MacArthur Lane, was expected to run well against the
 Skins, and got very few yards at all.

 As I recall, Washington did get down near the Miami end zone once.  The
 Dolphins really didn't move the ball that well, themselves.  They went
 unbeaten, but I was much more impressed with the team the following year.

    Well noone needs to remind me of what Pats have won and not.  But in
    the years of dominance of Raiders and Steelers very few teams could
    play either and be considered a tossup and none were in nfc.  I'd put
    even Dallas at that time a peg below New England (they did play once).
    
    Pats had a big consistency problem and an owner problem but had great
    drafts and coaching staffs which had among others Parcells.  All these
    AFC powers depended first on the ability to run and block.  Pittsburgh,
    yes made many big plays but you'll never convince me that Bradshaw to
    Swann had anything over Grogan to Morgan.
    
    For many reasons these two teams never met in playoff finals and
    Steelers - Raiders were the Superbowl for several of those years.
    
    billte

    
   > I'd put even Dallas at that time a peg below New England (they did play
   > once
    
    Get real!!! During that period Dallas had been in playoff's 20 straight 
    years.  Starting in 65 and ending in 85 Dallas had been in at least
    one round of the playoffs. Heck counting Sundays loss they have played
    for the NFL/NFC championship 15 times.  The Pats made it to the AFC
    champs once.
    
    
    
    When was the Pats in the off two years in a row?
    

Bart Oates, staring Center for San Francisco, on the point spread:

	"The point spread makes absolutely no difference to me. In
	fact, my hope is people lay it [the 20] and we beat them by
	16. Yuo shouldn't be betting in the first place. It serves
	you right. I hope people give the points and we win by 16.
	That would be poetic justice."

TTom

    I'll try to put it another way.  AFC dominated 70s like NFC the 85-94
    time frame with defense and running and smash mouth.  The two main AFC
    teams were Pitt and Oakland.  What I through in was that one of the few
    teams that could play with these two in either league in the late 70s
    was the Pats despite their lousy playoff history because they could
    match up in the fundemental areas: Offensive line, ability to run and
    good defense.
    
    Dallas seemed overmatched in its attempts to play these two during that
    period but certainly was most competitive NFC team.

    re. -2. - Talk like that will get you a visit from Tony "Big Thumbs"
    Antonuccispanola, and maybe a talk about "swimmin' wif da fishes", and
    he doesn't mean playing the Dolphins!:-)
    
    UMDan

   >    I, for one, am SICK TO DEATH of this NFC mystique stuff.  There have   
   > been 2 teams that dominated in the last decade, SF and Dallas.       
   > That has nothing to do with the NFC, just those 2 teams.        
    
    It's been more than SF and Dallas in the last decade.  Each of those
    have won two SB's in that time, but the Giants, Washington (couple a
    piece) and Chicago have won also.  And they've all had tougher teams to
    face in getting there than their AFC opponent.
    
    >I haven't checked on this year, but last year the AFC beat NFC in 
    >interconference games.   
    
    I don't think that is true for last year.  If it was, it was an
    anomaly.  The NFC again had a better interconference record this year.
    
    brews
    

It looks like we have ourselves a line. It hasn't quite made 20 but the
18 weren't enough.

Super Sunday:
	San Francisco	19	San Diego	
	over/under	53
	odds:		San Francisco	12:1

Notes: odds are *ON* winning

 12 to 1 has got to be the line on San Diego winning no? 

 otherwise if the experts are right somebody's going to take a huge bath...

 mike

You normally see odds as *AGAINST* a certain proposition.

For instance, when you play the ponies and a horse is 3:1, that means you
get back 3 bucks for every dollar waged. In this case, the odds are
against the horse winning.

To be consistent with that they should list the odds for San Francisco as
1:12. You get back one buck for every 12 dollars waged. This would be the
odds against the Niners winning.

For some reason, the list these "backwards", I guess because the 1:12
looks wierd.

So, just to be clear: 1 dollar bet on San Diego would win 12 dollars if'n
the Chargers win, or you hand them 1 dollar and they would hand you back
13; 12 dollars bet on San Francisco would win 1 dollar if'n the Niners
win, or you hand them 12 dollars and they would hand you back 13 dollars.

TTom

    If I'm a bettor, I LOVE the under, since I cain't see the Chargers
    putting up more than a TC vs the Niners.  SF would score seven TDs and
    still be under the number!
    
    NAZZ

College Football:

Senior Bowl:
	North		1	South		
	over/under	38

Hula Bowl:
	West		1	East		
	over/under	38

.626 is like putting a line on the Pro Bowl. Complete crapshoot.

The Crazy Met

From an AP dispatch on 18 Jan., dateline Las Vegas:

	The biggest Super Bowl spread ever grew even wider Monday -- 20-1/2
	points at one sports book -- as oddsmakers struggled to find a line
	enticing enough to draw some money on the underdogs.
	...
	"We've done everything we can to attract money on the Chargers,
	but there just isn't any," said Bob Gregorka, sports book manager
	at the Sands hotel-casino, where the 49ers were favored by 19
	points Monday.  "The scary part about the 19 points is the
	sophisticated gamblers are not taking it.  It's a sign for the
	future that says it will go even higher."
	...
	"It's hard to stop the 49er money," said Bill Sattler, book
	supervisor at Harrah's hotel-casino.  "We could put up 24 and
	they'd bet on it.  I see it going up to at least 20 or 21."

Personally, I think you'd be nuts to bet on the 49ers.  They could beat
the spread, send in the scrubs, and give it all back.  I'd only bet if
I felt the Chargers were going to beat the spread anyway.

Of course, I'm not a betting man, myself, and this discussion is purely
theoretical.

Steve

    
    I think you'll see the pros waiting for the line to go way up and put
    their money on SD, late  after its been run up a bit.  Vegas won't 
    like this.
    
    brews
    

All the lines you could ever want:

	Niners	19 (53 1/2)	Chargers

	Money Line:

	Niners -$1100		Chargers +$700

        First Scoring Play:             Total Points:
        Niners          Chargers
        7-2     FG      5-1             0-10    40-1
        9-5     pass    7-1             11-20   20-1
        7-2     run     10-1            21-30   8-1
        15-1    otherTD 25-1            31-40   6-1
        40-1    safety  40-1            41-50   3-1
                                        51-60   5-2
                                        61-70   7-2
        Margin of victory               71-80   7-1
        Niners          Chargers        81-90   12-1
        8-1     1-6pts  10-1            90+     12-1
        5-1     7-12    15-1
        5-2     13-18   25-1            Total Field Goals:
        5-2     19-24   40-1
        6-1     25-30   50-1            0       6-1
        10-1    30-36   100-1           1       7-2
        8-1     37+     100-1           2       3-1
                                        3       5-2
        Last Scoring play:              4       9-2
        Niners          Chargers        5       8-1
        3-1     FG      6-1             6 or +  15-1
        2-1     pass    6-1
        7-2     run     12-1            Total Interceptions:
        20-1    otherTD 25-1            0       5-1
        25-1    safety  30-1            1       3-1
                                        2       5-2
        TD Pass Thrown:                 3       9-2
        Young           Humphries       4       12-1
        6-1     0       5-2             5 or +  15-1
        5-1     1       2-1
        5-2     2       5-2             Total Fumbles lost:
        5-2     3       9-2             0       6-1
        9-2     4       10-1            1       3-1
        7-1     5       20-1            2       2-1
        10-1    6+      40-1            3       4-1
                                        4       6-1
        Receptions                      5 or +  8-1
        Rice            Seay
        15-1    0       10-1            first half line Niners - 10
        10-1    1       8-1             over/under 1sr half     27
        10-1    2       5-1
        8-1     3       7-2             Most yards rushing:
        7-1     4       4-1             Means -$130     Watters -$110
        5-1     5       9-2             Total Yards Rushing & Receiving
        4-1     6       6-1             Watters over/under 102 1/2 yards
        4-1     7       10-1            Harmon  over/under 54 1/2 yards
	5-1	8	15-1
	8-1	9+	20-1

	First Player to score a TD:
	Rice		3-1
	Watters		5-1
	Floyd		6-1
	Means		8-1
	Jones		8-1
	Young		8-1
	Taylor		10-1
	Martin		15-1
	Seay		15-1
	Jefferson	18-1
	Harmon		20-1
	Pupunu		25-1
	Sanders		30-1
	Humphries	30-1
	Field		12-1
	No TD		100-1

    What, no line on-
    
    How many steps Deon takes with his hand on his helmet before he hits the
    goal line after an interception?
    
    Bud Bowl, and if the dudes get off the island?
    
    Guess the real bettros have to go to England.:-)
    
    UMDan