Conference hbahba::cam_sports

Why are they going to be called Carolina Panthers as opposed to Charlotte
Panthers? Are they supposed to represent two whole states? Not being well up on
American geography, I am left wondering whether there is anywhere else of
consequence in Carolina.

Any ideas as to what the uniform will be?

Mike

	My guess is that by calling them the Carolina Panthers they are
	hoping to capture a larger chunk of the marketplace.  I hope this
	doesn't come as a huge shock, but damn near everything that goes 
	into a decision regarding professional sports, at least on this
	side of the "pond" is based on ca$h.


	billl

Perhaps they should have gone for Northern Hemisphere Panthers then. It does
have a ring to it, doesn't it?

Panthers is good though. Our teams always go for exciting stuff like United or
Town or Rovers if you're lucky. They're all better than Hound Dogs though. 8-)

You're jesting about the Pats thing aren't you?

When is merchandise likely to become available? Will they wait until the team
actually starts getting hammered, sorry, competing?

Mike

	I'd be suprised if the merchandise is not available by the end of this
	week.  The "newness" factor is a big part of marketing, especially
	when you are marketing merchandise to youngins.  "Be the first kid on 
	your block to wear a (enter new trendy name) shirt/baseball cap."

	Hail, I saw what seemed to be endless San Jose Sharks (NFL) hats and
	shirts well before they dropped their first puck.  Same goes for the
	Mighty Clucks, er I mean Ducks.

	Speaking of the Mighty Ducks, is it true that the home ice announcer
	has perfected the Donald Duck voice?

	Hey, if Mighty Ducks work why wouldn't Hound Dogs?  Who knows?


	billl

Unless they realign the divisions the Panthers will likely end up in the
AFC Central. The 2 divisions that have 4 teams are the AFC Central and
the NFC West (then again the NFC West has Atlanta and New Orleans).

Final decision will depend on who gets the second franchise. If St.Louis got
it, it wouldn't surprise me if Phoenix was put in the NFC West, St. Louis
in the NFC East and Charlotte in the AFC Central.

The Crazy Met

    
    
    Yabbut,
    
    
    OOOoooooo.....
    
    Nutting could be finah
    Than to be in Carolinah
    In da MooooooOOOOOOOning
    
    dada da da dada......
    
    Nuttin could be sweetah
    than for you to .......
    
    (oops, I almost forgot this was a family conference)
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    Kev_for_Irving_Berlin
    
    

    Hey Kev, what does Carolinah think about that though???
    
    
    JaKe
    

Northern boy question:


Are there really panthers in the Carolinas?  I mean, I doubt there are tigers 
anywhere in Michigan (except the zoo), or for that matter, bears in Chicago.

=Bob=

    I'm pretty sure alot of this was mentioned when the group first
    proposed the Carolina Panther franchise, so this may be a recap:
    
    The team will be based in Charlotte but is looking for regional appeal
    ala the Texas Rangers, New England Patriots, Florida Marlins, etc. and
    decided to call themselves the Carolina Panthers rather than the
    Charlotte Panthers.
    
    I'm pretty sure Bob Hunt mentioned that there are/were big cats roaming
    the Carolinas thus the name.  One of the investors said today that they
    wanted a logo/nickname that was strong, sleek, aggressive, and
    graceful.
    
    The Panthers will start playing in 1995.  They will play in Clemson's
    stadium until the stadium in Charlotte is ready.
    
    The teams colors are white, teal, and black.  I saw a jersey today.  It
    was white with black numbers.  The numbers were outlined in teal.  I
    think there was some black and teal striping on the sleeve.  The helmet
    has a slick looking panther head on it.  It is somewhat stylized thus
    someone's comment that it looks similar to the Pats' logo.  Don't be
    surprised at all if Panther stuff starts appearing in your local Pro
    Team shops in the malls.

What is this fascination with teal???

The Crazy Met

Trying to catch up:

The Panthers are called "Carolina" because a fundemental part of the
pitch that Charlotte made was that this was a regional effort. Their
concern was that the Charlotte market itself was too small so the
Richardsons made every effort to involve neighboring urban centers
especially Greensboro and Columbia.

There used to be a lot of panthers in this neck of the woods. None left,
except maybe in the zoo.

Panthers paraphenalia has been on sale since yesterday. Mostly hats and T
shirts.

The uniform will be black pants with silver and blue stripes and the
panther logo. There's a blue jersey for home games and a white one for
the road. The blue is a_electric royal blue, definitely not teal.

In addition to the Richardson family (of Denny's, Hardee's [in]fame[y])
there's about 10 other principals. While technically not a_owner, one big
player is Hugh McCall, CEO of NationsBank who's handling the money.

TTom

    Yeah, I wouldn't call it teal. The jersey I saw reminded me some of
    the Toronto Argos...

    	RE: 142.5
    
    	The fella on CNN Sports last night at 11PM said the Carolina
    	Cougars merchandise would go on sale this morning.
    
    	Scott

So how would I go about getting some Panthers merchandise in the UK? Can someone
give me an address or something?

Cheers,

Mike

I'll check into where and possibly how y'all can buy that there
paraphenalia. I'm going out this afternoon and buying me a T-shirt.

TTom

    You had to pay money to have the right to buy a season ticket?  What a
    racket.
    
    So considering the fee, does this make the Panthers have the highest
    season ticket price in the league?  What would have happened to the
    money collected if Charlotte was not awarded a franchise?  Do you get
    anything else for you money besides the right to buy a season ticket?

I heard Richardson say that if Carolina goes to the NFC, they will be put
in the NFC West.  He was serious.  No realignment planned.

The NFL never ceases to amaze me.

Doug

Attempting to sort out the PSL:

>    You had to pay money to have the right to buy a season ticket?  What a
>    racket.

You got that right. Neither the city nor the Richardsons wanted to foot
the bill for the stadium. They hit onto this idea of selling a stake in
the stadium. The team gaurantees you won't lose money on selling the PSL,
which will be pretty much moot cause everyone has pledged to buy out all
remaining seats except for 5000 or so that will be held for public sale.

>    So considering the fee, does this make the Panthers have the highest
>    season ticket price in the league?  What would have happened to the
>    money collected if Charlotte was not awarded a franchise?  Do you get
>    anything else for you money besides the right to buy a season ticket?

I don't know about the highest season ticket price but season tickets,
not counting the boxes, range from $600 to $190, single seats (like
you're gonna find any) range from $60 to $19 which doesn't sound that
bad. What're the rates for the Pats, Donks, or Giants?

If'n we'd been shut out, they woulda returned the money to us. All the
money went into a special account and adminstrative costs were to have
been offset by the interest the money is drawing. 

BTW, you got to select the option of paying in 3 parts. So I've only got
900 bucks into my PSL at this point. The second third is due March 1, 94,
and the last third is due January 6, 95.

I don't know what all you get for the PSL but it ain't much. It'll
probably be like what we get for having Hornets season tickets which is a
bunch of media stuff/junk that you could purchase if'n you wanted like
the media guide, a subscription to a glossy magazine. You know, real good
stuff like that, not.

I think we're supposed to grateful for being allowed to spend money to
attend the games. Like the Hornets, the Panthers will be the biggest
thing in town during their season. Tickets will be at a premium so what
we get is to be able to count on having a ticket.

One interesting thing about all this is that the first season will be
played in Clemson's Death Valley, so named cause you won't be able to
purchase imbibements, and evidently you don't have to buy the first
season's tickets. In 95 when the new stadium in Charlotte is finished you
either gotsta buy a season ticket or get rid of your PSL.

TTom

> Moving them into the AFC West

I'm sure this was supposed to be NFC West.

The Crazy Met

There is a little confusion about exactly where the Panthers will be. the
league is maintaining that they aren't taking on the issue of realignment
at this time.

Assuming that, it would hard for Charlotte, I mean Carolina, to go
anywhere but to the NFC West. The NFC East and Central already have 5
teams each.  Most of the talk has them in the NFC since the St. Louis
conspiracy has that team in the AFC.

So if'n the league adds a 30th team, that would give two conferences,
three divisions each, 5 teams each. Sorta symmetrical if not making much
sense otherwise.

TTom

    Well, if they're that sure they'll sell out, what would you do?  How
    long's the list for Giants games?
    

Mac,

The 3 grand plus/minus for the PSL is a_investment. It is expected like
with most successful sports situations to maintain the purchase value. In
fact, if'n it's anything like the Hornets you can get back many times
your investement. For instance, I pay about 600 bucks for my Hornets
season ticket. Daily, in the paper, these season tickets are being sold
for 2 and three thousand. In my section!

In any case, you can't get less than your money back for the PSL so if'n
it's a push, all you're out is the interest. Since the stadium will be a
sellout, it looks like it'll be hard not to make some money on the
investment.

So if'n the price of the PSL goes into figuring out the cost of the
season tickets, you'll have to back it out at the end if and when you
sell it.

You will have to buy a PSL to buy season tickets. I think there's a
little less than 10 thousand seats available and the line has already
started forming, waiting for them to go on sale. No more PSLs are being
sold for now.

Hopefully, you won't have to get your money back for the PSL. Hopefully,
it will be worth more on the open market where you can sell it to anyone
for any price. NC has a law about marking up individual tickets. You can
only sell them at 10% over list. However, there's no such constraints for
selling the right to buy tickets and as mentioned for the Hornets they're
going for thousands.

TTom

Some details from this mornings paper:

If'n you're looking info:

	Richardson Sports
	227 W. Trade St
	Suite 1600
	Charlotte, NC 28202
	704-358-1644 (8:30am - 5:30pm, Mon-Fri)

For a job, include resume and add

	Attn: Human Resource Dept.

And they've confirmed the rise in PSL prices, where they're claiming all
seats just went up 10%.

TTom

    RE: re-alignment
    
    Another issue that will come in to play is that the Panthers
    payout to visiting clubs is substantially higher than all other
    NFL clubs  (something like $1.3 mil compared to $800-$900k).
    
    I don't know how much of that the owner gets to pocket, but it
    could definitely impact how easy (i.e. hard) realignment could 
    be determined.
    
    Many stores already sold out of Panthers merchandise.
    
    Strong rumors about Joe Gibbs being the top coaching prospect.
    Bill Walsh and Raymond Berry are also being considered.
    Gibbs has ties to the Carolinas and has made public statements
    to the media this week indicating that he'd consider such
    an offer.
    
    Pat

    Has the official word on how they will select their team happened?
    
    I'm sure it must be some sort of each team can protect x players along
    with the #1,2 picks in the draft.
    
    Jimbo

      re: berry
    
      Raymond Berry a head coach again?  Please say no!  Hw will be canned
    after 2 years....
    
      Tim

The guy they're after is Joe Gibbs. Gibbs is still under contract with
the Redskins although he doesn't get any money from them. Until some time
in 95 no one can talk to him without getting permission of the Skins and
Jack Kent Cooke is saying no way.

Gibbs works here in Charlotte with his NASCAR team so he's definitely
considered a local at this point.

Raymond Berry played with owner Jerry Richardson for the Colts. He might
end up in some position with the Panthers but there isn't any talk around
here about him being the main main.

Now one of things you wonder about is how active Mike McCormack will be.
I think he's penciled in as GM so that should give him a lot of say in
terms of who the players are. Charlotte, I mean Carolina, may not have a
coach in place when their draft comes up (after 94 season) and McCormack
would most likely be in charge.

TTom

    how is there draft going to work, do they get to steal talant from
    other teams, do they automatically get the first picks in the draft ?
    Im just curious how this hurts the other teams in terms of talant.
    
    								mab

I'm not sure at what position they draft but the Panthers and St. Louis
get 2 picks every round. Also, I think they'll get to raid the other
teams much like expansion in the other major leagues. 

If'n it's like NBA, which I'm not saying but bringing up only for
comparison, they'll get inserted into the draft order at the end of all
those who failed to qualify for the playoffs and afore those that made
it.

TTom

    Da paper says that in previous expansion years, the new teams were
    moved to the head of the class - given the first draft positions for
    each round.  Which would mean Charlotte and St Louis would get the
    first two picks in the draft.
    
    They'd probably flip a coin to see he who goes first.
    
    Raymond Berry was in town last week and interviewed with the Panthers
    for basically any type of job.  Head coach, assistant coach, front
    office...whatever they might think he's good for.
    
    If the Panthers get the first pick in the '95 draft, some speculation
    has already started (in the media of course) that the Panthers would
    jump all over NC native Heath Shuler, the QB at Tennessee.
    
    Comments by Richardson, McCormack that a head coach could be named
    as early as January '94!!!!  (Can you believe it?)  Very few comments
    on Gibbs - they want to make sure he is free of obligation from 
    Washington before they make any moves or public statements  - lest they 
    be accused of "tampering"...the dreaded 11th commandment in the NFL.
    
    Pat

    I just returned from a trip to Raleigh, North Carolina. The stores
    are filled with Carolina Panther merchandise. The one guy was right...
    their logo does have that extruded Patriots look to it. It appears
    that the color scheme is based on a very dark blue.
    The idea of representing a state (or more) isn't too new or unique.
    Do we wince when we think of the Minnesota Vikings? In what city
    would you look for their home games?? Florida Marlins? Colorado
    Rockies? New Jersey Nets? Utah Jazz? True, these are one-state
    examples, but the idea of representing more than just a megalopolis
    isn't new. What about the NEW ENGLAND Patriots? Six whole states??

    Re:  Whole state team names
    
    No, I don't wince when I think of the Minnesota Vikings or Utah Jazz or
    Colorado Rockies.  They identify with the whole state in all of these 
    cases.  Minnesota was the first area to name teams by the whole state
    back in '61.  It was done specifically to not upset either Minneapolis
    or St. Paul - especially since the ballpark was in Bloomington.
    
    But what is silly to me is the California Angels - where 4 other teams
    exist or New England where a sizable chunk are Giants fans or the
    worst of all, New "York" Jets and Giants, who as we all know reside in
    New Jersey.
    
    
    Spud

    
    >>Hey it's not our fault we got a bunch of Noo Yawker
    >>transplants/wannabees here.
    
    I think it's more a result of the people's up there being tired of
    suffering thru the Pats lousy seasons that they turned to the Gnats.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
>>    Hey it's not our fault we got a bunch of Noo Yawker
    transplants....
    
    
    And this is from a guy who loves Texas???????
    
    
    
    Mtm, Do Me!
    
    ;*p
    
    I remain,
    victimized cause I couldn't pick wher I was born
    Kev
    

    
    >>I remain,
    >>victimized cause I couldn't pick wher I was born
    >>Kev
    
    Or in yer case, Kev, "hatched".
    
    JaKe
    

    
    >>Hey it's not our fault we got a bunch of Noo Yawker
    >>transplants/wannabees here.
    
    > I think it's more a result of the people's up there being tired of
    > suffering thru the Pats lousy seasons that they turned to the Gnats.
    
      Actually, it's because before the advent of the AFL the Giants were
      the closest team to New England. Most of the Giants fans up here are
      older or the kids of old Giants fans with just a smidgeon of band-
      wagon jumpers and translpants thrown in for good measure.    

What in the hail is all this noo yawker notes about.

First they run me outta the ACC note LDUCing over Kentucky vs No Carolina
and now I try to take refuge in the Panther note. Nexted thing they'll be
arguing Notre Dame Irish over in Hornets. 

Sheet, if'n this keeps up I'm going to be forced to do some digital type
work.

TTom

    BOy -2 made me laugh, most Giants fans I know are Bandwagon Jumpers
    of course Im a youngin and seems that in Highschool in the early 80's
    no one I knew who watched football cheered for the Giants THEN WHOOMP..
    a few SB's later and there coming out of the wood work :-)

 >   BOy -2 made me laugh, most Giants fans I know are Bandwagon Jumpers   
 >   of course Im a youngin and seems that in Highschool in the early 80's   
 >   no one I knew who watched football cheered for the Giants THEN WHOOMP..   
 >   a few SB's later and there coming out of the wood work :-)
    
    Iz dis the pot callin the keddle blak or wot? A Bulls (for another year
    or so anyway) -pokes feign callin Giants fans bandwagon jumpers.  Next
    thing you know, he'll be assailing the literacy of Sports noters.
    
    brews, Giants fan since sometime around '60 

    The Charlotte Disturber...er, I mean Charlotte Observer reported
    Sunday that Joe Gibbs and Steve Spurrier are the two leading
    candidates for the Panthers head coaching job.
    
    Gibbs' attorney has informed the Panthers that Gibbs is NOT
    under contract with the Redskins and could be contacted to
    discuss the coaching job.  Panther officials are playing
    it cautious and awaiting permission from the NFL and/or the
    Redskins before proceeding.
    
    They'll wait 'til after the college season is over to contact Spurrier.
    
    During the halftime segment of MNF (Monday Night Football), Gibbs
    carefully stated that he'd return to coaching for the right
    opportunity (hopefully leaving the door open for the Panthers).
    
    What are the odds on who gets the other franchise to be announced
    today?  
    
    Pat

Spurrier said that he's not interested in leaving Florida. He didn't say
never but he did say he's not looking and doesn't want to hear about the
Panthers job.

Gibbs gave some mixed signals himself. In the pregame hype, on a segment
about how the NFL coaches are burning out and quiting, they interviewed
him and he pretty much said that he had had enough. Then at halftime, he
acts like he at least wants to talk to the Panthers. It's a little wierd
that he waited until now to let everyone know he was free to talk. Maybe
he's already tired of losing out to Earnhardt, Wallace, Elliot and the
rest of them NACSAR superstar teams.

TTom

The local sports shops (in Reading) have just started selling Panthers
merchandise, which is a bit strange because they only sell similar stuff for
about half of the already playing franchises. You'd have to go a long way to
find Bucs sweatshirts, for example, but then you'd probably have to go even
further to find somebody that wanted one. 8-)

Mike

    When Donna went to Atlanta lasted month she got me a Carolina Couger
    hat.... 16 bucks.... I LOVE it!!! 
    
    REK
    
    Its a shame that the Carolina's have an bufoon for a resident.. :-}
    Who works for DEC... ;_]
    Who worships a basketball "legent_in_his_own_mind"...

    
    
        Carolina Panther hats were $32.00
    
    

    Yeah, Carolina Panther.... I have a clue sometimes...
    My wife bought 2 Panther hats for $32.00 in Atlanta....
    The brand name is starter.....
    
    REK

    Billy Cunningham played for the Carolina Cougars...

    Steve Previs and George Karl both played for the Carolina Cougars as
    well.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Owner Jerry Richardson has called a 2:30 pm news conference
    where he is expected to announce that GM Mike McCormack has
    been promoted to team president, and that Bill Polian will
    be the team's new GM.
    
    Polian is a two-time NFL Executive of the Year from his years
    at Buffalo, taking them from the cellar to Super Bowl contenders.
    
    Polian was also being sought by the Eagles, Jaguars, Rams, and Saints.
    He is known as a good evaluator of talent, shrewd businessman, and
    a bit of a risk taker.
    
    Sounds like good new for the Panthers.  Hopefully, he can pull
    a Joe Gibbs out of his hat in the next month or so.
    
    Pat

    
    Not really.  I don't think Bidwell had any real idea of bringing in
    someone like Polian, who would have asked for more power than Bidwell
    is willing to give up.
    
    boC

    Re: -1
    
    that sounded to logical to be from BoC.

    To get in the spirit of thangs..
    
    Let's name the all-time allstar team of the Panthers..
    
    MikeL
    
    

    
    
    	Yabbut anybody remember what position Peter Sellers played?
    Ah know he was one of the all-time great Panthers!
    
    
    I remain,
    celluloidally a pheunne
    Kev
    

    Kev, the Panther was a diamond.

    Early last week the Panthers officially asked the NFL to rule
    on the Joe Gibbs contract situation.  Today the NFL contacted
    the Skins and requested Gibbs' contract information.
    
    Look for a ruling from the league in the coming weeks.
    
    Pretty ironic...Jack Kent Cooke says that the Panthers can't talk
    to Gibbs because he is under contract; then he turns around and 
    hires someone under contract.
    
    Later,
    Pat

Jacksonville was told NOT to discuss their job with Jimmy Johnson, so we can 
easily guess what the answer will be with Gibbs.

    The answer may not come as quick as you think.  Gibbs has not
    been paid a dime by the Skins since he left.  His attorney sez
    that the contract was terminated.  Lack of payment seems to support
    this.
    
    ..whereas Jimmy Johnson is obviously still under the employ of 
    the Cowboys.  
    
    Pat
    

Article: 7603
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (AP)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.football
Subject: NFL Warns Jaguars On Johnson
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 94 11:10:19 PST
 
	JACKSONVILLE, Fla. (AP) -- The NFL has warned the Jacksonville
Jaguars that the team could be violating league rules if it tries
to make direct contact with Dallas Cowboys coach Jimmy Johnson.
	Joe Browne, the NFL's chief spokesman, said Thursday that the
league sent a letter to the Jaguars last week after hearing reports
linking the team to Johnson.
	``It clarified the Johnson contract situation. It was a reminder
that they need Jerry Jones' permission to talk with Jimmy,'' Browne
said.
	The Florida Times-Union reported Tuesday that the Jaguars met
with Johnson last week in Miami, but team owner J. Wayne Weaver and
team president David Seldin denied the meeting took place.
	After hearing the report, Jones warned the Jaguars that they
could face severe penalties if they tried to hire Johnson. Jones
said he won't give any team permission to talk with Johnson, who
coached the team to a second consecutive Super Bowl win.
	Under NFL rules, a team must ask permission to speak to a coach
under contract to another team. Johnson has five years remaining on
a 10-year contract that pays him $1 million a year.
	The NFL has spoken with the Jaguars twice about possible
tampering violations since it was awarded a franchise Nov. 30. The
league also discussed the policy with the other expansion
franchise, the Carolina Panthers.
	Both the Panthers and the Jaguars have sought a clarification on
whether former Washington Redskins coach Joe Gibbs is available as
a coaching candidate since he remains under contract with the
Redskins.
	An announcement on the Gibbs situation is expected Monday.

    Appears here that nfl is again venturing into troubled legal waters by
    trying to enforce these fine-print stipulations about "tampering".
    
    Teams don't find any problem in firing coaches regardless of how they
    perform on the job where the team itself fails to win - eg Joe Bugel.
    but they claim sanctity of the contract when jj wants a different
    venue.
    
    And if jj has a contract what difference does it make if he talks to
    jags?  Answering my own question I am guessing that jjones doesn't want
    to see johnson going thru the motions.
    
    Which is the rub.  If johnson's heart isn't into coaching Dallas then
    he ain't worth a mil$ to jones so why not let him go and pick up a
    draft choice.
    
    And why doesn't gibbs just show up at redskins door and say - here I
    am, pay me and btw get rid of the other guy.

                                  
    Clearly, these reports of meetings with Johnson and warnings from the
    NFL are nothing but wishful thinking by Cowboy-haters.  There's
    absolutely nothing going on...
    
    glenn
    

    
    Bugel is still getting paid by the Cards for the final year of the
    contract.  Gibbs left the 'skins, so he doesn't get paid. I believe the
    standard coaching contract ties the coacxh to a team for the length of
    the contract. Two different sitautions.
    
    Turner's job was a promotion, which the Cowboys are forced, by NFL
    rules, to allow him to take the job.  Now if Carolina decides they want
    to re-title Gibbs' job to make it into a promotion, they may be able to
    get him.  On the other hand, with Turner now in place, why not have
    Gibbs just say he wants to un-retire, forcing JKC's hand.  Of course
    this would take a bit of rehersing on Gibbs/Carolina's parts, and since
    they can't talk, it may not work.  I haven't heard yet whether Gibbs
    wants to return yet anyway, his kid's still at school.
    
    brews

Has Gibbs made any statements as to what he wants out of all of this?
Seems like a lot is being made about Gibbs, but I haven't heard anything
from him.

Jerry

    There have been frequent articles and interviews down thisa way
    about Gibbs.  Joe can't say much for fear of NFL wrath, but he
    has gone as far as saying he'd be interested in talking with
    the Panthers, and that he'd only return to coaching for the 
    right opportunity.
    
    He's playing his cards right, and wants to get the official
    okay from the league before doing anything that could be
    deemed detrimental to him or any team.
    
    His attorney has been a bit more vocal...saying in effect that
    Gibbs is interested in the job, and free from the Redskins contract.
    
    One of Gibbs' sons works on the Gibbs race crew here in Charlotte.
    His other son is a junior at Stanford and will have graduated
    before the '95 NFL season.  He has hinted that he may locate
    to the Charlotte area upon graduation.  Yesterday's paper
    reported that one of Gibbs' best friends is relocating from
    Florida to Charlotte.  Also, the Panthers have hired some guy name 
    (Joe?) Mack from the Redskins as their Director of Scouting.  
    
    This is a bunch of circumstantial evidence, and may not mean squat
    to Gibbs, but at least you can see where all of the speculation is 
    coming from.
    
    Not sure what kind of messages the Jaguars have gotten from Gibbs.
    I have heard that the Jags want to have most of their front office
    in place (incl coach) before the next NFL meetings (which I believe
    are in March).  I read where Ditka has sent a note to the Jags
    expressing an interest in their coaching job, but have no idea
    who else is being considered.
    
    It'll be interesting to see what happens.  Especially if the NFL
    says that Gibbs is still under contract with the Skins.  
    
    Pat

    Say it ain't so Joe...

Article: 8319
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (AP)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.football
Subject: NFL To Flip Coin For 1995 Pick
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 14:00:13 PDT
 
	NEW YORK (AP) -- While NFL teams are making their picks in the
1994 draft, the first pick for 1995 will be determined by a coin
toss.
	The toss will involve Jacksonville and Charlotte, the two
expansion franchises who begin play in 1995. At about 7 p.m. EDT,
or 3 1/2 hours into the draft, commissioner Paul Tagliabue will toss
the coin that determines the No. 1 pick.
	Tagliabue will be joined for the pick by owners Jerry Richardson
of Carolina and Wayne Weaver of Jacksonville. The loser picks
second.
	The last time a coin toss determined the No. 1 pick was in 1976,
when Tampa Bay and Seattle entered the league. Tampa won and chose
Lee Roy Selmon of Oklahoma, who became one of the best players in
team history. Seattle used the second pick on defensive tackle
Steve Niehaus of Notre Dame.

Article   8404
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (AP)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.football
Subject: Carolina Gets No. 1 1995 Pick
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 94 16:20:17 PDT

        NEW YORK (AP) -- The Carolina Panthers gained the first pick in
next year's NFL draft by winning a coin toss Sunday with the
league's other expansion team, the Jacksonville Jaguars.
        Flanked by team owners Wayne Weaver of Jacksonville and Jerry
Richardson of Carolina, NFL commissioner Paul Tagliabue flipped a
coin that had the Panthers' logo on one side and the Jaguars' logo
on the other. When the coin landed on Tagliabue's wrist, the
Panthers' symbol was face up.
        Both teams will begin play in the 1995 season.

Panther update:

The Carolina Panthers, along with the Jacksonville Jaguars, are in the
process of determining exactly how nexted year's draft will go. 

As it stands right now, the Panthers will get the firsted pick, followed
by the Jaguars. 

Both will get 7 extra picks during the draft: 1 extra in round 1 or 2; 1
extra in rounds 3 through 6; 2 extras in round 7. 

The issue being discussed in the extra pick in round 1 or 2. The league
seems to be wanting this to be done in the middle of Round 2. The new
teams want it to come at the end of the firsted round. 

For the Panthers, the difference could be huge. If'n this goes their way,
they'd get the firsted and nexted to the last pick of the firsted round,
and the firsted pick of the seconded round. The potential would be for
getting 3 top players. 

In addition to the college draft, the Panthers and the Jaguars will get
to select 42 players from the other 28 teams in the league. This will be
done of Feb. 15. Each team will place 6 or 7 players in a pool that can
be selected as long as no team loses more than 3 players. 

The way free agency works, the new teams can start holding tryouts for
players not on NFL rosters in October. During November, they can sign up
to 10 players not now in the league for 1995. 

TTom 

    Good article in the paper the other day - interview with Panther
    GM Bill Polian.  He says the Panthers will be "bad, bad, bad" the
    first year.  Worse than Cinci.  He believe the NFL will make it
    very difficult for the expansion teams to compete with existing
    teams - at least the first few years.
    
    One thing worth watching is what kind of restrictions the league
    puts on the Panthers and Jag regarding free agents (at the end
    of the 94-95 season).
    
    Current Heisman hype leader is Steve McNair.  What about the RB
    at Penn State?
    
    Pat

    The NFL is meeting this week to figure out how to staff the new teams.

The local rag is reporting that today's the day for finalizing the draft
plan. 

Supposedly, the NFL management Council's Executive Committee (CEC) will
recommend that the Panthers and the Jaguars get 1 extra pick in all seven
rounds of nexted year's draft. To make this simple, this would give both
expansion franchises 2 picks each round.

Several NFL owners (e.g. Jerry Jones) are being quoted as saying that
they expect the owners to "rubber stamp" the CEC plan.

TTom

The league has approved the CEC's recommendation for drafting.

For the 95 draft, each team will get 1 extra pick in each of the seven
rounds. Charlotte has the overall Number 1 pick. Jacksonville has Number
2. Then the rest of the league picks. Then Jacksonville picks again and
then Charlotte picks again. The two teams alternate who gets the first
pick of each round. Jacksonville has it in round 2, etc.

The confusion to this is that the league may compensate some teams for
losing free agency and those picks would come before the additional picks
by the expansion teams.

The veteran's draft will be in mid-February Existing NFL teams will place
6 players in the pool. No team can lose more than 3 players. A team may
place only 1 player on IR and only 1 player with 10 or more years
experience. No punters or kickers may be exposed. Teams may pull back 2
of their exposed players once the selections begin.

Charlotte and Jacksonville each must select at least 30 players, with a
maximum of 42.

For 96, the two expansion teams will get 7 more extra picks. None of
these will be in the firsted 2 rounds, 1 in each of rounds 3-5 and two
each in rounds 6-7.

TTom

The other issue that remains is which division team will go to.

Right now, current thinking has that no realignment will occurr, at least
not the firsted year. With that assumption, local opinion has it that
Charlotte would be in the NFC West and Jacksonville in the AFC Central.

Supposedly, several teams are adamant about keeping in their current
division. For instance, it's being reported that both Dallas and Arizona
want to stay in the NFC East.

Stay tuned.

TTom

The NFL Managment's Council's Executive Committee (CEC) hs changed the
rules on the allocation draft pool.

That's where Charlotte and JVille get to pick players currenlty on NFL
teams' rosters.

The new issue is that the CEC has said it's OK to put people into the
pool who are facing surgery in the off-season. Supposedly a_independent
physician must attest that the player would be ready to play in the 95
season but how someone responds to surgery is a shaky prediction, at
best.

TTom

The local paper has a lead article on the rest of the story why and how
Charlotte was awarded a franchise.

'Twas easy, the fix was in. Panther owner Richardson phone Pete Rozelle
right after he had resigned his commish office. Richardson asked if Pete
would help out with the bid and Pete said yes.

Richardson now is givig a lot of credit to what Pete did for him and
advised him to do.

In the meanwhile, it's been a year since the fanchise was awarded. My how
time flies when you're having fun...

TTom

Speaking of realignment, it's official. They aint gonna be no
realignment.

Charlotte has been placed in the NFC West, at least for thised year.
Semi-possible rivalry with Atlanta. J'ville, which couldn't have been in
the NFC will join the Steelhaids and Cleveburgh in the AFC Central.

TTom

    just like I said.

    Great, the AFC central, what with Houston, Cincinnati, and Jacksonville 
    and Clevescum, in that lot there's 6 gauranteed wins a year.
    
    JaKe
    

... and only 1 team goes to the playoffs and loses the firsted round.

We agree witcha, JaKe, the whole AFC Central sucks.

TTom

    Hey...Jacksonville would have a shot at the playoffs in their first
    year!!!
    

    I seem to remember someone winning the afc central one year with only
    8 wins...  The AFC Central is without a doubt the weakest in the NFL.
    
    2 teams with only 1 win (One of them will have 2 next week) and the top
    2 teams are potential playoff teams but steping stones to the bowl at
    best (No One in there right mind could honestly beleive that anyone
    from the AFC Central is a favorite to represent the AFC).  Now you add
    an expansion team, Cleveland could win 10 games again next year :-)
    (2+2+2 vs Cinncy, Hou, Jacksonville and then split with Pitt) 
    
    								mab
    
    

|Title:  You mean the nfc cental is weakest; Bears, Lions???
 
Vikes, Packers... 

    Buffalo, Miami;
    
    San Fran, La
    
    Chiefs, Chargers
    
    Dallas, ?		There's a weak one
    
    Jets are not a bad team either

    re: .92
    
    And the Eagles are 7-2.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Forgot all about them; easy enough they aren't hyped much but yes
    easily as good as Minnesota.
    
    So, what division is best?  NFC east has best 1,2; rest pickem.  Unless
    you want to decide by # 3 team per conf.

    Yes which division is best is tough, but Id have to go with
    the AFC West.  Even thought SD has slipped the last 2 weeks they
    still have to be considered one of the best teams along with KC.
    Plus the Raiders are a decent teams as well.  But the key here is
    the 2 worst teams in the Division, Seattle and Denver are clearly
    better then the 2 worst teams in any other division... The AFC
    west does not have a team that could lose 12-14 games, all the
    other divisions do...

>    Plus the Raiders are a decent teams as well.  But the key here is
>    the 2 worst teams in the Division, Seattle and Denver are clearly
>    better then the 2 worst teams in any other division... The AFC
>    west does not have a team that could lose 12-14 games, all the
>    other divisions do...

     I'd say the NFC West bottom two teams are as good as Denver and Seattle.

    Considering that the Rams beat Denver and that Cincinatti beat seattle
    I would have to agree with the previous statement.
    

    Yes but your comparing the 4rth and 5th place team to the 3rd and 4rth
    place team.  As an overall division I still think the AFC west is the
    toughest division.
    
    Do you the the Rams/New Orleans are better then the Raiders/Broncos ?
    
    I just think San Fran will have an easier time beating Rams/NO then
    SanDiego or KC will have with Denver/Seattle...
    
    								mab
    

>    Yes but your comparing the 4rth and 5th place team to the 3rd and 4rth
>    place team.  As an overall division I still think the AFC west is the
>    toughest division.
 
     What else could we do ?  You are the one that suggested Denver/Seattle
     were better than the 2 lowest teams in every other division; how would
     you expect us to compare them with the NFC West ?
   
>    Do you the the Rams/New Orleans are better then the Raiders/Broncos ?

     I think the Rams/New Orleans are better than the Broncos/Seahawks, which
     is the comparison you made as well.
    
>    I just think San Fran will have an easier time beating Rams/NO then
>    SanDiego or KC will have with Denver/Seattle...

     I think that San Fransisco will have an easier time beating Denver
     (and would have against Seattle if they played) than SD/KC would/have
     had against NO or LA.  Wait, didn't the Rams blank KC (do you think
     the Faids or Donks will do that) ?  Didn't the Rams already beat Denver ?
     Hmmm ... maybe a little AFC west prejudice there; I don't think those
     teams in the AFC West are all that good.

Speaking of West Virginia, a small high school in southern W.Va. is
wearing the Panther logo - sorta - on their helmets into the state
playoffs.

Recently, several small schools were consolidated into one regional
school. The students were allowed to pick the name of the school, the
mascot and the logo. They chose PikeView Panthers. And when it came time
to design a logo, they bootlegged the Panthers.

It's really sorta like the Panthers. It's the same logo but it's red
instead of blue and their helmets are black instead of silver.

The school never bothered to ask the Panthers if'n they could do it but
the Panthers don't want to do anything about it except refer it to the
attorneys to make sure that they don't lose the TM on their logo.

The PikeView Panthers will be playing perennial powerhouse Woodrow Wilson
in the AAA playoffs.

TTom

Today's big hype for the Panthers is that they are very seriously looking
at Miami's Warren Sapp for the No.1 overall NFL pick nexted year.

Sapp, who seems a lock for the Outland and who'll probably get some votes
for the Heisman is being looked at as a possible Bruce Smith type player.

When Poulan came here from Buffalo, the logic shifted from taking a QB to
build around to hoping Frank Reich comes over in free agency. The
Panthers have 3 of the top 35 or so picks so there's a good chance a real
prospect will be available. Now they seem to be looking at the proverbial
"best athlete" either D or O. 

Sapp's stock seems to be rising as the Hurricanes continue to move up the
polls, recovering from the loss to Washington. And, meanwhile, the talk
is that maybe he could come to Charlotte in a package plan with current
'Cane head coach, Dennis Erickson. Rumors are growing that Erickson may
be ready to head to the NFL. Certainly, beating Nebraska in the Orange
Bowl may make him think that there's not much left to do at the college
level and that it's time to move on.

TTom

    
    	Its probably a sound strategy not drafting a QB for the expansion
    teams. With Free agency, plus teams only being able to protect x amount
    of players. They can get a QB with some experience.
    	Also an expansion team is going to be lucky if they win 2 games. So
    they will have the top picks again next year.
    	Who are the top QB's that are going to be in next springs draft?
    If a QB doesn't rate in your top 3, I wouldn't take him. I don't
    see any Drew Bledsoe types out there. So wait they year to look at next
    years crop of QB's.
    
    Ron

I don't know the exact ratings but the ones locally being talked about
most are McNair of Alcorn and Walsh of BYU.

And of course, you probably gotta take a look at Zeier of Georgia.

TTom

    
    
    Chad May   KSU
    
    

In today's USA Today there's a "rating" of the top Collegiate QBs.

John Walsh, BYU and Rob Johnson, Southern Cal are rated "1-2".

Then, Kerry Collings, Penn St, Steve McNair, Alcorn St, and Eric Zeier,
Georgia "in a cluster".

Then, Dave Barr, California, and Steve Stenstrom, Stanford.

TTom

|Then, Dave Barr, California, and Steve Stenstrom, Stanford.

As I recall, these two have a face-off thised weekend in Berkely.

  Where's Chad May in that list ?

  A lot of people still take the attitude of "He plays for KSU so he can't
  be very good".

	Keith

Sorta, =Bob=.

Stanford does indeed make the trek over to Cal but Stentstrom's season
and career are through. He was hurt a couple of games ago and missed
lasted week's loss to da Ducks.

I don't think it's a very serious injury but enough to keep him out.

BTW, there's a rumor floating around that Walsh will quit as coach of
Stanford.

TTom

> |Then, Dave Barr, California, and Steve Stenstrom, Stanford.
> 
> As I recall, these two have a face-off thised weekend in Berkely.
    
    No, Stenstrom's down for the count with an injury.
    
    If it weren't for the fact that he has not had the important test of 
    top-rated competition, Steve McNair would probably be at the top of the
    list.  QBs are always tough to project, and this projection doubly so.  
    It'll come down to who will show the guts to assume the slightly bigger 
    risk.
    
    I wouldn't touch Kerry Collins with a first- or second-round pick, as 
    much as I might like him personally.  With his big wind-up and delivery 
    he just seems too mechanical, too stiff (no double meaning implied). 
    As much as he's improved, I also find it hard to believe that a truly
    great QB blossomed overnight like that.  This case might be the same as 
    McNair's on the other end of the spectrum; a tough projection because 
    there's so much talent on Collins' side of the line of scrimmage.
    
    glenn
     

    If I were drafting my top three would be Zeier, May, Walsh.  I haven't
    seen Johnson this year.
    
    Jimbo

    If I had the first pick in the draft, and had the opportunity to
    trade it for an early/mid first round pick plus a decent player or another 
    first/second round draft pick, I'd do it in a heartbeat. 
    
    A pick in the 5 to 15 range (of first round) would still land you
    an excellent PROSPECT  (Zeier, May, Collins, Carter, Wheatley, Stokes),
    you wouldn't tie up as much of your salary cap money, and you'd pick
    up another decent player/prospect.
    
    This philosophy would be different if I were drafting for an
    established team, but for an expansion team I'd say trade down
    A LITTLE and scarf an extra player or pick.
    
    Am not a huge college football fan, but here's my guess for the
    top five picks in the draft:
    	Sapp	
    	McNair
    	Walsh
    	Salaam
    	K.Carter
    
    The Panthers will make one more run at Joe Gibbs in the next week or
    two.  If he says no, it's on to plan B.  Names on the Plan B list
    are rumored to be Joe Bugel, Steve Spurrier, Dennis Erickson, 
    Bobby Bowden, and Tony Dungee.  
    
    Pat

All this talk about Kotite and now it looks like he's on the short list
of who the Panthers are considering for the head coaching job.

Joe Gibbs repeated his "NO" yesterday and now president Mike McCormack
starts his look. College coaches - Dennis Erickson and Steve Spurrier -
seem to be the frontrunners if'n they want it. And today they added
Kotite's name to the rumor mill, assuming that the Eagles are going to
make a chande up that there way.

McCormack is saying that he'll hire someone by January. Spurrier has a
clause in his current contract at Florida giving him a window to
interview with NFL. The catch is that he can only do it between now and
his bowl game on Jan 2. Erickson has no such restrictions and the rumor
of him and Warren Sapp coming as some kinda package continues.

TTom

The Panthers has signed their firsted players.

They're a collection of never-weres mostly. The biggest names in the
group are Lawyer Tillman and Tony Smith who was the top pick of the
Falcons a couple of years ago. All 10 are offensive players, including a
major heavy who's 6-9, 350 lbs.

Few if any of these are expected to even make the team.

Meanwhile, the Panthers are busy interviewing potential coaches. The
latest to be invited to town is former Bills coach, Kay Stephenson, who
coached when Poulian was GM up that there way.

Here's the schedule for building the Panthers:

	Dec. 27 - any NFL team can sign free agents
	Feb. 15 - dispersal draft for NFL veterans
	Feb. 17 - unrestricted free agent signing period begins
	Apr. 17 - restricted free agent signing period begins
	Arpil 22-23 - NFL college draft.	

TTom

    
    	The "big heavy" is 6' 9" and 375.  He's a tackle that was one
    	of Denver's last cuts.  What does that tell you?  :^)
    
    Claybone

He's Kevin Farkas, outta local Appalachian St.

And he aint alone on that end o' the scales. Another guy, Carlos Leomiti,
checks it at a cool 380.

Another local picked was Randy Cuthbert from Duke. Cuthbert looked like
he would stick in the NFL but that was before a he blew a knee.

TTom

>
>    
>    	The "big heavy" is 6' 9" and 375.  He's a tackle that was one
>    	of Denver's last cuts.  What does that tell you?  :^)
>    


Tells me that as soon as he gets cut, Dan Reeves and George Young will
snap him up.....8^)

The kick in the pants would be if'n Big Bad Dan came to Charlotte. 

He's been mentioned, along with many others, but he's not really been
considered because the rap on him is that he wants a lot of control about
running the team and the Panthers are looking for more of a_implementer.
The front office is making and will contiunue to make all the football
decisions.

TTom

>The kick in the pants would be if'n Big Bad Dan came to Charlotte. 

Oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please!!!!!!!


>He's been mentioned, along with many others, but he's not really been
>considered because the rap on him is that he wants a lot of control about
>running the team and the Panthers are looking for more of a_implementer.
>The front office is making and will contiunue to make all the football
>decisions.

Yeah, Mike Childs and I could NEVER get *THAT* lucky!

Seriously.

The Panthers have put everyone being considered into one of two camps.
Control Freaks, including Big Bad Dan, Jimmy Johnson, and those that
they'd consider. Hence their interest in Kotite. They think that he's OK,
at least OK enough to consider, and that he'll do what they tell him to
do.

TTom

    
    	Rollin' 'Saw!  The thing that gets me is Big Dan always talks
    	nice about you....  :^)
    
    Claybone

>    	Rollin' 'Saw!  The thing that gets me is Big Dan always talks
>    	nice about you....  :^)
    
I know, I shouldn't take advantage of him like that should I.....8^)

Today's update on potential Panthers coaches:

Rich Kotite stock has fallen as the Eagles have lost 6 in a row. Kotite
still thinks he's a "credible" candidate based on looking at what he's
done over the 4 years he's been in Philly. The Panthers have moved him
down the list.

Still being mentioned, in no particular order, Miami Hurricane head coach
Dennis Erickson, Viking defensive coordinator Tony Dungy, Steelers
defensive coordinator Dom Capers, Seattle defensive coordinator Rusty
Tillman, and former Bills coach Kay Stephenson.

Mike McCormack says that he'll make a decision in January.

TTom

I guess Kotite is available. He should have time to come down and
interview, at least. Lurie gave him his walking papers. I haven't seen
anything about the buy out or whether it's dependent on Kotite getting
another job, etc.

Also, in a move that may set the tone for the dispersal draft, Buddy Ryan
and the Cards have made it known that they'll expose Steve Beuerlein,
Gary Clark and local talent Ricky Proehl (Wake). All make over a million
and nobody expressed any interest in any deals involving them.

Beuerlein and Proehl wouldn't be to bad to have. A mil each doesn't sound
that bad. Clark is passed his years.

So maybe the way the NFL will deal with this dispersal draft is to put
the high dollar players that they no longer want on the block, hoping
that Charlotte or J'ville will take them off their hands.

TTom

    When is the Dispersal draft and what are the specific roster rules for
    this? ( how many must a team protect, how many can they lose.)
    I wonder if ESPN will cover it like they did the MLB expansion draft?
    

On Jan 17, each club, excepted for the 2 in the Super Bowl must expose 6
players. They have to be under current contract. Up til the 17th, neither
Charlotte nor J'ville can talk to anyone under contract.

J'ville gets the firsted pick since Charlotte won the flip of the coin
and opted to get the firsted pick in the college draft.

No current team can lose more than 3 players in this draft.

It looks like the 2 biggest issues will be money and injuries. If'n the
Cards are setting a trend, look for some relatively big names to be
available with relatively big salaries. 

As for injuries, the NFL will allow clubs to expose players that are
injured, even if'n they require surgery, as long as they do not have a
career threatening injury. Both Charlotte and J'ville have protested
mainly on the basis of no standards by which to judge the injuries and
the fack that it's entirely up to the club to say how bad the injury is.

TTom

And on another Panther front, the opponents for 95 have now been
determined.

There's the home-and-home series with the other NFC West, namely, San
Francisco, Atlanta, LA_soon_to_be_St_Louis Rams, and New Orleans.

Other home games: Arizona, Indianapolis, NY Jets, and Tampa Bay.

Other away games: New England, Buffalo, Chicago and Washington.

TTom

    Also, today begins another "signing" period for all non-playoff
    teams.  Development squad players from all non-playoff teams are
    now eligible to entertain offers.
    
    Look for Jax and Charlotte to pick up a couple of these folks
    in the next week or so.  From the best I can tell, development
    squad players are designated first or second year players, not
    on a team's active roster, and either one-year or non-guaranteed
    contracts. 
    
    As playoff teams are eliminated, their development squad players
    hit the market.
    
    Heard an interview with Panther GM, Bill Polian, last night.
    He refused to directly comment about his interest in former 
    Philly Eagle coach Rich Kotite.  After several callers blasted
    Kotite and warned Polian NOT to hire him for typical fan reasons,
    Polian blasted back saying that the fans are entitled to their
    opinion, BUT that his and Mike McCormack's livelihood depended on
    them hiring the best people available - regardless of public sentiment.
    
    Polian also took a dig at the local media for suggesting coaching 
    candidates and establishing a front-runner - as it is impacting his 
    ability to interview current coordinators on NFL teams.
    
    I would say the list still includes Kotite, Dungey, and Erickson.
    I hope Mike Shanahan (49er offensive coordinator) name emerges.
    Timetable is (still) to hire a coach by mid-January.
    
    Pat

>>               <<< Note 142.125 by HBAHBA::HAAS "dingle lingo" >>>
>>                          -< some of da way it works >-

>>On Jan 17, each club, excepted for the 2 in the Super Bowl must expose 6
>>players. They have to be under current contract. Up til the 17th, neither
>>Charlotte nor J'ville can talk to anyone under contract.

What about the Super Bowl teams?  Do they not have to expose anyone?  If
so, this seems to be opposite of how the NFL usually operates.  By that,
I mean that typically the higher a team finishes, the further down
the line they start in next year's draft, etc.  Isn't there even a
rule that restricts the top four finishers from signing a high dollar
free agent except to replace one that they lost?

Or do the Super Bowl teams just wait until after the big game before
they have to declare who they'll expose?  If that's the case, then it
seems kind of silly for other teams to have to do this on the 17th.

Oh well, no one ever accused the NFL of making sense.

Jerry

The draft is after the Super Bowl.

Shortly after the Super Bowl, San Fran and Pittsburgh, I mean the NFC and
AFC winners, will donate their players to the pool.

>Oh well, no one ever accused the NFL of making sense.

The No Fun League sorta makes it up as they go along with this and other
rules.

TTom

And the coaching interview tour has started...

Thised week, the Panthers went up north and interviewed Steeler Defensive
Coordinator, Dom Capers, and then scooted on over to Philly to talk with
recently deposed Eagles head, Rich Kotite.

They've schedule a_interview with Buffalo assistant head coach, Elijah
Pitts and then ex-coach kay Stephenson.

The Panthers had wanted to go slowly with this, possibly waiting until
after the superbowl but with all the recent firings, they figger they
better make their move.

TTom

It's starting to look like this is a done deal and the price tag may be
very steep.

It is being reported that Steelers defensive coordinator, Dom Capers,
will be the firsted head coach of the Panthers. The local press is
reporting that when the Panthers met with him lasted week, he was offered
the job and accepted. Pittsburgh media is said to be confirming this.

Here's the rub: the Panthers weren't supposed to be even talking to
Capers who's still under contract with Pittsburgh and is off limits to
these types of discussions.

Preliminary rumors have league ready to make the stiffest penalty, a loss
of a firsted round draft choice. The team and league meet today and
without a better story than "Ooops" the team will be fined.

Great start by the front office :-(.

TTom

    I think the Panthers gambled on breaking the rules, with just reason.
    
    Yea, they weren't supposed to talk to the staff of active teams, but
    	- other teams did it in the recent past (Redskins/Turner, 
    	  Bears/Wanstadt) with no repurcussions from the NFL
    
    	- they seeked and obtained permission from the Steelers before
    	  talking to Capers
    
    	- evidently three college teams violated this rule in recent weeks
    	  by signing active NFL assistants to head coaching jobs.  The
    	  NFL said nary a word (this looks like good precedent to me...).
    	  Does this mean that the colleges can talk to whomever they 
    	  want, whenever they want and hire coaching talent, while other
    	  NFL teams cannot?
    
    	- the Seahawks and Broncos both dumped their head coaches last week
    	  and are now looking as well.
    
    So, why not test the rules and see if you can be the first to pry
    Capers away?  You snooze you lose.  He's got good references, etc, 
    and his stock is rising.
    
    Bill Polian, Panther GM, said last night that they WILL GET their first
    choice of coaches (other than Joe Gibbs).  They have targetted someone
    and believe that it's a done deal.  
    
    I'd rather see them be agressive in getting a decent coach and risk
    getting their hand slapped, than following protocol and being stuck
    with a mediocre or weak retread.
    
    The meeting with the NFL was supposed to happen this morning.  Don't
    know if the NFL will rule immediately or sit on it for a few days.
    
    Pat

Yeah, we know all that ;-)

But the problem I have with this is that this is the firsted big move the
Panthers make it breaks a_NFL rule. Real smart, there, boys.

FWIW, the NFL has only punished one team with the loss of a firsted round
draft choice: Miami who was found guilty of tampering in luring then
Baltimore Colts coach, Don Shula, to Miami.

The Panthers are likely to suffer from a similar episode when the Bears
hired Wannstedt, even though they had permission from the Cowboys to talk
to him. Wannstedt was hired before the Super Bowl was played.

TTom

.132:
 
>   	- evidently three college teams violated this rule in recent weeks
>   	  by signing active NFL assistants to head coaching jobs.  The
>   	  NFL said nary a word (this looks like good precedent to me...).
>   	  Does this mean that the colleges can talk to whomever they 
>   	  want, whenever they want and hire coaching talent, while other
>   	  NFL teams cannot?

Yeah, Pat, that's pretty much what it means.  The NFL's rules do not
apply to the NCAA or the CFA or whatever.  Those are run by a different
bunch of gangsters.

Steve

    
    	Its the NFL's own fault. Its okay to talk to coaches on non-playoff
    teams or as soon as a teams season ends. Yet, you can't talk to
    coaches still in the playoffs. It gives coaches from non-playoffs teams
    an advantage. They get fired first and can get re-hired first.
    	If they don't want teams talking to coaches whose teams are still
    playing. They should just say NOBODY can talk to ANYBODY until after
    the Super Bowl. Regardless if there team is playing or not.
    	Since its the Panthers 1st offense they will only get a slap on
    the wrist, maybe a small fine. There is no-way the NFL will take
    away there 1st round draft pick. Which happens to be the #1 pick
    in the NFL.
    
    Ron

Wail, actually they have 2 picks in the firsted round: the firsted and
the lasted. And I hope you're right.

The rule's a joke but that's all part of the wonderful world of sports.
If'n you got rules about where players can come and go, I guess you outta
just restrict everyone, including the coaches, the teams and the owners.

What a joke: Charlotte caint talk to Pittsburgh about a coach but the
Rams can be sold to St. Louis.
 
TTom

> What a joke: Charlotte caint talk to Pittsburgh about a coach but the
> Rams can be sold to St. Louis.

I'd wait for an expansion team before I'd want the Rams.

Steve

The NFL has spoken and the Panthers have been penalized for talking with
Pittsburgh Defensive Coordinator Dom Capers.

The Panthers have been fined $150K and have lost 2 draft picks, the
supplimental picks in the 2nd and 6th round. Charlotte and Jacksonville
get one supplemental pick in each of the 7 rounds of the college draft.
They get one pick at the beginning of each round with the supplemental
pick coming at the end of each round.

The 2nd round pick that was lost woulda been about the 60th person taken
overall.

Pittsburgh was fined $50K for participating in this. They granted the
Panthers permission to talk to Capers.

FWIW, it's being reported that Capers agreed to the offer. No one can or
will say anything until after the Super Bowl.

TTom

    Let me get this straight. The Panthers called the Steelers and ask for
    permission to talk to an assistant coach. The Steelers say ok. The
    coach says ok. The NFL says what are you doing and fines each team,
    takes draft picks away from one team? Yet the Iggles give permission
    for their coach Kotite to talk to the Panthers during the regular
    season while he's still their Head coach but that's ok? I'm sure there
    is some logic somewhere? 
    
    Mike

    The Eagles never gave permission to the Panthers to talk to Kotite
    during the season. Any talks that went on were "informal" and, had
    Kotite been hired by Carolina, they was talk of the Eagles asking for
    an investigation.
    
    The GM of the Panthers was at every Eagles home game this year, but
    that was approved by the NFL before the season started and they were
    not to be talking to coaches about employment opportunities.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

The league has a rule about one team not talking to another team's
coaches until after the season is over. The season aint over for the
Steelers so the league fined 'em both.

Charlotte never talked to Kotite or the Eagles about anything until he
got the heave in Philly. Under terms of the release his contract was
bought out so he's free to talk to anybody. He's intereviewed with the
Panthers but after his firing.

So here we are, one of the firsted official league functions - hire a
coach - and the Panthers blow it. Their actions indicate that they are at
best stupid (like, how 'bout asking the league if'n it's OK to talk to
Capers, huh?) and at worst cavalier with what they do, rules be damned.

Or maybe they didn't even think about it.

TTom

    so what was the fine?
    

>                          -< 150K and 2 draft picks >-

>The Panthers have been fined $150K and have lost 2 draft picks, the

You mean that fine? The one mentioned in .138?

>Pittsburgh was fined $50K for participating in this. They granted the

Or that fine? The other one mentioned in .138? ;-)

In the case of the firsted, it's not fine with me. I'm bummed :=(

In the case of the seconded, if'n it's wine with you it tokay with me.

TTom

    who did they lose the draft picks to Dr. Tom???
    

    The answer is... B  -   cavalier!
    
    Polian said last night that they weighed the risk of being penalized
    and decided to take that risk in order to talk to Capers.  Capers is
    their man and they were willing to risk money and picks to get him...
    before a college or another pro team snagged him.
    
    Polian also indicated that one of the three NFL assistant coaches already
    hired by a college program was on their list of candidates but the 
    Panthers never got a chance to contact him due to the silly NFL rules.
    
    I disagree TTom, I don't think they blew it all.  They knew the rules,
    and decided to test them for a chance to get their top choice of
    coaches.  Capers stock has been rising, and the Panthers made an
    aggressive move to get their main man before he pisaddeared.
    
    If Capers is in the bag, as a lot of folks close to the situation
    believe, two (extra) middle round draft picks and a handful of cash is 
    a small price to pay to get him.  
    
    I think it was a somewhat unethical, but brilliant move.
    
    Pat

You've expanded the list to includes 

	c. Dishonest

As in the response from the team about their surprise and almost
indignation over the penalties. They should just fess up and say we kneew
the rules, we broke for whatever reasons and now we got what we wanted -
Capers and fines and loss of draft picks.

Hardly brilliant. Me thinks you give them more credit than I. Of course,
they got my money and not yours ;-).

TTom

    Aha, the correct answer is (ding)
    	d. cavalier and dishonest
    
    These guys are laughing about the whole event and slap on the wrist.
    They think they got their man for a small price and a little bit
    of bad pub.  The NFL will get over it too.  They'll forget about this
    issue as soon as they get back to counting their money.
    
    BTW, TTom - I'm surprised by your ethics and high moral standards!   : )
    
    Still applauding...
    Pat

Of the following three qualities:

	1. virtue
	2. intelligence
	3. wealth

which is most likely to be found in the ownership of a franchise
in professional sports?

I'm not saying the correct answer also rules out possession of
the other two, but...

Steve

So, what is going on with the Panthers and Frank Reich?  It should be any 
day now.  The Bills are basically going to back the truck up.   What I see
happening is that the Panthers will draft a QB from the rich QB draft this 
year, and have Reich be his mentor.  Frank deserves a shot.  As a long 
time fan of the Bills (ha ha ha) I think he deserves a shot.  Kelly had to 
be carried out on a stretcher (sic?) in order for Reich to play.   The man
is hungry...Just hope that they get a reasonable line to keep him from getting 
killed.  A couple more free agent options too from the Bills, for the 'Pans...

Darryl Talley
Kenneth Davis


Two guys who would look in Panther Uni.

Paul

re: Reich.

That rumor was a lot hotter a month or so ago. In the meanwhile, the
Cards may have shown the way that the dispersal draft may go: high priced
players being put up for grabs by the Panthers and the Jags. Beuerlein is
a_example of the QBs that Charlotte and J'ville might be able to grab.

The question is, with Reich being a free agent, how much will he cost.
With Beuerlein you know you can have him for a little more than a mil.
Reich will be better bids than that.

TTom

    Now that the Steelers lost, the earliest the Panthers can announce
    Pittsburgh's defensive coordinator Dom Capers as their head coach
    is Friday at 6:00 pm.  Let's see what happens...
    
    Pat

It still looks like Capers is headed south the Charlotte even though it
caint be made official until Friday.

Meanwhile, Mel Kiper has listed what he thinks will be the firsted 7
picks in the draft:

1. Panthers - Warren Sapp, DT, Miami
2. J'Ville - Kerry Collins, QB, Penn St
3. Houston - Steve McNair, QB, Alcorn St ("He could drop with a poor
	Senior Bowl.")
4. Washington - Ki-Jana Carter, RB, Penn St ("He could be as good as
	Emmitt Smith.")
5. Cincinnati - Tony Boselli, OT, Southern Cal
6. St. Louis - J.J. Stokes, WR, UCLA
7. Seattle - Michael Westbrook, WR, Colorado

Kiper originally had the Panthers taking Simeon Rice, LB, Illinois. Rice
chose to stay in college and by-passed thised year's draft.

TTom

Where does he place Salaam??

The Crazy Met

Evidently not in the top 7.

All along Kiper has not been too keen on RushOn. He's always said that
the onliest reason why he might be the #1 RB is if'n Ki-Jana doesn't come
out.

I wouldn't be all that surprised if'n the Panthers took Ki-Jana. The
selection for the dispersal draft is looking very interesting. Maybe
McCormack and Poulian can talk to Carmen Policy and find out how that
defered incentive stuff works.

TTom

> 2. J'Ville - Kerry Collins, QB, Penn St
    
    I'd love to be proven wrong because I'd like to see the guy succeed in
    the NFL, but I think this pick would be a ridiculously foolish gamble
    at #2.  Firstly for an expansion team to take a QB at all, and secondly 
    to take one with as brief a period of success behind as talented a
    supporting cast as Collins had.  I don't see Collins being in that 
    Elway/Bledsoe class coming out college to justify so high a pick. 
    Physically, while he has all the tools, he's more mechanical than 
    athletic.
    
    Some of the same arguments can probably be made against McNair,
    who perhaps has lesser tools although is more the poised all-around
    athlete, like a Montana.  Still a big risk... 
    
    glenn
    

Glenn,

Between now and the draft all the prospects will be evaluated.

There's the year end bowls like the Hula Bowl and Senior Bowl.

Then there's the combines where everyone is looked at for speed, etc.

If Collins can prove his muster in those, he'll go very high. Kiper feels
that he has very good mechanics. And he's got the good size the the NFL
feels it needs to be a successful QB.

TTom

  The thing that bothers me about Collins is that everytime I've
  seen him play, he's had all day to throw. The PSU offensive line
  did such a great job that it's been impossible to tell how good he
  is when under pressure.

  I think Rush_On will be a fine pro. Sometimes he'll remind people of
  Eric Dickerson. Other times he may resemble Bo Jackson or Barry Foster.

	Keith 

    Speculating on how good someone will do as a pro football player
    is a long shot at best.  Just take a gander at how well the top
    picks in last years draft did last season.  That's not to say it 
    never pans out, but it seems like it's less than 50-50.
    
    
    billl

Yup, Rush_On could very well end up as the pick that everyone wonders how
he went so low. Emmit Smith and Dan Marino are two good examples of this.

The Crazy Met

       Kerry Collins at #2??? That's worse than him having Simeon 
      Rice going at #1. If you're an expansion team and you're going
      to take the huge risk of taking a QB at #2, you have to take MacNair.
      Of all the QBs he's the best athlete, has the best arm and did
      things none of the rest of them could do. Even so, predicting
      the draft order before the list of non-protected players comes 
      out is a crapshoot.
    
      BTW - I'd have to believe that Bobby Taylor, CB out of Notre Dame has
            to be high on somebody's wish list. He's on mine for the Patsies.
    

McNair is not in the Panthers plans.

The complete list of castoffs has been published. I don't have it yet but
there are some surprises.

The biggest has to be Michael Dean Perry. Obviously, Cleveburgh is
dumping him because of his salary, ~2.5 mil. The local talk shows are
saying that both Charlotte and Jville were surprised and very intersted.

TTom

> Even so, predicting
> the draft order before the list of non-protected players comes 
> out is a crapshoot.                       
    
    I wouldn't think it should make that much difference, not for the
    high first-round draftees.  It doesn't appear that there will be 
    many close-to-primetime players gained or lost in this dispersal 
    draft (maybe a few with excessive salaries) and the expansion teams
    should definitely be in "best available athlete" mode.  The exception 
    might be, as you say, at QB.  I can see an expansion team saying, 
    well, we'll take a Cody Carlson equivalent and stick with him until
    we get a lot better.
    
    I'd bet the house on Ki-Jana Carter.  I think he is a great instinctive
    hit-the-hole-and-explode runner like Emmitt Smith (talking style, not
    saying he's going to be better), with more speed (the speed part 
    tends to be overrated).  If he ends up with an expansion team or
    Houston, though, there could be some frustrating years.  Washington is
    my favorite team in the NFC and I'd love to see him there... 
    
    glenn
    

> The biggest has to be Michael Dean Perry. Obviously, Cleveburgh is
> dumping him because of his salary, ~2.5 mil.
    
    And, this is yet another guy that "Bubblin'" Bill Belicheck doesn't get
    along with.  But he did have something of an off year...
    
    glenn
    

    
      Michael Dean had more than an "off-year", Pro Bowl selection
     or not. From what I saw of him, he was a complete non-factor and
     it wasn't the result of being double- or triple-teamed. I think
     he made the Pro Bowl via the Mecklenburg Factor, that is a player
     who has played at a high level for so long that his contemporaries
     automatically right his name down when voting time comes. Michael
     Dean has definitely lost something whether he can find it again
     next season is doubtful. Obviously, the Browns don't think he can.

    Chris (Crybaby) Miller was unprotected (in more ways than one!)
    
    There is speculation that Desmond Howard may be on the list too.
    
    UMDan

Yeah, I heard Howard was on the list, too.

Also from Atlanta are Doleman and Holt, 2 high-priced defensive players.
Holt seems a bit over the hill and Doleman has a head problem.

TTom

From the NFl allocation draft, some of the players that interest this 
noter:

	Steve Beuerlein, QB, Arizona
	Ricky Proehl, WR, Arizona
	Donte Jones, LB, Chicago
	Mark Carrier, WR, Cleveland
	Jason Garrett, QB, Dallas
	Sean Jones, DL, Green Bay
	Charles Davenport, WR, Pittsburgh
	Ethan Horton, TE, Washington

The complete list has been published, excepted for the Chargers and the 
Niners.

TTom

What you have to worry about is both how much these guys will cost you as
well as how much they have left in them.

A good example is Pierce Holt who has a couple of rings with San Fran
afore he was traded to Atlanta. Now he's making some major bucks, ~2.5
mil, but his better days seem to be behind him.

Clark seems like another one over the hill.

TTom

Yeah, it's so unfair of those two teams to have the temerity to actually
win something and go to the Super Bowl.

Teams with honor and integrity had the decency to lose so they wouldn't
be in this untenable position.

I think a_independent prosecutor should investigate soon.

TTom

>    I think it's ridiculous that the two super bowl teams get two extra
>    weeks to submit their list.  Now they can collect the other lists,
>    and determine which positions are stocked and expose players they may
>    not have originally intended to expose.
    
    I don't think it'll be that scientific, Paul.  More like "let's get rid 
    of our overpaid stiffs if anyone'll have 'em".  On second thought, maybe 
    the Super Bowl teams can examine the lists and see which positions
    _aren't_ as stocked and expose those players.  Which is also why the NFL 
    imposed not just a maximum but a minimum number of players which the
    expansion teams _have_ to take.
    
    glenn
    

The Panthers have indicated their short list of their Top 5 draftees.
These were released by the local paper. Alphabetically:

	Keving Carter, DL, Florida
	Ki-Jana Carter, RB, Penn St
	Kerry Collins, QB, Penn St
	Steve McNair, QB, Alcorn St
	Warren Sapp, DL, Miami-FL

Of note, Chad May, who ws being considered, has dropped off the list. His
performances in post season may have convinced the Panthers that he
weren't worth a high pick.

And Dom Capers will be officially part of the Panther family tomorrow.

TTom

    TTom, minor nit with your previous note.
    
    The Panthers did not release their short list, rather Steve McNair.
    McNair had dinner with Panthers brass Friday night.  When told he
    was one of their top five prospects, he asked who the other four
    were.  McNair's the one who provided the Top 5 list to the local
    reporter.
    
    It will be interesting to see if/how Panther management responds in
    upcoming days.  My guess is they were not expecting this information
    to be released.  
    
    McNair looked fair in the Senior Bowl.  Collins look fair as well.
    The other QB's sucked.
    
    I still say trade down for a mid-first round pick and other goodies
    if you can get it.  T'aint worth the salary cap money and risk to
    keep the #1 pick in the draft.
    
    Capers to be introduced as head coach at 1:00 news conference today.
    More assistant coaches are being named as well.  One of Capers'
    assistants in Pittsburgh is coming with him.
    
    Pat

 1. Rod Smith, DB, New England
	5-11, 187, 24, Notre Dame, RFA, $622,700

 2. Harry Boatswain, OT, San Francisco
	6-4, 295, 25, New Haven, $600,000

 3. Kurt Haws, TE, Washington
	6-3, 248, 25, Utah, $177,000

 4. Tyrone Rodgers, DE, Seattle
	6-3, 266, 25, Washington, RFA, $163,600

 5. Mark Thomas, DE, San Francisco
	6-5, 259, 25, NC State, ER, $241,100

 6. Tim McKyer, DB, Pittsburgh
	6-0, 174, 31, Texas-Arlington, $302,000

 7. Curtis Whitley, C, San Diego
	61-, 285, 25, Clemson, ER $163,400

 8. Howard Griffith, RB, Rams
	6-0, 226, 27, Illinois,ER, $135,400

 9. Greg  Kragen, DT, Kansas City
	6-3, 265, 32, Utah St, $350,000

10. Cary Brabham, DB, Raiders
	6-0, 195, 24, SMU, $135,000

11. Dave Garnett, LB, Minnesota
	6-2, 219, 24, Stanford, ER, $143,300

12. Andre Powell, LB, Giants
	6-1, 235, 25, Penn St, ER, $199,800

13. Dewell Brewer, RB, Indianapolis
	5-8, 199, 24, Oklahoma, $135,000

14. Bob Christian, RB, Chicago
	5-10, 225, 26, Northwestern, ER, $152,900

15. Fred Foggie, DB, Pittsburgh
	6-0, 200, 25, Minnesota, $148,500

16. Mark Carrier, WR, Cleveland
	6-1, 190, 26, Southern Cal, $1,250,400

17. Mark Rodenhauser, C, Detroit
	6-5, 280, 33, Illinois So., $175,000

18. Steve Hawkins, WR, New England
	6-5, 207, 23, W Michigan, $150,000

19. Brian O'Neal, RB, Philadelphia
	6-0, 233, 24, Penn St, ER, $108,400

20. Derrick Lassic, RB, Dallas
	5-10, 188, 25, Alabama, $193,334

21. Richard Buchanan, WR, LA Rams
	5-10, 178, 25, Northwestern, ER, $135,000

22. Doug Pederson, QB, Miami
	6-3, 209, 27, NE Louisiana, ER, $141,000

23. Vince Marrow, TE, Buffalo
	6-3, 251, 26, Toledo, $175,000

24. Larry Ryans, WR, Detroit
	5-11, 182, 23, Clemson, $108,000

25. Baron Rollins, G, New Orleans
	6-4, 335, 24, Louisiana Tech, $212,500

26. William Sims, LB, Minnesota
	6-2, 232, 25, Purdue, $165,000

27. Paul Butcher, LB, Indianapolis
	6-0, 230, 31, Wayne St, $225,000

28. Jack Trudeau, QB, NY Jets
	6-3, 227, 32, Illinois, $912,000

29. Charles Swann, WR, Denver
	6-1, 188, 24, Indiana St, ER, $108,000

30. David Mims, WR, Atlanta
	5-8, 191, 24, Baylor, ER, $138,000

31. Shawn Price, DE, Tampa Bay
	6-3, 260, 24, Pacific, $175,000

32. Charlotte - Eric Guilford, WR, Minnesota
	5-8, 165, 25, Arizona St, ER, $139,700

33. Charlotte - Bill Goldberg, DT, Atlanta
	6-2, 280, 28, Georgia, ER, $164,800

34. Eric Ball, RB, Cincinnati
	6-2, 220, 28, UCLA, $275,000

35. Mike Teeter, DT, Houston
	6-3, 272, 27, Michigan, RFA, $217,500

RFA = Restricted Free Agent
	> 3 years in league, free to talk to others, offer can be matched
ER  = Exclusive Rights Free Agent
	< 3 years in league, salary will be increased

How does this thing work? What's the dollar figure mean?

Cheers,

Mike

    
    	Charlotte and Jacksonville have are limited to the salary cap
    just like all the other teams. The salary's listed is what each
    player is making. Add them all up and that is the current payroll
    for each team. They had to assume the current contract of all players
    they selected.
    
    Ron

    Jacksonville spent approx. $15.35M in the draft.
    
    Charlotte spent approx. $9.4M in the draft.
    
    The NFL "required" the expansion teams to spend at least $14M in the
    draft, but a loophole exists that allows a team to spend less than
    the $14M provided at least 30 of the players taken Wednesday are still
    on their roster on July 15.
    
    Looks like Charlotte has a lot of money to spend on Free Agents.
    
    May have to catch a game this year, as they will be playing at Clemson
    (park your tractor over there, dude) University stadium, approx. 2
    hours from Atlanta.
    
    UMDan 

The salaries are indeed what the players made lasted year.

For restricted free agents, they can try to shop themselves to other
teams but the expansion teams have the opportunity to match any and all
offers. This may result in a_increase to the payroll.

For the Exclusive Rights free agents, their salaries are expected to risa
approximately 10%.

TTom

Well, the Free Agent market is officially open.

Over the weekend, Charlotte signed defensive lineman Mike Fox, from the 
Giants. Fox, who's 27, 6-6, 288, will most definitely start nexted year 
for the Panthers. The deal is rumored to be for about about a mil a year 
with a couple mil signing bonus. Fox, BTW, is a good ol' West Virginee 
Mountaineer alum, making this noter spatially happy.

And today, they signed John Kasay, the ex-kicker for Seattle. I just 
heard this and they dint have any terms or conditions but the local rag 
is projecting a salary of just under a mil a year.

And today, another free agent, Pittsburgh safety Greg Jones, is in town 
talking turkey. He may be folowing Dom Capers to the Panthers.

And on another front, the Panthers have really pulled one off. They 
managed to get about $900K from a_old anti-poverty relic, the Appalachian 
Regional Commission, to build their practice field in South Carolina. One 
can only imagine how Jerry Richardson and his pals like Hugh McCall (CEO 
of NationsBank) qualify for poverty status.

TTom

The free agency merry-go-round continues.

So far, the Panthers have signed 4: DT Mike Fox, formerly of the Giants; 
OT Derrick Graham, formerly of the Chiefs; Kicker John Kasay, formerly of 
Seattle; Randy Baldwin, formerly of Cleveburgh.

Thised weeks entries:

Bryce Paup, DE, Green Bay, who's also visiting about everyone else.
Frank Reich, QB, Buffalo, who knows he's worth a bunch to someone and
	wants to get a commitment to be a starter
Pete Metzelaars, TE, Buffalo, who continues the Polian connection to the 
	Bills. The Panthers chose Kurt Haws and wouldn't mind having
	ol' Pete start some and tutor a lot.
Don Beebe, WR, Buffalo, <ditto>, of speed and concussions fame
Dave Krieg, QB, Detroit, who came in and led the Lions to the playoffs.

And on a related note, the Charlotte Touchdown Club meeting today will be 
hosted by Dom Capers who will give a_award to none other that Warren 
Sapp, who's way up on the short list of who might be the #1 pick.

What the Panthers do in the draft is really dependent on what all is 
settled at that time through the free agency route. Certainly, a key 
position is looking like the QB. The local thinking is if'n Reich is 
signed then Sapp might be the pick. If'n Kreig is signed, that almost 
looks like a commitment to get one of the better QBs in the draft - 
McNair or Collins, most likely - and use Kreig to start early and give 
the pick time to work his way in.

All in all, it's a lot more interesting time for football with a team 
than without one.

TTom

One more signed.

Punter, Tommy Barnhardt, most recently of Saintdom fame, has been signed 
to a contract whose terms have yet to be disclosed. Barnhardt, who played 
for No Carolina, is the Saints all-time leading punter. This will be his 
9th season.

In other movements, the free agency QB situation is coming down to Dave 
Krieg and Frank Reich. Basically, the Panthers seem to be happy with 
either but it all depends on what other offers both get. Both are touring 
the league.

James Williams was also in town yesterday. Williams played corner for the 
Cards lasted year after playing for Buffalo while Polian was there.

Another Steeler is due in town, Dwight "Rocky" Stone, who's been playing 
WR for the lasted couple of years.

TTom

>Another Steeler is due in town, Dwight "Rocky" Stone, who's been playing 
>WR for the lasted couple of years.
    
    More appropriatly known as Dwight "Hands of" Stone.
    
    
    billl

  Dwight Stone has "Beep Beep" speed as described by Chuck Noll.

  However, the "Hands of" Stone is an appropriate nickname. Last year,
  the Steelers were mostly using him on special teams. But with his speed,
  he can still make the big play on the reverse.

	Keith

And now there's 7...

James Williams just signed with the Panthers. Williams played for Arizona
after several years with Buffalo. It's another case of the Polian
connection. Williams plays at the corner.

The more they sign defensive free agents, the more it looks like they're
looking at drafting some offense. Officially, they're not saying this but
it sure looks like they're letting Dom Capers load up with defensive
players so sooner or later the Panthers better get somebody to run and
throw and catch the ball.

TTom

    I think Capers is using the Rooney-Noll method of building a great
    defense first, then going after an offense.  It worked in the 'burgh
    and in Dallas, to name a few.
    
    
    
    billl

Sure does look like it , billlllll.

I guess with all this D and very little O the under might be a tempting
proposition ;-).

TTom

    
    Williams is a decent player, with terrible luck.  He seemed to fall or
    have something screw up on him at inopportune times last year.  He lost
    a couple games for the Cards.
    
    boC

And the beat goes on ...

A bunch of signings. 

  o TE, Pete Metzelaars, formerly of Buffalo (signed yesterday)
  o LB, Frank Stams, formerly of Cleveburgh (signed yesterday)
  o LB, Sam Mills, formerly of New Orleans (signs today)
  o Return Specialist, Vernon Turner, formerly of Tampa Bay (signs today)

Others in the works included WR Dwight Stone (Pittsburgh) and safety
Brett Maxie (Atlanta).

TTom

Wail, the Panthers got their man.

Frank Reich, former backup to Jim Kelly and the Bills, has was signed to
a 1 year, $1.25 mil contract.

Although everyone at the press conference said that no promises were
made, Reich is expected to start for the Panthers. Reich was lavish in
his praises for Kelly and the Bills but the deal really hinged on getting
a chance to start.

Reich, 33, will most likely start and this gives the Panthers the option
of drafting a QB without the pressure of having that rookie start. The
current rumors are that the Panthers will not take a QB as the firsted
overall pick. There's a lot of rumors that have them trading down for
players and picks.

On another front, the league has ruled that the blackout rule will be
applied to Charlotte. The firsted season, the games will be played at
Clemson which is beyond the range of the normal blackout. But the league
ruled that the blackout was intended for the home town's audience. So
this means that unless the Panthers sell out Death Valley, their games
caint be shown in Charlotte. Clemson seats about 80K while the new and as
yet incomplete stadium in Charlotte seats about 70K.

TTom

>On another front, the league has ruled that the blackout rule will be
>applied to Charlotte. The firsted season, the games will be played at
>Clemson which is beyond the range of the normal blackout. But the league
>ruled that the blackout was intended for the home town's audience. So
>this means that unless the Panthers sell out Death Valley, their games
>caint be shown in Charlotte. Clemson seats about 80K while the new and as
>yet incomplete stadium in Charlotte seats about 70K.

Hmmm....I could see making an argument for no blackout in the first
year to build support for the team in any way you can.

I think that this was considered but it looks like Jacksonville will sell
out. As it stands right now, even the 70K stadium in Charlotte hasn't
been sold out. The ticket drive is how you say stalled at about 8K less
than capacity.

The firsted year, you didn't have to buy the season tickets for Clemson
and apparently a lot of people took this option. The bad part would be
if'n the stadium gets aonly about 60K which is 20k less than capacity.
It'll look bad on TV like the team is lacking support and nobody in
Charlotte will be able to watch it legally. I'd expect a pretty brisk
bootleg industry, however.

TTom

More terms have been published concerning Frank Reich's contract. Here's
the bonuses:

	$100K if'n he makes the roster
	$50K relocation bonus
	$25K each exhibition game he starts
	$30 per game when he takes 52% of the snaps

All of this could add up to around $1.8 mil.

Also, there seems to be some dispute among the rating services on what
the rankings are for QB prospects. Two of the scouting combines differ.

National has it as Kerry Collins, Penn St; Steve McNair, Alcorn; Rob
Johson, Southern Cal; Eric Zeier, Georgia; Chad May, Kansas St.

Blestro has it as McNair, Collins, Johnson, May, Zeier.

Big difference.

And one more QB note. McNair and others are attending a clinic put on by
Bill Walsh that costs somewhere between $10K and $30K depending on the
prospect's ratings.

And meanwhile, camp has started for about 70 Panthers.

TTom

    re: -1
    
    That $30 per game for taking at least 52% of the snaps must have made
    Frank really jump for joy! ;^)
    
    Glen.

Yep,

Sometimes the circuit between the fingers and the brain doesn't work that
well.

What I wanna know is who figgered out the 52% part?

TTom

And another is signed...

Outside linebacker Darion Conner, formerly of the Saints, signed a 1
year deal with the Panthers for $1.5 mil plus incentives. Also, the
Panthers have a right of firsted refusal to offers Conner might get
nexted year.

As of now, Conner is expected to start on the right side of Capers' 3-4
D. Lamar Lathon is projected to start on the left side with Sam Mills and
Frank Stams on the inside. 

The Saints connection comes from Capers and Defensive Coordinator Vic
Fangio who both coached under current Saints head Jim Mora.

TTom

It's getting to be about that time.

As the draft approaches, the word from the Panthers is that they're still 
looking at their options and haven't reached a decision on who to draft 
or who to trade.

Capers and McCormack are both saying that they're giving themselves until 
the draft actually starts to decide what to do.

However, some of the names have changed. Today, they're reporting that 
they now consider Ki-Jana Carter to be the top prospect, followed by 
Southern Cal offensive lineman Tony Boselli who's supposed to be the 
nexted coming of Anthony Munoz.

After that, the names being mentioned are QBs Kerry Collins and Steve 
McNair, Tyrone Wheatley (another new name) and Kevin Carter. These last 2 
are not considered at the top of the draft but rather reflect the 
possibilities of what the Panthers might do if'n they trade down.

McCormack claims that there's a less than 5% chance that the Panthers 
will trade away the top pick but as the draft approaches, they expect 
more teams to make more offers.

Boselli is looking like he might be the man. The concern about Carter is 
that it won't do them any good if'n there's no offensive line. Also, the 
rumors are that the Jaguars really want Boselli which may give him even 
more appeal to the Panthers.

TTom

>Southern Cal offensive lineman Tony Boselli who's supposed to be the 
>nexted coming of Anthony Munoz.

Tony Mandarich revisited ????


If I were an NFL GM I'd always take the talented skill-position player,
regardless of whether I someone to block for him or not.  Barry Sanders
doesn't have a Pro-Bowler in front of him, and look what he does.

    
       There's another piece in today's Globe about how BC defensive
      end/linebacker Mike Mamula wowed the scouts at another tryout.
      The kid has climbed from a projected second rounder to a projected
      5th-10th pick in the draft. He really is that good *or better*.
      Tough as it might be to bite the bullet, give up the number one
      and move down to get him,  Mamula would be worth it. 

>      Tough as it might be to bite the bullet, give up the number one
>      and move down to get him,  Mamula would be worth it. 

This might just be the plan.

TTom

      
    
     re Mamula...
    
       Yea he supposedly blew away McGinists numbers from last year by a
    wide margin and one of combines.  Indy maybe..
    
    Jerry

It looks like in terms of local interest Mamula went from not on the
charts to someone at least being talked about.

He hasn't come to visit and at this point isn't on the list but then
again there's a couple of those who had been talked about who are no
longer being considered. A_article over the weekend pretty much said that
neither Sapp nor Carter (DE from Florida) are being considered.

It looks like it's coming down to Ki-Jana, Air McNair and Collins.
Boselli hasn't at this point been invited to come and show hisself off.

TTom

>It looks like it's coming down to Ki-Jana, Air McNair and Collins.

My guess is they can't go wrong with either Ki-Jana or Collins.
I'll bet Ki-Jana brings fans to the stadium and the TV set immediately.
Collins (like all QBs) may need 2-3 years.

With the QB situation, it's looking like it's a done deal that Frank
Reich will at least be the starter of the firsted game. Collins or McNair
would be given time to develop.

The problems of developing a QB probably can be best demonstrated by what
happened in Tampa Bay with Dilfer and in Washington with Shuler.

In both cases, they were tried at the starter. In both cases it really
didn't work out. In the case of Shuler, he showed that he might have what
it takes to develop. With Dilfer, he ended up on the bench behind a
Ericson and will have to start all over in terms of confidence, etc.

And remember, there's always the option of trading draft picks which
brings a whole bunch of other prospects into the mix.

TTom

    I'd say if there was a LT or Drew B in the draft then use the #1(or 2?)
    otherwise I'd trade down for an extra quality player to #8-15.  Or swap
    for a 2nd round throw in.
    
    Ki-Jana will be wasted in a program that's not ready for him in terms
    of experience in the offensive line.  Dallas is the prototype of this
    kind of strategy in a rebuild though there aren't any Mike Lynns around
    anymore.

>    Ki-Jana will be wasted in a program that's not ready for him in terms

The powers that be have said as such.

I found it real interesting that right after bringing up Boselli, they
then turned around and said that he hadn't been invited for a look-see.

TTom

Kerry Colllins came to town yesterday to talk with Coach Com Capers. He
had a physical supposedly talked the most of the coaches and management.
The Panthers refused comments except to confirm his visit.

So far, the other top prospects mentioned, McNair and Ki-Jana, have also
paid a call. 

On the free agency front, former Fin Muhammed Oliver was also in town.
The Panthers almost have their starting defense signed with the notable
exception of free safety. Oliver was included by Miami in the expansion
draft but was the firsted player pulled back.

TTom

To trade of not to trade, that is the question.

Today's thinking has the nod to keep the #1 pick. And that seems to be
Ki-Jana Carter who made his second trip to Charlotte thised week.

He met with the owners, the president, the general manager, all the
coaches and even went to practice with the 72 Panthers already in camp.
Neither the Panthers nor Carter talked much but the rumor mill is in
overdrive.

The whole issue comes down to how they see the top pick. Will it be the
impact player that everyone is looking for? That favors keeping the top
pick. 

However, another opinion has it that if'n you can find a top flight QB,
go for him because there aint that many around. And that favors keeping
the top pick, but in this case it would be Kerry Collins.

Coincidentally, both Collins and Carter are represented by the same
agent, Leigh Steinberg, who claims that he hasn't talked terms to the
Panthers for either.

Then there's the school of thought of trading down. So far, Washington
(#4 pick), Cincinnati (5), Cleveland (10), and Minnesota (11 and 24) have
inquired about trades all of whom are interested in Carter. Minnesota,
which would be really trading up is talking draft picks and Terry Allen,
a proven talent in his own right.

The Panthers aint talking about which way they will go. President
McCormack put the chances of trading the top pick at only 5% a couple of
weeks ago but he now is talking 10% and with the right offer it could be
100%.

TTom

Here's the summary of the Firsted Annual Panthers Draft.

The consensus that I've heard is that the Panthers got snookered by the 
Bengals with the trade of the #1. Carolina got the Cincinnati firsted and 
seconded round picks in exchange while most have expressed the opinion 
that they shoulda had a 3rd rounder as well.

I wasn't in town for all the wheeling and dealing so I have no clue on 
how some of these picks came about. Basically, the Panthers had 2 picks 
each round except for the 2nd and the 6th which they lost cause they 
"tampered" with Dom Capers. And, they added one from the Bengals in the 
second.

Here's who they took:

Player, position, school, Round/pick

Kerry Collins, QB, Penn St (1/5) 
	Collins is expected to back up Reich and be the QB of the future.
	Poulian likens him to Jim Kelly.

Tyrone Poole, DB, Fort Valley St (1/22)
	Poole was one of those lesser known players who really helped 
	themselves out in the combines. There's a good chance because of 
	who the Panthers have that Poole will play a lot if not start. In 
	the depth charts he's shown as the #1 DB now.

Blake Brockermeyer, OT, Texas  (1/29) 
	Brockermeyer, like Poole, is now at the top of the depth charts
	for Offensive Tackle. The local consensus was that they didn't
	expect him to be around this late.

Shawn King, DE, NE Lousiana (2/36)
	King is projected to start at right end. He's another that 
	surprised the Panthers by being available.

Frank Garcia, C, Washington (4/132)
	Right now, Garcia figures to be the backup at center to former
	Charger, Curtis Whitley. He's also being for special teams as  
	the long snapper, which has become a valued specialty in the NFL.

Mike Senters, DB, Northwestern (5/135)
	Senters is projected as a backup in the secondary and possibly 
	playing some of the nickle sets.

Andrew Peterson, OT, Washington (5/171)
	The Panthers had a lot of concerns about their offensive line.
	Peterson will back up either or both tackles.

Steve Strahan, DT, Baylor (6/188)
	Strahan has been projected at Nose Tackle. Currently he's second 
	on the depth charts behind Greg Kragen who almost retired before
	deciding to come to camp a couple of days after it started. 

Jerry Colquitt, QB, Tennessee (6/191)
	Colquitt started for Tennesse but was hurt early in the firsted 
	game. It will remain to be seen if'n he can play in the NFL.
	At best he might be trade fodder since he's projected behind 
	Reich, Collins and free agent Jack Trudeau.

Chad Cota, DB, Oregon (7/209)
	Cota will get some good looks at Free Safety. The Panthers see 
	him as a_overachiever, hopefully in the mold of Bill Bates.

Michael Reed, DB, Boston College (7/249)
	Mr. Irrelevant, being the lasted pick in the draft. Reed will put
	a lot of pressure on Tim McKyer for minutes in the defensive 
	secondary.

The Pnathers have signed free agent Bubba McDowell, formerly of Houston,
to a 3 year contract.

The two particular areas of concern with the Panthers are the defensive
secondary and the offensive line. It is hoped that McDowell will help out
at safety.

The big question mark with McDowell is that he injured his left knee
lasted year. So far he has had 2 operations on it, the most recent in
January. He's not expected to even practice until July and maybe not even
then. Obviously, that makes him questionable to be ready at the opening
of the season.

The contract was for 3 years, 3.6 mil.

TTom

more signings:

The Panthers signed three undrafted college players.

The most important seems to be Maryland halfback Allen Williams. Williams
was the only player charted by the Panthers that wasn't drafted by
someone. Williams started the lasted 10 games for the Terps.

The other two were Syracuse safety Tony Jones, who led them in tackles
lasted year, and Nebraska linebacker Ed Stuart.

TTom

  I'm surprised Ed Stuart wasn't drafted. He played pretty good for dem 
  Red guys. In fact, I belive he was a nominee for the Dick Butkus award.

	Keith	

Panthers Schedule:

Sep.  3	at	Atlanta		1pm
Sep. 10	at	Buffalo		1pm
Sep. 17	vs	St. Louis	1pm
Sep. 24		open
Oct.  1	vs	Tampa Bay	1pm
Oct.  8	at	Chicago		1pm
Oct. 15	vs	NY Jets		4pm
Oct. 22	vs	New Orleans	1pm
Oct. 29	at	New England	1pm
Nov.  5	at	San Francisco	4pm
Nov. 12	at	St. Louis	1pm
Nov. 19	vs	Arizona		1pm
Nov. 26	at	New Orleans	8pm
Dec.  3	vs	Indianapolis	1pm
Dec. 10	vs	San Francisco	1pm
Dec. 17	vs	Atlanta		1pm
Dec. 24	at	Washington	4pm

And, oh yeah, the Panthers signed Don Beebe to a 2 year deal.

TTom

Carlton Bailey, who's been pursued for quite a while has come into the
fold. The Panthers signed the former Bills linebacker after he was waived
by the Giants.

Bailey coulda been had in the expansion draft but the Panthers didn't
wanna pay the $1+ mil. By signing him now, they could do a whole new
contract for about half that amount.

Bailey is semi-local talent having playing for No Carolina. He's
projected at inside LB.

TTom

Back on the network...

The Panthers have moved in the big leagues: a_all-pro running back with
a_all-pro question mark.

Basically, the Steelers gave Foster to the Panthers. The nominal cost was
a 6th round pick in the 96 draft and a conditional 4th rounder in 97.
This pick requires that Foster exceed all previous efforts.

If'n Foster can stay healthy, he will have solved on of those big
pieces/holes for the Panthers. He'll get his number called about as often
as he can stand it.

There is, of course, a little matter of his salary that pays him around
2.5 mil each year and another 250K per year in pro-rated bonus.

The Steelers, who now have some more money to sign other positions,
signed Erric Pegram at RB. Cowher has made no bones about not liking
Foster since his episode in 93 concerning a_ankle injury. Foster went
outside the team physicians to get a second opinion and subsequently has
surgery against the teams wishes.

TTom

Do the Panthers have anyone decent to block for him.  The running game
is more dependent on the OL than the RB.  (IMO)

re: OL

That remains to be seen. It would be accurate to say that they don't have
a proven one. 

The anchor of the line will have to be ex-49er, Harry Boatswain. Recent
draftee Blake Brockermeyer will probably be given a chance to start. At a
related position, Howard Griffith is projected at FB.

TTom

>The anchor of the line will have to be ex-49er, Harry Boatswain.

That's Harry "turnstile" Boatswain.

Come on, wait 'til they show how bad they are ;=).

Brockermeyer certainly is a question mark in his own right.

I'd be surprised if'n the Panthers don't make some more moves to try to
solve this problem. At this rate, with this line, we'll get to see just
how durable Foster really is.

TTom

Official training camp dates have been announced and they is open to the
public.

The Panthers will be starting up at Winthrop College in beautiful Rock
Hill, Souf Carolina. They start with 2-a-days today.

I'm a gonna try to go see 'em on Monday for the afternoon session. I
might get there over the weekend if'n tanning conditions aren't good.

TTom

Some Panther musings...

   o	I didn't make it to practice. I was gonna go Monday but the Hurricane
season started. From what I read they called it off just as it got 
started cause of tornado warnings. Real men play football whether the 
weather is good or bad ;-).

   o	In a surprise to no one, it looks like Frank Reich is the QB for 
the firsted season. Trudeau will back him up with yet to be signed pick 
Kerry Collins learning as fast as he can. Collins was quoted in the paper 
as saying he had no clue what was going on after one practice and a 
weekend with the playbook.

   o	Speaking of Collins, he and the team have agreed in very general 
terms on his contract. The holdup is that he wants the same escape clause 
as Bledsoe has. Not coincidentally, they have the same agent. The 
Panthers have stated in no uncertain terms that they will not sign any 
contract with any such clause.

   o	Lamar Lathon is running his mouth and is now the locker room 
leader in terms of predicting victories. Earlier Tim McKyer said that 
they would win about half their games. Lathon is saying that it's gonna
be 9 or 10 victories. In all fairness to their bravado, this is not 
a_expansion team like the olden days. With free agent additions, like 
Lathon, this is a veteran team at a lot of positions, especially on 
defense.

   o	Tyrone Poole is the talk of the town. Supposedly, he's one of 
those who's a lot faster when the ball is in play then when you fire and 
gun and look at a stopwatch. He came in rated as very fast, with several 
sub 4.5s. But by all accounts, he's even faster closing to the intended 
pass receiver. He's getting a lot of good tips from the veterans and by 
all accounts all he needs to develop are the techniques used in the 
pros.

   o	Anthony Munoz is in camp working with the very questionable 
offensive line. He's spending a lot of time with draftee Blake 
Brockermeyer, working one-on-one with run-blocking techniques. A-obvious 
mutual respect has developed between the two. Munoz also had some good 
words to say about center Curtis Whitley who rode the Chargers bench 
lasted year and tackle Derrick Graham. Munoz is here at the request of 
offensive line coach Jim McNally who had that position in Cincinnati.

TTom

    
> Speaking of Collins, he and the team have agreed in very general 
> terms on his contract. The holdup is that he wants the same escape clause 
> as Bledsoe has. Not coincidentally, they have the same agent. The 
> Panthers have stated in no uncertain terms that they will not sign any 
> contract with any such clause.
    
    Kerry Collins is no Drew Bledsoe...
    
    
    glenn
    

>    Kerry Collins is no Drew Bledsoe...

I tend to agree although I'll reserve judgement on the merits of this
non-comparisons. In all fairness to Collins, he seems to be more in the
mold of the Bart Starrs than Dan Marino, which Bledsoe more resembles
with his are strength, etc. I was going to say Fran Tarkenton, which
mighta ratholed the whole thang.

I'll be happy if'n he's only as good as Starr.

But in any case, even if'n he was the nexted coming of Joe Montana, the
Richardson have told every agent that they will not sign contracts with
escape clauses.

TTom

>I'll be happy if'n he's only as good as Starr.

I should say so....

    The inference is that Tarkenton > Starr.  When I put Grogan > Bradshaw
    I got chuckled out of here by Childs and Waugamain etal with a barrage
    of groaner like "How many championships did Grogan win with Pats(or
    even playoff wins)".
    
    I'd say Starr's nfl rings put him ahead of Tarkenton

>    I'd say Starr's nfl rings put him ahead of Tarkenton

Way ahead.  How many championships did Starr win ?  Ridiculous, this apparent
disrespect for Bart Starr.  He was the ultimate field general.

I'll second that.

I know of no QB in his era that could touch Starr.  His dedication,
concentration and humility were qualities that more athletes should emulate,
in my not-so humble opinion.

He also had a great coach to work with.  8^)


'Saw

The reference to Tarkenton was a dig.

Seldom had anyone done less with more. Tarkenton is the personificatioin
of the pursuit of individual statistics over team achievements. I think
the most fitting "tribute" to Tarkenton was the refusal to put him into
the Hall of Fame his firsted year of eligibility despite the fack that he
owned practically every record there was for QBs. And to throw salt into
the wound, Joe Namath got in, his firsted year, that same year Fran was
overlooked.

Of course, Bart Starr was one of the greats by any standard. Football is
a team event and the teams led by Starr achieved tremendous sussess. Same
goes for Bradshaw.

I have no way of knowing if'n Collins has this in him. Right now, this
Panthers fan is coming from hope.

TTom

    A 'course, our former resident Packer authority, Bob McCullough, told 
    us that Bart Starr was somewhat overrated, a product of Da System.  He 
    didn't have to be dominant, like Johnny U...
    
    glenn
     

Wail there's a lot to be said for who you get to play with. There's been
a lot QBs who mighta been stars if'n they had lucked out and got to play
with a good team.

Starr obviously had some stars with him. But, he was the undisputed
leader of the offense and stars just don't go and hand that honor to you.
You have to earn it.

TTom

    The Colts did pretty good with journeyman Morrall in there when he was
    hurt and talent wise pretty much a match or more for pack.  Tark pretty
    much moved teams that were unmovable by anyone else, especially 60s
    Giants.
    
    Aikman would be the 90s comparison with Starr.

    News report said that ol Barry Foster is up to his old tricks lasted
    week.
    
    Seems the Panthers held a training campo/mini camp and Foster refused
    to talk to reporters and complained of sore legs and sat out most of
    the camp.
    
    Coaches said he was in lousy shape when he hit camp.
    
    JaKe
    

 Is Barry Foster going to become your new Barry Bonds????????

 ;^)

    Nah.  I liked Foster.  He was quiet, when it came to media attention,
    not an a__hole like Bonds.  Just thought it funny that his "new
    beginning" he proclaimed of hisself when he was dealt to the Panthers
    lasted a complete and whole 9 days.
    
    JaKe
    

Putting attitude aside, Foster is no Bonds on several counts.

Foster came to mini-camp in attrocious shape. He's had to sit out several
sessions because he was just plain too tired to practice. So far, he's
won over no teammates with this routine.

Capers isn't making too much of it cause Foster is one the main parts of
his game plan. The idea is to play hard D to keep the scoring down and
play ball control on offensive to keep the ball away from the other guys.
If'n Foster can put up 100 yards a game, he will have done his job so
you'd have to say the jury is out.

But let him stink up the place in a couple of games and you'll start
hearing and reading more about his bumdom.

TTom

More moving into the big times....

Kerry Collins has officially become the firsted ever Panther
draftee/holdout. At the urging of his agent, Leigh Steinberg, Collins is
in California and not in Panthers training camp. Collins is supposed to
be in Spartanburg, SC, tonight but won't be there.

Steinberg wants a contract like the one he got for Drew Bledsoe with
a_out clause. Mike McCormack has said NFW.

Expected to join him in holding out are the two other firsted round
picks, Blake Brockermeyer the offensive lineman from Texas and Tryone
Poole the defensive back from Fort Valley St.

Second rounder Shawn King, a defensive end, is expected to sign today.
All the other draftees have signed and are also expected in camp.

One of the issues holding up the firsted rounders is that most everyone
in the league is waiting on Ki-Jana Carter to sign with the Bengals.
Jacksonville signed all their picks including the number 2 overall pick.
[mumble mumble] a_offensive lineman from Southern Cal.

By Monday we'll know if'n either side blinks.

TTom

Just when the contoversy seemed to be brewing, the whole thang is over.

All of 'em signed, including Kerry Collins who got a_NFL record 7 mil
signing bonus. The sticking point for Collins was his agent wanted the
Drew Bledsoe clause in the contract after 3 years in which Bledsoe could
and did exercise his right to become a free agent. New England had to
cough up a bundle to keep him. Well in the Panthers deal, Collins will
get a flat sum of 6 mil if'n the Panthers elect to keep him. This option
will also add a year to the contract making it a 7 year deal.

Collins, who has already bought a home here, immediately announced the
a foundation which he has given 1 million to assist various local charity
efforts. Collins also wrote a check to Penn St repaying them for his
scholarship. The annual rate for Collins is in the 3-4 mil range,
including the bonus[es].

Now it too dang hot to practice ...

TTom

Camp's underway, all the draftees are signed and in camp, former Bills
are fighting and Barry Foster is keeping his mouth shut.

It's been about 105 in Spartanburg each day so the usual number of
participants are passing out and recycling their lunch. What they've
tried to do is to have one practice very early and one as late as
possible to try to miss the midday char.

In a routine pass over the center, former Bills linebacker and former Tar
Heel, Carlton Bailey crushed former Bills wide out, Don Beebe who coughed
up the ball and what looked like his spleen ;-). when Beebe was revived,
he tried to act angry.

And in one of the top stories, there is no top story about Barry Foster.
He hasn't spoken to the media wiht the blessing of the Panthers powers
that be. Instead, he's quietly doing everything that's being asked of him
during the training sessions. He's said to be looking in excellent shape,
running and cutting with what GM Bill Poulian called "verve". I'm not
sure if'n that's a_appropriate complement and not one I'd use within
Foster's hearing range. Nor would I call him dainty but what the hey, I
aint the GM.

TTom

Oh yeah, one more thing.

The Panthers have met with recently waived lineman Steve Emtman. The
former Colt met with Capers and the rest of 'em yesterday as he started
his whirlwind tour to sell hisself to the rest of the league. Today's
he's in Miami.

The Panthers gave him a physical but won't release the results. Emtman
has spent most of his NFL career on the IR with a variety of leg and knee
injuries including torn ligament in both knees and a torn platella
tendon.

The Colts cut him to try to save some money against the cap.

TTom

Wail, went to the firsted ever home Panthers game, albeit a preseason 
affair.

The day started with a 4 hour traffic jam as someone forgot to mention to 
the road crews that 60K people would be on the one and only interstate to 
Clemson.

By the time we got there, it was a sultry 95/95 (heat/humidity).

Then we find out that Miller has put the fix in and the onliest kinda 
beer was theirs. I tried one of the ice beers and I tried a Red Dog and 
both made me wanna hurl.

But other than that, the game itself, the fans and whole production went 
real well.

Of course, the Donks helped out by tanking it as they lost 19-10. Elway 
got 'em out to a quick 7-zip lead. That was followed by a TD pass from 
Reich and gradually the Panthers scored and held on to win.

Of course, one cannot underestimate how ridiculous it is to have "home 
games" 150 miles away. It aint exactly like the NY Jets who play across 
the river in Jersey. Rock Hill would be fine :*).

Certainly, one collector item was saved. By winning the Panthers are now 
firsted in their division. It's not likelly to happen again for a while.

TTom

    TTom,
    
    Is 85 South still all torn up around Spartanburg and Greenville? 
    Bummer.
    
    Drink your beer now, as I believe the good folks of Clemson voted
    against liquor sales on Sunday.  I think that applies to the stadium as
    well.
    
    Looks like the opening game of the season (Falcons - Panthers) may be a
    good one.  Probably be rootin' for the Panthers cause of Reich, and the
    fact that the owners of the Falcons (aka the Clampetts) suck.
    
    UMDan 

Yeah, I-85 is all tore up.

Basically, the entir road is underconstruction from about Clemson until
north of Charlotte.

Yeah, no beer on Sunday. It's apparent that they have planned to make
this as miserable as possible.

Yeah, the Falcon game should be a good'n. Here's hoping the Panthers make
a better showing that the Fins *&).

TTom

    If that means they don't sell it won't it result in more consumed
    outside before and after not to speak of what everyone brings in.
    
    Of course if they start searching that means people bring the liquor in
    - I knew someone who had it in a cigar casing(s).  Not to speak of baby
    diapers etc.
    
    I just don't think those ideas ever accomplish any serious objectives
    but it certainly enables those who don't like sports to send their
    message.

The duel at QB has been settled.

Dom Capers has named Frank Reich the starter, giving him the nod over
Jack Trudeau. Basically their numbers were very similar.

Capers said the difference was that Reich was in when the Panthers scored
their only 2 TDs.

TTom

they had that no beer thingy at the CARDS games for a while.  It took a few 
years, but cooler heads finally prevailed.  

TTom, quit whining about the weather.  We just got done with 17 straight days 
of 111+.  Goooooood beer drinkin weather.  Specially when your sitting out on 
your back porch around 10:30 and it's cooled down all the way to 103.

boC

>TTom, quit whining about the weather.  We just got done with 17 straight days 
>of 111+.  Goooooood beer drinkin weather.  Specially when your sitting out on 
>your back porch around 10:30 and it's cooled down all the way to 103.

Yeah, but it's a DRY kind of heat.  8^)

You can tell the conditions are good when you can drink a 12 pack and not
pee once.

Yeah, the dry heat, which is aint. 

But what I wanna know is what brews is doing home at 10:30 in the morning
and drinking beer. He's got a better schedule'n mine:*)

TTom

Yeah man, sit back, swill some beer in the morning sun and watch them
dollars flow into good ol' Digital Equipment Corporation.

Them salesguys got it made, what with the new and improved compensation
programs and all that wonnerful stuff type thangs.

TTom

Yeah, and all them perks like DEC100, excellence awards in Bali, etc.

TTom

Yea, and 25% quota increases over last year.  We got it so good, everyone is 
bailing.

>
>Yea, and 25% quota increases over last year.  We got it so good, everyone is 
>bailing.
>

Well, I don't know about good (I know you were being sarcastic) but you are
right that everyone is bailing.


When you have VPs talking about motivating the troops by sending them to
training, you've got some folks who are horrendously out of touch.

Unless someone is independently wealthy, and working for kicks, you start with
the wallet and work from there....


I keep hearing about this company undergoing a salary and compensation review
to bring our positions more in line with the rest of the industry.  After
hearing that for a while now I'm convinced it is just more of what management
in this place is so good for -- lip service.


'Saw

Hey it's alright to rag on Brews about his beer drinking habits but let's
keep the bellyaching about Digital over in JUNK.

Meanwhile, boot camp has ended for the Panthers. The operative phrase
seems to be 'free at last, good gawd almight, free at last'.

Actually, you couldn't tell if'n it was boot camp they were glad or just
happy to be leaving Spartanburg, SC.

Tomorrow the Western Division NFC leader travels to lasted year's
division, conference and league winners, the 49ers. So far San Fran has
looked a little ragged but since the Panthers beat the Donks and the
Donks beat the the 9ers, it should be a cakewalk!@)

TTom 

>Hey it's alright to rag on Brews about his beer drinking habits but let's
>keep the bellyaching about Digital over in JUNK.

Oh, I thought that's where we were.  I wasn't keeping track of the numbers
laddie....

I thought that raggin' on Brews was always the JN.....


'saw

Da Turk has struck and a couple of surprises

The biggest surprise was the waiving of rookie QB Jerry Colquitt. He had
been penciled in as the third QB, with Jack Trudeau being the odd man
out. But the Panthers are gambling that no one wants Colquitt who has
barely played. If'n he clears waivers, the team says it would like to
re-sign him to the taxi squad leaving at QB, in order, Frank Reich,
rookie Kerry Collins and Trudeau.

The other player that caused some notice was waiving Kurt Haws. Haws had
been picked in the expansion draft and considered to be giving Pete
Metzelaars a battle for starting TE. However the Panthers decided to give
him the boot and keep, at least for now, backups Lawyer Tillman and Matt
Campbell. There's a nice story going around that Campbell was so sure it
was going to be him that he went back to Southern Cal and enrolled in
classes this semester to complete his degree in civil engineering.

Meanwhile, the Panthers got Pat Terrell a safety waived by the Jets.
That meant that they had to cut Fred Foggie who started the 49ers game
and was so sure he'd make the team that he started building a new house
here.

On Sunday, the Panthers will cut another 9 players, getting to the 56
allowed for them and Jville.

TTom

Forgot a guy.

Also the Panthers claimed WR Ray Ethridge, formerly of Cleveland, from
waivers.

The Panthers and the Browns scrimmaged together a couple of weeks ago and
Ethridge was noticed by the staff for his speed, which the Panthers are
woefully lacking on offense in general and at the wide out in
particular.

TTom

>I thought that raggin' on Brews was always the JN.....



Wrong acronym.  Should be SOP

Foster has been released.

>Foster has been released.

I'm outta town so I aint heard.

More details, please.

Thanks, if'n this is really true.

TTom

As of 12:30 pm, ESPNet is reporting him as gone.

daryll

Wail, it looks like the Panthers hava a chance of going through the
nexted weekend without losing. By the grace of the powers that be that
fix the NFL schedule, they get the bye.

It couldn't have come at a better time.

But firsted of all, the game yesterday:

We left Charlotte at 7:30 and the trek to the firsted ever home game took
3 hours, due mostly to the lack of traffic. Good times were had by all
except possibly the designated driver, Saw's good buddy and mine,
ex-DECcie Frank McHugh. Did the big time tailgating with high hopes that
we could make it on some TV pre-game show. Didn't make it on the tube but
we were undaunted in our efforts to achieve a_appropriate atmosphere.

Nexted, we made the big mistake of actually going into the game. Marilyn
or whoever is out there making the big splash thised week was blowed out
by sunshine, so at game time, the temperature hotter'n hail. People were
passing out, they had emergency centers for water, the whole nine yard.
Not to mention that fack that Panthers stunk up the place, losing 10-31
on 7 Turnovers. I left at half and returned to watching other games on a
TV the guy in the van beside us brought. 

On the radio were other games, including the Atlanta-New Orleans slug
fest and, of course, NASCAR. 

And there was shade since we parked next to a wooded area precluding the
need to walk all the way to the other side of the parking lot for relief.

Then we just stayed down and watched and listened to more games and
NASCAR and headed back to Charlotte about 5:30. I walked back into the
house at 8:30. A cool 13 hours to watch a home game.

In Clemson, to boot.

TTom

    At least they voted to allow beer sales in the stadium, though.
    
    What the hell is the problem with Reich?
    
    UMDan
    
    (Too bad about the 'Heels and Mountaineers!) 

Yeah, it a rather controversial ruling, some judge stepped in and granted
a restraining order from the local vote and ordinance to not sell beer.
No one is quite sure how this came about since the school and the town
both said they didn't want no steenkin beer. Wail, steenkin beer is what
they got, namely, a bunch of luke warm Miller products.

Riech is the principal stinker in the offense. He hesitates afore he
throws, advertises his target and tosses it without regard to the
coverage. When he's not screwing up by passing, he's usually on his back
side. He's gotta be way up there on the leader board for how many times
he's been sacked. And a lot of these are simply his fault because he's so
indecisive and so slow. But often some of his best plays are being sacked
as opposed to tossing interceptions.

But make no mistake, there's plenty of blame to go all around on the
offense. What it looks like is that the offense has been set and we don't
have the horses to make it go. So what you got here is a failure to adapt
and actually assess the dearth of talent and plan the plays accordingly.

>    (Too bad about the 'Heels and Mountaineers!) 

Well, nobody this side of Mike Heiser accuses me of being a fan o' the
Heels. In fack, I take no small comfort in seeing them choke. Mack Brown
with his excuses of renown came to town right afore the season and he was
already whining and crying doing his best to downplay expectations.
There's no way they shoulda been in any Top 25.

As for them 'Eers, I'm gonna end up seeing them 4 times thised year. I
went up there on the 9th to see a poor effort against Temple. I'm going
to Greenville nexted weekend (9/30) to see 'em play the Pirates of East
Carolina. Then near the last of October and the first of November, I'm
gonna see Rutgers and Va Tech back up in Morganhole. Hopefully, I can
qualify as a fan.

TTom

Wow, my main main Frank had to drive 6 hours?  I hope you guys make someone
else drive nexted time so Frank can have some beers....


You guys are to be congratulated on the tail-gating.  I hope you have some
sausages -- it ain't a tailgate without sausages.  And also, I'll be if'n you
guys are really nice, Mike Childs might FedEx you down some of his MOST
EXCELLENT gumbo.

Mike Childs, for those in here who don't know, is the Vince Lombardi of
gumbo makers....In the Saw's Humble Opinion of course....


Tell Frank I said hey....


'saw

Yeah,

We're gonna rotate who has to drive. My turn is tentatively slated fro
the Nov 19 game vs the Cards. I've proposed renting a Winnebago, driving
down the night afore and staying down there Sunday, too. I figger, we
park it in somebody's front lawn for 10 or 15 bucks for the weekend and
walk instead of drive.

Whilst we dint have no sausage, a_oversight that shant be duplicated, we
did do some awesome wings and ribs. Gumbo seems a bit much for our
limited brain cell capacities, given the circumstances. We did manage to
look like the Okies at the Dust Bowl. 6 guys and about 12 coolers,
prepared for everything, including rain which was forecasted. 

Passing on the hey,...

TTom

>
>Whilst we dint have no sausage, a_oversight that shant be duplicated, we
>did do some awesome wings and ribs. Gumbo seems a bit much for our
>limited brain cell capacities, given the circumstances. We did manage to
>look like the Okies at the Dust Bowl. 6 guys and about 12 coolers,
>prepared for everything, including rain which was forecasted. 
>

Wings and ribs (especially ribs) is acceptable in the abscense of sausage.

I remember a tailgate at the Yale-UCONN game one year we did steak and
lobster -- now there was a feast!



>Passing on the hey,...

Cool.  Thankee much....


'Saw

As expected, the Panthers had one of their better outings, holding Bye to
a scoreless tie.

In the QB race, it looks like it may be Kerry Collins who will start
nexted week against Tampa Bay.

One of the bigger news items over the weekend was Barry Foster. In
a_interview on ESPN, Foster claimed that the Panthers are blackballing
him, keeping Foster in the ranks o' the unemployed.

Supposedly (according to his agent, Jordan Woy), the Panthers are
actively contacting every team in the league telling them that Foster is
a lazy bum who won't play when he doesn't want to.

Firsted of all, where's the motivation for the Panthers. They waived him
which they wouldn't've done if'n they thought he was worth anything. The
fack that they didn't pick him right back up for less should tell ya
something.

Then there's the issue of him being a bum which is common knowledge. 

As it stands right now, Foster claims he's ready, willing and able to
play, even for league minimum but no one's calling cause the Panthers are
bad mouthing him.

No comment from the Panthers except to reiterate the fack that they
think he's a lazy bum who won't play when he doesn't want to.

TTom

PK, it looks like Kerry Collings gets the starting nod at QB. Everyone
seems to have confirmed it. Obviously, the scary thought is what's plan B
if'n this doesn't work out. Or would it be Plan C or D?

Meanwhile, lost in the shuffle to blame the offensive malaise on the QB,
the running back situation is at least that bad.

Here's a run down on who's been in the backfield and their current
status.

Tony Smith	Out for year, knee injury
Dewell Brewer	Out for year, knee injury
Barry Foster	Waived, last seen whining on ESPN
Derrick Lassic	Waived as part of injury settlement
Randy Baldwin	Started, din't get it done, a scrub
Derrick Moore	Came in, looked good fer awhile, held by Rams to 11 yards
Vince Workman	Today's savior, stay tuned

TTom

Been quiet in here fer awhile ;-)...

The Panthers actually won a game yesterday but it might be a case of the 
dreaded asterisk: it was against the Jets which may not be able to crack 
the Top 10 of College much less compete in the NFL.

This Jets team is so bad, I kept looking around for Joe Walton.

Fear not, Kotite was there. And the QB was Bubby Brister, who went a 
stellar 17 fer 41 and 140 some yards.

The antics included Rookie QB Kerry Collins getting sacked for a safety;
followed by a 4 play drive by the Jets for minus 6 yards that produced a 
FG; a_interception of Collins for a TD; Brister shovel passed to LB Sam 
Mills for a TD; etc., etc., you get the drift.

But who cares. A win is a win. Bring on New Orleans.

TTom

Another firsted!

Firsted, the Panthers win, albeit agin the Jets. Now, Sam Mills is the
firsted ever Painter to be named Defensive Player o' the Week.

While recognizing that this is not exactly the same achievement as say
winning the Super Bowl, it's good to see something good happen to the
team.

Thised week, it'll be Dom Capers versus his ol' boss Jim Mora. Capers
joined Mora in the USFL then went with him to New Orleans when that
league folded.

Between the coaches and players, there's a lot of connections to N.O.
Both the offensive (Joe Pendry) and defensive coordinators (Vic Fangio)
coached under Mora. Players who played under Mora include Mills, fellow
LB Daion Conner, safety Brett Maxie and punter Tommy Barnhardt.

FWIW, Barnhardt is well on his way to breaking the NFL record for punts
in a season.

TTom

    
    Barnhardt breaking the punt record is no dubious honor. Some really bad
    offense helps the punter get this record.

Actually, there's a real nice side to all this.

Afore the season started, Barnhardt got together with one of the
children's charities and he donates money for every punt and doubles up
if'n the punt ends up inside the 20. Some other people learned of this
and have jumped on the bandwagon. At the pace he's kicking, they'll end
up donating something like 50 grand.

BTW, Barnhardt is local talent, coming from China Grove just up I-85 from
Charlotte.

TTom

It just goes to show you gotta take the good with the bad.

See Topic 55 for the bad news.

The good news is 4 wins and hopefully counting. A lot of fans around
here, including myself, were predicting and almost expecting the season
to be like this in terms of the record. Who beat whom is certainly skewed
cause nobody this side of RCASO woulda told you that the Painters would
beat the Niners.

The wins have come about just like you want to see it, too. The free
agent veterans provided a start with a solid defense. Sam Mills has
looked particularly good as had rookie Tyrone Poole who caused fumbles
by both Rice and Taylor lasted Sunday. 

On offense, the leading candidate for ROY, Kerry Collins, has certainly
grown up and taken his place as a starting NFL QB. The guy he looks most
like is Troy Aikman. Collins is big kid and stands tall in the pocket, at
least whatever pocket he has a chance to stand in. The offensive line
remains the real weak link with the team.

The bad news is that Derrick Moore is probably out for the season. He
strained his MCL and is listed as missing 4-6 weeks. Considering it's
only 7 left, he might just sit out til 96. Luckily it aint blowed.

TTom

>The bad news is that Derrick Moore is probably out for the season. He
>strained his MCL and is listed as missing 4-6 weeks. Considering it's
>only 7 left, he might just sit out til 96. Luckily it aint blowed.

 A win this week against an overrated St.Louis team puts the Panthers at 5-5,
 and a legitimate playoff contender.  Get Derrick Moore back for those final 2-3
 games if they've still got a shot at that point.

St. Louis is at a cross roads. They started out like gang busters,
beating up on the Painters at Clemson. Then they woke up and remembered
that they're the Rams and haven't fared too well lately. The problem is
that usually in the NFL trends don't continue so they're about due to
win and Carolina is about due to lose.

Then Arizona comes to town, which is a chance for another win.

Then there's the finish at the Skins on Christmas eve which is another
chance.

In between the go to the Saints, host the Colts, Niners and Falcons
(maybe this could be a win?).

Certainly, it looks like 7-9 is within their grasps. Making the playoffs
seems like fantasy but of course who'd've thunk they would luck out and
beat the Niners?

TTom

	If they beat the Rams, Cards, Saints, Falcons, and Skins, they
	get 9 wins and probably a playoff spot.

    
    I have a question for the Carolina folks.  Are there Panthers of some
    nature in Carolina? Like I know the only Jaguar's in Jacksonville have
    four wheels and are built across the pond. But do they have any big
    cats running around out in the great smokies?

Who cares?  Last time I went to Dallas there were no real cowboys left
either... :-) :-) :-)

    
    The Cowboys are over in Ft. Worth hanging around the old stoackyards
    at BillyBob's, the world biggest honky-tonk.

	Billy Bobs is one happenin' joint!



	billl

ttom,

My apologies re: Carolina's predicted success.  You were right.

    At least they covered the over on the total season wins (for
    entertainment purposes only, of course!)

    UMDan

>ttom,
>
>My apologies re: Carolina's predicted success.  You were right.

Thanks. Not really necessary cause (a) 7-9 aint happened yet and (2) I
was guessing with my heart having got caught up in the whole preseason
success thang, dontcha know.

As for Panthers, there used to be panthers around here before the hunting
crowd and yankees descended on our peacefule environs ;-). However, they
looked just like the Florida Panthers panthers. They weren't black like
the team logo is. They were brown with spots and have been extinct for
quite some time.

The irony of the name is that the Richardsons wanted a unique kinda name
so they chose the same name as a Hockey team at the same time another
team was choosing another cat name. Real original, there, Jerry.

TTom

Wail, so much for that winning streak. And so much for Kerry Collins for
ROY bandwagon, too. 

Kerry and the Painters took whatcha might call a step back in their 
progress, reverting to their former ways when they were losing games like 
the firsted one against the Rams. 

Collins hisself gave the ball to the Rams on 6, count 'em 6, different 
occasions, sprinkling a brilliant mix of 4 interceptions to blend with 
his two fumbles, including one picked up and run in for a TD by former
Tar Heel Torin Dorn.

And he wasn't alone. Everyone on offense this side of wide out Willie 
Green played a part. the RBs who never got it going; the offensive line 
that gave up 3 sacks and constant pressure; the defensive backs who 
re-joined the ranks of the many teams that can't cover Isaac Bruce; even 
PK John Kasay missed a FG to make sure he was a part of the fun.

Nexted up is the Arizona Cards who are a_early favorite to win at 
Clemson.

TTom

Ok, so it's Buddy Ryan's turn to come to death valley.

Already, when the Cards take the field, it'll represent a milestone. This
is the firsted time in their brief history that the Painters will be
playing a team with a worsted record. Arizona is at 3-7 while Carolina is
4-6.

Buddy is blustering about how he taught Capers everything Dom knows. His
story goes that he found out that Capers was watching a lot of game film
of the Houston games while Buddy was there. Ipso facto, ipse dixit,
Capers was studying and learning Buddy's D. Not so, says Dom. He was
actually watching the Oiler's offense.

So it aint quite a Buddy Bounty but when you're a_expansion team you got
take whatever rivalry you can get.

On the local radio, they had a_interview with Greg Davis the Cards place
kicker who graduated from The Citadel and hosts a football camp at
Furman. Davis said that Buddy has reminded the team that if'n the Cards
play poorly like they have that half of 'em will be gone nexted year just
like half of 'em were gone after lasted year. Davis claimed that there's
over 20 guys on the current roster who weren't there lasted year.

About the hottest Carolina player lately is wideout Willie Green who's
really stepping up for the offense.

TTom

I don't think it's taken as a threat. More of a reality of playing for a
losing team.

>    Tom, why don't you keep Butty there and send us the Panthers.

How 'bout the Suns and Cards for da Bugs and Painters? You can keep them
Diamondbacks, though. We don't need no steenkin MLB. We gots NASCAR!

TTom

In a week of firsteds - better record than the other guy, favored, etc - 
add another one: firsted time the Painters beat the dog stuffings outta 
the other guy.

Can you say less than 100 yards total offense? How 'bout 96 which is what 
the Cards got.

Can you say 0 points by the offense? How 'bout 27-7 with the 7 coming 
from a blocked FG in the firsted half.

Can you say 6 sacks? How 'bout 3 in a row.

Surprisingly, Buddy has been fairly quiet about it all. His players 
looked like the beaten team that the Cards were. 

Now another firsted: firsted expansion team to win 5 games.

Now, there's some local talk about playoffs which aint gonna happen but 
what is possible is for Sam Mills to make the pro bowl. He's the leader 
of the defense and it's obvious that this is the part of the team that is 
making it happen. Kerry Collins is developing real fast but the offense, 
especially the offensive line, is not going to be able to compete day in 
and day out. But the D has looked good most of the time. Even when the 
Painters got beat bad a couple of times, it was mostly due to the offense 
continuously giving the other team the ball. Perfect examples are the 2 
Rams' games where Carolina handed 'em the ball 13 times.

Nexted up is the Saints which the Painters have already beat. This one'll 
be on national TV, ESPN Sunday night. Tune in and see for yourself that 
this D is fer real.

TTom

So the Niners are coming to town - Clemson, that is - and for the
firsted time ever there's a sell/sale out which means the metropolis of
Charlotte will be permitted to actually view their home team at a home
game.

The way it figgers, Steve Young ain't exactly played all that great since
he's come back. He's about due. But what if'n the Painters can apply the
pressure they did against the Colts lasted week?

Then of course, Carolina may get caught looking ahead to the playoffs
;-).

There is actually a non zero chance that this could occur. Say they lose
to San Fran, the whoop the Falcons, which aint exactly playing good,
neither, too, and then Christmas eve go up to RFK and play the Skins
which most teams thised side of Dallas have been able to handle.

This fantasy leads to a_8-8. With a little help from some teams, a_upset
here, a choke job there and who knows.

TTom

    This is 1 team that would definatly need to run the table to make
    the playoffs (I for one would love it :-), especially the part about
    beating San Fran).  
    
    In -1's example Carolina would finish at 8-8, an 8-8 team will more
    then likely make the playoffs the problem is Carolina would have a
    5-7 record in the NFC, there are 9 teams in the NFC today with 5 or
    more wins vs NFC teams (All with 7 or more wins).  Its actually
    intresting as if they somehow did manage to beat the 9ers they may
    have a HUGE mental edge over the Falcons (They'll beat Washington, I
    don't care how many times theyve beat dallas, they stink).
    
    Good luck Panther fans, you have a much better shot then the pats.

They coulda beat them Falcons the firsted time they played 'em.

The Painters scored with about no time remaining. They were gonna go fer
2 but a lineman moved. They settled for 1, forced OT and lost it
outright.

Since then, Atlanta went on a bit of a spurt but have lately lost a bit
of the edge. It all sorta started a couple of weeks back when June Jones
and Jeff George had their spat, followed by the public airing of some
dirty linen inside the team.

You're right about what if'n it's 8-8. Like I said, they'll need some
help....

TTom

    Hey Haas; That Carolina shirt that you gave me a couple o' years ago
    lost all the stitching. 
    
    Jeff

    niners miss "Bar None"'s blocking which should play into Carolina's
    hands. I expect a close one........
    
    mike

>    Hey Haas; That Carolina shirt that you gave me a couple o' years ago
>    lost all the stitching. 

Come to Clemson, you can redeem it for a ticket to the lasted Painters
home game against Atlanta. I'll be at or near the third Trooper from the
end of the second row of the fourth parking lot across from gate 24.

>    niners miss "Bar None"'s blocking which should play into Carolina's
>    hands. I expect a close one........

Like Riggen's stitching, this prediction came unraveled as well. 

Actually what happened was the Niners and especially Steve Young got
their offense going and whooped 'em good. After the interception of
Collins in the end zone, followed by a long TD drive, there wasn't much
suspense about who'd win this one.

TTom

Going to the nexted level...

Add getting jobbed to the many firsteds for the Painters.

Sam Mills didn't get named to the Pro Bowl. He's a minor victim to how
they do it, electing the team as if everyone places a 4-3. So picking a
middle linebacker is a little more difficult. No offense to the guys that
made it ahead of Mills - Jessie Tuggle from Atlanta and Ken Norton from
San Fran - but Sam more than holds his own with either on any terms.

He's the QB for the defense, making all the calls and formations. He has
4 interceptions, 5 forced fumbles, 4 fumble recoveries and 4 sacks,
better'n any one else at his position.

Sam is the second alternate so maybe he might get a chance. Brett Maxie
is the third alternate at Safety.

TTom

I'm not sure I'd take Mills over Tuggle.  Tuggle seems to hit anything that
moves...

I aint saying that either. All I'm saying is that they picked a grand
total of 3 inside linebackers, the same as at QB while in fack many teams
play the 3-4 which has 2 of 'em they own selves.

Mills as the 4th would be a natural.

There were a couple of notables in their absence. Curtis Martin was the
onliest rookie on either squad, which means that Terrell Davis got
jobbed.

Neon Deion din't make it. This is in keeping with the general slide back
to the pack that the Boys are making. Leon Lett and his drug suspension
musta turned off the voters too as he didn't make it.

with the wealth of talent at WR for the NFC there had to be a couple of
gooduns missing the team. Isaac Bruce, Brett Perriman and Robert Brooks
all missed out even though each has caught over 1000 yards thised year.
Eric Metcalf didn't make it either even though he's likely to end the
season at 100+ cathces and 1000+ yards.

Somehow Pat Swilling and his 13 sacks didn't make it. 

TTom

Charlotte 21, Atlanta 17. Ho hum, another win ;-) 

If'n you've been watching the Painters, you'd've recognized the game
as kinda a replay against the Colts: you give up the ball and double
digit points in the firsted quarter; the defense hangs tough; the
offense starts to warm up; the defense hangs tough; the offense
finally scores enough to go ahead; the defense hangs tough; home sweet
home. 

And didn't someone say something about Sam Mills gettin jobbed in the
Pro Bowl selection? Wail, ol' Sam showed 'em again. He forced a
fumble, intercepted a pass, had 8 tackles, led the defense, etc., etc.

And he had plenty of help. DB Pat Terrell interecepted a Jeff George 
pass in the end zone with about a minute left.

So, the firsted home season comes to a conclusion with a 5-3 record. 
Nexted year, they come home to Charlotte.

And that leaves Christmas Eve at RFK against a Redskins team that is 
looked plenty competitive in beating the Rams.

TTom 

    Good job by your team, TTom.  They appear to be playing some of the
    most inspired football of all of the teams.  
    
    The Falcons on the other hand just plain suck.  Close losses to the
    Cardinals and Fins, and the uncanny ability to not make the big play
    have doomed this franchise all year.  At least the Clampets (in reality
    the Smiths) can say they made money, have a mediocre team, and fans
    haven't stopped coming (yet).  Let's see, Christmas Eve, the Falcons
    just about out of the playoffs and the Niners coming to town. 
    Predicted attendance - 35K.  At least it's not gonna be on the tube.
    
    UMDan

Thanks, UMDan.

The irony of this game and the rest of the season is that the Falcons did
not play that bad. In fack, I'd venture a guess that they'd've beat a lot
of teams yesterday. The loss is really a tribute to the Painter D. 

The Falcons, mostly cause of leftover attitudes about Glanville and
former players like Rison, get little or no respect around the league.
Throw in the fack that they play in the same division as the Niners. And
the final coupe da grass, the run 'n gun, and you got the basis for never
being picked to win much.

But reality is that they won 8 games and, except for a couple lasted
minute losses to the Fins and Painters, they kept a lot of pressure on
the Niners in the division.

Problems seem to exist down in the Big A. George is rumored to be about
anywhere nexted year but in Atlanta. Bobby Hebert aint gonna win ya
nothing.

But back in the Peaceful Kingdom, everyone is excited just to be able to
have the Charlotte games actually in Charlotte.

TTom

Mike,

They're at Washington nexted week.

Yeah, it'd be nice to see 8-8 but I aint gonna complain about 7-9,
neither, also, yet.

The good news is that they've clearly set a new standard, at least in
the NFL, for expansion teams. And they did it the way the league
preaches, namely, defense. Contrast them to the Jaguars, who started out
better but then parked. Word I'm hearing is that a lot of the players in
Jacksonville are less than pleased with the boot camp style down there,
especially since it didn't yield the intended results.

The bad news is that nexted year the onliest way they can improve is make
the playoff.

TTom

    Caroline will likely finish 8-8 but jacksonville will likely
    get the #1 (or #2 not sure who wins/losese the tie break between
    them and the jets).
    
    I know they (JAC) need alot of work but the #1 pick can sometimes
    make a world of difference....
    
    								Mab

Right now, the Jaguars gets the nod over the Jets.

NY beat Jville week 3, 27-10.

As for the 8-8 part, here's hoping that the Shuler-Frerotte controversy
continues. Winning at RFK shore would be a real nice Christmas present.

TTom

It aint the Pro Bowl but ....

John Madden selected 2 Painters for his All-Madden team.

Sam Mills who shoulda been on the Pro Bowl roster was chosen at
linebacker.

Tyrone Poole was chosen as a "newcomer" mostly because of his efforts in
the win at San Fran. Poole caused a couple of fumbles, saving TDs.

Also, Mills is the recipient of a lot of film coverage from several
sources showing "plays of the year". His reception of Bubby Brister's
shovel pass, followed by some good running into the end zone, is making
most people's list.

TTom

    
    
    For a short guy, Sam Mills in one heck of a LB. After spending much of
    his time in the Crescent city playing second string to Jackson and
    others.  Mills has had a chance to show his talents.  

If'n you wanna hand out credit for the accomplishments of the Painters,
you start with the Defense and that starts with Sam Mills.

He calls the shots and evidently, they listen to 'im.

TTom

    
    Of course Madden picked some Panthers - they're NFC.  Did he ever pick
    a Patriot - for anything?
    
    Madden has dropped about 150% in performance as a sportscaster this
    year.  I watched in disbelief at some of the blatant bad analysis
    he came out with in some of the season's latter games.  More amazing
    is the stuff he just totally missed calling.  He is getting real lazy.
    
    - Sean

>    Of course Madden picked some Panthers - they're NFC.  Did he ever pick
>    a Patriot - for anything?

     Madden doesn't include players he didn't see play (in person) that year,
     so generally they will be NFC players.  I think he picked two AFC
     players this year (1 from KC and 1 from Buffalo).

    
    Sean can you name a patriot that deserve it???

    
    Last year:  Pat Harlow, Matt Bahr
    This year:  Curtis Martin

    
    While Curtis Martin had a fine year there's still a few better than
    he.....

    
      Ben Coates. The best tight end in football.

    what were the Madden team picks?

It looks like ol' Sam Mills lost his chance to play in the Pro Bowl.

His last chance was being named a "need player" when Falcon Chris Doleman
got that nod, ending up at DE. That leaves the NFC with Jessie Tuggle and
Ken Norton in the middle.

TTom

News around here is that Derrick Moore, who often looked like he was one
of the few on offense who had a clue, has been told that he won't be
offered a new contrat, at least not now.

Supposedly, Moore and the Painters had agreed to every thing in a new
contract except for the signing bonus. They were about a quarter mil
apart on that.

Now the team has withdrawn its offer and told Moore to start looking
around. 

Supposedly, the team is talking with Chris Warren, among other free
agents about coming on down to Charlotte. Hampton from the Giants is also
being mentioned. 

The Painters have a whole bucket o' money they can spend this year.
Firsted of all, they could only use part of the cap lasted year because
they were a_expansion team. Thised year, they move up to what ever anyone
this side of Dallas can spend.

Also, there aren't guaranteed contracts any more and a lot of players
will prolly be asked to either take a pay cut or just take a hike.

TTom

    
    	I've see Chris Warren's name mentioned as a FA. Didn't he just
    sign a 3 year deal with Seattle?
    
    Ron

The list that came out lasted week has him a a_unrestricted free agent. I
don't know if'n Seattle has designated its franchise player, though.

TTom

    Seattle resigned him lasted week - 3 years, $10 million.
    
    NAZZ

    The Seahawks signed Warren this past weekend according to Al, Dan and
    Frank last night.
    
    Mike

I knew it was too good to be true.

Any word on Hampton?

TTom

    
    Barry Foster is available.....

I heard some where that Hampton has signed with San Fran. Any body got
more info?

One other free agent is Terry Allen, he of Clemson infamy. For some
reason the Skins are jerking him around.

The brain trust has apparently tagged Tim Biakabatuku (sp?) as the player
they most want and think might still be available in the draft.

TTom

I don't think open season on free agents has started yet.

There have been rumors about San Fran going after Hampton,
but they have to wait until the signing period starts.

Mike

I thought the Niners and the Cowboys were exempt from having to follow
league rules ;=]

TTom

>I thought the Niners and the Cowboys were exempt from having to follow
>league rules ;=]

It only seems that way, huh? 

The signing period starts on the 16th.

Mike

It's time for the combines where all the GMs go to see what the prospects
can do, how they look, how fast they are, etc.

Painter Prez Mike McCormack is reporting that Leeland McElroy stole the
show.

Firsted of all, he was one of the few top RBs to risk losing money by
showing slow times.

Then he ran 3 straight 40s in under 4.5, considered the standard between
good and exceptional. In 3 timed runs, he ran a 4.28, 4.29 and 4.33.
McCormack says that after these displays, the scouts stood and gave him a
standing ovation.

Meanwhile, Phillips, George, Biakabutuka and Abdul-Jabbar continued the
recent trend of declining the invite to the combines and instead choosing
to market themselves in video, advertising totally unverified times.

The only other RB he talked about was Stephen Davis from Auburn.

Based on his reactions being reported you'd have to think that McCormack
would love to have McElroy but doesn't think he'll last until the
Painters pick.

Simeon Rice continues to cost hisself money. Lasted year, he woulda been
a top pick. Then he didn't play very well and even got overshadowed on
his own team by Kevin Hardy. Now, after the combine time trials, it's
being reported that he's slow by NFL standards.

TTom

Wail, free agency is here and alive in Painterland.

To free up money, Carolina has waived Pete Metzelaars, Don Beebe, and tackle 
Derrick Graham. They also didn't pick up the option on the final year of 
backup QB Jck Trudeau.

Beebe, Metzelaars and Graham all signed multiyear contracts lasted year. 
The Painters were less than pleased with their play, especially Graham 
who was said to be the cornerstone of the defense. Graham spent most of 
the second half on the bench as the D got a lot better and he din't.

All in all, these moves reduced the payroll by about $2 mil.

On D, the Painters are rumored to be real interested in Aeneas Williams, 
like the rest of the league. The Cards will prolly name Eric Swann the 
franchise player so everyone expects ol' Aeneas to shop hisself hard.

On O, Rodney Hampton has listed Carolina and San Fran as the teams he's 
interested in. This actually favors the Painter cause they have the 
mostest money under the cap in the league. The Niners would have to do 
some serious number games to sign him.

TTom

	If'n they signed "multi-year" contracts last year doesn't
	that mean Carolina is obligated to pay them?


	billl

    
    	In football there are no guaranteed contracts. You get released the
    contract is null and void. The only thing Carolina would have to worry
    about is the signing bonus money. Say Jack Trudeau got a signing
    bonus of 1 million for a 3 year contract, yet only played 1 year. His
    1 million bonus would count as 333K against the salary cap each year.
    Since they released him, they would have to count this years 333K, plus
    next years 333K, for a total of 666K against your salary cap money. For
    a player no longer on the team.
    
    Ron

billlllll,

There are no longer guaranteed contracts in the NFL. If'n the guy signs
and makes the team, he is assured of only that year's salary plus any
signing bonus he may have squeezed outta the owners.

It's becoming quite a ploy to sing players to the high falutin contracts
that sound good until you realize that it don't matter at all nexted
year.

TTom

<set voice = Rosanne Rossanadana>

Never mind....

It is kinda stupid but that's part of their cap economics.

Signing bonuses are starting to get really outta hand with the Deion
Sanders contract. Dallas wants to pro-rate the money - 13 mil isn't it? -
over years that will be options in the contract and for years when the
currently collective bargaining agreement is no long valid.

But then again, I sign contracts with customers and we don't always do
all the work we say we'll do and we don't always bill 'em for all the
money we said we would.

TTom

> Beebe, Metzelaars and Graham all signed multiyear contracts lasted year. 
> The Painters were less than pleased with their play, especially Graham 
> who was said to be the cornerstone of the defense. Graham spent most of 
> the second half on the bench as the D got a lot better and he din't.

  Er, ahh, TTom ...

  Derrick Graham was an offensive lineman.  He was the guy who started
  against Atlanta, and commited the penalty on the attempted 2-point
  conversion at the end of the game (when Green's TD made it 21-20).
  He did spend most of the second half of the season on the bench, to be sure,
  but I don't think he played a single down on the defensive side of the ball.

Offense, defense, what's the difference. ;=)

I need some rest. So far thised week I couldn't get the chess game score
right, had the wrong person doing wrong in the ski wreck and now I caint
even get Graham on the right side of the line...

Time to go!~

TTom

Yeah, man, you're slipping.

Go home, drink some buds, watch the Daytona 500.....


'Saw

>Yeah, man, you're slipping.
>
>Go home, drink some buds, watch the Daytona 500.....

I did just that but seem to have lost some of them brain cells along the
way.

It's not so much kinder and gentler but more like dimmer and foggier. I'm
outta the opinion business and anyone who has a_opinion on anything is
a_idiot. :=]

TTom

Did I see right last night, that the Weenis only lasted 13 laps and was then
whining about it?


'Saw

Yeah, Gordon got clipped, hit the wall and never could get it going
again. He was one of many to leave the race early, including Sterling
Marlin who won the lasted 2 Daytonas.

TTom

    So TTom, The Fords worked together on the drafting to get Jarrett the
    victory.  Amazing to see 20 odd cars inches apart at 180 mph.  I've
    seen it on rte 3 south in Tyngsboro but only at about 85 and maybe only
    10 or so.

Actually it was more a case of the chevies not working together. Ken
Schrader never did hook up with Earnhardt to try to pass Dale Jarrett.

Schrader claimed it wasn't his responsibility to worry about where the 3
car finished. Besides, it din't look like either Chevy could catch the
Thunderbird.

TTom

getting back to the Painters....

Eric Davis is coming to town thised week to talk terms and conditions
with Carolina. He's also going to Detroit. The consensus is that the
Niners won't have any money under the cap to sign Davis to what he can
get in the free agent market.

Other free agents being talked to include Greg Skrepenak, Raiders
offensvie tackle, Saints tight end Wesley Walls and wide out Keenand
McCardell of Baltimore formerly Cleveland. Local gossip has Walls about
signed to start at TE.

TTom 

Hail, I mention his name and lo and behold they sign Greg Skrepenak!~ Ol'
Greg will play one side of the offensive line, standing in a cool 6'7",
340 lbs. He'll be working as the right side of the bookends with Blake
Brockermyer at the left tackle.

Eric Davis is in town today along with his agent Lee Steinberg, who's
also peddling Russell Maryland. Because of their unique position with the
cap, the Painters will be making a big time offer to Davis.  Supposedly,
Steinberg said that Davis turned down a $2 mil/year deal to stay at San
Fran and he's got a $2.5 mil/year offer from Detroit. Another factor in
thier favor is the grass in Painter Stadium, favored by Davis over the
turf in the Silver Dome.

Maryland is being scheduled to come to town nexted week.

Another big name being continued to me mentioned is Aeneas Williams but
it's clear that Davis is the firsted choice.

TTom

Wail, the Painters got their men.

The firsted guy on the wish list, Eric Davis, signed lasted night. Davis 
will start at defensive corner. The deal is for a base of $11+ mil for 4
years, inluding about a $3 mil signing bonus. 

The seconded guy on the wish list, Wesley Walls, signed yesterday. Walls 
played Tight End for New Orleans and he'll start for the Painters. The 
deal is for a base of $4+ mil for 3 years with a $1+ mil signing bonus.

From the very start of the free agency season, which for Carolina started 
the day after Christmas, the powers that be, President Mike McCormick, 
GM Bill Polian and Head Coach Dom Capers, tagged these 2 guys as the top 
of their wish list.

Skrepenak's signing was gravy.

Yesterday's other target, Russell Maryland is supposedly heading to 
Oakland. FWIW, Larry Brown has already signed at Oakland.

TTom

Oh yeah, the Painters luck in coin tosses continues.

They finished in a dead heat with Houton at the 8/9 slot. Yesterday, they
won the flip and get the 8th pick. The word is that they like Tim
Biakabutuka at that slot but there's a lot of time for wheeling and
dealing afore the draft.

TTom

TTom,

Two good signings by Carolina, but so far the major player in free agency
is the other expansion guys (Jacksonville).  I can't see how Chicago (Spellman)
or Indianapolis (Coryatt) can match those offers, and they've already inked
Searcy.

Chicago already matched Spellman's contract. Haven't heard about Coryatt
but I also doubt Indy will belly up to the bar.

Supposedly, after lasted week's visit, Keanan McCardell and the Painters
are real close, but not close enough to keep him from leaving without
signing. They claim that they'll make him a_offer.

The nexted biggie is Cornelius Bennett who Polian swung a deal for to get
him in Buffalo. It's gonna cost some big bucks but prolly no more that
Jville's gonna pay Coryatt. Lasted year's OLB, Darion Conner is not being
offered anything as yet leaving that slot open for Bennett in the 3-4
scheme.

Meanwhile, most of both lines have been re-signed.

TTom

> Chicago already matched Spellman's contract. Haven't heard about Coryatt
> but I also doubt Indy will belly up to the bar.
    
    Pretty sure that I read where Indy intends on bellying up on Coryatt, 
    if it's at all possible.  There's another guy who found himself in
    the right place at the right time when Gutless Neil hit him in the
    numbers... I guess I wouldn't sign Coryatt based on his hands... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

I wonder what it's like to have a GM who knows how to handle the Cap AND 
Free Agency!

Way up there on the list of what the Painters did right was to hire
McCormack as Prez and Polian as GM.

Now the one thing we shouldn't forget it that this is the lasted year
that the Painters and Jagwires get any cap help. By limiting the cap for
each of the expansion teams, it created this windfall the second year.

Who the new teams are going for and the money that they're offering show
the benefits.

TTom

Today's news is that the Painters have a couple more million to spend
against the cap thanks to a federal judge who bumped the cap.

Cornelius Bennett went on to Green Bay but more and more it looks like
he's headed back to Buffalo. For one thing, no one on the Panthers said
they'd make the offer that they think it'll take to get him, namely
about 15 million bucks.

Coming to town in the nexted coupld of days: Mark Maddox, Buffalo ILB;
Jumpy Geathers, Atlants defensive end; Tim Johnson, Washington defensive
lineman; and Lewis Tillman, newly released Chicago RB.

FWIW, Brett Senior is the agent for both Geathers and Johnson. He also is
current MLB Sam Mills' agent, which shouldn't hurt anything.

Meanwhile, Rodney Hampton who was mentioned earlier for at RB is in San
Francisco. Both the Niners and the Giants seem to be ready to make him
a_offer.

TTom

Meanwhile, Bennett signs with the Falcons.

Rodney Hamton signed a_offer with the Niners and the Giants matched it.

And can somebody tell me when Natrone Means became a bum in the ilk of
Barry Foster? I know he held out for money and missed some pre-season but
I've never heard of or seen any lack of effort.

TTom

>And can somebody tell me when Natrone Means became a bum in the ilk of
>Barry Foster? I know he held out for money and missed some pre-season but
>I've never heard of or seen any lack of effort.

An article I read in the Glove(tm) said that Means had held out last year,
had become a "man about town", and was a possible threat to hold out again
this year.

True?  Who knows?

Wail, I'd say ol' Natrone would be a natural for the Painters. I hope
they take a chance on 'im.

TTom

>And can somebody tell me when Natrone Means became a bum in the ilk of
>Barry Foster? I know he held out for money and missed some pre-season but
>I've never heard of or seen any lack of effort.

Either Gordon Forbes (USA Today) or some other NFL "expert" wrote A YEAR
AGO that Means would become the next Barry Foster.  He said his contract
complaints, and lack of personal conditioning program concerned SD.

His name was immediately mentioned after it was reported that the Giants
would match SF's offer to Hampton.

I don't see how Means is anything like Foster on the field.

Pittsburgh won whatever they won despite Foster's efforts or lack
therein.

Means helped carry his team to the big prize. I would think that he
was the MVP on the team.

Off the field, all I've ever heard is that he has a rap for contract
disputes.

As for conditioning, he's been a tank since he came to Chapel Hill. And
if anything, he's significantly improved his speed since then.

It sounds like Carmen Policy doesn't necessarily agree with Forbes.

I hope the media experts are wrong and, at the least, the Painters take a
look-see for themselves.

TTom

>It sounds like Carmen Policy doesn't necessarily agree with Forbes.

It's also possible that Carmen Policy is a desperate man.

Main, all this signing, re-signing, matching, offer sheets, players under
contract getting cut, etc., etc., is making the NFL look a whole lot like
MLB with ever one coming and going and who even knows who plays for
who[m].

>It's also possible that Carmen Policy is a desperate man.

Could be, but I'll take a desparate Policy over any kinda Gorden Forbes.

In any case, what would it hurt to give the guy a tryout?

TTom

>In any case, what would it hurt to give the guy a tryout?

He might fall on you.

                    <<< Note 142.362 by USCTR1::GARBARINO >>>

>Either Gordon Forbes (USA Today) or some other NFL "expert" wrote A YEAR
>AGO that Means would become the next Barry Foster.  He said his contract
>complaints, and lack of personal conditioning program concerned SD.

That and the fact that Hayden did quite well while Means was out. 
He's been on the trading block since end of the season with no 
interest. They wanted to free up some sal cap cash for some free 
agent shopping and no one was willing to take Means off their 
hands.

daryll

Hey, I'd take Aaron Hayden too. In a heart beat.

In any case, there's hardly no talk about even inviting him here.
Remember, this team has already tried to deal the real Barry Foster.

TTom

>> In any case, there's hardly no talk about even inviting him here.
>> Remember, this team has already tried to deal the real Barry Foster.
    
    And I think the Steelers either got a 3rd or 4th round pick from yins
    in the Foster deal.

Yeah but if'n ol' Natrone clears waivers we don't owe nothin to nobody
fer 'im.

TTom

According to the Painters, this was a good draft.

They got their main main, RB Tim Biakabutuka, whose real name is not Tim
but Thimthingelse. Given that Phillips had alrady gone and that the
Painters din't wan him in the firsted place, Biakabutuka was a natural.
There's no questioning his running ability but he'll have to work on the
rest of the job, especially helping out in the passing game.

But they din't stop there. WR Muhsin Muhammad was the second choice
continuing with a strong state of Michigan trend. Muhammad, like some of
the other choices, was taken as part of a_overall move to add speed to
the team.

The third pick was RB Winslow Oliver, who will hopefully be a Dave
Meggett type back. DT JC Price was also added in the 3rd round.

The real hype is about what happened next. OT Norberto Garrido who is
huge to say the least was taken as the firsted in the 4th. Garrido has a
good chance at starting. Then the Painters traded up, over, around and
down to get Emmanuel McDaniel from semi-local East Carolina. He's said to
be very similar to Tyrone Poole who started lasted year as a rookie.

RB Marquette Smith was added in the 5th. Smith was some player of the
year outta high school, started at FSU but switched to Central Florida
because of health problems with his mother.

Basically, in addition to just plain ol' having to get better, the
Painters have now added a lot of speed, solidified their offensive line,
upgraded their running game, all of which has got to help Kerry Collins.

Oh yeah, they also got at least three starters from free agency, Greg
Skrepenak from the Raiders, Wesley Walls from the Saints and Eric Davis
from the Niners.

TTom

    re: -1
    
    I would sure hate to be in the Panthers broadcast booth after this
    draft!

Biakabutuka running behind Garrido, Skrepenak and Brockermeyer.

Multiculturalism Roolz!~

But don't worry about the broadcasters. The main guy is some guy from
Buffalo who obviously performs certain services for Bill Poulian. Most of
the time you caint figger out who has the ball much less the details of
who is actually playing. They're all into attempting amusing anecdotes.

TTom

Panthers 96 Schedule

Aug  3	vs	Chicago
Aug 10	at	Denver
Aug 17	vs	Buffalo
Aug 23	at	NY Giants

Sep  1	vs	Atlanta
Sep  8	at	New Orleans
Sep 15		open
Sep 22	vs	San Francisco
Sep 29	at	Jacksonville
Oct  6	at	Minnesota
Oct 13	vs	St Louis
Oct 20	vs	New Orleans
Oct 27	at	Philadelphia
Nov  3	at	Atlanta
Nov 10	vs	NY Giants
Nov 17	at	St Louis
Nov 24	at	Houston
Dec  1	vs	Tampa Bay
Dec  8	at	San Francisco
Dec 15	vs	Baltimore
Dec 22	vs	Pittsburgh

    Opening the new stadium with the Falcons - wanted a sure win, right?

    Having never jumped on the chuck and duck bandwagon, I'll probably try
    and follow the Panthers this year.  Don't really recognize anyone on
    the 'Skins (except Green) this year.

    Is it just me, or is anyone else just not excited by pro football?

    UMDan

>    Is it just me, or is anyone else just not excited by pro football?

This Painter fan is excited. It's nice to actually be playing the home
games in the same state having endured the treks to Clemson lasted year.

Also, fresh on the total flop of a season that the Bugs had, this area is
starting to really get excited about the up and coming Painters.

TTom

Painters doings...

Tim Biakabutuka joins the rest of the other nine draftees in rookie 
mini-camp starting this morning. As with some other teams, a lot of 
non-rookies will also be in camp, about 60 of 'em, including lasted 
years first rounder Kerry Collins.

The rookie salary cap is right at $3.5 mil. Biakabutuka is expected to 
get around 1.5 of that.

Put Duane Bickett in the all-bug-signed category. The Painters are trying 
to re-sign Darion Conner and, along with some others, are chasing Kevin 
Greene. Obviously the plan is to upgrade the talent at OLB. Prolly the 
bestest thing going is that Greene and Capers are buddies from Steelers 
days together.

Meanwile, Rod Smith is visiting some other teams but still might re-sign 
and Bill Polian has invited Andre Reed back for another try. The obvious 
issues are if'n Reed has anything left and how much he'd want since he 
sounds like he still considers himself to be a star.

TTom

      I'm no Panther fan, but I always read about the NFL in the paper
    before I will any other sport, 'cept maybe the fishin' report (-).
    
      I can't, but will havta wait until August for the real mans sport to
    begin.
    
      Tim

Supposedly, Kevin Greene will make up his mind in the nexted couple of
days on whether he stays in Pittsburgh or moves on, maybe to the
Painters.

It turns out that his agent, Leigh Steinberg, is also Kerry Collins main
main. Add that to the Caper connection and you'd have to say they're
strong in the running.

Polian wants to have it finalized one way or the other by thised week so
if'n Greene doesn't come on down then the Painters can keep looking.

TTom

> Polian wants to have it finalized one way or the other by thised week so
> if'n Greene doesn't come on down then the Painters can keep looking.
    
    If'n the Painters sign Greene for big money, they've basically stated 
    that they're committed to the past...
    
    
    glenn
    

>    If'n the Painters sign Greene for big money, they've basically stated 
>    that they're committed to the past...

Respectfully, I disagree.

It's continuing in the trend that they used lasted year which to try to
blend the vets with the younguns. Greene is no more a commitment to the
past than Sam Mills was lasted year.

TTom

Kevin Greene update: The steelhaids don't want him and won't offer him a
contract.

That leaves the Painters, who've offered Greene a contract, along with
the Ravens in the running for his services. However, Modell is whining
about not having the money so this one may just default the Painters way.

TTom

    
> It's continuing in the trend that they used lasted year which to try to
> blend the vets with the younguns. Greene is no more a commitment to the
> past than Sam Mills was lasted year.

    Let me amend to say "if the Painters give Greene more than a one-year
    deal..." (even with such contracts being non-guaranteed you've got the
    implied two-year bonus money).  The Stillers say they'll go with Jason
    Gildon or one of their two promising LB draft picks instead, even
    though Greene isn't _that_ expensive.  That speaks for itself.
    
    glenn
    
    
                          

I agree about the long term thing but I can see the Painters offering a
couple of years if'n they think that's what it'll take.

>        -< Greene just as much product of great 3-4 "D" as lone talent >-

This is part of the scenario. Capers is one of the few still going with
the 3-4.

TTom

Wail, Greene signed up for 2 years at about 650K plus incentives per
year.

Rod Smith is gone, signed with the Vikings.

I doubt that Polian, McCormack and crew will stop here. They have Smith's
money to play with at least.

TTom

and they're off...

Painters mini camp has started and outta the 82 players currently on the 
roster, 79 showed up.

Bubba McDowell was given permission to show a day late so he could go on 
his honeymoon (lame ;=]); punter Kevin Feighy, who's still playing 
WeLAFf, and unsigned Darion Conner who looks to be the odd man out among 
the linebackers.

The new players were prominent on both sides.

On offense, top pick RB Tim Biakabutuka, Wesley Wells, free agent TE from
the Saints, and Greg Skrepenak, free agent OT from the Raiders, all were 
immediately placed in starting positions.

On defense, Keving Greene, free agnet LB from the Steelers, and Eric 
Davis, free agent CB from the Niners, both started and caused som player 
movement. Lamar Lathon and Tyrone Poole will both move to the right side 
to let the free agents play in their prefered positions. Lathon welcomed 
the change since he'll get a chance at the blind side of most the 
quarterbacks.

There's a lot of chatter about making the playoffs, which is possible, 
but until there's some real progress made on scoring points, all I can 
see is 8-8. 

TTom

updates from Painters mini camp:

The Firsted pick in the draft is officially requesting that the media if 
not fans use his given firsted name and refer to him as Tshimanga 
(pronounced tee-MONG-uh) Biakabutuka (pretty much like it reads). This 
aint exactly like when Tony Dorsett wanted to called Dorsette but it's a 
start. In any case, Biakabutuka has been a little tentative in practice 
due mainly to the fack that he barely knows the playbook. Progress, 
however, is obvious.

Some more comings and goings: Bubba McDowell showed up as agreed, a day 
late to be on his honeymonn; Jim Kubiak will miss nexted weeks session 
since he has to return to the navy and his duties on the U.S.S. 
Eisenhower. Talk about a flimsy excuse...

Early firsed impressions have been very high for 7th round pick, Donnell 
Baker from Southern. Capers has been mentioning him as one of the ones 
that's caught his eye. Baker made a great catch and run yesterday for a 
TD.

It turns out that ex-Painter Derrick Moore made a rather expensive 
mistake when he refused a_offer for a 3-year deal for 2.4 mil including a 
200K signing bonus. Moore turned down the Painter offer wanting more of a 
signing bonus. The best offer Moore could get from another team was a 
1-year deal with Detroit for 275K and no bonus. And oh yeah, he gets to 
play behind Barry Sanders.

GM Bill Polian laid out his plans for signing the rookies. He's on 
vacation until after July 8 so nobody will be signed afore that. He said 
he expects no problems in signing any or all of 'em.

TTom

and on and on...

Today's story is the John Kasay, already considered by many to be among
the better placekickers, has worked all off season on a strenght and
coniditioning program to add distance to his kickoffs.

Lasted year, a lot of Kasay's kickoffs fell short giving opponents real
good field position to start their drives. So Kasay has added about 10
pounds and lot of leg strength. Besides helping his defense, the added
yardage helps the whole team out. The Painters haven't had to sign
another kicker for kickoffs.

Newly signed free agent Wesley Walls has become a major fan of second
year QB, Kerry Collins. Walls has been singing Collins' praise since day
one of camp. Both attended the optional, for them, rookie camp and
clicked immediately.

The rookie receivers continue to get a lot or reps and Donnell Baker
continues to receive good review from Capers, who gives him a good chance
to make the team. Not bad for a 7th rounder.

TTom

On the cover of the local rag, 5'8" Tyrone Poole doing his best 
immitation of Spud Webb, dunking the ball over the crossbar after 
intercepting a pass from backup QB Steve Buerlein and running it back for 
a TD!

Lasted season, Poole made the all-rookie defensive team at cornerback. So 
he worked out the entire offseason to improve. By all accounts, this guy 
is for real. He has remarkable quickness and speed. And as clearly shown 
in the photo he can get up there, too.

Now Poole is teamed with Eric Davis, hopefully making them one of the
better tandems at cornerback in the league. One of the glaringly bad
stats for lasted year's defense, which played about as good as
a_expansion defense can, was that they gave up the big play more than any
other team. 

But the Painters added Davis along with linebackers Duane Bickett and 
Kevin Greene, hoping to more solid deep and more pressure up front.

TTom

Ok so the defense is older'n dirt...

	Sam Mills, LB, 37
	Brett Maxie, Safety, 34
	Kevin Greene, LB, 34
	Greg Kragen, NT, 34
	Gerald Williams, DE, 32
	Carlton Bailey, LB, 31

All projected starters.

TTom

      Sam Mills is 37?   Break out the walker (-)
    
      Tim

wail, yesterday, I made my soon to be annual trek down to mini-camp. It's
at Winthrop College in Rock Hill, SC, just south o' the border.

Then the electical monsoons set in and they canceled practice. Bummer.

The onliest highlight of the whole affair was seeing a newly shorn Kevin
Greene, who hardly nobody recognize, jump into his 4-wheeler and leave
just as we were leaving. We followed him around to the back of the
Winthrop Coliseum where he stopped, right in the road, got out and who
comes running up but Kerry Collins who looked like he was trying to avoid
the autograph seekers. Collins jumps in at the wheel and we're waving and
tyring to get his attention. We finally caught up with 'em at a light and
they acknowledged our ridiculous behavior.

I din't get a chance to ask him about his upcoming fight against Ric
Flair.

TTom

Lasted year, the Painters signed a couple of players with some experience 
and due to what they're calling a clerical error, agreed to pay 'em more 
than they had to under league minimum rules.

Bob Christian and Howard Griffith were both promised 150K more than the 
minimum based on what was thought to be their NFL experience. Christian 
signed and then the Painters found out about. Since they had already 
signed Christian there wasn't much they could do. So they lowere their 
offer to Griffith who was less than pleased, promising to give him 150K 
thised year.

Wail, the Painters meant what they said and said what they meant cause a 
Painter is faithful 100 %. Griffith gets 150K more thised year.

Today's the lasted day of mini camp. Then ever one gets a month break 
until the real camp which starts 7/15.

And the real news is that Kevin Greene is fighting Ric Flair on PPV 
tomorrow night. When asked if'n he'd watch, Capers said. "I probably 
won't get a chance to watch that, which is probably good."

I'm with Capers on this one. I mean pro wrestling has really 
deteriorated, almost down to the MLB level. Maybe Marge'll show up to be 
a_honorary owner or something.

TTom

    
>> Wail, the Painters meant what they said and said what they meant cause a 
>> Painter is faithful 100 %. Griffith gets 150K more thised year.
    
    I thought Horton the elephant said that.

>    I thought Horton the elephant said that.

He's the Panther's offensive line coach.

Those Dastards!~

Kevin Greene and Steve McMichael fought Ric Flair and Arn Anderson lasted
night.

Greene was more than holding his own when McMichael congs him over the
haid with the metal briefcase full of money. Ric Flair pins ol' Kevin.

TTom

    
    
    
      Will that be shown tonight on RAW?  
    
    

RAW what?

I quit following pro wrestling a while ago. Course being in one of the
former capitals of the sport, it still makes local news.

The thing that I was wondering, if'n this had something to do with why
Greene cut his hair...

TTom

    
    
         Highlights will be tonight on Raw. 8:00 PM EST.
    
    

    
    
      way cool

      Try monday WCW nitro, not RAW, thats the "other" wrasslin' group.
    
      I man enough to admit I watch it from time to time, especially when
    there is no other "sport entertainment" on.
    
      Hogan and Flair need to graze....
    
      T-bone

Wail, one of the local stations showed the incident.

It all started with the wimmin. Flair and Anderson had two trollips with
'em. Let me say this about them: they were no great shakes. So these
wimmin supposedly made Kevin Green's and Mongo McMichael's wimmin leave.

Whereupon, McMichaels wimman returns. Let me say this about her: her
assets were manifest!~. So she brings out a T-Shirt for McMichaels and a
metal brief case containing some money that someone supposedly stole for
Macho Man (how he got involved was never explained).

Just when it looked like Kevin was gonna take out ol' Ric, Mongo congoed
'im with the metal briefcase.

A good time was had by all.

TTom

> It all started with the wimmin. Flair and Anderson had two trollips with
> 'em. Let me say this about them: they were no great shakes. So these
> wimmin supposedly made Kevin Green's and Mongo McMichael's wimmin leave.
    
    Is this a description of real-life WWF episode or the faux-fiction
    Blades brothers incident?
    
    glenn
    

This is what was showed on local TV.

Like with the Blades Brothers, in this case the wimmin made 'em do it...

TTom

and meanwhile, the Painters are starting to sign their draft picks.

Yesterday, #4 pick, Norberto Garrido, OT, USC and #5 pick Marquette
Smith, RB, Central Florida, both signed.

Garrido is a monster while Smith was the top ranked RB outta high school
who got sidetracked from Florida St.

It's nice to have some news outta camp aside from the usual NFL legal
things like killing somebody, dealing drugs and DWIs while on probation.

TTom

    
    
    This is WCW not WWF.
    
    
          The Woman with the long black hair is "Woman" she is married in
    real life to Kevin Sullivan (who Rick Flair is now fueding with)The one
    with the dark curly hair is Miss Elizabeth she was married to Macho Man
    and her Spiel is that she is spending all his alimony on his hated
    rival Rick Flair (Wooooooooooo). Apparently Steve McMichael was bought
    with Macho's Alimony.....

You the main, Chap.

Not only do you follow MLB, you're up on rasslin, too!~

It still doesn't explain Mongo's wimman and her really big hair, though

      Flair was making eyes and saying sweet things to Mondo's gal.
    
      Ms. 'beth is a babe!  Woman screams toooo much;-)
    
      Tim  

There were a couple more rookie signings.

4th rounder Emmanuel McDaniel, DB, from East Carolina and someone else
but the local rag only had 2 pages of sports and couldn't be bothered
printing one freakin column inch on the local NFL team.

McDaniel has been working out with Tryone Poole and shows a lot of the
same skills, namely speed, quickness and jumping ability.

TTom

Now that all of us saps- a.k.a. PSL holders - chipped in the money to
build stadium, the Richardsons have out money grubbed us.

They sold the rights to the name of the Stadium to a Swedish
telecommunications company that most people in these here parts have
never heard of. 

The new name for the stadium in Charlotte where the Carolina Panthers
will play:

		ERICCSON STADIUM!~

Go figger.

TTom

The name Ericsson is well known here as a manufacturer of communications
hardware.

What did you think, TTom, buying a PSL gave you votes on the name?

Steve

>What did you think, TTom, buying a PSL gave you votes on the name?

So far, it's got me squat :*[

Actually, there was not only a consensus about the stadium name having
something about the Panthers, that the Panthers themselves called it
Panther Stadium when they were pitching it to us.

Hey, just another way to milk some money. And in terms of personal duress
this one aint as bad as the beer deal.

Miller paid a bunch of money to be the official beer and Budweisers are
few and far between. 

TTom

Well, you're not even close to hitting bottom.  NFL owners have a way of
letting the fans know in what high regard they hold them.

Steve

    
    TTom,
    
    	At least you have Miller Beer, the worst beer for a sporting
    event has to be at Fenway for a Sox game. If you don't have good
    seats, you have to walk a ways for a Budweiser. If you don't want
    to walk you have to settle for Coors light draft.
    
    Ron

Tough call, Ron.

Miller gags me and Coors is big time watered down.

However, after all that I get to watch NFl instead of MLB so I guess I'm
a little ahead of the game...

TTom

  The best brew is Bass Ale but then if they called the place Bass Stadium
no one would go because no one wants to watch a bunch of guys fishing.

  George

>  The best brew is Bass Ale but then if they called the place Bass Stadium
>no one would go because no one wants to watch a bunch of guys fishing.

IYO, of course. Do they sell in in a can?

As for local interest in bass fishing, that's one of the bigger sports
round here. In case you're not familiar with this area, there's 4 or 5
major lakes and fishing is one of the main things people do on it.

In fack, they have international bass fishing tournaments round here
often and a local guy one it a couple of years ago. And wimmin do it to
so ya gotta be careful of the "guys" thing. Like stock car racing, it
aint only good ol' boys anymore.

TTom

  All I can say is that you guys sure know how to have fun. :*)}

  When I drink Bass I usually get it on tap and from time to time I get a 6
pack of bottled Bass. Don't know if it comes in cans.

  George

It's suprising how many beverages come in cans but no one sells.

I used to be in the bar n' grill business and about ever kind they sold
they had in cans. I don't know about some of them johnny come lately and
fancy things like Wicked Pete's and the like but Heineken, Lowenbrau,
etc. could be had in a_aluminum cylindrical container.

>  All I can say is that you guys sure know how to have fun. :*)}

I heard dat!~

TTom

    I see Oscos has a nice sale on its bud 12 packs with a rebate.  You can
    buy the good stuff cheaper than the n/a O'Douls.  Now if only Dunkins
    would run a sale.

I wish I had a nickle for ever Bud I drank, on sale or otherwise.

This is only slightly related but the opened one of the "Jocks and Jills"
place just nexted door. I don't know where y'all come down on the issue
of what a bar should and shouldn't be but this place sucks.

Firsted of all, you walk in off the streets and already most of the place
is reserved!~ Pardon me, a bar that take reservations so people coming in
caint just belly up or plop theyselves down?

Then, of course, this is supposed to be upscale so they want 3 bucks a
beer. Now, I know that you people in the depressed north might think 3
bucks aint that bad but round here the going rate is .le. 2 bucks and
if'n you charge more you better have a ball game or some female type
taking her clothes off.

Then you get to the meal of frozen burgers and microwaved food stuffs all
served by someone with a_attitude.

Good times were had by all, NOT!@~#

TTom

>Then you get to the meal of frozen burgers and microwaved food stuffs all
>served by someone with a_attitude.
>
>Good times were had by all, NOT!@~#

Just go in there and ask where Jill is, and tell them you wanna show her
yer jock.

When they boot you, you can get them on false advertisin.....


Sounds like a fern bar anyway.

>Sounds like a fern bar anyway.

I heard dat!~

And, of course, they got 'em stanind in line to go there. All I can think
of is how ironic it would be if'n the Hornets move and this place is no
longer across the street from where the Bugs play.

TTom

Training camp is just a couple of days from now and still all the top
picks are unsigned.

Polian claims that all will be signed so it's about time to get going.

Biakabatuka and the Painters are about on the same page for money but
have the philosophical issues to deal with like options, buy outs, soft
monies, guarantees, etc.

TTom

Wail, the players are headed to camp and Tshimanga aint one of 'em.

About ever other day, the team announces that they're making some
progress in the negotiations. About ever other day, the team announces
that they're "miles apart".

Today we're "miles apart" again.

Biakabutuka is not the onliest unsigned draftee, neither. 

2nd round wideout Muhsin Muhammad, 3rd round running back Winslow Oliver,   
and 4th round DB Emmanuel McDaniel are all unsigned.

Lasted year, though, a couple of the top picks were signed the day camp
starts, which would be tomorrow, and Kerry Collins signed the nexted day.

TTom

I wish MacTfM was still around.

So I bought a PSL and they din't sell out so now they;re offering the
seats for individual games.

I paid about 2700 bucks for the rights to pay 32 bucks per game. My
section was not sold out, however.

Now some guy gets to walk into the same game and basically the same seat
for the mere pitance of 32 bucks.

I've called the Panthers, lodged a formal complaint asking for all my
money back. If'n they don't I'm suing along with about 10 other PSL
holders in my section.

Meanwhile, firsted rounder TB is holding out for Kerry Collins style
numbers even though he weren't the firsted pick overall a la Kerry.

It's a plus for the team and especially Marquette Smith who's reminding a
lot of people of why he was a top rated high school RB. Smith dropped
outta sight when he transfered from FSU to Central Fla so that he could
be with his family. Now, he's getting all the snaps and no one is missing
that other guy no matter what he's calling hisself these days.

TTom

>> I've called the Panthers, lodged a formal complaint asking for all my
>> money back. If'n they don't I'm suing along with about 10 other PSL
>> holders in my section.

   The only person who'll come out ahead in this is the lawyer. Honestly,
   TTom, on what grounds are you suing? I'm assuming that like other PSLs
   all yours does is guarantee you the right to buy a seat. You still have
   that right. It may be essentially worthless but you still have it. If
   the Panthers win a SB or get a hot coach like the Pats did and over-
   night become the hot team in town your PSL might be worth something
   otherwise you just made a bad investment. Did the Panthers ever tell you 
   that no one could ever buy a seat without a PSL?  There was a story in 
   the Globe when the Raiders were moving back to Oakland and perpetrating 
   the PSL scam to load the coffers in the process. One poor slob figured 
   there'd be a run on seast so he put in 5 applications for four seats 
   each figuring that *maybe* one would get through. Unfortunately there 
   was no run on seats and all of his applications went through and he 
   owed the Raiders ~$20,000.
    

      Just because he put an app in doesn't mean he hasta fork it over,
    does it?  
    
      Is it like a contract?  WE know what nfl contracts are worth...
    
      Tim

Basically, there are two issues at stake.

One is the terms and conditions of the purchase. We were assured, on
record, that seats in the PSL sections would not be made available to the
general, non-PSL public. Now the Panthers are saying they din't mean that
but nonetheless it's on record prior to my purchase.

Secondly, again on record, both of the major banks, First Union and
Nationsbank, promised that they would purchase any unsold PSLs. 

Now, the team has backtracked a bit and because a lot of us PSLers
complained, they are at this point only offering tickets to the firsted
pre-season game in hopes that the team, the banks or someone else will
purchase the remaining PSLs.

As for the PSL itself, it requires that you continuously purchase the
season tickets themselves or your forfeit your license. At this point it
is returned to the Panthers and you get your money back.

However, at any point, you may sell your PSL for whatever you can get
which gets into a possible third issue which is devaluing the investment.
It's unlikely that you can get any more than your money back from the
public if single tickets are available. Not being a legal type I don't
know if'n this will float.

TTom

    
      Good luck. What do you expect to get out of it? Your money
     back? I really don't think the Panthers want to set that 
     kind of precedent because everyone who was crazy enough to
     pony up $2700 for the right to buy a ticket will want their
     dough back. Maybe they'll throw you a little something to
     keep you quiet. A cheerleader would be nice but I wouldn't
     count on it. Most likely they'll give you nothing and count 
     on the fact that they have deeper pockets than you and can
     outmuscle you in court. I'd really like to see this PSL scam
     blow up in some team's face but there's no shortage of saps
     out there so it's not likely to happen soon.

At this point, Tommy, I'd take my money back.

So far, it's been one misrepresentation after another from where the
seats are to what will they do if'n they don't sell out.

A PSL in and for itself is not that bad a_idea. But changing the rules as
they go along is got me fired up.

In a matter of a couple of years I went from a major fan of the major
sports to almost not caring about 'em.

Anybody want Hornets some tickets :-[

TTom

> At this point, Tommy, I'd take my money back.
    
    Well, it sounds like all you'd have to do is cancel your season 
    tickets, then stand in line.  Which puts you on (nearly) equal 
    footing with those who haven't bought PSLs.  Make 'em pay.  I'm
    surprised that there aren't a whole lot of outraged customers
    doing exactly this.
    
> A PSL in and for itself is not that bad a_idea. But changing the rules as
> they go along is got me fired up.
    
    I thought it was a scam from the get-go, and said so.  It'd have been 
    the last straw for me.  The thing with the "guarantees" is how could
    you ever expect them to be honored, without exception?  That the PSLs 
    would all sell out is entirely subject to market supply and demand.
    The "guarantee" is equivalent to a guarantee on stock performance, 
    profit, etc.
    
    glenn
    

There's talk of a class action suit which will definitely limit how much
all this is gonna cost me.

At this point, the team has shown the character of Slick Willie when it
comes to keeping their word.

A side story but not very minor is that the basis for Richardson's
income, Flagstar, which owns Denny's and Hardee's is on the verge of
bankruptcy. It's stock is down to about 2 bucks per share. Lasted year it
was in the teens.

Maybe the guy needs the bucks. But I don't understand why he din't just
press the banks to honor their commitment.

As for PSLs, like free agency, it's the way sports work nowadays. The
problem with them seems to be in this type of case when they don't sell
out.

TTom

> Maybe the guy needs the bucks. But I don't understand why he din't just
> press the banks to honor their commitment.
    
    Well, you know how banks are.  I'd trust getting my money back for 
    a bad hamburger at Hardee's before the bank...
    
    glenn
    

    
    >> Well, it sounds like all you'd have to do is cancel your season 
    >> tickets, then stand in line.  Which puts you on (nearly) equal 
    >> footing with those who haven't bought PSLs.  Make 'em pay.  I'm
    >> surprised that there aren't a whole lot of outraged customers
    >> doing exactly this.
     
       It's giving up the season tickets where they have you. I'd never
       pay ten cents for the right to buy a seat nevermind $2700 but 
       there is something to be said for having a guaranteed good seat 
       for every game and the playoffs should they make them. 
    
    >> The thing with the "guarantees" is how could you ever expect them  
    >> to be honored, without exception?  That the PSLs would all sell out 
    >> is entirely subject to market supply and demand. The "guarantee" is 
    >> equivalent to a guarantee on stock performance, profit, etc.
    
       The very idea of a PSL assumes that they will all sell out. The
       Oilers wouldn't sell PSLs in Houston but the Cowboys can forcefeed
       fans pre-season games in Dallas. If TTom didn't think they'd sell 
       out, why would he buy one? It really sounds like he gambled and 
       lost just like the folks in Oakland. It's bound to happen elsewhere 
       as well. Having a football franchise sounds great to folks in Nash-
       ville and Baltimore, etc but when they realize it'll cost 'em three 
       grand up front *plus* the cost of a season ticket then the appeal 
       becomes a bit more limited. The experience in Carolina will be a 
       lesson for a lot of folks including New Englanders because Kraft
       is talking about pulling this scam to try and get his essentially
       free stadium built.
    

>If TTom didn't think they'd sell out, why would he buy one?

Tommy, right on with this one.

In truth, it was such a natural assumption since there's over 10,000 on
the Hornets tickets waiting list. I figgered, incorrectly, that the
onliest way to count on seeing the Pnathers was the PSL.

The irony of all this is that I can get about 3 grand for my Hornets
tickets which I din't pay anything for while my 3 grand PSL looks to be a
loss.

Maybe I can sell both of 'em in a package...

TTom

PSLgate update:

Today the Panthers came pretty close to re-committing to sell out the
PSLs. 

This whole thing started when the Panthers decided to sell single game
tickets to the un-sold PSL seats. However, when asked if'n they would
continue doing this after Saturday's game, a spokesman claimed that he
din't think that would be necessary and expressed optimism that this
would be settled the way they promised, i.e., the team and/or local banks
and businesses would by out any unsold PSLs.

Meanwhile, TB is still holding out. Yesterday, his agent called the
latest team offer a_insult and supposedly quoted what was offered.
Problem was that what he listed wasn't even close and in fack, the team
and TB are very close on the money.

The conflict is over buy-outs and about a mil of bonus moneys. Marquette
Smith continues to make the Panthers look good in not giving into TB.
Smith is in the starting rotation in terms of getting the snaps.

Right now, Capers has Kevin Greene and Lamar Lathon starting at OLB with
Darion Conner and Duane Bickett backing 'em up. The four will continue to
battle through camp to see who starts when it counts.

Capers is giving his highest praise to the corners, second year Tyrone
Poole and free agent Eric Davis. Capers claim they stack up with any pair
in the league.

TTom

re: TB

We now have watcha call a stalemate.

TB and his agent are lying to the media about what is being offered so
Polian went public with his offer and it has about ever thing they asked
for, including signing bonus, performance bonus, out years, money, etc.

So Polian says that's it. TB can call if'n he wants to take it but don't
bother otherwise.

Tomorrow will be the firsted football game in the new Ericsson Stadium.
At least I'm looking forward to that. Supposedly, my name is on the
Personal Sucker List etched in stone for all to see my folly, taken for
granite.

TTom

    Show of hands; who thinks TB is going to be a great NFL running back, 
    anyway?  I'm entirely unconvinced.  From what I saw of him at 
    Michigan, I think he's too much a "straight-ahead" speed runner...
    
    glenn
    

>                     -< I wouldn't break the bank for him >-

Been talking to Polian, glenn? That's exactly what he says.

He makes the case that this is a better contract than either Glenn with
the Pats or Larry with the Rams. More money, more performance money, more
signing bonus, more total money, etc.

I think that TB could be a good RB. In my wildest dreams, however, I
fantasize that Marquette Smith is the second coming of another Florida
Smith, Emmitt.

TTom

At the begining of negotiations, TB and his agent as well as Polian and
the Panthers all agreed to keep the main issues outta the press and focus
on reaching a_agreement.

Wail, now it's full time "Let's debate this in the media". Both sides are
essentially calling each other liars whilest imploring the public to
choose their side.

In any case, us and about 72,000 others din't miss TB a bit. Marquette
Smith started at RB and did nothing, making 9 yards in about 8 carries.

The star of backfield was second year Dino Philyaw who actually looked
like a real NFL RB.

The defense was outstanding, scoring one on a pick by Eric Davis. Fellow
CB, Tyrone Poole made one of the great recoveries I've ever seen. On a
down and out pattern, he bit hard and got completely turned around. He
put his jets on and recovered in time to knock away what coulda been
a_easy TD. FWIW, Mark Carrier covered Mark Carrier.

Special teams were outstanding, one bad snap that resulted in a missed
PAT notwithstanding. Lasted year, PK John Kasay was about lasted in 
kickoff returns, with the fewest number of touchbacks. So in the off
season Kasay lifted and got into Tae Kwan Doe and you could really tell
the difference.

BTW, da Bears really suck on offense. The bestest pass of the night was
Eric Kramer's toss to Eric Davis.

TTom

So TB meets face to face with Polian to explain this lack of respect
thing and supposedly the talks are making a bit of progress and then the
nexted thing you know it's right back to square one.

The single issue involved in the dispute is that TB and his idiot for
a_agent want about 6 million dollars in bonus while the team want to give
'em about 3 and make him earn the rest by rushing for 1000 yards and
things along that line.

So TB refused to budge and Polian pulled the offer off the table. For one
thing, since TB has missed all this practice and pre-season games, he
would most likely not be in the firsted real game which is one of the
incentives.

So, TB is most likely either gonna sit at home or else he'll do like
another Posten dupe, Tyrell Buckley and only sit out 50 days or so into
the season. Either way, this is a major step back for Carolina.

TTom

Today's continuing TB holdout saga has a nice wrinkle to it.

Apparently, Polian caught both TB and his scumbag agent Carl Posten off
guard when he withdrew the team's offer and put a new one on the table
for a 1-year league minimum of 130K or so.

Both are claiming they din't know that the previous 15 mil deal was the
final offer.

Posten revealed that he din't know if'n TB would sign this deal. Yo Carl,
how 'bout asking the guy.

In any case, talks might be back on after being off, after being on,
after being off.

TTom

Supposedly - I'll believe it when I see it - TB has signed and ended his
holdout.

Local reports are that the entire 20-some day holdout was over a grand
total of 200K over 7 years. TB spoke of wanting respect and apparently
the magic number for this is to average 1.8 mil instead of the 1.788
that the Panthers offered.

All other  terms and conditions were accepted by both parties. About half
the bonus is signing; about half is performance; by out by TB in year 7
if'n he has a couple of 1000 yard seasons; 12+ mil, total.

He's supposed to be at the game Saturday, watching, which I won't. 

TTom

> Local reports are that the entire 20-some day holdout was over a grand
> total of 200K over 7 years. TB spoke of wanting respect and apparently
> the magic number for this is to average 1.8 mil instead of the 1.788
> that the Panthers offered.
    
    I think TB finally woke up and realized that he was very close to 
    sitting out the season...
    
    glenn
    

ESPN reported that his scumbag agent, Posten, agreed to the contract and
then 90 minutes later reneged, all apparently without talking to TB.

One can only hope that TB gives Posten whatever money he is owed and bids
a fond farewell to that jerk.

Unlike other heavy handed agents like Falk and even Arn Tellem, Posten
brings nothing to his clients. And now the league knows that you caint
even bargain in good faith the lying sack of sh*t

In any case, I'm psyched cause all along it looked like TB's talent was
worth going for. Of course, I don't know if'n I'm gonna make him a top
FFL pick or anything just quite yet...

TTom

The Painters finished at the Mendoza line after wholloping the Gints,
34-7.

It was a case of too much defense by Carolina. They scored, set up scores
and otherwise made NY looked bad. The Giants' offensive line is pathetic
and fans can only hope that these aren't gonna be the starters. Dave
Brown spent most of the night running or getting knocked backwards.

Meanwhile, there's a new rocket in town, Raghib Ismail who was had from
the Raiders for a_undisclosed and future draft pick. The Painters are
really trying to add to team speed so Ismail is a natural. And a bargain
as the pick will be a middle round pick.

The Rocket will prolly return kickoffs, too.

TTom

Jints ARE bad.  Most prognistications I've seen peg them at the worst team
in football...  

The thing that is probably the most disappointing is Dave Brown.  While he's
talked and talked and talked about having improved, and about being a smarter
QB, he tossed up two INTs on Friday evening that are trademark, DUMB DAVE BROWN
INTs, similar to what he made constantly two years ago and last year.

The entire Free World can see the defenders there, yet numb-nuts throws the
ball.  Go figure.

But, this is George Young's guy.  This is the guy that George Young thought was
worth a supplemental first round pick......sheesh.

	Could be the NY/NJ Giants and Jets will be vying for
	1st round pick nexted year.



	billl

sorry to say this but:

	96 NY Jets > 96 NY Giants

As for Brown, the firsted interception that Sam Mills ran back for a TD
was caused by Tryone Poole who hit Brown just as he released it. Of
course, perhaps and more adroit and less inept QB mighta ducked, threw it
away or eat it...

Rodney Hampton is gonna feel real lonely thised year...

TTom

    yeah Tobin will take at least a year to clean up Buddy the Hut's mess.

and if'n they keep on keepin on like what they did with Hearst, he may
take even long if'n at all...

TTom

Jets are definitely better than the Giants this year.  Sad to say.

At least the Jets made some moves to try and improve the team......

      So did I see where someone stated the collie-boy offensive line is
    sad/sorry? 
    
    The year Reeves took over the giants I stated Reeves would screw it up
    and it sounds like I "told ya so".  Thats why Elway was da scrambler.
    
     Speaking of scramblers, when Brown goes down, Crandall Runningham is
    available I presume.  He would fit in with that scramble for your life
    offense.
    
      Tim

 Nope Randall has moved to the booth at TNT. SOunds like he's there to stay
 if they'll keep him. Ginats could show a breath of life by going after
 Erickson but I don't think he does windows in pumps......

 Sad to say but the Giants notesfile is like the newest Ghosttown on the NET..

 ;^)

mc

>      So did I see where someone stated the collie-boy offensive line is
>    sad/sorry? 

Truly patetic!~ The group that played agin the Painters passed sad and
sorry during warmups. Like I said, though, I don't know who was playing
versus who was hurt or that other famous Reeves technique, when you've
clinched your position he sits you down.

Meanwhile Tshimanga gets the starting nod. Capers said the decision was
based mostly on his efforts since he ended his holdout. Capers also let
it be known that Tshimanga is not at full stride so the question is how
many downs he plays. Fellow rookie Winslow Oliver will be the look at
that little Megget running back.

Rocket's gonna field kickoffs and come in a wide sets, joinging Mark
Carrier and Willie Green.

Wesley Walls clinched the TE position when the ink dried on his free
agent contract. Look for plenty of Kerry Collins to Walls passes. The
model, of course, is the Troy Aikman-Jay Novacek combo. 

What stands in the way of really upgrading the offense is the front line
that din't look to be great coming in and has lost three of the starters.
As late as the Gints game, Capers and his offensive staff were still
shuffling positions. If this line can be adequate, look out.

The defense will continue to carry the load.

TTom

There's not much on the Giants to be happy about these days.


	o George Young's vaunted QB, Dave Brown, the man heralded 
	  to be the Second Coming, sucks.  If he's not messing plays
	  up by making bonehead decisions, then he's messing them
	  up by underthrowing or overthrowing.  

	o George will tell you that he's got some good young lineman,
	  but if you watch them, they're just not getting the job
	  done.  

	o About the only thing that I'm pleased with is that the
	  Giants finally seem to have TWO decent cornerbacks, and
	  this guy Amani Toomer is supposedly the second coming
	  of Homer Jones.  


I'm figuring five, six wins will be a big deal.  I'm figuring Reeves is
gone, but at the END of the season.  If that happens, it opens another can
of worms.  George Young has made ONE decent coaching pick in 15 years.

If Reeves goes, I'd not be surprised to see George bring a Buddy Ryan in, 
or a Joe Walton, or some bizarre pick like that.  No, actually, he'd bring
in Mike Nolan, another no-name from inside the organization that he can
control.  After the debacle with Collie Boy, that'd be the most likely
scenario.


'Saw

       Nolan has respect of the players, from what I remember from his
    Bronco days, the problem is, he likes the "prevent you from winning"
    defense if your holding a lead.
    
       Tim

>       Nolan has respect of the players, from what I remember from his
>    Bronco days, the problem is, he likes the "prevent you from winning"
>    defense if your holding a lead.
    
That wouldn't hurt the Giants right now -- their defense already prevents
them from winning!

well he doesn't have the respect of the Giants' players. Might be that city
sophistication stuff.......\


mc

    
    >> About the only thing that I'm pleased with is that the
    >> Giants finally seem to have TWO decent cornerbacks, 

       Phillippi Sparks is more than decent. He's a Grade A stud.
       If the Giants as a whole weren't so mediocre he'd be much
       better known. With all of the ex-Giants that Tuna's brought
       to New England I was hoping that he'd make a play for Sparks
       when he was a free agent. But Sparks never played for Tuna
       so that wasn't to be.
    

Yes, Sparks is probably better than decent, but I'm a bit of a superstitious
Jints fan, and I was afraid if I said too much in his favor he'd disappoint
me.

And the main thrust of my point was that I cannot remember the last time the
Giants had TWO quality CBs.  


Tis a bright spot in an otherwise dismal outlook....

    > the last time the Giants had TWO quality CBs.  
    
    Tom Landry and Emlen Tunnell?

    I saw Sparks after his quick re-signing and told him how disappointed I
    was in him not going to New England.  

    Mr. Haas:
            Maybe you could answer a question for me. I noticed that
    Jammaal Anderson had 14 carries for 108 yards in Atlanta's loss to the
    Panthers this past weekend. Ironhead Heyward only has four rushes for 7
    yards. Did Anderson win the starting RB job form Heyward? Any info on
    this is greatly appreciated. Thanks,
    
    
    
    
                                  JS

    Heyward is nicked up (sprained left shoulder).  He is not scheduled to
    practice this week, and a decision as to whether or not he plays won't be
    made until game time (all this according to the Atlanta-Journal
    Constitution).

    And, in an show of fan support commensurate with the play exhibited so
    far, 30,000 tickets remain for this Sunday's game vs. the Vikings. 
    Looks like no TV for this weeks game (again).        

    UMDan

    Re -1
          Thanks, I appreciate the reply. Please keep me informed if you
    hear anything later in the week.
    
    
    
    
                                    JS

Wail, there I was in the middle of West By Gawd Virginee and all I could
pick up on the radio was a station in Cumberland, Md. So natch, they
carried the Ravens game which was a pretty good game excepting for the
fack that Tim Brown who I traded scored 2 TDs.

And do you know the grand total information that I got about the Painters
game was at half time when they recited a 10-6 score with no time
reference.

I did see a couple of updates on Sportscenter. Apparently John Kasay
kicked a bunch of Falcon backsides. And I liked the way they gradually
worked TB into the game, not. 26 carries aint exactly give 'im the ball a
couple of times and see what happens.

And of course, it was good to see my newest main main Wesley Walls score.

The nexted game is at New Orleans. About half the coaches and a handful
of players are ex-Saints. 

It'll be good to see how well the Painters play on the road.

TTom

    Falcons sip, and after only two years in existence the management of
    the Panthers has more of a long term vision for their team than the
    Falcons have ever had in their 30 year history.

    If I run hard enough I can probably catch up to the Panthers bandwagon. 
    Since none of the Falcons home games will be on the tube I guess
    I'll probably be watching the Panthers this year.

    UMDan

Ya gotta be impressed with them expansion teams.

The wins by the Jagwires and Painters were both impressive. But, in all
fairness to their humbled opponents, these games were in the friendly
confines of their home fields. Both the Steelers and the Falcons get a
chance to return the favor.

Considering the recent discussions of the fack that the locals get to
help pay for these pro franchises, it's a double whammy that sometimes
you don't even get to watch 'em on the tube.

TTom

    
    
        Tim Brown   >>>>>>   Rodney Hampton...

you could update this to"

        Tim Brown   >>>>>>   Doovers

The Painters win a close one, coming from behind, on the road, over
division opponent New Orleans, 22-20.

This was almost a replay of the firsted game: Kasay, Kasay, Kasay, Kasay,
and Kasay. 5 more FGs to go with the firsted 5.

New Orleans certainly tested the Painters more'n the Falcons, who looked
like they showed their true colors by not being able to beat the Moonless
Vikings at home. At the beginning of the game, Chrissie Everett looked
good, as the Painters defense looked slow and outta place.

But two plays turned the game around. Rookie Winslow Oliver returned a
punt for a TD. Oliver was drafted to be a David Meggett type big play
kinda guy and he paid off big time, showing some good moves and a whole
lot of speed.

The other key play was a Lamar Lathon sack that forced Everett to fumble.
Ever one in the league knows that if'n you can hit 'im hard, Chrissie
gets them happy feet and starts to throw early so he can bail out early.
He did not disappoint.

And along the way, the rookies are starting to shine. Tshimanga
Biakabutuka gained 74 yards on 21 carries despite the porous offensive
line. Second rounder Muhsin Muhammad had a spectacular debut after
missing the firsted game. 6 big catches for 96 big yards. Several of 'em
for firsted down. And of course, the TD by Oliver.

When you eke out a game by a FG, there's some down sides, too.
The obvious weak point of the whole team is the offensive line. Like a
lot of other teams, injuries have taken their toll. But, throughout the
game the Painters were pressured. They had no answer to the likes of
Wayne Martin and Renaldo Turnbull. Collins eventually had to leave the
game when he sprained a knee, which turned out to not be too serious.

Stever Burlein stepped in and did a_adequate job, engineering the drive
for the game winning FG.

In all fairness to ever one, a couple of those Kasay FGs shoulda been
TDs by the offense. At one point, the Painters had the ball inside the 1
and couldn't punch it in.

TTom

With their 22-20 victory over New Orleans, the second-year Carolina
Panthers reached the .500 mark for their franchise history at 9-9.
Technically, the Panthers wouldn't be the fastest expansion team in
league annals to reach the .500 mark. The Vikings remain the only NFL
expansion team to win its first game and the 1968 Bengals actually
started their first season at 2-1. However, after Sunday's victory,
Carolina became the fastest of the 10 expansion teams to reach the
.500 mark as a franchise following its first year. In fact, only four
teams, including the Bengals and the Vikings, have reached .500:

Team            Year to reach .500      Games           Record
Carolina        Second                  18              9-9
Miami           Seventh                 97              47-47-3
Cincinnati      Ninth                   113             56-56-1
Dallas          10th                    133             64-64-5
Minnesota       11th                    147             70-70-7

TTom

too bad the Vikes didn't do it in 15 less games..........

Amen!

But them Sowboys had that marvelous player Collie-Lovin'-Danny-Boy-Reeves....


Yeee-haw....Soooooo-eeeey...


Or sumpin' like dat!

>However, after Sunday's victory,
>Carolina became the fastest of the 10 expansion teams to reach the
>.500 mark as a franchise following its first year.

Those Charlotte sports pages are *filled* with valuable info!

      Ttom,
    
      That is a great accomplishment, but remember free agency is why the
    Panthers have done it so soon.  If they had to do it by draft and
    trades, then that record may be different.
    
      Again, its a great accomplishment non-the-less, plus those Panthers
    look like they will be a team to be recconed (sp?) in the near future.
    
      Tim

re: free agency.

Tim, ya gotta believe that things would be a lot diff'rent with the
Painters without free agency.

However, the powers completed the hat trick with the expansion players
they got and the rookies they've drafted.

Right now, there are several firsted and seconded year players in
significant roles, including Collins at QB, TB at RB, Tryone Poole at
corner, Winslow Oliver running back punts, Blake Brockermeyer on the
offensive line, and the newest star, wideout Muhsin Muhammad.

>Those Charlotte sports pages are *filled* with valuable info!

Sorry but the slur don't fit: http://www.usatoday.com.

TTom

Kerry Collins update:

It turns out that what was thought to be a mild spain of the knee has now
been diagnosed to be a mildly torn ligament.

The net effect of this is that Collins is 50-50 for starting the 49ers
game. Steve Beuerlein is practicing as if he'll be starting. A decision
will be made nexted week.

Capers revealed that Beuerlein woulda been the Painters firsted pick in
the expansion draft had they lost the coin flip with the Jagwires. The
Painter won and opted for the firsted pick in the college draft and took
Collins. Jacksonville took Beuerlein as the firsted expansion pick.

Now the Painters have 'em both.

And John Kasay has made it 2 in a row. He was again named Special Teams
Player of the Week for another 5-fer-5 FG showing, including 2 over 50
yards. The most significant improvement by Kasay is his kickoffs.
Touchbacks are way up and the opponents are averaging starting within
their own 20.

TTom

      Ttom,
    
      I agree that Capers & co. have done an excellent job getting the
    personel that they need to be competitive.
    
     Tim