Conference 7.286::digital

    
    Why do you ask?
    
    (I own one, but I'd have to get it altered to tone down the
    bell bottoms and wide lapels.)
    

    It might do you good to go buy a suit throw it on and visit a customer
    someday. You might learn something.

    I think the only engineers who will be required to wear a suit will be
    those who get laid off and have to go on job interviews.
    
    ... Bob
    

    I have a feeling that under the NEW AND IMPROVED DIGITAL janitors will
    be required to wear suits.  

    ... but, I'll still log in from home while in my underwear.
    
    Steve

    
    Gosh, Steve... you put on underwear when you log in from home??
    

<    It might do you good to go buy a suit throw it on and visit a customer
<    someday. You might learn something.


   This should be a requirement for ALL engineers, and engineering managers.
It establishes valuable "perspective".  I believe 2 weeks "active duty" EACH
year would benefit the company as a whole.  I've lived on both sides of this
fence. Generally (I know there are exceptions), those working in the engineering
centers have no idea what those in the field really have to do to sell or
support our products out here.

Al

    RE .7
    
    >>             -< 2 weeks active duty for engineers >-
    
    I don't know if I'd want it to be a requirement, but I think it would
    greatly benefit the company ... and for more than just engineers too.
    
    I'm a technical writer, and I just recently spent about a week and a
    half dealing directly with the customer for the project I'm working on. 
    I had to dress up too ... ;^) ... but it was worth it.  That direct
    interaction with the real user of my product (manuals) was one of the
    best learning experiences I've had since coming to Digital, not to
    mention that my productivity really went into high gear as a result
    of having a clearer understanding of how the product we're developing
    for them is going to be used in real life.
    
    It's an eye-opening experience, and I think a large percentage of
    Digital employees could benefit by a little more direct customer
    contact.
    
    ... Bob
    

    
    	If we all wear suits, how will we be abl to tell the differance
       between Engineering and Marketing????
    

re: .7, Al

><    It might do you good to go buy a suit throw it on and visit a customer
><    someday. You might learn something.
>
>   This should be a requirement for ALL engineers, and engineering managers.

I'll buy into it as soon as the product managers can prove that they've done
it first.

-Jack

    >>	If we all wear suits, how will we be abl to tell the differance
    >>   between Engineering and Marketing????
    
    Pocket Protectors.
    
    "jackin' the house", Bob

             <<< Note 2019.11 by POBOX::RILEY "I *am* the D.J." >>>

    >>	If we all wear suits, how will we be abl to tell the differance
    >>   between Engineering and Marketing????
    
    Marketing has adult supervision?
    
    Al
    

><    It might do you good to go buy a suit throw it on and visit a customer
><    someday. You might learn something.
>
>   This should be a requirement for ALL engineers, and engineering managers.


Agreed.

Customer contact is the one thing I most miss at Digital.  I'd be delighted
to spend two weeks' "active duty" in the field.  I think many other engineers
feel the same.

(Yeah, I'll even put on a tie.  The coat will cover the pocket protector.  :)

In fact, I have proposed the active-duty idea, and more than once.  But no
manager is measured on how well his engineers understand customers.  So lack
of vision and support from the top (i.e., funding) is the problem, not ties.

    
    Ohmygod, it just dawned on me that suits mean ties. That will spell
    disaster!!!
    
    Engineers know that ties cut off the circulation to your brain, and then
    you start thinking like a manager...
    

re: .9

>    	If we all wear suits, how will we be abl to tell the differance
>       between Engineering and Marketing????

Hard-core Marketing types always wear wing-tips.

Ray

re: marketeers

As always, by their silver tongues ye shall know them.
:^)
-Jack

Personally I read my mail while I'm air drying from a shower :-)

    If there are clothing allowances given to those who need to wear suits,
    why not?
    
    My previous employer in U.K. did just that to get all of us to keep our
    jeans at home and started to wear suits.

    no suits don't mean ties - they mean scraping your legs and encasing
    them in nylon.
    
    lt		;-)

    Back when I was in Field Servitude, in a very tropical area, I had a
    "new" boss, who insisted on ties. So I found a white tie (about 4"
    wide) and carefully wrapped it around the drum on the LP02 (That's a
    drum printer for you young pups...). I let it dry, and wore it to the
    next meeting with my boss. He took the point.
    
    
    q

    a bigger question is will engineers now be required to produce.
    
    and if you do get them dressed up can you take them anywhere and let
    them talk?

    
    Lynne, you ain't (haven't) hadta (had to) wea (wear) a noose (tie) much
    den (much then) ;').  () for the humor impaired.
    
    
    
    I've been thinking about Digital dress and all recently.  How about
    some kind of uniforms?  For techies and stuff, a pair of dress blues 
    and a golf type shirt with the "digital" logo on it.  For sales and
    other office personel, a pair of dress slacks and a button down shirt
    with the "digital" logo on it.  It may sound strange, but I think it
    may be something.
    
    Mike

Having moved from "internal" to the field during the COD process, I can give
some insights. I have always worked hard but in the field (as a Software
specialist doing VMS support and Performance Tuning for Customers) you never
seem to get a break like you did when an internal project was "finished". There
is always another customer around the corner. It is not unusual to get a 
voicemail giving directions to a customer site where you HAVE to be the next day
to work on a product that you've never seen before... So you leave the current 
customer at 5pm, drive back to the office, download the software (I got my CD
last week, so no more net copies!!!) and try it out so you don't look like a 
fool the next day. I really appreciate the CSC centers and they can be 
lifesavers when it turns out that the documentation never showed up...

As for engineers (or product managers) coming to the field for two weeks each
year... I would agree ONLY if they have a SPECIFIC project to work on. Our
customers have a business to run and do NOT exist to give our people field
experience. We had a major problem at a 9000 site because of the 20+ Digital
people that came through the customer site and annoyed the staff (often with
the same questions that had been asked a week before) as if the customer had
nothing better to do then answer our questions. ONE way that I would give my
wholehearted support to an engineer in the field program, would be with 
customers that have a problem with a product. We should get the engineer there
as soon as possible instead of wasting time pointing fingers as to where the
problem is. We had a problem with vt330's in multisession mode connected to 
decserver 300's at a site that had bought 400 vt330's and 30 decservers.
It took over a month to get enginnering involved because each group said it was
the other groups problem, if we could get the two groups together at the start
and SOLVE the problem, we could avoid some serious customer satisfaction
problems.

I am not saying that this would be easy (every salesman in the world would
want the chief ALPHA engineer at THIER site the day after the first ALPHA
workstation crash), but we must always remember that computers SUPPORT the
customers business and the customer only notices the computer when it doesn't
work.
Dan Buckley, CT eis

    
    Speaking of those who disdain wearing ties....
    
    I remember a few years ago a 'marketing-type' as you all call them,
    from Spitbrook, who would show up at DECworld wearing what looked like
    a scarf, wrapped loosely about his neck (A Cravat, I think they're
    called, but the dictionary definition is 'necktie').
    
    Anyway, this guy always looked totally out of place among all the
    regular 'ties', (half of which were properly knotted in a
    full-windsor...fyi...even Peter Jennings doesn't know how to tie a tie
    properly)
    
    He seemed to always be the last holdout in the 'won't catch me dead in
    a tie' crowd.  Always looked like he was about to don a smoking jacket,
    sit in a cushy chair, and introduce a late movie on Public TV.
    
    Look at it this way, neckties may cut off the circulation, prompting
    excessive leanings toward management, but at least you can hang
    yourself with it when they throw you in a jail cell.  (Just buy the
    real thick ones).
    

A new tune on the DEC hit parade?



57 suits and nothin' to wear

    What are pocket protectors?
    
    Lisa.
    

>    What are pocket protectors?

Flat plastic "pouch" which fits in a shirt breast pocket with a plastic flap
which hangs over the front edge of the pocket. When you place a pen in the
pocket protector, rather than the pocket, the clip on the pen grabs the
flap/pouch rather than the pocket, and ink/pencil-lead, etc. don't have
as much of an opportunity to stain your shirt pocket from inside the pouch.

(Not many engineers really use them. We prefer to hang our pens from our ears.)

-Jack

<<< Note 2019.27 by XNOGOV::LISA "Give quiche a chance" >>>

>    What are pocket protectors?
>    
>    Lisa.
    
A plastic 'pocket' of its own in which you can place pens, pencils,
sliderules(*), etc. and then place in your shirt pocket. The stuff all
clips to your pocket protector instead of your shirt. Sometimes the
pocket protector's flap that hangs over your pocket has some kind of
inscription or logo on it. I once had one with a Digital logo on it...
dunno where it is now.

Purportedly, use of a 'pocket protector' gives you immediate nerd status.

Lee

(*) Before the advent of electronic calculators there were sliderules. A
miniature one would fin in the pocket protector giving you elite-nerd
status (nerdus eliteus)?

	One feature of pocket protectors is that they are properly
	obtained free of charge, from someone trying to sell something.
	As a result of this, another feature is that they are decorated
	wit advertising slogans/logos etc, of the company which provided them.

						Tom_K

Real engineers, in 1992, use palmtops.  (Pen, what's a pen?)  :-)

   Gary

PS, before you ask, a palmtop is a computer about the size and shape of
a long wallet or oversized checkbook.  Some are full-fledged PC's,
running MS-DOS; others are preprogrammed, with useful features, and
extensible with preprogrammed cards.

re: .24

More seriously, how do you propose that engineers learn about customer
problems?
There are few substitutes for actually going, seeing, and working with
customers.  Granted, such contacts need to be managed.  In the example
you site, the account people should have had the right to say "you come
this date (so that everyone is here at once) or not at all," or else
partition the group so that it didn't interfere with the customer.  

Most customers I've known are delighted to have a chance to gripe
directly at the engineers and engineering managers.  It just needs to
be set up in such a way that both sides get benefits from the visit.

   Gary

    
    Re:  pocket protectors
    
    A short-sleeve white dress shirt with a pocket protector has become the
    leading symbol of nerddom (see Revenge of the Nerds and Back to the Future).
    
    I remember joking with a DECUS counterpart about putting together a
    "GEEKUS" freebie consisting of:
    
    o  pocket protector
    o  mini slide rule
    o  pen
    o  pencil
    o  white tape, with instructions for applying to bridge of glasses
    
    Our chief concern was that none of the DECUS folks would get the joke.
    
    (And we'd already been beaten to the propeller beanies...)
    

    re: .33
    
>    I remember joking with a DECUS counterpart about putting together a
>    "GEEKUS" freebie consisting of:
    
>    o  mini slide rule
    
    You'd probably have a hard time finding slide rules these days.
    If you know of a source, please let me know!
    

    Does anybody under the age of 40 even know how to *use* a slide rule?

    re .34
    
    I have three, but you can't have any.
    
    Tony

     re: .23
    
    Hey, why not make us wear hats with a red star on the forehead?  How
    about brown shirts?  Then, we'll all goose-step ;-)
    
    -Ed

   >>   <<< Note 2019.32 by TOKLAS::feldman "Larix decidua, var. decify" >>>
>> More seriously, how do you propose that engineers learn about customer
>> problems?
    
    Visit the CSC that supports your product, and sit in on calls. I
    guarantee within 30 minutes you'll have discovered all the little
    things that cumulatively frustrate customers.
    
    Simon

>    Does anybody under the age of 40 even know how to *use* a slide rule?
    
    I do. I think the cut off age is 35 though and I'm over that. :-)
    
    			Alfred

Re: .35

 I'm 33, and yes, I know how to use one.  However, I readily admit, I cannot
survive w/o my workstation.

       <<< Note 2019.35 by VERGA::WELLCOME "Steve Wellcome PKO3-1/D30" >>>

>    Does anybody under the age of 40 even know how to *use* a slide rule?
    
    Yup.  I have 3 that my grandfather gave to me when I was a kid.
    
    Mark_who's_closer_to_30_than_40.

re:.38

>    Visit the CSC that supports your product, and sit in on calls. I
>    guarantee within 30 minutes you'll have discovered all the little
>    things that cumulatively frustrate customers.

That certainly helps, but it's still limited.  It will contribute
greatly to improving the quality of our existing products.  It will
contribute somewhat to understanding customer problems (i. e., the
reason they're using computers in the first place, which generally has
little to do with flaws in our products), but it will probably miss
many opportunities for new approaches, new problems to solve, and new
products to sell.

I believe we need to improve the connections between engineering, the
rest of the corporation (marketing, support centers, sales, sales
support), and customers.  Visiting the CSC's is a good idea; so is
visiting customers.

   Gary

    re: .38, .42
    
    I did that, only I did it for two weeks instead of 30 minutes.  That
    experience convinced me that Engineering could benefit greatly from
    frequent contact with customers.  I, too, have been trying to push that
    idea, and also with no success.
        John Sauter

		If suits are coming, will golf be far behind?

    
    Re : .-1
    
    Or will the current Sales/Service Rep is going to have their Ford
    Taurus fleet sustitute by "Porche" ?
    
    Follow the leader !!!
    
    Michael..

    ref .34
    HARVARD COOP @ HARVARD SQUARE... and yes they do come in handy 
    if your batteries run out on your laptop.

    re: customer visits
    I have worked at a large government site for the last five years, and 
    about 3 years ago, we had face to face meetings between a group from 
    engineering and the customer.  One of the results of this and similar
    meetings was many of the features in Rdb 4.1.  It really can work, but
    everyone has to buy in or it will fail. FWIW.

    Re: Slide Rules.
    
    I hang my Post (Ivory covered Bamboo no less) in it's leather case on
    the wall of my cubie as a reminder of the "good old days".
    
    One day, honestly a co-worker (not a tekie) walked in and said "What is
    that? A bayonet?"
    
    I knew then that a generation must have passed.
    
    By the way he still blushes when ribbed about it.
    
    Len
    

    RE: Ties. Generally speaking ties don't cut off the circulation. A
    buttoned shirt that is too small does. If you feel constricted around
    the neck with a tie on it's probably because you were not sharp enough
    to buy a shirt that fits.
    
    	Alfred tcu

    whats a slide-rule.... ?
                  
    Puzzled of England...

Re: .52

>    whats a slide-rule.... ?
                  
Something akin to an abacus little one.....

:-)


Re: .lots-back

I wore ties for 10 years, then I had to wear nylons....ties suddenly didn't
seem so bad after all...I *DEFINITELY* prefer ties to nylons and high heels...

Re: slide rules

The spirit of the slide rule lives on in the aviation community. Many pilots
use a circular-type slide rule (officially known as an E6B) for various 
calculations related to flying. I myself use one of these, finding them more 
reliable than calculators that have batteries and easier to use in turbulance, 
when trying to mash the right button can be a problem.

						- Bluejay Adametz, CFII

    Re .34:
    
    The Computer Museum has several sizes of straight slide rule and one
    size of circular slide rule for sale.
    
    
    				-- edp

    re: .52
    
    What's a slide rule?  Assuming you are serious and actually don't know:
    
    As .53 says, akin to an abacus, except a slide rule does multiplication 
    and division (and, depending on the scales it has, possibly squares, 
    square roots, cubes, cube roots, trig functions, and logrithms) instead 
    of an abacus's addition and subtraction.

Hardware Engineers use pocket protectors

Software engineers use keyboard condoms

    
    Again for the seriously slide-rule-challenged...
    
    A simple multiplication slide rule is two pieces of ruler-type material
    that slide against each other. On each is printed the logarithmic
    values of 1 thru 10 in a linear manner. They are kept together by a
    clear plastic collar, on which is scribed a thin vertical line that
    crosses the two log scales. Working on the principle that you can multiply
    two numbers by adding their logs, the slide rule allows you to add the
    linear "length"  of two numbers on a logarithmic scale to point to their
    product on the same scale.
    
    The process is as follows: Slide the upper scale so that the "1" (left
    end of the scale) is directly over the multiplicand on the bottom scale.
    Slide the plastic collar so that the vertical line is directly over the
    multiplier on the top scale. The vertical line is now also over the
    product, again on the bottom scale. You have used the sliding scale and
    the collar to add the logarithmic "length" of the two numbers, to point
    to their product.
    
    You can plot the log values of 1-10 on two strips of graph paper to
    reproduce this experiment. (Note: cutting two strips from a sheet of
    log graph paper is considered cheating for the purposes of conceptual
    education, but will produce more accurate results.)
    
    (When I learned about slide rules, a hand calculator that was
    approximately the size and thickness of a pack of playing cards, that
    did +, -, * and /, and whose LED display ate through 9v. batteries
    like candy, could be had for about $100.)
    

    Anent slide rules:
    
    There asre still slide rules in daily use: they're called "flight
    computers" and are used for aerial navigation by polits who don't trust
    batteries.
    
    These, and some others, are circular.  Some circular slide rules have
    fixed scales and transparent arms with lines scribed into them to set
    up the appropriate ratios.
    
    All slide rules work on the basis that an algebraic addition of two
    logarithms results in a multiplication (and subtraction between two
    results in a division).  Some sliderules have secondary and tertiary
    scales to show squarwes, cubes, etc.  Some circular slide rules have
    spiral scales for increased number of significant figures ("A slide
    rule is a device where you multiply 2 by 3 and get 5.99," a math
    teacher of my acquaintence once said).  There have been cylinderical
    slide rules, too.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    Sheesh....in the current environment I thought EVERYBODY had gone back
    and reviewed the slide rule.
    
    SLIDE RULE - When your team's below .500 and more games out of first
    place than there are left in the season, every base tag is a SLIDE.
    Else you may find you're on waivers. (see also: Efforts not Results
    Rule - ERR)
    
    J.B.
    proud owner of a Post Versalog and pocket "Baby" Versalog 

0.02p

>> There have been cylinderical slide rules, too.

I own an OTIS King cylindrical. 
Effective length of scale > 1 metre I recall.
Wonderful, wouldn't part with it ever.
Nostalga, more than just a thing of the past.
It's just like telling the children about sun-dials.

Chris

re .56

It's possible to do multiplication, division and take square roots on an abacus.
(I don't remember the details though.)

Rich

   My first 3 weeks in high school chemistry had nothing to do with
   chemistry.  Our teacher took that time to teach us how to use a slide
   rule.  My Pickett is a wall decoration at home.
   
   Another good chunk of time in chemistry was spent learning how to
   set up problems so that a minimum number of movements had to be done
   on the slide rule.

    When I was in my first year of Mechanical Engineering at New Mexico
    State, we transitioned from slide rules to calculators ....1971-72.
    
    One semester (fall '71) we were extensively trained in slide rule 
    theory....you could use calculators, but not on tests, since not every
    one could afford this new gadget (or as Stimpy calls it, 'this space
    time continuum thingy). 
    
    I think they were about $225 for a scientific TI.  
    
    The next semester (spring '72) you could use a
    calculator on tests.  The following semester (fall '72) you were
    required to have a calculator.
    
    

    I remember doing Multiplication and Division on an Abacus.  Essentially
    repeated additions and subtractions.  Worked best when you had a good
    size Chinese Abacus.  The little Japanese Abacus (I know that either
    the Chinese version or the Japanese version has a different name, but I
    can't remember what it was) was too small.  I was taught to put the
    multiplicand in the left side and to run off the beads as I added the
    multiplier into the product on the right side.
    
    Though smaller, I found the Japanese Abacii easier to use because the
    beads were shaped with a sharp ridge on the outer rim as opposed to the
    Chinese version which had round beads.   My kids just found my old
    Chinese Abacus, so I guess I get to teach them how to use it.  Can't
    find any of my slide rules, so that exercise in Ancient history will
    wait.
    
    Larry
    
    I won't tell you how long ago it was that I learned how to use an
    abacus.
    
    

    Re .65 (Larry):
    
    > .................... The little Japanese Abacus (I know that either
    >the Chinese version or the Japanese version has a different name, but I
    >can't remember what it was) was too small. ...
    
    The Japanese version is called a Soroban.  It is also more streamlined
    than the Chinese version.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    To continue the rathole...

    >When I was in my first year of Mechanical Engineering at New Mexico
    >State, we transitioned from slide rules to calculators ....1971-72.
    
    >One semester (fall '71) we were extensively trained in slide rule 
    >theory....you could use calculators, but not on tests, since not every
    >one could afford this new gadget (or as Stimpy calls it, 'this space
    >time continuum thingy). 
    
    >I think they were about $225 for a scientific TI.  
   
    >The next semester (spring '72) you could use a
    >calculator on tests.  The following semester (fall '72) you were
    >required to have a calculator.
    
    
    I worked for Hewlett-Packard 1971-73. I assembled, packaged and
    shipped the first hand-held calculator, the HP-35, affectionately
    known as the electronic sliderule.

    They sold for $396.00. Today, you can get the equivalent for ~$15.

    I clearly remember the controversy about classroom use.  My brother
    was a calculus major at Purdue Univ. and the first in his class to get
    an HP-35 (compliments of me). He took a lot of heat because or it.

    Ironically, the biggest revenue generator was sales from college
    bookstores.  HP Marketing really debated about the bookstore approach
    because they didn't believe that students would have the $400.00
    to fork out for the controversial calculator.  Luckily they went 
    ahead with their plan and made a killing in that market. 
    
    The first week the calculator was in production, we shipped 20. In
    one years time, we were shipping 1500 per shift, with three shifts
    working around the clock and a 6 month backlog.  Pretty incredible.
    
    Jodi-

    More calc trivia....
    
    remember the "Bomar Brain"?  That was an early four-banger.  I had the
    first calculator in my high school.  It caused quite a stir about
    having an unfair advantage.
    
    "jackin' the house", Bob
    
    
    
    

    Since we are soo deep into this rat-hole.....
    
    Many years ago, I lost my older brothers slide-rule, and he won't let
    me forget it.  I am in Maryland, and I am looking to buy a replacement
    slide-rule (mail-order, or whatever it takes).  Does any one know where
    I might find one?
    
    Thanks,
    Mark

>>      <<< Note 2019.69 by PRIMES::ZIMMERMANN "Mark @ COP, dtn 339-5318" >>>
>>                           -< wanted, 1 slide-rule >-
>>
>>    Since we are soo deep into this rat-hole.....
>>    
>>    Many years ago, I lost my older brothers slide-rule, and he won't let
>>    me forget it.  I am in Maryland, and I am looking to buy a replacement
>>    slide-rule (mail-order, or whatever it takes).  Does any one know where
>>    I might find one?
>>    
>>    Thanks,
>>    Mark
>>
    Mark,
    	You might try a College or University bookstore.
    Jim Morton

>>      <<< Note 2019.69 by PRIMES::ZIMMERMANN "Mark @ COP, dtn 339-5318" >>>
>>                           -< wanted, 1 slide-rule >-
>>
>>    Since we are soo deep into this rat-hole.....
>>    
>>    Many years ago, I lost my older brothers slide-rule, and he won't let
>>    me forget it.  I am in Maryland, and I am looking to buy a replacement
>>    slide-rule (mail-order, or whatever it takes).  Does any one know where
>>    I might find one?
>>    
>>    Thanks,
>>    Mark
>>
>    Mark,
>    	You might try a College or University bookstore.
>    Jim Morton

...or print the following stuff on a postscript printer, get a sharp knife
and some glue and there you are!

(boy, am I really _that_ old already to call you 'youngsters' ?!)

----cut here-------
%!
% slide_rule.ps
%
% A. Kinsman 7/31/91  (C) Copyright 1991, all rights reserved
%
% So the future generations will understand how we handled
% engineering problems without pocket calculators.
%
% Such a primitive tool to manufacture with such a sophisticated
% computer.
%
% for on glass debugging clear screen uncomment next line
%clippath 1 setgray fill 0 setgray
/Helvetica findfont 10 scalefont setfont

0 setlinewidth
/inch {72 mul} def
/scale-len   10 def          % length of scales in inches

/hash-height 0 def
/hash-incr   0 def
/tag-it      0 def
/raise-5     0 def
/str 20 string def

/tags ( 123456789) def       % zeros turn into blanks

% flip axis  used for B&D scales
/flip-axis {
1 -1 scale
} def

% flip font  used for B&D scales
/flip-font {
currentfont [ 1 0 0 -1 0 0 ] makefont setfont
} def

% flip both  used for B&D scales
/flip-it {
flip-axis
flip-font
} def

%  for log scales
%  ( start increment end hash-height hash-incr tag-it raise-5  -- )
/hash-it 
{ 
         /raise-5     exch def
         /tag-it      exch def
         /hash-incr   exch def
         /hash-height exch def
         {
                                % draw vertical hash
         dup log scale-len mul inch 0 moveto 0 hash-height inch rlineto

                                % extend 5 lines up a bit
             raise-5 1 eq
                {
                        dup 1000 mul cvi 1 add          % round up a bit
                        str cvs
                        hash-incr log cvi 1 getinterval %      ( asc-digit -- )
                        (5) eq { 0 hash-height .3 mul inch rlineto
                               }
                               if
                }
                if
                                % add number string   
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showpage

    This note started with discussions on suits, but ended up on the
    slide-rules and abacus.  Amazing!

<    slide-rule (mail-order, or whatever it takes).  Does any one know where
<    I might find one?
    
   Any decent sized Flea-market or big yard-sale always has at least one
slide-rule (usually for under $5.)

Al

    
    	The rathole about slide rules which has taken up space and
    	time in this particular topic is perhaps one of the finest
    	examples of why engineers should never go on customer calls.
    
    	People ignored the real purpose and began riding their own
    	favorite hobby horses.  There's a world out there beyond
    	bits and bytes.
    
    	The fear that a tech-type would scuttle the greater purpose
    	a customer visit with myopic technical inanities is why, on
    	the whole, they should just stay at home with their work-
    	stations.
    
    	Most customer calls involve business solutions and business
    	relationships not enigineering seminars.  Leave it as such.

    Re .75 (Ralph):
    
    Yes, you're right.
    
    It's silly talking about stupid trivia like slide  rules when the
    burning topic of the basenote is:
    
        .0>Will engineers soon be required to wear suits to work?
	.0>I don't even own one.

    It's really important to stick to the critical issues. :-D
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

re: .75

I hope that you don't use this discussion as a reason for keeping
engineers away from customers.  What engineers do behing closed doors,
among their peers, is no indication of their ability to do their jobs
when meeting with customers.

  Gary

>    Any decent sized Flea-market or big yard-sale always has at least one
>   slide-rule (usually for under $5.)

The last I saw of slide rules was in the late seventies in a college bookstore.
All the slide rules were in a large bin priced to go...    10 Cents.

		Bob Cohen

re .75 <Ralph>

I brought up the Soroban (Thanks Steve) yet my job is to
be in front of customers.  Now I don't discuss the merits
of the Soroban against the Abacus when they are interested
in why they should by Rdb over {Oracle, Sybase, Ingres, ...}.

Larry

    What about our Birthday suits......;)
    

    Does anyone know what happened to K&E?  Did they go down the tubes with
    slide rules?
    

    Re .82:
    
    I believe K&E makes, among other things, graph paper, including
    straight cartesian, polar, and both semilog and log-log varieties.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

re .69, source for slide rules:
   
      Not really a source for (normal) slide rules, but: I happened to
      skip over the 1992 Reference catalog for optics, science and
      education (#12N1) of ES Edmund Scientific. In there is a circular
      (!) slide rule:

      	"Authentic WWII Bombers Calculator"
      	Article # A36,776
      	Price is $15.95 (+handling charge)

		Edmund Scientific Company
		101 E. Gloucester Pike
		Barrington, NJ 08007-1380

		Order by phone: 1-609-573-6250
				1-609-547-3488
		      by FAX: 	1-609-573-6295

      		For general product information: 1-609-573-6879

    	I still have my trusty PICKETT slide rule along with the
    instructions and carying case. (You know, the one that will allow you
    to carry your slide rule from your belt). I don't know if Pickett is
    still in business, but their old address is listed below. You might
    drop them a note and see what they say.
    
    		Pickett, Inc.
    		Pickett Square
    		Santa Barbara, California
    					93102
    
    							Good Luck 

    And while we are continuing to discuss something that has nothing to do
    with business suits :-)
    
    I have a small circular slide ruler that had printed around the middle
    the following message:
    
    " digital   solve problems with a pdp-11"
    
    I got it many years ago when I was in college as a give-away from DEC

re: .75
    
>    	examples of why engineers should never go on customer calls.
                                         ^^^^^
Wrong.  And in general, generalities are very dangerous.
    
>    	The fear that a tech-type would scuttle the greater purpose
>    	a customer visit with myopic technical inanities is why, on
>    	the whole, they should just stay at home with their work-
>    	stations.
    
>    	Most customer calls involve business solutions and business
>    	relationships not enigineering seminars.  Leave it as such.

I would say all sales involve technical solutions to business needs 
(exceptions would be management consulting, etc., where you only alter the way 
they accomplish the work, without any technology component to the solution).

I assume you aren't in sales.  If you are selling to the CEO or CFO, your 
comments are correct.  When selling to the end user or CIO, I think you miss 
the mark.  You want to generate enthusiasm at all levels.  Marketing, sales
and sales management should be doing the selling at the CEO and CFO level, and
sometimes the CIO level.  "Technical inanities" are what the end users, and
sometimes CIO, want to know about.  They can be very myopic, especially when 
you are trying to tell them they should be doing their job differently.

Steve
DS (formerly EIS)
(thanks Mike)

    i think engineers should talk to customers to know the problem,
    because without knowing customer problem it is hard to solve it.

    but sometimes customers dont know what they want too, and engineers
    will tell them what they need to solve their problem.

    i think there should be regular meetings set up between engineers
    and customers.

    but any engineer who comes in with a slide ruler will not be allowed
    to the meetings.

    /nasser
    a software engineer (i think)

		Suits vs. slide rules, in a fight to the death!

	    Boy, does that say something about DEC culture, or what?

    
    It might be interesting to investigate what happened to companies
    who made slide rules, but did not transition to calculators.
    
    Glenn (who thinks that this thread is hilarious and even topical
           in a bizarre and ironic way)

On a resume:

	Can perform calculations without batteries........

    It is frightening that a topic like "Suits?" would have 90+ replies
    in it.  If engineering has nothing better to do that worry about
    what they have to wear to work, maybe that is the root of our problems
    at Digital...

    re .92:
    
    Don't attribute to too much free time what can be explained by
    terminal frustration...
    

Since there is so much interest in slide rulers has anyone considered
replacing the DECwindows MOTIF calculator application with a 
DECwindows MOTIF Slide Ruler application?  :-)

    Right.  And as you use your mouse to move the slide or the curser, the
    numbers being slid over appear in a window so you can know precisely
    when to stop.  The higher the mouse is, the higher the precision shown
    in the windows and the slower the numbers move with each mouse
    movement.  That combined with a multiple precision package will let the
    digitally-produced analog slide rule have even more precision than
    standard calculators.

    Now all you need is a method to move the mouse automatically and make
    decisions based on the resulting numbers.  I'm sure the DCL gurus can
    handle that with ease.

...reminds me of the MIT student who wrote a calculator program using Roman
numerals. The documentation, of course, was in Latin.

    Actually, while I was at MIT, there was a Roman numeral calculator
    program on the PDP-1.  But documentation?  In Latin?  At MIT?  You
    gotta be kidding!  Harvard maybe, but not MIT!

    ref .-1
    When I was reading Gauss biography, I learned he wrote his big works
    in Latin, even though he did not have to, he could have done it
    in German, and that would have made it more accessible and more
    understandable, since Latin is apparently is a more terse language, but he 
    considered Latin to be the 'real' scientific language, and it showed the 
    author to be a true scientist. not that Gauss needed to prove himself more.
    but that was 150 years ago.

    I bet that someone at MIT who wrote that documentation did it for 
    similar reasons..

    Re: .-1
    
    I don't think you know much about MIT.	:-)

There's a supermarket in Cambridge that's frequented by both Harvard and MIT
students.  A student-type was standing in the express line with many more items
than were allowed.  Quipped one observer to another, "He's either a Harvard
student who can't count or an MIT student who can't read."

    If you don't mind,....  Somewhere in Spitbrook there is a former
    colleague of mine, BS from MIT in Math and Humanities, Master's in
    Latin and Greek from BC, PhD in Philosophy from BC as well.  Although
    he graduated from MIT some years before I did, he and I have worked
    together and enjoyed occasional communication in Latin together (his
    far superior to mine, of course).  
    
    Among the eccentricities of MIT students may (no doubt) be found an
    interest in languages (classical--e.g., Latin or COBOL--or modern--
    z.B., German or C++ --or both--Hebrew, Welsh, FORTRAN...).  ;^)

    Re: .-1
    
    Yes, there are exceptions.

    Reminds me of the old line....
    
    You can always tell a MIT student,
    but  
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    You can't tell him much!
    
    
    
    Marc H.

    
    My father has a better saying:
    
    I can make something "Idiot-Proof" but I can't make it "PhD-Proof"
    
    I suppose you could say the same of MBAs.....
    
    -Ed
    

    Back to suits!!
    
    If our customers or clients wear business suits, why shouldn't Deccies?
    
    Shouldn't Digital look professional to the customer who it is trying to
    serve?
    
    A Question to ponder. 
    
    
    

    .106
         
    >If our customers or clients wear business suits, why shouldn't Deccies?
    >Shouldn't Digital look professional to the customer who it is trying to
    >serve?
    >A Question to ponder. 
    
    I pondered it, but I thought that is the way it is allready?

    If you are in contact with a customer , you should dress up nice, none
    of the jeans clothing, and casual attire that Engineers are famous
    for. 

    I know when I worked for EDS , I worked in an account where every week we 
    had a meeting with the DEC local sales/marketing/support people, every week
    we sat down over donuts and coffee, and talked about support issues, a
    kind of 'how things going' type of meeting, and to see if there are any
    problems in our account that DEC needs paying attention to.

    Every DECeee who came to the meeting was well charmed, especially the DEC 
    local unit support manager, my memory about him is that he was extra-well 
    dressed, and very sharp looking, and a big and fresh flower always 
    illuminating  his jacket in a delightful manner, his perfume progated
    the room and filled the atomosphere, I was highly impreesed with theses 
    people.

    /Nasser
    I spelled checked
    

    It's simply etiquette to show up well-dressed in front of customers.
    Now, think about what this means, - what means well-dressed is
    relative, and who are your customers?

    Can't hold back on this one: what difference does it make if you're
    wearing a suit or jeans? You're still getting paid x and still capable
    of doing y, probably even more productive in jeans than in a suit. All
    the suits I see sit around and chat about how to fix the problem, then
    the jeans (now wearing a suit) come in to fix it and first thing they
    ask? "Mind if I take off my coat?"  My answer: "Sure, might as well
    take off the tie, too.  I wouldn't want that getting caught in
    something."  You think suits mean anything in 1) a third world country?
    or even 2) a rival industrialized nation?  1) = probably reminds them
    off how oppressed they are and 2) = some surreal game centered around
    "his/her suit is better than mind; guess I have to charge more for the 
    finished goods."  (mostly hypothetical, but best guess is probably
    pretty close to actual reasons, IMO.  Afterall, it is friday, right?)
    
    Slash the suits and enter a world based on quality and expertise, not
    appearance.
    
    Reg.

    A good rule of thumb is: When in Rome, wear what the Romans are
    wearing. This isn't always practical. In field work it's not uncommon
    to go to a bank in the AM, in your suit, and then have to go to
    an oil refinery in the afternoon, where all the customer's folks
    are wearing "work clothes". Then you feel out of place, ask if you
    can take off your coat, and some smart ass says, "Why don't you take
    off your tie too", because he's made uncomfortable by the unspoken
    message you suit is sending him. Unfortunate, but sometimes
    unavoidable.
    
    You only get one chance to make a first impression. The sad
    thing is that with some customers who are unable to determine
    your level of technical expertise, this is your only chance to
    make any impression. I would love to be able to go to any
    customer's site in comfortable clothes (jeans and T-shirt?), and
    have them be dazzled by my performance. In reality, the message
    most customers receive from you when your dressed in a comfortable
    manner, and they're in penguine suits is: 1) "I'm a slob, and I don't
    care what you think of me, my company, of the appearance of your
    business establishment", or 2) "I'm a freakin' guru on this stuff, and
    you're a dunce, so I can dress anyway I please and you can just get
    stuffed!". Either impression is undesireable. Only a very few will
    really think, "That persons dress is not a issue, performance is
    all that matters".
    

    I have been working in sales support for about 7-8 years.  Before that
    I was a delivery specialist.  The common rule of thumb was to dress in
    the same manner that the customer dressed.  If they wore jeans, you
    wore jeans.  If they wore three-piece suits, you wore three-piece
    suits.  University people feel more comfortable if you show up wearing
    a brown suit instead of a navy or pin-stripe or three-piece suit.  Or
    you could wear slacks and jacket anytime to universities.  If I am
    going to talk with technical folks, I dress a little more laxly than if
    I am going to meet witht the president of a company.  It all depends.
    
    In general, my rule of thumb is to dress equal or one notch higher. 
    Too much higher and it makes them feel uncomfortable.  Too much lower
    and they think you don't care.  (I have also been on the other side of
    the table, and I have a lot of friends on the other side of the table,
    so this is not just a digit talking.)
    
    A great deal of it boils down to common courtesy to your customers.  To
    imply that those that wear jeans are the only ones that can solve
    problems is being rather haughty.  When I was a customer, we had a
    `jeans' come in to work with us.  We asked him to leave because we were
    training him (that is, he knew less than we did).  A `suit' came in and
    the problems started to get solved.  I have also had the other
    situation.
    
    tgc

re .107:

>   illuminating  his jacket in a delightful manner, his perfume progated
								 ^^^^^^^^
>   the room and filled the atomosphere, I was highly impreesed with theses 
						      ^^^^^^^^^
>   people.
>
>   /Nasser
>   I spelled checked
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Are you sure?

On the topic, I've heard of cases where an engineer dressed up to meet
a customer, and the customer didn't believe that he was really an engineer.
I think engineers should wear engineer-type clothes -- pocket protectors
and taped glasses should be mandatory.

    ref .112

>re .107:
>>   illuminating  his jacket in a delightful manner, his perfume progated
								 ^^^^^^^^
>>   the room and filled the atomosphere, I was highly impreesed with theses 
						      ^^^^^^^^^
>>   people.
>>
>>   /Nasser
>>   I spelled checked
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Are you sure?

    I'll QAR it immediately !
    Thank you,
    /Nasser
    I spelled checked

    re: spelling
    
    It's just poetic licentiousness.  ;-)
    
    DAR

    Nasser,
      You really should check your personable dictionary.
    Ken
    

    Some one mailed me mail today saying I was rude for intentionally making
    spelling errors, he must referred to the note I wrote few back .

    this person who send me the mail, could at least have asked before 
    offending me with his mail, and should have given me the chance to 
    explain what happened.

    I cant believe anyone in his right mind would say that, I have been
    double checking for quite a while now, and I started to say that too at 
    the end, what must have happened in this note forth mentioned is that I 
    must have spelled checked it, then last minute did some changes and forgot
    to spell check it last minute, but I have already written "I spelled
    checked" at the end.

    Why should I be screamed at for this? Why do people pick on me when
    I make one or two stupid mistakes in writing while many other
    do make same spelling errors and no one says anything?

    When I wrote "I'll QAR it", I was kidding, we are QARing thing all the time
    here , it is an Engineering joke in a way, I did not mean to trap someone 
    into some evil trap that I have so masterfully set up and been planing
    for for days. 

    Well, that is all have to say, if anyone want to scream more at me
    go ahead. this is your chance.

    /Nasser
    I spell checked this

RE         <<< Note 2019.116 by STAR::ABBASI "i^(-i) = SQRT(exp(PI))" >>>

  >  Well, that is all have to say, if anyone want to scream more at me
  >  go ahead. this is your chance.

    Hi Nasser

  AAAAYYYYYYYYYYIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks, I feel much better now :-)

Regards
Barry

    
    re .116
    
    Nasser,
    Having followed your entries for some time, I feel the need to
    comment.*
    
    I was one of many who reading your entries for the first time developed
    an instant mental picture of the author. Only in subsequent replies
    from some of your co-workers did I begin to get the idea that my
    mistake was not my doing, but part of an orchestrated effort. Your
    style and insightfullness is refreshing. Your wit most convoluted.
    Alas, you are not on the proper distribution lists.
    
    Any objections or complaints you receive are really not directed at you
    but, at your initials. In Memorandum of Understanding #3514-10 (which I
    can't quote here without the author's permission) it is scheduled thus
    that, Q1 93 be dedicated to causing grief to employees with initials of
    N.A. Hence all the inside, P.C. folks are on your case. But not really.
    It's only orders they're following, see?
    
    So, hang in there and don't get depressed. Oh, and since this message
    is only for your consumpution, please heed the reply title.
    
    Thanks much for the grins.
    
    
    * - The need to comment feels a lot like heartburn after a hasty lunch.
        Replying here or Alka-Seltzer makes it go away.
    

    I'm willing to make as many allowances for people whose primary
    language is not English as I hope they would make for me if the
    circumstances were reversed.

    ref .-1
    thank you kindly, but I really dont want people to make allowances for me 
    because my first language was not English, I just want them to pick on me 
    by an amount equal to that that someone whose first language was English 
    gets picked on by.
    
    No special treatments please.

    /Nasser
    I spell checked this

	Certainly any of us will do the same quality of work whether we
	dress in a suit, or in jeans.

	Customers want to feel comfortable with those they do business
	with. In many cases, dressing a particular way meets a customer
	need. In the past, we could get away with not meeting this need
	because we could meet a much bigger need that could not be
	easily met elsewhere. The customer needed us more than we needed 
	the customer, and so, the customer ignored the smaller need,
	in order that the larger need was met.

	That situation is no longer true. There are now a sufficient
	number and quality of providers of computing services that
	the customer can afford to pick and choose. The customer doesn't
	need us any more, and if we want to be successful we must meet
	the more of the customers needs, even if they don't appear to be 
	logical. Otherwise the customer will go to a vendor who meets 
	both the need for computing equipment, *and* the need for
	feeling comfortable with how suppliers dress.

					Tom_K

    I could be all wet (I frequently am) but it seems to me that, at least
    when on a customer's site, our TOTAL persona - attitude, demeanor, and
    appearance - should reflect candor and respect.  I have dealt with far
    too many impeccably dressed used car salesmen and an equal number of 
    gentlemen in dirty coveralls.  Any bets on who's company I'd prefer ???
    
    Many years ago in at a long forgotten place called RCA Computer Systems
    Division, I had the opportunity to actively supervise the installation
    of a custom built tape sub-system I had helped design.  The site was
    operated by RCA for a customer, Conn. General Insurance in East Hartford.
    
    When I arrived at the site, dressed appropriately to crawl under false 
    floors to re-route cables, I was met by the assistant site manager, also 
    an RCA employee, who knew only he was to "take direction from Mr Johnson" 
    who would arrive that day.  When he saw me in blue jeans, he was certain 
    I could not possibly be the right Mr Johnson so he informed me, without 
    so much as an introduction, that "laborers are expected to use the rear 
    entrance".
    
    As it turned out, I *** WAS *** dressed inappropriately after all.  My 
    jeans stayed clean while the overly pompous assistant site manager, who 
    judged me solely by appearance, soiled his beautiful Brooks Brothers 
    suit while doing the work I came prepared to do.
    
    To this day, I seldom wear a tie - BUT I certainly do when I go on a
    customer visit.  I try not to pre-judge others on appearance alone, and
    I do my best to make the customer feel comfortable with my presence.
    If that means I have to wear a Hart, Shaffner, and Marx three piece
    suit with silk tie, well I do own one (somewhere) that might still fit.
    Conversely, I have also worn a T-shirt and jeans to a data center pizza 
    lunch with a few Fortune 500 CEO's.  Take your pick.
    
    /mj

    re .-the last couple...
    
    when I come to work here at ZKO I wear blue jeans.  I may pass
    customers in the hall, but I also may crawl around under systems
    without fear of expensive damage to nice clothes.
    
    last time I was onsite with a customer, I was better dressed than any
    of the bank's employees (except the first morning, when the airline
    hadn't yet found my bags).
    
    I figure if there are customer personnel visiting my home turf here at
    ZKO, they should understand that if they are not dealing directly with
    me they do not know what the requirements of my job might be, so they
    should not judge my attire in passing.  If they are dealing with me,
    I'll apply the same consideration I show when I'm visiting their home
    turf.
    
    --bruce

    re .123
    
    Nice attitude, if it's a sellers market.  Too bad it ain't.
    
    /Butch

.124>    Nice attitude, if it's a sellers market.  Too bad it ain't.
    
    In either a buyers market or a sellers market, packaging and image
    matter.
    
    In a rational market, substance matters more than either package or
    image.
    
    What I was saying in .123 is that I'll concentrate on that substance 
    rather than worry about managing external perceptions.  And if the
    market gets so crazy that image outweighs substance enough to drive me
    out, I'll just find another market (or make one).

    Actually I found that jeans always guaranteed interest from a customers
    technical folks whilst all the suits talked.
    
    Fine by me.
    
    /a

.126>    Actually I found that jeans always guaranteed interest from a customers
.126>    technical folks whilst all the suits talked.
    
    That reminded me of a frequently repeated comment by the supervisor in
    Edu Services who hired me into the corporation to teach system
    internals and software support courses, to the effect that students in
    the introductory "user" courses wouldn't trust any instructor who didn't 
    wear a suit, and the system programmer students wouldn't trust anyone
    who did.
    
    Of course, that was back in the old days, when we sold technical
    products to technical users and couldn't keep up with demand...
    (hm, wonder if there's any subtle insight hidden somewhere there?)

    Well, I guess the cut-offs and the muscle shirts will have to go (the
    suit will hide the tatoos too, so I guess that's two birds with one
    stone).  ;^}  

    Seriously, though, I was wondering about some other things.  Do you
    think I'll have to get rid of the beard?  It's kind of long, but I do
    try to keep it nice and trim.  And the hair -- I can always put in a
    pony tail, I guess.  I wear glasses -- is this the right time to switch
    to contacts?   Then there's the earlobe I lost in some bar in Hong Kong
    somewhere.  Are there prosthetics for that kind of thing?  Can I write
    it off as a tax deduction (I don't think I can expense it, can I?)? 
    Umm, let's see what else?  Oh yes, I did try pot once -- though I
    didn't inhale.  I haven't gotten up to much adultery lately, as I'm
    still single -- though I did lust after Gennifer Flowers in my heart. 
    I am not now nor ever have been a member of the Communist Party (though
    I was tempted to vote Socialist Worker once).  Let's see ...

    	-- Cliff

	Dave:

	How's it going down there?  You know, on second thought, I think
	.128 really sounds more like you than me.  Nice hearing from
	you,

		-- Cliff    

To me, .121 summed it up best:

> Customers want to feel comfortable with those they do business with. 

When I moved from Engineering (ZKO) to Sales Support, I bought a copy of
"Dress for Success", and used it to purchase 2 suits and accompanying
paraphernalia (ties, white dress shirts, etc).  I don't wear suits every
day, but they are always available to me when I need them.

Wool suit with a boring tie or tie-died jeans with a Megadeth t-shirt, it 
matters what you wear.  And the best thing is to dress just slightly
better than the person you are trying to influence/sell to/whatever.

I guess this relates to the argument in another note about whether our
products should sell themselves because they are superior (with the side
assumption that sales people were sleazy and/or unnecessary), or whether
our company requires top-flight sales talent to beat the big blue marketing
machine.  In a fight against IBM, we have to use their weapons, and one
of those weapons is what we wear (including nice suits).


RE: the question about beards  

Ok, I guess you were kidding but I thought I would answer it anyway.

I have a full beard, and no one (customer or Digit) has even questioned
me on it.  As far as I can tell, if you keep it neat and clean there will 
be no problem.

-- Ken Moreau

    ref .-1

    I agree, a beard should not be an obstacle to success, as a matter of fact,
    I know some very good engineers with big, long, and fully grown beards in 
    VMS engineering, all the way from senior consultants to principle 
    engineers, they all seem to function with ease , grace and efficiency 
    throughout it all.

    /Nasser
    I spell checked

    Is there a Grammar Checker callable from NOTES??
    

    I once had a boss in another company who told me that if I wanted to 
    succeed in his organization I'd lose weight, shave my beard off, and
    wear suits to work.  His priorities were weighted more toward
    appearance than toward performance, and eventually he ended up getting
    canned because he couldn't manage to keep his better performers from
    transferring to other jobs and his (customer services) organization
    looked good, but fell short of it's intended purpose.
    
    He also had this annoying habit of correcting people's spelling and
    grammer, while ignoring the content of their message.  I guess it's only
    natural that when you don't have anything significant to add to a
    conversation that you tend to focus on the insignificant.
    
    ... Bob
    

>    He also had this annoying habit of correcting people's spelling and
>    grammer, while ignoring the content of their message.  I guess it's only

	"Grammer"?  "GrammEr"?  C'mon, Bob, you did that on purpose,
	didn't you?

		-- Cliff

All this dress for success stuff is really pretty simple. When
you're selling something, whether it's your own skills or a DEC
product, it's to your advantage to dress for success. 

I get a kick out of these people that say "well, OUR products are
so good they'll sell by their own merits." Fine, so you sell X
amount of that product. But you could have sold X + Y amount if
you had a little respect for the customer by dressing appropriately.
Are you out to prove that you can sometimes sell a product with
a bushy beard, or are you out to sell as much of the product as possible?


Dave

    Do we have any products with bushy beards?

    
    Yes. A STAR coupler in a 32 node cluster!
    

> I get a kick out of these people that say "well, OUR products are
> so good they'll sell by their own merits." Fine, so you sell X
> amount of that product. But you could have sold X + Y amount if
> you had a little respect for the customer by dressing appropriately.
> Are you out to prove that you can sometimes sell a product with
> a bushy beard, or are you out to sell as much of the product as possible?

	OK, let me see if I've got this right:

							Perverse
						vaguely counter-cultural,
						    kind of adolescent,
						    totally unrealistic,
						    certainly outdated,
						    something or other 
						vaguely having something 
							to do with
						  issues of self-esteem 
			     Product		   and honesty and stuff
			      sold			like that

	Before suit		X			    X

	After suit	      X + Y			  X - Y

Re: .121

>        Certainly any of us will do the same quality of work whether we
>        dress in a suit, or in jeans.

Put me in a suit and tie and watch the quality and quantity plummet. Nice, open
polo type shirts are much more comfortable any day.

I have an article from the International Herald Tribune about this that I
must type in one day. It was most illuminating.


Gavin

    ref .-1

    I agree, you point out a very important point that can affect the
    health and well being of many digital employees, ties , specially work 
    ties, are known to reduce circulations of blood into the upper regions of 
    the body, resulting in reduction of critically need oxygen supply to the 
    neutrinos in the brain, with many undesirable side effects as 
    hallucinations, confusion, increased stress levels, shaking of the spin , 
    to name a few.

    Iam not a Medical Doctor, but it is wise for any who is going to
    try something like this to consult their family physicians for proper
    guidelines on this subject.

    /Nasser
    I spell checked

    
    	re .-1
    
    	Nasser, you really must stop saying that you spell checked.
    	What is Iam? And please explain what "shaking of the spin"
    	is.
    
    	This re-checking of replies that you have said that you spell
    	checked is wasting time and company resources. ;^)
    
    	John

    
    Re .-1
    
    	I think you got the wrong idea on Nasser's Terminology.
    
    	"I Spell Checked" is the department he works in which has nothing
    	whatsoever to do with spell checking as you understand it.
    
    	:-)

    Hmmm.  I thought "I spell checked" meant he had done it once in his life
    but had decided never to do it again.  Like bungee jumping.   :-)

    Tom,
    
    What are you selling to that customer who wants you to wear a dress???
       ;-)
    DAR

    What does the customer want?

             <<< Note 2019.141 by RUTILE::WYNFORD "Dorn a Loon" >>>


>Put me in a suit and tie and watch the quality and quantity plummet. Nice, open
>polo type shirts are much more comfortable any day.
    
    I like dressing casual as much as the next person, but how can what one
    wears to work have such an impact on one's performance?  Feeling
    comfortable is one thing, dressing according to the situation is
    another, but to say that the quality and quantity of your work will
    suffer due to a suit and tie is a bit much, IMO.
    
    Mark.

    It's just a question of how much a person dislikes a suit and tie.
    Your mileage probably differs.

	I asked the question in .0 because I read in a paper
	that BP wears suits and KO doesn't always.
	I believe that it is possible to buy a tailored or altered suit
	in which you are comfortable.  Buy shirts with the right neck
	size and don't strangle the tie.  Have someone go with you to make
	sure you don't get a coat that doesn't CYA etc.  That can be
	critical.
Tom

    
    I Like you too, Nasser!
    
    Kiep up the goud werk, =), We need the humor.
 
    M.K.

    Can you imagine ZKO with everyone wearing suits?
    
    I wouldn't be able to get any work done, I don't think.  I can go out
    and meet customers and teach and demo and be "on" while dressed up,
    because it feels like part of the work.  I also smile and sound really
    energetic and enthusiastic while doing this, something that would be
    very tiring to try to do while writing or developing something.
    
    I haven't yet figured out how to sit in my cube behind a terminal and
    think and write and be creative with a suit on.  I have to make sure I
    don't get it dirty, don't spill things, don't drop things and have to
    crawl around on the floor, never bend over in view of other people, and
    avoid unjamming printers or xerox machines all day.
    
    The last time I had an important customer visit downtown Boston in the
    financial district, an adolescent with a 50 pound boom box neatly
    nailed the nylons and a large chunk of leg on the T on the way in. 
    I arrived at the customer site with a 4" wide run in the nylons on top
    of a gash that started to bleed every time I moved.  I joked with the
    customer that I didn't need to use my leg to do a great demo, but
    secretly thought that jeans would have been simpler all the way around.
    Oh well, anything for mother DEC!
    
    

    
    For Nasser...
    

      Owed Two Checkers
             By Cindy Speer

      I have a spelling checker
      It came with my PC
      It plainly marks four my revue
      Mistakes I can not sea.

      Iran this poem threw it
      I'm sure your pleased too no
      Its letter perfect inn its weigh,
      My checker tolled mi sew?

>    Can you imagine ZKO with everyone wearing suits?

	I don't believe that anyone suggested that. What was suggested
	was that when meeting with a customer, we should dress in the way 
	the customer expects a professional to present themself.

					Tom_K

    I suggested it!  But I just suggested imagining it.  ;-]
    
    

.149>>Put me in a suit and tie and watch the quality and quantity plummet. Nice,
.149>>open polo type shirts are much more comfortable any day.
.149>    I like dressing casual as much as the next person, but how can what 
.149>    one wears to work have such an impact on one's performance?  Feeling
.149>    comfortable is one thing{...}but to say that the quality and quantity 
.149>    of your work will suffer due to a suit and tie is a bit much, IMO.
    
    IYO.  Feeling comfortable is part of being able to perform at peak.
    If I am wearing clothes that cost an appreciable part of a week's
    salary (eg, several days pay) I am more aware of the costume and
    potential threats of damage to it than I am when I am wearing jeans
    that cost an hour or two and are more durable.  That little bit of
    distraction is just enough to make me uncomfortable and take the edge
    off my concentration.  When I'm dealing with system issues of the
    degree of complexity that I enjoy, that difference can be significant.
    
    There is a difference depending on environment, also.  If I am
    presenting material in a formal meeting, the environment is less likely
    to pose hazards and I do not have the same degree of distraction.  If I
    am crawling around cabling systems or trying to debug hardware, the
    hazards are much higher than normal and wearing jeans instead of a suit
    is preferrable.  So it still comes back to the situation and adapting
    to it...
    

    So what's the big deal??  You meet with a customer, you wear a suit. 
    You sit behind your terminal all day at ZKO, you wear jeans.
    
    Did I miss something??  :-)
    
    -- dg

    I think the big deal is that some of us thrive on what you describe in
    .159, and some people fear that some day we may no longer have a
    choice.

    Dress for the job.  If you visit customers onsite or offsite, wear a 
    suit.  You represent the company, and you should look your best.  You
    are the company to the customer.
    
    If you are in front of a terminal answering calls all day, it is
    probably proper to dress in business casual.  If you are wearing jeans
    and a t shirt, when a customer tour comes through the facility, that is
    a negative.  There is a place for everything.  I work in the southern
    area headquarters, and I know of alot of people including myself that
    can get nice doublebreasted suits for under $150.  I know alot of
    people that work in the csc that wear fancy big name label GQ clothing
    that cost more than two of my suits.  I don't think that money has 
    anything to do with wearing a suit or not.  Not to continue rambling
    on, but just dress for the job.  Be professional.  
    
    Remember, clothing is just HALF the presentation, attitude and
    responsiveness are the other half.
    
    fwiw, I really like the way Bob Palmer dresses, we need that image!
    
    Bob
    

    Why should a person be judged by the clothes they wear?

    If the clothes are non-offensive and clean, why should anyone care
    what someone else is wearing?

    It is a form of descrimination and conformism to require (physically,
    or by lower performance reviews) a person to dress in a specific
    manner.  Yet this is done in our socitity (both Digital and the US)
    everyday.

    Does the fact that I like to wear jeans mean I am less skilled/talented
    at my job, than someone who likes to wear a suit?

    If we should all dress to meet the expectations of our customers,
    should we also all get the same hair cut as the customer?  How about
    height, if the customer is short, should we cut them off at the knees
    so the customer won't have to look up at the employee?

    Jim Patterson

This topic has nothing to do with skill. It has everything to do
with customer perception. It's been shown over and over that when
you wear a suit, the customer is more agreeable to what you're
trying to get them to do (buy, signup, whatever). 

Oh, man, I can't believe this gets so much attention.

You know, if they instituted dress codes around DEC, I'd probably be the first
to start wearing jeans with REAL BIG holes in them, and tee-shirts that serve
double duty as moths' nests.

But, I fail to see how what I wear affects the quality of my work.  As it 
happens, I was a software engineer, and I spent most of that time wearing 
business suits to work.  In the last nine years, I've only worn any sort of
pants at work once.  Over the last seven years, it's almost always been a
(skirted) business suit of some sort.  Why?  Because I want to.

Now, I don't wear ties, but I do keep the top button to my blouse buttoned.  It
doesn't cut off the circulation to my brain, it doesn't make me feel 
uncomfortable at my desk, and it hasn't (yet) hindered my performance on the
job in any way.  Nor does it distract me.  Face it, there's not much that I can
do to damage my clothes when my job is to type at a keyboard all day.

I don't care whether an engineer wears a $1K suit or a "butt floss" bikini to
work.  I just don't understand why it's necessary to trash one form of dress
over another.  If someone tells me that I have to dress a certain way, yes, I
feel indignation.  That's different from having to say "Well, I can't wear suits
at work, because they'd degrade my performance".  The latter is true only if you
make it so.

    Except that if you have an odd body type and don't quite fit size
    whatever, either squeezing into the parts that are tight or swimming in
    the tent-like parts can be distracting and uncomfortable.  You have the
    option to buy custom tailored business clothes, I suppose.  Or shop
    endlessly to find the few that fit you.
    
    LL Bean type clothes always seem to find a way to conform to your body
    after you wear them a while...plus they are always sold as separates.
    
    I'm not advocating looking like a slob in front of customers, although
    imho, customers that walk through an engineering site should be prepared to
    see people who look like they are paid to think, code, and write, not
    dress up. 
    
    I am saying that for a subset of people, business clothes are an
    extremely uncomfortable stretch that are best saved only for those
    occasions that really require them.

    Re: Well, I can't wear suits at work, because they'd degrade my
    performance".  The latter is true only if you make it so.
    
    No, it's true when it's true.  I'd say I'm 10 to 15% more productive
    when I wear comfortable clothes, because zero cells in my brain are
    devoted to topics like:  will this rip my nylons?  what's going to show
    and how much damage will I do to expensive clothes if I sit on the floor
    to rip the innards out of my pc?  oops, can't put my feet up and read
    docs comfortably, etc.
    

    I wear suits, I wear jeans, I wear stuff in between, and I haven't seen
    sillier arguments against suits in a long time.  I wear what I think
    will make the people I'm meeting with feel comfortable (and willing 
    to buy).
    
    If your suit is uncomfortable, you don't know how to buy a suit, you
    have an overly rigid mind set, or you have some fairly specific
    allergies.  In any of those cases, you need help.  Get some, and stop 
    whining.  Don't expect any sympathy from me for plaints indicating
    mental rigidity.  The company has enough people with those symptoms.
    
    /Butch
    
    

    The comfort issue is probably an "acquired taste" issue - if one were
    required to wear a suit regularly, one could get used to it an
    accommodate the inconveniences. (Though an engineer wearing a suit will
    get enough "You going for an interview?" questions during the course of
    the day to try anyone's patience.)

    I generally follow the "my turf / your turf" approach - a customer
    seeing me at ZKO will see me the way I customarily work - usually twills
    and sports shirts - even if I'm in a meeting with said customer (formal
    presentations would be an exception, but I've yet to give one to a
    customer on home turf, and I don't get involved with sales-oriented
    customer meetings - primarily tech exchanges). Outside of my "home turf"
    (i.e. DECUS) I'll wear jacket and tie ... and occasionally, my suit ...
    I did buy one a few years back for DECUS. I can't imagine going so far
    as a double-breasted, pin-striped, or vested getup, though; I'm an
    engineer, not a funeral director.

    For people that wear suits regularly - doesn't it get boring to always
    wear the same thing? Or do you actually have more than one suit?

    This discussion seems concentrated about ties ,suits , double breasted
    attire, vested jackets and the like , which is all cloths for our
    gentleman-type-employees, but what about our ladies-type-employees?, do 
    they have same issues to ponder as the ones that our 
    gentlemen-type-employees seem to be pondering in as far as the fine line 
    differentiating clothing related issues and matters that seems to 
    distinguish casual from business type of clothing?

    Thank you,
    /Nasser
    I spill checked

>.149>>Put me in a suit and tie and watch the quality and quantity plummet. Nice,
>.149>>open polo type shirts are much more comfortable any day.
>.149>    I like dressing casual as much as the next person, but how can what 
>.149>    one wears to work have such an impact on one's performance?  Feeling
>.149>    comfortable is one thing{...}but to say that the quality and quantity 
>.149>    of your work will suffer due to a suit and tie is a bit much, IMO.

I am a writer. I cannot type well or concentrate (due to discomfort) when
wearing long sleeves or with a closed collar. Simple as that. It is not "a bit
much". It's a fact. 

The idea of wearing suits is only relatively recent. It, along with 9-5 working
days, should go the way of the dodo. Impress with the quality of your work, not
by the fact you wear a $1000 suit and commute with the masses.

I have only worked in one place that had a dress code. Guess which member of
their staff was allowed to work in jeans and tee-shirt? Not me, I was too
junior. Nope, the one guy they could not afford to lose. I think it was that
place that finally convinced me of the hypocritical nature of such things.

Gavin

    
    Note 2019.159                         Suits                          
    159 of 170
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    FREE::GOGUEN "A closed mouth gathers no feet"         6 lines 
    13-AUG-1992 12:13
    
    So what's the big deal??  You meet with a customer, you wear a suit.
    You sit behind your terminal all day at ZKO, you wear jeans.
    
    Did I miss something??  :-)
    
        -- dg
    
    
    I copied note # 159 for you to read again.  What could be more clear?
    
    End of story,
    Chet

>I have only worked in one place that had a dress code. Guess which member of
>their staff was allowed to work in jeans and tee-shirt? Not me, I was too
>junior. Nope, the one guy they could not afford to lose. 

	That's sort of my point. There was a time when many customers
	"could not afford to lose Digital" as a supplier. So they put
	up with a number of things from us that they wouldn't have, except
	that we had something they wanted. Now, the market has changed,
	and they can get what they want from a number of sources.
	They don't need us anymore. So if we want to effectively compete,
	we must change.

					Tom_K

In the field, we wear what our customers expect us to wear.  

For most customers, this is a standard "IBM" dark colored business suit.

For some customers, this is business casual (golf shirt, casual pants, shoes)
...some customers are very explicit... if you wear a suit, you don't get in.

For one particular customer, a steelmill, you wear workboots, old jeans, and 
stuff you may never be able to wear again.   Hardhats, ear plugs, and eye
protection are issued at the door.

This gets real interesting when you have to call on more than one "type" of
account on the same day.  (Field offices don't have lockers or even "real"
restrooms)

You wear what is required to close the sale, regardless of how it affects your
circulation.  

Bob

    Nasser asked about women's business clothes - Karen and I and Lee way
    back have all mentioned the horror of nylons.  Some women really do
    like wearing them; some women tolerate them; others find them brutal.
    Just having them near my skin gives me the creeps, but I make an
    exception and wear them for funerals and DEC customers.  
    
    It would be nice to have a very professional looking women's suit with
    slacks become a fully acceptable alternative to suits with skirts, but
    I wouldn't currently feel right about going to a customer site in a
    pantsuit.  What do other women think about this?  

What a bunch of baloney all of this is.

Since when does the employee define the job?

If your boss tells you what the appropriate attire for the job is to be, then
that is what you wear. Period.

Clothes are made of cloth. They are easily altered with needle and thread. If
it's too big, take it in, if its too small, let it out. Simple as that. If the
collar is too tight, get a bigger collar.

If you cannot conform to the dress standards (or any standards for that matter)
that the job requires, I am sure that there is someone who will.

So, would you rather be unemployed than have to wear a suit instead of jeans?

If so, then I agree with the Japanese about the American work ethic.

Sheesh, what a bunch of whining babies.

Regards,
Steve.

So far:

Long sleeves have never interfered with my ability to type, and I do a *LOT* of
typing.

Closed collars have not interfered with my ability to breathe or think.  Even
snug closed collars.

Never once have I worried about running my hose while typing, nor for that 
matter, have I ever run my hose on the many occasions that I've had to open a
system up to install a new disk drive, crawl under the desk to recable, or any
of the other dozens of non-programming things that I find myself doing.

This is not to say that I don't have a problem keeping my hose intact at work.
The biggest problem I have is snagging them on the rough edges of the chairs
in the cafeteria.  Most of the work related hose running happens on my breaks.
Again, this doesn't interfere with my job.

Now, I have no problems with someone prefering not to wear this sort of 
clothing at work.  I do have problems with someone telling ME that my wearing
what I wear interferes with my work.

Although, if I wanted to play along, I could talk about how wearing 
uncomfortable jeans (yes, I DO find jeans to be extremely uncomfortable) would
interfere with my work, therefore I shouldn't do it, and therefore, it 
interferes with everyone's work.  The trouble is that my experiences are my
own, and just because I have a hard time working in jeans doesn't mean that
everyone else would, too.

And, I might point out that my discomfort in jeans is largely of my own making.
I'm just not used to wearing them, and I'm not used to all the places that they
pinch, grab and squeeze that a skirt doesn't.  Again, if I'm uncomfortable in
some sort of clothes (assuming that they fit reasonably), that's mainly of my
own making.

    
    
    	Umm..I haven't had a chance to read all the responses, so my
    	question may have already been answered..
    
    	Is a dress code being instituted in Digital? Or is this topic just
    	a big "what if" exercise?
    
    	BTW, I agree with the responses that say "dress to make the
    	customer feel comfortable"  and "when at your desk, wear jeans
    	and when at customer sites, wear a suit (or whatever the customer
    	wants you to wear)".
    
    	What could be simpler?
    
    	John

    reply .175


    		Okay then, if the company PAYS for my suits then I'll wear
    them. But when one is on a VERY limited budget, (i.e. read DIVORCED)
    and doesn't presently own any suits, what do you expect those people
    should do? 

    -B

I think what all of this chatter means is that people are different. I've been 
in Sales Support for almost three years and I really dislike wearing a suit.
Unfortunately, it is required that I wear suits frequently. I have 5 suits and 
they fit ok, but nothing beats a nice golf shirt, casual pants and a pair of 
comfortable sneakers. Fortunately, I have a manager that allows us to come 
into work in business casual clothes if we're not meeting with customers.

Regards,

Jim

>     <<< Note 2019.179 by HERON::BLOMBERG "Trapped inside the universe" >>>
>                            -< DEC pays for jeans? >-

>    I'm in a similar situation. I like wearing a white shirt and a tie.
>    I don't even own a pair of jeans. But of course, if the company
>    pays for a pair of jeans, I might wear them - in the office. (No, I'm
>    not a manager, I'm hacking Fortran and Macro.)

Jeans are considerably cheaper than a suit. You can buy a decent pair of
jeans and a t-shirt for less than $30. I doubt a suit would be so cheap.

Jeans are also casual wear, suitable for wearing at home. Look around at
the weekend and see how people are dressed when they're not at work.
Given the choice, most people would rather be wearing casual clothes
which cost less rather than tarting themselves up.

Many customers who wear suits don't wear them because they want to, they
wear them because they have too, because it's a rule where they work.

I used to work for a life assurance company, and they took this to riduculous
extremes. I had to wear a suit and tie even though it was 90F in the office 
(an attic with no air conditioning) and I was operating machinery which the 
tie could have got caught in. Women (doing the same job, in the same office)
could wear anything, including tight jeans. Fair?

100 years ago, people wouldn't even have considered the possibility of turning
up to an office in anything less than a suit. Thank goodness for enlightened
companies such as Digital, Apple and Microsoft. Nowadays, things are a bit
more flexible as people measure what you achieve rather than what you look
like. 

In some countries you are thought less of as a result of your skin colour. 
Fortunately, many countries no longer discriminate on that appearance, but
still we persist with the suit scenario. Is it really that different?
When you look at attitudes of 100 years ago, you can see that today we're 
much more casual. Suits are getting less necessary, what we need to think 
about is how comfortable we are with the rate of change.

Suits are a relic of the past. If more women had been working back in
history when this silly traditional got hold, then perhaps they would
have a narrow minded dress code too. 

Craig

There was an article on the back page of Computing or Computer Weekly
in the last few weeks about a company which IBM sold recently. The
company in question has since banned the wearing of ties on Fridays
because people were taking themselves too seriously.

Craig

    
    RE: entire subject
    
    Very interesting program on "Street Stories" last night about a place
    called Delancy Street where they 'rehabilitated' parolees and other
    down_and_outs.  Their technique - called "Act As If", if you want to BE
    successful, ACT successful.  One key element - you WILL wear a coat and
    tie.  By the way, it is one of the most successful programs of its type
    in the country.
    
    	Gosh, I wonder if DEC can be 'rehabilitated'?
    
    JN

    To this point, I had been "read-only" on this subject.... BUT
    
    It is interesting... When I worked back east, in PKO1, I'd wear a dress
    shirt and tie (no coat required) everyday... because it was the
    required atire. I was comfortable, and once in awhile, I would even
    wear a suit, because I was REAL comfortable in a suit (as long as I
    could fit into it, that is).
    
    Since moving to Colorado, I have had to adapt to a VERY new lifestyle
    of VERY casual atire... as a matter of fact, the few times I had my
    "east coast" atire on, it was pointed out to me that the only people
    who wear such things here are sales-types and customers..
    
    When I travel to the east, I actually look forward to wearing the suit.
    Though the casualness of life here has caused my suit to shrink a few
    sized 8^)..... 
    
    I for one would like to see some kind of middle road in this area. I
    know of companys that dress in suits on Monday thru Thursday, then
    "dress down" on Fridays.... BUT, even there "dress down" dress code is
    of reasonable atire, as to look at least presentable.
    
    IMHO, there are some places in Digital that have gotten carried away
    when it comes to "dressing down" (casual).... I mean, some of the stuff
    people wear would have been used in my house, as rags, long before they
    reached the state these people wear them...
    
    Just one persons' opinion..!
    
    Bob G.
    

>If you cannot conform to the dress standards (or any standards for that matter)
>that the job requires, I am sure that there is someone who will.

    I don't disagree with this (tone aside), but it hasn't been established
    that for engineers that "the job requires" a different mode of dress
    than casual.  Nobody I've worked for has ever suggested otherwise. And I
    haven't noticed any notes in here which indicated "my boss told me to
    wear X but I refuse to" or anything similar.

    So *who* is not "conforming to the dress standards"?

There's a bottom line to all this:
Do what is appropriate to your situation.
We are all professionals, from the assembly workers to the veeps.
Act that way.

If you are a salesman serving the financial district, you have no business
coming to work any less formal than a serious suit.
If you work in a dirty manufacturing job, a suit would be ridiculous.
If you work in software engineering, you wear what local norms say you should,
which gives you a LOT of latitude.

Customers are not stupid.  They understand all this, and expect us to
dress according to our own norms.  I have heard of customers who would
not listen to a "techie" in a suit, because they believed that any real
engineer would not wear one.
I have been told by a customer, quote, "We don't wear suits here.  You can if
you want, but we'd all be more comfortable if you didn't."

You do what's appropriate to the situation.  That is not global any more than
our situations are all alike.  In some situations, dressing down allows the
customer to regard you as "one of the team". That opens a lot of ears.

Lose the parochialism.
Just because one form of dress is the right thing for your situation doesn't
mean that it is right (as in the most productive for Digital) in others'
situations.

Kevin Farlee

>    Very interesting program on "Street Stories" last night about a place
>    called Delancy Street where they 'rehabilitated' parolees and other
>    down_and_outs.  Their technique - called "Act As If", if you want to BE
>    successful, ACT successful.  One key element - you WILL wear a coat and
>    tie.  By the way, it is one of the most successful programs of its type
>    in the country.
    
    Ah, but you miss the point.  Who get to decide what a successful
    person must look like?  No matter how successful (you can measure
    by any terms you want) I become, I will not by choice wear a tie.

    I do however wear a tie (slacks, and dress shirt) monday thru thursday
    not by choice, not because we have customers here, but rather because
    my manager has asked that of our group.

    Jim Patterson

  <<< Note 2019.178 by KNGBUD::B_SIART "Say something that makes me think!" >>>

>>     		Okay then, if the company PAYS for my suits then I'll wear
>>     them. But when one is on a VERY limited budget, (i.e. read DIVORCED)
>>     and doesn't presently own any suits, what do you expect those people
>>     should do? 

You BUY one!

When I was fresh almost out of college and had NO money I still managed to find
a way to buy a suit to wear to interviews. Once I got a job I managed to find
the money to buy a full weeks of nice clothes to wear to the office. I had to
do without cable TV for my first year. I had to do without a VCR the first
year. I did without a LOT of stuff this first year until I had stuff paid off.

However, I did what was neccessary to become successful. I did what was
neccessary to get the job. I did what was neccessary to keep the job. 

I worked in an environment that was even more casual than DEC (if you can
believe that!). However I still wore white shirts and a tie. I do know that it
made a difference in people's perceptions of me. I heard the talk on the
grapevine and overheard conversations when they thought I was out of earshot.

YOUR ATTIRE MAKES A DIFFERENCE. 

Sure, it doesn't make you a better performer or more competent, but it DOES
affect people's impressions of you. Plain and simple, there is a psychological
effect.

Years ago there was a survey taken of high school students. They were asked to
evaluate their teachers. In all cases the teachers who dressed 'up' (not
neccessarily suits, but even sport coats) consistently got the better reviews.

I can go on and on about studies to support this assertion. It is fact. 

But none of it matters when it comes to a job. 

The EMPLOYEE does NOT define the job, the EMPLOYER does. If I am told that I
must wear a blue pinstripe suit from now on and I have a closet full of grey
pinstripes, you can bet I'll go out and buy a blue one. Period. Of course my
alternative is to rebel and refuse, but what does that serve? My management
will get upset and we will now have a problem. Eventually I would probably be
replaced. 

I don't know of ANYBODY who can't be replaced. 

There is NOBODY in this or ANY company who is so  critical to the company that
the company cannot do without them, nor find someone to replace them.

Look around you at the people who have been TFSO'd. If they were told 'you can
stay but you have to wear a monkey suit', what do you think that they would do? 

Most of them would be GLAD to do so.

I just feel that if you are going to let your attire stand in your way of doing
your job, then you are indeed not interested enough in working for a living. 

A job is not an entitlement.

If you cannot be a team player, you will be left to go to another team. Nobody
needs a dissenter these days.

Regards,
Steve.

    Yes, I agree too, it is also known that Einstein used to be sloppy
    dresser, he sometimes used to forgot to put on socks or put on a pair
    that were miss match, I read that his wife used to nag him about
    his sloppy cloths all the time.

    but he was a success, as we all know, by any means of the word.

    Iam so impressed by him, I've been trying to emulate him for a long time, 
    but to no avail, I tried every thing, with socks and with no socks, 
    tried different pairs at the same time, tried one sock on one foot, and no 
    sock on the other, but nothing seems to work.

    but the point of the wise of this all, is that people can be very 
    successful even if they are very sloppy dressers, and we should not
    judge the content of the book by its cover !

    well, enough wise talk for now, you all have a very good weekend.

    Thank you,
    /Nasser
    I spell checked

    Rant all we want, first and subsequent impressions are important.
    I ditch the tie on days I don't see customers.  Sometimes, if the
    customer is an engineering group, I'll 'forget' to wear the tie.
    
    No sense alienating your audience.  
    
    karl

>> >If you cannot conform to the dress standards (or any standards for that matter)
>> >that the job requires, I am sure that there is someone who will.
>> 
>>     I don't disagree with this (tone aside), but it hasn't been established
>>     that for engineers that "the job requires" a different mode of dress
>>     than casual.  Nobody I've worked for has ever suggested otherwise. And I
>>     haven't noticed any notes in here which indicated "my boss told me to
>>     wear X but I refuse to" or anything similar.
>> 
>>     So *who* is not "conforming to the dress standards"?

Well, as you are aware, there is for the most part, not much in the way of a
dress standard at DEC. Most people are left up to their own choice.

The point I wanted to address was the attitude that seems to be pervading the
note that some people feel that they have some sort of 'right' to dress however
they want and if DEC wants otherwise, then DEC is responsible to pay for that
attire.

Maybe the tone I used was too emphatic (it was meant to be). But my attitude
still stands. DEC pays us to do a job. If DEC wants us to dress a certain way,
then that too is part of the job (it comes with the 'territory').

Again, how many of us are willing to be unemployed v/s have to wear a {form of
attire which you feel is uncomfortable}?

For me, wearing the UNEMPLOYED label is the most uncomfortable attire of all.

Regards,
Steve.

    Last year when I was part of an engineering group and never saw
    customers I routinely went to work in jeans and a t-shirt.  As a favor 
    to an ex-boss I agreed to go with a salesrep to a customer (a large NY
    bank) to investigate some performance issues on their cluster.  We were 
    supposed to go on a Tuesday.  Monday morning the salesrep calls and
    asks if we could go today instead:
    
    	Me: "Uhh okay, but first I'll have to go home and throw some
    	go-to-see-the-customer clothes on."
    
        Her: "Don't bother.  You'll probably have more credibility dressed
    the way you are."
    
    	They bought >$1,000,000 worth of hardware to upgrade their cluster
    and the VP in his three piece suit didn't bat an eye at my jeans and
    sneakers.
    
    	I only own one suit.  I'm  a six footer, weight 270# and have a
    chest size of 52".  NO ONE makes suits to my demensions off the rack.
    Last suit took over $100 in alterations and I still looked dopey in it.
    I wear it on the first customer visit and from then on it's just a
    shirt and tie.  No one has complained yet.
    
    							-Sal

>                         -< which label do you wear? >-

    Dockers.

    What I see are these two points:

>Well, as you are aware, there is for the most part, not much in the way of a
>dress standard at DEC. Most people are left up to their own choice.

    ...

>Maybe the tone I used was too emphatic (it was meant to be). But my attitude
>still stands. DEC pays us to do a job. If DEC wants us to dress a certain way,
>then that too is part of the job (it comes with the 'territory').

    The first point seems to negate the reasons to get excited about the
    second, it strikes me. If and when the first point changes, the second
    suddenly becomes relevant.

    Until then...

    >>They bought >$1,000,000 worth of hardware to upgrade their cluster and
    >>the VP in his three piece suit didn't bat an eye at my jeans and
    >>sneakers.
    >>
    >>I only own one suit.  I'm  a six footer, weight 270# and have a chest
    >>size of 52".
    
    So Sal, you don't see a connection here? The VP figured you'd crush him
    like a bug. 
    
    John H. :-)

    So all our sales people should look like Arnold Schwartzenegger?

    <<< Note 2019.196 by SSDEVO::EGGERS "Anybody can fly with an engine." >>>

    >So all our sales people should look like Arnold Schwartzenegger?

    Yes!

    If the customer don't buy, twist those big muscles, and have them sign on 
    the dotted lines for the deal of your life time.

    Be gentle and kind, for the initial time, then spread those shoulder pads
    across the table and among the crowds, and show them some of your clean
    shirt and how much it really shines.

    When the customer seems to retreat , confused about the whole deal, 
    remove the labeled tie and threaten them with wearing your dirty and
    only blue jeans.

    When all seems in despair, ask for a brief to go outside and change
    and be even more of a sleek.

    If the deal is falling indeed, increase your weight and scream, or
    better yet, spread your hair with more of that shiny cream that you 
    saw on TV.

    In the field, meeting with customers at ease, is how one can succeed, 
    so don't be a creep , dress up with the best of gear, even if it means, 
    being a little funny and weird , but what ever you do, make sure you 
    don't end up looking like an Engineer , else you might lose that big deal.

    /Nasser
    I spell checked !

    

Re: .175 and .188:

What a tolerant and understanding fellow you are, Steve... Not!

>When I was fresh almost out of college and had NO money I still managed to find
>a way to buy a suit to wear to interviews. Once I got a job I managed to find
>the money to buy a full weeks of nice clothes to wear to the office. I had to
>do without cable TV for my first year. I had to do without a VCR the first
>year. I did without a LOT of stuff this first year until I had stuff paid off.

You remind me a lot of the Monty Python sketch in which the rich cats are
sitting around discussing how poor they were when they were young. With the
exception of people like George Bush we were all young and impoverished when
we started out. Your self-righteous tone cuts no ice with me.

>However, I did what was neccessary to become successful. I did what was
>neccessary to get the job. I did what was neccessary to keep the job. 

I became successful by doing a good job, not by adopting a suit and tie.

>The EMPLOYEE does NOT define the job, the EMPLOYER does. 

Uh? Employment is a negotiated situation. It is *not* a master/servant
relationship. It is up to you to negotiate and define what you want from your
employer and it is up to the employer to define what he/she wants from you.
If you both agree enough, you sign on the dotted line. Nowhere does it say in
any of my contracts that I shall become a serf...

>pinstripes, you can bet I'll go out and buy a blue one. Period. Of course my
>alternative is to rebel and refuse, but what does that serve? 

You are incredibly subservient. 

>There is NOBODY in this or ANY company who is so  critical to the company that
>the company cannot do without them, nor find someone to replace them.

By the same token, no company is so great that its employees can't leave for
greener pastures.

>Look around you at the people who have been TFSO'd. If they were told 'you can
>stay but you have to wear a monkey suit', what do you think that they would do? 
>
>Most of them would be GLAD to do so.

My mind boggles at this assertion. Unless I refer back to your previous
statements, in which case it fits with your world view. You might want to
put your question to those who have gone to Apple, for example...

>I just feel that if you are going to let your attire stand in your way of doing
>your job, then you are indeed not interested enough in working for a living. 
>
>A job is not an entitlement.
>
>If you cannot be a team player, you will be left to go to another team. Nobody
>needs a dissenter these days.

How does change start? The last thing a company in trouble needs is a bunch of
yes-men who won't question anything that comes down from on high. Wasn't there
a dissenter called Rose back in the 60s who decided that sitting at the back of
the bus wasn't acceptable...?

Have you read "What Color is Your Parachute"? You might find it enlightening.

If I wanted to wear a uniform I'd have joined the Army.

Gavin

Re: .191

>Again, how many of us are willing to be unemployed v/s have to wear a {form of
>attire which you feel is uncomfortable}?
>
>For me, wearing the UNEMPLOYED label is the most uncomfortable attire of all.

Why do you feel that the only two alternatives are Digital or unemployment?

Gavin

Dilbert is a computer geek who rarely sees a customer, but he always wears
a tie.

>I had to do without cable TV for my first year. I had to do without a VCR the
>first year.

This is a wind-up isn't it? I mean, doing without cable tv and VCR are hardly
sacrifices are they? 

Dave.

    Hmmm.  I've been working for DEC for 28+ years, and I still don't have
    cable TV or a VCR.  Is that because I don't wear suits?

    	Nope, you're stuck in a time warp. The lack of a suit is indicative
    of a completely different problem that you have.

    Re: .-1
    
    Gee.  I hoped the lack of a suit would cancel out the lack of a VCR.
    You're telling me the problems are additive.  Damn!

    YUP... get a suit and the VCR will come.....!
    
    
    	Varied Customer Response
    
    8^) :^)
    
    Have a nice day.!
    

    Re .189
    
    /Nasser,
    
    Whilst not being meticulous in his mode of dress, Einstein was adamant
    that drinking coffee early in the morning or late at night was
    conducive to lowering the quantity and quality of brain cells.
    
    Harry
    Is my spell checker working OK?

    >Whilst not being meticulous in his mode of dress, Einstein was adamant
    >that drinking coffee early in the morning or late at night was
    >conducive to lowering the quantity and quality of brain cells.
    >
    >Harry
    >Is my spell checker working OK?
    
    yeah, and now you come and say!
    when the damaged cells are beyond the hope of any repair !
    running around confused and in utter despair
    asking for the fuel they so much desire and crave
    to hold them higher and shake them in the worst of rage
    but we don't really much care
    we need the nicotine and what ever is in there
    to lose the loved cells is the price one must dearly pay
    to live happy and elevated or just smart but de-hydrated
    is the question we all must ask as we drink our daily caffeinated

    /Nasser
                   TM
    I spell checked
    

Let me pose a question.

When you (plural) interviewed for your current (or initial) job (which is an
assumption on my part) at D.E.C., how many of you wore jeans, T-shirts, etc.?

For those of you for whom D.E.C. is not your first and only employer, how many
of you EVER interviewed in jenas, T-shirts, etc.?

I suspect that the number (if not zero) is quite low. 

The point is, you dress nicely to make an impression on a potential employer.
You feel that the company has something you want (a job) and you are willing
(if not adamant) to present as positive an image about yourself as is possible.

You know that there will be several applicants for the job to which you are
applying. So you want to maximize your opportunity in getting the job.

Sure you know that you are the best qualified and that your resume',
accomplishments, ability, etc. should speak for themselves, however you still
dress as nicely as possible in an effort to maximize your impact on a potential
employer.

If nothing else, it is considered a courtesy as well.

The point I was trying to allude to in my previous posts was that appearance
does make a difference when all else is equal. Sometimes all that someone knows
about you is your appearance. You have one shot at a first impression, don't
blow it.

Dress as you feel is appropriate, but bear in mind, even if it is not a
conscious effort, people DO take your appearance into account when they think
about you.

Regards,
Steve.

Steve,

	I've been married for 14 years now.  Does this mean I should start
brushing my teeth?  Could it be that I'm making a bad impression with my wife?

Charlie   :-))))))

Steve, if you must know, the last interview I went to I dressed as I always am;
short sleeved open neck shirt (polo/golf type), casual trousers and Reeboks.
I got the job... 

Most of my other interviews have been by phone...

Gavin

Suit

VCR

Answering machine

Microwave

Golf lessons

Espresso machine

Cellular phone

Porsche Targa

Worrying about the capital gains tax

Voting Republican!

For what it's worth, when I interviewed at DEC (coming in from the outside) I 
wore a sports jacket and turtleneck and Sears-esque slacks - no tie (nor 
T-shirt and jeans; I never wear T-shirts to work anyway). Got the job. That was 
over fifteen years ago; maybe things have changed.

It would never occur to me to suit up for a job interview which was a transfer 
with*in* DEC - I'm always puzzled when people within DEC that I'm interviewing 
show up dressed to the nines. My reaction is something along the lines of 
"here's someone who doesn't understand the culture - that's odd" - not a 
negative reaction, but not positive either - neutral.

>Dress as you feel is appropriate, but bear in mind, even if it is not a
>conscious effort, people DO take your appearance into account when they think
>about you.

Is the distinction being drawn suit versus open collar, or My Three Sons casual 
versus Abbie Hoffman Chicago Seven unwashed? The topic is "Suits", but the 
counter-example is always "T-shirts and jeans". There's a wide middle ground 
between suits and T-shirts.

I know of no one in the field sales organization who would consider interviewing
in anything less than "business attire"  (read suit and tie).

I would also question the judgement of someone who would show up for an 
interview in a sales organization wearing anything else.

Just plain common sense...

Bob

... and if I were going for an interview in an engineering organization,
I would not persume to violate their norms and make them (and myself) feel
uncomfortable by wearing a suit.  I wouldn't show up grimy either, just neat
and casual.

The point is that you do what is appropriate for each situation.  This
corporation is varied enough that nobodys situation can or should be 
applied globally.  

Kevin Farlee

Spell check? what is "spell check"???

    I don't want to play can-you-top-this, but I once had an interview on a
    fishing pier.  "I'm the one in the Durham Bulls cap," said my
    prospective employer.  I did not wear a suit (though I was tempted to
    wear my OP's).

    If I may be serious for a moment (very hard to do BTW), I have had
    interviews and jobs at companies that cover the whole range --
    sartorially speaking, that is.  I've found that where I had to wear a
    suit I just simply wasn't that productive.  I felt very uptight, I felt
    like I couldn't speak my mind, I felt like I had to play politics, I
    felt like I had to look busy, I felt like appearances were more
    important -- I just didn't feel like myself.  Where I've been able to
    wear jeans or could throw the frisbee in the hallway or could go out
    for an ice cream run, I just felt a whole lot better.  Even more
    important, though, I felt a lot more productive, creative, involved,
    valued.  But I don't think it was all me.  This may be a wholly
    subjective impression, but it seemed like the companies which had dress
    codes were also the ones where creativity was stifled, where politics
    were played, where intiative was not encouraged, where hierarchy was
    rewarded.

    To return to interviews for a moment, when I was in my last semester at
    school I made up my mind not to interview at IBM at all (though they
    were the largest presence on campus at the time, and I could have had
    my pick of jobs).  I simply figured that their dress code said
    something about them, and that it was something I didn't particularly
    want to hear.

    I was attracted to DEC for a lot of the reasons that I was turned off
    by IBM.  In fact, when I was ready to make a decision, I was getting
    pretty downright counter-suggestive about the whole thing.  I remember
    this one company out in San Francisco that offered me $6000 more, put
    me up in a nice suite overlooking the Bay, had one of their VPs call me
    all the time.  DEC, on the other hand, put me up at HoJo's (at one
    site), skipped taking me out to lunch (at another).  "Hey," I said,
    "this is the company for me!"  And I was right!  Half of my graduating
    class went to the company out West -- and all were gone after a year of
    total burnout.  I stayed at the same DEC site for 5 years -- and really
    enjoyed every minute of it.

    What I'm wondering about though -- and why this note is important to me
    -- is whether that old DEC culture is really changing?  And I think
    suits are an important (though perhaps somewhat arbitrary) symbol of
    what we're talking about here.  No, I agree that wearing suits to a
    customer site is a non-issue.  And, no, I don't typically wear denim to
    a job interview.

    On the other hand, though, I have this picture of Ken in my office that
    just speaks volumes about this whole matter.  It's gotta be the
    doofiest picture of him I've ever seen (and that's saying a lot).  He's
    standing in a canoe, wearing a shirt he obviously got from K-Mart
    (which also happens to have one button unbuttoned), about the most
    nondescript brown pants you can imagine, a really silly battered-up
    hat, and a great crooked-tooth grin.  Hey, this is a guy I can really
    work for!

    I know the whole things's all relative (and I certainly don't want to
    force anybody to wear jeans -- heaven forbuid that you should be
    comfortable and productive).  But I think we're talking about a lot
    more than suits here.  I would like to stay with DEC and see if the
    important stuff stays the same under the new DEC.  Unfortunately,
    though, I won't have that chance.  Anyway, it's been fun.  Good luck
    to you all.

    	-- Cliff

    ref .215
    I agree with you Bob. %100.

    I recall, in the good old days, when I interviewed with DEC software
    services back in beautiful Seattle, I arrived fully groomed and totally
    bright, I had on my best suit (the only one I ever had) and a clean shirt 
    just out of the laundry-mat, topped by a fashionable hair fully combed and
    pulled to my right.
    no way, would I have arrived , wearing the jeans and looking like a 
    broken wheel spinning out of some Halloween.
    I got the job, may be because of my smart, but also for the charm
    carried on by my power tie, I bet you high.
    and only then, I relaxed , and threw the dreaded tie, and lived happily
    ever after with my neck feeling just fine.

    /Nasser
                   TM, patent #314721
    I spell checked

>  I've found that where I had to wear a
>    suit I just simply wasn't that productive.  I felt very uptight, I felt
>    like I couldn't speak my mind, I felt like I had to play politics, I
>    felt like I had to look busy, I felt like appearances were more
>    important -- I just didn't feel like myself.  Where I've been able to
>    wear jeans or could throw the frisbee in the hallway or could go out

	I've worked in offices where one had to wear a suit. How productive
	I was or how comfortable I was depended (and still does) a lot more
	on general attitude of the place then the dress code. I worked for
	Digital in NYC for a while. Casual attire in "the city" is a tie
	and sports coat. We used to throw frisbees in the hall in the DEC
	office (after hours) all the time. And I didn't let the suit keep
	me from using my unicycle as commuting transportation either.

			Alfred

    Suppose you're one of the people who values wearing what you like to
    work and working in a productive but casual environment (like ZKO).
    
    If someone offered you $15K more a year, would you be willing to go to
    a glossy, high visibility environment (like Stow) and dress up in a
    suit everyday?  Assume the work would be different, but you think you'd
    like it ok - the only  difference is environment and what you have to
    wear.
    
    How about $30K?
    
    There are no right or wrong answers to this question ;-)

    re: .220
    
    I work in Stow and it is neither glossy nor high visibility!!  It may
    have been when Jack Shields worked here but not any more.  It is very
    much like any other facility where there are folks in suits and folks
    not in suits.  (and they don't pay us an extra 15K to dress up!!) :-)

             <<< Note 2019.210 by RUTILE::WYNFORD "Dorn a Loon" >>>

>> Steve, if you must know, the last interview I went to I dressed as I always
>> am; short sleeved open neck shirt (polo/golf type), casual trousers and 
>> Reeboks. I got the job... 
>> 
>> Most of my other interviews have been by phone...

Ah, now I guess we get into the differences between contractors and permies. 

As I recall, you are a contractor. Does this mean that there is a double
standard for contractors and permanent hires? 

Also, is this an isolated incident, ie: in total, how many interviews have you
been on, on how many did you dress casually vs. formally, and how many did you
actually get in both categories?

I too got many a job via phone interviews during my tenure as a contractor.

Then again, in such circumstances you are able to 'sell' the client on yourself
and your abilities. There is NO visual 'interference' running between the two
of you. That is one thing about the email system, not only can you not tell
anything about the individual by appearance, but there are no verbal clues
either. Even the name itself isn't the 'tipoff' it once was.

Regards,
Steve.

Re: .217

Cliff, you've made a couple of important points here.

>    sartorially speaking, that is.  I've found that where I had to wear a
>    suit I just simply wasn't that productive.  I felt very uptight, I felt
>    like I couldn't speak my mind, I felt like I had to play politics, I
>    felt like I had to look busy, I felt like appearances were more
>    important -- I just didn't feel like myself.  Where I've been able to
>    wear jeans or could throw the frisbee in the hallway or could go out
>    for an ice cream run, I just felt a whole lot better.  Even more
>    important, though, I felt a lot more productive, creative, involved,
>    valued.  But I don't think it was all me.  This may be a wholly
>    subjective impression, but it seemed like the companies which had dress
>    codes were also the ones where creativity was stifled, where politics
>    were played, where intiative was not encouraged, where hierarchy was
>    rewarded.

This sort of thing has been the subject of a number of studies over the years
and you have come to same conclusions as they did. The really innovative,
creative type of companies all had a very loose structure; people came and went
at all hours, they wore what they felt was comfortable and everyone was on
first name terms (sound familiar?). After a while, some companies "settled
down", established their market and stopped innovating as much. That's when the
politics and suits started to make an appearance. The really creative folks
then moved on and created new small companies. If you want a non-Digital
example, read Guy Kawasaki's book, "The Macintosh Way". The parallels with
Digital's early years are there in Apple. 

Some people prefer the sense of belonging that comes with wearing a suit in a
business environment; if you are all wearing grey three-piece suits with yellow
power ties, it's easy to blend in and feel safe. Others prefer the individual
statement and warmth of creativity that can go with it. Attempts to force
people to cross their own barriers inevitably will fail, whichever the
direction of the push. 

So, you have to find a company that reflects the way you see the world. I agree
with you, Cliff, the thought of working at IBM.... Brrrr!

Gavin

    after giving this some deep thought, I came to a realizations that
    seems appropriate at this point for some one to summarize what we have 
    learned from all this exciting discussions in the last few weeks.

    I believe that the source of it all stems from your childhood days,
    my theory is that those little children who were never sloppy 
    and drank the milk without blubling it all over the place, and had 
    their naps when asked to, these are the ones who end up going 
    to the interviews dressed up real nice, and they'll grow up to
    be our managers , sales people and VP's.

    but those children who did lots of crying and whining and always made a 
    big mess and run away when it was time to be fed, and never took the nap 
    when told to, these ones will end up to be sloppy dressers and go to the 
    interviews in jeans and T-shirts, and they'll grow up to be the Engineers 
    that we all know and love.

    I except some people to argue with me on this, I know , it sound too 
    radical , but I ask each and every of you to step back as I did, and 
    reflect, and really think about what I just said, before jumping in and
    telling me that Iam full of it or something even worse.

    my same 2 cents. as usual

    /Nasser

    re .225
    
    I was a messy child, and am now an engineer.  I'm also a messy adult,
    and have no desire to change.  When I interviewed at Digital I wore
    casual-dressy clothes.  I have never owned a suit.  I do not ever,
    ever, ever want to work in management, marketing or sales.  
    
    -ellie

    Someone mentioned the necessity wearing suits to interviews for 
    sales/sales support type jobs.
    
    My last interview within DEC was for a delivery job.  I wore jeans, a
    flannel shirt and motorcycle boots.  The jeans also had a decent sized
    tear in them (admittedly I got the tear that day whilst debugging a
    cabling problem - damned raised floors :-).  Since I rode my motorcycle 
    to work that day I also had a severe case of helmet hair.  I got the
    job.
    
    The only time I've worn a suit to a DEC interview was to my first one. 
    But then I had just graduated college and was pretty stupid at the
    time.
    
    								-Sal
    
    

	I was a messy child and am not that tidy as an adult.
	It's jeans and t-shirt at home.

	However, I always dress well to come into the office, and always wear
	a suit (no tie!) when consulting with customers. The customers I deal 
	with are similarly attired.
	
	The only time I feel uncomfortable is wearing high heels on the tube if
	I have to go to London to see a customer. A small inconvienince that
	isn't a big deal.

	Its horses-for-courses, I wear what I believe fits the occaision, and
	what the customer expects - we want the business, and they are paying 
	after all.
	
	Heather    Whose desk is never tidy!    

Re: Nasser

You forgot the middle ground between suits and jeans; smart casual. How does
that fit with your model? Such children spilt their milk but took naps at
the right time...?

Re: Steve

Yes, I'm a contractor. But I was also a permie once. I decided along time ago
that my work should speak for itself and that what they see is what they are
going to get. That way, there are no false expectations created by the
interview. If they don't like the lack of tie, doubtless they will indicate
this, directly or indirectly, and I will not get the job. On the other hand, a
company that is that superficial is not one I would wish to be associated with
anyway...

This discussion shows one of the many reasons I quickly abandoned all thought
of becoming a lawyer or accountant when I was younger. In retrospect, it was
one of the best decisions I ever made! 

Gavin

First, I am a developer/engineer, primarily what _The New Hacker's Dictionary_
defines as a "toolsmith".  When I worked in Engineering I wore jeans and a
T-shirt; now, in the field, I wear what's appropriate: first meeting, a suit;
next, sport coat; regular work, shirtsleeves [and optional tie, as 
appropriate].

Second: my sister has a management consulting company and teaches in the 
business school at Rutgers.  She likes to use the Myer-Briggs Personality
Type classification for working with her clients; as well, she has applied
the test to all her relatives, I among them.  I fell into a class which
is described by terms remarkably similar to those used in describing hackers
in TNHD, referenced above.  Of most interest in the current topic was a
sidebar in one book which discussed clothing styles and the "types".  My type
(which probably fits many engineers) was described as "taking it as a personal
affront when clothes wear out", and wearing what's comfortable, etc.  (My wife,
who has found with horror how many of my clothes predate 1975, laughed her
head off--and then realized it might be a permanent affliction.)

Other types: those who excel in (or tend to end up in, excellent or not)
managing, sales, personnel handling, etc., had (as a whole) different 
attitudes towards clothing.  The religious differences displayed here may
be rooted in the differences whereby some create elegant algorithms, and
others orchestrate complex sales situations.  "The eye cannot say to the hand,
'I don't need you!'"  See 1 Corinthians 12:12-26 (with loose application to
a corporation).

[I don't think it would be fair to apply verse 23 to those who have to
wear suits, by the way.  ;^)  ]

While I would like to assume that all of you know who George Carlin is, I am
sure that some of you do not. George is mostly a standup comic and one of his
trademarks is his tie-dyed T-shirts (and beard, jeans, etc also).

I would also like to assume that everyone of you know what Saturday Night Live
is. Briefly, it started in 1975 as a sort of pseudo-improv comedy presentation
to television (some have likened it as the successor to the successful Rowan &
Martin's Laugh-In show, in fact, Gary Owens who was the booth announcer became
that for SNL). Anyway, SNL gave us the likes of Chevy Chase, Eddie Murphy,
Garret Morris, Gilda Radner, John Belushi, Dan Aykroyd and many more.

Well, when SNL was originally being put together, they wanted a BIG NAME to
headline as guest host for the original pilot.

They thought that George Carlin would be perfect. However, the network had a
problem with his attire (remember, this was 1975 and the networks were very
conservative in programming). They were hesitant to let George go onstage in
front of millions of viewers in his T-shirt. They wanted him to wear a 3 piece
suit.

Well, I'll never forget that night when I watched the pilot. Here comes George
Carlin, a penultimate child of the '60's wearing a 3 piece suit. But wait,
somethings odd. Sure enough. He wore that 3 piece suit, but instead of a dress
shirt and tie and dress shoes, he wore one of his T-shirts and sneakers.

Apparently it worked. 8-)

Read into it what you will, but I feel that that kind of summarizes the whole
point of this topic.

Regards,
Steve.

    
    	Carlin started as a standup comedian in super ivy league
    	suits and buttoned-down oxford suits long before "Occupation:
    	Foole" and SNL and thinking he was the reincarnation of
    	Lenny Bruce.  Id est:  He got solid credentials before he was
    	able to afford the luxury of doing his own thing.  When he
    	jocked at WEEI years back, do you think he showed up for his 
    	first interview in a ponytail and tie dye?

    Re: .-1
    
    I don't know.  What did George Carlin wear to his WEEI interview?

re: SNL

Gary Owens played the part of a booth announcer on Laugh In.
The real booth announcer on SNL was/is Don Pardo, of Jeopardy and
other game show fame.