Conference trucks::football;1

Well here's the first dig at United in a new conference. They only went and lost
5-1 last night to Austria Vienna and new boy Parker was responsible for 3 of
the goals and also got himself booked. I am now certain it is something to
do with United that reasonable, even good players like Parker end up nervous 
wrecks!!

Keep Smiling Stretford Enders!!!

Chris.

    
    Manchester United were thrashed 5-1 last night in a friendly against
    Austria Vienna in Linz. But what about this for a lame excuse. Manager
    Alex Ferfuson blamed fatigue for this result. The season hasn't even
    started and the Mancs are jaded out. Brian "choccy" McClair scored the
    only goal for the Mancs.
     
        rgds,
         Martin

    Well well....
    
    The City reserves have started well then.....
    
    :-) :-) :-) :-)
    

I am now honestly convinced Paul Parker was bought by someone else to stop any
remote chance United have of attempting to win the league. He scored another 
own goal yesterday!!! 2 in 2 games , good rate that!!

Chris

    I can say with a good deal of certainty that if Utd. had Maradonna,
    Pele, Best or Aldo in their team, they would still be conceeding
    own-goals. On a more serious note, it looks as if Utd. don't even have
    a remote chance of winning the league title. They needed to buy some
    quality players like Liverpool have done but opted for a Russian, a
    Danish keeper(now that's good buying when one considers the rules for
    UEFA competitions) but I think Parker will turn out to be a good buy.
      Yes, it does look increasingly likely that Utd. will be reaching the
    quarter-century without a league title.
      
        Martin. 

     
    Guess what.....??? BRYAN ROBSON will not start against NOTTS COUNTY
    he was injured in the testimonial it seems to be a calf injury.
    
    Its getting a bit much................don't you think.I mean he's
    the buisness but but but.....I can't keep making excuses for him.
    
    

    > he's the buisness but but but.....I can't keep making excuses for him.
    
    dont bother mate...weve been laughing at him for years...
    now, hes just becoming an embarrassment.
    
    Ian.
    

Brian,

 The difference was that you paid that amount of cash a few years back for a
defender who was not experienced in the top flight. We have paid less now for
an international class defender!! United are actually a good bet this year as 
the 7/4 odds for Arsenal and Liverpool are ridiculous if you want to win any 
cash. It just shows that the bookies have no faith in the rest of the First
Division when the third favourites are at 8/1!!

Chris.

    Odds or no odds, I can't see Utd. with a chance of winning the league.
    We know nothing about the Russian or the Danish keeper and you still
    have Mike Phelan, Neil Webb and Robbo who is surely well past it by
    now. So there is a total absence of strength or indeed ability in the
    middle of the field to mount a serious title challenge.
       In my opinion, Utd. will do well to finish in the top five.
      
         Martin.

    re -1
    
    
    (  In my opinion, Utd. will do well to finish in the top five.)
    
    	Just above liverpool then ??!!!
    
    
    im

    Odds or no odds.....
    
    You just can't see.
    
    Martin, give me 4/1 on United finishing in the top 5.
    
    
    Paul

    
    	re last few...
    
    	Despite being a life-long UTD nut, I have to agree with those that
    	criticise the sense of some of our recent "aquisitions". 
    
    	Pallister at 2.3m was lunacy but what we had to pay to get him.
    	We paid (and continue to pay !!) silly money for Ince..
    	Phelan.....utter waste, I think he's rubbish.
    	Webb - probably seemed OK at the time, but has proved doubtful.
    
    	All in all, Liverpool have been able to buy the best (Barnes,
        Beardsley, Rush from Juve) because the best players want to play
    	in the best side and are prepared to go there and test themselves
    	with the best.
    
    	Utd will continue to struggle to lure the likes of Wright,
    	Saunders to OT whilst they continue to be a "good" side but not
    	a "great" side, and winning the league title (yes, Martin, I
        KNOW..) is the best measure of that.
    
    	I remain hopeful that we can have a good year this season, but 
    	being a serious title contender with a collection of good players
    	rather than a top-class squad could prove difficult, if not
    	impossible.
    
    	We'll see, but I'm not too confident. Our best chance of honours
    	remains winning one of the cups, with a top three finish in the 
    	League.
    
    	Consistency is the key. We play well against 'pool, Arsenal, Leeds,
    	and give up far too many points to lesser sides. Liverpool don't
   	typically do that, and last year when they did, Arsenal didn't and
    	they won the League.
        
    	
    	Andy.
        

Andy,

 An excellant and honest United note.

Must be applauded for talking common sense

Chris

    
    	Yes, Brian...I too live in hope. There IS only ONE UNITED...
    
    
    	But to clarify what I was saying,
    
    	Pallister. He has not been excellent value. He took 18 months to
    	look an accomplished player. For 2.3m I would expect the finished
    	article!! He looks better now, and I like his temprement. And yes,
    	he will be around (hopefully..) for years to come. Still not
    	considered "International" class by those that make the decisions,
    	though...
    
    	Ince is woeful. He's volatile, has too few "good" games - again,
    	I expect more for so much money - , sometimes violent, doesn't
    	score enough (any!) goals. He looked good as a big fish in a small
    	pool (sorry to West Ham fans..) but his Ambrose Mendy-run bandwagon
    	has proven ill-founded for me. I say he should go, and soon. 
    
    	Phelan is cr*p.
    
    	And what about Danny Wallace !!! (thanks for reminding me, Antony
    				
    				8-(   
     
    	Jeez, words fail me.....When I think Liverpool paid 900k for Barnes, 
    	and we paid 800k for that camel...ask yourself if that was good 
    	business..
    
    	I'll be rooting for United as much as ever this year, but no one
    	can convince me that we've been too clever in the transfer market
    	recently. Paul Parker is one of the few "coups" we've achieved, in
    	my opinion. I think he will prove to be worth every penny. When
    	I hear Liverpool fans saying "..wish we'd bought him.." that gives
    	me a good feeling!!
    
    	And Sparky will score this season's first Div.1 goal !! 
    
    
     	Andy.

    
    
    Man Utd lost 0-1 in a testimonial at VS Rugby (non-league cub) last
    night.
    
    Paul

    I reckon the worst buy ever was that haircut Mal Donaghy.
    
    Paul

Interesting to see the Utd fans (and others) complaining about so-called high
transfer fees...

Remember you're supposed to be the elite. You want a Super-League? You got it!

;-)
Tarik

    
    I must say something to defend poor old MIKE PHELAN,you are all
    saying he is c**p thats not true he played well through the last
    half of the season and never let us down when playing at right back.
    I agree he is not a UNITED player or the type of player that supporters
    want to see but give the man some credit....He was the best we had
    at the time and never let UNITED down with his commitment..yes maybe
    lacks skill and pace and would'nt my first choice but a pat on his
    back for his guts and commitment and asked to play out of position.
    
    
    As to the note about transfers its good to see UNITED buy players
    who we can look forward to becoming good players.At one point they
    seemed to buy players who used to be at their prime and only wanted
    to play for a big club and a big wage before there careers finished
    for example:ALAN BRAZIL,IN SOME CASES FRANK STAPLETON,GARRY BIRTLES
    GEORGE GRAHAM (going back some,but arrived at UNITED with a big
    name at the end of his career and did nothing)GORDAN MCQUEEN,and
    I am sure there are more.Its good to see UNITED buy players who
    are developing rather than supporters sitting and waiting to see
    if big name players produce the goods that they once did.

    
    
    United  2 - Notts County 0
    Hughes
    McClair
    
           47,000+ crowd, the doors were locked an hour before the 
    start with thousands still outside. Sounds like a good start,
    anyone got a math report..?
    
    Duncan.

    
    
         Or a 'match' report even.......
    
    Duncan.

    re .27
    ACtually the second scorer for United was a marvellous volley from
    Robbo (the man who can't play and is always injured, never makes the
    start of a season  etc etc).
    
    The Russian 'Connie' played a blinder; very quick and inventive.
    There's going to be some ragged defences when he teams up with Sharpe.
    
    PP kept a clean sheet!
    
    ANd United are top of the league!
    
    PS: Local radio expect a renewed bid from Forest for Webb this week.
    Webb didn't even make subs on Saturday.

    RE:-2
    	does this renewed bid from Forest mean that Ferguson is willing to
    let Webb go?? I read somewhere that Ferguson maintained he wanted the
    strongest possible squad and Webb would be part of it!
    
    M.J.

    
    	Good start for us. A result away to Villa this week is now vital.
    
    	Glad to see Sparky getting the first (of many) for Utd this season.
    
    	Lets hump Big Ron's escapologists (sp?) from Saturday and set the 
    	pace, with 'pool and Arsenal mis-firing a little at the start of 
    	the season and Spurs getting lucky (Southampton should have had
    	six but forgot where the goal was...)
    
    
    
    	tip for Wednesday:
    
    	Villa 0 - 1 Utd		McClair  60 mins.
    
    
    	Andy.
    

    re .31
    
    Ferguson wants 2M for Webb; Forest so far have offered 1.5M. If Forest
    offer 2M then I would assume it's too good an offer to refuse. Webb has
    never really hit it off at OT, mainly because of injuries and he's
    played out of position -- right side of midfield rather than centre.
    
    I'd be sorry to see him go, mainly because he's not one of the
    'headless' chicken type midfield players (aka Batty, Ward, McCall) but
    can actually pass acurately more than 10 yds -- witness his pass in the
    Cup Final to Lee Martin.

    Re .30,
    
    Interesting to see United playing with 6 non-english players on
    Saturday (I don't know what nationality Ferguson is?). 
    [Liverpool played with 5 so they have a similiar problem]
    
    I imagine that the goalie and both Hughes and Mclair will make the cut for
    the Europen games - but that would mean cutting one or both of the
    full-backs; which might not be the best thing to do.
    
    Comments anyone?
                
    Andrew.D.Wicks
    

    I would imagine the team to be
    
    Schmicael (or however its spelt) Danish
    Parker
    Bruce
    Pallister
    Martin
    Ince
    Robson
    Konelski     Russian
    McClair      Scottish
    Hughes       Welsh
    Sharpe
    subs: Webb, Wallace, Beardsmore, Beardsmore (Welsh) , Irwin (Irish)
    
    Seems a bit lacking if any injuries. Can subs be 'foreigners' as long
    as on 4 foreigners on pitch at any one time?
    
    CAn't understand why teams have just rolled over and accepted this
    ruling; seems a restraint of trade under EC rules.
    

    
    Only 4 foreign players allowed per squad. Thus United need some more
    English subs. Maybe thats why they won't let Webby return to his best
    hunting ground at FOREST?   8-) 8-) 8-)
    
    Come on UU RRREDDDSS...
    
    3 Points from Leeds tonite..
    
    DavidS.
     

    
    Problem with United having soooooo many foreigners is......only players 
    playing in foreign countries will play for United......cause they are
    the only ones who HAVEN'T seen the pitch !!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Cheers...Rob..

    INFO WANTED.....
    
    Who scored the United goal that won the 1990 Cup Final ?
    
    

    Lee Martin (?)
    
    

    
    Hello!
    
    I'm a Yank, married to an old "Stretford ender", who I'm holding
    hostage here in San Francisco, CA.  I've told him about this note,
    and he just can't believe it!!!  He asked me to enter a reply and
    see if anyone would be willing to publish this year's schedule for
    Manchester United here.  
    
    Thank you very much in advance!
    
    Lynn
    

    
    Simon and Brian, you guys are terrific!!!  Tony will be elated!
    (I'll have to think of something I REALLY want, and use this info
    as a bribe....)
    
    Thank you SO much!
    
    Lynn
    

    
    I see Ferguson hopes that Andrei K will be fit to play on Saturday
    against Southampton. Have to wait and see. 
    United to win 3-1, YES even away to Southampton.
    
    United are still debating on who should play in the 1st Round of the
    ECWC. Deifinates are probably Schmiechal(sp!) Hughes, McClair and one
    other between Andrei K(if fit) Dennis Irwin and Giggs. Should be intersting
    who he picks. Will probably be from:-
    Schmiechal
    Parker
    Irwin?
    Pallister
    Robson
    Ince
    Hughes 
    McClair
    Andrie K?
    Sharpe
    Wallace
    Giggs?
    Bruce
    
    
    im

    United have used 16 players already this season, and Sharpe, Wallace,
    Martin, Robins, and Beardsmore have still to appear. This shows how
    strong the squad is and it will stand to us as the season wears on.
    
    Brian.
    
    

    Robson can't play in 1st ECWC game; he's been suspended as he was
    booked too often in last year's glory run.

    Anyone know if the Man U match in the ecwc is live on t.v.
    
    A.L.

    
    ITV are showing Utd v Pae something Live on Wednesday at 2.20pm, with
    the Arsenal game live in the evening, directly opposite Liverpool v a
    lot of part timers. Oh dear, I seem to have next Wednesday booked as a
    holiday as well.
    
    happy viewing
    Gary

    What happened all the other entries to this note ?
    
    Anyway, as I had said in one of those entries, we get a match here in
    Canada live every Saturday. Well, United are on this week, and will be
    several times this season. In case anyone over there wants to pick up
    the Satellite, TSN (the sports network, a TV channel over here hwo
    provide the program) have told me it is on:
    
    Galaxy 6 satellite, Transponder (channel) 24.
    
    I believe it is not scrambled. Enjoy!
    
    Paul

    re .49
    Perhaps I'm mistaken; or local radio is!
    
    

    In a squad of 16 you are only allowed 4 foreign players.
    
    Also robson is suspended so he will not be playing.
    
    Prediction 3-0 to United
    
    A.L.

    
    
    Prediction for the ECWC
    
    UNITED 4 	PAE Athinaikos 0
    
    
    And on Saturday 
    
    UNITED 5 	The MAD Hatters 0
    
    Nearly each member of the team scoring a goal this week ??!!!
    
    
    macca

    re -1
    
    I don't think Luton will be pushed over 5-0 at OT. The Mancs will have
    been over to Greece, and will be tired and Luton at home isn't
    glamorous is it. I would not be surprised if the Hatters get a point.
    
    Anyway, what is going on - the Mancs seem to have some consistency, how
    long will this go on for. There are some hard games in October, eg the
    Arse and the Pool at OT, if 4 points are taken from these 2 games, then
    maybe the Mancs will have to be taken seriously. Time will tell.
    
    jb.

re .54
	Are you sure??? - Utd on tv
	surely they'd show the champions Live.. European cup takes a preference
over the ECWC


Mick...

    <<< Note 32.63 by ESSB::BLONG "The Scousers Trophy Cabinet is Empty" >>>
                         -< Cunno  Devoted to United >-

>    Just got a phone call from Cunno in Crete to let me know that United
>    are Drawing 0-0 at half time.
    
    
    Surely that should read;

    Just got a phone call from Cunno in Crete to let me know that United
    are Drawing 0(O)-0(O) at half time.
     
     SoToUoAoRoTo

    
    Just back from  a late lunch-hour(or two) and if thats the best that
    the current holders can do WELL ............
    
    This was PATHETIC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    United should have won this easily but they were CRAP....
    
    
    I cant see them going very far this year ,if this is the best they 
    can offer.
    
    
    cheers
    
    Liam
    

    
    re -1
    
    playing in the middle of a greek sunny afternoon. not having a full
    strength squad. crap food and only arriving yesterday. these are my
    excuses.
    
    
    anyway, this competition is who plays better over two legs, so if you
    don't play well in one game, then you have one other game to rectify
    the situation i.e. play your guts out
    
    
    so we will easily beat them at OT. maybe not as i predicted. but we'll
    see how the pool and the arse do tonight.
    
    
    macca

       
    
    	< a typical looneypool performance >
    
    	At last you admit that Liverpool were/are the kings of Europe
    	as regards British teams.
    
    	A typical looneypool performance is usually 2-0 maybe 3-0.
    
    	
    	Vinnie.
    
    
    Hope I don't regret this note.
    

    
    
    
    	Liverpool 1 up after 10 mins.   (typical looneypool)
    
    
    	 

    
    
    Brian
    
    	You better take a day off!!
    
    Looneypool 6  H.Laahti 1
    
    And they are still playing......
    
     Don't you just love it when a plan comes together! < Hannibal Smith  >
    
    

    
    
    	Oh! What a jester you are Brian!!
    
    
    

    .67,.68 and .72 appear to have been written by Bobby Robson the
    ex-England manager who obviously is now working for DEC.
    
    Have any other noters noticed this outbreak of 'Robsonism' in hear
    later?
    
    Regards,
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    
    
    Didn't Utd. lose 5-1 to the Shopkeepers X1 that Arsenal beat
    6-1 last night, in a pre-season game.
    
    
    Makes you wonder !!!!!               

What are you trying to imply... ????
I suppose that makes them 11 goals better than United does it ??

tony

    
       If that's the case then United were 6 goals better than Arsenal in
    	the rumbelows cup>>>>>>>>>
    
    	Andy
    

    
    Brian,
    
    Got ya goin I think.
    
    I never said that Austria Vienna were shopkeepers, but if you
    think that Liverpool got 6, because H.LAHTI were partimers
    what are Utd. if the Austrian's can score 5 against you lot
    and Arsenal hammer them getting 6.
    
    I would not even suggest that Arsenal are __only__ 11 goals better 
    than Utd., everyone knows that when it comes down to the wire
    Arsenal are in a different league.        
    
    Whatever the outcome of all this, happy noting and someday you
    too could score 6.......or let in 6...
    
    Vinnie.

    
        Brian,
    
    	You can come back down now!!
    
    	I would not judge any team on one performance, even Villa
    
    	Vinnie.

    Vinnie,
    
    Leave the poor Mancs supporters alone. You know they're such a
    sensitive bunch, and anyhow a 0-0 draw must count as good for a team of
    their calibre:-)
    
    Gerry

    Well,
    
    I watched United live last Saturday over here, and they were crap most
    of the game. First 15 minutes they should have had 3, then they gave up
    and let themselves play to the level of Southampton. If it was not for
    Robbo & Sparky, we'd have been in trouble. Note who is just behind us
    in the league, after their 'bad' start. 
    
    No surprise we tied in Greece. These guys should be fit - heat or no
    heat. It wasn't exactly cold for the Greeks, and with the UK weather
    you all have been boasting about to us ex-pats lately, United have no
    excuse. However, it's a long road to a cup defence, and United will
    succeed 2-0 in the next game. This new 'foreign' player rule forces
    United into trying more team players out in league games. They need 16
    players all capable of playing against any team - might just have that
    now. 
    
    Luton will be tough, but a nice gift from the schedule. Then a win
    against the Greeks on the return will set us up nicely for Liverpool -
    should be a great game. Let's face it, wherever United play is almost
    always the game of the week, with games against 'pool bigger than cup
    finals.
    
    Four points up in the league should keep us honest and hard-working.
    
    Brian - Vinnie got you!
    
    Paul

    Ok...Chaps..
    
    We had all this abuse last year...about how bad we were in the ECWC.
    And as you all know we WON IT...So shut it...I dont think anyone out
    there is eligible to critisize us. Has anybody won a European Trophy
    recently.(British clubs of course)...???    NO....  And dont start
    giving  facts which we United are always being reminded about
    HISTORY....
    
    Tony
    
    

    I know Liverpool are good, but it would be hard for them to win a
    European Trophy when they were'nt in Europe.
    
    Gerry

    re - a few back
    
    it was me that made the prediction for saturday of 5-0 against luton.
    
    however i will not withdraw it, but will settle for at least a 3-0
    scoreline
    
    then to beat the greek side in mid-week 2-0
    beat the arse as easily as luton and the same against the 'pool.?!
    
    
    now answer that one.
    
    which-ever way, we'll still be on top.
    
    
    macca 

    re .88
    I was just saying that it would be hard to win a trophy without  being
    in the competition......we all know whose fault it was! As for the
    sideboard, I doubt the Mancs will be paying any overtime to have their
    silverware cleaned.
    
    Gerry
    

    
    	After two weeks away from this place (oh it's good to be back) there
    	is much to reflect on what has been happening to Utd.
    
    	I was unfortunate to watch the Greek game live on the box. We were
    	not convincing. A tremendous save by Peter near the end of the 1st
    	half kept a clean sheet, but we really should have been 2-0 up by
    	then.
    
    	Further misses in the second half (one from Ince after a great run)
    	kept the scoreline blank. Don't believe all the rubbish about Utd
    	being fortunate - any "neutral" watching would have thought we were
    	the home side such was our domination of possession - key to
    	success in europe. I can't see us having too much diffficulty in
    	the 2nd leg.
    
    	And we're still out front in the league! Poor performance away to
    	Southampton last week but three points...recent seasons have seen
    	us struggle to get results when we play badly. Thrashed Luton 5-0
    	and the media say we didn't play too well ...?!? It'll do for me.
    
    	Thanks to Leeds on Saturday for burying their Big Match Hoodoo,
    	beating 'pool. Tough game this week (assuming we don't trip over
    	Cambridge on Wednesday in the League Cup..) away to Spurs. They're
    	scoring well.
    
    	Nice to see Utd still generate so much interest with
    	non-believers (re recent additions to this topic.. 8-))
    
    	Interesting point on the Greek game...Alan Parry reported there
    	were more Utd supporters in Athens than Athinaikos supporters...
    	goes to show how truely BIG Manchester United is around the world.
    
    	Comments please....... 8-)
    
    	Andy. 

    re -89
    
    	What did I say. 5-0 and people didn't beleive me. Huh !
    
    	Well now to Wednesday against Cambridge, I'd say 3-1 to Man Utd,
    and then away at Spurs on Saturday I would say 2 - 0 again to Utd.
    
    	If these are the correct scores, then I should at least be on TV,
    earning a bundle of dosh...
    
    	See ya on St and Greavsie.
    
    
    macca

    
    	Any win on Wednesday should prove enough for the second leg, so
    	I'll say 2-0 to us.
    
    	As for Saturday...this is likely to be our toughest test since
    	the Leeds game. I'll settle for a draw, with Lineker on the boil
    	and Durie off it, I'll go for 1-1  - Hughes and Samways scoring.
    
    	We must take at least a point away to teams like Spurs/Everton/
    	Arsenal/Leeds/Liverpool (assuming 'pool are still one of the
    	top clubs this year 8-)...) so avoiding defeat is essential. The
    	best way to do that is to keep playing the sort of attacking 
    	football we've been showing so far this season and NOT to sit
    	back.
    
    	Andy.

    The Mancs are still doing well, however, they are now into a period
    when they meet some of the bigger teams, Tottenham, Liverpool and the
    Arse in the next 3 weeks. If they are still on top at the end of
    October, then the spectre of 25 years may start to fade a little.
    
    A draw at the Totts will be a good result.
    
    jb.

    
    	re .100 (well done JB!)
    
    	Yup - you're right. The next three games should give a real 
    	indication of Utd's possibilities this year. Make no mistake,
    	I'm not predicting ANYTHING about us winning the league. So far
    	all we've won this season is a few matches. No big deal yet.
    
    	It's the stuff dreams (for us Utd fans) are made of to be still
    	ahead in May. God knows we've waited a long time. I'm prepared
    	to wait until nearer the time before saying anything too loud!
    
    	Andy.

    If things keep on at the rate they are at the moment, then the next big
    game will be Sat 28 Dec at Elland Road. 
    
    The Mancs big match readiness will be tested in the next 3 weeks,
    fortunately, there is Home advantage for the Arse and Pool games. 5
    points from these 3 games will be good going. I predict a draw at the
    Totts, a win vs the Pool and losing / draw to the Arse.
    
    jb.

    
    	I agree with JB, 5 pts from these games will be good going.
    	If we are still there or thereabouts come Oct 20th I will be
    	happy, the fixture list SHOULD be a bit easier after that.
    
    	There is still a long way to go and we have been disappointed
    	before, but I have a feeling this is our year.
    
    
    			Scott

    
    
    	re .104....  Ssssshhhhhhhhhh.......  you'll wake up those gremlins.
    
    
    				8-)
    
    
    	Andy.

    Now that I can tap into live English League telecasts, can someone
    tell me what days the league plays and starting times?
    
    For those of you in the U.S. and Canada with a satellite dish here is
    all you need to know in order to tap into the English games, thanks
    to Noter Paul Blainey, Canada. 
    
    Satellite: Galaxy 6
    Channel: 24
    
    Also,
    
    In my travels I've discussed football over a few beers in several
    countries in Europe, Asia and Central America. Whenever someone
    mentioned the word UNITED, everyone else automatically assumed it
    was the Red Devils he/she was referring to. I know of no other team
    that generates as much world-wide interest. I think the old airplane
    disaster left a permanent memory of Utd in fans everywhere that seems
    to pass on from generation to generation. Liverpool, Benfica, Milan, OM, 
    etc, are talked about often, when they are on top. Utd are talked about 
    regardless of the position they occupy in the standings.
    
    Go UTD!!
    
    JC

    
    
    
    Yes, I'm back and totally disgusted that a team as inept as the Mancs
    can lead the first division. Being totally fair and honest, I can say
    with 100% certainty that it is Liverpool's crippling injury problems
    rather than Utd's great ability that has the Mancs nine points ahead of 
    the Pool. Nevertheless, the time to celebrate is the first week in May
    when all teams have completed their 42 games. Somehow, I think that
    come this time next year, I will still be talking about 1967. While in 
    Crete, I watched the game between Utd. and Athenaikos and found with
    some pleasure that some of the local Cretians has a similar feeling to
    mine, namely, a total dis-like of Man. Utd. 
    The Mancs now have three tough games coming up against Spurs(a),
    Liverpool(H) and Arsenal(h). Defeat against the Pool and hopfully one
    of the other teams will put them off the top.
      All I can say is that even too much sun didn't affect my attitude
    towards the Mancs.
    
       Cunno.
    

    
    	re last diatribe..... 8-)
    
    	Glad to see the league-leaders are still getting under your skin,
    	Martin 8-)
    
    	Liverpool do indeed have injury problems which are preventing them
    	from displaying all their newly-aquired talent and existing 
    	experience....shame eh?
    
    	Man Utd are still where you left them - in pole position. We're
    	keeping our fingers etc crossed for May....
    
    	I would say, though, that 'pool do not look likely to win the
    	league this year. Sourpuss needs to concentrate on engendering
    	some team spirit into his bunch. I know we're not even in October
    	yet, however for all your "talking them up" they do not look like
    	a true Liverpool side YET. Maybe soon, but it might be too late 
    	for this season by then.
    
    	Your best chance is in the FA Cup - that doesn't start until early
    	January, so The Beast has until then to put his house in order.
    
        Oh, did I remember to say welcome back..? 8-)
    	
    	Andy.
    

    
    	All in all, a thoroughly satisfactory performance against
    	potentionally difficult opposition. This tie is over now
    	as a contest barring inconceivable disaster. 
    
    	Utd seem to have a Liverpool-like steel this season. We have
    	often struggled to put these sort of sides away like this.
    	These are indeed high aspirations. I only hope that we don't 
    	run into too many crippling injuries, though the squad is
    	beginning to look very capable - Sharpe, Beardsmore(who I rate	
    	highly..), Kanchelskis, McClair/Giggs all battling for a first
    	team slot.
    
    	Lets sort out the Totts on Saturday...I'm going to revise my
    	prediction to
    
    	Tottering 1-2 Utd
    
    	following Totts' banana skin last night  8-) (come in, Antony..)
    
    
    	Andy.
    

    
    It is reported that UNITED are considering a move for southamptons
    ALAN SHEARER at a staggering price of 3 million.......where will
    he play.....?????....who will they sell....if we get him maybe we
    can give back DANNY WALLACE as a thankyou present.

    
    I went to the Cambridge match on Wednesday and overall, Man U looked 
    good.
    
    The starting line-up was
    
    	      Walsh
    Phelan Bruce Pallister Irwin
     Blackmore Robson Webb Ince
          Hughes McClair
    
    They started well nice passing, creating chances etc but no goals. Then 
    something happened and Cambridge came more into the match, and right up
    until the substitution, it was a bit scrappy, with Cambridge looking the 
    more likely to score.
    
    Then Webb went off and on came Giggs and United never looked back. He
    really does look an exciting player, better in my opinion than Sharpe
    since he doesnt simply rely on speed to get him past defenders, and
    when he gets past, his crossing is excellent.
    
    His goal was class, took on a couple of defenders, waited for the keeper
    to commit himself and coolly sloted home. The second half, with the wide
    man, Man U were a different team. Both Giggs on the left and the full back
    Phelan making storming runs down the right, they really tore Cambridge 
    apart. They should have scored more...
    
    I went home happy, and so long as they play a wide man, they look good.
    Its still very early days yet, and reading the programme it was 
    interesting to note that our results so far just about match the 
    results we achieved last season against the same sides ! However, we've 
    got into a habit of not loosing, which is very important, but like 
    everyone has been saying, its the next few weeks that really are the test.
    
    John B 
    
    
    
    
        we have got so far this season
    compare to the results 

    Prediction
    Spurs 3 (Linekar 2 & Durie)
    Mancs 0
    
    Cunno.

    Latest
    
    Spurs 1 United 1
    
    Bit of a bugger Durie got the goal.............
    
    Ad

    LATEST
    
    Spurs are down to ten men Paul Stewart has been set of for a second
    bookable offence.
    
    The question is can we do the business.
    
    Ad

    FINAL SCORE
    
    SPUR'S 1   UNITED 2
    DURIE      HUGHES
    	       ROBSON
    
    Good result..........
    
    Ad		

    
    
    	re .118....
    
    	Well done, Martin. Close call   8-)
    
    
    	Andy.

    
    	Personally I hope Robbo is NOT picked for England. Two reasons:
    
    	1 - it would be a backward step for Graham Taylor, when he ought
    	to have bags of talent available with more potential, as opposed
    	to experience..Batty,Geoff Thomas,Rocastle,Michael Thomas, + a
    	few others...
    
    	2 - we want him fit! I have always thought that the one facet 
    	missing from his game preventing him being a WORLD-class player
    	has been his inability to avoid injury. The great players (with
    	the exception of when Pele was kicked to pieces in the '66 WC)
    	have had the knack of avoiding injury.
    
    	Players like Pele, Cruyff, Beckenbauer (sp), Maradonna (most of the 
    	time), Platini, new when to keep out of trouble without looking like 
    	they were shirking!
    
    	Sharpe is worrying. I was expecting him to be challenging for a
    	place very soon, but an op. is now in the balance. 8-( Get fit lad,
    	we're going to need you!
    
     	Prediction for Wednesday:
    
    	Utd 3 - 0 Athinaikos   Hughes (2), McClair
    
    	Andy.

    re. 127
    
    I'm glad there's a manc out there with a bit of sense...
    
    I hope Graham Taylor DOESN'T pick Bryan Robson for England as well!!
    Basically, because we want to win the match, and we don't want Robbos
    arms and legs falling off all over the place and getting in the way of
    the more classy players.
    
    Stew.
    

    
    I can't beleive the rubbish I have just read,how you possibly compare
    PELE,MARADONA,BECKENBOUR,with ROBSON,the difference is massive for
    a start.
    
    1.ROBSON'S roll is to win the ball,hold the midfield together,not
    doing fancy turns beating six defenders rounding the keeper and
    neatly tucking the ball away.ex.PELE MARADONA.
    
    2.He does not marshall the back-four gliding onto interseptions
    and laying the ball to his midfield,pushing forward scoring goals
    on the break.EX BECKENBOUR.
    
    3.He does not pass 40 yard balls onto his team mates toes ,come
    from deep beat defenders and score EX PLATINI.
    
    He is the best when it comes to what he does,who better to be the
    stopper in a young ENGLAND midfield when the likes of THOMAS,PLATT
    go forward.PLEASE OPEN YOUR EYES AND SEE AS HE IS "THE BEST MIDFIELDER
    IN THE COUNTRY AT PRESENT"

    I'm sorry, but how anyone can class Bryan Robson as the BEST midfielder
    in the country is completely beyond me!!!!
    
    For a start, he's too old, too slow, and too just about everything else
    detrimental...  although i'll concede on one point...  he's definately
    the best at committing fouls and getting away with it.
    
    If I was Graham Taylor, then I wouldn't even have him on my shorlist of
    possible replacements if anyone got injured. There are plenty of 'Bryan
    Robson'ish players, like Geoff Thomas, and Paul Stewart, who basically
    do the same thing, and don't get injured every other match.
    
    Stew.
    
    
    

    
    	re .129..
    
    	Nope. Sorry Mr. Operator (don't know your name I'm affraid, coz
    	you didn't sign off 8-) ) but I think Robson certainly must be
    	considered in the ALMOST World-Class (which is what I actually 
    	said...) when you look at his goal-scoring record over a ten-year
    	international career - 20-odd in 88 games, not penalties either -
    	and the reputation he has built up. Other countries respected his
    	strengths.
    
    	He doesn't have the skill of a Pele, nor the dribbling/passing of
    	a Cruyff or Maradonna , but as an all-round contributor and 
    	motivator he's right up there. 
    	
    	Don't understate his ability, either. I've seen him burst through 
    	international defences and score great goals. Just because he's 
    	English why disregard him? He's not up to it now, but during the 
    	mid-eighties he certainly was WHEN HE STAYED FIT.
    
    	I never said he was even close to Pele/Best/Cruyff etc but I 
    	recognise his undoubted talent. Maybe a poor-mans' Beckenbauer 8-)
    
	Andy.    	

    At the end of the day it's not how pretty or arty-farty a player looks
    like that counts. Look at Hoddle - he had all the skill in the world
    but when it came to top level competition he didn't produce. Robson for
    all his proneness to injury proved time and again that he could turn
    matches at the highest level - by scoring crucial goals, by making
    crucial tackles, by holding the midfield together and by being
    inspirational. In his workmanlike way he was just as effective as the
    greats mentioned earlier - and that, surely, is the test of a world
    class player. In fact Robson is an metaphor for the British game - not
    pretty but very effective.

    
    I have been amused by all this talk of Robbo. It wouldn't surprise me
    if I enter the soccer notes in the near future to find that Robbo has
    been awarded a note of his own. This Robbo-mania will have to be put to
    an end. He has been nothing more than an effective grafter in the
    middle of the field in his ten years at OT. I have seen nothing in him
    to suggest that he is another Ronnie Whelan and I am totally astonished
    that none of the previous noters even mentioned the great Ronnie...TGR.
    What a player!! He has been at Anfield for roughly the same period as
    Robbo has been at OT but that is where the similarity ends. Ronnie is
    the best midfield grafter that I have ever seen and his passing and
    defensive qualities are superb. He has also scored goals that Robbo can
    only dream about e.g., his superb volley against Russia in 1988. He has
    also inspired Liverpool to six league championships while Robbo is
    still waiting for his first medal. The following figures should tell us
    more about the two players and their value to their respective teams.
    
                    HONOURS LIST
                    ============
    
         Ronnie Whelan                     Bryan Robson
         =============                     ============
    League C'ship Medals                 League C'ship Medals
    --------------------                 --------------------
         1982
         1983
         1984
         1986
         1988
         1990
    
     F.A. Cup Medals                       F.A. Cup Medals
     ---------------                       ---------------
         1986                                 1983
         1989                                 1985
                                              1990
    
    League Cup Medals                       League Cup Medals
    -----------------                       -----------------
         1982
         1983
         1984
    
    European Cup Medals                      European Cup Medals
    -------------------                      -------------------
         1984  
         1985 (Runner-up)  
    
    European Cup winners Medals              European Cup winners Medals
    ---------------------------              ---------------------------
                                                1991 
    
     That makes it twelve top class medals for the great Ronnie and a
    paltry four for Robbo over a ten year period and Ronnie is still about
    four years younger that Robbo. In fact, Ronnie is on the verge of
    meriting a note of his very own similar to the one that I dedicated to 
    TGA. 
    BTW, prediction for Sunday.
         Man. Utd. 2 (Hughes,Giggs)
         Liverpool 3 (Rush, Saunders & Houghton)
    
          Cunno.

    at the outset i must say that i cant stand Bryan Robson.
    but then, me being a liverpool supporter, do you blame me?
    i must say however, that though i do not rate mr. robson as world class
    he has done Man Utd and England great service in his many good years.
    it will be hard for Utd to find a competent successor for him, but they
    must because being realistic his best years are indeed behind him.
    As it is, Bryan holds a great deal of respect in the league and it would
    be awful to see a well respected player like Bryan do himself
    serious permanent injury by continuing to play.
    
    Ian 'trying to be an honest Scouser'
    

    
    
    Changing the subject a little. My prediction for Saturday.
    
    MAN UTD 3 	liverpool 0
    
    with Bryan Robson getting a hat-trick ??!@!!!!
    
    
    macca
    

    
    	re .134..
    
    	Well done, Ian...a very fair and balanced view - you successfully 
    	retreived the situation for you scousers after reading Martin's 
    	diatribe in .133! 8-)
    
    	I suppose it's the only way he can get the "conversation" around
    	to talking (to himself) about Whelan. Has Ronnie taken over from
    	TGD (aka Tranmere's no.9) as Martin's secret love? I think we
    	should be told.
    
    	Andy.
        

    prediction for Saturday...
    
    Man. Utd. 		0
    Liverpool		0
    
    ...basically because the game is being played on SUNDAY!!!
    
    so, prediction for Sunday...
    
    Man. Utd.		0
    Liverpool		4
    
    ...the 'pool to repeat their 4:0 drubbing of the mancs at around the
    same time last season, with Deano getting all four!!
    
    Stew.
    

    
    	re last 8-)
    
    	..can I have some of that stuff you're smoking Stew... 8-)
    
    	Andy.

    
    A PREDICTION FOR UNITED FOLLOWING TWO GAMES :-
    
    UNITED  3   V   PAE AT?  1
    
    UNITED  2   V   POOL  1
    
    The hard game comes on 19th October against Arensal if we get a draw
    it will be a good result.........
    
    Ad

RE .140

I believe the 19th October will be a hard game but United will win & the result
will be justified!!!


Si

    Last nights result
    
              CUP WINNERS CUP First Round Second Leg
    
    Man Utd 2 (Hughes 109, McClair 111) PAE Athinakos 0  AET
    
    Att 35,023
	
    Report anyone ???
    	From what I hear/read Utd were quite lucky, and have Schmecheil to
    thank a lot for !!!!?
    
    macca

    
    	Not lucky particularly - more frustrating! It seemed like we were
    	never going to score. The Greeks offered little but defended
    	resolutely and played with a lot of passion. If they had nicked
    	a goal in the 90 mins then things could have got very
    	uncomfortable! Peter the Great Dane earned his pay by doing his
    	job on two occasions, but really McClair and Hughes had enough
    	chances to bury the game.
    
    	Only after sending the Honeymonster up field to act as a target
    	for the high ball did we score, and what a beauty by Hughes after
    	the required head-on by Pally! Hughes nearly burst the net with
    	a tremendous flighing left-foot volley.
    
    	Two minutes later and a good through-ball from Bruce (?) found
    	McClair in space to run into the box and finish off in style.
    
    	The game fizzled out with the Greeks happy to go home losing
    	only 2-0 on aggregate to United.
    
    	Ourselves and Celtic are the only British teams to progress 
    	without losing the away tie, and United didn't concede a goal
    	in three and a half hours, so although we made heavy weather
    	of it we're in the hat for round 2.
    
    	Andy.
    

    Just thought I'd congratulate United on just about managing to scrape
    into the next round of the Cup Winners Cup, by beating the team that
    are currently BOTTOM of the Greek 1st (or whichever div. they play in).
    
    All I can say is, I'm glad I wasn't one of those poor 7 or 8 Man. Utd.
    supporters that we saw on telly last night, who had to sit through the
    entire match... 8-)
    
    Stew.
    

    Re -1
    
    Brian, 
          enjoy it while it lasts.
    
    Noel

    What's the starting time for the Sunday game against Liverpool?
    I would appreciate it if someone replied today for I'm off tomorrow
    and would hate to miss what I think will be the trashing of the year.
    
    Thanks,
    JC

    
    I BELIEVE THAT THE KICK OF TIME IS AT 3.00 BUT COVERAGE START'S
    AT 2.50.
    
    COULD SOMEONE CONFIRM THIS.
    
    AD

    3.00pm Sunday 6th October 1991
    
    The time of Liverpools' first goal is 3.00:10...
    
    Deano the scorer, and he'll go on to complete a first half hatrick,
    with the final score 4:0 to Liverpool.
    
    Stew.
    
    
    
    
    

    3.05 actually

    You Liverpool fans have a lot of nerver to loggin to this topic and
    talk about trashing the Mancs just after your sorry team lost to
    a group of amateurs. The way the pool has been playing this season
    they couldn't beat their own grandmothers.
    
    I suggest you follow (now-humble) Cunno' example and resort to HISTORICAL
    STATISTICS anytime you're looking for something good to say about that 
    sorry lot from Anfield.
    
    UTD is on top to stay. The Glory days are back at OT.
    
    JC

                      what glory days?
      enjoy your little stay at the top it wont last long.
    
    prediction    POOL  2    saunders,rushie
    
                 mancs   0
    
                                           Tony.

    
    	re .151...
    
    	Don't they just, JC?! Even Martin is keeping his thoughts to
    	himself at the moment.
    
    	Especially after bleating on in the Liverpool topic about how 
    	everyone was beating them, up and telling us to keep out!! Ha Ha.
    	
    	They'll be very quiet on Monday....
    
    	Andy.

    i wont be quiet andy...
    prediction....
    
    LIVERPOOL 0	
    MAN UTD   1   hughes 74
    
    you may think this 'unpatriotic' so to speak, but i am also predicting
    that Liverpool will stuff Utd in the return match and that Utd will
    NOT win the league. so there, nur!
    Ian
    

    Re last
    
    Don't write Pallister out yet; he has a fitness test tomorrow morning.
    
    I wonder who will give United the penalty this time? We've had Nichol
    waving at the ball on year, Hysen's volley ball flap last year.
    
    Will Ronnie repeat his wonderful chip shot? Oh, o course, I forgot,
    Ronnie won't be playing -- he's played less games in the last two
    seasons than Capt Marvel|Cripple has this season.

    re last
    
    All I can say is that I hope Paul Parker's playing, 'cos then at least
    we're guarenteed a couple of own goals...
    
    Then, due to Uniteds inadequacies up front, the 'pool are bound to run
    out worthy winners. ;-)
    
    Stew.
    

    
    	Forget any ideas of a walk-over, lads.....Liverpool will raise
    	their game for this one, you better believe it! After Everton, 
    	they like giving us a game the most!
    
    	I should think a few ears are still ringing from The Beast's 
    	onslaught after Wednesday night's game in Finland...8-)
    
    	I'll stick to my 2-1 prediction, but it will be close.
        
    	Andy.

    re last
    
    With Rushie scoring both Liverpool goals no doubt... 8-)
    
    Stew.
    

Remember Barcelona were the best team in Europe....and we all know what
happened  to them......

So, they should be more worried...!!

Athletico who..??

Tony

    I'm afraid Strachan showed himself up when he was trying to be funny.
    Ablett went because his was a second bookable offence; nothing to do
    with whether or not Konchelskis could score from that position.
    
    Hughes' 'head butt' wouldn't have caused a ripple on water, but Burrows
    reaction got Hughes sent off -- poetic justice really after what Hughes
    did to that Montpellier guy.
    
    I used to think Grobelaar came out for some balls that just weren't his
    but Hooper is something else. WOn't be long before he finds himself
    stranded in the middle of his own half & the ball sailing over his
    head. He was also lucky to get away with that 'hand ball' outside the
    area. Vinny Jones gave away a penalty for an identical thing against
    Arsenal; ball hitting arm.

Re. 163
 
	
>Don't be silly Juanjo, these boyos don't go to Manchester to watch a
>match never mind Madrid ;-)

Dont talk rubbish pal...What do you know about support..We are there every week

For your information 	K stand, ROW 29,  Seat 62 and 63.. Pop in and see us 
sometime...


Tony

    
    Re :Hughes.
    
    The intent was there. Off you go my son.
    
    
    JN.

    Not a wonderful game, too much niggle and balls going astray, ie a
    typical tension packed crucial match. Hughes might not have intened to
    nut somebody, but it looked like it, and the ref sent him off
    immediately, it wasn't borderline. The Mancs have the Arse (3rd) in 2
    weeks, and Sheff Wed (4th) the week after. 2 points from those games
    will be good, any more a bonus. I expect the Mancs will be top (by goal
    difference) at the end of October.
    
    jb.
    

    
    Great result for the Pool who I thought could have taken the three
    points if they had a bit more conviction against a Utd side totally
    devoid of any ideas for a team that are leading the table. I thought
    that Nick Tanner was man of the match just shading it from Burrows. How 
    Robbo could be the MOM is beyond me. The ref was totally right in
    sending off Hughes. He has been tolerated for far too long now and his
    blatant head butt was there for all to see. However, the sending off of
    Ablett was a bit harsh. The Utd. player was going nowhere. I was also
    very pleased with the performance of new boy Jones. Once again, a bit
    unlucky not to have the three points.
    
        Cunno.
    

    re .166
    
    Sorry if I upset you Tony. You didn't notice my ;-) ?
    
    The lack of "I-was-there" match reports in this note, compared with 
    others, led me to assume that none of you Mancs attend matches.

    re .169
    
    Martin, which match were you watching? Doesn't seem to be the one I saw
    from the comfort of my armchair.
    
    Were you impressed with Phelan? Wrapped Walters up good and proper.
    
    My main impression of the 'match' was that both sides were intent of
    intimidating each other rather than getting on with the football. When
    United finally got down to it, they took Liverpool apart and should
    have had 2 or 3 goals. 

From CEEFAX:

Brian Robson has been included in the England squad to face Turkey next week.

From what I've seen of him over the last few weeks, it is well deserved.
Even if he doesn't play, I'm in no doubt that his mere presence will lift the 
whole squad.

I just hope he doesn't get injured.

	Al

    re: .155
    > ESSB::BLONG
    
    > Let's be honest, if we don't beat this crap Looneypool side, we
    > should not be TOP of the league.
    
    Dont you just HATE it when that happens Brian?
    
    Ian :-)
    
    

    I see we're back onto the Robbo debate...
    
    He was totally outplayed by David Burrows in the middle of the park,
    and anyone who believes he's still good enough to wear an England shirt
    needs to have their head seen to!!
    Admittedly he has great leadership qualities and can be inspirational
    at times, but his lack of pace was there for all to see yesterday. He
    can no longer keep up with the game.
    
    By the way, I thought the 'pool deserved at least the draw they got
    yesterday. The United defence still looks a bit shaky under pressure.
    Pity we didn't manage to put them under much though... You couldn't
    really argue about either sending off... Ablett for two bookable
    offences, the ref had no choice really, and Hughes for a headbutt.
    Dirty fouler!! Bryan Robson yet again managed to get away with stamping
    on Mike Marsh whilst he was on the ground. That got him my vote for
    missed foul of the match, with Kanchelsis winning best dive, and Ince
    biggest whinger...
    
    Performance of the day had to be Rob Jones though... unbelieveable!!!
    
    Stew.
    

    > I see we're back onto the Robbo debate...
    
    I assume the "we're" refers to Liverpool fans. We United fans are very,
    bery happy with his performances. Yesterday despite having Burrows &
    McMahon marking him, he was still MOM.
    
    The reason you thought Burrows outplayed Robson is, apart from your
    glasses being steamed up, that marking someone is far easier than being
    creative, driving your team forward, almost scoring etc. Being
    destructive rather than creative is so much easier. And if robson has a
    lack of pace then McMahon should retire now; McMahon was ponderous  
    beyond belief.

    Robson hasn't been injured so far this season. When he does, then Man U
    will miss him. Whether he plays vs the Turks or not doesn't matter,
    having him in the squad will help motivate the rest, especially if he's
    one of the subs. He hasn't had his day yet at England level, but I
    don't see him figuring in Sweden.
    
    jb.

    
    
    >one of the subs. He hasn't had his day yet at England level, but I
    >don't see him figuring in Sweden.
    
    Neither do I but then hopefully the rest of the England squad will have
    their feet up in front of the telly.
    
    Gary.

    
    RE: -1. 8-) Nice one Gary. You can always hope.
    

    re. 175
    
    I don't wear glasses!! 8-)
    
    As for McMahon not having any pace, has this ever been in question??
    
    But, I know I'd rather have Daavid Burrows in my team ahead of Bryan
    Robson any day...
    
    Stew.
    

    As a neutral, who watched the game on the telly, its funny to see the
    extreme sides of the interpretations of the match....i thought this
    biased banter was restricted only to the Celtic/rangers notes files.
    
    Nuetral verdict...both sendings off totally justified (Im a ref), and
    Abletts sending off was not for a professional foul but for 2 bookable
    offences...Strachan (and the Saint, for an unbiased view) opinion that
    it wasnt a bad foul is ludicrous..to me a player who had no intention
    of palying the ball, but rather the man is guilty of a bookable offence
    regardless of the 'severity of the foul'.  I felt Burrows did not make
    a meal over the Hughes incident..a player who srikes, or attempts to
    stike is guilty of Violent conduct.
    
    As for midfield players I felt Robson was superb in the 1st half but
    quiet in the 2nd, but you dont see all the hard work he may be doing of
    the ball, on the telly. He would be in my team anyday, as long as he
    can deliver the goods...as Strachan should have been picked earlier for
    Scotland following his excellent form last season.
    
    Overall the game was a bit scrappy, but exciting, and a draw was
    probably about right.  Im sure Liverpool are pleased with their
    youngsters and new signing..showing lots of promise.
    Nuetrally yours
    Paul  

    
    	Ok guys....my dad's bigger than your dad, etc.....
    
    	Now can we get back to talking about football...please? ;-)
    
    	We don't want to bring it down to .....no, I won't say that..;-)
    
    	I thought the game on Sunday was poor. No, I didn't go.  There are
    	lots of good reasons for that which have sod all to do with you ;-)
    	and don't detract from my love of the game and United in
    	particular one iota.....8-)
    	
    	Utd didn't create too many real chances for all the possession we 
    	had, and Liverpool did a tidy job of keeping the game in check, 
    	although they actually created very few chances if any. 
    
    	Both sendings-off were deserved. It hurts me to see any Utd player
    	have to walk, but for what Mark did - whether he made contact is
    	irrelevant, and don't blame Burrows for doing what Mark would have
    	done too - there is no excuse WHATSOEVER. Off you go. 
    
    	Ablett was a little more unfortunate, but I think you'll find he 
    	had already p*ssed the ref off in the first half...anyone see 
    	Ablett physically jostling the ref in the Liverpool penalty area 
    	after he awarded Utd a corner? He was lucky not to be booked for 
    	that alone! And he had already been booked, so Martin's "point" 
    	about "Kanchelskis going nowhere" is also irrelevant. He chopped 
    	him. Off. Not on the strength of one incident but an accumulation.
    
    	Liverpool probably deserved the draw. I expect Sourpuss was happy.
    	It says something, though, when we're here disappointed not to win
    	against Liverpool, and there lot happy to get a point. Maybe times
    	are changing...?
    
    	Both sides will play much better this season. There was too much
    	to lose for Kiverpool to come out and play, and Utd couldn't break
    	them down. MotM for me was the young full-back Jones, if only for
    	the way he handled the pressure at such short notice!
    
    	But when Ian St.John picks a non-Liverpool player, well that
    	really is something!!
    
    	Andy.
           
    

    Re: last
    
    Have to agree with you Andy, I thought the boy Jones should have been
    given MotM.I also have to say that Utd. didn't look like a team capable
    of winning the League(I know it's only one game)
    
    I think the 19th will tell alot.
    
    Noel

    thanks for that unbiased report andy, i too thought Jones was MOM.
    i must disagree about Iain St John however, weve always said hes been
    biased AGAINST liverpool because he doesnt want to appear biased
    towards them. in fact ive always hated the guy for being
    anti-liverpool.
    strange but true,
    Ian.
    

    	re .184...
    
    	Yes...good point Ian. I must admit it didn't occur to me like that
    	but now you mention it he has been very (over-?) critical of the
    	Liverpool regime lately - ever since the Kenny incident, I guess.
    
    	I think it might have something to do with his memories of the 
    	Liverpool Of Yor, of which he was partly involved ;-) . This
    	may a rathole and maybe best discussed in the 'pool note, but
    	perhaps he yearns for a return to the glory glory years of the
    	sixties/seventies (cue Martin....8-) ). 
    
    	Personally, I think it's a little bit sad when someone like Saint
    	harps on about "not like the old days" when he really wishes he
    	was out there still playing. Funny thing is, I don't really think
    	of him as a creative footballing legend! More a destructive
    	midfield tiger.
    
    	Oh, well...back to United issues....
    
    	Andy.

    
    As a neutral (I hate both teams,but still payed the touts 25 pounds
    for an eleven pound ticket) I must say this match was ,for supposedly
    two of the "big five" a vast dissapointment.
    Even the "excitement " of visiting old trafford was lessened by the
    match or so called match.
    I think it all started when they played "the rocky tune"(honest)
    as the teams entered the arena.
    I had a seat three rows in from the touch-line ,just where abblett
    got sent off.It was harsh but he was booked already and deserved to go.
    The hughes incident was six of one ,half a dozen of the other.Bugsy 
    held hughes on the ground and both of them were lashing-out at each
    other before they got up.Disgraceful for professionals.
    There was proably only two shots on goal in the whole match and i have
    never seen liverpool playing for a draw ,They should have played rush
    and deano (what !!!!!!!!! they were playing)
    My mom would have been ,Wait for it  INCE ????????????????
    He was the only one who wanted to win the game (even though i dont like
    him  because of his winging and mouthing to officials).
    
    A lot has been said about this match in the previous notes and i would
    like to see it again on video but i was very dissapointed especially
    as my beloved EVERTON served me up a treat the day before.
    
    WHY are Everton midtable and these two mediocre teams above them ????
    
    
    
    Cheers
    
    Liam
    ( P.S. this is as impartial  as i get.)
    (P.P.S. Arsenal will have no problem on the 19th Honest !!!!)

United to beat Cambridge 3 - 0!

    Ref: .176
    
    >..but I don't see him figuring in Sweden.
    
    England is not going to Sweden, you're coming to Foxboro, Mass. 
    Ireland is going to Sweden.
    
    JC

    
    	We've drawn Portsmouth at home in the 3rd round ofthe League
    	(Rumbelows!) Cup.
    
    	Several of my mates down here on the sarff coast are Pompey nuts 
    	(they must be!!) and are likely to take trip up for this, so we 
    	could be sharing the wheels and coming up for this one!
    
    	Can't see us having too much trouble with them. They're going well
    	in Div.2 at the moment but they're not promotion material.
    
    	Andy.

    
    Wot Phelan out with broken ribs ???
    
    
    He was sculling points back in our hotel on sunday night only two
    hours after the match.Didn,t look to sore to me.
    
    
    
    Liam

    
    The Ronnie Whelan Testimonial Dinner.
    ====================================
    Last Saturday night, two friends and I attended the testimonial dinner
    of a player who is universally regarded as the best midfielder of the
    last ten years, Ronnie Whelan. It was a very enjoyable night with
    plenty of opportunity of meeting the players who were all very mannerly
    with the exception of former Liverpool great, Terry McDermott who was
    out of his tree and quite embarrassing. 
    Jimmy McGee was the presenter for the night and the guest speaker was
    Tommy Docerty who was also very nice to talk to, despite being a former
    manager of the Mancs. John Barnes was also there and from what I saw,
    he will be out of action for a considerable time yet as he is still
    hobbling around on two crutches. The award for poser of the night must
    go to Barry Venison who obviously spends more time at the hairdresser's
    than on the football field.
    Highlight of the night was meeting TGA as well as the great Ronnie
    Whelan himself who is also easy to approach. I had photos taken with
    the following people:
                         John Aldridge
                         Ronnie Whelan
                         Ronnie Whelan Snr
                         Elaine Whelan
                         Jack Charlton
                         Maurice Setters
                         John Barnes
                         Barry Venison
                         Nicky Tanner
                         Mike Hooper
                         Terry McDermott
                         Phil Thompson
                         David Fairclough
                         Sammy Lee
                         David O'leary
                         Steve Staunton
                         Andy Townsend
                         Terry Phelan
                         Kevin Sheedy
           and some more that I can't remember.
    There were also two comedians there, Scousers Stan Bordman and
    impressionist Kevin Connolly who was absolutely brilliant at taking off
    Clough, Charlton, Motson, Beardsley, etc.
    Once again, an excellent night.
    
        Cunno.
                              

    
    Re .194
    
    
    YAWN !!!
    
           

    Methinks it's 'psychological warfare' to worry Manc supporters that
    they have nobody as 'great' as blah blah............
    
    Now who were you saying was out of their tree ?
    
    jb.

    
    	re .194...
    
    	I think you might a slight mistake, Martin....8-)
     	
    	it should have gone in note 34 surely?  ;-)
     
    	Andy.

    
    My apologies,
                note 32.194 should have been entered in note 34 but the
    exercise has not been a total loss as I now have learned that Manc fans
    can both read and count.
    
        Cunno.

    Yes Martin,
    
    We have counted the goals Rush has scored against us and that was easy
    and we have counted the points you are behing and that is growing.
    
    Regarding out of their tree, United players could always hold their
    sauce. 
    
    

    Brian,
    
    What score did the Doc say the Arsenal were going to beat you by on
    Sat?
    
    Noel

	re .185

>    	of him as a creative footballing legend! More a destructive
>    	midfield tiger.

	Err, wasn't St. John's position centre forward?

	In my day they had real positions, like centre forward, not strikers,
	mumble, mumble, mumble ...

	Senile of Spitbrook 

    What time is kick-off tomorrow?
    
    JC

    
    	This weekend's game against Arsenal will prove to be our toughest
    	test so far this season. Arsenal are likely to test the 1st
    	division's meanest defence quite considerably, with their talent 
    	in the forward line AND on the bench...However, they have looked
    	occasionally shakey at the back, so I'll go for a draw. A win would
    	be a tremendous result for Utd - a real six-pointer - but
    	realistically a draw here will keep us ticking over and still out
    	in front. Defeat would not be a disaster but might then become a
    	very bad habit !!
    
    	So,
    
    		Utd 1 - 1 Arsenal    Hughes 23mins, Campbell 57mins...
    
    	...and let's have no handbag-swinging, hair-pulling, feigning
    	assault, diving in the box (Mr. Limp etc.)....Just a good, honest,
    	hard English League match of FOOTBALL.
    
    	Andy.

    A 1-1 draw (as predicted by the whole world) between the Mancs and the
    Arse left the Mancs still at the top of Div 1, 2 points above Leeds
    United, 6 points above Man City and the Arse. A tough European game
    awits midweek, and then it's off to Hillsborough to play the other team
    of high flying Yorkshiremen, Sheffield Wednesday, where a draw will be
    a creditable performance.
    
    It now looks like the Mancs could be real title contenders, how long
    can they stay unbeaten for ?
    
    nb - the top of Div 1 looks good, Man U, Leeds United, Man C, Sheff
    Wed, no Scouse, and v. little London !!
    
    jb.

    
    	re .206..
    
    	Yes Jb, 'tis a joy to see the two Manchester teams, Sheff.Wed.and
    	Leeds (Leeds Leeds) in the top five. Only Arsenal are in the way.
    	Also Coventry and Palace are following up. Liverpool? Nowhere..
    	Everton? Nowhere...Even Forest are disappointing.
    
    	As widely predicted, a 1-1 draw on Saturday. A brilliant goal
    	from Rocastle cancelled out by a header from Bruce in the first
    	half. United dominated the second half with good passing football,
    	but a draw seemed about right.
    
    	We're still unbeaten and looking mean in defence. How long can this
    	continue? Lets hope 'til May .... 8-) (some hope!!)
    
    	Tough game Wednesday. If we can get back to OT still level I will
    	be absolutely delighted. Hillsborough Saturday. I think we need to 
    	win this "six-pointer" and get back on the winning trail after two
    	draws (Liverpool and Arsenal, both at home..).
    
    	Nice to see the reports about the standard of Saturday's game,
    	where both sides played good football, rather than the unsavoury
    	nonsense from last season.
    
    	Andy.

    How did WEBB play,could'nt tell by the highlights on sunday.The
    crowd were'nt to please about the decision,did he run out of steam,
    he did'nt seem to pleased.

    Webb had an outstanding game..His commitment was 100% and he seemed to
    be everywhere. Although the papers had Bruce as Man-of-the-match I
    thought Webb wasn't too far away. I am not sure why he was substituted
    it must have been due to lack of match fitness, he has been away for a
    few weeks injured. I for one would have taken McClair off who I thought
    had a stinker. In saying that he did nearly score with a low drive that
    hit the post just after the substitution.
    Looking forward to Wednesdays game against Atletico Madrid, a tough
    game a 1-1 scoreline will do me fine..
    
    tony

    Webb played very well; pulled off to save him for Wednesday -- also his
    fisrt game for about 3 weeks.
    
    
    United made a mess of things; should have won easily but Giggs's
    inexperience showed, and the post saved Arsenal twice.
    
    Good header by Schmeical though!
    
    When is a goal an own goal? Some papers said it was an og, others said
    Rocastle scored. WHo officially decides? It had to go down as an og as
    far as I was concerned; if it hadn't hit Schmeichal the ball wouldn't
    have gone in.

>>>    When is a goal an own goal? Some papers said it was an og, others said
>>>    Rocastle scored. WHo officially decides? It had to go down as an og as
>>>    far as I was concerned; if it hadn't hit Schmeichal the ball wouldn't
>>>    have gone in.
    
    It's up to the club, Everton awarded some ridiculous own-goals to their
    players last season - I'd give it to Rocastle, I saw the shot on
    Granada goals and thought it was a cracking shot anyway.
    
    Paul

    Essb::Bree
    
    I just hopped oever from note 30...and I hope Utd stuff Arsenal
    for the title.
    
    Rgrds to my favourite nephew...
    
    Your  Old Uncle Tom 

    
    	re .211..etc
    
    	I'd give it to Rocastle too. Crackin' shot, deserved a goal IMO.
    	Tough on Peter, coz it's true to say it wouldn't have gone in if
    	it hadn't rebounded in off him, but I like to see the player making
    	the shot getting the credit in those situations, rather than the
    	'negative' (sort-of..) own goal award. Just my opinion..
    
    	I guess we could say we were unlucky not to win, but these things 
    	have a habit of evening themselves out....remember the Leeds and
    	Everton games ...?
    	
    	No worries on the Webb front either. Alex was keeping some gas in
    	the tank for the coming games whilst Neil gets back his match
    	fitness.
    
    	Andy.

    
    A good result from Liverpool's point of view who had a very good 2-2 
    away draw at Chelsea. The Pool are now just 11 points behind the scum
    from OT and I'm sure that when the pressure builds up that the Mancs
    will falter. Right now, I detest the Mancs and the boring Arse and if
    one of them were to finish ahead of the Pool, then I would opt for the
    lesser of the two evils and accept grudgingly the Arse as title
    winners.
    
       Cunno.

    re -1
    
    Not a happy man !
    
    jb.

    
    	re .214..
    
    	Ease up, Martin....always look on the bright side....8-)
    
    	..funny how you always seem to hit the United note before your
    	beloved Liverpool note...why is this? Are you a closet Utd fan?
    	I think we should be told....

    	Andy.

    Actually I agree with Cunno, Liverpool getting a draw at Stamford Bidge
    is a very creditable result - if not absolutely amazing! Didn't Chelsea
    turn up?
    
    Even though I'm a blue, nice to see Robson answer his critics once
    again. I always said he was to good for United.... ;-)
    
    
    		Steve

    	..*and* City won too, Steve ;-)
    
    	Mind you, it was away to Spurs, so that doesn't really count does 
    	it....
    
    	Andy.

    re .220
    
    Did it say how much George Best had had to drink when he wrote this
    article for The Star?? ;-)
    
    Stew.
    

    
    	...Yeah...you asked for that Brian  8-)
    
    	Andy.

    Re your injuries.....What has happened to that Russian(?) forward?? - 
    
    Is it Konchelski ?? whats the matter with him??
    
    Kevin

    Why has he not been playing recently or has ???
    
    Is Giggs keeping him out of the side??

    
    	re Kanchelskis..
    
    	He has been playing - albeit mostly as sub...
    
    	Bit of a secret weapon but lacks the stamina (for now..) of the
    	100mph English first division.
    
    	Andy.

    
    I feel that the Mancs will be sfuffed by Futre, Schuster and co.
    tomorrow night as the Mancs don't have the class to deal with that sort
    of opposition. I predict a 3-1 scoreline with Futre scoring twice and
    the other from Schuster with captain what's his name grabbing a 
    consolation goal.
    
       Here's hoping,
          Cunno.

    
    	Thanks for those fraternal good wishes, Martin 8-)
    
    	" Do unto those..."
    
    
    	Andy.

    The match may not be live, as Jesus Gil is in dispute with the local TV
    company who provide the pictures to ITV. ITV sport is trying to sort it
    out.
    
    jb.

    
    	re .230..
    
    	Oh gloom! I had the tinnies in and everything....even got the wife
    	out of the way for the evening! 8-) Sigh...may have to make do with
    	just the Liverpool game then.
    
    	Andy.

    
    	Thanks, Juanjo. I knew we could rely on you for up-to-the-minute
    	info! Maybe we'll see it live after all.
    
    	Andy.

    re -1
    
    Is the gist of this reply :-
    
    'The Mancs will get stuffed by Athletico and it isn't live on the box'
    
    I think a 1-1 or a 2-1 to Athletico will be the result, hopefully the
    Mancs will at least get an away goal, or better still win, but I doubt
    that.
    
    jb.
    
    

    Hi Juan,
    
    	Nice to see you haven't lost the noting knack! ;-)
    
    	
    	Stay sober 'till sunset
    
    	Steve

    
    Apparantly Parker's in (according to today's Reading Evening Post)
    after nine games of inactivity.  Rumours are that Kancheleskis will 
    be in at the start instead of McClair.
    
    
    Nev.

    Weren't Barcelona supposed to stuff us as well ?
    
    Re: last Saturday - Webby was SSSLLLLOOOWWWW!!!!. McClair played a
    cracker - there is a game off the ball you know - must have been the
    cry baby scouser who made that comment. They only watch the ball
    anyway, which is why we nutmeg 'em most times when we take points off
    them. I see King Kenny has found a more meaningful trophy cab to fill -
    at least it has some history behind it, some metal, not like the
    looneytune cab, which has always been plastic!
    
    

    What was tonight's score then..............?

    
    Atletico Madrid.........3  Manchester United.........0
    
    Atletico scored two goals in the last two minutes !

    I listened to the whole match on Radio 5 last night and while its
    hard to understand what really happened without watching the match, the
    commentators insisted that the first two Goals were scored from
    offside positions while on the break.
    
    United seemed to control most of the pay but when we conceeded three goals  
    Athletico much have of being doing something right.
    
    We also had a goal disallowed, but If we are to have any chance of
    qualifying we must stop the Athletico breaks.
    
    Schmical was pretty bad. After messing up with the first goal his
    confidence was low and he made many silly mistakes.
    
    Ah Well Perhaps this means we can concentrate on the league this year
    
    	Chris
    

    Oh well, never mind eh??
    
    At least you're still top of the league... just about, anyway, but not
    for much longer!! 8-)
    
    Looks as though there's only going to be one English club left in each
    competition after this round...
    Arsenal, Tottenham, and Liverpool...
    
    Stew.
    

    
    
    ...if Auxerre score an early(ish) goal at Anfield - and if last night's
    defensive display is anything to go by they should - Liverpool will
    have the proverbial 'mountain to climb'.
    
    And the Beast's track record will remain intact!
    
    
    Michael
    

    
    Even without an early goal Auxerre shouldbe good enough to qualify. 
    They finished 3rd last season in the French league behind Marseille and
    Monaco.  They looked a far better side last night.  They have a good
    defence and unless they are intimidated by Anfield they should
    progress.  Ferreri really should have killed the tie but failed to
    score after rounding Grobbelaer.
    
    Gary.

re -1
    >So, fair play was present both at the field and terraces, but not 
    >for Ferguson, who, after the match, denied to be interviewed by 
    >Spanish journalists and added a "nothing to say; what I must say, I 
    >have said it to the British journalists" (anyway, for sure, it was 
    >irrelevant).
    
    What do you expect from Ferguson anyway ?
    
    jb.
    

    To all those out there who are dissapointed with last nights loss,
    don't worry! I have confidence in the mancs,and expect them to narrowly
    beat athletico by forcing them, to extra time and winning 4-0!!!!!
    
    Juan- soon you will be smiling no more!!!!
    
    
    Scoreline-  Manchester united (2)4-0(0) Athletico de Madrid
    
    
    		Hughes (67.117)
    		Kanchelskis(50)
    		Robson(20)
    
    
    	Come on you mancs!!!
    
    
    	The chosen one
    
    	Greg.

re -253
    >So, fair play was present both at the field and terraces, but not 
    >for Ferguson, who, after the match, denied to be interviewed by 
    >Spanish journalists and added a "nothing to say; what I must say, I 
    >have said it to the British journalists" (anyway, for sure, it was 
    >irrelevant).
    
    >>What do you expect from Ferguson anyway ?
    >>
    >>jb.
    
    Perhaps that's typical of him, but here in Spain we don't know.
    

    
re.-2
        
    I'll have a pint of whatever that man has been drinking !!!!
    
    There's as much chance of United scoring 4 against Atletico,as Celtic
    have of turning their tie around !!!!
    
    predictions for European matches involving British teams:
    
    Manchester United  1:1   Atletico Madrid   (Agg.1-4)
    Liverpool          2:1   Auxerre           (Agg.2-3
    Arsenal            2:1   Benfica           (Agg.3-2)
    Porto              2:0   Tottenham Hotspur (Agg.3-3,Porto on away goals)
    Celtic             3:1   Neuchatel Xamax   (Agg.4-6)
    

    A PINT?????
    
    I've drunk the whole barrel mate!!!
    
    You are right about Celtic, but the mancs? I have to disagree.
    
    4-0 it is then
    
    
    greg.

    re .254
    
    I'll have a pint of whatever you're on as well. I 'specially liked the
    way the half time predictiion was 2-0 on the scoreboard, but the second
    goal didn't get scored until the 50th minute. Nice one :-)
    
    
    
    On a serious note, I hope the keeper does not now become the victim of
    a witch-hunt after one bad game. He has done very well up to now. I
    seem to remember Jim Leighton making a similar mistake (against
    Southampton, I think) and was never the same player afterwards because
    the media started the whole Scottish 'keeper thing, the fans got on his
    back, and that, as they say, was that. Finishing a players career can
    be as simple as that sometimes.  
    
    Declan
    

>>    To all those out there who are dissapointed with last nights loss,
>>    don't worry! 

	Greg, Dissappointed...but no worry...North Londons still there...

	Athletico will defend as all European teams know how, so I'll
	go for Man Utd to win at home 2-1 ... I hope it is 4-0 but some
	how I dont think so...

    
    	re .252..
    
    	Great report...thanks Jaunjo.
    
    	I listened to the game live too on Radio 5, and whilst I agree
    	there was some Dennis Law consternation at particularly the second
    	goal, I would say that we got what we deserved. Besides, Dennis
    	isn't too neutral is he? 8-)
    
    	We had played cautiously after half time, when the discussion at
    	0-1 was "should United look for the away goal?"...United defended
    	effectively and a 1-0 defeat would have been Ok, but to concede
    	two goals in the last 4 minutes in a tie like this is
    	unforgiveable. No wonder Fergie was speechless. He was probably
    	shaking with rage too!!
    
    	We have to be realistic (unlike some others who think Liverpool
    	have *any* chance...8-)) and accept that our fine run in this
    	competition, stretching back last season too, is at an end to
    	a very good team like Athletico. Credit to them. I hope some
    	good comes out of this and we pull ourselves together for a
    	tough game tomorrow at Hillsborough.
    
    	I'll go for a 2-1 win, with Giggs and McClair getting the goals
    	for United.
    
    	Last point - thank GOD I didn't get the chance to watch Wednesday's
    	game live on TV....I might have done something regrettable after
    	an hour and a half of hope!
    
    	Andy.

    re prev.
    
    I reckon 2:1 sounds like a fair result...
    ...with Hirst getting both the Wednesday goals. 8-)
    
    If United lose, and Leeds win, won't Leeds go top???
    I don't know which is the greater (or should that be lesser??) of the
    two evils... 
    
    If the 'pool manage to beat Coventry (they should be sent there if they
    can't!!), then I think we move up to 17th, or something like that. 8-)
    But, am I worried?? Nah!! Once we've won tomorrow, dispatched port Vale
    in the cup next week, and beaten Auxerre 3:0 at home everything will be
    just great...
    
    Stew.
     

    The mancs stay top if they :-
    
    Win.
    Draw and Leeds don't beat Oldham by 3 goals.
    Leeds don't win.
    
    Tomorrow's game vs Wednesday should be interesting - will the Mancs hit
    back, or have they been demoralised and suffer their first league
    defest. I will be listening in tomorrow afternoon, whilst watching
    Oldham get beaten at Elland Road.
    
    jb.

    
    	re .261...
    
    	Stew, if you were a *true* Lancastrian, you wouldn't need to ask
    	yourself which was the lesser of two evils...8-)

    	Wear your red rose with pride!
    
    	Andy.

    re prev.
    
    What do you mean, IF??? 
    
    Born and bred in the home of Rugby league... 
    no, Warrington actually!! 8-)
    
    Anyway, I hope the mancs are still top tomorrow avo, as long as they
    lose as well!!  8-)
    You can keep the top spot warm for us till we get going... 8-)
    
    Stew.
     

    
     In note .227,
                  I predicted that the Mancs would lose 3-1 with Futre
    scoring twice and I wasn't far wrong and in fact, the result was better
    than I had hoped. The other night, Elton Pewee had said that Utd. were
    only losing 1-0 with a few minutes to go. A couple of minutes later, he
    came back and said "we have a very surprising result from Madrid". I
    thought my worst fears were going to be realised, e.g., that maybe Utd.
    had come back to win 2-1 but to my overwhelming relief, happiness and
    satisfaction, they had been stuffed 3-0 and my greatest hope for the
    replay is that Utd. have a resounding 4-1 win.
    
          Cunno.

    
    	Bad result for us on Saturday, after being 2-1 up with about 20
    	minutes to go. Jemson scored two after coming on as sub, and that 
    	now makes 6 goals conceeded in the last two games. A trend we must
    	put a halt to *very* quickly. 
    
    	We're off the top now, with a game in hand. Our undefeated run has
    	lasted to the last weekend in October. The important thing now is
    	to bounce back with a good win on Wednesday against Pompey in the
    	League Cup and a good home win on Saturday against Sheffield Utd.
    
    	No doubt this note will be full of abuse today after Saturday's
    	result. I'd say that shows how worried all these pundits are about
    	our marvellous start to the season and how glad they are to see us
    	slip up and let their own sides catch up a bit 8-) Let's hope it's
    	temporary, eh? ;-)
    
    	I'll go for:
    
    	Wednesday: Man Utd 3 - 0 Portsmouth
    
    	Saturday:  Man Utd 2 - 0 Sheffield United 
    
    	Andy.

    I saw the highlights on 'Goals on Sunday' (YTV). The Mancs 2 goals were
    a result of poor defending, the first one saw Warhurst pass back to
    Woods - well, all he found was McClair, who gleefully made it 1-1. He
    must have thought Christmas had come 2 months early this year. The 2nd
    goal was a defensive mix up, the ball going all over the place before
    McClair got a 2nd. Jenson scored 2 good goals for Wednesday, andf they
    deserved their victory. There was an almighty roar at Elland Road as
    the 15,000 people tuned in to Radio 5 heard the result ....
    
    The top of Div 1 stioll makes good reading, 2 Yorkshire and 2 Manc
    teams, with only the Arse messing it up, Scousers in 8th place...
    
    The Mancs have had a tough last 3 fixtures, but they have only produced
    2 points, but they were aginst teams directly below them, games they
    should have won to give their championship drive some impetus. Their
    next game in the league is Sheff Utd (unlucky losers at Maine Rd
    Saturday), not easy. Of course I hope our fellow Yorkshiremen will do
    their bit for the White Rose and win.
    
    jb.

    .265
    
    Maaaaaartin,
    
    Go out and grab a sheep.
    
    
    cheers,
    
    Paul
    

    re .261
    
    Looks like we're gonna add another league title to our never-ending
    list of domestic honours, eh??
    
    What with my prediction being so close about the mancs losing, Leeds
    going top courtesy of an excellent own goal, and the Arse defence still
    looking decidedly shakey... 
    
    9 points off the lead, with 2 games in hand... it's all coming good!!
    
    Stew.
    

    Stew
    
    I hate United, 'Pool are no better but at least the Arse are a London
    club....and to get those 6 points from your 2 games in hand....Sorry to
    have to tell you but that means you have to WIN (look in any dictionary
    if you don't recognise the meaning of the word) the games....no points
    for loosing...........!!!
    
    Ha..ha..ha
    
    

    To Messrs  Bree, Cunno, Blong etc..
    
    For a clearer discussion on this years league championship race
    you are cordially invited to contribute to the topic between
    topics 32 and 34.  (That's #33)
    
    I pointed this out in a call to Paul last Saturday circa 5.30 pm
    but reading the ongoing United/Liverpool diatribe fudges the facts.
    LEEDS are on top.
    
    Shane

The last time I checked I THINK that Leeds were top. Together with the fact that
Leeds have played all the top teams already this season. They have a much easier 
run into Christmas. 

So much so the league could be all over bar the shouting by Christmas!!!!


                               James.

    
    	Good grief you Leeds fans do get excited about going top of the 
    	League...doesn't seem long ago that everyone was beating up on
    	some of the United noters after it was proclaimed we'd been top 
    	for x weeks....
    
    	Oh well, I suppose you haven't had much to shout about....8-)
    
    	Andy.

    Re .273
    
    Its a bit early to write the Pool off completely, surely.  As for depth
    of squad, its all a matter of opinion....Sure MUFC have a big squad, as
    do Arsenal and Liverpool, but its only recently that I would say MUFC
    have become a team, rather than a lot of (good) individuals, whereas
    Arsenal and Pool have always had a game plan/pattern of play regardless
    of who filled in the individual slots.  Dont think Im defending
    Liverpool (Im not) but they have only lost 2 games in the league this
    season...boring as they are, I would put my cash on the Arse for the
    title.  Sourpuss on BBC last night didnt appear to be unduly worried
    about their position, and seemed confident that come Easter, they would
    be there or there abouts.
    
    Yours Neutrally
    Paul

re -.1

I thought we played them a few weeks ago???
Perhaps you meant Turkey. Am understandable Mistake :-)

	Mick

	Bryan Robson hit the crossbar in a recent match and killed
        15 Moan Utd fans who were crawling out of the woodwork.

        Stuart

    
    	Don't worry about them, Brian...they're only jealous. No team
    	justifies such vitriol and concern from non-supporters as ours,
    	so that tells you how much they worry about us, bless 'em 8-)
    
    	Andy.

    And just think, you are playing us tommorrow !! Thats 3 points
    in the bag before you take the field.

According to a phone message, from a non-football fan, there was an 
announcement on the 1:00 news that Bryan Robson has retired. 
Can anyone confirm ?

Martin M

    
    Ha ha ha!
    
    The mancs are back on top again with a game in hand and a point to
    spare. Leeds lost it with a draw against wimbledon. I think this proves
    that they are not of championship material, wheras the mancs are.
    
    2-0 to them, with a goal from kanchelskis being the highlight of a
    great day for the mancs.
    
    
    I must congratulate Leeds on their long stay at the top :-)
    
    
    Greg.

    I expect the league leadership to change hands almost on a weekly basis
    - when Man U are at home, Leeds are away, and vice versa. 'Win at
    home and draw away = championship'.
    
    It's too early to talk about championships at the moment, but things
    are looking good at the top of Div 1, 2 mancs and 2 tykes - better
    than previous seasons I hope you'll agree !
    
    

    
    
    According to the 2:30 news Robson has announced his retirement from
    international football.
    
    I wonder how much Alex Fergerson(sp) has to do with this ?.
                              
                               Neil... 

                      <<< Note 32.293 by DUCK::COSSEYN >>>

    
    
>    According to the 2:30 news Robson has announced his retirement from
>    international football.
    
 

     I don't want to be a boring b*st*rd, but we work for a compnay at the 
leading edge of technology.

     Surely this news is at least 4 years old.


   Sir Geoffrey Thomas

Stuart,

I hope your'e NOT suggesting that CARTHORSE I VE GOT NO SKILL Geoff Thomas is 
Englands answer in replacing Robbo..!!!

I think you'll be disappointed...

If the news is correct i.e NOT some SCOUSE BULLS**T story, Sorry forgot, thats on 
 the pitch.....then Iam glad..  He has given so much for his country..


Tony

    
    	I'm glad too. Bryan can add *nothing* to England's lost cause 
    	(anyone see the Turkey game?!?!?) but is vital to our success 
    	this season. It saves Graham Taylor having to make another 
    	difficult decision! 8-)
    
    	Bryan Robson has been magnificent for England. We've already
    	spoken about it in here ;-) but I'd like to remember him leading
    	by example and scoring goals, and not someone clearly in the
    	twilight of his career still trying to hold a cr*p England team
    	together that's falling apart at the seems.
    
    	Andy.

                        <<< Note 32.295 by OPG::TONY >>>
                             -< Englands Loss... >-

>Stuart,

>I hope your'e NOT suggesting that CARTHORSE I VE GOT NO SKILL Geoff Thomas is 
>Englands answer in replacing Robbo..!!!

>I think you'll be disappointed...

>If the news is correct i.e NOT some SCOUSE BULLS**T story, Sorry forgot, thats on 
> the pitch.....then Iam glad..  He has given so much for his country..


>Tony



Tony,

Thank you for your prompt reply. 

I did not suggest that (Sir) Geoffrey Thomas should be an ersatz "ROBBO".
The soubriquet that I finished my note with was a ( feeble?) attempt at 
humour,


I found your erudite note revealing, but I believe that I would be doing
a great dis-service to myself, football, and Geoff Thomas if I was to
make a comparision.

Bryan Robson was a extremely good footballer, and quite possibly he is
still a great motivator ( one glance at the tabloids and I'm almost convinced),
but he should never ( and shouldn't have for the last couple of years) be
allowed anywhere near the England changing room, and kept at even greater
distance from a England shirt. 

The bloke has lost it! He gets 10/10 for trying but more often than not,
irrespective of what colour shirt he is wearing, his exuberance hinders
others.


I wont bore you all ( cos I know you think "if he ain't red he ain't worth
a ****" ), rambling on about Geoff Thomas's talents.... but I bet if Palace
we're prepared to release G.T, Alec would hammering at the hallowed portals
of the Mecca.


Stuey

Stuart,


>I wont bore you all ( cos I know you think "if he ain't red he ain't worth
>a ****" ), rambling on about Geoff Thomas's talents.... but I bet if Palace
>we're prepared to release G.T, Alec would hammering at the hallowed portals
>of the Mecca.


Probably....and You'll have to pay us as well.....Argh..Argh...

Tony

    re -2
    
    Cant agree with your sentiments about Robbo playing for England.  The
    man has been (perhaps the last season or so, excepted) EXCEPTIONAL for
    England, and no-one has contributed more to Englands efforts than he. 
    He has been an excellent server & motivator for England who gave 110%
    for his country.  He may not be the prettiest most elegant type of
    player but a team needs a player like that who will fight and chase and
    harry everthing.Who else would you have put in his place ??.
    
    Paul..who's not a Red, or even English, or biased....

    
    Robbo has now retired from the international scene having won nothing
    and in all likelihood, he will quit the Mancs as a player in the near 
    future after over 10 years trying to win a league medal and having
    failed dismally. On a lighter note, Ronnie Whelan should be back in
    action in two weeks and wouldn't it be great if he could win his
    seventh (7th) league medal come next May.
    
         Cunno.

    Only one player has had more injuries than Robbo, and that's our
    Ronnie, God bless his little Southern Irish heart. Sourpuss is showing
    his true class bringing him back, or is that desperation. Must be
    getting nervous now that King Kenny is nearby  . . .and kicking again.
    Oh well, Rangers are missing those imports! 
    
    Difference between Robbo & Ronnie, Robbo plays for an International
    team of the best players from that country, and Ronnie plays for an
    International team of players who couldn't make that team and used
    their grandmothers to at least wear an international shirt. Being the
    true do-facto midfielder, Robbo has proven himself on the best team in
    the league, and one of the best international squads (albeit
    whiners/under acheivers, but you should have had old big 'ed for
    manager then). 
    
    So it's roll on Robbo, bye bye Ronnie, here for Sourpuss today, gone to
    tranmere rovers tomorrow.
    
    Paul

    re.301
    
    Paul 
    
    Come off it!!  I thought all this bull$%&* was forgotten about. The
    Irish team is represented by Irish men. It doesn't matter that there is
    a gap of some generations. If you had beaten us in for example
    Stuttgart instead of losing all your qualifying games you wouldn't be
    bitching now.
    
    I'm a committed fan of Robson's because he won me a handy few quid any
    time I backed United in Cups but don't let begrudgery spoil your
    admiration for the best purchase United ever made.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    ps
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Where was John Barnes born?
    
    
    
    Paul

re. -2
    
>    Difference between Robbo & Ronnie, Robbo plays for an International
>    team of the best players from that country, and Ronnie plays for an
>    International team of players who couldn't make that team and used
>    their grandmothers to at least wear an international shirt. Being the
>    true do-facto midfielder, Robbo has proven himself on the best team in
>    the league, and one of the best international squads (albeit
>    whiners/under acheivers, but you should have had old big 'ed for
>    manager then). 

Well I never! Thats rich coming from a team that hasn't managed to beat this
team of misfits in its last 4 attempts, when it counted. I do admit that SOME of 
our players have dubious backgrounds but that doesn't in any way take away
from the achievements that our manager and players have achieved in the last 4
years, a lot more that England can claim in many senses in that time.

                               James.

    Mr. Moderator,
    
    How is it that notes from the crowd in 47 never get set hidden?
    As I recall,a certain gent called Billy has been riding roughshod for a
    while now without censure.
    
    Paul
    

    
    >How is it that notes from the crowd in 47 never get set hidden?
    >As I recall,a certain gent called Billy has been riding roughshod for
    >while now without censure.
    
    .304 was set hidden because it contained a personal insult to another
    noter.  The content incidently had nothing whatsoever to do with
    Manchester United.
    
    As for your allegation that I've shown bias towards Rangers fans in
    this conference this is ridiculous.  If you care to remember I've set
    hidden notes from at least 2 different Rangers supporters in the last
    few days including your friend Billy..  If there are any others that 
    should be set hidden I'm sure you'll let me know.
    
    Gary.   

    Apologies lads - we are sensitive souls. I thought some may have
    realized I'm a good irishman! 
    
    Now didn't we get wound up then! I was really just baiting cunno
    anyway.
    
    Sorry about that Gary, I'll stick to MUFC primitive stuff.
    
    paul

    >    Reality facing you right in the kisser..lets talk about traditional
    
    
    	Lovely turn of phrase there Juan..... :-)

Juanjo,

Hi...What can I say.. You won well done.. We were all very impressed with 
Atletico Madrid they played some very good football. And as always we wish you
GOOD LUCK in the next round.

I cant help wondering if we hadnt collapsed in the last 5 minutes in Madrid
 would Atltico have looked as composed at Old Trafford..I wonder...No disrespect
but we can  also look composed when we are 3-0 up.

I would like to add that on the night a number of United players did not perform
to standard that we normally like to see at Old Trafford..I for one thought
Blackmore and McClair and possibly Webb had their worst United preformance ever.
No excuses, they tried but the mountain was too high..


Devil Tone 

    re.315
    
    Mixed metaphors aside there's a grain of truth in Juan's comments. I
    personally thought the commentators at Liverpool's game in particular
    were awful.
    
    Paul

    It is so much better with the sound down enough to spare you the
    drivel, but at least to hear the crowd. I recommend it.

    Lee Sharpe is to see a specialist today about his deeep-seated (!)
    groin injury; Sharpe could be out for rest of the season.

    United don't seem to have a very impressive record against City...
    
    ...though I could be wrong!!
    
    Didn't they lose 5:1 to City a season or so back???
    
    Anyway, I reckon it'll be a similar result, with the light blues
    singing all the way home.
    
    Stew.
    
    

>    United to Stuff City

>    It's the Big Derby Match at Maine Road on saturday. United  V  City.


Brian,

I think you're confused, the BIG derby match is on Sunday,  its a Bramall
Lane, and it United to Stuff Wednesday OK.

Dave the Blade
 

    Is the Manchester derby match being shown on any of the T.V. stations?

>Is the Manchester derby match being shown on any of the T.V. stations?

No...

Maine Road would be empty if they did..??

    
    I presume the highlights will be shown on Granada on Saturday night -
    Granada also shows ALL the goals from the North-West at 5:15 on a
    Saturday - No wonder they kept their franchise and TVS didn't.....
    
    Paul

    
    	That is good news! A couple of "indifferent" performances and a
    	growing injury list were beginning to worry me...the situation with
    	yound Lee Sharpe still does worry me 8-(
    
    	We need a victory tomorrow. The pressure is now on. We're entering
    	the second "third" (?) of the season and need to put some good
    	results together. I'll go for a 2-1 win...Bruce with a pen. and
    	Sparky to score. After last year's debacle it's about time we beat 
    	the Citizens in their own yard. It's a real 6-pointer, a win will
    	push us clearer from the immediate chasers and put the pressure on
    	Leeds Leeds Leeds to win their game to maintain the gap.
    
    	City 1 - 2 United    Hughes, Bruce (pen), someone else...
    
    	Come on you reds!!
    
    	Andy.
 

    re. prev.
    
    I'm sure he'll manage a clean sheet on his birthday on Monday, but I'll
    be surprised if he let's in less than 2 tomorrow afternoon!! 8-)
    
    Stew.
    

     Only one team in it.
    
    city 1 (who cares who scores for them)
    
    UNITED 3 (Kenchelski, Hughes, Robson) 
    
    
    Welcome back Parker, Pallister and Ince
    
    
    mac  8-)

    re .331
    
    The City goal was probably scored by Parker!! ;-)
    
    Stew.
    

Hi chaps,

Does anyone know what position the scousers are ??

Dont seem see them around the top 5...!!

Tony

    9th.
    sad isnt it.
    :-(
    but we'll be back. after all man utd went through a bad patch and have
    recovered to put in a fine performance so far this season...
    (see this unbiased note, andy sant!)
    once our injury crisis is resolved we may be able to give a fuller
    account ourselves but i personally believe that key players are much
    weaker this season. it could be the lack of support from the injured
    players or just that they arent playing as well. only time will tell,
    but i shall continue to support them, even if we end up in the fourth
    division. oh well,
    thanks, Ian.
    
    p.s i cant stand mark walters.
    

    Blueoo Moooon

    Sorry I was still drunk.......
    
    

    
    	To be honest, this game tomorrow nite must surely be more of a
    	hinderance. S*d-all at stake and plenty of wounded....doesn't
    	make sense when so many are complaining at the number of games
    	they have to play...
    
    	I think we escaped on Saturday. The lads from Maine Road should 
    	probably be more disappointed at only getting a point. The sticky
    	run continues, with a *very* tough-looking game on Saturday to a
    	rapidly-improving West Ham side. After so many good results they're
    	due a defeat 8-) let's oblige them....
    
    	I'll go for a tense 1-0 win.....'bout time Sparky got back on the 
    	scoresheet.
    
    	Andy.
    

    All in bad taste :-
    
    The 'Aeroplane' song has been joined by 'Always look on the Runway for
    Ice' - grunted to the tune of 'Always look on the bright side of life'
    
    jb.

    
    	I'm not too confident about tonite..I can see us getting beaten
    	2 or 3 nil. The mighty Atletico taught us a few home truths about
    	the yawning gulf between true class European acts and some of our
    	own league's efforts. That's not to say we can't beat these guys
    	on the day, but we've a ways to go before we can get back in the
    	hunt for regular European honours again. That applies to *all*
    	English clubs in Europe, and before Liverpool and Spurs fans dive
    	in, you've won nothing yet...now it starts to get tough!!
      
    	Let's get over the game injury-free and concentrate on the serious
    	stuff - three points on Saturday. Our title challenge is bumping
    	along in second gear. We need to put that right asap before we let
    	it slip too far....
    
    	Andy.

    
    
    
    Manchester United......1  Red Star Belgrade.......0
    
    McClair
    
    
    att. 22,000+
    
    

    
    	Just goes to show how wrong you can be...fortunately!
    
    	Radio 5 at half-time were extolling the virtues of the technically
    	superior 'Slavs, particularly Panchev and Savechevic (sp?), despite
    	only five of last year's Euro-Cup winning team still playing for
    	Red Star.
    
    	"United's defence look so slow.." etc..
    
    	And what happens? McClair steals the show and United hold on
    	comfortably. I guess this was one of those days when the more
    	skilled side couldn't beat the more committed..
    
	Webb sounded a bit hit 'n' miss, but Honeymonster Pallister is
    	getting better and better. 
    
    	Interesting to note that the "four foreigner" rule didn't apply,
    	allowing us to pick our strongest side, and we managed to beat the 
    	European Cup holders...supposedly the best in Europe.
    
    	Is this the first Super Cup victory for an English side? This is
    	a genuine question - have Liverpool ever won it before? I think
    	they have but can't remember when...
    
    	Andy.

    Come out now Martin Cunniffe!!!
    
    Paul

    Facinating!  I watched this game "live" on RTL, it was dross. I was 
    so rivited I thought the result was 0-0. When did McClair score ?
    
    It was a classic nothing a stake affair.
    
    Having always been a fan of Uniteds, I was very dissappointed at
    their basic lack of skill ie first touch.  Was this there normal
    standard or is it unfair to judge when nothing was at stake.

    Re -1   You beat me too it, I watched it also on RTL...it was dire ... 

    re. super cup.
    
    yes Liverpool have won it, cant remember when.
    i also remember them playing Flamengo of Brazil and getting hammered
    2-0 in the super cup final about 8 years ago in Japan.
    has the format of the cup changed? it used to be s.america vs europe i
    think. Penarol used to play in it a lot. any ideas?
    Ian.
    

    thank you paul watterson for reminding me that i am getting the
    world club championship an the super cup mixed up...
    Ian.
    

    re. last
    
    if you were kings of Europe, surely you would still be in the cup
    winners cup? ;-)
    congratulations anyway, its great to see a British team back on top of
    Europe again...lets hope that spurs and Liverpool can keep us there
    next year.
    
    Ian.
    

    
    	re last..ditto. Shucks, Ian...we must stop agreeing like 
    	this 8-)
    	
    	Any chance of a repeat of yesterday's little spat in your 
    	office? ;-) ..very entertaining...
    
    	Andy.
    
  

    re. 'little spat'
    
    sorry Andy,
     Paul is a LOT bigger than i am.
     he also gives me a lift home occasionally.
     i HAVE to be nice to him.
     :-)
    Ian.
    

    Re : .346
    
    	I believe LFC won it (can't remember when) by beating SV Hamburger
        5-0 at Anfield. There was a little man called Keagan in the SV H
        side aswell that night, if I remember correctly.
    
        I'll take a stab at 1984.
    
        Paul.

    Had a chat with a MU fan last night, who reckons that Utd need a better
    partner for Sparky .  He reckons that TGA would be a good choice. 
    Apart from the obvios effects this would have on our happy noter Cunno,
    any thoughts on this one ???.
    Cheers
    Paul

    Re. 346 & 355
    
    I think you'll find that the Liverpool v SV Hamburger Super Cup was
    played around 1978. Keegan left the Pool in 77 and I think the
    Monchegladbach Euro Final was one of his last games.
    
    Barry.

    I meant .356
    
    

    re Super Cup
    
    
    	Didn't Aston Villa win it some time ago, or am I thinking of
    something else?
    
    Stevo
    

    <<< Note 32.360 by RUTILE::CAMPBELL "Real ponies don't go oink!" >>>
    
       >  re Super Cup
    
    
       >  Didn't Aston Villa win it some time ago, or am I thinking of
       >  something else?
         
    
    no, wasnt that the Birmingham and district womens knitting circle
    5-a-side competition?
    :-))
    Ian.
      

>    I think you'll find that the Liverpool v SV Hamburger Super Cup was
>    played around 1978. Keegan left the Pool in 77 and I think the
>    Monchegladbach Euro Final was one of his last games.
    
 >   Barry.

It was indeed, Keegan's last official game was the European cup final in '77
and he returned to Anfield for the super cup final with HSV.  The result was
around 4 or 5 nil.

I remember the Kop chanting "You should have stayed at Anfield"

Liverpool totlally dominated the game and another memory I have is Steve Highway
rounding two or three HSV defender as though they weren't there.

Stroke of luck having to play a Yugoslav side - so it's all settled in the 
home leg! Still, congrats anyway.

grahame

Can't let .361 go by. Villa actually won the league in '81, the European Cup
in '82 and the World Club thingy in '82 or 3. The Knitting Circle was won by
those poor ******** at St Andrews. When did the "Big Club" last win any of
these? (Oh God I'm beginning to sound like you-know-who!).

Bob

    
    	...and the comment came from an interloper from the Liverpool note,
    	so leave out the shoulder 'n' chips 8-) 8-)
    
    	I also thought the great but brief Villa team of the early 80's won
    	the World Club thingy...
    
    	Andy.

    
    So ok, Man. Utd. won the European super cup by beating Red Star
    Belgrade 1-0 at home. Only for the troubles and unfortunate turmoil
    in Yugoslavia, there was no away leg for the Mancs. At least when
    Liverpool won the supercup, they did it over two legs.
    European Supercup
       22 Nov 1978 SV Hamburg  1 Liverpool 1
        6 Dec   ""  Liverpool  6 Hamburg   0
    Liverpool scorers (Dalglish 1, McDermott 3, Fairclough 2,Thompson 1)
    
    European Supercup
       4 Dec 1979 Anderlecht 3 Liverpool 1
      19 Dec 1979 Liverpool  2 Anderlecht 1
    Liverpool scorers (Case, Fairclough & Hughes)
    World club championship
    13 Dec 1982 Tokyo
       Flamengo 3 Liverpool 0
    World club championship
    9 Dec 1984
       Independiente 1 Liverpol 0
    European supercup 
    16 Jan 1985
       Juventus 2 Liverpool 0 
     
           Cunno.
    

    
    	...the adding up's none too clever either..
    
    	1 + 3 + 2 + 1 = ?
    
    	Oh, well...least he said *something* 8-)
    
    	Andy.

    
    Andy,
        My adding was absolutely correct. When I gave the scorers, I was
    also including the one goal scored away on top of the six at home.
    
        Cunno.

Martin,

As you sound like the expert, did Villa win this ******* Super Club trophy
or not? I was speaking from (maybe impaired) memory.

Bob

PS. Apologies for being in the wrong note AND slagging off the wrong Big Club
(apparently). Many ;-) etc
 

    Bob
    
    Aston Villa did win the Euro Super Cup in '82 - beating Barcelona 3-1
    0n aggregate (0-1,3-0).
                                           
    Forest also beat Barca (1-0,1-1) in '79, and Aberdeen won it in '83,
    defeating Hamburg (0-0,2-0).
    
    No British club has yet won the World Club Championship though.
    
    Rob

    
    Glasgow Celtic should've & would've won it,if they hadn't been kicked of the
    park by Racing Club of Buenos Aires in 67/68  8*))
    

    Touching. Very touching. Now if he'd quit dreaming of his West Ham days
    and start concentrating on United winning the league . . .
    
    United vs West Ham on TSN Canada tomorrow. For you satellite buffs, you
    should be able to pick it up.
    
    -pb

I saw the goals on the match yesterday afternoon. It's the first time I've seen
Giggs play (even though they only showed 2 moves), and if he carries on like
this, he will definitely be the next George Best.

The first was the sweetest volley you'll see in a long time, and the second was 
brought about by a piercing run diagonally through the box, pulling 2/3
defenders with him, then a deft back heel for McClair(?) to shoot and Robson to
make sure.

	Al

    re. last
    
    > and if he carries on like this, he will definitely be the next George
      Best.
    
    What? an abusive drunk?
    Ian.
    

    Sharpe is seeing a specialist today to decide whether he can step up
    his training. He hopes to play in a reserve game within three three
    weeks.
    
    Tony

    re .375
    
    Was George Best drunk???
    
    
    Stew. 8-)
    
    

    
    	Well back in the reality note (after these OTT Leeds boys
    	predicting success after yesterday's demolition of Villa ;-) )...
    
    	We should have been several goals better off at half time than the
    	two we did score...stunning volley by Giggs, nice second by the
    	washed-up injury-ridden no-good Robson.....
    
    	Nearly paid the price for not taking the chances with West Amm 
    	getting a late goal then Maccathingy hit the sticks near the end.
    	
    	We deserved the three points and it's good to be back on the
    	winning trail.
    
    	There's a nice little gap opening up between ourselves and Leeds
    	Leeds Leeds from the chasing bunch, two of whom got a right humping
    	at the w/e (Palace and Villa).
    
    	We've a game in hand on the Leeds boys but there's a marathon still
    	to go.
    
    	Things are looking good at the moment, though...
    
    	Andy.

>>>    tape last night, what a cracker, this boy is going to be star for years
>>>    to come. He's a cert for the young player of the year already.
>>>    How about another United double in the player of the year stakes,
>>>    Footballer of the Year,  Bryan Robson
>>>    Young player of the Year Ryan Giggs
>>>
    
    Dream on !!!
    
    He'll end up like the other Man Utd 'starlets' - Beardsmore, Martin,
    Robins, the Italian sounding fella - nowhere...
    
    Robson'll be injured again before the end of the season and probably
    end up in Japan after announcing his retirement....
    
    Man Utd will finish fourth and Ferguson will be sacked....
    
    Gypsy Rose Lee

    
>>>    play for the youth team. I spoke to Tommy Docherty about him, and he
>>>    said he is something special. And i'm afraid i regard The Doc's opinion
>>>    slightly higher then yours.
   
    Docherty's just a number of ex-Man Utd 'personalities' who've spent the
    last x years earning money from their association with Old Trafford -
    similar to Crerand (sp), Law, Best, Charlton (Bobby) etc etc and they
    all spout out the same old dribble about how xxxxxx insert (Beardsmore,
    Martin, Robins, Mao-thingy, Whiteside etc etc) are the greatest player
    they've ever seen for his age, they are the new xxxxx insert Best,
    Charlton, Edwards.
    
    Giggs isn't a bad player - but give him a couple of seasons to really
    prove himself.
    
    Paul 
    

    Not a Utd. fan (only when they play City Steve :-) ) but this bloke
    Giggs is definitely special. Apart from his ball-control his speed is 
    amazing. Any time I've seen him (on TV) you get the feeling he's going
    to do something special with the ball and 9 times out of 10 he does. He
    also seems to be cool-headed (no Gascoigne antics....) and confident
    for his age without being cocky. He's the kind of player to attract the
    crowds and also the Italians........
    	
    	- Robin.... 

    
    Brian,
         you musty be in cocooland if you think that Utd. can pull off the
    double of Robbo and Giggs as players of the year. One volley from six
    yards and people are going crazy about him..........what rubbish!
        From a purely unbiased point of view, it seems to me that the cert
    for the young player of the year will be Steve McManaman with the
    senior award going to either Bruce Grobbelaar or Ray Houghton for their
    spectacular displays for Liverpool this season.
    
         Cunno.
    

    
    >senior award going to either Bruce Grobbelaar or Ray Houghton for
    their
    >spectacular displays for Liverpool this season.
    
    What!!!!!  Surely after scoring 25 goals before the end of November
    there can be only one candidate for player of the year Martin.  Have
    you lost faith already?
    
    Gary.

    To tell you the truth it was the way the ball swirved neatly before
    hitting the back of the net which gave me most pleasure. You just
    don't see many goals scored with that sort of style in this country.
    Go East across the pond and you'll probably find defenders with 
    better first time volleying than a lot of our strikers. 
    
    Barry

    re -1
    
    (25 goals before the end of November)
    
    So what, how many were penalties(yes I know Steve Bruce scored numerous of
    them last season), and the main point is that TGA is playing in the
    Second Division, I reckon that in the 1st Division he would be as good
    as Dean Saunders(whoever he is)
    
    re -2
    Steve McNamanan(SP?) is just making the most of a dire situation at the
    Kop, with all these injuries etc... As someone elase mentioned, wait a
    few seasonsand we'll see who is still around
	However they are both young and if pushed in the right direction
    should become the Rush and Hughes of the world as we know it.
    
    mac

    
    	Nice to see that United getting back on the winning trail has
    	sparked so much interest again 8-)
    
    	Giggs is a wonderful talent - there are a few around but not many,
    	McManaman *do* like - and promises much for the future. 
    
    	As for the garbage written previously about ex-United players
    	riding some sort of gravy-train....really, Paul, I'd expect a
    	little more tolerance from you...8-) They *all* do it. Why so
    	surprised? 
    
    	It's such a pity that genuine unbiased opinions are not more 
    	frequently given. Some people can't see beyond their own colon, 
    	never mind their own team, and they think they're unbiased ;-)
    	Shame. Were you abused by a United supporter as a child, Martin?
    	I think we should know the truth.
    
    	I notice you're generally keeping out of the Liverpool note these
    	days, and even suggested a switch of allegiance to Leeds United.
    	Given up already? Some supporter you turned out to be....8-)
    
    	Keep sending the loony mails. 
    
    	Meanwhile, back to football. United are now second, one point and
    	a game in hand behind Leeds (Leeds Leeds), who were superb on
    	Sunday. A five-point gap has opened up before City bring up third.
    	Liverpool are languishing in about 9th place, surrounded by other
    	mediocre sides trying to catch up with the pace-setters from OT
    	and Elland Road.
    
    	Andy.

    Loosen up guys!!!!!!!!!!
    
    There's only one "Young Footballer Of The Year"  and he's Irish!!!!!
    
    
    Roy Keane!!!!!!!!!!
    
    These pretenders Giggs ,McManaman,Tanner are one season wonders!!!!!
    
    
    M.J.
    "UREDS"

    
    	MJ..
    
    	Roy Keane is indeed a wonderful player, and still so young. Let's	
    	hope Sourpuss keeps his hands off and lets him get on with it eh?
    
    	Pretenders MacMananananaman and Giggs are not...they are both also
    	excellent young players (Giggs is still only *17*..)
    
    	Tanner? Not even worth a mention. He's 26 (hardly young by these
    	standards..) and an average player in a poor defence. In the days
    	of Hansen, Lawrenson, Whelan he wouldn't have got a look-in.
    
    	The award will be given based on the whole season, with perhaps the
    	final factor being some sort of "visibility", like winning
    	something. We shall see.
    
    	Personally I'm delighted to see Giggs excelling for United and look
    	forward to seing him do the business to a few more teams this
    	season.
    
    	Andy.
               

    Ref: .392
    Cunno,
    
    With such great players contributing such great performances day
    after day, how do you explain the pool's current position in the
    league standings? Geee, I watched the pool 4 times this year, all
    4 matches against lesser competition, (so I was told) and they did 
    not impress. 
    
    Face it: If any keeper is to be seriously considered for 'player
             of the year', which I doubt, one need not go further than OT. 
             (At least he has made a difference)
    
    Facts can not be changed and, as much as I hate to admit it, the pool
    will always be remembered as one of the world's best ever football
    sides. But history does not stand still and neither should you.
    I suggest you either change sides or adopt a LUTON-SUPPORTER-TYPE 
    attitude, meaning: They've mastered the art of having fun supporting
    a last place team, something you need to get used to do.
    
    JC

    re. last
    re. 'supporting a last place team'
    
    JC,
    is that what YOUVE been doing for the last 25 years, JC?
    as for Schmiecal (sp?) yes, he has made a difference, a BIG difference,
    he has turned a very ordinary team into title contenders.
    Also, JC, if we are now a 'last place team' how comes YOU couldnt beat
    us? even when we are injury-struck?
    i sincerely hope that Leeds flatten you,
    Love Ian.
    

    
    	Come on now Ian...United haven't been a "last place team" for the
    	past 25 years. Admittedly the big one has eluded us but we've won
    	the FA Cup more times than any other side including Liverpool in 
    	that period (ie 4), paid a thankfully breif visit to the second
    	division ('74), finished runners-up and often in the top six of the 
    	league whilst admittedly better sides have won it, and generally
    	been one of the top sides in the country. You can't say its been
    	boring even if we haven't won the league. Few have in that period -
    	I make it just seven (Liverpool, Leeds, Arsenal, Derby, Forest, Villa,
    	Everton)          
    
    	We United supporters all *know* how long its been, but we don't
    	dessert in droves every time it doesn't work out. That's why United
    	get 40000 for home games even when they're not top of the league,
    	and that's what grates with so many unbelievers 8-)
    
    	Andy.

    
    re.last
    
    Quite correct Andy, and just the point i was hoping someone would make.
    It WAS unfair of me to call Man Utd a last place team for the last 25
    years...just like it is UNFAIR of JC to call Liverpool a 'last place
    team' THIS season, when we are far from last place...
    
    Thank you for helping me to make my point,
    Ian.
     

   >	I make it just seven (Liverpool, Leeds, Arsenal, Derby, Forest, Villa,
   > 	Everton)          
    
    
    
    	AND MANCHESTER CITY!!!!! (Just!)
    
    
    		Steve

    Brian,
     apologies, Giggs is a very exciting player, and i was VERY suprised to
     learn that he was 17! he doesnt seem at all unnerved by any occasion
     does he? could you tell me what nationality he is please?
     Kanchelsis is also an excellent player, as for Parker, i havent really
     noticed much of him this season, which is sometimes a good thing for a
     defender - proves they are doing their job tidily...
    Ian.
    

    
    Puke !!
    
    Are you changing clubs YET AGAIN Mr Hawley ?
    
    Paul

    Paul,
     no, its called fairness and giving credit where credit is due...
     Try it sometime,
    Ian.

    
    
    
    	I think Giggs is Welsh unfortunately.

                                           
    Ian,
    
    I'm always fair and unbiased....
    
    I could understand your point about fairness and giving credit where
    credit is due IF you did, but you either hate everything about Man Utd
    OR you love everything about them..... - just read your previous replys
    in this note.
    
    Is there any truth in the rumours that your changing because your mummy
    got you some cheap Man Utd pyjamas ? ;-) 
    
    Paul 

    Paul,
    
     1. I hate Man Utd.
     2. I am however able to give credit to certain players of ability. 
        (unlike you)
     3. I dont wear pyjamas (not even Liverpool ones)
     4. do they make Everton pyjamas and other such acoutrements? (sp!?)
        because they usually only make such things for the big clubs...
    Ian.
    
    

    
    	Ding Ding !! It's *on* again 8-)
    
    	re .405....Steve, City winning the title in '68 (?) was in fact a
    	figment of our imagination and didn't actually happen at all ...;-)
    
    	Andy.

    Ref: .402
    
    Ian, I never said Liverpool was a last place team. The reference to Luton 
    was my way of trying to be polite in suggesting you pool fans lower your 
    expectations and learn how to get some pleasure out of supporting the pool
    during these NOT SO GOOD TIMES, as opposed to giving up hope for the title
    and jumping ship over to Leeds. 

    Put it this way: Luton fans are happy just to stay in the first division. 
    Lets be realistic: Isn't that about as much as any reasonable person can 
    expect of the pool this season? 

    JC

    JC,
     I am not jumping ship, i do not like leeds, i just dislike them less
     than Man Utd. As for the best we can expect, well, i am a well-known
     pessimist so ill say 'the best we can hope for is not to go down as
     the bottom club! :-)'
    Cheers, Ian.
    

    I don't think we'll be bottom this season...
    
    
    ...we should AT LEAST finish above Everton!! 8-)
    
    Stew.

    
    Read in the papers that Red Star Belgrade via a certain local Yugoslav
    magazine were calling Utd's Super Cup victory over the above a SCANDAL!
    
    Reason being is that Utd played 7 foreign players in their team, and
    this magazine thought UEFA were favouring Utd by allowing them to do
    this. Especially with the new ruling that they are only supposed to
    play 4 foreign players in the competition.
    
    However there were reports flying round that Red Star were not
    interested in this, but in others they were hotly disputing the fact
    with UEFA.
    
    The decision was made by a German UEFA official that there would be no
    limit on the number of foreigners allowed, just the same as last year.
    
    Kinda puts a dampner on winning when you hear things like that.
    
    Anyway Utd to beat Palace on Saturday 2-0.
    
    mac
    
    P.S. But good luck to 'pool tonight. I don't like to do this but they
    are the only english team left, so go for it !

    re          <<< Note 32.418 by MINDER::MACDONALDI "MUFC ECWC Champions" >>>
    
    >	I don't like to do this but they are the only english team left, 
    >	so go for it !
    
    	I don't like to say this either but I think you'll find Tottenham
    	are still in Europe and England. |-(

    
    	Yes, the fact that we seemed to be allowed to play our strongest
    	side regardless of the number of foreigners was a little strange,
    	but having allowed it there's no point wanting to go back on it
    	since United won the match 1-0.
    
    	Also like to wish good luck to Liverpool tonite. Spurs play later
    	on (March?) in the ECWC Q-Fs and both will need good fortune now
    	the competition is getting a little tougher...
    
    	As for Saturday, Palace fell apart at the City ground last w/e so
    	look for them to want to improve drastically on that performance.
    	We must win this game, and 1-0 will do for me. Hughes will score,
    	but I expect it to be a "physical confrontation". Let's hope both
    	sides stick to playing quality football and leave out the rough
    	stuff a la '90 Cup Final replay.
    
    	Andy.

    thanks for the good wishes (i think we'll need them),
    i agree about Red Star, if the rules of the game were set out before
    the game was played and they didnt complain beforehand, then they are
    obviously suffering from a case of sour grapes...
    ill bet they wouldnt have complained if theyd have won! :-)
    Ian.
    

    
    
    LEE SHARPE is to play in either a reserve or an A team game this
    Saturday. This comes after visiting a top London specialist earlier
    this week who has given Lee the go ahead. 
    This is a make or break game, if Lee passes then hopefully he will be
    able to soon get back into the swing of things. Just imagine Sharpe
    AND Giggs ??!! 8-))
    If Lee breaks down this either means a VERY long road to recovery, with
    the distinct possibilty that he may never play first team football
    again. If this happens it would a shame, not just for Utd, but for
    English football as a whole.
    He had just broken into the senior ranks of the England side, and
    looked the ideal replacement for Barnes.
    
    Well we'll just have to see.
    
    mac 

    
    	Lets hope young Lee (last seasons Young Player Of The Year...) gets
    	his injury troubles sorted out once and for all. Good luck to him.
        I'm looking forward to seeing Sharpe and Giggs spearheading an
    	exciting United forward line with Hughes, but I'll settle for
    	getting him mended first! Permanent injury at this point of his
    	short career would be a great shame.
    
    	Andy.

    	What exactly is the Sharpe injury & is it REALLY career
    threatening.
    
    	Bad news for England if it is since he could develop into a very
    good player at international level.
    
    Kevin

    	Do you think many of these injuries are caused by youngsters being
    pushed too far too soon,ie too many games/too intensive
    training,pressure to win???  I mean Sharpe is only about 19 or 20 isn't
    he??
    
    	It just seems young to be in a career threatening situation from an
    internal injury.
    
    Kevin

    re. .328 this may be behind the recent FA reminder to clubs that
             youth players should not play more than once in 24hrs.
             (this means they cannot play Saturday pm and Sunday 
             morning). Some local U15s were playing Friday evening,
             Saturday morning, and Sunday morning and afternoon.
             I've noticed an increase in knee 'stress' problems 
             in the last two years amongst young players.
    
    DaveT (sorry to rathole in the MUFC note!)

    
    	I read that World Soccer Magazine (some Euro-based footie mag..)
    	had voted Mark Hughes 4th in their Player Of The Year awards,
    	behind 1st Papin, 2nd Prosinecki, 3rd Panchev...
    
    	Seems like its not just United supporters that rate him one of the 
    	best strikers in Europe last season...
    
    	And before anyone starts quoting goal figures, this was the opinion
    	of unbiased football *experts* and Sparky doesn't take penalties ;-)
    
    	Lets hope Sparky can continue to upset you by helping Robbo lift the 
    	League trophy for Manchester United this season 8-)
    
     	Andy.

    >    Lets hope Sparky can continue to upset you by helping Robbo lift the 
    >	 League trophy for Manchester United this season 8-)
    
    The old gentleman isn't that feeble yet is he? Pity we won't be able to
    find out. He won't be called upon to lift any trophy, with or without
    help.

    
    Andy,
         If the book didn't rate Aldo in the top five, then it wasn't
    worth reading.
    
         Cunno

Its all relative Cunno, the list was probably drawn up from "high profile
strikers". A goal from Hughes won a European competition , for example.

Aldo wasn't exactly in the limelight last season was he ?

Besides, I know a guy who plays for a pub team and he scored 53 goals last year.
I've never heard his name spoken in the same breath as the likes of Hughes.

    Na, it was Giggs, or Biggs or summit ! He was brought over from Rio 8-)

             <<< RTODWT::DW$USER1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]FOOTBALL.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< FOOTBALL >-
================================================================================
Note 32.440                   Manchester United FC                    440 of 442
ESSB::BLONG "The Scousers Trophy Cabinet is Empty"   17 lines   2-DEC-1991 12:58
                        -< United we Stand at the Top >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    	<< Eh! am I missing something here?  Is Brian switching over to
    following the league leaders?   For a fuller discussion of the United
    at the top of the table see note 33.
    z
    Shane

    
    Shane,
          Brian is neither a Manc fan or a Leeds fan but a closet Liverpool
    fan. I have recently purchased the Liverpool centenery book and have
    come back from breaks several times to catch Brian reading the honours
    list and admiring the great players. I also have pictures of Brian with
    Ronnie Whelan and John Barnes, so that just goes to prove where his
    loyalties really are.
    
        Cunno.

    re .445
    
    Isn't Duncan Shearer a bit past it by now???
    I'd have thought United would've been better off going for a young
    player, like Alan Shearer of Southampton... 8-)
    Mind you, it'd be about right if Duncan Shearer did join the mancs, cos
    it's about the state of their team... past it!! ;-)
    Anyway, young Alan would have to be raving mad to join the mancs. he'd
    be much better off joining a team with a future...
    
    Stew.
    

    
    Re last couple of notes,
                            Brian is exactly right in his noting. Man. Utd.
    "were looking good" and Duncan Shearer would fit in perfectly at OT. He
    would suit their style and ability. However, Utd. may get a younger
    striker like Alan Shearer of S'ton as that is the general consensus in 
    the papers.
    
         Cunno.

    re last three notes
    
    	Obviously you are unaware of the Mancunian expression "were looking
    good"
    	Roughly translated means. If we are 2nd in the league and "were
    looking good", imagine what we will be like when we are in the TOP
    position ??!!! Probably "looking a little better"
    
    mac
    
    P.S. Sharpe did play in a reseve-ish game on Friday, which from what I
    can gather went without incident. He is down to play in another game
    either this week or next. 

    
    	The rumours around a possible swap + cash involving Wallace and
    	Alan Shearer continue...
    
    	This would be a tremendous move for United if they manage to
    	succeed. I expect the young man Shearer is pretty p*ssed off 
    	playing for Branfoot by now...Le Tissue is also likely to be off
    	soon I reckon..
    
    	I suggested about 3 months ago that we should try and trade
    	Wallace back to Saints in return for Shearer.
    
    	I'm sure he will be a success with United, which is more than
    	the Liverpool fans can say about their own side's investments
    	during the summer months. Saunders 2.9m, Wright 2.2m...8-)
    
    	Shearer is hot, and it'd be great if he decided to play at OT.
    
    	Andy.

    There was a Teletext report that said Wallace wasn't keen on going back
    to Soton yesterday, and any deal with Shearer on that basis was also
    off.
    
    jb.

    
    Re the last reply..
    
    I also heard on the local radio that Wallace does not want to return to
    play for the Saints.He says he is interested in getting back to play
    for a London club.
    
    
    I think Shearer would be a great asset to O.T.
    
    Heres hoping something possitive comes of these talks anyway.
    
    Nigel.
    
    

I read the same as the previous replies about Wallace not fancying going back to
`The Dell' in last night's Manchester Evening News!

Still, What do the paper's know anyway!!!

Here's hoping for some Hugggeeeeeee Goaaaaaaals this evening when Oldham come to
OT in the Rumbles Cup!

If you can't make it chaps Granada'll be showing highlights along with the
Everton V Sheepdip game! Come on you Toffee's!!!!!


United to win 3 - 1 tonight!!! 

Come you REDS!!!! RED ARMY RED ARMY RED ARMY!!!

    Brian,
     Beware, you are turning into a slightly nastier version of Cunno.
     Liverpool might be down at the moment, but i certainly have fond
     memories of YOUR down phase, which lasted for quite a few seasons.
     youd better hope that we STAY down, cos otherwise matey, Utd are going
     to take a big fall...
    Ian.

    
    	Ok guys...keep it on the level... 8-)
    
    	United have a tough tie tonight against the admirable battlers
    	from Oldham, who have deservedly found their winning form in
    	recent weeks with league wins against QPR (away) and Villa (home),
    	so I expect a close game. It may even go to a replay, so I will
    	prophesy a draw,  2 - 2...
    
    	But at least we'll be in the "hat" for the Q-Fs... 8-) 8-) 8-)
    
    	sorry, almost found myself laughing at the unfortunate 'pool
    	again following their ignominious exit to Peterboro United last
    	night..the season of goodwill seems to have arrived a little
    	earlier than usual....
    
    	Andy.
    

    Brian,
     im used to defeat too, this season, and i can take it...
     its a little harder to swallow when its bl**dy Peterborough!!!
     :-)
     just think how YOU'D feel if united lost to a lowly team like that...
     i think we've every right to be gutted...
    Ian.
    
    p.s PREDICTION: cunno to say "it means we've more time to concentrate
                                  on the league now that we havent to worry
                                  about 2-bit cups like the rumbelows
                                  anymore!"
    :-) :-)                                

    Where is the game tonight ?
    
    2-1 to Utd if at Old Trafford, 1-1 if at Boundary Park.
    
    We'll see you lot at Wembley in the final instead of the semis, and
    it's out turn this year !
    
    jb.

    re .461
    
    The Rumbelows Tie with Oldham is at OT, and I predict a comfortable win
    over our local neighbours: 3 - 0.
    
    As to seeing you at the Final, maybe ??? we might beat you before then
    !
    
    mac 
    

    Brian,
     I think you should polish those crystal balls of yours...
     Liverpool WILL be back...and ANOTHER 10 years+ of dominating the mancs
     looks very much on the cards.
     it shows what a sad 25 years these have been for you that as soon as
     United get a sniff of the chamionship champagne their supporters
     think theyre the best team on the planet...
    
    re. MINDER::MACDONALDI "MUFC ECWC Champions"
     in a few months prepare to change your personal name otherwise you may
     generate an error:
    
     SYSTEM-F-INVPERSNAME, invalid personal name, Man Utd out of trophy.
    
    :)
    
    Ian.
    

    
    At 10:20 p.m on SPORTSNIGHT on BBC.1 there will be a profile of
    ALEX FERGUSON over the past five years.There will also be a sneek
    preview of the new shelf there putting up for all our new trophys
    i.e league winners.Rumberlows.F.A cup.
    
                 : GLORY GLORY MAN UTD:

    surely they can use the shelf they used for the cup winners cup
    which you lost amid great 'glory',
    remember THIS, he who gets excited before christmas, does not
    remember the season of 1983 (or was it '85? - even i dont remember the
    last time that utd came close! :-)
    yours, with great sarcasm,
    Ian.
    

    re -2,
         I also hear that there is a video now available "Great Man.U.
    League successes 1967-91", total running time 3 mins. It details all
    those league successes with flashes of genius from Man. Utd. greats of 
    that all conquering period, household names like Gary Birtles, Paddy Roche,
    Stewart Houston, Viv Anderson, Mick Duxbury, Graeme Hogg, Chris Turner
    with a special introduction by that player of rare ability...........
    ................Micky Phelan.
    
          Cunno.

    3 minutes????
    
    So, what are they showing on the other 2 minutes 30 seconds then??
    
    A Tom and Jerry cartoon?? 8-)
    
    Stew.
    

The previous notes just go to show the true feelings of all these so called
Looneypool followers.

Your all simply jealous of the WORLDS GREATEST MOST FAMOUS FOOTBALL CLUB!








			MANCHESTER UNITED F.C



It doesn't matter how many cups Looneypool win you'll still be jealous.

Be sportsmen & accept defeat when your playing CRAP!!!!!

    Brian,
    
    ill remember you said that when the end of the season comes and youre
    saying 'yes, so Leeds won the league, but what a great 5 months
    Man Utd had!'
    also, the saying, "youre only as good as your last game" is pure crap
    and only generally quoted by someone who won their last game.
    ok, so Liverpool are crap in YOUR opinion...
    who the hell are you? i dont see YOU in a Man Utd strip at OT on a
    saturday afternoon! i dont think Man Utd are rubbish, i think they are
    very good, and i dont think its very fair of you to call ANY team
    rubbish.
    can we just end this stupid banter and get onto real issues now?
    Ian.
    

    Personally, I'd have thought "greatness" would have to be judged by
    past triumphs, and trophies won...
    
    Wouldn't you agree?? If a club hadn't won any trophies in it's history
    it couldn't be said to be a "great" club, could it?!?
    Therefore, if one club had won more trophies than any other club in the
    country in the past 20 years (theoretically speaking of course ;-) )
    then that club would have to be the "greatest" club in the country over
    the past 20 years... 
    
    In those terms, Liverpool are immensely greater than Man Utd!!!
    They will also continue to be greater than Man Utd, because I don't
    think (and this is MY opinion) that the mancs have the stamina to last
    an entire season... 
    Plus, it gives me great pleasure to see United fail in their bid for
    the league title year after year, 'cos the attitude of most of the manc
    fans I know is a "we've a divine right to win the league" type of one,
    and if the players have the same sort of attitude then it's going to be
    a very long time before they do win the title again...
    
    Stew.
     

Hummmm??????

    re .476
    
    So what would you be doing outside Old Trafford every other Saturday 
    when Man Utd were playing away from home??  8-)
    Or is that too personal a question??  8-)
    
    Stew.
    
    

    a very good question....
    
    and one i cant answer!
    foot in the mouth time!!!
    
    Ian.

    RE STOCKMANS
    
    I take it your having an easy day today, I mean 3 replies in this topic
    in one day. Amazing.
                                       
    RE - other
    
    If UTD had won the league as many times as Looneypool, we would probably
    have a following up unbeleivable proportions. We would have had to have
    bought Hampden Pk, or maybe the San Sera Stadium(SP?) by now. 
    
    But with boring Looneypool winning it, its got boring, that's why
    Looneypool support is thinning out, or even falling, and now even their
    playing standards are being affected. 
    
    Roll on the next generation of League Winners, maybe even Looneypool can
    come back and make an impression this decade, on saying that, I don't
    care who wins as long as they are a Northern Team. Yes even Tranny
    Rovers, or maybe Stalybridge Celtic, Top of the the HFS Premier League
    at this moment(and where I live), I bet even they might have beat 
    Looneypool last night! 

     anyway, on a serious note, i think it must be said that the big clubs
     like Liverpool, Man Utd, Leeds, Everton, Arsenal etc.. are pretty much
     incapable of going down and staying down like the teams of yesteryear
     like Huddersfield, Fulham(?) etc... because they simply have too much
     money these days, and can simply buy themselves out of trouble if it
     all gets too much...
     sad, but true,
     even sadder is the fact that Liverpool did, and we got 
     Saunders and Wright :-(
     Ian.
    

    
    MANCS  2  OLDHAM  0
    
    McClair  1 min
    Kanchelskis  25 mins
    
    
    
    
    greg.

    
    	Solid performance by United last night in what could have been an
    	awkward local-derby tie. We created many chances but only converted 
    	two of them - a lovely header by McClair followed by a tremendous
    	Robson pass to Kanchelskis to run on to and beat the keeper.
    
    	Lots of good stuff in the second half but no more goals. Into the
    	hat for the QF draw...please can we avoid Leeds (Leeds Leeds) until
    	later on..they looked *hot* last night..
    
    	Andy.
    

Brilliant game last night!
The first half we played some really skillful football.

Kanchelskis played a stormer! The best I've seen him play yet. He was extremely
fast & had no probs whatsoever running around & taking on the Oldham players.

He was not surprisingly Man of the Match (Voted for by David Meek - Manc Evening
News).

Parker,Bruce,Webb & McClair I thought played particularly well. Hughes got booked
& he deserved it. Hughes seemed to have a lot of probs getting into the game &
his frustration showed!!!

Oldham weren't really a real threat although they did break thru a couple of
times. A fine save by Schmeichel prevented there best chance.

Earl Barret made a fine stop when he had to volley the ball off the line.

Ryan Giggs had a quiet game & was brought off 5/10 minutes from the end to be 
replaced by CLAYTON BLACKMORE.

RE .487

Robson came off due to a Calf injury. He'll be out for the game on saturday 
against Coventry & possibly for the next 10 days.
Saying that though when Robbo did come off United's performance in the first half
didn't drop at all which is a sure sign that they're most certainly is life
after Robbo.

The second half wasn't quite so good as the first but still a pleasure to watch!

I must say Paul Parker amazes me at the balls he manages to get to!!!
That bloke is solid defender, especially when you consider his size!




Bye for now!!!

FERGUSON'S RED & WHITE ARMY!!! FERGUSON'S RED & WHITE ARMY!!!

Re - A few notes back. Hi Mac. Yer, things are a little more quiet than usual.
Thought I'd take the time to punch in a few notes. 


Si

    re .486
    
    >tremendous Robson pass to Kanchelskis to run on to and beat the keeper
                ------
    
    It was that MOM (Man of the Moment) Choccy who supplied the superb ball
    for Kan* to to run on to and score.
    
    As has been expressed, Utd seem a more solid team all round, not just
    in certain areas, a noticeable area in in the back line up, which then
    reflects on to the keeper. I think Schmichiel(SP?) was an excellent
    buy, he had his few hiccups earlier in the season, but has gained in
    confidence with every game, as has Kans*, and his handling and
    distribution is an asset, to any team. Did you see the throw to
    Hughe/McClair from the box to the player, it only just bounced on the
    half-way line. 
    
    Must admit Earl Barret looks a good defender. Was by far Oldhams
    best player. 
    Hughes seems to be out of sorts with the current set-up at the moment,
    should be interesting what happens to him! although a great admirer of
    his skills.
    
    MAc 

    
    	Well it's Coventry City at OT tomorrow, and I hope we can continue
    	our good form and put the Sky Blues away in style.
    
    	This season has shown a tremendous improvement in our ability
    	to pick up wins home and away against sides like this when in
    	past seasons we've struggled despite good performances against
    	"pace-setters" (ie. Liverpool and Arsenal).
    
    	I'll predict a comfortable 3 - 1 win to United, with Hughes getting
    	a couple and Giggs the third.
    
    	Hopefully (though highly unlikely!!) Luton can mug Leeds and let
    	us back on top. Realistically, Leeds could hit double figures
    	tomorrow so a win will keep us on course, with that game in hand.
    
    	Andy.

    Brian, who scored the own-goal and which team was the beneficiary?
    
    JC

    
    	Another great performance by United on Saturday, with Webb again
    	having a stormer. Goals from Bruce, Webb and McClair in the first
    	half effectively finished the game, and a less impressive second
    	half only produced one goal for Hughes.
    
    	Lee Sharpe came through a 2-2 draw successfully and is expected
    	to be challenging for a place very soon.
    
    	With Leeds also winning and most of the chasing group losing or
    	drawing, a nine-point gap has opened up to 3rd place (Sheff. Wed.)
    
    	United and Leeds were drawn against each other in both the QF of
    	the League Cup and the 3rd round of the FA Cup over the weekend.
    	These games will be played about two weeks after the big Dec.29th
    	clash....should get interesting in the next few weeks... 8-)
    
    	Andy.

    re -1
    
    !	United and Leeds were drawn against each other in both the QF of
    ! 	the League Cup and the 3rd round of the FA Cup over the weekend.
    !	These games will be played about two weeks after the big Dec.29th
    !	clash....should get interesting in the next few weeks... 8-)
    
    Whatever gives you that idea ;-) !!!
    
    Games to be played at Elland Road in the near future :-
    
    Dec 14 Tottenham
    Dec 26 Soton
    Dec 29 The Mancs (league)
    Jan  4 ditto     (FAC3)
    Jan  7 ditto     (FLCQF)
    
    There is a meeting today (Monday) between Bill Fotherby (Ledds United's
    Manageing Directir), PC Plod and Martin Edwards to sort out ticket
    allocation and policing. It is likely the Mancs will get 2,500 tickets
    for the League game, 8,000 for the FLCQF (thr family stand may have to
    be relocated) and ? for the FAC3 game. More details later.
    
    With Arsenal proclaiming they were 'coming up on the rails' in the
    Sunday press, the wrong sort of snow / leaves / heat derailed them, and
    they promptly lost to a good Forest side. Liverpool got a (in the eyes
    of Cunno perchance) a 'winning draw' at Southampton, Man City lost
    again, Villa and Sheff Wed both won, Villa convincingly, and Sheff Wed
    just.
    
    There is a BIG gap of 9 points between 2nd placed Manchester United and
    3rd placed Sheff Wed - the first clash of the Div 1 form teams on 29
    Dec will be very interesting. Watch this space !
    
    jb.

    I think the drawing of Leeds United and Manchester United in both Cup
    competitions is a piece of calculted skullduggery by lesser teams such
    as Liverpool and Arsenal. By knocking Manchester United out of both
    competitions at an early stage (possibly after replays), they think they
    will have a chance for honours this season, because the Mancs will be
    out of the competitions and Leeds United will be knackered.
    
    This is clearly not the case.
    
    It'a a pity the Leeds - Man U meetings couldn't be at a later stage of
    the season, but lesser teams must be left some crumbs ;-)
    
    jb.
    
    

    
    	re .503..
    
    	Surely not, jb... Liverpool and Arsenal have already made their
    	exits from the League Cup this season so their own chances of
    	winning it it remain zero  8-) 8-)
                             
    	Andy.

     
    It looks like pool supporters have given up hope. I just checked
    the unseen replies in the pool topic and all the conversation was 
    about Utd and Leeds. These are indeed troubled times at Anfield.
    Isn't that a shame? 
    
    JC

    JC,
    
    looking carefully, which you havent, your Manc-red tinted glasses must
    be giving you trouble...you will notice that it is not the Liverpool
    supporters that are talking about the two one-season wonders at the top
    of the table...
    Mr Shaunessy is on about Liverpools next game and i am taking the p*ss
    out of cunno...
    
    why do manc supporters always think that everyone is talking about them
    when no-one cares...
    Manchester United have always been a second place team, so the fact
    that they are in second place is no suprise!
    The reason that everyone delights in talking about Liverpools demise is
    that we have always been a FIRST place team.
    Even a person with your spectacles cannot deny that.
    and anyway, Mr Chaves, if we are SO cr*p, how comes YOU, 'the mighty
    2nd place Mancs' did not beat us?
    were you hexed?
    
    Ian.
    

    
    	Yellow card for Mr Hawley..... 8-)

    Andy,
    forgot the :-)s on the end of my last letter....
    :-)
    Ian.
    

    re.513
    
    i too must applaud Leeds stance on this matter.
    i have not heard anything much chanted about the Hillsborough disaster
    for a long time and must applaud all the fans countrywide for
    respecting this.
    Ian.
    

    just looked a little further back i the Liverpool topic,
    seems JC is right, some Liverpool noters HAVE been talking about
    the mancs and Leeds and who will win this 'clash of the titans'...
    nice to see some people taking an unbiased stance and discussing other
    topics rather than talking about how many their team is going to win by
    all the time.
    personally, i think that the honours from the 3 matches will go to
    Leeds. They are lethal at home.
    Ian.
    

    re -512
    
  >>  United Reserves beat Coventry 1-0
    
    	In the paper I read that Coventry Reserves beat Utd Reserves 1-0.
    This was a United team that had some first teamers in it
    i.e. Gary Walsh, Mike Phelan!, Lee Sharpe, Danny Wallace, Mark Robbins.
    
    Did anyone watch  A Question Of Sport last night, it had Mr Brains of
    the univers, Paul Parker, he seemed a bit slow etc...
    A bet Cunno was kissing the screen last night, the mystery guest was
    none other than the TGA. 
    What intriges(sp?) me is how TGA could be on TV and be losing to Notts
    Forrest at the same time?????!!!!!
    
    
    mac

    re.last
    
    well, cunno did say he was gifted!
    Ian.
    

    re -last
    
    Maybe he should stick to cleaning windows.
    
    back to UTD, 
    
    Good to see Webby get his England B team callup, after being out of the
    scene ofr the last two years, he must have thought he would never play
    for England. Well good luck to him.
    Rumours he may be captain of UTD very soon ??!!
    
    MAc

    
    	re back a few..
    
    	Yes Ian, we do have a lot of respect for Leeds (Leeds Leeds) and
    	expect the coming clashes to be very difficult games indeed - our
    	entire season *could* be torpedoed in three trips to Elland Road!
    
    	However, these two sides are so evenly matched that I doubt it will	
    	happen like that, nor the other way around either! I think we'll
    	lose the League Cup QF, probably draw in the FA Cup, and hopefully
    	will avoid a defeat in the League game. 
    
    	United don't want to lose sight of the goal of the League title, 
    	and I for one will gladly give up the League Cup (which we failed 
    	to win last season when perhaps we shopuld have done..no disrespect 
    	to Sheff.Wed, they deserved the result on the day..) for the chance 
    	of being in the shake-up in May.
    
    	Let's face the reality - we won't win everything this year, nor
    	will be win the double (few sides have - even the mighty Liverpool
    	had to wait until '87 to do that despite their tremendous dominance
    	of the English domestic honours over the last 15 years or so.)
    
    	We've done well in the FA Cup in recent times, but still miss out 
    	on The Big One. Let's win the League and to hell with the cups -
    	they're nice for the glory but detract from the main aim.
    
    	Andy.

    yeah, Tommy was born in Barnsley and played for Barnsley before joining
    United. Talk to any elderly person in Barnsley and they will remember
    Tommy with great affection.
    Tommy, of course, was killed in the air crash and the whole town
    mourned him. hundreds of people turned up to his funeral in the village
    of Monk Bretton (where i used to live) and there he was buried.
    Ian.
    

    
    Well it's a big day on Sunday. The mighty Chelsea 8-) are entertaining
    the Mancs. I have a great deal of confidence that Chelsea will up set 
    the Vistors. I seem to remember last year we done the double over you,
    I think both games ended 3-2 (I may be wrong).
    This same team was also the only ones to defeat (In the League)the Arse
    last year.
    
    My predition:    Chelsea 2 Man Utd 1
    
    Cheers
    Nige..... (Come on you bluesssss)
    

    
    The blues will again make it out 6 out of 6. As for an "easy 2-0 win",
    well there is no such thing at Stamford bridge (unless your names
    Norwich). 
    
    You've forced me to change my prediction
    
    Chelsea 3 Man Utd 1
    
    Cheers
    Nige....
    
    P.S So this is where Stockman hangs out. Sorry Simon but you
    never did have any taste. 8-)
                                                                        

    re .527
    
    I'm sorry to disappoint you Brian, if you thought you were going to get
    rid of Mike Phelan that easily, but the 'pool only buy class players!!!
    
    Stew. 8-)
    
    

    
    	>> the 'pool only buy class players...
    
    	yeah, like Jimmy Carter 8-)
    
    	Phelan started getting noticed for his attacking from midfield
    	whilst at Norwich - big fish in little pool syndrone - but since
    	his dream move to OT has worked his way back to now being a useful
    	"utility" defensive midfielder/right full-back. 
    
    	He's not great by any stretch, but he does try hard and is not a
    	bad reserve when the regulars are out.
    
    	We still paid far too much for him though..
    
    	Andy.

    Barry Venison has probably won more championships than the whole of the
    Manchester United team put together!
    :^)
    Ian.
     

Re-1

And donkeys....as well....so there..!!!!

Eorrr..Eooorrrr...

Re 532...

And he is still a donkey....!!!!!

    re.533
    
    donkeys dont have haircuts like that, pal
    :-)
    

    good point Brian!
    i stand corrected!
    
    Ian.
    

    re a few back _
    
    Phelan goibg to Liverpool - won't this upset one well known Scouse
    supporter from Galway, who has described said player in less than
    glowing terms in the old footie conference ?
    
    jb.

       <<< YUPPY::DISK$A1DISK1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]FOOTBALL_ARCHIVE.NOTE;3 >>>
                                 -< FOOTBALL >-
    re -1 - here's the proof !!
    jb.
    
================================================================================
Note 192.1455  Manchester United - rumours/facts/anything you want  1455 of 1525
ESSB::MCUNNIFFE "The Mancs will never win the League" 9 lines  13-JUN-1991 14:27
                             -< Useless players. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    If I were Sampdoria, I would leave Webb where he is. How anybody can be
    interested in a player of his inability is beyond me. Other so called
    "players" that the Mancs would find very hard to sell are Mike
    "useless" Phelan, Mal Donaghy, Danny Wallace plus another four or five
    that are so insignificent that I have forgotten their names.
    
        Aldo.
    
    

    did cunno REALLY sign his notes 'aldo'?
    Ian.
    

     Onto Sunday, Man Utd play Chelsea away at Stamford Bridge, this match
    is being televised LIVE on ITV. Should be a good one.
    
    Utd to win 3 - 0.
    Scorers: Hughes x 2 and McClair.
    
    Maybe Leeds(Leeds Leeds) might slip up at home to SPurs, then we are 2
    points clear with a game in hand.
    
    Mac
    
    P.S. Just heard/read the Robbo will be out of the Chelsea game, due to
    breaking down in training. Utd are not trying to rush Robbo through,
    they want him for the clashes with Leeds. Also Lee Sharpe is a little
    further on the road to recovery, he is playing for the A team on
    Saturday in a steady rehabilitation stretch, again trying to be match
    fit for against Leeds. Paul Parker should be ok for the game against
    Chelsea after picking up an ankle knock against Coventry last week.
    Utd did their training on the OT pitch yesterday, due to hard frost
    covering their training ground pitches.

    
    UNITED 3     CHELSEA 1
    
    Irwin 19     Allen 76
    McClair 57
    Bruce 61 (pen)
    
    nice one lads!
    
    GREG.
    
    

 
    	What a great result for United yesterday, at one of our less
    	favourite hunting grounds in recent visits.
    
    	A goalkeeping error (looked like total misjudgement) by Hitchcock
    	gave United the lead with an Irwin free-kick from 25 yards in what
    	then became a scrappy and unconvincing 1st half.
    
    	After the break Chelsea seemed to lift their game, but it only
    	allowed United to attack particularly down the right wing where
    	Kanchelskis gave Boyd a roasting. Lovely back-heel by Hughes to
    	the Russian, who drilled the cross for McClair to tap in..2-0
    
    	United then played some wonderful stuff as the pressure seemed
    	to lift and the confidence surged through the side. Hughes, put 
    	away on the left, ignored McClair in the middle (who looked to
    	be in an offside position..),advanced into the box and was tripped
    	by (I think) Clarke. Bruce converted the spot-kick.
    
    	Chelsea threw everything forward for the last 15 minutes, and Clive 
    	Allen scored the goal of the match with a tremendous diving header.
    	If he'd converted an easier chance in the first half which struck
    	the bar things might have been different..
    
    	Hughes got MotM from Lee Chapman much to the approval of the
    	magnanimous Chelsea fans, but United's effort was definately a team 
    	one, with Webb and Ince outstanding in midfield. Giggs' pace 
    	threatened to embarass the home defence on a number of occasions but 
    	his crossing didn't live up to the billing.
    
    	3 good points for United, which sees us back on top with Leeds
    	(Leeds Leeds) dropping two home points to the bankrupt boys from
    	Norf Larnden.
    
    	Out-of-form Villa visit OT next Saturday, and then the start of the
    	marathon at Elland Road.
    
    	Should make for an interesting crimble.
    
    	Andy.

    must agree with the sentiments expressed by Stew in the Liverpool
    conference, Man United were very impressive and fully deserved the win.
    I thought Pallisters headed clearances were most impressive 
    (where does he get all that power from?) and Giggs and Kanchelskis
    ran rings around the Chelsea midfield and defence.
    However, i thought Chelsea made you look a bit second class in the last
    10-15 mins. Although your defence held well and as ive always said
    'good defences win championships'
    (however, i was made to eat my words in '89 when Arsenal won the
    championship by virtue of scoring more goals :-) :-)
    Ian.
    

    
    > However, i thought Chelsea made you look a bit second class in the last
    > 10-15 mins. 
    
    The only reason Chelsea looked reasonable was because Giggs was taken
    off. This gave Chelsea more of a chance to push up without [too much]
    fear of yet another roasting down the wing. Also, being 3 up, you do
    tend to relax -- ask Forest (vs Arsenal) 

    never realised that Man United could be so affected by the loss of
    one seventeen year old.
    I accept your argument about relaxing...as a Liverpool supporter i 
    have bad memories of such occurances :-)
    but some good ones, like Norwich V Aston Villa 2 years ago to give us
    ANOTHER championship.
    Ian.
    

  
I've never been so sick of all this talk about that young Giggs lad or that
Lee Sharpe before him. They play a couple of fairly good games and the whole
football world go crazy about him. When either of those young pretenders can
do one-tenth of the things that Barnsie can do, then I will accept that they 
are good players but not until then.
Another poxy win for the Mancs yesterday with a Courtney penalty awawrd that
looked dubious to say the least. 
I wish all you fellow noters a merry xmas and a happy new year and xmas would
be extra special if Liverpool can keep winning and if Leeds can beat the Mancs
in all three games.

     Cunno  

    
    Congratulations to United on the win, who at the end of the day were	
    the better team.
    However I do feel that certain decisions in the game cost Chelsea 
    dearly. I felt that Pallister climbing over Wise in the first half
    was a penalty. It certainly looked it from where I was sitting.
    If the penalty was given, the score would of been 1-1. Needless to
    say George 'Northern' Courtney needed a four man police escort off the
    pitch at half time.
    In the second half Hughes controlled the ball with his arms before 
    back heeling the ball to lead to the second goal. Score still 1-1??.
    Sorry for moaning, I did feel Man United were the better team on the day
    and will probably win the title. (They certainly have more flair than
    Leeds). 
    What is the matter with some refs?? Perhaps the idea of recording
    incidents for refs that are unsure should be used.
    
    Yours moaningly 
    Nige... 
                         

    Alex Ferguson has made another dramatic swoop into the transfer market
    and snapped up Liverpool's star performer for an undisclosed 8 figure
    sum. The secret deal was completed last week and George Courtney made
    his United debut on Sunday.

    
    For those readers that weren't fortunate to watch yesterday's victory
    by United over Chelsea by three goals to one, ignore the bunches of
    sour grapes in eveidence in here over the past couple of notes..
    
    Clarke's trip of Hughes for the spot-kick was as blatant a trip
    as you will ever see, Hughes *didn't* handle just before the superb
    back-heel to Kanchelskis - he was right in front of the ref and
    Courtenay's *never* done United any favours - and Martin's only 
    jealous that Giggs is a United player. He wasn't outstanding yesterday
    but you could certainly see what he could be in the near future.
    
    Just my unbiased opinion... 8-)
    
    Andy.

    is Mark Hughes the worlds most hated player now that Maradonna has left
    the stage?
    Ian.
    

    Re last few..
    
    The trip on Hughes was an obvious one, the ref was right.
    
    The ball did hit Hughes arm, on the build up to the 2nd goal, but it
    was not deliberate hand ball, therefore no foul.
    
    As for referees...the only people involved in the game, who have to
    pass exams on the Laws of the game, have regular eye tests, and have to
    go through a very structured 'apprenticeship' prior to achieving
    Football League status, are referees.  Players do not have to do such a
    thing, they turn up and play, provided they are good enough. It makes me 
    gasp at some of the
    comments from old pros (and indeed present players and managers) about
    refs decisions, when its obvious that they dont know the laws of the
    game. Its a tough job being a ref, but they are necessary...who else
    could you blame when your team gets beat ??
    
    Paul

    
    
    Maybe now that George Courtney is following Utd, should make it a
    little easier on teams when they travel to Anfield. They should be safe
    in the knowledge that he won't play an extra 10/15 mins so that the
    'pool can win in the last minute. Maybe even the other way round.. We
    shall wait and see.
    
    Roll on Saturday, at home to Villa, who have only won 1 out of their
    last fives games, we should comfortably beat them, with the possibility
    of Sharpe and Robson contending for places. 4 - 0 to UTD...
    
    Mac.
    
    P.S. Any comments on Clive Allens booking!!!!
    

    Come on you United fans; admit it should have been 3-0 to Chelsea.
    Allen hit the bar, had one kicked off the line & scored. United's first
    came from Hughes pretending Elliot had fouled him; even then it was the
    goalie's mistake to let the free kick in. The second was a definate
    hand-ball by Hughes; saw him take the lace out. And the Chelsea player
    (Wise?) would easily have cleared the ball except for McClair pushing
    him over. As for the penalty - never in a month of Sundays. 

    Simon,
    
    Has it been your office party this lunchtime ? ;-)
    
    jb.

    
    
    I read this in one of the papers.
    
    Q : What is difference between Manchester United and a TEABAG ????
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    A: A TEABAG stays longer in the CUP.
    
    
    Jayesh.

    I finally got to see the 4:0 trashing of Coventry last night on
    sports channel. I was kinda sleeping with one eye open, but I think I
    heard the announcer say Utd will be LIVE on the boob-tube this weekend.
    If this is true, whom are we up against on Saturday? I hope Leeds and
    not Villa.
    
    Nice to see us back in first place while maintaining the game on hand.
    I've had the opportunity to watch a bit of City and Sheff Wednesday and 
    they don't seem to have enough quality players to catch us. Three
    points against Leeds and the OTHER Utd will join the long list of
    pretenders.
    
    JC
    

    Watched Leeds vs Spurs live over here Saturday. Leeds had their
    chances, but Spurs could have won it on two easy ones. Fair result.
    Commentator made a good point - Leeds are an 'old' side relatively
    speaking, and over the long haul, they'll fade. I predict United to
    take the championship, with Liverpool just unable to make up the
    ground.
    
    The Christmas season always shows who is hot. Any team in the top 8 who
    can come through to the FA Cup 3rd round games unbeaten from now has an
    excellent chance at a run - this is where it really starts. So United,
    only a single point dropped will convince me, and best to have maximum.
    Leeds will be no trouble in the league game at Elland - they MUST win,
    United can tie. Sit back and make them score. United to win 1-0.
    
    Paul in Canada

    
    > Leeds are an 'old' side ...
    
    Interesting thought. Six of the first choice 11 are 26 years
    old or younger. The average age of the first choice 12 is 
    just over 27 (about ideal for a team). The oldies are Strachan (34)
    obviously and Chapman who was 32 last week. Lukic is 31 this week
    but that's not so old for a keeper.
    
    Anyone care to hazard a guess at the average age of Man Utd's
    first choice 11 or 12 ?

    re .561
    
    probably about 17!! 8-)
    
    Also, Hughes definately handled the ball before United's second goal
    against Chelsea, and anyone doubting this should look at the tv
    pictures!!
    There shouldn't be any such thing as non-deliberate handball... if the
    ball hits a player on the arm then play should be stopped. 
    Only my opinion, but could stop these inconsistencies.
    
    Stew.
    

    Brian,
    your opinion of all scouse fans is one that we have become used to
    from all manc fans.
    i didnt think it was hand ball either.
    so nur!
    Ian.
    
    

    What is the story with tickets now that United are cruising to a
    Championship win??
    
    How does the credit card booking work??
    
    
    Paul

    Well, they are aren't they?
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Apparently MUFC are proposing to raise admission prices including
    season tickets by 50% next season. Their fans are revolting.

    really ?
    
    I was quoting the commentator (mistake!), but he seemed to be basing
    his statement on last years analysis - that Leeds faded near the end. 
    
    Sure, United probably are no spring chickens themselves. The blend is
    what really matters, end experience really does count, specially at
    this time of year. Thanks for the clarification.
    
    Paul

    
    What is everyones reaction to news that UTD will be banning ALL AWAY
    fans from OT next season.
    This is very much in discussion at the moment because of the
    development work scheduled for next season on the Stretford End. At the
    moment the Stretford End is mainly standing, with some seats to the
    back of the stand, but in complying with the Taylors Report UTD have to
    make their ground an all seater. Thus have to build a NEW all seater 
    Stretford End.
    
    Presently UTD's ground can hold up to 47500 at the most, with the
    shutting down of the Stretford End next season the capacity will be cut
    down to 34000. UTD average home gate this season is 42000, so a lot of
    people are going to miss out next year anyway, mainly the loyal
    working-class supporters, especially when UTD have 60000 members on
    their scheme.
    Ideas that have been floating about are:
    1. UTD will increase entrance fees to all home games next season, by about 
    50%.(anyone give average prices and how this would affect them)
    2. All League games next season will be ticket only.
    3. That banning all away supporters from OT, allowing UTD fans ONLY
    into the ground. This will not be the case for FA and Rumbelows Cup
    games, as they have to allocate a certain % of space for away fans, as
    ruled by the FA etc...
    4. Another point for the future is that they LOWER the OT pitch, thus
    giving more room for development to new stands, or alternatively that
    they do a major rebuild of all the stands, but a a huge cost(millions)!
    COMMENTS ANYONE!!
    
    Other news: UTD's hopes of signing Southampton Shearer (is that in
    sheep shearer??) have been dashed by the fact that the saints want him
    to finish the season with them, obviously if the right money offer
    comes along then I think he will go, but at the moment everthing is on
    hold.
    Ryan Giggs was sub last night as UTD Youth team played Walsall in the
    FA Youth Cup 3rd Round, it said in the Man Evening News, that he would
    only be sub because UTD wanted to give the other lads the glory and the
    chance as they have been doing well without Giggs who has been on 1st
    team duty, and that they would only use him if necessary. They still
    want him to be part of the youth set-up as he will be with people his
    own age. 
    P.S. Utd won 2-1.
    
    Mac

    I dont agree with banning away fans from grounds, it creates a false
    atmosphere, and makes the team who do it unpopular....Look at how much
    everyone likes Luton !!!. In an ideal world all the other clubs should
    ban Utd fans when they play ManU, but of course ManU fans bolster the
    gates, and they gey more money so they wont. Even if its a nominal 
    500-1000, they should try to make some provision for them.
     
    As for putting the prices up 50%.....smacks of exploitation
    to me. It really seems to playing on the emotions of an extremely
    faithful following..it was always said that if 11 donkeys turned out
    for ManU (and until recently some people may say this was the case   
    8-) ), that 40,000 would turn up to watch them. What is the purpose of
    the increase..is it to raise funds for the rebuilding programme ??.
    
    Paul
    

just a though on the last note:


	With what looks like a new premier league next year run by the FA, will
	the FA rule etc apply to the league as well. So can Utd ban away fans
	after all????



	Mick
	

    As far as I know the rule applies only to the FA cup, but as you say
    with the new league next year run by the FA, it will be interesting to
    see what happens.
    Paul

    
    	Although I do not agree with the idea of banning away fans, the
    	reasons behind the proposal (yet to be approved..) are sound.
    
    	United have extensive work to be carried out on the Stretford End
    	to comply with the Taylor report on all-seater stadia, and this
    	reduces the OT capacity to about 34K. With approx. 50K members,
    	United decided they owed their allegiances to those members. 
    
    	An unfortunate situation. I don't believe United would be
    	particularly happy about having to limit attendance to home fans
    	only - away support is part of the atmosphere - but they probably
    	feel they have no choice. As it is, 16K members can't get a ticket
    	anyway!

    	Andy.

    re: a couple back
    
    The reason UTD are putting up their prices is to compensate for the
    loss of revenue that they would have normally got with an average
    attendance of 42000. With the capacity reduced to 34000 UTD have put up
    their prices to reflect little or no loss, or so that is what they
    think/say !!! It has nothing to do with paying for the re-building!
    
    So seats are going to be very rare, and if they are available then they
    will be more expensive!!
    As it stands at the moment and the OT capacity down to 34000, and a
    match comes up which is an all ticket affair. The priority goes to the
    season-ticket holders first, which must be 10-15 thousand, it then goes
    to the League-match-ticket holders another 10-15 thousand, therefore
    not leaving many places left for ordinary paying fan, plus on top of
    that the away supporters and segregation needed. 
    (The above figures are a VERY rough outline)
    
    Mac

    theyre probably the richest club in Britain...
    they should be able to afford to keep the prices the same...
    you're being taken advantage of, mate.
    Ian.
    

    As I recall, but my memeory isnt what it used to be....When rangers
    made their stadium all seater, except for a small terrace in front of
    the old stand, it decreased their capacity to 38,500. They also have an
    over subscribed membership scheme. They did not push prices up 50%..i
    think it was 25%..and also have an area for away fans.
    
    If the price increase is to compensate for loss of revenue, then I
    eagerly await the announcement of price decreases when the building
    work is finished.......and pigs fly in formation.
    Paul
    
    ps its the Scots who are supposed to be mean, or is Fergie THAT
    influential ??? 

    re: last
    
    >> they are the richest club in Britain
    
    Not true,
    
    Glasgow Rangers are the richest team in Britain, they are expected to
    sign a deal with Adidas soon, worth 12 million.
    
    mac

    re .577
    
    I think you'll find Ian said that Man Utd were *probably* the richest
    club in Britain... so there's no need to start a petty argument... ;-)
    
    Stew
    

        
    What's all this about the 'ordinary paying fan' - surely season ticket
    holders count as 'ordinary paying fans' - they pay all their money up
    front - so why shouldn't they get priority ? - It's hard on people
    (like myself) who can't go every week, but in United's case they can
    probably fill Old Trafford next season with season ticket holders alone
    - so why should they make special arrangements for non-season ticket
    holders ?
    
    Most first division grounds are still in a disgusting state, at least
    the tragedy at Hillsborough and the Taylor report has finally forced
    clubs to begin to bring their grounds up to date - terracing will soon
    be a thing of the past - it's a shame in someways but Hillsborough and
    Ibrox proved the dangers of cramming thousands of people into small
    spaces. 
    
    The only thing I can't understand about Old Trafford is - why have they
    spent the last couple of years converting the two sides to seating only
    If they have realised how much capacity they'd lose while redeveloping
    the Stretford End, why didn't they leave the paddock areas standing
    until the Stretford end had been completed ?
    
    Paul

   >> it's a shame in someways but Hillsborough and Ibrox proved the
   >> dangers of cramming thousands of people into small spaces. 
   
Paul, 
     Excuse my "ignorance", but what happened in Ibrox that warranted 
     a review of crowd control.

Rgds,
Shaughs.

    
    I'm sure some of the McNoters can fill in the details, but basically a
    number of people were crushed to death when a large section of the
    crowd were leaving before the end of the game - somebody scored and
    people tried to get back in - chaos followed - it was about 1972ish (I
    think)
    
    Paul

    re: last
    
    The ordinary paying fan, would probably not be able to afford the
    200/300-500+ pound cost of Season tickets, just to watch a game. Not in
    one lump sum anyway.
    
    But yes, like you say UTD could probably fill the stadium with Season
    ticket holders, if the ordinary paying fan, could firstly afford it and
    secondly get hold of one.
    They are as scarce as Ian Rush goals against UTD
    
    mac
    
    Re: A few back:
    >> the richest club in Britain
    
    My apologies, you did mention 'probably', but just thought I would
    throw a little snippet in ther, FYI.
     

    it was January 1971, a couple of days after i was born...
    probably January 2nd.
    Ian.
    

    Just to clear up a point, and bring back very painful memories...
    
    The Ibrox disaster, where 66 people were crushed to death, had nothing
    whatsover to do with crowd trouble, or being packed into small terraced
    areas.
    
    At that time Ibrox would hold approx 100,000 people, there was a new
    years day derby between Rangers and Celtic.  Celtic went 1 up with 2
    mins to go, at which some Rangers started drifting away.  rangers
    equalised with virtually the last kick of the game. As the remaining
    crowd were leaving, coming down huge stairs from the back of very high
    terraces, they wer met with the people who had left early, trying to
    get back up to find out what had happened. There was a crush, the
    barriers collapsed, and hundreds of people cascaded down the slope, to
    the bottom, 66 to meet their death.  A repeat of this would be diffcult
    as most grounds are much smaller than Ibrox was then, although hampden
    has to be a safety hazard.
    
    Im almost certain it was 1st Jan, definitely 1971..as I think they
    banned local derbies on New years day for many years after.
    yours, soberly remembering 2 lost friends.....
    Paul

    Paul,
     i am sorry for your loss.
     you are right, it was Jan 1st 1971.
     The day after i was born.
    Ian.
    

    yeah!
    youre all invited!
    know where Barnsley is?!?!?!
    ;-)
    Ian '21 soon!'
    
    p.s Brian, a simple draw between Man U and Leeds would be a nice
        present.
    
         

       
RE .584


Paul,

     My belated condolences, but I had no idea that happened at Ibrox.
I'm sorry if it brought back painful memories. However, thanks for that
information, I will know in future.

Rgds,
Tom. 

    re.576
    
    FYI,when Rangers built their new stands at Ibrox,their average
    attendance was only 12,000...and therefor the closure of certain parts
    of the ground during the rebuilding had no affect on their finances
    whatsoever !
    
    

    re.576
    
    FYI,when Rangers built their new stands at Ibrox,their average
    attendance was only 12,000...and therefor the closure of certain parts
    of the ground during the rebuilding had no affect on their finances
    whatsoever !
    
    
    P.S.   I'm glad you said the Scots were supposed to be mean !! 8*))
                                            ^^^^^^^^
    

    Re. last few
    
    Who said terracing has to be people 'packed into a small space'?  I see
    no problem with a ten person deep standing section around the base of
    all the stands...its safe, it would allow a cheaper section to stand
    in, and the clubs would probably get more money than putting seats in.
    
    As for costly season tickets, most clubs will probably have to issue
    the majority of seats to ticket (or bond) holders, once all seater
    stadiums are built.
    
    Or maybe, the Premier League will mean most people will watch three
    games from thier armchair on Saturdays, with the stadiums half empty?
    
    

    Peter Swales was on local radio this morning saying he thought United
    were wrong; visiting supporters add to the atmosphere; and a ban is not
    in the spirit of the game.
    
    He went on to say City would be rebuilding next year and the reduced
    capacity during building would mean an increase in the charges, 'but
    not as much as other clubs'; why does rebuilding equate to increased
    charges? Image Tesco's saying 'to use our new supermarket, we will
    double the price of all goods'.
    
    Swales said no matter what City's ground could hold, he would allow
    some visiting supporters in. This is the club, that peeved with United
    last year, didn't give United a big allocation for this year's derby.
    The attendance was about 35,000. United could have swelled that to
    40,000+ -- talk about cutting of your nose to spite your face....

    quite right Brian, but is there NO way that capacity can be increased
    in some way?
    Ian.
    

RE    .593
    
Well said Brian!!!
    Not missing a game at OT myself I for one would be upset if I can't get
    in to any game's next season.
    I have an LMTB so maybe if I can renew it I just maybe one of the lucky
    ones.
    
    Like you say it is only fair that United think of there own first
    although the price increase is well out of order.
    It's almost as if we're paying extra for extra hassle/discomfort while
    the rebuilding goes on.
    United are rolling in it at the mo as well!!!
    
	Si...
    
    Here's to a 3 - 0 victory against Villa on saturday.
    

    a sunken pitch?
    novel idea....
    Ian.
    

    United should take an even more aggressive step right now. Build a new
    stadium. I mean, the price increase, either way, is going to be
    permanent. How are they going to replace the lost revenue other than
    increae prices, or have more seats. 
    
    Look at some of the Spanish stadiums. United can seat 45000 bi-weekly,
    and a second major seated stadium of say 50000 in England is a must if
    ever you are to get a World Cup again. Even another Wembley type
    facility.
    
    This may be sacrilege - OT is mecca. But fact is, sports salaries
    around the world are screaming up. In Toronto, they just signed a
    baseball pitcher for 2 years at $10million - just to throw a ball at
    about 90-95 mph. Big TV contracts, and a full stadium pay for that.
    Every seat at every game is gone. If they had 60000 seats here they'd
    sell 'em, cos the entertainment value is there. Same with United. The
    Toronto Maple Leaf hockey club are supported like United, haven't won a
    Cup in 25 years, and play like the proverbial Donkey;s mentioned
    before. The hockey 'shrine' can only hold 18000, and about 22000 is the
    most you'd want for hockey, but they need a bigger rink, and will build
    one within about 5 years. They'll only be able to pay the players that
    way. 
    
    Soccer in Europe will grow to a Euro-league, like it or not, once a
    Federal system is really in place. United should take the plunge,
    get the ball rolling, and start looking for a site for 'New Trafford',
    unless the land around OT can be used. Lowering the pitch may cause
    severe frost problems, heated groud or not, and can effect the quality
    of the turf. 
    
    I say 'New trafford' now, and get on with it.
    
    my 2 cents.
    
    Paul

    
    Luton town are probably the most hated club in the first division
    primarily because of their ban on away fans.  While I don't condone
    their decision it was understandable at the time given how much that
    town suffered at the hands of visiting fans (Millwall in particular).
    Luton have since changed their policy.
    
    Travelling fans are as much a part of the game as home fans.  Many
    people travel to all their club's games.  They are going to lose out by
    this decision.  Dome clubs will follow Man United's example and the
    game itself will be the real loser.
    
    Travelling fans have just as much right to see their team at Old
    Trafford as the home fans.
    
    Gary.

    looks like conflicting opinions here from manc fans...
    why not have a vote?
    as an outsider, i think it would be a tragedy if clubs went 'home-only'
    after all, where would the atmosphere be?
    
    Ian.
    

    Ref: -2
    Old Trafford is to football what Fenway Park is to baseball. 
    In both cases I think the local governments should protect them 
    by declaring the facilities "historical monuments".
    
    BTW, where would a new facility be built? I bet it wouldn't be in the
    inner city. Probably somewhere in the suburbs, away from many of the
    fans that have supported the club all these years.
    
    JC
    
    

    
    Re .600, I am not a Man United fan.  I like football :-)
    
    
    Gary.

Chaps...

United have banned away fans for next season while re-building work is done
on the Stretford End. This is NOT a full away ban for ever. No doubt
when all work is completed then this decision will be reversed..

So the comparison with LUTON is unjustified...

Any club which can NOT get all its fans inside its ground on match days, will
no doubt do the same as United..Someone mentioned in a previous note that Leeds
were going to be rebuilding but they are not banning away fans..I'de like to see 
their fans reaction when they cant get in to see their team play at home, and
they allocate 2500 seats or whatever to away supporters that dont turn up..

One point that has not been made, is that policing at OT will certainly be a lot
cheaper with the ban on away fans.

Tony

	As someone who in one year watched his team play on the grounds
	of all their league opponents, but never on their own ground,
	I would like to say I find this denigration of away fans extremely
	offensive.

	Tony

    
    	On a lighter theme...
    
    	Now I have seen it all. In note 110.389 the lovely Martin Cunniffe
    	has actually predicted a WIN for M.Utd..Ok, he couldn't bring
    	himself to type Manchester United, or even Man. Utd, but there it
    	is, in glorious green and black!
    
    	There *is* a God ...
    
    	Andy.
    

    Brian,
    
    Leeds United could fill their ground with their own supporters, but
    they do offer some tickets to the away fans - it is only right. 2,500
    isn't many, but some teams don't bring that many - whwn they don't,
    Leeds use the top part of the away section to their own supporters. If
    Man U put a blanket ban on away support, then they should not complain
    if other clubs fill up their ground with their own fans - Leeds can and
    will do that, Luton won't.
    
    Visiting fans will always find a way in, joining many supporter's
    schemes in the process.
    
    jb.

    
    	Aston Villa visit OT this weekend on the back of a fairly dismal
    	run of results - something like 4 defeats in 5 - and will come
    	up against an in-form United absolutely brimming with confidence.
    
    	A tough crimble program sees United visiting Leeds then a less-
    	difficult-on-paper home game against an improving QPR side.
    
    	United must take seven points from these games..victory in the 
    	two home games and a point at Elland Road.
    
    	I think we will mangle Villa, possibly 3- or 4-1. Ron's team seem
    	to have lost their way recently after a good run, and the way
    	we're playing we could bury them. Let's hope so! 
    
    	The Leeds trip is likely to be a very uncomfortable one. Leeds are 
    	playing an impressive power-game at the moment, and the midfield 
    	tussle between Strachan and the excellent McAllister vs. Webb and 
    	Robson or Ince will be tremendous. This game could finish 3-3. 
    	Defeat is not disastrous but highly undesirable!
                  
    	The QPR game in the New Year will be a close one. QPR play a
    	passing game with quick skillful strikers - just the sort to give
    	our defence a thorough work-out! Their defence is less so, and if
    	we get a good start we could do well. However these games after
    	the holiday period don't always go to plan, so I'll settle for
    	a 1-0 win.
    
    	Happy Christmas to one and all. Hope you and yours have a peaceful
    	safe enjoyable time and good luck for the New Year. See you all in
    	'92.
    
    	Andy.
     

    When do Utd play their game-in-hand and who is it against ?
    
    	- Robin

    Later in the season ;-)
    
    Seriously, the Mancs will be able to arrange a date with whoever
    midweek, as they will have plenty of slots available after their Cup
    Exits at Elland Road !!
    
    Merry Xmas Mancs !!
    
    jb.

    Is the boxing day event at Oldham not on, or something? People seem to
    think United are only playing Villa & QPR. Oldham away will be tough,
    but of course, a win.

.611>    Is the boxing day event at Oldham not on, or something? People seem to
.611>    think United are only playing Villa & QPR. Oldham away will be tough,
.611>    but of course, a win.

	Maybe the Mancs are setting an example to other teams for next season,
	and pretending away games don't exist. After all, Oldham at home to
	Man Utd should only be of interest to home fans.

    Happy Christmas to ALL fans whether of the reds or not.
    
    Paul

    According to a piece on TV last night, once the repairs are complete
    the OT capacity will be increased to 52,000.
    
    BTW, the above according to World-Wide soccer, which I believe is the 
    subsidiary of the English F.A. that makes a fortune selling weekly
    hilite films around the world. And YES! Last night they showed us 
    Chelsea vs United.
    
    JC

    Leeds tie again - fading fast! Now two games in hand, and tied on
    points. United to beat them next week, and it could be all over bar a
    massive disaster. United have too many good players fighting for places
    to get into a slump. 
    
    Seen Liverpool vs. City on Saturday. All of a sudden 'pool are 4th, but
    they were a shadow of their former selves. I can see them lifting
    themselves up for United games, but they are just not playing good team
    football. The skills of many of their players are showing - ordinary.
    Usually in a Liverpool team, the team shines. Now it is just a bunch of
    players. Sourpuss to blame. United have little to worry about here. 
    
    Fergie was sitting at the game  - beside Ian Rush! I guess they were
    talking about what it is like to play for a real team! Rushie sure was
    cosy'ing up to Fergie as the camera showed!!!
    
    Paul

    
    	Well we're at Boundary Park, Oldham on Hangover Day in an
    	all-ticket local derby against the Latics. With the Villa game
    	getting canned due to OT being under about 3 feet of water I
    	expect the lads to go at this one for 90 minutes to get the 
    	vital three points, as there's no way I can see Leeds (Leeds Leeds)
    	slipping at home to a truely awful Southampton side and we need
    	to stay on top, games in hand or not.
    
    	The trilogy commences at Elland Road on Sunday, and as I said
    	before this will be a mighty contest. I'll still settle for 
    	avoiding defeat, but it'll be an exciting game whatever the result!
    
    	Then QPR at OT on New Year's day. We'll see how Liverpool get on
    	against them on Boxing Day - I think QPR could be the form team
    	over the Christmas programme and could spring a surprise - but we 
    	need to win even if it is only by the odd goal.
    
    	So I'll go for:		Oldham 1 - 2 United
    				Leeds  2 - 2 United
    				United 1 - 0 QPR
    
    	and that sees us leading the charge into '92.
    
    	Andy.