Conference bookie::movies

    
    
    
    and then what???
    
    Chris
    :)

>    and then what???
>    
	In the TV ad they ran during the Super Bowl, the penultimate image
    	was the White House going up in a HUGE fireball.
    
    	The TV ad was a GREAT teaser, up there among the best (like
    	Alien's "In space, no one can hear you scream.")

    
    and then what?
    
    one can find the entire story in the newsgroup,
    
    rec.arts.movies.current films
    
    look for independence day-complete cast list and spoilers
    
    
    
    
    

    I watched a trailer when I went to see Broken Arrow, Their
    was one scene of a wall of explosions advancing up a major
    city street as seen by a man looking down the street. It looked
    awsome. Cars in traffic were being thrown up in the air, it
    looked like the advance of destruction was so complete and 
    rapid that running away was hopeless, so the man just watched
    it come closer and closer up the street toward him..........
    
    

    web site up on April 5th.
    
    http://www.id4.com
    
    

    
                          Independence Day (1996)

                                 USA 1996

Produced by: 20th Century Fox Film (distributor)
Genre(s)/keyword(s): Action / Sci-Fi

Also Known As:
     ID4 (1996)

Directed by
     Roland Emmerich

Cast (in alphabetical order)
     Adam Baldwin
     Margaret Colin
     Harry Connick Jr. .... F-18 Fighter Pilot
     James Duval
     Harvey Fierstein
     Vivica Fox
     Jeff Goldblum .... David Levinson
     Judd Hirsch
     Robert Loggia
     Mary McDonnell .... Constance Levinson
     Matthew Perry
     Bill Pullman .... President Thomas Whitmore
     Randy Quaid
     Will Smith .... Steve Hill
     Brent Spiner .... Scientist

Written by
     Dean Devlin
     Roland Emmerich

Cinematography by
     Karl Walter Lindenlaub

Music by
     David Arnold

Costume Design by
     Joseph A. Porro

Film Editing by
     David Brenner

Produced by
     Dean Devlin
     Roland Emmerich (executive)
     Ute Emmerich (executive)
     William Fay (executive)

Other crew
     Babette Dickerson (apprentice editor)
     Quincy Gunderson (first assistant editor)
     Devon Miller (second assistant editor)
     Kelly Van Horn (upm)
     Dana Williams (prod coordinator)

Links with other movies

featured in
     Special Effects (1996)

    
    the QT trailor for this movie can be downloaded at the ID4 web
    site. just click where it states "commence........"
    
                                                          

    
    last night on ET they showed qiute a few scenes from the film.
    looks very, very good.
    
    my wife was actually a bit stunned when the White House gets 
    blown to pieces.
    
    On April 18th there is going to be a real big dedication of 
    the ...Extraterrestrial Highway in Nevada. Gov of Nevada 
    will dedicate it, and something about a huge caravan filled
    with stars from this movie.
    
    
    

    the trailer for "Independence Day" looks awesome

    
    
    Yeah! I saw the new trailer in Canada and it is totally action packed.
    ( Showing fighter jets dogfighting with the Aliens )!!! 
    
    Can't wait!!
    
    Chris
    :)

    
    They've just started showing the trailer in the UK.  Wow.
    
    
    I.

    
    9th August in the UK
    
    I think it's a simultaneous release.
    
    
    
    I.

    
    
    the release date in the states and canada is July 3rd ( just prior to
    US Independence day )
    
    Chris
    :)

    
    That'll induce a bit of paranoia.

    
    Saw the previews for this one before Twister the other night....
    Looks Awesome with the Empire State Building Getting blown up.
    Gotta be the most anticipated picture of the summer.
    
    
    CF

    
    how interesting. 
    Dean Devlin is responding to questions regarding this movie
    in the following newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.movies
    
    He is the co-writer and producer of the film.
    
    

    
    	You mean like "Were Bill and Hillary in the White House when
    	it was blown to smithereens?"?
    
    	8^)
    

    
    Fox will allow theaters to start showing this movie at
    6pm, July 2nd. Running time is 2 hours, 20 minutes.
    
    Special screening at selected theaters.
    
    Todays L.A Times was wrapped in a full page ad for this flick.
    
    
    

    
    I saw the second trailer for this movie last night.  Wow.
    
    
    I.

    
    Sci-fi channel is doing a special on this film Friday 6/28 at
    7pm / 11pm eastern time. Also  Sat. and Sun.
    
    Fox Tv has their own on Sunday night.
    
    

> Special screening at selected theaters.

	There could also be a special screening this Sat. at the White
	House.  I've heard on CNN HN that the White House finally saw
	one of the trailers showing the White House getting blown up
	and extended a last minute invitation to the films producers/director
	to screen the film at the White House this Sat.

	This was a couple of days ago I heard this, and haven't heard anything
	since.  Also interesting tidbit, the news report commented (at the
	time of the report) that there was only one print in existence for
	this film.

    
    -1 yep read the same thing today on the web somewhere. Both the
    producer and director are going to the White House with supposedly
    the only copy.
    
    Last night they had a premier showing in Westwood, Calif near
    UCLA. Lot of people line up, with special tickets and the stars
    of the film were said to be arriving. 
    
    Not much news yet on how they liked it.
    
    I'd rather wait and see it over the holiday......if seats are
    available.
    
    

FWIW, this film opens at the Milford Drive-In on Tuesday, July 2nd
(replacing "The Rock", can you believe they are replacing The Rock,
and not "The Hunchback of Notre Dame"!?)

It will be on Screen I, with co-feature "The Truth About Cats and Dogs".
It also says both films are rated PG-13.  I was hoping for an R rating
on "Independence Day" :-(( :-)

    
    they really advertised it a lot over this weekend.
    just about every regular channel had the ad, there were "specials"
    with Goldbloom, and MTV even had a special. Ads in every paper.
    
    it must have set a record just for  the advertising.
    
    
                               
    

    I was in Toys R Us yesterday looking at the swimming pools and the
    huge display for Independence Day caught my attention and pulled me
    over.  The plastic character figures from the movie gave some of the
    surprise away for me - but what really startled me was this:  after
    looking at the display and walking away, some of the toy figures
    suddenly came to life and started moving and making noise!  For a
    moment I thought that I might have imagined it but then I (carefully)
    approached the display summoning up all my courage and noticed that the
    figures have motion sensors that trigger their animation. 

    L.A Times had a big review this morning. Stated it was a fun movie
    to watch. Played out like a 50's Sci-Fi flick. Noted that the best
    parts are the huge invasions, battles and F/X of course. And 
    the over 2 hours time goes very fast. The characters are more
    or less stereotypes and a bit cartoonish. 
    
    But what the heck.
    
    Title of the review was "The Day The Script Stood Still"
    
    Starts tonight at many theaters.
    
    
    
    
    
    

         
         So is ID out over there ? !! Here in Germany it will be
         out on September 19'th.
         
         If it's out can someone tell me how good it is ?!
         
         

    
    
    It starts in the UK  on aug 9th.
    It started in the states and Canada last night.
    
    Chris
    :)

    Has anyone seen it yet?  
    
    How is it?  Please tell.
    
    h.d.

    
    I TRIED to go see this last night. The 7:00 and 10:10 shows in Franklin
    MA were both sold out at 6:15 last night. So I went to the Framingham
    Super Cinema and the only shows that had tix left were @ 10:30 & 11:30.
    So I didn't get to go.
    
    I though that I'd have to get there early to get a seat because there's
    about a million people going last night but I was wrong, it was more
    like 10 million!!!
    
    Any idea how much cake this flick raked in last night, I'm guessing
    it's the most ever for one night.
    
    
    CF

    I went into to see it last night and out of the 8 people I went
    with it 7 hated it. I liked it, thought it was good but it depends
    on your expectations.  If you're going to see a sci-fi flick don't
    bother. It's not, it has something for everyone and the action
    in the films affects everyone in a particular way.  The commercials
    tell the whole story.  They arrive, they attack, we strike back.
    The first two seem realistic of what may happen but the third area,
    well you'd have to suspend reality but for the sake of the movie it's
    not too much of a problem.
    
    So far the reviews are mixed....like I said depending on what you're
    looking for, that should make your decision on whether to go pay the
    7.25 or wait for video to see it.  Frankly, it is something that should
    be seen on the big screen.
    
    the decision is yours!
    
    anna
    

    VERY enjoyable movie!  I couldn't believe it when I read it ran 2h20m! 
    
    I saw it at the Milford, NH drive-in last night.  We showed up early
    (7:00) and were greated by a line of cars all the way down the entrance
    and onto the main road.
    
    Many humorous scenes and phenomenal special effects.  The jet fighter
    dogfights with the alien crafts were great.
    
    I'm considering seeing it again in a THX theatre to get the full
    impact!!  8^)
    
    Jason
    
    Technical gripes (spoilers):
    
    
      
    At the end when the 15 or so ~25 trillion ton alien crafts fall to the
    earth, there isn't severe damage AND the earth doesn't slow it's
    rotation, diminishing gravity.
    
    The aliens, capable of planet sized space crafts, interstellar travel
    and shields needed to use the earth's satellite system to communicate
    from one side of the earth to the other.
    
    

    
    
    looks like I'll have to get up early tomorrow on the 4th to buy
    tickets for the afternoon show.
    
    no way would I wait for the video on this type of movie.
    
    

    
    
    Heard a couple of DJ's from Kiss 108 give their reviews this morning.
    
    Basically they all agreed.....not worth the hype.  They said that the
    special effects were nothing that hadn't been done in other movies. 
    That the space crafts just didn't look "real" like they did in Star
    Wars.  They compared special effects to those in the Alien movies and
    they said the Alien movies had better effects.
    
    Basically they said it wasn't what they thought it would be and they
    were really disappointed.  
    
    I'll still see this on the big screen but maybe not stand in line for
    half an hour to get tickets.  I'll wait a bit.
    
    FWIW

    
    Clinton and Hillary viewed it in their 52 seat, custom padded
    seat theater. All the cast was present, along with the director etc.
    
    The Prez was seated in the first row, with his wife. He yelled to
    Bill Pullman (whos plays the Prez in the film) to come on down
    and sit with him.
    
    Pullman said he felt like he was in third grade again, and the
    teacher wanted him at the front of the class. It was an honor
    but he was very, very nervous.
    
    Clinton enjoyed the film, and told Pullman he did a fantastic
    job.
    
    
    

    
    It made $11 million on the first night, a Tuesday night, a couch
    potato night.
    
    
    

    
    A lot of story ideas from other movies. However, it's a movie you can
    take your kids to see. Well worth the matinee $4.50 price.

    Unfortunately, movies these days are always *so* hyped up, it is almost
    impossible _not_ to be disappointed in them.  Sometimes you can *over*
    advertise.
    
    
    E Grace

    A lotta fun, I thought.  Actually more than a lotta, and quite frankly,
    I haven't seen as "fun" of a movie since, oh, the Star Wars era.  I've
    seen plenty of good movies and fun movies, but not fun like Star Wars
    fun.
    
    It's definitely got some "yeah, right" moments.  The story (we get
    invaded, we fight back) isn't exactly original or literary.  There are
    plenty of cliches.  And the special effects, while nice, didn't blow my
    socks off, but then again, I'm jaded to that sort of thing.
    
    But-- still fun if things blowing up and alien invasions are you sort
    of thing.  
    
    *** out of **** 
    
    kim

    
    Yup, I agree. Seen the movie this afternoon. Aside from the usual
    cliches, nicely done. The effects seems second rate at times,
    especially when the backdrop was against white. You can tell that it
    was computer imagery or bluescreen. The mother ship was really funkie
    tho.
    
    spoiler/question:
    
    
    I noticed that the fighter jets used by 'the good guys' were a
    combination of F-16s and F-20s. But when the camera first panned down
    from an overhead view just before the first counter-attack, it appeared
    that the jets were all F-14 Tomcats. 
    My question is, were they F-14s? If they were, does the producers know
    that the Marines uses F-15s and the Navy uses the F-14.
    
    The one good thing is that it stayed sort of true to life, in that
    quite a few of the 'main' characters were killed off. 
    The destruction scenes were terrific. The dog fighting scenes were well
    done. The destruction of the aliens ship over the cities wasn't all
    that impressive.
    
    Overall:  ***1/2 out of *****
    
    Dave  
    

    
    saw this movie on the 4th, thought it was awesome. it lived up to its
    hype. its setting box office records already. see and hear it in a 
    THX theatre. an all-star cast, great FX and terrific sound make it one
    of the most enjoyable summer films to come along in a while. cant wait 
    for the sequel.

    DITTO!  
    
    	I saw this one with Davey and the boys and thought it was
    definately worth seeing (especially on big screen)!  Yes there were
    some real "cheesey" parts and some unbelievable parts (if you overlook
    the fact that it was an "alien" invasion) but it was fast paced, funny
    and sometime I caught myself grinding my teeth or clenching my fists!
    
    	Acting  -  7
        F/X     -  9
        Story   -  7
        Action  -  9
    
    I'd have to say a 7 overall though due to the "fromage"!

    re  .a few back  (re: planes)
    
    
    I thought the "good guy" jets were a combo of F-14 and F-18's (not
    F-20's, which, I think, are modernized F-5s used for "cheapie" foreign
    sales -- isn't the F-20 the "Tigershark"?).  And *maybe* there was a
    spattering of F-16's in there, it was a little hard to tell at times.
    
    I'm almost 100% sure most of the heroes flew F-18's, though.
    
    kim
    

    
    
    
    the planes in the preview that I saw were definitely F-18's
    
    Chris
    :)

    I really enjoyed it.  Action was about what I expected, same for the
    special effects.  What really pleased me was the script.  It kept a
    humorous, witty undertone that played well against the desdtruction of
    the planet main theme.  And there were several minor characters whose
    parts were more than window dressing, especially Judd Hirsch and Vivica
    Fox.  The only minor character who didn't live up to expectations was
    (surprisingly) Brent Spiner.
    
    Will Smith BTW was sensational in the starring role.  Jeff Goldblum was
    his usual excellent self, but I wasn't sure if Smith could pull it off,
    and he did.
    
    NAZZ

    
    
    absolutely excellant movie!	Will Smith/Judd Hirsch were excellant as were 
    the effects.
    
    I plan on seeing it again.
    
    ian

> It made $11 million on the first night, a Tuesday night, a couch
> potato night.

	CNN HN reported this as a record for the weekday non-holiday opening
	day surpassing the previous record set by Die Hard 2.

	They did indicate that that $11M can't be used in the computation of
	the "holiday weekend" gross, however the predictions are that this
	film will of grossed $100M by the end of this weekend ....

	I'll won't be greedy, just give me 1/10th of 1% of this films total
	gross :-)

    
    re: .45 and .46
    
    The planes seemed to be F14's cuz they had the 'swing wing'.
    F-18's do not.
    
    Granted, there were many differant planes during the attacks, but the
    ones seen near the beginning were F-14's. The Marines don't use them.
    
    Dave
    

    
    
    Excellent summertime fun!  Take the family and see it on a big screen. 
    Will Smith lives up to just what I expected from him -- talent! 
    Goldblum is excellent (as noted many times previously) and Hirsch is
    something to be seen to be believed.  Randy Quaid also does a good job
    with what I thought a rotten part.
    
    Not quite "Star Wars" caliber, but better than last year's "Stargate"
    and very much worth seeing.
    
    *** outta ****
    
    (Spoiler stuff)
    
    
    This movie requires more suspension of disbelief than usual.  The idea
    that you can interface a Mac notebook with an alien mainframe is
    laughable.  The damage caused by the falling spacecraft seemed too
    minimal.  And when Pullman's Prez character kept saying that "a lot of
    people died" I wanted to slap him silly.  I mean, the ugly dudes wiped
    out New York, Los Angeles, Calcutta, Rome, Tokyo, Hong Kong, etc.  That
    had to total upwards of a half-billion people!  Way too underplayed.
    
    BTW, folks, the planes were MODELS!!!  You aren't gonna get exact F-18
    replicas in this kind of a flick!  
    
    

    
    
    a model of an F-18 is still alot different than a model of
    an F-14.
    
    Plastic or real, they still look different.
    
    I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know that there are or are not
    F-14's . I just saw F-18's in the preview adds that I did see.
    
    Chris
    :)

    
    >Heard a couple of DJ's from Kiss 108 give their reviews this morning.
    
     The day I start listening to a couple of disc jockeys' opinions about
    movies will be just after the doctors remove the head bandage from my
    lobotomy.

Re. all the talk about F-pick_a_number planes. Who cares what sort of planes
they were ? What counts is was it a good film or not ?

Simes.

    
    Well, I can't say I was overly impressed with this. 
     
    Very derivative - Star Wars and Alien rip-offs abound.  Except for Golblum, 
    the casting gave it a made-for-TV-miniseries feel (that I felt it lived up 
    to in writing and acting).  The silly stupid coincidences (like how people
    found one another) in the movie were too much for me, too.
    
    Special effect were good, but so what nowadays?  The technology to do
    well in this area is now a commodity, so the "ooh-ahh" potential of
    that sort of peaked with Jurassic Park - we can do anything in the computer
    age, except have them write a good script, apparantly.
    
    Overall, they treated the story too lightly.  Because of that I did
    not well up with emotion when the world attacked back.  I felt more
    adrenalin waiting for Arny to nail the Predator than I did for Earth
    to get these aliens.
    
    A lot of missed potential - Pullman was *almost* great as the Prez,
    Randy Quaid was *almost* a classic part, and Judd Hirsch was great,
    but in the end, wasted...
    
    Oh well, guess I'll hope for better with Tim Burton's "Mars Attacks"
    this Christmas.
    
    - Sean

    
    
    re -2
    
    
    I'm sorry but you just can't have a good space invader's movie without
    at least one F-14 or F-18!!!
    
    Chris
    :)))0

	FWIW, Siskel & Ebert both gave a thumbs down.  Equated this movie
	to a "B" style invaders flick from the 50's.

	Until the next blockbuster is released however, given the marketing
	this one will probably continue to rule the box office ....

    
    	RE: .55
    
    	Actually, I preferred the FX in "Terminator 2" to "Jurassic
    	Park".
    

    
    I tried to see it twice at Framigham 14 (it was on 3 screens) and both
    times it was sold out.  I got their an 1hr early too.
    
    lkp

    
    ew 57
    
    S&E...they would rather watch 4 actors sitting around a table
    talking for 2 hours.
    
    I couldn't help but laugh, cause right after their boring show.
    The news announced Id4 was nearing the $100 mil mark.
    
    I saw it, and enjoyed it all.
    
    Dave

    
    I think I heard it finished the weekend at $83 million?  I saw it at
    the Framingham 14 THX theater at 11:30 Thursday night.  Although the
    story had some "yeah, right" parts the movie was good. I loved the
    action & effects and the sound was top-notch.  It's no "Star Wars" but
    then again, what is???
    
    CF

    I think I will wait a few weeks to see this one. I heard there were
    people camping out.
    -ss

    I believe it was Good Morning America that said it made 
    
    			95 MILLION DOLLARS!!!!
    
    WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    	I saw ID4 on July 3rd.  The movie was alright.  Special Effects
    great and thats about it.  Besides Judd Hirsch's role.  It seems that 
    the majority out there wants special effects without a good script.
    Why can't we have both.  This movie could have had a good script.  So
    LONE STAR will go unheard just about and ID4 will be seen and watched
    everywhere.  Just my .02 in .  I'm tired of a good fx film without a
    good script.  That's why the Star Wars Trilogy did okay as well as the
    Raidiers Trilogy.
    
    						

    So I'm watching ID with my wife and I'm shaking my head and she says
    "What's wrong?"
    
    I then proceeded to explain to her that Jeff Goldblum in NO WAY could
    do what he was doing at the end....not to mention Will Smith's
    navigation expertise.
    
    A couple of other questions:
    
            - Remember how Smith welcomed his alien friend? C'mon!
            - Also, how did Smith put his "prize" into his parachute? Is
              he that strong?
            - That little girl recovered quickly from her "loss" didn't
              she?
            - Jasmine's another lucky one...how'd she escape?
            - Halfway through this movie everyone will guess the ending.
            - Was it just me or did the producers/directors drop the ball
              regarding the international flavor of the movie? Remember the
              scenes at the end? Pretty cheesy.
            - And last but not least...you mean to tell me that the
              President and his Chief of Staff DIDN'T know about....
    
    SOme good points:
    
            - Special effects were very good.
            - Good performances by GOldblum, Hirsch, and Smith.
            - Movie gets going real fast.
            
    If you haven't seen it please do....then tell me if you agree with me.
    
    MJS

    
    
    -1
    
    I don't think anybody cared about the nits. At least not in the
    theater where I saw it. 
    
    Very loud applause and cheering at the end.
    
    Usher told me it's been that way from the first show.
    
    Yep, a real cornball 50's sci-fi, bit of Alien and a lot
    of 70's disastor stuff.
    
    
    Already read that ID4:Part 2 is a sure thing.
    
    Dave
    
    
    
    

    
    So what's the moral here?  Are we, the movie-going public, so hard-up
    for a good-time sci-fi flick that we stand and cheer (yes, I did, at
    least in spirit) even though the script has such glaring weaknesses?
    
    Has it really been that long since "Return of the Jedi"?
    
    You bet yer sweet light-sabre it has...
    
    Georgie-boy, I hope you're paying attention!
    
    Rick

What's with this waiting in lines stuff. We arrived at 3:00 for a
3:00 showing on July 6, paid matinee price of $4.50, and got good
seats. Dolby sound too. 

It's a perfect stupid summer movie. Of course the script is absurd.
Puny earthlings must rely on their greatest weapon to overcome such 
technological superiority--their ability to sneak through giant 
holes in the plot!

If the script were logical, earthlings would have been toast in the
first ten minutes, end of story. What kind of movie would that be.

Enjoy the air conditioning and the cartoon-style fun.

Neil

    The last reply hit it exactly on target.  Of course Goldblum couldn't
    do what he supposedly did at the end of the movie.  Of course Smith
    wouldn't have been able to do what he did either.  But when I critique
    a script for a movie like this, I'm willing to overlook such obvious
    gaffs, since the writers and producers obviously did as well.  What I
    care about is wit, humor, and the ability of a movie not to take itself
    too seriously, which is the downfall of many sci-fi efforts.  ID4 had
    just the right tone, pushed the right buttons, and had the kind of
    action that a summer movie must have.
    
    NAZZ

    ..this was a really fun escape film to see and I, along with many other
    people in the theater enjoyed it thoroughly.....some of you who've
    entered  the more acerbic responses to this movie really need to run
    out and get yourselves a high calonic ...it's *entertainment* ..not 
    a lesson in logic......geez.......some of these responses are right up
    there, for absurd value, with a comment we heard on the way out of the
    movie theatre after seeing this flick...one friend turned to another
    and asked how he liked the film...and the friend said 'well, it was ok
    but it so SO Hollywood!'......ahahaahhhhahha!...as if it would have been
    a better film had it been made by a small independent french film
    group....of COURSE it was hollywood.....this isn't to say that it was
    perfect film , but if you go to all movies expecting that each moment
    of film be perfectly logical, then you will most assuredly be
    dissapointed and often........this film was *alot* of fun..i've said it
    before and I'll say it again...some times you just have to let art and
    entertainment flow over you and quick being so anal retentive....my .02
    ...go see it on a big screen and applaud in all the right parts!.../k
                                                        

    
    	As long as we're bringing up questins about the movie, I have one.
    How could a ship the size of the alien ship "fly" treetop high above
    the earth? 
    
    ej
    

    How the crap should we know?  [^;=
    
    Why not ask " If something on the spaceship broke on the way to Earth, 
    like the "trans-speedometer-felixio-spurtan-alixholator", where would
    they order the parts from?"  
    
    My guess would be an Audi dealership!  (smile I'm just kidding!)

    
    >                                                  But when I critique
    > a script for a movie like this, I'm willing to overlook such obvious
    > gaffs, since the writers and producers obviously did as well.  
    
      Don't chalk up to purpose what you can attribute to laziness.
    
      I am willing to overlook gaffes in a movie like "Tremors" where the
      tone of comedy and comic-book nonchalance permeates the entire
      script.  Yes, I'll leave my brain at the door for that and have
      a great time doing it.
      
      I won't do it in movie that mixes the schlock in with gung-ho speeches by
      fighter-piloting Presidents and syrupy serious love and death scenes.
      VERY few movies succeed at pulling off a combination of seriousness
      and comedy like that, but many movies make a lackluster attempt at 
      doing it - as I think this one did.
    
      Even Star Wars didn't have you yelling "Give me a break" at the
      screen every two minutes.  Its compelling script and breathtaking
      action left you no time to think about the reality of it all.  ID4
      wasn't good enough to keep your brain from having time to critique 
      it.
    
    > care about is wit, humor, and the ability of a movie not to take itself
    > too seriously, which is the downfall of many sci-fi efforts.  ID4 had
    > just the right tone, pushed the right buttons, and had the kind of
    > action that a summer movie must have.
    
      I have to disagree - we're all just accepting less.
    
    - Sean
    

>     Even Star Wars didn't have you yelling "Give me a break" at the
>     screen every two minutes.  Its compelling script and breathtaking
>     action left you no time to think about the reality of it all.  

I remember groaning during Star Wars that for all the fancy technology
the fighter ships didn't have a simple "missile lock" for firing their
weapons and instead relied on the pilot's visual aim and trigger
reflexes (!). So they could have more exciting, World-War I style
dogfights, instead of using less interesting but more likely 
lock-and-obliterate technology.                                  

And those ridiculous plastic troops with their dinky laser rifles couldn't
hit the broad side of a barn from ten paces either.

The technology is just eye-candy in these flicks. If it were treated
consistently there would be no story other than that one day aliens 
showed up and killed everybody on the planet in five seconds.
    

All the hype for this one !!

- The premise, the plot, the conclusion and the script were just average.

- The special effects weren't that mind boggling or earth-shattering. I think
  we have seen more realistic blowing of bridges and buildings in the 70s and
  80s. The laser-like weapons streaking across, blowing people and concrete
  have been used too much - even in TV. These weapons look more kiddish than
  realistic.

- There is no one scene which had the chilling effect when the dino (tall one) 
  first appeared on the screen in JP.

	I would be surprised and tad dissapointed if this gets real biiig as
as predicted.

/Jk

I saw this on Independence Day (apropos :-) ) in a small theater in 
western Mass.  We went to a matinee because the weather was lousy.
The theater (the Mahaiwe in Great Barrington, for those who care :-) )
was the most crowded I've ever seen it, though I don't think the show
was sold out.

I went into the movie with fairly low expectations; I wasn't all that
enthused about seeing a movie where every big city on Earth gets blasted
to smithereens - I thought it would be kind of a "gloom and doom" flick.
Well, I was pleasantly surprised!  I enjoyed it way more than I thought I
would, no doubt because of my low expectations :-) (and also because there 
was a lot more humor in it than I expected).  Yeah, there were lots of
"give me a break" moments, but I'm basically with .67 and .68 on this one.

There were a number of references to other movies, too, which were amusing.
(The only one I can recall offhand is when Jeff Goldblum's computer displayed
"GOOD MORNING, DAVE" :-).  But I know there were more.)

I'd like to see it again in a THX theater...

-- Nina

  Yeah, this was a real thinking person's thriller.

  NOT!

  Sorry, but I have to agree, I don't think a script with a little bit of
  intelligence or thought loaned to it is asking the writers for too much.

  Even though I entered the cinema with boosted higher-than-normal tolerance
  fully prepared to see an unrealistic fantasy movie inappropriately dressed as
  science fiction, I still had a tremendously hard time trying to keep alive
  the suspension of my mounting disbelief.  And as such had a hard time making
  it to the end of the movie still 'with' the cast.  In order to keep this film
  feeling "fun", you have to try very hard to keep your brain, which wakes up
  constantly with "Oh c'mon"'s, from engaging more fully.  It was one of those
  films where you count how many implausible and silly events happen per minute
  rather than per the entire film.  There were so many unbelievably large holes
  in this movie that I won't waste my time choosing some.  The holes were so
  blatant that I recall wondering what fourteen year old boy doing his first
  daydream writing while watching late night 50's sci-fi/horror films did they
  get to write this crude, immature, not-yet-finished script?

  Several critics have said you need an IQ of 70 or lower in order to really
  enjoy this film.  While I thought that was flip at first, I'm not so sure
  now.  I can cut any movie a lot of slack, "it's a movie about aliens for
  cry'in out loud," but when it doesn't even follow its own rules, I begin to
  lose respect for its integrity and quality.  This was not a well or even much
  thought out effort.  As more and more time goes by, the lower and lower my
  opinion of this movie drops.  I'd rate this WELL below _Mission Impossible_
  (which in comparison is now feeling like a thinking person's thriller with a
  little intelligence applied to it compared to the other movies this summer)
  and somewhere sharing the bottom shelf along with _Twister_ in the mediocrity
  of this summer's movies scale.  "Just barely OK, work to sit through" would
  be my short review capsule.  This feeling is sliding, and will probably be
  lower than this given another few days.

  ID4 wasn't as much of a fast-paced run-away train as I expected from the
  reviews either, it had many slow moments as compared to any of the other
  summer movies.  This included some incredibly and annoyingly unrealistic
  romance scenes thrown in (finding people just so they can die two seconds
  later for mock emotional scenes, which didn't work, in fact many in the
  audience instead laughed at them for how poorly they came across).  These
  scenes really bothered me from their "coincidence taken to extreme" elements.
  Basic laws of physics were not enforced that independence day it was evident
  too, which also annoyed me.  These things even bothered the friends I saw it
  with, whom have a much higher tolerance for unrealistic pure fantasy movies
  masquerading as SF than I do.

  The story and acting and FX and general all-around quality had a made-for-TV
  air about it which I couldn't quite put my finger on.  It reminded me a lot
  of a bad "X-Files" episode during its weakest year.  The only FX I really
  liked were the cars flying into the air in a wave as a blast force moved
  along.  But even those, seen over and over again, lost much of their impact.
  If you do see it in a cinema, hunting for a SDDS or THX sound equipped
  theatre is worthwhile, the film does make decent use of it in places.

  People raved about Will Smith's acting performance here, however I thought it
  was just a standard OK performance, nothing to write home about.  I wondered
  if these people ever saw Will Smith in his _Six Degrees_ performance, which
  unlike ID4 truly was quite good and surprising.  Other reviewers knocked Bill
  Pullman's performance as the President, whereas I thought his role was one of
  the better acted ones in the movie (even if somewhat unreleastic).  Brent
  Spinner's performance was good and uniquely interesting to me.  His voice was
  yet-another derivative of a cross between "Data" and "Lore," but it worked
  (as evidenced by the fact that the other friends with us, frequent ST:TNG
  viewers, did not recognize him as the actor who plays Data).  His "mad
  scientist" role was not a particularly good one, but I enjoyed watching to
  see how he played it.  Harvey Fierstien played a completely pathetic role, so
  poorly acted it was painful to watch, so badly done (like the romance scenes)
  that it was laughable instead of dramatic.

  My SF juices were made to flow more from the trailer of the upcoming Star
  Trek movie _First Contact_ than in the entire ID4 experience (which was so
  bad in that regard it could have been a SF parody, the problem is that it
  wasn't, it took itself seriously), but as a don't-think-about-the-holes-
  too-much fantasy, it was OK.  Another hit for the _Stargate_ crowd perhaps,
  but certainly nothing to have waited the summer for though.

  -Erik

    I'm so sick and tired of the pompous pseudo-intellectuals who
    constantly disparage anything that isn't written by literary masters.
    
    MOVIES DO NOT HAVE TO BE INTELLECTUALLY STIMULATING!!!!
    
    It *IS* too much to ask for every writer of every film to write on a
    Master of Liberal Arts level.  Face it, half the country's population has
    an IQ below average.  It is, and should always be, quite acceptable for
    movies and other forms of entertainment to be written on a level they
    can understand and fully appreciate.  Escapism is a legitimate genre.
    
    Sometimes, art is just fun.
    
    
    

    re-1
    
    >>Face it, half the country's population has
    >>    an IQ below average. 
    
    Thanks, this made me laugh out loud and brightened up my morning! 
    
    cheers
    
    mikef

  It's probably the most accurate statement I've seen in a real long time.

  George

    
    	Well, it's not necessarily so.
    
    	For example:
    
    	The average IQ is 80.
    
    	There are 10 people with an IQ of 120, and 20 people with an
    	IQ of 60.
    

    
    
    Thank you, thank you!  Movies are Entertainment...plain and simple!
    
    If you're looking for intellectual stimulation, read a book!

    There is no reason why movies can't be both?  Sometimes even at the
    same time!  
    
    m

re:
 >Face it, half the country's population has
 >an IQ below average.  
                ^
                |
                +-- "median"

Lifestyle (Headline)                                                    Page 1

Blueprints For Blockbusters: Let's go, C'mon!

July 12, 1996, 8:23 AM EDT

By Timothy M. Gray

HOLLYWOOD (Variety) - We've seen the summer's big action films and have noticed 
dare we say it? -- a certain formula. As a service for all you producers and
screenwriters who are trying to concoct something surefire for next summer, we
h compiled every element you'll need.

All of the following are taken from at least one of the summer's blockbusters:
``Eraser,'' ``Independence Day,'' ``Mission: Impossible,'' ``The Rock'' and
``Twister.'' (Not surprisingly, many elements were used in more than one film.)
For those of you who haven't seen these movies, don't worry, we're not giving
anything away. Even if you haven't seen these movies, believe me, you've seen
th before.

ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL SCENES

A car exploding

A helicopter exploding

The hero and the love interest run toward the camera and hit the ground as a
building explodes five feet behind them.

Digital printouts at the bottom of the screen, indicating day and location of th
next scene (accompanied by the sound of teletype machine)

The hero drives the wrong way into oncoming traffic, then crashes through gates 
any gates.

When his colleague is shot, the hero, in slo-mo closeup, shouts: ``Nooooooo!''
TIMELESS SCENES THAT ARE STILL BEING USED

A dozen faceless villains fire on the hero, though none of their bullets hit him
hero then turns and kills them all.

The villain captures the heroes, then leaves them unguarded, allowing them to
cleverly escape.

Faced with a seemingly insoluble situation, a supporting character makes an
innocent remark. The hero rises slowly, says, ``What did you just say?'' and beg
to execute his brilliant solution.
FUN WITH MINORITIES

Italians: Whether lovable or dangerous, they must all be dumb goombahs with mob
connections.

Women: either wives, fiancees or girlfriends (if any of them is pregnant or a
stripper, even better).

Jews: preferably old, with prayer shawls, yarmulkes and rising inflections. Samp
line: ``Nobody's poifect.''
Gays: swishy and/or hysterical, used for comic relief. Sample line: ``Eeeeeekkkk

Blacks, Hispanics, Asian-Americans: They can fulfill your quota needs by playing



            The PointCast Network_



 Lifestyle (Headline)                                                    Page 2
sincere technicians with one line each. Sample line: ``Sir, I'm getting a readin

ESSENTIAL COMPUTER SCENES

The hero sits at a computer, punches in info and his eyes widen when he gets a r
he wasn't expecting.

The computer flashes ``ACCESS DENIED,'' accompanied by loud beep-beep-beep (in
action films, unlike life, every computer function is accompanied by R2D2-style
musical accompaniment).
DIALOGUE

Dialogue must be distinctive and original. For example, here are the most memora
lines from these memorable films.

``Twister'': ``We gotta get outta here!'' ``C'mon, c'mon!'' ``Let's go, c'mon!''
``Hurry, hurry!'' ``Run!'' and ``Get every aluminum can you can find!''

``The Rock'': ``Drop your weapons! Drop 'em!'' ``Open fire!'' ``Cease fire!''
``They're onto us!'' ``Move!'' and ``Omigod!''

``Eraser'': ``Drop the guns! Do it now!'' ``Go, go!'' ``Go, go, go!'' ``Stay dow
``Just calm down!'' and ``I want his face on this windshield!''
``Mission: Impossible'': ``They're dead! They're all dead!'' ``Who sent you? WHO
SENT YOU?'' ``Why, Jim, why?'' ``A doctor's gotta look at that.'' ``Jim was my
husband. I want to get the sonuvabitch who did this!'' and, significantly, ``Thi
the Mount Everest of hacks.''

``Independence Day'': ``It's important for everyone not to panic!'' ``Let's go,
c'mon, c'mon!'' ``Don't argue with me, just go!'' ``Omigod, omigod, omigod!''
``Atlanta, Chicago and Philadelphia -- destroyed!'' ``Tiffany, I've got a really
bad feeling about this.'' ``Hold it, hold it: I'm getting something on radar!'' 
significantly, ``God help us all.''

CINEMATIC TRIBUTES

Feel free to borrow plots, scenes and relationships from past movies -- ``Topkap
``Die Hard,'' any James Bond movie, etc. -- assuming the audience won't remember
original. However, if anyone notices, explain that your borrowings are not a rip
but an homage.
THE ACID TEST

Finally, reread your script and ask questions of logic:

If a man has been in prison for the last 30 years, would he be adept at talking 
phone while driving a Humvee?

Why is it that when the heroes get within five feet of a tornado, they only have
dodge debris, but when the villains get within five feet of a tornado, they get 
up?
Is it difficult to fly a helicopter in the Chunnel? And is it hard for a man to 
from a high-speed moving train onto a helicopter and then back again?

If the hero falls onto a car with enough force to dent its roof and shatter its
windows, wouldn't he have a slight limp when he gets up and walks away?

When aliens are shaped like giant jellyfish, why are their spaceships equipped w
bucket seats and seatbelts? If aliens communicate via telepathy, how come nobody



            The PointCast Network_



 Lifestyle (Headline)                                                    Page 3
the alien realm notices two earthlings smoking cigars? Could a stripper carrying
large child outrun a fireball? Are earth's laptops all compatible with computer

systems from other galaxies?
If you come to the conclusion that these are silly questions, that logic doesn't
matter, and that the audience will buy anything, then you are ready to start fil

Reuters/Variety 

c Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
              The PointCast Network_

    

    
    Perfect for ID4! Thanks for entering that - hysterical! :-)

    -Erik

          I did not get a chance to read all the notes that were posted but
          I saw the movie and I thought it was great. Would go see it again.
          Saw an interview with the two writers/producers and they made it 
          to be a tribute to all the great SF movies that they saw in the 50's
          60's, 70's & 80's.
          They took elements from all, so they say. My favorite are the first
          two Alien movies, third was too dark for me but alright.
          You can't beat Star Wars either but it can be ripped apart for
          nits very easily. 

          But when I go to the movies and spend over twenty bucks I want 
          to see things blow up, I want to see lots and lots of action. 
          Sorry, I don't want to see sub-titles, Disney movies 
          (no offense, only on video), or sorry to say since I am one, 
          "chick movies" as some friends of mine call them 8^).  
          Save it for TV or the Lifetime channel (I do watch those).

          BTW: I do have an IQ over the average DEC manager. Whoops! Sorry,
          meant to say the "average" American. 8^)

          Go see it, have a good time and don't try to be Siskel & Ebert! 
          

Re .85

Hilarious, but what happened to some (most?) of the line endings ?

Simes.
8^)

    Capsule Review: 	Even the five year olds didn't buy it.
    
    Once I got past a very strange notion: that this was simply Hollywood's
    way of saying it really, really wants Bill Clinton to get re-elected,
    the movie became extremely average.  The visual effects were simply not
    awe-inspiring -- I can see the roots of all those explosions in the
    screen saver on my workstation.
    
    Much has been made of the weakness of the plot.  I liked Judd Hirsch's
    character, and the woman who played Will Smith's love interest (she was
    sufficiently intrepid that I was willing to forgive the leap of the dog
    and ignore the fact that she would have been reduced to a cinder
    despite being out of the path of the fire).  Will Smith plays amusing
    Marine pilot.  Jeff Goldblum is going to be a scientist forever, it
    seems, though quite frankly he was given a more plausibly written role
    in the remake of The Fly.
    
    It was entertaining in its way.  I kept asking the question "What
    happens next" even though the answers were frequently predictable and
    consistently disappointing.
    
    Even the music was irritating, and I almost *never* get irritated by a
    movie score.
    
    Worth four bucks once on a big screen.

     Re .88
    
    I've never been able to get PointCast to print to a file and preserve
    all the line endings - it's irritating but livable...
    
    -Ray
    
    

  This movie is not a complete bust. It appears to be an attempt at being Star
Wars, Aliens, a Tom Clancy Novel, a Neil Simon romantic comedy, Henry V, and
the next episode of the Fresh Prince of Bell Air and I have to say it does
succeed at being the Fresh Prince. 

  Will Smith does a really fine job as a fighter pilot and carries his part of
the film off really well but there it all but ends. The rest of the movie is
just pieces taken out of the works listed above and they come no where near the
quality of those other films. 

  Jeff Goldblum recreates his role from Jarassic Park which is to say he is
terrible. This time he's suppose to be a cable repairman going nuts spouting
off nickel and dime Green Peace philosophy instead of a Chaos Theory
mathematician going nuts spouting off nickel and dime Green Peace philosophy
but it still doesn't work. Judd Hirsch does a plausible job at reminding us
that your father will still be proud of you even if you are an obnoxious loud
mouth but that's about all he adds to the story. 

  The high level commanders are all cardboard cut outs of heroes and villains.
In spite of an attempt at being Henry V the President doesn't come close. His
inspiring speech comes off rather lame and there is little chance that any time
soon we will all forget St. Crispin Day. 

  Even the effects left something to be desired. The dog fights are old hat by
now and The giant Frisbees sitting over the cities were a joke. 

  OK there were a few good scenes and Will Smith did a really fine job but on
the hole it just didn't work. It was too hokey and small in scope to be the
epic that you would need for such a world wide disaster. It's just too much of
what we've already seen time and time again served up with little more quality
than a TV diner. 

  ** out of 5,
  George

    
>  Jeff Goldblum recreates his role from Jarassic Park which is to say he is
>  terrible. This time he's suppose to be a cable repairman going nuts spouting
    					    ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^

    You're kidding, right?

    re .93  "cable repairman"
    
    
    Well, it's a little bit of a understatement to call him a cable
    repairman, but essentially, I believe his character troubleshoots the
    satellites for some cable company.  His father, or his estranged wife,
    or the President or somebody in the movie made the remark that he spent
    "8 years at MIT to become a cable repairman."
    
    
    kim

>    the right to do this to the audience.  You can't follow a serious
>    death scene with Fresh Prince joking about an Alien. 

Why not ? Shakespeare did. In "the scottish play" we have the drunken porter
talking to himself about opening the doors to the castle right after Mac%^&*
does away with the king.

Its called light relief.

Simes.

>>    Blah...  I still say this was junk.

I can understand and accept junk movies, but what irks me is the enormous hype
and the run-away success this one has, which I believe it doesn't deserve even
a tiny bit. 

I normally don't give too much attention to the reviews, but pick the top 2 
movies from the last-few weeks list. And most of the time they don't 
dissapoint me. But oh boy this one. No! not dissapointed but insulted.

- The President getting into the dog fight: This should be given an Oscar for
  the most silly, ridiculous & stupid scene. It offends my sense of humour -):

Of course there are many more shots which have been better done in the 70s and
80s action movies, even in TV serials.

My biggest gripe with all these action flicks: ID4, Rock, Eraser ...  

1. Cars smashing each other and flying in debri at 200mph doesn't get me to the
   edge of my seats anymore.. and the main characters walking away from a 
   smashed car is out right boring and silly.

2. The gun fights. When the maheym starts, I feel like shouting: OK! Next scene
   please!!

And I stay a mile away from Arnold S. movies for the very same reasons.

/Jay

Time to rent Guns of Navrone / M. Gold / 5 Men Army / Bridge over river Kwai

Re .98

OK, so you didn't like it. The point I want to make here is that these guys are
in the movie *business* and their aim is to *make money*. In this respect the
film is a masterpiece. Its got all the elements to draw big crowds - hype,
effects, big(ish) names, the whitehouse blowing up, etc.

Simes %^)

    
    
    
    re -1
    
    and don't forget all those wonderful toys which promote the movie!
    
    Chris
    :)

    From The Hollywood Reporter:
    
       'ID4' set for record-setting whisk past $200 mil mark 
       Saturday or Sunday. That's the only question remaining for
       20th Century Fox's mega-hit "Independence Day" -- the day
       experts predict the Roland Emmerich-directed film will hit the
       massive $200 million mark. If the action film goes according to
       form -- it has beaten the previous top boxoffice winner,
       Universal Pictures' "Jurassic Park," in $50 million increments
       -- the film will realize the fastest monetary sprint to the $200
       million mark in boxoffice history.
    
    
    E
    

    
.95 reposted with spoiler warning:
    
    
    > Sorry, but I can't get worked up about a less-than-convincing 
    > "alien-stopping virus transfer via laptop" scene in a movie where 
    > the President himself climbs into a fighter plane to personally 
    > attack the aliens.
    
    Well I can.  The thing that irks me the most is the non-chalance of
    the creators.  I can forgive a tcp/ip connection to an Alien ship
    in a comedy.  But the Fighter Piloting President scenes denied them
    the right to do this to the audience.  You can't follow a serious
    death scene with Fresh Prince joking about an Alien.  You can't 
    expect an audience to take the invasion personally when there's
    so much schlock going on?  What did the movie want to be?  It took
    the lazy way out of deciding by NOT deciding.
    
    I still say the latest round of movies, and this one is the worst
    offender, are really slagging it.  They give us less and less and
    we just accept it.  Hey, mindless entertainment is fun, but it
    takes WORK to make great mindless entertainment.
    
    And there's nothing wrong with Schlock.  I love Schlock.  And it doesn't
    bother me if Schlock makes a hundred bazillion dollars.
    
    Look at Tremors.  Look at Back To the Future.  There wasn't one
    millisecond of wasted film in those to Schlock Kings.  Everything
    hung together and the movie forwarded a great story line.  Simple,
    mindless entertainment, but the creators cared about what they
    were doing.
    
    This looks like hackneyed together movie-making by committee where
    the only thing that mattered was if it got out the door on time
    and on budget.
    
    Blah...  I still say this was junk.
    
    - Sean
    

    
    Well, after seeing the new Apple commercial, I now realize why were
    subjected to the laptop spoiler scene...  It's like the whole reason 
    for the movie was to make that commercial...  sad.  This puts it into
    that Burger King movie John Goodman made category...
    
    - Sean

	Well I forked over my money on Sat. night to see this one.  Saw
	it at the Milford Drive-In, and we got there after the co-feature
	had already started and there was still a line of cars backed up
	onto the main road!  (though it appeared to also be a pretty good
	sized crowd for the Nutty Professor on the other screen)

	I must say I am very disappointed given all the excitement that
	I read in here, including a suggestion that this one should really
	be seen on a big screen instead of video, and a build up that while
	it was a given this films plot was very weak, that the special
	effects and action would be great.

	What I found was a movie with only a couple of action sequences,
	and nothing spectacular on the special effects front except for
	the scene with the live alien.  The rest of the aliens looked like
	they used puppets.  And the way the spaceships arrived made me think
	the projectionist accidently put on a reel from Twister!

	And the plot which I had not expected much from anyways was indeed
	pretty lame and unexciting.  As either S&E or M&L had said, this
	film reminded them alot of a Sci-Fi B-flick from the 50's, and I agree!

	If you want to see an action film go see Mission Impossible or
	The Rock, both films were magnitudes better than this film on
	all fronts (action, special effects, and plots).  Wait for
	the video for ID4!

	Kudos to the marketing folks for this film, they were able to
	sell me some snake oil!

*** POTENTIAL SPOILER ***





>	the scene with the live alien.  The rest of the aliens looked like
>	they used puppets.  And the way the spaceships arrived made me think
>	the projectionist accidently put on a reel from Twister!

Where's the spoiler warning ??? I, for one, didn't know we would see the aliens.


>	film reminded them alot of a Sci-Fi B-flick from the 50's, and I agree!

I seem to remember reading somewhere that this was *meant* to be an homage to
said "B" films, so in this respect it was successful, no ?

Simes %^)

    
    
    re .104
    
    
    also, seeing a movie on a drive-in screen isn't nearly as good
    as in a good theatre with excellent sound system.
    
    the picture alone leaves alot to be desired let alone the sound.
    
    Chris
    :)

I waited until I saw the movie (this past weekened) to read any 
of these replies, so I've been behind on the current argument about
whether movies need to be intellectually stimulating.

The answer is that no, they don't all have to be intellectual, but they do
need to make sense at some level.  ID4 fails to meet that level.

I'm a science fiction fan, and I have been since my age was in single digits.
This was a CRAPPY science fiction movie, albeit a largely entertaining
and somewhat enjoyable mainstream movie.

Let me put the rest behind a FF, just in case anybody is reading this
hasn't yet seen the movie.

The plot holes are just too large to take, and these are made worse
because there is just NO sense of suspense in the entire movie.
The trailers and other ads lay out the initial situation, right down
to the point that you KNOW the invasion will begin and HOW.  (The Mac ad:
When you have only 28 minutes to save the world, make sure you have the 
right computer.)
And you know there will be a happy ending because it's after July 4 
and the theatres are still standing.

So what comes in between?  No conflict at all.  There's no apparent effort
on Jeff Golblum's part in inventing his virus, and he's spent most
of his time in Area 51 drunk.  Will Smith learns to fly the alien
space craft with NO time at the controls ("Ooops," just that little
matter of pushing the controls the wrong way on initial take off.)
The president gets everything he needs to know in one telepathic blast
from the captured alien (who show no other evidence of using their
telepathy on any other humans, including Goldblum and Smith in the mother ship).

What would I want?
Some evidence that some thought by the characters OR the producers
went into their situation.
Simple statements like "I've disabled all the comm systems on the captured
space craft so we can't be challenged on the way into the mother ship"
would go a long way.


For the non-SF fans, let me present an analogy:
A mystery buff would be insulted if the actual murderer was a character
introduced in the last 30 seconds of the movie, with no apparent
connection to the rest of the story.

There are conventions that define genres, and violating the conventions
takes you out of the genre.  If you are expecting a movie (or book, or other 
art form of a given genre), and don't get it, you stand to be disappointed.

Let me say it again:  There is no suspense in this movie at all,
and very little dramatic conflict.
You want special effects?  Watch the old newsreel of the Hindenberg explosion.
Far more dramatic and engaging.

Alternatively, watch the ads on TV - that's all there is.

- tom]

    You mean, this movie is merely a giant piece of commercial schlock?
    
    I'm shocked, I tell you. Shocked!

>>OK, so you didn't like it. The point I want to make here is that these guys are
>>in the movie *business* and their aim is to *make money*. In this respect the
>>film is a masterpiece. 

The marketing for this junk product is a masterpiece.

Normally when a movie is hyped up so much, it *makes an attempt* to live up to 
its expectations. The gap between the hype and reality won't be too much.
But in this one, I feel cheated waiting in line for an hour and spending $7.50
for a lemon. My belief on the press reviews has reached a new low!. 

The negative effects of ID4:

 - More such trash I am afraid would be produced in the hope that anything can
   be sold with effecting marketing.

 - people would be more skeptical of what they hear and read as reviews and
   as such some really good ones will bite the dust!


IMHO, the only one in recent times, which matched its pre-release hype and 
lived up to its expectations (or even surpassed it) is - Jurassic Park.

/Jay

    re: .107 
    wicked funny point.  Determining what constitutes a "spoiler" is
    probably more difficult then mapping the human brain. I've seen whole
    detailed reviews and no one crys "Spoiler" and someone back a few
    (named Michaud or Sandra Bullock - I can't remember) mentions that 
    there's alains in this flick and gets chastized for it.
    
    Wow! There's ALAINS in this flick?  I never would have guessed.
    
    Steve
    

   re: .-1

   No, there are "aliens" in it.  I don't know what "alains" are, but they
   probably don't spoil much of a point.

   re: "marketing", and "more such trash"

   Oh, you don't have to wait.  I've already seen ads for movies due out in 
   August which say things like, "You thought it all ended on July 4th - you 
   were WRONG!!!"  I'm shocked.

   -- Sam

    
    
    I think the point about the spoiler was lost on you but
    it was one of our moderators who failed to put the spoiler
    warning while deleting other people's notes for the same faux pas.
    
    Just a little bit of in-house rivalry.
    
    Chris
    :)

> I think the point about the spoiler was lost on you but
> it was one of our moderators who failed to put the spoiler
> warning while deleting other people's notes for the same faux pas.

	FWIW, those notes that were deleted (and forwarded back to
	their authors for reposting with a spoiler warning) were
	only deleted after a couple of other noters had complained.
	In fact one of those who complained requested that I delete
	a string of five (5) notes.  After re-reading those 5 notes,
	only 2 were sent back to their authors for reposting.  The
	other 3 contained no information that wasn't already well
	known from the trailers or S&E or L&M.

	The fact that we see very little of the aliens was already
	well known, *and* gives does not give away the plot/ending.

	As Chris said, it's ....

> Just a little bit of in-house rivalry.

>	other 3 contained no information that wasn't already well
>	known from the trailers or S&E or L&M.

Excuse my ignorance, but who or what are S&E and L&M ? 

Simes %^)

    S&E and L&M are critics on two popular shows.  S&E are Siskel and Ebert
    (Gene and Roger) from oh, dern, what's the name of their show?  "At the
    Movies"?  
    
    They started out on PBS on "Sneak Previews", then left for commericial
    syndication.   L&M are Lyons and Medved (Timothy and Michael I
    think) who took over "Sneak Previews" when S&E left.
    
    
    Not to be confused with A&E or S&M, of course. :)
    
    
    
    kim

    
    	RE: S&M
    
    	Well, Lyons and Medved were a salesman and a mechanic, respect-
    	ively, before getting their current gigs.
    	

Could someone explain why it's called "ID4" rather than just "ID"?

				-- Bob

    well  http://www.id.com/
    was already taken so they had to pick something else... July "4"

    this movie was bad, not worth even a rental.
    good thing is I only paid $1.50 to see it.

    
    	Hmmm, I forgot to ask this:
    
    	They refer to the movie as "ID4" so that the movie is easier
    	to relate to the name of the complementary WWW site?
    

Yes, I know that Independence Day is July 4th, but no one calls White
Christmas "WC25".  Is ID4 an alternate title that appears on movie posters
etc. or is it just the name of the web site?

It's been a while since I've seen my last movie, so I'm a little out of
touch.

				-- Bob

RE .124 - "ID4" appeared a lot in the "The Making of Independence Day"
special that's been airing on HBO.  Seems like their "official" logo or
something.  Personally, I think it's a silly abbreviation.  (But I still
enjoyed the movie. :-) )

-- Nina

   Yes, it appears it's just a silly abbreviation, using a number because
   it's "hip".  (See current trends like, "Boyz 2 Men", "2 Hott 4 U", etc.)
   Yes, it's stupid and meaningless, but it sticks in your mind.

   -- Sam

    Someone on rec.moves.current-films is keeping a list of all the "in"
    jokes in this move.  Very funny... it's full of them.
    
    Here's a few
     - "The Day the Earth Stood Still" was on the TV in the Motorhome
     - There are apparently a couple of X-Files references
     - The computer says "Good Morning Dave" - From "2001".
     - The Statue of Liberty resembled the scene from "Planet of the Apes."
     - Did they know when they were writing the script that their summer
       competition would be the Cable Guy and Striptease?  Two of the main
       characters are a cable guy and a stripper.
    
    There's lots more....
    
    Basicly, I found this to be a super-fun, super-cheezy, super-exciting
    summer sci-fi flick.  I'll go see it again before the summer's over...
    
    Later...
    Steve
    

    Actually, the Statue of Liberty in the water reminded me of the poster
    to "Escape from New York" more than "Planet of the Apes".  But that's
    just me. :)
    
    
    
    kim

    
    David Lynch is smart enough to pull off that many in-jokes well.
    As are the Coen Brothers, Stanley Kubrick, and Steven Speilberg.
    
    The hacks that made this movie are not - half of those things are
    conincidences and the rest were just brutally obvious (like the
    2001 reference).
    
    "Cheesy" was a good description a few back, but not in a good way.
    
    When it comes to assembling a Worst 10 of all time, you really
    have to think about it.  It's not so much "How bad was it?" but
    "How bad was it compared to the $$ it made or the hype it generated
    or the quality of actors in it?"  I'd have to give this serious 
    consideration for Worst 10 Ever based on that, right down there 
    with "The 3 Amigos" and "The January Man."  
    
    And I thought "Total Recall" was the biggest FX ripoff ever...  shoosh!
    
    - Sean

>>    have to think about it.  It's not so much "How bad was it?" but
>>    "How bad was it compared to the $$ it made or the hype it generated
>>    or the quality of actors in it?"^^^^^^^^^^  

		Bingo! Bingo!

I would be Pi$$ed if this grosses more than JP at the end.

On the flip side, I felt WaterWorld deserved a little bit more success

/Jay

    The thing is though...every one who replies to this, whether it be a
    good review or a bad review...anyone who hasn't seen it will want to.
    
    To decide for themselves.
    
    Either way the makers win!  They only have to sucker ya in once!

    
    
    I'm gonna see it! :))))
    
    Chris
    :)

    Re .130:
    
    > I would be Pi$$ed if this grosses more than JP at the end.
    
    Likewise I am outraged that Deepak Chopra's new tome "Infinite Soul Air
    Twinkling" is grossing more than "The Celestine Prophecy" on the best
    seller list.
    
    It's all schlock, what's the diff. You didn't actually think Jurassic
    Park was good, did you?  Dinosaurs run around and kill people. Might as
    well have been tigers. Great concept wasted in favor of cheap thrills.
    
    
 
 

    > Either way the makers win!  They only have to sucker ya in once!
    
    Well, they've suckered me in *twice*, and I *still* haven't seen
    the movie!  The first time, five minutes into the movie (if that),
    one of my kids loudly announced "I feel like I'm gonna throw up"
    (presumably not in reaction to the onscreen events; it was during
    the Heartwarming Presidential phone call to his wife), and we left.
    
    The second time was last night; about twenty minutes before the
    end of the movie, the same kid required a very long, accompanied
    (by me) bathroom trip.  I just sat out the rest of the movie in
    the lobby, feeling forlorn and dejected.  Someone "up there" does
    not want me to see this movie.
    
    Rather than hand them any more money, I'm just going to assume
    that "we win".
    
    I'm still trying to determine, based on what I did manage to see,
    whether Judd Hirsch did a good job or laid it on a bit too thick.
    He was certainly a welcome sight there, compared to most of the
    other cast.
    
    Chris

  Thank that kid, he did you a favor twice. Just remember if you do sit through
the entire thing one day that he did his best to spare you the agony. 

  Ok, it wasn't that bad but I certainly wouldn't feel bad about having missed
a few bits here and there.

  George

    I read recently that sales of the recent prize-winning novel
    "Independence Day", by Richard Ford, have gone up since the release of
    this movie.  Apparently people think it's the book of the movie, or the
    book on which the movie is based.  
    
     

    Not that it's "on the subject"... but is the book "Independence Day"
    about a Father and Son and their pilgrammage to Cooperstown, NY?
    
    Steve
    

    Saw this for the second time while on vacation in Florida last week, in
    a big theater with a GREAT sound system.  Made the movie more
    enjoyable, and the fact that I'd already seen it did not detract a bit
    from my enjoying the movie for what it was - a big comic book, not a
    science fact symposium.  My darling wife, who usually has no use for
    movie of this genre, thoroughly enjoyed it.
    
    NAZZ

>    <<< Note 1024.137 by REFDV1::MURPHY "Symbolic stack dump follows..." >>>
>                              -< Baseball H.O.F? >-

>    Not that it's "on the subject"... but is the book "Independence Day"
>    about a Father and Son and their pilgrammage to Cooperstown, NY?
    
    I haven't read the book, but I believe the story does involve a father
    taking his son to Cooperstown over the 4th of July weekend.
    
    -Stephen

    So ...  in the book, what did the father and son do when the aliens arrived?
    
    Steve ;^) (who thinks he's figured out why nobody complains about the book?)

         I jumped into this discussion late, but I would just like to say
    that this is the greatest movie in the past 10 years. 

    
    	That settles it ... I'd almost bet it sucks.
    
    	8^)
    

         Best movie I've seen since "The Empire Strikes Back". 

    It was very good.  There is something about seeing millions die on the
    screen. Does something to me every time.

    Great summer fun, but, no where as good as the "Star Wars" films.

    Discussion of the upcoming "Star Wars" films were moved to Topic 222
    ("Star Wars Saga").  Please continue any discussions of "Star Wars"
    there, since in the future that's where people will try to find it. :^)
    
    - Dave (one of the moderators)

    
         I finally saw it at the budget matinee.  It was enjoyable, but not
    great.  As much as I like Will Smith, I think his joking intruded on some 
    of the scenes (imagine "War of the Worlds" starring Rodney Dangerfield).
    
         It's a sure video rental hit.
    
                                          Greg

         It wasn't supposed to be a serious movie. It kind of reminded me
    of something out of the fifties with a huge budget. 

    
         It was not supposed to be an entirely comedic movie either. 
    Unfortunately, the transitions between moods was not always good.
    
                                     Greg

    Mary McDonnell and Bill Pulman were on the Big Breakfast today plugging
    this movie....
                            ^
    			    |
    			    ------- Attempt to point out relevancy to 
    				    this note...
    
    Any woman who can blow raspberries on her upper arm (unprompted)
    during an appropriate moment of mayhem, has to be pretty whacky
    in my book.... Mary McD' had a lot of funny one-liners in to the
    bargain.
    
    

I saw this movie here in the UK at one of the special previews last night and
can only say "WOW!".

Having read all previous notes about this, I was fully prepared for the holes
in the story you could drive a truck (or should I say "mothership" ?) through.
So I sat there, suspended my disbelief, and enjoyed the whole darn thing.

I particularly enjoyed the comic moments with Julius Levinson (Judd Hirsch).
Personally, I think they struck just the right balance between humour and
drama, with the possible exception of Capt. Hiller's (Will Smith) constant
wise-cracks.

I thought Brent Spiner as Dr. Okun was going to be a way OTT performance, but
was pleasantly surprised to find that it wasn't. He was still a tad odd, to say
the least, but still (marginally) believable as a crazy scientist.


S       S       S       S       S       S       S       S       S       S       
 P       P       P       P       P       P       P       P       P       P      
  O       O       O       O       O       O       O       O       O       O
   I       I       I       I       I       I       I       I       I       I    
    L       L       L       L       L       L       L       L       L       L   
     E       E       E       E       E       E       E       E       E       E  
      R       R       R       R       R       R       R       R       R       R 
       S       S       S       S       S       S       S       S       S       
        P       P       P       P       P       P       P       P       P      
         O       O       O       O       O       O       O       O       O
          I       I       I       I       I       I       I       I       I    
           L       L       L       L       L       L       L       L       L   
            E       E       E       E       E       E       E       E       E  
             R       R       R       R       R       R       R       R       R 



The one major gripe I have about the movie is the ease with which they
interfaced with the alien's computer. It could have easily been explained away
by saying earlier on that they had studied the computers in the crashed alien
craft from Area 51 and had worked out how they work. Maybe it was meant to be
implied by the fact that they had managed to get the thing flying again.

So, basically a great summer block buster type mega hit, but a little more
thought wouldn't have gone amiss.

4 (maybe 4.5) out of 5

Simes %^)

    
    
    Saw this one over the weekend and was very pleased despite alot
    of negative reviews.
                                        
    spoilers
    
    
    
    The laptop stuff didn't bug me because the aliens had been using
    earth satelite system for their own communications so it wouldn't be
    inconceivable that you could use the same signal to infect the aliens
    with a computer virus.
    
    what does get me is that the governments ( all of them ) would wait
    that long to do anything whatsover about a potentially agressive
    transgressor into their airspace.
    
    
    also that the president would go up in a fighter in any situation
    leaving his country without a head of state especially when the rest
    of the governent had been wiped out.
    
    Chris
    :)

    I saw this last night. It's generally a good movie: i didn't get bored
    in it at all. It's a bit cheesy and the speech given by the president
    is way over the top. The humour was right and Jeff Goldblum & will
    Smith work well.
    
    
    
    a good 4 outta 5
    
incidently who play's will smith's girlfriend? she has got a fantastic pair
    of eyes.
    

    
    
    Vivica Fox plays Will Smith's girlfriend.  Apparently the ring that
    Will Smith gives to her in the movie has caused a stir among the
    jewlery business.  Thanks to two fairly good close-ups of the ring,
    Dolphin and nature jewlery has hit a high.  FWIW.
    
    

    That leads me into what I took to be the moral of the movie.... If
    there's one thing you should do in life, it's marry an exotic dancer.
    
    
    Stephen

    Finally saw this yesterday, nearly 7 weeks after premiere, and then
    read all the preceding notes. Everybody's right. This is a great movie,
    full of plot holes and too many violations of the Laws of Physics.
    But it's supposed to be nutritionless mind candy, and it works for me.
    
    We've all been to weddings and seen wedding cakes before. This movie is
    like a wedding cake. You know what to expect. You can look at the
    decorations and say "that's nice" or you can look at them and say "Oh,
    that's been done before, there's nothing new here." You can choose to
    concentrate on the seam between layers 2 and 3 where they gaffed, using
    yellow frosting, or you can look at the beautiful rosettes on the top. 
    Your choice.
    
      John

    I saw it Saturday, and was surprised that the theater was packed,
    after 7 weeks.  
    
    I thought it was (only) ok.
    
    Sue

    re .156
    
    What a GREAT comparison!!!! Liked it!!
    
    S..x

    Finally saw this Saturday nite!!
    
    Went in thinking how 'cheesy' it was gonna be and I was quite prepared
    for a disappointment but.....not THAT much of one!!!
    
    Ok - fair enough - it was ok...but JUST OK!!
    
    Absolutely full of holes (no wonder you guys used the expression
    cheesy!)...I agree with an earlier noter - they obviously could not
    decide whether to make it serious or funny and they certainly did NOT
    make the balance!!
    
    I will admit however, that both Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum were both
    very good in their roles - and worked well together - the only part in
    the film where the humor DID work!!
    
    So I'm glad I saw it on BIG screen as opposed to Video for the FX which
    I did think were pretty good (but not Awe-inspiring!) but I agree with
    what seems the majority of noters on this topic that the film was not at 
    all - 'all that' - and I'm sorry to say that even after all the warnings -
    I was still VERY disappointed!!
    
    
    If you haven't yet seen it and still are - make sure you leave your
    brain at home!!
    
    S..x

    Oops !! Forgot to mention that I went with 5 other people - 1 other hated 
    it, 2 loved it, and 2 had mixed opinions!!
    
    So - make of that what you wish!!
    
    S..x

    
    	I am constantly seeing people refer to movies that are "full of
    	plot holes", but it's very rare that the plot holes are actual-
    	ly mentioned specifically.
    
    	Is this just some sort of a recent catch phrase that doesn't
    	mean what it's supposed to, or do people actually discover a
    	plot hole now and then?
    

OK. I'm one of those that uses the phrase "plot hole". My guess is that if this
were the Star Trek notes file we might be calling them "nits", as in nit-picking.

How else might you describe a plot hole ? Gaping flaw in the internal
consistency of the plot, maybe ?

Simes %^)

    
    
    
    coming from someone who liked the film alot! Here is a list of
    plot holes that I can remember off the top of my head.:
    
    
    spoiler warnings:
    
    
    
    
    	1) Wil Smith hits the alien wearing the special body armour and 
           said alien is knocked out for a good 3 - 5 hours
    
    	2 a) Wil Smith's girlfriend character survives the alien attack by
    	   ducking into a maintenance room while the rest of the city is
           trashed
        2 b) the dog survives as above
    
    	3) the presidents wife survives the helipcopter crash and looks
           pretty damned fine afterwards thankyou despite everyone else
           including the pilot being trashed
    
        4) the alien spaceship is equipped with 2 seats that are suited
           for humans to use when their alien bodies have about a million
           whipping things sticking out the back.
    
        5) the president is allowed to fly the mission when he is the only
           governmental representative left
    
        6) that people can get a crash course at flying an F-18 and
           actually fly let alone in formation
    
        7) that some kind of strike wasn't called alot earlier in the plot
           when usually anything entering airspace is tagged by armed
           forces jets.
    
        8) that it took  mere seconds for the laptop to negotiate with the
           host on the alien ship. (I could have accepted that they just
           embedded the virus in the signals that the aliens were already
           using through the satelite system)
    
    
    
    Chris
    :)                  

>    	1) Wil Smith hits the alien wearing the special body armour and 
>           said alien is knocked out for a good 3 - 5 hours

Maybe the creature's brain isn't in its head and it was something a trifle more
delicate that he mashed ?
   
>        8) that it took  mere seconds for the laptop to negotiate with the
>           host on the alien ship. (I could have accepted that they just
>           embedded the virus in the signals that the aliens were already
>           using through the satelite system)

Ahh. If only the internet were that reliable !

For a real laugh check out the HUMANE::HUMOR notes conference note 896, "CERT
Advisory: ID4 Virus"

Simes %^)

    okay, i have somewhat of an imagination...  chris, this is in no
    way a stab at you directly... i was just having a moment and your
    statements happened to be the latest to reply to.... sorry.   
    
>    	1) Wil Smith hits the alien wearing the special body armour and 
>           said alien is knocked out for a good 3 - 5 hours

    um, the alien just crash landed his space ship... i might be knocked
    out too.  sure, the alien may have been semi concious when wil hit
    him in the head, but do you really think the director wanted you to
    think wil smith knocked him out... c'mon.

>    	2 a) Wil Smith's girlfriend character survives the alien attack by
>    	   ducking into a maintenance room while the rest of the city is
>          trashed

     why was it a maintenance room... why wasn't it a deep dark sewer
     system that could have been so deep under the city it may as well
     have been a bomb shelter?  there was so much chaos on screen, you
     the viewer were not supposed to think twice about this.

>        2 b) the dog survives as above

     yeah, like they are gonna kill the pooch.
    
>    	3) the presidents wife survives the helipcopter crash and looks
>           pretty damned fine afterwards thankyou despite everyone else
>           including the pilot being trashed

     she might have looked fine, but she did die... didn't she?  they
     needed some drama and tearjerking.

>        4) the alien spaceship is equipped with 2 seats that are suited
>           for humans to use when their alien bodies have about a million
>           whipping things sticking out the back.

     that particular alien spacecraft had been in the possession of the
     u.s. government and could very easily been modified to support human
     pilots rather than aliens.
   
>        5) the president is allowed to fly the mission when he is the only
>           governmental representative left

     chris, he's a pilot, he belongs in the air... or whatever he said.
     how could the pres really become the hero if he didn't do this...?    

>        6) that people can get a crash course at flying an F-18 and
>           actually fly let alone in formation

     they took people with previous flight experience... not people off
     the street.  sure, it's still a stretch, but not for a movie.
   
>        7) that some kind of strike wasn't called alot earlier in the plot
>           when usually anything entering airspace is tagged by armed
>           forces jets.

     there were considerations for a nuclear strike, but until the aliens
     started destroying the earth, a nuclear strike wasn't in our best
     interests because we would have killed ourselves anyway... right?

>        8) that it took  mere seconds for the laptop to negotiate with the
>           host on the alien ship. (I could have accepted that they just
>           embedded the virus in the signals that the aliens were already
>           using through the satelite system)

     maybe they couldn't impregnate the virus thru the alien signals that
     were running through our own satellites?  maybe they had to take it
     to the source....


     /brian_(who took the ID4 for what it was worth... entertainment)

    RE: Last few........
    
    Folks, this film only opened last week here in Australia.  A lot of
    folks still haven't seen it (myself included), so could I ask that you
    use form feeds???
    
    (granted it may only be mind candy, but I still enjoy not knowing
    everything....)
    
    	..klaas..

    Warning, sploiler:
    
    
    
    
    But, the one that got me was when the gorgeous girlfriend, various
    survivors, President's wife among them, are somewhere amid the ruins
    of LA, and Will Smith goes off to find her.  Next scene, out of the
    dust..here he comes....he found her in no time at all!!  And where/
    how did he have the room to land that chooper amid the ruins anyway?!
    
    Sue

    re: .167  
    
    <spoiler>
    
    Actually, she went to the air base and that's where Will found her.
    They had already planned on her moving to the base, so it was natural
    that they would expect to meet there.
    
    Steve

  I usually let these nit type things go but the one that really got me was:

SPOILER


  The President's wife seemed to have internal injuries as her major medical
problem. Granted I'm not a doctor but it seems that this is not the type of
thing where a doctor decides 5 minutes before her death that they can't do
anything about it if she's still awake and able to carry on a conversation.

  Some forms of cancer? Perhaps, but it seems that if someone with internal
injuries was health enough to still be awake, they would not have given up
and would still have been working on her.

  George

    SPOILER;
    
    
    
    
    I felt the same way about the President's wife.  She didn't seem to
    have much of a role here.  I couldn't really understand why she was
    even in the film (apart from the name - Loved her in "Dances with 
    Wolves" & "Grand Canyon").  I felt sorry for the diminished role she
    played in ID4.
    
    Loved the movie...quite excellent..... even with all the blatent "plot
    holes"
    
    Steve

    <spoiler>
    
    
    I expect that the Prez's wife and maybe other loose ends are there for
    the sequel.  Now that the Prez is single, there can be a love interest
    later on.  Also, we've seen that the aliens were preparing for a land
    assault.  Maybe next time.  
    
    Steve

    Of the theaters in the Greater Boston area which list themselves in the 
    Boston Globe, only Framingham lists this as being shown in digital
    format. Does anyone know of any other theaters, especially in No.MA,
    So.NH, which are showing this in digital format?
    
    Thanks in advance

    
    The release date for the video is.....Nov 22nd.
    It was announced by Fox today.
    
    Selling price $22.99
    
    Dave