Conference terri::cars_uk

    Larrouse have signed Japanese F3000 driver Ukyo Katayama. Not sure
    is this starts immediately or from the start of '92.
    
    Paul

    I would not count Leyton House. All assets and companies owned by Mr
    Akagi will soon be under strict scrutiny.

    
    Does this Japanese driver come equipped with the full 1992 sponsorship
    kit, Paul?
    
    Mark

    Re -1
    
    Mark, the note gave all I knew. But this guy was being talked about in
    the rags as a 92 driver. 
    
    Re -2
    
    Leyton House internally are farily confident they'll be around in 92,
    even if Akagi goes down, they look an attractive option for a
    purchaser.
    
    Paul

Katayama is the lastest rising star from the Land of the Rising Sun. He is
replacing Suzuki - who has announced his retirement.

    
    Suzuki AND Nakajima both retiring? 
    
    Mark

    The last I heard Suzuki was off to Footwork, plus Mugen engines. He
    used to drive for Footwork in Japanese F3000.
    
    Paul

The Swiss commentator must have been confused about Suzuki then - because he
said that he was retiring.

    Brabham have told Martin Blundell that his contract will not be
    renewed, unlike earlier speculation. They are apparantley seeking
    drivers from rather further East than Essex, who come complete with a
    sack of yen.
    
    Paul

    that famous compilation driver!

    Damn....
    
    You spotted my deliberate mistake! You win the star prize of a week in
    the Monza toilets.
    
    Paul

    Whatever happn'd to BRITISH drivers???
    
    They all fade away after only a hiccup
    eg:	Johnny Dumfries, Julian Bailey, Rupert Keegan, Tiff Needell,
    Jonathon Palmer... also sadly apparently Derek Warwick, Martin Brundel
    and Mark Blundell.
    
    Who will be the next stage in the the Hunt-Watson-Mansell saga?
    
    Seems sad that the in country which the majority of teams are based and
    drivers do their early bits cannot support its own!
    
    Any new British (or Irish) drivers for 1992 (they'll only last a year
    anyway).
    
    Jules

    I think you'll find that most of them excel in other forms of racing.

    ITV's ceefax last night ran a story about Nannini testing at Mugello
    last week and saying he was 99% certain to be back in F1 next year.
    This seems to be at odds with his reported comments in the paddock at
    Monza. Anybody else throw any light on this?
    
    Re British Drivers
    
    Unlike our European friends, British companies are *very* reluctant to
    sponsor drivers. Therefore, in the current climate, unless a driver is
    exceptionally talented or gets linked to Marlboro' they have problems
    getting an F1 drive. We have a lot of very talented young drivers,
    
    McNish (sorry mark!)
    Coulthard
    Hill
    Jason Elliot
    Warren Hughes
    
    etc etc
    
    However, very few will ever see F1 despite the fact that they could
    probably do a far better job than many of the young (and not so young)
    Italians etc such as Barbazza, Foitek (I know he's Swiss), Morbidelli &
    co.
    
    Paul

    
    There is a rumour that reckoned Blundell would be partnered by Hill
    next season. I don't know where that rumour stands now. Maybe Brundle
    and Hill will drive the Brabhams?
    
    Mark
    
    PS Paul, don't feel you have to apologise for McNish. The hype wasn't
    all your fault! :^)

.13>    Whatever happn'd to BRITISH drivers???
    
    
    A few years back (sort of 1975-ish) my parents ran a small village pub
    in Great Staughton - close to an airfield at Little Staughton which
    contained the usual 'businesses' in the falling apart huts still
    rentable. One such business was ROYALE RACING (Formula Ford, or
    similar), and the 'team' used to eat and drink in our pub.
    
    My mother remembers one particularly 'off hand' young driver they had
    - his name was Ayrton Senna !!
    
    Does this mean that all the aspiring BRITISH drivers are pushed out at
    the early stages, or do we have the best learning ground for would-be F1
    drivers ?

    
    He called himself Ayrton Da Silva then, though.
    
    Mark

    Or was it Nelson Senna ?

    In fact it was Ayrton Senna da Silva

    Name:               Binny
    
    Specialist subject: The bleedin' obvious 
    
    8-)

    
    Re .20
    
    Not according to the Programmes I've got from his FF/F3 days, although
    you may be right in that he used the full name for a while.
    
    Mark

    Wait a minute gents... As I was trying to point out. Wasn't it Piquet
    who had to change his name from De Silva so his mum wouldn't recognise
    him on telly ?

    Ayrton's full name is Ayrton Senna da Silva. He dropped the last bit
    'cos it was too wordy. Piquet *did* change his name from da Silva too
    though.
    
    Paul

    Nelson changed his name from Soutamayor to Piquet.  

    Yep... And I also read somewhere that Harold Lloyd changed his
    name to Nigel Mansell !!

    
   	re .27 Such a comedian is Mr Page
    
        

    
    I believe his real name is Taffy Von Bayern, but he considers it too
    wordy for us Brits! :^)
    
    Mark

    	Quote from MN's Rear View Mirroe for 10 years ago (1/10/81) :
    Ayrton da Silva shocked everyone by retiring! The FF1600 star said that
    "in racing, talent is not important, it's all down to maney." How wrong
    he was!!
    
    	It seems to me that, although a few deals have already been done,
    there is not so much of a "silly season" so far as there was last year
    - or maybe it's just because most of the leading runners (Ferrari
    drivers apart, I wonder why...) are staying put?
    
    Colin

    A few bits from Autosport -
    
    Ferrari have offered Michael Andretti a ride next season
    
    Blundell is talking to Fomet who are expanding to two cars
    
    AGS and Larousse are 99% certain to merge, with Central Park and hence
    a bit of the Modena team involved too.
    
    Suzuki is confirmed at Footwork but no confirmation of Mugen engines
    
    Katayama (?) has signed a 3 year deal with Larousse
    
    Brabham are talking to another Japanese driver (34 years old! can't
    remember the name) about next year
    
    Ilmor are possibly switching teams with a Sauber F1 team being
    mentioned
    
    All the merging and drop outs could mean pre-qual is a thing of the
    past I suppose.
    
    On even further distant horizons...
    
    There are rumours of Prost going back to McLaren with Senna in '93
    
    Benetton are also still talking about a junior team, with Silk Cut
    backing and Martini and Fittipaldi as the drivers.
    
    Paul

    I would assume that piece about Andretti is someone putting a lot
    of rumours together. If it happens it will depend on Prost and
    Karl Haas. But what if (unlikely as it may seem) Andretti doesn't
    win the CART title ? Will he want to stay in the States ? Also,
    would an F1 contract exclude him from the Indy 500 ? That could
    be a big sticking point.

    
    The real question is...
    
    Would Ferrari be able to build a car wide enough for him?
    
    Mark

    I think the Autosport article mentioned Ferrari truck division.

If Michael Andretti wins the CART championship this year, the only big
achievement left for him in Indy-cars is winning the Indianapolis 500.
Between preparation, the 2 weeks of qualifying, and the race itself, the
Indy 500 occupies a driver for the whole month of May.  Michael Andretti is
highly unlikely to leave the top ranks of Indy-cars for an uncompetitive F1
ride, and I can't see any of the top teams being willing to give him the entire
month of May off from F1.  I don't think we'll see Michael Andretti in F1
until after he's bagged the Indy 500.

--PSW

    Agreed. The same goes for Little Al.

	I read about Grand-Prix regulations a few years ago, not that
	I found it tremendously exhilarating at the time, but out of sheer 
	curiosity. I remember reading (but I may be mistaken) that the 
	maximum time and distance of a grand-prix should be 2 hours 
	and/or 300 kms.

	However, all Grand-Prix are now all between 302 and 310 kms. Is this
	a tolerance in the regulations (which sole raison-d'etre by the way
	seems to be the filling of Messrs Balestre and Ecclestone's pockets 
	with good hard cash - "Hey you! show me your socks! Look, they're
	all blue! Didn't you read the new regulations published this morning?
	All drivers should wear white and green lisle socks, with 
	"In Ballestre We Trust" embroided in gold thread on it - just around
	the ankle, where it's nice. So it's a 5,000 $ fine for you, you twit!
	Oh sorry Alain, I didn't see it was you. Just forget it!") or have 
	the regulations changed, or ...?

	Pierre.

	  

    It's a minimum of 300km or a maximum of 2 hours. So they have to
    complete the lap they're on when the 300 come up. (Mind you I'm not
    sure any circuit could contribute a lap of 10km!)
    
    JK

    Provisional 1992 Calendar
    
    1st March		S. Africa
    22nd March		Mexico
    5th April		Brazil
    3rd May		Spain - Barcelona
    17th May		San Marino
    31st May		Monaco
    14th June		Canada
    5th July		France
    12th July		G Britain
    26th July		Germany
    16th August		Hungary
    30th August		Belgium
    13th September	Italy
    27th September	Portugal
    4th October		Europe - Jerez
    25th October	Japan
    8th November	Australia
    
    Drivers -
    
    Brabham have confirmed Akihiko Nakaya for '92 - he comes with a reputed
    $8m of personal sponsorship! Van der Poele is talking about the second
    seat.
    
    Lotus thought to be shortly confirming Hakkinen & Herbert for '92.
    
    Benetton Jnr Team rumours gathering ground with Christian Fittipaldi
    hot favourite for one seat.
    
    Barone Rampanti looking to be in F1 in '93 with their own chassis, as
    are Pacific Racing
    
    
    Paul
    

    Rampanti seem to have some sort of Ford engine deal worked out n'all.

Does the Spanish GP at Barcelona coincide with the Olympics? I believe I read
some time ago that this was the plan.

	Matt.

	I'm sure this is probably reported somewhere else in here, but
	has everyone heard that Jean-Paul "Mr Impartiality" Ballestre
	is being replaced as president of FISA after 13 years? The new
	president is Englishman somethingorother Moseley (son of Oswald).
	I think this is from the end of the current season.

	JJ.

    
    Yes. It is reported elsewhere.
    
    Mark

	Oh well, there you go. At least it was short ;-)

	JJ.

    Yesterday the french news said that the new FISA President had taken
    his "first chair" after his election.
    	Does anyone know something about this man?????
    
    		DENIS.

    You will find plenty about Max Mosely in this conference (under F1)
    and in TIGEMS::RACERS.

	Brundle is confirmed as signed for Benetton, at a runmoured $1m.
	Walkinshaw has certainly been active, indeed ruthless, in sorting out 
	the driver situation. I look forward to seeing another British
	driver in what should be a top car next season. It will make a 
	refreshing change from whatisname.

	This leaves Piquet floudering. Although the brazilian has got
	a reputation for being lazy, and is doubtless not worth the sort
	of money he's been getting lately, he at least has managed to 
	score some wins in recent times. Only Ferrari of the top boys
	may need a driver, but where would Alesi go, and would Prost really
	take a year off?.

	-John

	

    Latest status of drivers etc
    
    
    Chassis	Engine		No1		No2		Rumours
    
    McLaren	Honda V12	Senna		Berger
    Tyrrell	??		Modena		
    Williams	Renault V10	Mansell		Patrese
    Brabham	Judd V10	??		Nakaya		vd Poele
    Footwork	Mugen V10	Suzuki
    Lotus	??		Hakinen		Herbert		Active ride
    Leyton H	??		Wendlinger	Gugelmin	
    Fondmetal	??						Blundell
    Benetton	Ford V8/V12	Brundle		Schumaker
    Dallara	Ferrari V12	Lehto				Capelli
    Minardi	??						
     (Benetton Jnr? Fittipaldi?)
    Ligier	Renault V10	Boutsen			        Prost
    								Piquet
    Ferrari	Ferrari V12	(Prost?)	Alesi		Andretti
    								Piquet
    Larousse	??	
    Jordan	Yamaha V12	de Cesaris			Zanardi
    
    
    Possibles
    
    Coloni
    Sauber
    Benetton Jnr - Minardi or Il Barone Rampante
    AGS/Larousse merger
    						
    
    
    

    Forgot -
    
    Larousse - Katayama signed as driver
    
    Paul

    
    
    There was a bit on teletext last night saying that "Il Barone Rampante"
    were not going to become "Benetton Jnr".
    
    Not that I know who "Il Barone Rampante" is you understand.....
    
    Richard.
    

    Il Barone Rampante are the F3000 team that has been running Zanardi
    this season. They are run by a guy called Cipriani who runs a rather
    nice hotel in Venice, and have a lot of the people who designed Italy's
    America's Cup yacht in the team. They have stated they plan to be in F1
    in the near future.
    
    Paul

If the posting on the Internet is right and Gachot is out of jail, where does
that leave Zanardi in the '92 season?

--PSW

    
    TV showed Gachot out of prison after his sentence was reduced on
    appeal.
    
    I've not heard that Zanardi's deal was dependant on Gachot, so we'll
    have to see if it is. The TV report said Gachot was hoping to drive 
    in the next GP for Jordan.
    
    Mark

    I'd say Zanardi is in to stay. Although a contract ain't worth much
    these days I'd say he probably has superior ($$$) backing. Jordan
    also made a comment recently about a problem he may have of
    getting sponsors to put their name on a car driven by a convicted
    felon.

    Is Zanardi on a signed contract ? I think I'd have my doubts that all
    the details have been resolved. Also, presumably E.J. has had contact
    with Gachot while he was in prison . If Gachot thinks he could be
    driving for Jordan then it but be treated as a distinct possibility .
    However Japan must be out of the question as Gachot can hardly be race
    fit or have lots of recent practice under his belt.
     But we know that Gachot is a reasonably good driver who can produce
    the goods . How good is Zanardi?
    
           Niall
    

    
    Well Zanardi has been pretty impressive in F3000 this year (only
    narrowly losing to the very consistent Fittapaldi). Whether this
    translates into excellent F1 form will remain to be seen, but he's
    worthy of a chance and like Dave said no doubt comes equipped with 
    a large bundle of zlotties!
    
    Gachot's misdemeanour may well of cost him his F1 career, but since
    there are a lot of skilled drivers who never get a chance at F1 despite
    not using illegal weapons on irate taxi drivers, he may well have to
    accept that that's life. No doubt he'll be able to scrape a
    Monaco-lifestyle supporting existence out of lesser forms of motor
    racing.
    
    Mark
    

    And there will always be Le Mans to reflect on.

    
    
    AGS have announced that they are bankrupt and won't be continuing.

    

    AGS ? Who they ??

    
    I think someone asked if anything was known about Nakaya in an earlier
    note.
    
    Well, he's been driving sportscars in Japan this year and, watching 
    a race last night, I saw him spin whilst under no pressure from 
    anyone else. 
    
    Obviously another fine Japanese driver in the mould of Nakajima!
    
    Mark

    Zanardi married the daughter of an Italian billionaire. I expect him to
    drive a F1 in 1992. 
    
    He's a good driver too ...

    The Ferrari seat rumours seem to have switched to Capelli. I watched
    the last CART race on Sunday night to see Michael Andretti win the
    title from the front, and I can recall no mention of F1 (although I was
    half asleep at the end having been up a 4.50am for the real world
    championship!) Equally there were no more crazy comments about
    Luyendyke (sp?) as a Ferrari possible.
    
    Murray reckoned that Capelli had signed a Ferrari contract last week,
    without a specification on which chassis the engine was going to be in.
    Also, the radio last night was predicting Prost's retirement
    announcement as Ferrari won't let him drive for anyone else next year.
    This would possibly open the way up for Piquet at Ligier if they
    *really* want him.
    
    Any more new Patrick? George? Anyone?
    
    Paul

	It's odds-on that Ivan Capelli will drive the Ferrari at Adelaide in
place of Prost, who will almost certainly stand down next year and start putting
together an all-French team for 1993. That's my prediction - not fact. The only
flaw is that Wendlinger was supposed to replace Capelli at Suzuka (which
happened) and mGugelmin at Adelaide but I guess Ivan wouldn't lose sleep over it.

	Did you notice that Schumacker totalled his first F1 tub in practice
and had to use Piquet's to qualify?? On the latter's performances this year, I
wouldn't let him within a country mile of MY car - SChumacker had comprehensively
blown him off again in Japan and he finnished 7th (I think) but well out of it.
Schumacker was 5th when the car stopped.

Colin

    
    Ah, Capelli is now confirmed as out of the LH for BOTH the final races.
    
    Mark

    Capelli stood down for both races in deference to Wendlinger's sack of
    Austrian schillings courtesy of Mercedes. He said he was going to be
    with the team tho' to support them, but I guess Ferrari might over ride
    that.
    
    Having followed Ivan at LH for the last few years, and spoken to quite
    a lot of people in the team, he is clearly well liked, and liked the
    team a lot himself. Its a shame that the impetus of 1989 couldn't be
    maintained in more than a few races.
    
    Paul

    It is said in todays Irish Times that Piquet was fired from Benneton.
    There was also speculation that Jordan may be talking to Prost! (most
    unlikely a mon avis).
     Eddie will announce his drivers for next season at the Irish Motor
    Show starting November 22. I'll be surprised if its not DeCesaris and
    Zanardi.
    
                Niall
    

    
    Watched another Japanese Group C race last night and sure enough
    Nakaya span again!!! (To be fair the track was running with water,
    but other drivers tried to make some allowance for the conditions).
    
    In fact, 'span' is something of an understatement. He, in fact, totally
    destroyed the car he was in! Which team is lumbered with him next
    season?
    
    Mark

    Ref -1
    
    Brabham have Nakaya-san, and, if Autosport is to be believed, Eirc van
    de Poele. Bit of a change from Brundle and Blundell!
    
    Other bits on '92....
    
    Capelli will drive for Dallara, or, if Prost jacks it in, Ferrari.
    
    Fast Eddie is rumoured to have signed that well known Irishman, Stefan
    O'Modena to partner De Cesaris.
    
    Tyrrell currently have no drivers or engine.
    
    Comas expects to be back in a Ligier next season.
    
    Il Barone Rampante are looking at a partner, as they have a Ford HB
    deal for next season but no chassis - Tyrrell a possibility.
    
    Possibles for Dallara if Capelli goes to Ferrari are PL Martini,
    Zanardi and Fittipaldi
    
    Paul

    Is there any news about which teams will be using which tyres next
    year ?  I did hear the Goodyear will not support any more teams, unless
    they are the sole distributors to F1.  Not using Goodyears seems to
    have been a BIG mistake for both Benetton and Tyrell in '91.
    
    
    Shaun

    re Prost
    
    Although Alain says he's surprised, the move made by Ferrari is very
    advantageous to him: it's them who broke the contract, it's them who'll
    have to pay.
    
    However there's a clause in the 90-page contract that says they won't
    pay if Prost finds a driving seat.
    
    Interesting thought: guess who's pushing for Prost to drive in 1992 ?
    (and save xx M$)
    
    On the other hand Prost might be interested in getting xx M$ and relax
    (translate start working on his 1993 team)             xx = 15 appr.

For Ferrari, it's a good thing in a way that they did fire Prost when they did.
It gave them time to line up a replacement driver for Adelaide.  There's no
way Prost would have gone out in that weather.

--PSW

    I wonder if Prost will (be able to) get another drive for next year -
    seems a little doubtful as it's all wrapped up in legal mumbo-jumbo.
    BTW, this was the first year since his rookie year (1980) that Prost
    has not won a G.P. - I call that an inexcusable waste of talent by
    Ferrari. I hope they have a lousy season next year....they deserve to.
    
    Colin

    I Heard that Prost had been fired by Ferrari.
    
    Grant

    
    Write only noter?
    
    Mark

    Err Yes thought I'd read/heard it in here :-)
    
    Grant

    Next season might see the pre-qual sessions disappear. When one looks
    at the teams readyto engage into the 1992 F1 championship at this point
    there are potential missing grid spaces.
    
    AGS gone, personnel left or has been fired
    Fondmetal about to stop F1
    Tyrrell left with no Honda engine and no money (Braun), deal with
    Stewart appears to have failed
    Leyton House, no money, no ILMOR engine unless Mercedes ...
    Coloni, bought by italian shoe maker, no too keen on spending $M
    Modena team no money, Lambo F1 team dismantled, except engine team
    
    Still there:
    
    McLaren-HondaV12
    Williams-Renault
    Ferrari
    Benetton-Ford
    Footwork-HondaV10
    Minardi-Lambo
    Scud Italia-Ferrari
    Middlebridge-Judd
    Jordan-Yamaha
    Ligier-Renault
    Larrousse-Lambo
    Lotus-?
    Barone Rampante-?
    
    The recent decision to cancel Sports Cars Championship will certainly
    cause a number of mfg to switch to F1 but will they be present in 1992 ?
                                    

It'll be interesting to see what happens to the teams that formerly used
Pirelli tyres now that Pirelli has left F1.  Benetton and Dallara were doing
quite well in spite of incurring extra pit stops because of their Pirelli tyres.
Benetton, in particular, may rejoin the top ranks next year.  Will they be
getting a V12 from Ford?

--PSW

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< CARS_UK conference >-
================================================================================
      Does anyone remember back in '86 when Keke Rosberg drove
    a Mclaren Mp4/2C with a different color scheme for one race
    only, the Portugese G.P., to be exact. Instead of looking like
    a pack of Marlboro regulars the car was painted Safron and White
    to resemble a pack of Marlboro Lights.
    
      I am building a scale model of this kit, and I was wondering if
    someone in the U.K. could save me alot of money on my phone bill.
    If someone could call Mclaren and ask for the ICI number (International
    Colour Index) for that particular color, I would be most grateful!
    
      I know that Mclaren will be very happy to accomadate a request like
    this, because I've done it before, but it cost ALOT of money for
    an overseas phone call. So if anyone could help me out......
    
    Also posted in 1991 season Topic
    
    Thanks,
    
   Kevin      

    Jordan are supposed to be quite happy with the way the new Yamaha 
    engine testing is going . Zanardi said "It goes like a train" . However
    the new Jordan car isn't built yet so they're testing with a modified
    version of the old car. The new car should be ready very soon.
    
            Niall 

>>    Zanardi said "It goes like a train" . However
    
    Not like a B.R. one I hope !
    
    Shaun. ;^)
    

TYRRELL have lost :

 - the Honda V10
 - Postlethwaite
 - Migeot
 - Braun ($$)

They are reported to have been approached by GM and offered the ISUZU V12
that had been tested earlier by Team LOTUS.

A possible deal with PAUL STEWART RACING recently failed.

Other rumours: Tom Walkinshaw would like TYRRELL to become the #2 FORD team. 
In that case TYRRELL would get the new FORD V12.

Now that Akagi is in jail for some time, all his business in under tight
scrutiny.

The ILMOR V10 engine has been saved in a last minute move by Mercedes.

The defunct LEYTON HOUSE team might well be re-acquired by previous 
owners: MARCH.

Since most LH personnel has left the boat, I wonder if there will be any 
future ...

FONDMETAL wheels. Sig Gabriele RUMI, the owner of FONDMETAL is not too
happy about F1. Return on investment is low but investment is high. So
we may not see them anymore in 1992.

A new car has been designed and built though: the FOMET, with plenty of
high tech fibers in it and room for a V12 (FONDMETAL were expecting to
get the YAMAHA engine, but that did not work). Mr RUMI is rumoured to be 
looking for takers. 

Larrousse is one of the F1 teams potentially interested in the FOMET 
chassis, in competition with the Lola.

    Mercedes top mgmt has supposedly voted against returning to F1. This
    should be confirmed publicly Monday. They will increase their
    involvement in the DTM. I'm sure they will also renew theirlinks with
    Sauber in order to reappear at races such as Le Mans.
    
    At least this means Mercedes silver arrows wont compete in the 1993 F1
    championship. 
    
    Question: what is Harvey Postlethwaite going to do in Stuttgart then ?

    Ferrari: is Prost still there (at least his soul) ?
    
    Piero Casucci, Ferrari Racing Team general manager has been dismissed
    (fired ?). Luca di Montezemolo takes over. Casucci was a FIAT man and
    he was not known as a Prost Supporter. Luca di Montezemolo was Ferrari
    team manger in the Lauda days.
    
    Will Prost return ?
    
    Luca's 1st move was to confirm Jean Alesi as Ferrari driver in 1992.

    Ligier: testing of the JS35R (1991 chassis with Renault V10) has
    started. New chassis JS37, designed by Frank Dernie and Gerard
    Ducarouge is scheduled for Feb 1992.
    
    Renault will have 5 people full time with Ligier. The engines will be
    handled by a 3rd party company called Mecachrome.

RE: 88, And others...

No, Prost won't drive for Ferrari this season.

Jean Alesi's partner for 1992 has been confirmed as Ivan Capelli. Both
he and his new team will be hoping for better results than of late.

So, that means it won't be Patrese. Which makes it unlikely that Prost
will be replacing him at Williams...

But nothing is certain.

Terry B.

    the grist whispers Alesi to leave Ferrari....so soon after the
    confirmation?
    
    		George Frost (who has been on the road of late)
    
    BTW Colin, met an old buddy of yours - George Wright...yammered about
    F1 nut from the old days.
    
    

    I don't think that even Ferrari management could be that crass.
    
    However, one man who hasn't had enough of the modena-men is PL Martini
    who is Lehto's new team mate at Scud Italia.
    
    Just Fast Eddie of the good seat to go....
    
    Paul

    Eddie said that the person he will sign finished higher up than De
    Cesaris in the final championchip standings  . The only one I can think 
    of off hand that fits the bill is Modena.
    
      Niall
    
    
                 

    At the moment Eddie seems to be choosing between Zanardi, de Cesaris
    and Modena, with Le Prof as a dark horse, and maybe even Del Boy who
    insists he's not given up on F1.
    
    I reckon the vacant seats are currently as follows:
    
    Tyrrell	- No engine, no drivers, up for sale?
    Leyton House- Engine if $ available, Gugelmin & Wendlinger pencilled in
    Minardi     - Lambo engines, no drivers
    Ligier      - Renault, perm 2 from Boutsen, Piquet, Comas (Le Prof?)
    Larousse	- Lambo engines, one seat free - Bernard?
    
    Cipriani/Barone Rampante ????
    
    Drivers with no firm seats (so to speak)
    
    Prost
    Modena
    Zanardi
    de Cesaris
    Blundell
    Pirro (going to Touring Cars)
    Morbidelli
    Comas
    Bernard
    Caffi
    Gachot
    Larini
    Grouillard
    Tarquini
    Barbazza
    Moreno
    Gugelmin
    Wendlinger
    Fittipaldi
    
    Still confused eh?
    
    Paul
    
    

    
    	Hi All !
    
    
    	Could somebody confirm me that Magic Nelson Piquet signed 
    	with LIGIER ?
    
    	Here in Italy I didn't heard anything about it.
    
    	Thanks in advanceand best regards.
    
    	Ciao,
    					Alessandro

    Last night on Ceefax it said that Mercedes Benz have decided not to go
    F1 even with thier withdrawal from sportscar racing. They will still be
    involved with touring cars.
    
    Garry

    
    
    rep -2
    
    
    It will be decided this week
    
    
    luc

    Piquet at Ligier (current assessment of both) seems bang on ; a
    once-great driver now one of the best-of-the rest (largely as a result
    of his car) with a once-great team who, as pointed out, have all the
    ingredients but still don't have the recipe for success (nice one that,
    eh?!).
    
    I remember the likes of Jacques Laffite and Patrick Depailler being top
    runners in the late 70s but, when I look up my results sheets, I find
    that Ligier "only" won 6 GPs (4 in the late 70s and 2 in the early 80s)
    so maybe not-so-great-after-all...!!
    
    It looks increasingly unlikely that Prost will race again next year
    what with the complicated litigation currently going on and the dearth
    of free seats at present. The only opportunity that makes sense to me
    is the Jordan seat, especially as Eddie is vehemently denying that he
    can afford Prosty!!
    
    Colin

    
    The season that Alan Jones won the championship, it started off looking
    as if Jacques Laffite would win the championship, but after a few races
    Ligier completely lost their way and could only scrap around in the
    lower placings.
    
    That was the only year that Ligier had a REALLY good car.
    
    Mark

    Piquet and Ligier met last Monday as planned. With no result.

    
    Ligier were never anything other than a middle of the field team except
    in '79 (or was it '80?). They had a brief renaisance a couple of years
    later with the Matra V12 engined car when Laffite was in contention for
    the championship right up until the last race, but that was more due to
    Laffite and the engine than the car.
    
    Mark
    
    PS It's good to see (from GTCC coverage) that Jacques hasn't lost his
    wicked sense of humour or his racing enthusiasm and will to win.

    Patrick,
    
    		what was the Ducarouge story?
    
    		George Frost

    Another question folks, has anybody heard of the results from the
    Peugeot presentation to their management for the F1 entry?
    
    		George Frost

    Ducarouge was the operations manager of the Ligier team. Someday after
    their honeymoon period they decided to point fingers. Ducarouge was
    fired on the spot (was it in 1981 ?). The Ligier team has always been a
    place for politics ...
    
    For me Ducarouge is a good operations manager and a sensible engineer.
    
    Ducarouge then found a job as a consultant with the Alfa Romeo team. He
    made some very good moves there. Then Alfa Romeo stopped F1.
    
    Gerard then worked for Lotus in the Senna and Peter Warr days.
    
    He finally moved to Larrousse in the Didier Calmels days.

    There's an item in the new AUTOWEEK about the testing session Al Unser
    jr had with Williams a week or so ago. Li'l Al described the Williams
    as the "most potent road racing car I've ever driven". He was quite
    impressed with the car and the team. By the third day he was turing in
    times that were equal to Patese in the same car. Patrese had quicker
    times overall (~.5 s) in the active suspension car, but Unser's times
    were marginally quicker in the normal car. He went on to say that he
    felt he could win races in F1.
    
    Many of us on this side of the pond believe that he and Michael
    Andretti will be in F1 in 1993. It would be interesting to see either
    of them in a competitive car.
    
    Paul
    

    
    I would love to see Michael and Al Jr. in F1 but if they can't get
    competitive rides they should stay put.  I really wonder how much luck
    they will have getting one of the top 6-8 seats.
    
    - Nate

I think both Little Al and Michael want to win both the championship and the
Indy 500 before they leave Indy cars for F1.  Both have half that plan
completed, having won the PPG championship.  If one of them wins the Indy 500
this coming year, I think it's almost a sure bet that he will go to F1 in 1993,
assuming a competitive ride can be arranged, of course.

--PSW

    I think both of you are right. Neither will try F1 in a second
    rate ride. But both are well connected. I believe Unser can get the
    Williams ride in '93. Andretti could have the Ferrari ride in '93. Both
    can bring good sponsorship $ and an American market with them.
    
    I believe that they will go to F1 whether they win the Indy 500 or not.
    It's a life goal for both but I don't think either would pass up a
    competitive opportunity in F1.
    
    In the meantime, I'm happy to see Capelli land the Ferrari seat. He's
    talented and deserving - and Italian. He'll do a good job, but I am not
    convinced he will have the kind of impact needed to bring Ferrari to
    the top again. Montezemolo (sp?) is a good strong manager who may be
    more important to Ferrari's success. We'll see. Who's leading the
    design team there for '92?
    
    Paul
    

    The results I got from the Estoril testing session are somewhat in
    contradiction with some replies above.
    
    McLaren (McNish and 2nd driver whose name escapes me at present),
    Benetton (Schumacher, Brundle) and Williams (Hill, Unser) were testing
    various things.
    
    No big surprise: Schumacher was fastest with times regularly in the
    1'12" bracket with Hill relatively close. Unser was slowest with times 
    around 1'15" (3sec slower).
    
    To Unser's credit one should note that he was discovering the car the
    circuit and F1. 

      Unser and Andretti will be chewed up and spit out
    if they ever try to race in an F1 event. IMO, the only reason
    they have a chance at all for a ride is because of the possibility
    that this will bring crossover fans from CART.
    
      F1 is the Pinnacle of motor sport to which most drivers aspire.
    
     KC An American F1 fan

    
    What's 495?
    
    Mark

      495 is a 3 lane highway that circles around Boston.
    
    KC

    Bits:
    
    - Fondmetal, the Italian maker of alloy wheels, will have 2 F1 cars in
      1992. Gabriele Tarquini will drive one. Second driver will be
      announced later.
    
      Fondmetal must have found some $$ recently. Their latest position was
      to stop F1.
    
    - Rumours on Carlo Patrucco (owner of Modena Team) considering the
      acquisition of GTO.
    
    - Ligier have definitely acquired the Reynard design documents. What
      for ? 
    
    - Other question mark: what will Harvey Postlethwaite do at Mercedes
      since they have voted against F1 ? design road cars ?     :-)

    GTO has been acquired by McLaren. barnard coming back?
    
    Leyton House looking for funds for next year, they are likely to have
    the Ilmor again, but on a customer basis. Wendlinger has an option, and
    the second member depends on funds. Gugelmin is on the list, and Al
    Unser was contacted but it all went flat.
    
    Minardi have around 12 drivers after their seats including de Cesaris,
    Moreno, Pirro, Naspetti, etc etc
    
    Fittipaldi has had a seat fitting and will go to Minardi if the
    Cipriani/Tyrrell deal falls through which is option No1. This deal
    includes Ford HB engines.
    
    Another option for Tyrrell is thought to be Pacific racing with V10
    Judds, or finally, Tyrrell themselves with Judd V8/Cosworth junk.
    
    Another report had Lotus as a possible Ford HB recipient, and look
    likely to retain Hakinnen & Herbert
    
    Likely Jordan men are Zanardi & Modena, plus Herbie Blash has gone from
    Brabham to Jordan after 20 years with the team.
    
    Paul

RE: .114

Well, the McLaren and Williams teams would seem to differ with your opinion,
since they apparently thought enough of Andretti and Unser to give them test
drives.  Cross-over fandom from CART couldn't possibly be a consideration for
those teams, especially given that there is no longer any F1 GP in the U.S.
While I don't think Senna would lose sleep over either of them, I don't think
they'd be among the back markers, either.  I think they have as much potential
to move up to F1 as any of the aspirants from F3000.

--PSW

    This weeks Autosport have a little artical with Sauber, who say that
    they will continue with there F1 plans for 1993.
    
    Pothelswait (sp?) is still designing the F1 car.
    
    Possible engine will be the Ilmor.
    
    Drivers would still be Schumacher and Wedlinger.
    
    It wouldn't be impossible that Mercedes might some day make Sauber a
    works team as they did in WSC after Sauber had achived some success.
    
    
    Steve

>>    GTO has been acquired by McLaren. barnard coming back?
    
    Do you mean the 'Guildford Technical Office', which was Ferrari ?
    
    If so, I heard that Lamborghini had bought it.
    No idea if there is any truth in this.
    
    It was heard from the owner of an Italian Restaurant in Guildford
    (who knows nothing about cars), but who used to chat to a couple of
    the Ferrari engineers who were regular customers of his...
    
    J.R.

    
    re.124
    
    On Guildfords "County Sound" radio sports program on Saturday they
    confirmed that McLaren had bought the GTO offices.
    
    steve
    

    Fast Eddie has confirmed Stefano Modena as his No 1 driver for next
    season, together with sponsorship from Barclay cigarettes. Corporate
    7Up sponsorship is gone, but I believe the local countries are clubbing
    together to continue the deal.
    
    Zanardi is likely to be No2.
    
    So endeth the Prof for Jordan rumours, marlboro wouldn't let him go
    now!
    
    Paul

    Spoke to someone at Leyton House this am and the man chasing the $$$$
    for next season is currently in Japan tieing down details of next
    seasons financing, and they are confident that they will be their next
    year. He also mentioned that investment over the last 3 years has been
    $35m. 
    
    Paul 

    
    It seems (as someone may have said) that GTO will be used for McLaren
    road car development.
    
    Another rumour, in MN, is that Barnard MAY be on his way back to
    Ferrari!
    
    Mark

    2 weeks ago a few teams were testing new suspensions, boxes, engines
    and drivers at the Estoril circuit. In the end it was Hill (Damon) who
    set fastest times with the Williams, just ahead of Schumacher in the
    Benetton.
    
    This week some teams are testing at the new Barcelona circuit. Nigel
    Mansell set fastest lap in the Williams (2sec slower than his GP
    qualifying time, not bad considering the cold track). Ferrari, Ligier, 
    Footwork ... are there too.
    
    Larrousse have been testing this year's Lola chassis modified to handle
    the Lambo V12 engine. Ukyo Katayama (still in Japan) and Eric Bernard
    (still recovering from his Suzuka accident, broken leg) being
    unavailable, Bertrand Gachot was the test driver. During the last week
    end he covered 54 laps of the 3.8km circuit at Le Castellet with the
    best lap in 1'06". The Larrousse factory is located near the circuit.   

    The french press is very hot on the Prost-Ligier possible future. They
    have sent a bunch of reporters to watch the gates of the Ligier factory
    at Magny-Cours.
    
    Alain Prost has been seen many times at Ligier during the last few days
    and speculations are constantly flowing: if Prost goes to Ligier, will
    it be as driver or as team manager ? 

    A bit from last week was that Nakaya - the prospective Brabham driver -
    was a doubtful starter for next season since he didn't have the right
    licence.
    
    Awful shame - money can't buy you everything afterall.
    
    Paul

    
    Wait and see...
    
    Mark

    Lotus have confirmed that Mike and Johnny (hakkinen & Herbert) will
    drive for them next season. They have also done a deal for Cosworth HB
    engines to run in post end of season Benetton spec - sounds pretty
    good.
    
    They are also working to produce a head up display system for the
    drivers, with the instrumentation linked to a display in the driver's
    helmet.
    
    Paul

    Keke was interwiewed on TV3 here in Finland in Friday. He said that the
    seats that he might be interested in F1 are already occupied; he is not
    interested in racing in Group C. Some teams in Indy series have
    contacted Keke but he doesn't seem to be too keen on driving ovals. 
    
    - Jyri -

    Il Barone Rampante (Cipriani) will not enter F1 this time. Instead they
    have taken the decision to stay in F3000 a 2nd year (they've started in
    1991).
    
    This means they have terminated the negotiations for buying TYRRELL.

1992 F1 list of entrants (17-dec-91)
------------------------------------

McLaren			Honda V12	Senna		Berger
Williams		Renault 	Mansell		Patrese
Ferrari			Ferrari		Alesi		Capelli
Benetton		Ford HB		Brundle		Schumacher
Larrousse		Lamborghini	Bernard		Katayama
Ligier			Renault		Boutsen		Comas
Scuderia Italia		Ferrari		Martini		Jarvilehto
Footwork		Honda V10	Alboreto	Suzuki
Fondmetal		Ford HB		Tarquini	Foitek
Minardi			Lamborghini	Morbidelli	?
Middlebridge		Judd V10	Van de Poele	Nakaya
Jordan			Yamaha		Modena		Zanardi ?
Lotus			Ford HB		Herbert		Hakkinen

Tyrrell ?
Leyton House ?
Coloni ?

    3 teams are uncertain about their future
    
    1. Middlebridge, ex-Brabham, have sold their factory to Yamaha. 80
       (eighty) people have left. Cheif designer Sergio Rinland has gone.
       Herbie Blash has moved to Yamaha. No money, no workers. Any buyer ?
    
    2. Leyton House. Still depends on Akari Akagi's trial in Japan. Tried
       to sell the whole thing to Penske, but did not reach agreement.
       Ilmor engine gone (might be transferred to Peter Sauber for 1993).
    
    3. Tyrrell. Various possible deals have collapsed (Il Barone Rampante,
       Peugeot, ...). No money, no engine. Latest price: 4.5M pounds.
    
         
    At the same time Mr Coloni is telling everyone that he will compete
    with 2 cars ... He might get the money (like he did this year with
    Chaves and the Port producers) but what car ?

    
    So at the current situation we have only 26 entrants for each race!
    What a sad day F1 would reach if all who entered actually raced, once
    that happens we'll be back to the late Turbo era when frequently there
    were less cars than grid places. The next step is to slip to the stage
    of the 500cc bikes when only 15 bikes compete.
    
    So what of all the possible big entries then eg; Peugeot, Nissan, a
    proper Porsche entrant etc.
    
    As for Tyrrell I think that they are dead this time, after all if they
    couldn't make it as the Honda 'B' team (lower class engines not
    withstanding) who'll be a buyer now?
    
    The only long term future must be a cheap supply of engines a la the
    days of the Ford Cosworth. That made all the teams equal and lessened
    the levels of trackside politics. Usually I look forward to a F1
    season, but 1992 fills me with some foreboding as a real messy year.
    
    Jules

    I believe that the current worldwide economic situation is the main
    reason the grids are weak. It's not just F1. In the USA CART, Trans-Am,
    IMSA, and others had problems. As did FIA Prototypes. No one wants to
    put up the kind of sponsorship money needed to field teams. Team
    managers spend their time scrambling for sponsors instead of running
    the team! So it isn't surprising. Until the economy recovers, all motor
    sport will suffer.
    
    Paul
    

There's a report in rec.autos.sport that Alessandro Nannini had another
operation on his reattached arm, with excellent results, and he now expects to
be in a F1 car by March 1992.  Sounds overly optimistic to me, but it would
be wonderful if it happens.

--PSW

    
    Sounds pretty unlikely to me, but, like you, I hope it does.
    
    However a report in MN had Alessandro quoted as saying it would not
    affect his TOURING CAR plans.
    
    Mark

    So Postlethwaite returns to Ferrari.  Given Barnard's quirks and
    Patrick Head's attachment to Williams, Harvey P was probably the best
    man available.  Now IF he can get the current design debugged and get a
    new car on line ASAP, and IF Sante Ghedini can control the politics . .
    .
    Steve Nichols, I assume, has been invited to pursue other
    opportunities.
    
    Painful, but needed housecleaning at Ferrari.
    
    Don

    Winter season (week before Xmas) testing at Paul Ricard.
    
    Ukyo Katayama has started his new career at Team Larrousse. After
    several laps he has been timed in around 1'06"1 which is approximately
    the times achieved by Gachot with the same car (1991 chassis with
    Lamborghini engine and race tyres) a few weeks earlier.
    Gerard Larrousse and the team are very happy with their new driver. It
    was Katayama's first laps in F1. He is the current F3000 champion in
    the Japanese series.
    
    The Williams-Renault teams were present too. Continuing with lots of
    new developments on the reactive suspension, new semi auto throttle
    coupled with an improved semi auto gearbox, new RS4 engine, etc ...
    One day after laps and laps, Damon Hill was given a set of qualifying
    tyres : 1'04" ...

    Team Line Up Latest
    
    McLaren	Honda V12	Senna		Berger
    Tyrrell	Ilmor V10	-		-
    Williams	Renault V10	Mansell	        Patrese
    Brabham	Judd V10	Van de Poele	Nakaya
    Footwork	Mugen V10	Alboreto	Suzuki
    Lotus	Ford V8HB	Hakkinen	Herbert
    Fondmetal	Ford V8HB	Tarquini	-
    Leyton House Ilmor V10	-		-
    Benetton	Ford V8HB	Brundle		Schumacher
    Scud Italia	Ferrari V12	Lehto		Martini
    Minardi	Lambo V12	Fittipaldi	-
    Ligier	Renault V10	Boutsen		-
    Ferrari	Ferrari V12	Alesi		Capelli
    Larrousse	Lambo V12	Katayama	-
    Andrea Moda	Judd V10	Caffi		-
    Jordan	Yamaha V12	Modena		-
    
    Options
    
    Tyrrell		Nobody knows
    Fondmetal		Blundell?
    Leyton House	Gugelmin, Wendlinger, Moreno
    Minardi		Morbidelli
    Ligier		Prost, Comas, piquet
    Larrousse		Bernard, Gachot
    Andrea Moda		Any takers out there???
    Jordan		Gugelmin, Zanardi
    
    Shaping up nicely for March 1st. Prediction -
    
    Senna to win his 4th championship, Berger to win a couple on merit,
    Mansell to say "what people don't appreciate" at least once per
    interview, Ferrari to make a bit of a comeback and Capelli to score a
    first win. 
    
    Paul

    
    Little Al Prost is testing the Ligier-Renault this weekend. If he likes
    it he'll go to Ligier as a driver (at least thats what the press are
    saying). What is true though is that if he does go there then Renault
    will be split between two teams and give Williams less time. Also if Le
    Prof does join in the all-French dance then his influence/tantrums will
    make sure that Ligier gets the best engines. 
    
    So we will have a dodgy old driver (Prost) in a terrible car (Ligier)
    with a supurb engine winning nothing, an erratic driver (Mansell) in a
    marvellous car (Williams) with a ropey 2nd rate engine (Renault with
    bits missing) winning once or twice, and a great (but boring) driver
    (Senna) in a great car with the best engine winning up to 10 races...
    
    Sad really.
    
    Jules
    
    

    Picquet is reported to have created his own F3000 team for '92.
    
    
    		George Frost

    Funny news on radio last night:
    
    Luciano Benetton, owner of the Benetton holding company, was reported
    to have been interviewed at his 'summer holiday' resort (Punta del
    Este, Uruguay) by argentinian newspaper 'Clarin' and declared the
    following:
    
    'oh by the way I'm happy to tell you that Alain Prost signed with us
    yesterday morning (Saturday Dec 4)'
    
    What he signed is unknown. Maybe he'll be wearing Benetton shirts ...
    
    Anyway the press has immediately jumped on the news 'Prost drives for
    Benetton, Brundle retires' .... 
    
    Prost, who is currently on vacation at a secret spot in Florida, has
    not sent any official comment. He has spoken with Guy Ligier. Guy has
    then called AFP (Agence France Press, news agency) and told them that
    Alain confirmed he had not signed anything related to driving a F1.
    
    Apparently Guy should know what is going on with Prost which probably
    means that they have a contract saying that Prost has an option with
    Ligier ...
    
    Other persistent rumours are about Prost moving to CART racing. Anyway,
    he's due back by mid January. 

    Sure Patrick, but Jean Alesi has a drive for '92.
    
    				GLF

    
    Apparently Tyrrell will get Ilmor engines next year!
    So once again the traditional no-hopers will limp on for another year,
    but as yet with no drivers nor sponsors, sad way for a once great name
    to go (see the same in Lotus, Brabham and possibly now Ferrari)
    
    			**********************
    
    Does anyone know why in this years Autocourse Senna did not do the
    foreward as traditionally the new World Champion does. This time it was
    done by the President of Honda Racing. After all Autocourse gave Senna
    their No.1 spot in their top 10 drivers.

>>    Does anyone know why in this years Autocourse Senna did not do the
>>    foreward as traditionally the new World Champion does. This time it was
>>    done by the President of Honda Racing. After all Autocourse gave Senna
    
    Perhaps they felt Honda had more to do with the championship...
    
    J.R.

    More likely that Senna is bored with doing the forward since he has 
    done it before.  He probably "delegated" the honor to the Pres. of 
    Honda Racing.
    
    That's my guess

    Latest crazy scenario -
    
    Prost to Benetton, Schumacher to Ferrari, Alesi to Jordan
    
    This was started by a Benetton family member in Uraguay but none of the
    main protagonists (eg Prost's manager, Tom Walkinshaw etc) claim to
    know anything about it!
    
    Other bits -
    
    Brabham new boy Nakaya still hasn't got a super licence
    
    Piquet supposedly on standby for Footwork as they have some contractual
    difficults (as Ayrton would say) with Alboreto
    
    TWR racing to build chassis for Fomet according to Fomet but not TWR!
    Also, Chiesa confirmed as No 2 to Tarquini
    
    MVS take interest in Larrousse, Gachot favourite for second seat
    
    Moda Formula will be using an updated Coloni - 1989 vintage!
    
    Leyton House virtually up and running again, Wendlinger very likely,
    lots of other talking, Del Boy a possibility if some British sponsor
    can come up with the $$$
    
    McLaren possibly starting with a new semi-auto box this year.
    
    Tyrrell talking to: de Cesaris, Gachot, Blundell, Pirro, Gugelmin &
    Morbidelli
    
    7 weeks and counting........
    
    
    Paul

The report in the Vogon News Service today said that Leyton House are indeed
back up and running, will continue to have Ilmor V10 engines, and have reverted
back to the name March.

--PSW

    Team Larrousse were in serious trouble. Japanese Mr Doi's holding
    company did not want to supply all the team's running costs for 1992.
    Gerard Larrousse thus decided to declare bankruptcy.
    
    Then, PRIMWEST, a swiss venture capital company who already own:
    
    	- AUTOMOBILES DE LA CHAPELLE
    	- AUTOMOBILES VENTURI
    
    came to rescue. As a result, Team Larrousse now belongs to :
    
    	- Gerard Larrousse (minority)
    	- Doi group (1/3)
    	- Primwest (2/3)
    
    Larrousse had already parted from buying chassis from LOLA cars and had
    decided to buy the chassis originally built for team Fondmetal by the
    Fomet company in the UK. As of now FOMET become VENTURI UK, without any
    change. Chief designer Robin Herd remains. The 'Larrousse' F1 will be
    entered as VENTURI-LAMBORGHINI. It will use the upgraded LAMBO V12 engine.
    
    This is the 1st in a series of actions that are intended to build an
    image for VENTURI. The owners of VENTURI (PRIMWEST) have decided to
    supply the funds. The next step (probably) will see a Euro series of
    races for a specially designed VENTURI with a tubular chassis and a 450
    bhp engine (1993 ?).

    Re a few back
    
    	I bet Honda decided to "take over" the editorial in Autocourse to
    prevent any further manic outbursts from the best driver with the
    biggest mouth!!
    
    Re a few more back
    
    	Lotus, by all accounts, appear to be on the up. Last year, with one
    very new driver and one "part-timer", they put up some very creditable
    performances. They now have a good team together and can now start to
    build on good, strong foundations. I have no illusions that they will
    win races this year but would be very surprised if they didn't start to
    finish consistently in the top 6 with a win possible next year.
    
    Colin

    
    Gianni Morbidelli will drive Minardi/Lamborghini in 1992.
    
    Some news about Nelson Piquet ?
    						Alex

    and some news about Prost?
    

RE: -.1

Prost will try the Ligier next week and give his considered opinion on
the potential of the team. He said that if the time for a French team had come
then he would do a review of it before taking a decision. In the newspaper he
came across as less than excited.

Steve

    Nelson Piquet officially announced his retirement from Formula One
    motor racing today, citing "lack of opportunity to win the World
    Championship" as the reason. Who's leg does he think he is pulling??
    
    Piquet is a three-times World Champion : 1981 and 1983 in
    Brabham-Cosworths and 1987 in a Williams-Honda. However, just to put
    this in perspective a little, in '81 he beat Reutemann by a single
    point (and Prost also had three wins), in '83 he beat Prost by 2 points
    (taking three wins to Prost's four and Arnoux's three) and in '87, of
    course, he beat Mansell by 12 points after the Brit did not start the
    last two events of the year following his Suzuka practice shunt
    (winning three races to Mansell's six).
    
    In my opinion, although a three-times Champ., he is a "worthy" and not
    a "great" and has had a certain amount of good fortune in being in the
    right place at the right time. For the last four seasons, his
    performance, except for one or two occasions, has been decidedly
    lack-lustre.
    
    I, for one, be not be sorry to see him go, much preferring the youth
    and aggression of a Schumacker, Wendlinger, Hakinnen or Herbert, to
    name but a few.
    
    Colin
    

    According to this morning's paper, Nelson Piquet has officially
    announced his retirement from F1. Obviously he couldn't wait for le
    Prof to make up his mind about Ligier, or maybe Alain gave him a call
    with some priviledged info ;-)
    
    It seems very sad that a driver of Piquet's class and record should
    have to retire when far less talented drivers like Nakaya, van der
    Poele, Modena et al get seats. I was never a big Piquet fan, his points
    accumulation style is not for me, but he was fast, and could be funny,
    and should still have a seat.
    
    There is only one thing I cannot forgive him for, and that is his two
    season spell at Lotus, draining cash and putting virtually nothing
    back. My long love affair with Lotus was nearly ended for good when he
    arrived.
    
    For all that though, I'll still miss him.
    
    Paul 

    
    The record books will show Piquet as a great driver, after all 3 world
    championships must be the mark of such a person, but in my opinion (as
    in .163) he was 'jammy'. Although on his day he was good he was like
    the advertiment 'not that good'. Perhaps his personality and mood was
    very readable in the style in which he drove, his boredom at Lotus was
    reflected in a straggeringly low quality of drive and result, whilst
    enthusiasm at Brabham resulted in one flukey championship and one
    justified one. Yet his time at Williams showed the mercurial side of
    the man as he entered complete paranoia with the idea that Mansell was
    No.1 favorite son (something the latter accused Piquet of once he also
    began to slip).
    
    Perhaps his best drives came when winning two in a row for a dodgy
    Benelton a couple of years ago, and his most amusing...
    Well who can forget the kicking and punching routine against Elesio
    Salazar when the latter pushed Piquet at Hockenheim (?) in the mid
    1980's.
    
    Piquet was a nice guy, but his departure signals I belive a major diver
    reshuffle to come in the shape of the new replacing the old. Prost will
    be the next to go followed by Mansell, Patrese and soon after a rather
    bored Senna (hes already said that hes thinking about retiring before
    the 'Senna is God' club leap down my throat - the Honda personnel have
    been told the same thing). 
    
    Jules

Some of us are old enough to remember when Piquet was an exciting young 
driver!

In his later, more mature years I liken his style to Prost. (That should 
keep this topic going until the 1st '92 race!).

/Dave.

	Back when Piquet won the Championship in 81 & 83 there was 
	something we don't get a lot of nowadays - competition.
	As such I think he should be given a good rating, not a bad
	one. Unfortunately he never came across very well in interviews
	and the like, and in latter years has been very lethargic unless
	the opportunity of a win showed itself. But he still managed to
	grasp the opportunity when it came.
	
	Most of Prost and Sennas wins have been obtained from a dominant
	car situation where there was just one other to beat, a far cry 
	from the days when there might be six or more potential winners.

	To my mind the most meritorious World Championship in the years
	that it's been possible to follow it on TV (since 78) was 
	undoubtedly Keke Rosberg and he only scored one win. His
	car was pretty well always blown away by the opposition but he
	stuck to it amazingly well despite this. He also started the 
	season as a distinct No 2 driver, which in those days tended
	to be a considerable disadvantage, but did have a bit of luck
	in that area at least.

	-John

	As far as I know there are no rule changes effective this
	coming season. However it seems to me that it's time we had
	some. For years now the championship has been dominated by 
	big money teams, to the detriment of the level of competition
	and each year it seems to get worse. 

	The return to N/A engines was meant to cut costs, and at first
	a lot of new teams seemed likely to be coming in but now they're
	changing their minds, partly from lack of cash, but also
	because it seems that if you don't have the best engine you
	don't have much chance - just as it was in turbo days.

	Here are two simple changes, often suggested in the past, which
	I think would be appropriate at this time because they will
	cut costs and increase competition.

	1. Tyres - require that tyres be groooved (ie. treaded). This
	has a two edged effect inasmuch as there will be less rubber
	in contact with the road and because of the treading the very 
	soft compounds can't be used since they would collapse. At the 
	same time cars should be required to start the race on the same
	tyres that they qualified on, thus cutting the unnecessary cost
	of qualifying rubber.

	2. Fuel. All cars to run on the same "pump" fuel, which in these
	days would be 2* unleaded. At present fuel is (I think) 100 octane
	max but all manner of jungle juice concoctions can be added and
	it seems are now responsible for perhaps 100bhp of the top engines
	output.

	Both these suggestions would seem to be good for the sports image,
	cut costs and persuade manufacturers to investigate developments
	which might rub off onto road cars. Slick tyres don't have any
	applicability to road cars and we're currently removing additives 
	from petrol not adding them.

	-John

    I'm not so sure about the tyres, but then again that is something that
    could be tossed around at great lenght. I DO seriously think that pump
    fuel is the way to go. I have in the past months read at some length
    about about racing fuel. A very simple example of how potent it is, was
    given. simply pour the same amount of pump fuel and racing fuel into a
    plastic beaker. The racing fuel disolved the cup.
    
    With all the green issues at the moment I don't know how fuel companies
    and teams can use this stuff and still have a clear concience.
    
    Its more than time for that. Many other forms of national motor sport
    are now obliged to use unleaded fuel. Even Shell racing fuel that was
    legal in '90 was illegal last year and many people were fined by the
    racmsa for illegal fuel.
    
    
    Garry
    

    
    I agree. I personally like the idea of a "Formula Libre" which F1 is.
    But it makes no sense, especially in a tough economic like this. I
    think there should be pump gas (well controlled, not like now) and
    there should be limits on tire width, not tread. Say, 15" wide in read,
    and 12" in front. And do away with qualies. As suggested, make the
    teams start on the tires they qualified with.
    
    It wouldn't hurt to see the wing sizes reduced too.
    
    Paul
    

    
    The next step is to have all the cars lined up and when the whistle
    blows all the drivers run to their cars...
    
    

    
    
    Last news......
    
    
    
    Magic Nelson Piquet will not leave the races !!!!!
    
    					Alex ( really happy !!!!! )

....provided that the "right" drive comes along.

    So dear old Nelson will do a 'Nige' a la last year. The difference is
    that he dosn't really have the same draw as Mansell and since all the
    good drives have gone (except maybe Jordan) the question is academic
    anyway. I think he is satisfying his own ego in attempting to look as
    is he's going when HE wants to go and not when the rest of us (and the
    teams) get bored with him.
    
    Just for the record, here are the stats of Piquets career compared to
    his greatest rival over the era Prost. Also I've put in Mansell and
    Senna.
    
    
    DRIVER	RACES CHAMPS 1sts 2nds 3rds 4ths 5ths 6ths POLE FAST PTS.
    ------	----- ------ ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
    Piquet	 204	3     23   20   17   18   15    7   24   23  485.5
    Prost        184    3     44   32   18    9    5    7   20   35  699.5
    Senna        126    3     33   20   13    4    4    3   60   17  491
    Mansell      165    -     21   14   11    7    6    9   17   22  361
    
    
    
    
    

    I don't know what Piquet will do. Prost has come back from Florida
    holidays one week earlier than planned. His first visit was for Ligier
    but he has decided that he will let Boutsen do the debugging of the new
    JS37.
    
    (The new LIGIER JS37 has been designed by Frank DERNIE. It is described
    as very small, very light and very simple)
    
    Ligier have reserved the Circuit Paul Ricard for their exclusive use
    for the 24-26 Jan period. They will also be present on other days with
    the Williams team. Prost will most probably test drive the JS37 behind
    closed doors around the 24th.  

    	I agree with John on both counts - tyres and fuel. However, I read
    an article a while ago by Leo Meher of Goodyear who says that, although
    Goodyear have a monopoly next year, they may well retain qualifying
    tyres as it is through this development that Goodyear get their payback
    in technical terms. Although road cars do not use slicks or stickies,
    there are technical throwbacks to "improve the breed". I also like the
    idea of reducing tyre widths and getting these trams a little sideways
    now and again - oh for the days of the beautifully executed
    four-wheel-drifts, powering the car through gently on the throttle...
    
    	I can see no reason why F1 engines cannot be made to run on "pump
    fuel" and agree that it is the way to go in the future. 
    
    	Finally, I am still glad to see Piquet go - and I really can't see
    him staying on anywhere 'cos there's nowhere to stay...
    
    Colin

    
    While reducing the tyre widths and/or introducing treaded tyres and
    forcing the teams to use unleaded pump fuel, may well slow the cars
    down I can't see it reducing the costs for the smaller teams by much.
    
    The scrapping of the Turbos was supposed to reduce the cost to the
    teams and slow down the cars, but the cars are lapping faster and
    costing more now.
    
    Treaded tyres will offer just as great a scope for investing money in
    an attempt to make a 'better' tyre (although you may get a greater
    transfer to road car technology) and the same old front runners will
    lead.
    
    If you want to level things up you need to introduce a SINGLE type of
    tyre and restrict the amount of air or fuel that an engine can consume. 
    I doubt either of these measures would be popular with F1 sponsors, teams 
    or drivers, so they'll never come about, but from the racing point of 
    view they COULD make a great deal of difference.
    
    Mark

RE: reducing F1 costs

Restrictions on exotic fuels ought to be put in place for safety reasons (the
health of the pit crews, drivers, and spectators), if for no other reason.
The whole reason why F1 went from methanol fuel to gasoline in the first place
was so that fuel companies could more effectively market their F1 relationships.
Well, what they're putting in F1 cars these days hardly resembles anything you
can get from a regular pump.  They ought to go back to regular unleaded
petrol, or, to be even more "green", go way back to methanol.

Regarding other cost-reduction and team-levelling ideas, it all depends on
what F1 is supposed to be all about.  If the Championship is supposed to be
won solely on the basis of a driver's skill, then it ought to be run like the
IROC, with all drivers using the same type of car with identical set-ups.
F1 currently is supposed to be a no holds-barred, spare-no-expense competition
for constructors as well as drivers.  What rules there are have traditionally
been applied for safety reasons, not to reduce costs or level the playing
field (there are exceptions, such as the switch to F2 engine specs in the '50s).
The ban on turbos seems to have totally backfired.  It was intended to reduce
both speeds (in the interest of safety) and costs.  It has done neither--costs
are up and so are speeds.  CART and IMSA seem to have been far more successful
than FISA recently at coming up with formulae that allow a wide variety of
car and engine types to race together competitively at reasonable costs.

I'd prefer F1 stay more or less like it is now, only get rid of the exotic
fuels and allow turbocharging and supercharging (at an appropriate
cylinder capacity penalty--see IMSA or CART for reasonable formulae).

--PSW

--PSW

RE: Piquet.

According to reports, he is NOT retiring.

Apparently he was mis-quoted. Or he's changed his mind. Depends
on your point of view or which bulletin you read/listen to.

His wife(!) is on record as saying that if he can find a decent drive
then he will race.

Question: Which seat left is good enough?

Terry.

Saw Prost driving the Ligier on the box last night. He lapped within 1 second
of Patrese, and expressed himself pleased with the potential of the new car. He
has a few days to decide whether to sign - I think that the cutoff date for the
new F1 season is Feb-5?

In the pits afterwards, Prost seemed relaxed and was happily signing autographs
- I haven't seen him looking so at ease on camera for a loooong time...

Steve

The french television LA5 had exclusive F1 coverage last year and I believe
were to continue with the coming season.

Now that the future of LA5 is up in the air has anyone heard what happens to
the F1 coverage ? Will TF1 get it back ?

Zayed

    Paul Ricard testing (last Fri-Sun)
    
    - Patrese		Williams-R	1'02"98
    - Hill		Williams-R	1'03"24
    - Brundle  		Benetton-F	1'04"40
    - Boutsen		Ligier-R	1'04"59
    - Prost		Ligier-R	1'04"78
    - Morbidelli        Minardi-L	1'04"98
    - Montermini	Venturi-L	1'05"93
    - Fittipaldi	Minardi-L	1'06"21
    
    Type of suspension, tyres, fuel load UNKNOWN. Williams have tested the
    auto reactive suspension. Minardi have tested the new gearbox (built by
    Morbidelli's father company).
    
    The Ligier was rolled out of the Magny-Cours factory on Thursday. I
    consider this 1st test session as very positive. They had very few
    and very minor problems. Prost reported he was badly seated, some
    adjustments will be necessary for the next test session planned for the
    end of this week.
    
    Young Italian Montermini is 1st on Gerard Larrousse's priority list in
    front of Bertrand Gachot and Eric Bernard. Funding problem again. 		

    Latest on Drivers.....
    
    
    Free seats	Tyrrell	 - 2 (Gugelmin & Perry McCarthy possibles)
    		L/House  - 2 (Wendlinger possible)
    		Jordan	 - 1 (Zanardi almost certain)
    		Venturi	 - 1 (Montermini, Bernard, Gachot possibles)
    		Andrea M - 1 (Hattori thought to have signed)
    		Ligier	 - 1 (Prost or Comas)
    
    Quote from Prost:
    
    "Frank (Williams) has done everything to seperate himself from Mansell
    and hire me. The only thing he was arranging was to transfer Nigel to
    Ferrari. This was impossible; Ferrari didn't want it."
    
    Paul

    Was it not that Mansell didn't want to go to ferrari and Frank
    Williams,at the risk of getting Renault all upset, told them to 
    get stuffed as far as Prost was concerned. I maybe got that a bit wrong
    but I feel sure that I read that somewhere like autosport. 
    
     Garry

    Prost obviously thinks otherwise.....
    
    
    But then he would wouldn't he!
    
    Paul

    
    Alain Prost is an utter prat, really he is!
    
    He is simply attempting to cause dissention in the ranks of Williams
    and thus boost his chances by convincing Renault that Williams are not
    in accord and not French enough. If Prost was really in with a chance
    with Williams why has he gone (or is going) to a rag-tag team like 
    Ligier??
    
    Events will prove me wrong of course.
    
    Pity that the Mega-Move that was on the cards (in the Italian papers
    anyway) didn't happen ...
    
    Prost to Williams, Patrese to Ferrari, Berger to Williams , Mansell to
    McLaren!
    
    Jules

    I suppose that there could some truth in that , I'm sure that I read
    that about mansell and williams some time ago. Does sound like a bit of
    jib to liven things up though.  
    
    I'm Just off to get autosport, wonder what sillyness they print about
    it if anything....
    
    
     Garry

RE: .186

That's how I remember it.  Renault proposed the idea of Prost as a driver to
Frank Williams, and Frank told them that he and he alone will select who drives
for his team.

--PSW

	... and Renault and Renault alone will decide who gets 
	the good engines!

	-John

    
    re -1
    
    The Prost consortium of course!

re .188

I would say that if prost's intention was to cause dissention in an oppostion
team's ranks that would make him anything but a pratt!

Tony.

	Does anybody know anything of the Ford V12, ie have Benetton
	got them yet or when will they get them?.

	BBC TVs Tommorows World is going to be including regular reports
	on the progress of Jordan this year, or so they said last week.
	Will probably prove to be somewhat superficial I expect. The new
	car appeared in Green/White livery which is very good for their
	prospects.

	A swift item on the news this morning said that F Williams has 
	told N Mansell to lose some weight. Weird, perhaps there's a
	'weight' clause in the contract.

	-John

    The Ford V12 is due to run no later than mid-year, but is unlikely to
    race this year, as you can't switch engines mid season at retain points
    for the constructors cup (I think)
    
    Paul 

>	A swift item on the news this morning said that F Williams has 
>	told N Mansell to lose some weight. Weird, perhaps there's a
>	'weight' clause in the contract.
    
    Nige said sometime ago that was was wintering in Florida to lose weight
    and keep fit.  He claimed something around being happy eating salads 
    in warm weather as opposed to very calorific food while freezing on the IOM.

    RE. .-2
    
    >Frank Williams has told Nigel Mansell to lose some weight....
    
    According to Autosport, Frank would have preferred 'Nige' to stay in
    the UK , for quick call ups for track tests etc. 
    
    He seems a little concerned that Nige is in Florida for the Winter (and
    who blames him), while Mr Patrese and Hill do the testing. He seems to
    imply that Mansell wil probably be 'fitter' for being in Florida rather
    than stuck on an Isle Of Man hillside, but we will have to wait and see
    when he turns up at Kyalami.
    
    I seem to recall that last season Senna did no Winter testing, turned
    up for the 1991 season and won the first 4 races, although he would be
    the first to admit 'rather fortunately'.
    
    Rob

RE: .195

I don't think FISA place any restrictions on switching engines in mid-season.
Footwork dumped the Porsche V12 for the Ford/Cosworth DFR in the middle of
last season, and Coloni switched from Subaru to the DFR the season before that.
Granted, neither were in contention for the constructor's championship at the
time.

--PSW

    Anyone know the whereabouts of Sergio Rinland or Enrique Scalabroni?
    
    How about George Ryton?  Gordon Kimble?  Tim Wright?
    
    The scramble for seats is very interesting, but there's also a lot of
    F1 design talent floating around.
    
    And what's the background of the new man at Tyrrell?
    
    Don

    A rumour that PROST has broken the lap record at LE Castellet while
    testing the Ligier. I'm not sure how relevant this is coz I'm not sure
    who held the previous record and how long ago it was set.
    
    Could be the factor that determines if Prost joins Ligier ?
    
    

    That according to ceefax last night was true, I don't know if that is
    really worthy of note but the time quoted was 1'2".xx. I don't know if
    that is significantly faster that the old record or for that matter
    what set the old record. It also said that Prost was still very much
    uncommited, not wishing to comment.
    
    
    

    Quote from Ceefax... 28-Jan.
    
    "Alain Prost has fuelled speculation that he will be joining Ligier by
    predicting he could win races in their new car.
    
    Prost tested the Renault-powered car for the second time in France and
    broke the Paul Ricard lap record with a time of 1 min 2.7 secs.
    
    "He said the performance of the car was a big surprise and he thought
    he could win races in it," said Ligier designer Frank Dernie.
    
    Prost has until February 5 to decide whether to join the team"
    
    

    
    Something on the news this a.m. about Brabham.
    
    Unable to sign some Japanese driver that they wanted 'cos he was
    refused a licence by FISA, Brabham have now signed an Italian female
    driver instead. 
    
    Didn't catch the name of either the Japanese or Italian
    
    Rich
    

    
    Re .203
    
    The Italian Driver is Giovanni Amati (Sp?).
    
    She is a regular European middle position F3000 driver.
    
    Her best placing is a 7th this year.
    
    She must have some sizeable Pot of money coming with her, when you
    think that drivers like Hill, Blundell, Naspetti dont have F1 drives!
    
    IMHO money is becoming so important these days in F1 and world recesion
    that we may well only have 8 or 10 'real' drivers all the rest being
    uncompetitive also runs who have rich dadies!
    
    Steve

	It's not that surprising that the Ligier JS37 can match the
	sort of times Williams are showing since it's virtually an
	FW14 clone.

	Designed by ex Williams man Frank Dernie, and looking very 
	much like the FW14 apart from a few aerodynamic mods, it
	has of course the same engine but not the same gearbox.

	It probably won't be the only FW14 copy around next year
	either on the "if you can't beat 'em join 'em principle".

	I would think it extremely likely that Prost will sign for
	Ligier. Apart from providing a competitive car with potential
	it may also offer the chance of eventual team management,
	which he's known to be interested in for post driving days (which
	can't be far off).

	-John

RE: .205

>    IMHO money is becoming so important these days in F1 and world recesion
>    that we may well only have 8 or 10 'real' drivers all the rest being
>    uncompetitive also runs who have rich dadies!

You mean F1 will be going back to its roots in the 1950s and before, when it
was about an equal mix of top drivers and rich playboys who like to drive fast
cars.

--PSW

    We should know better by end of next week. The deadline for
    registration for the 1992 F1 championship is Friday 7th Feb.

    Possible options for Tyrrell are thought to be Gugelmin (with $2m from
    Brazil) and Comas (with ??FF from Elf).
    
    Also, Lola are to have a factory team in F1 in 1993, the first time
    they have ever done this. A possible driver is Andretti.
    
    Paul

    Has the 1992 schedule been posted here yet ?
    
    If not can someone with the info enter it.
    
    Much appreciated.
    
    Roy

F1-

Mar  1		Kyalami				South Africa		
Mar 22  	Mexico City			Mexico			
Apr  5  	Interlagos			Brazil			
May  3		Barcelona			Spain			
May 17		Imola				San Marino		
May 31		Monte Carlo			Monaco			 
Jun 14 		Montreal			Canada			
Jul  5		Magny Cours			France			
Jul 12		Silverstone			England			
Jul 26		Hockenheim			Germany			
Aug 16		Budapest			Hungary			
Aug 30		Spa				Belgium			
Sep 13 		Monza				Italy			
Sep 27		Estoril				Portugal		
Oct 18		Suzuka				Japan			
Nov  1		Adelaide			Australia		

    From Vogon this am...
    
    EuroSport have signed a 5 year deal with FOCA to cover all GP practice
    sessions and races. Didn't mention the excellent Inside Track tho'
    which is a FOCA production.
    
    Paul

    before Eurosport went off the air and came back again they did have the
    same deal. They covered the practice live as well of the race. Inside
    track is shown, repeatedly on Screensport.
    
    Garry

    How much you wanna bet that BBC coverage will be better 8-)

	Spot on Jordan last night was interesting. We were told
	about the revised front end aerodynamics and a new gearbox
	selection mechanism designed to cut change times in half
	from a quarter to eighth of a second. No technical details
	though.

	Track test sequences showed the car cornering at considerable
	speed but rock steady, devouring the straight with exactly the
	right sort of V12 noises and with lightening quick gearchanges
	too. It looks to be quick, very quick indeed. Now if they do save
	on gearchanges and there are 30 up changes per lap that's 3.75
	more seconds of applied power at crucial points, a significant
	amount.

	Also it was possible to detect an air of very considerable
	confidence amongst the team, as if they knew they had something
	special brewing.

	It's off for testing in Spain now where we'll see how it matches
	up to the opposition, my guess would be extremely well. The 
	biggest problem the car is likely to have next season would 
	appear to be reliability since whilst the Yamaha has come on
	enormously lately it still seems a bit fragile.

	-John

Let's hope Yamaha has learned something since their last outing with Zakspeed.
The car is very good, as we know from last season's performance.  It would be
a shame if it gets done in by engine reliability problems.

--PSW

    Yamaha had a reasonably successful season in 1991 with Brabham, picking
    up some points and being pretty quick. By the end of the year they were
    not far off the pace. Zakspeed is history!
    
    Paul

RE: .218

That's right.  I forgot Brabham were using Yamaha engines last year.

--PSW

    Tyrrell have signed Olivier Grouillard for '92. No news on the #2 seat.
    Looks a bit of a loadsamoney deal again.
    
    Paul

    1992 F1 teams championship registration was closed Friday. No surprise
    16 teams of 2 cars each. AGS and Modena Team have disappeared. Leyton
    House becomes March as expected. Larrousse becomes Venturi-Larrousse,
    Coloni becomes Andrea Moda Racing, ...
    
    The deadline for drivers registration has been moved to Wed 5th Feb but
    that does not mean anything since team managers can always put dummy
    names. Only in Kyalami should we know who drives what.

    Wonder if they'll keep pre-qual with only two cars to be eliminated,
    hardly seems worth the effort.
    
    Paul

    Any early news out of Estoril folks?
    
    Snippet that I picked up was that Prost was there, will definitely test
    the Ligier, is with his old buddy Jabouille and that he has lawyers around
    him. Speculation on La Cinq is that contracts are being either drafted
    or checked.

	The Yamaha deal is very good for Jordan, the engine did show
	well last year in an ungainly chassis and 'Fast Eddie' was in
	like a shot to get it. 

	You have to go back ten years to the last time it was possible
	to do well with a 'customer' engine, since then it's been the
	'works' teams all the way. Just look how badly Minardi (Ferrari)
	and Tyrrell (Honda) did last year, hardly any better than when
	they were running the old Cosworth V8.

	Just why Yamaha want to win in F1 I don't know (They make bikes
	don't they). But given that they do, and if they see their engine
	in a top class chassis, they've most likely got the resources
	to produce a winner. It's a smart move by Jordan.

	-John

    
    Isn't there some kind of link between Yamaha and Toyota?
    
    Mark

    Er, um... Japan perhaps.

    
    Get on with some work, Page.
    
    Mark

    
    Maybe Yamaha want to just 'have a go' at Honda.
    
    The people at Honda are a little puzzled as well.
    
    Jules

    
    Yamaha may not build cars, but they do build automobile engines. 
    Though they are a limited run, the Taurus SHO (available in the States)
    is powered by a 6 cylinder 5-valve engine manufactured by Yamaha.  It's
    a very potent piece.
    
    Yamaha manufactures all sorts of stuff besides motorcycles.  That they
    want to establish themselves as a leader in performance and technology
    doesn't surprise me in the least.  Success in F1 would be that image
    builder.
    
    - Nate

Nice outboard motors, generators, bike engines...

Closer links with Ford than Honda as far as I recollect.

    Yamaha do manufacture the high output engine in the Taurus
    SHO...perhaps they are planning to do more of this in other cars and
    are hoping for a few wins to add to the excitement.

    Still on a Yamaha theme...
    
    Jordan have signed Gugelmin as No2 to Modena.
    
    L House expect to announce drivers tomorrow (Weds) with Tyrrell the day
    after.
    
    Sauber have confirmed a '93 F1 team with Schumacher and Wendlinger
    stated as likely drivers.
    
    Paul

    I believe the Yamaha-Toyota link mentioned is the Toyota 2000 GT that
    was produced in the late '60's - early '70's.  It was one of the first
    "real" sports cars produced by Toyota, but manufactured by Yamaha.
    
    I might be wrong, but isn't the SHO motor manufactured by Mercury
    Marine? (but designed by Yamaha)
    
    Jeff

    News from Estoril
    
    Monday 3-Feb
    
    Both Williams drivers testing the new reactive suspension. Constantly
    lapping around 1'15"5. At the end of the day they were given a set of
    qual tyres: 1'14"17 for Nigel, 1'14"60 for Riccardo.
    
    2 Ligier JS37 cars present. Alain Prost encountered more problems with
    the gearchange leading him to do 6-3 at some point around noon. Best
    lap time : 1'16"23. Boutsen had similar problems with the X-Trac box as
    well as with throttle linkage (throttle resisted and opened suddenly
    sending the car into the Armco). Fastest lap in around 1'17'5.
    
    Modena tested the Jordan-Yam. Fastest lap in 1'20.  

    2nd day in Portugal
    
    Both Williams drivers lapping 1-2 sec faster than on Monday (that is
    around 1'13" and 1'14" with end of day fastest lap between 1'12" and
    1'13").
    
    Ligier team fixing bugs. Prost lapping steadily in 1'14"-1'15". 

    FISA have allowed 5 more days for teams to send their list of drivers.
    Deadline is now 10-Feb.
    
    In any case, F1 teams are allowed to switch drivers 2 times during the
    season.
    
    Giovanna Amati is more and more likely to become a F1 driver. She has
    another offer from March (after Gugelmin decided to move to Jordan).
    
    Venturi-Lamborghini and Nelson Piquet are in negotiations.
                                                                      

    
    Piquet in a Lambo?
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Hang on that can't be for real.
    
     I thought Piquet had dropped out of F1 for the 92 season because
    he was only going to drive a car that was competitive and gave him a
    chance of the championship.  
    
        Got to be a joke...
    
    
    Garry
    	
    	

    
Re .233

>>>    I might be wrong, but isn't the SHO motor manufactured by Mercury
>>>    Marine? (but designed by Yamaha)
    
No, that's the engine in the ZR1 'vette.  GM is talking of cutting back
production on the ZR1 so 200 of the engines are likely to wind up in the
new Iso sports car.

- Nate

    March announced las night that they have signed Karl Wendlinger and
    Paul Belmondo for 1992. The cars will stay Miami Blue and backing is
    from the Vortex F3000 team, plus "a well known music industry figure".
    
    Tyrrell and Venturi are expected to announce their second drivers today
    and Ligier will follow suit. One scenario there is for Prost to drive
    this year with Comas as test driver.
    
    Its very sad when F3000 make weights like Amati and Belmondo can get
    potentially reasonable drives (Judd and Ilmor engines looked reasonable
    last year) when Blundell, de Cesaris, Piquet, Hill and now it seems
    Zanardi cannot.
    
    Paul

From VOGON News:

    Ligier have named Thierry Boutsen and Eric Comas as their drivers for 1992,
    ending speculation that Alain Prost would start the season with them.
    However, Prost can still drive for the team at a later date.

    Other driver nominations include Oliver Grouillard at Tyrell and Bertrand
    Gachot at Venturi-Larrousse.

I read in the Times today that Nikki Lauda's name is being linked with
Ferrari again. The article hinted that Nikki was drafted in for some
team management position not to drive. Anybody know more?

	Dave

    That is I think old hat, I saw that on CeeFax some time ago. Autosport
    reports this week that he has been employed as a consultant , In hope
    that ferrari can return to former glory.
    
    But more intresting , Steve Nichols has agreed terms with Sauber to
    swap with Harvey Postlethwaite.  A starting date has not been fixed.
    
    
    Garry

    Final Entry List:
    
    McLaren		Senna		Berger
    Tyrrell		Zanardi		Grouillard
    Williams		Mansell		Patrese
    Brabham		vd Poele	Amati
    Footwork		Alboreto	Suzuki
    Lotus		Hakkinen	Herbert
    Fondmetal		Tarquini	Chiesa
    March		Wendlinger	Belmondo
    Benetton		Brundle		Schumacher
    Scuderia Italia	Martini		Lehto
    Minardi		Morbidelli	Fittipaldi
    Ligier		Boutsen		Comas
    Ferrari		Alesi		Capelli
    Venturi		Katayama	Gachot
    Jordan		Modena		Gugelmin
    Andrea Moda		Caffi		Bertaggia
    
    Start betting now on the first replacement.....
    
    2-1 on its Prost at Ligier before S Africa.
    
    Paul

    Ferrari have rolled out their new baby. Called the F92A, instead of
    644, just to show that the Barnard era is history. The new car has been
    mainly designed by Migeot and Nichols around new aerodynamics.
    
    The car has immediately been nicknamed F15 for its resemblance to some
    well-known military jets. The internal aerodynamics are the real
    mystery. Migeot is reported to be very confident on the system to set a
    new standard.
    
    The return of Ferrari ?

    Estoril testing continues. Both Williams (Patrese) and Ligier (Prost)
    have tried running GP endurance tests. The Williams only completed one
    lap with a suspension part breaking and ending the session. The Ligier
    encountered a few problems too. Prost was running in 1'16". Fastest end
    of day lap in 1'14"2.
    
    At 1st sight the Ligiers are 2-3 seconds slower than the Williams. Is
    this real ? Were they using same tyres and fuel load ? Are they trying
    to hide something ? In the negative I see Prost playing golf ...
     

    
    Are who trying to hide something?
    
    Williams have been faster than Ligier by this factor (or more!) ever since 
    Jacques Laffite broke his legs at Brands!!!!!
    
    Why should Ligier be close to Williams? Just because they have the same
    engine?
    
    Of course, you may mean that Williams are sandbagging. A distinct
    possibility!
    
    Mark

    Mark,
    
    Its probably because a lot of people expect Ligier to find the extra
    pace because Prost is driving. 
    

    
    Has anyone got any info on prices/packages for this year's British
    Grand Prix?  
    
    Anyone planning to go?
    
    What's the best way to get there, route, time, etc.
    
    Tony                            

    
>>
    What's the best way to get there, route, time, etc.
>>
     
    helicopter or motorbike! (unless you like spending hours sitting in a
    queue! 

RE: .248

>    Why should Ligier be close to Williams? Just because they have the same
>    engine?

Because if Ligier want to win races, they're going to have to lap close to
Williams.  Being 2 seconds slower per lap for the duration of a race will put
you one lap or more down at the finish.

--PSW

    Well i finally went out and booked the Hotel for the Grand Prix in
    Montreal this coming June.  This will be my first Grand Prix race and
    hopefully Ferrari's 2nd win (while I'm doing some predicting....I
    predict that Ferrari will do better than last year ;-) and that they
    will indeed win 3 no... make that 4 races this year.  I think Mr. Lauda
    and the new car along with a few other fresh races will be the begining
    of another Great decade of racing at Ferrari.
    
    Any other predictions out there????
    
    Regards,
    JP 

    Predictions for 1992 -
    
    Senna to take the title with 6 wins
    Mansell to be runner upwith 3
    
    Debut victories for Modena & Jordan, and Capelli at Ferrari. Alesi to
    have another poor season and be blown away by Ivan.
    
    Surprise of the season - Hakkinen and Herbert to score podium finishes
    with Lotus, 
    
    Andrea Moda to fold before half way point and render pre-qual
    pointless.
    
    S African GP prediction:
    
    Mansell
    Senna
    Capelli
    Berger
    Schumacher
    Fittipaldi
    
    Paul 

    
    Ooooh Goody.
    
    Senna to loose all his gears and wheels in each race, but still clinch
    the championship, after the Williams team experiment with
    electromagnetic levitation device to replace tyres! :^)
    
    If this ISN'T the year Mansell wins the championship, I don't think
    he ever will. 
    
    Ferrari to make a better impression than before. Like him or loathe
    him, Prost didn't gell with Ferrari and they spent most of last season
    bitching at each other. A couple of opportune wins for Alesi and
    Capelli - Get real Paul, Capelli will never be a FASTER driver than
    Jean :^)
    
    Jordan to dive into the depths of obscurity. A few good (podium?)
    results for Tyrrell.
    
    If Williams can get their act together from race 1, I suspect a Mansell
    championship, but I suspect that once again the McLaren team will just
    have the edge and Senna'll take the championship, AGAIN!!!! 
    
    Mark

    	This WILL be Mansell's year!! though it will go down the wire.
    Expect Berger to put up a MUCH better fight this year than last and
    help prevent Senna picking up valuable points on his "off days".
    Mansell to win 6, Senna 5, Patrese and Berger a couple each and Alesi
    one.
    
    	Jordan WILL do well and pip Ferrari to 3rd place in the
    Constructors although the Prancing Horse will have a better season than
    last with some good podium finishes from both the boys. Lotus to have a
    revival year and finish behind Ferrari with several points-scoring
    finishes.
    
    	Ligier to have another disaster (easy, that one!) with March,
    Andrea Mode, Venturi, Fondmetal and Footwork all competing for "worst
    of the lot" status. Mediocre season for Benetton (again) and Brabham,
    Scuderia Italia, and Minardi picking up the odd point here and there.
    
    	Oh, and Mosely to be re-elected!
    
    Colin

    Ferrari to kick off well with the new 'F15' (have you guys seen that
    thing? its front end is awesome!) putting Alesi temporarily into the
    lead on points, he likes Montreal and Mexico remember.
    
    Senna to lose the championship to Mansell - because Mansell can be
    controlled by Frank Williams and the car is now ready at the start of
    the season.
    God forgive me for predicting this because it might come true and I 
    for one abhor the thought of the prima donna antics that will be put
    on Mansell....of course much to the delight of his adoring fans. (These
    words come out sounding meaner than they were thought ... but still
    intended)
    
    Most startling performance will be one win for Ligier (probably at the
    front end of the season) when Prost replaces Boutsen. 
    
               			George Frost
             

    
    George,
    
    What are you saying!!!??!?!? :^)
    
    Mark

    From Vogon News:
    
    Prequalifiers will be:
    
    2 x Andrea Moda
    2 x Venturi Larrousse
    1 x Footwork
    1 x Fondmetal
    
    wonder how they'll chose which Footwork and Fondmetal drivers have to
    get up early?
    
    Paul

    I see three teams whose fortunes could go either way this year.
    Benneton could look up with Walkinshaw at the helm. But is the car and
    engine up to the task? We'll see. Jordan's success this year will
    depend on their new design accomodating the Yamaha V-10. This is no
    small task. Last year Tyrrell had to completly redesign their 1990 car
    for the Honda V-10 - bigger radiators, larger fuel cells, longer wheel
    base, revised aerodynamics. They had their hands full and had a
    misreable season. I hope Jordan is better equiped to adapt their
    design. 
    
    Finally, Ferrari. They have a new and exciting design, and seem to have
    worked out some of their political and leadership issues. It remains to
    be seen if this will last into the season, especially if success
    doesn't come early. They also lack a top rank driver. This is no cut on
    Cappelli or Alesi, both of whom are talented. But Alesi seemed to whilt
    in the political turmoil last year and Cappelli has never had a true
    first rank ride. We'll see.
    
    I look for McLaren and Williams to continue to be strong. No reason to
    think otherwise. But will Ferrrar or anyone else challenge? Only if
    the big boys falter.
    
    Paul
    

The Yamaha in the Jordon is a v12.

The Ferrari looks awesome and might be a break-through design if the engine
works properley.

Williams to be better oranised this year than last. No bungled pit stops.

Senna to get even better, even more able to make an ailing car perform.

Williams to win in S.A.

    
    Sadly I think its a Senna year again. 
    
    I think that early on Williams will do reasonably with Patrese leading
    the championship with Mansell behind. Senna will be running in third
    with the Ferraris behind that. Oh yes and a bloke called Berger will
    win a lucky race.
    
    Then several things will let McHonda-Senna through.
    
    1. McLaren/Hondas supurb effort under pressure (due to more money and
       technology).
    2. Senna now has a challenge which he didn't have early on.
    3. Prost will bring pressure on Ligier who will bring pressure on
       Renault to make sure HE gets the best engines (as he will certainly
       be driving by then).
    4. In fighting in Williams as they start to drift (race cancelled
       because of a wash-out caused by Mansell's tears when Patrese passes
       him.)
    5. Ferrari will get better.
    
    
    Senna will win with a margin of about 10 points over Mansell, Patrese,
    Berger. 
    
    I also think that we'll see Keke Rosberg appear to replace somebody (if
    a topline driver gets hurt - god (or gods) forbid.)
    
    Jules

    
    Having seen pictures of the new Ferrari, I'm dissapointed.
    
    Where's the radical appearance heralded in this note? My first thought
    was 'I wonder how long before they open up those sidepods to cool the
    car?'.
    
    About as radical as an Escort! 
    
    Mark

	Well the way I see it is that ..

	The might of McLaren-Honda will take some beating. Maybe
	in the early races before their new car arrives it will 
	be tougher but come the season end...

	Williams are obvious first up contenders, but their 
	drivers are too keen on DNFs.

	Why shouldn't Ligier do well. Even if Prost doesn't join
	the underrated Boutsen could be the man to make most of it.

	Jordan will show well between car failures ending the season
	strongly.

	Ferraris new car will probably be a lemon and their descent
	to the top of division two is well marked.

	Quietly, but effectively, the Benettons will pick up anything
	going in the form of a great many points finishes.

	One of the other teams will produce a car that vaults them
	well forward in the pecking order. Don't know who it is but
	there's always someone.

	Hopefully it's going to be close this year. I sense a lot of
	acrimony in the offing. 

	-John

     Mansell was interviewed on the BBC World Service and from his comments, it
    seems Williams are really trying very hard this year. Mansells' diet and
    loss of weight are aimed at bringing the cars weight down - obvious
    really, but not so obvious that they didn't try it last year. Also, they
    are testing with three drivers on normal and reactive suspensions, and in
    addition to the public testing are also continuing at Estoril this week.
    
     Will it make any difference? I think Senna may snatch the title simply
    because he has more resources available. I'm unsure how Renault will
    be able to split resources with the French press solidly behind
    Ligier. 
    
     As for the rest, Ferrari will improve on last year - they can hardly
    get worse. Benneton will in the points without being spectacular, while
    Jordan could surprise again if the Yamaha "bike" gerarbox stands up to
    the pace. Hopefully, Lotus and Tyrell will be in the points and
    attracting more sponsorship.
    
     Final thoughts, more a wish really  - a good competitive season with
    some close racing. 

    Person going to Montreal GP this year - have you organised your tickets
    already?  I was there last year - had grand stand seats right level
    with the Start Finish Line / Not very good for photo's or views,
    everyone likes to stand up each time they go around!!  Getting to track
    via metro was best.  Take your own coffee - no-one on the track circuit
    sold coffee or even semi-decent standard GP track food.  Best tickets
    would be -if /when I go back are stand No. 1 top row then you can stand
    up and see all of pit straight, and the first corners to the right. 
    Grandstand No. 11  was too far from the track to feel as though you
    were with the action.
    
    Anyone got any info on best seats for Magny Cours, Hockenheim, Monza. 
    I already have been to Spa, Montreal, Silverstone, Monte Carlo, Imola
    and of course Australia.  I plan to do the top three and a quick trip
    back to Australia.  Any info on these tracks would be a great help,
    also accomodation recommendations.
    
    Vivien Robinson

    Re -1 No I haven't got tickets yet.  I am planning to check with
    members of the FCA who are planning to attend and try and tag along
    with them :-).  If it can't be arranged I'll have to try and play it by
    ear.  BTW I don't drink coffee so I have that battle already won.
    
    regards,
    JP

Don't forget to bring your own set of flags!  :-)

Dave

RE: .269

I think that Venturi-Larrousse is in pre-qualifying because it's the
constructor, not the team, that counts.  They're not running Lolas this season.

--PSW

    	Well, it's nearly the end of the road for me .... with Digital,
    that is. After nearly 13 years and three countries later, I am leaving
    at the end of the month.
    
    	I wish I could keep my account open, if even just for this NOTES
    conference, which I will miss a  lot.
    
    	Thanks to you all for providing much interesting debate around a 
    subject matter we all enjoy, even if we do have totally opposite views 
    on it!!
    
    	Vive Williams, Mansell and Lotus!!!
    
    Best wishes to you all,
    
    	Colin

    Who are FCA?  As a coke drinker the coffee was no hassles for me
    either!!!  Is there any association I could join over here that enables
    me to more info on F1?  Also I want to get hold of the current FOCA/FISA
    rules - might be interesting!?  
    
    On other matters - it is pleasing to see Niki Lauda back involved in
    F1.  Possibilities for Ferrari this year.  Michael Schumacher seems to
    be doomed with controversy.  Hope it does not ruin his career, the
    political back-stabbing dramas. Great disappointment with no Prost,
    Piquet, Moreno for this year, here's hoping something will eventuate
    before too long. 
    
    Vivien Robinson

    FCA is the Ferrari Club of America, of which I have been a member for
    the last year.  As for advanced info I am hoping to get some either
    through the FCA, one of my co workers who goes to Montreal every year
    or through Molson which sponsors the event.  I am not sure where you
    would get a copy of the rules.  
    
    regards,
    JP

    According to ceefax last night Tyrrell has joined forces with ELF
    again for the 92 season.

	Piquet is going to drive the Indy 500. It was not mentioned in which 
	team he will be.

	- Jyri -

    	Tom Walkinshaw and Michael Schumacker were in Witney on Friday
    afternoon, at the management/design centre rather than the workshop (Ie
    this was not a seat fitting!). My son went round to see the helicoptor
    and caught them walking back to it ; he was too gob-smacked to ask for
    autographs!!
    
    	I'm not too upset, as I've said before, about the demise of Piquet.
    I am much more upset about the proliferation of Renta-Drives there are
    these days at the expense of some (possibly) more deserving drivers. I
    just hope Amati, Katayama, Belmondo, Chiesa and company manage to keep
    their heads up round the first qualifying laps!!
    
    Colin

    Hypothesis.....
    
    	Will Lauda have enough influence with both Ferrari AND Prost to put
    them together again, this season or next?
    
    		George Frost

    
    				
    				No

    Is that sentiment, opinion, logic or fact.
    
    		George Frost

    
    Season not yet over thus it can't be fact.
    
    Logic would fail to produce an answer as there is no logic in F1.
    
    I'd like Ferrari to do well in F1 so it's no sentiment.
    
    This leaves opinion.
    
    Which it is.
    
    Jules.

    We saw the item about Piquet and Indy. No team was mentioned as I
    believe that Nelson is still fishing. The top team generally run two
    cars for the season and for Indy, though some of them might be tempted
    to bring on Piquet for the 500 in a third machine - if he brings $$$. I
    would imagine he might be able to do just that.
    
    As good as Nelson is/was, there is still a learing curve for oval track
    racing. No doubt that he has the potential to do as well as Fittipaldi
    given time and a sympathetic team. We'll see.
    
    Paul
    

RE: .284

The news report said he would be driving a Lola/Buick.  That immediately
rules out the top teams.  None of the top teams use Buick engines.

--PSW

Just imagine, Nelson having to go through Rookie Orientation at the 
brickyard!

Dave

RE: .286 (rookie orientation)

Yep, that'll happen.  When Alberto Ascari went to Indy, he took great delight
in transferring the "rookie stripes" from the back of his car to the back of
his mechanic's jacket when he passed his rookie orientation.


RE: Piquet's team for Indy

Team Menard is giving Nelson his Indy ride.

--PSW

    With the SA GP just around the corner (yeah!) I was wondering if there
    have been any major changes to the Kyalami circuit since the F1 boys
    last raced there? Was it 7 years ago? I forget and I haven't gone to
    look it up.
    
    Paul
    

    Prediction for Kyalami:
    
    	1:	Senna
    	2:	Berger
    	3:	Patrese
    	4:	Capelli
    	5:	Brundell
    	6:	Boutsen
    
    Mansell's reactive suspension collapses!
    Alesi and Schumacher overcook it!
    Both Jordans fail Modena - gearbox, Geugelmin (sp?) - Yamaha
    
    The Honda engine produced for Sezuka last year wins over the Renault
    easily, and the Mclaren is its steady, unwieldy, but reliable self!
    
    Lotus of Herbert and Hakinnen both go well with the Ford HB stuck in
    the back.
    
    Footwork Mugan's both DNF due to engine blow outs!
    
    That said, now none of that will come true!
    
    Steve

>    	5:	Brundell

	This year the generic driver Mark Brundell is no longer racing
	for Brabham. You'll have to be a bit more specific!
	
	Don't know who's going to win in SA but eagerly awaiting start
	of season.

	Is it still live on satellite?.

	-John

    
>    	5:	Brundell
    
>	This year the generic driver Mark Brundell is no longer racing
>	for Brabham. You'll have to be a bit more specific!
    
    
    	Oooops Martin Brundle as opposed to Mark Blundell.
    
    Steve

    De Crasheris has ousted Zanardi(?) at Tyrrell. Good, in a way, to see
    the improved Andrea get another chance this year, but Zanardi deserves
    a drive more than a lot of the nimno drivers now in F1.
    
    Mark

    
    Mark,
    
    
    
    		Are you sure you mean NIMNO????
    
    	        Surly you mean BIMBO!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    	

    
    I'm never Surly! :^)
    
    I was actually thinking NIPPON...
    
    Mark

    Daily Mail, sports pages in the middle .
    
    Good article and time table on 1992 season.

    Re: -1
    
    I've got the article if anyone wants it ... let me know before I use it
    to clean the cat litter tray  ....... ;-)
    
    Lisa.
    

	Ceefax says that Lotus have a new sponsorship deal with,
	if I remember rightly, Hitachi. Also there is a great deal
	of optimism as to the performance of the new car.

	Only a few days to go.

	-John

	PS. Best wishes to Colin Dawson, who I think originated the 
	F1 discussions in this conference.

    Yes, Hitachi is right. It also has a quote from Johnny Herbert saying
    that he thought that there were a few people going to be supprised with
    the performance of the new Lotus. If the new lotus is that good it will
    be a big turn round from last year.
    
    

    
    Apparently Mr Prost is still squabling with Ligier and thus he will NOT
    be driving at Kyalami as the entrance list had to be in yesterday.
    Comas remains the driver. 
    
    Prost is rumoured to be attempting to gain a major share holding in the
    company. Perhaps then he'll drive? (who'll argue if hes the owner??)
    
    Jule 

    re .299
    
    	Thanks John! I'm still here (two days to go but who's counting) -
    just! I'm not sure I originated the F1 topic but I'm happy to claim all
    the credit...
    
    	If there is anyone in the Reading area who wants to come along, I'm
    buying drinks at the New Inn, Heckfield between 12 and 2 on Friday
    (28th).
    
    	I shall certainly miss the fellowship of this conference and the
    debates (arguments?!) between similarly-interested individuals. I may
    not have agreed with all of you all of the time (or even some of you
    ....etc) but I've enjoyed the banter and opinion.
    
    	Thankyou and goodbye.
    
    		Colin
    
    PS ... and I still stay Mansell and Williams this year!!!

    Any word yet on qualifying for South Africa?
    
    Thanks,
    
    	Barb
    

    
     Barb,
    
          Dont they start qualifying on Friday ? 
    
                                                Bruno

	Prequalifs: Friday, 8 am --> 9 am (local time), for 
		Fondmetal (1 car)
		Footwork  (1)
		Andrea Moda (2)
		Venturi-Larousse (2)
			Out of those 6, 4 cars will run for the qualifs.
	

	Qualifs: 1st round: Friday, 12 am --> 1 pm
		 2nd round: Saturday, 12 am --> 1 pm

    There are also two 1 hour sessions today to aclimatise to the new
    track. Anybody got access to Ceefax to get the times?
    
    Paul

The French TV channel "La 5" is showing both practice sessions live (11-12 UK
time), so I'll be able to report in some detail about the first session
tomorrow afternoon.

Practice worries me this season.... Pirelli have pulled out - leaving Goodyear
as sole suppliers of tyres. They've scrapped qualifiers - which means that
drivers will be out on the track a lot more (before a driver would do a warm-up
lap, a timer lap and a "cool-down" lap 2 times per session - 6 laps in total).

Secondly, there are a lot more "rabbits" (as Lauda used to call them) in the
pack - drivers who are there because they've got sponsorship rather than due to
any intrinsic merit.

Put the above two together and I see some nasty "coming togethers" this
season...

Steve

    
    Re .308 I also feel that this could be a rather rombustous (sic) season
    as well. With De Crasheris still around and several un-skilled morons
    out there (not to mention Senna -- go on Senna lovers, rise to the 
    challenge) it could be nasty.
    
    As for tyres, I think its sad that the ex-tyre F1 manufacturers of
    recent years are not there eg Michellin, Avon, Pirelli and how about
    Dunlop! Where are all these people why is it that they stay (or are
    kept) out of F1. Surely Firestone, Bridgestone and Uniroyal have the
    clout and finances to come in?
    
    Jules
    
    

RE: .309

Pirelli's problem is that they couldn't build tyres that would win races.
I think Benetton could have won at least one race last year were it not for
extra tyre changes necessitated when their Pirellis went off.  Simply put,
Pirelli was the loser's tyre.  Pirelli were either unwilling or unable to put
out the effort needed to come up with a winning tyre, so they did the noble
thing and left F1.

Having only one supplier of tyres ought to reduce the costs a bit, which
should help some of the less-well-heeled teams.

--PSW

posted in rec.autos.sport:
--------------------------
From: jmurphy@welty.nih.gov (Joe Murphy)
Subject: F1 Kyalami Pre-Practice #2
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1992 23:12:39 GMT
 
Championship Rd.1 South African Grand Prix at Kyalami: (4.26km)
 P No. Driver------------------------------------ Best-LapT ---Behind -Km/h--
 1   5 Nigel Mansell      (GB)  Williams Renault   1'17.107           198.892
 2   2 Gerhard Berger     (A)   McLaren Honda      1'18.660     1.553 194.966
 3   1 Ayrton Senna       (BR)  McLaren Honda      1'19.007     1.900 194.109
 4   6 Riccardo Patrese   (I)   Williams Renault   1'19.691     2.584 192.443
 5  27 Jean Alesi         (F)   Ferrari            1'19.743     2.636 192.318
 6  19 Michael Schumacher (D)   Benetton Ford-HB   1'19.807     2.700 192.164
 7  28 Ivan Capelli       (I)   Ferrari            1'20.502     3.395 190.505
 8  20 Martin Brundle     (GB)  Benetton Ford-HB   1'20.568     3.461 190.349
 9   4 Andrea de Cesaris  (I)   Tyrrell Ilmor      1'21.050     3.943 189.217
10  12 Johnny Herbert     (GB)  Lotus Ford-HB      1'21.342     4.235 188.537
11  24 Gianni Morbidelli  (I)   Minardi Lamborgh.  1'21.386     4.279 188.435
12  25 Thierry Boutsen    (B)   Ligier Renault     1'21.587     4.480 187.971
13  16 Karl Wendlinger    (A)   March Ilmor        1'21.734     4.627 187.633
14  10 Aguri Suzuki       (J)   Footwork  Honda    1'21.940     4.833 187.161
15  11 Mika Hakkinen      (SF)  Lotus Ford-HB      1'21.949     4.842 187.141
16  23 Christian Fittipaldi(BR)Minardi Lamborgh.   1'22.110     5.003 186.774
17  26 Erik Comas         (F)   Ligier Renault     1'22.389     5.282 186.141
18   9 Michele Alboreto   (I)   Footwork Honda     1'22.399     5.292 186.119
19  32 Stefano Modena     (I)   Jordan Yamaha      1'22.434     5.327 186.040
20   3 Olivier Grouillard (F)   Tyrrell Ilmor      1'22.686     5.579 185.473
21  33 Mauricio Gugelmin  (B)   Jordan Yamaha      1'22.808     5.701 185.199
22  21 J.J. Lehto         (SF)  Dallara Ferrari    1'23.134     6.027 184.473
23  29 Bertrand Gachot    (B)   Larrousse Lambor.  1'24.015     6.908 182.539
24  15 Gabriele Tarquini  (I)   Fondmetal Ford     1'24.049     6.942 182.465
25  30 Ukyo Katayama      (J)   Larrousse Lambor.  1'24.497     7.390 181.498
26   7 Eric Van de Poele  (B)   Brabham Judd       1'25.045     7.938 180.328
27  14 Andrea Chiesa      (CH)  Fondmetal Ford     1'25.068     7.961 180.279
28  17 Paul Belmondo      (F)   March Ilmor        1'26.428     9.321 177.442
29  22 Pierluigi Martini  (I)   Dallara Ferrari    1'26.920     9.813 176.438
30   8 Giovanna Amati     (I)   Brabham Judd       1'28.937    11.830 172.437
31  34 Alex Caffi         (I)   Andrea Moda Judd  55'03.034 53'45.927   4.643
32  35 Enrico Bertaggia   (I)   Andrea Moda Judd     No Time

    No prequalifying this time, as Andrea Moda have been excluded due to
    irregularities in the take over of Coloni.
    
    The real thing starts at 11am UK time.
    
    Paul

    .310
    
    Didn't Bennetton win 1 race last year?
    
    Mark

	Untimed practice can be an unreliable guide according to
	whether the teams are testing half tanks etc. but...

	First up after the Williams/McLaren/Ferrari/Benneton was
	the De Cesaris Tyrrell!. A heartening result for a team
	that nearly became extinct. Then Herberts Lotus confirming
	the revival predicted by some noters here.

	Jordan who should have filled this spot were well down
	amongst the pack, and Dallara-Ferrari are really in the 
	also,also rans.

	This Belmondo is something of a find, only five seconds slower
	than his teammate.

	I feel sure that Senna will be a lot closer to Mansell in
	official qualifying, but it looks good for Williams.

	Anyone got the first qualifying times yet?.

	-John

RE: -.1

He's currently 22nd - so there are 8 drivers behind him....

    
    Re Paul Belmondo.
    
    While he's never shown to be a budding Alesi or Schumacher, it's
    grossly unfair to judge a driver's quality on the figures from one
    session. He could have had all sorts of problems (I can recall cases
    where Mansell has been that kind of gap off his team-mate due to
    mechanical problems). The season may prove you right, but you ought to
    give him a fair chance.
    
    Mark
    
    PS Mansell to win, Senna second with Patrese and Berger retiring in an
    'incident' over 3rd leaving Alesi to take it - Funny to see he's ahead
    of the 'faster' Capelli! :^)

    Here's the full list of times from Friday's qualifying:
    
	 1.  N.MANSELL      (GB/Williams)    1'15"576
	 2.  G.BERGER       (Aut/McLaren)    1'16"672
	 3.  A.SENNA        (Bre/McLaren)    1'16"815
	 4.  R.PATRESE     (Ita/Williams)    1'17"571
	 5.  M.SCHUMACHER  (All/Benetton)    1'18"251
	 6.  J.ALESI        (Fra/Ferrari)    1'18"388
	 7.  A.DE CESARIS   (Ita/Tyrrell)    1'18"544
	 8.  K.WENDLINGER     (All/March)    1'18"88O
	 9.  I.CAPELLI      (Ita/Ferrari)    1'19"O39
	1O.  J.HERBERT         (GB/Lotus)    1'19"362
	11.  O.GROUILLARD   (Fra/Tyrrell)    1'19"473
	12.  T.BOUTSEN       (Bel/Ligier)    1'19"5O6
	13.  A.SUZUKI      (Jap/Footwork)    1'19"532
	14.  M.ALBORETO    (Ita/Footwork)    1'19"571
	15.  G.TARQUINI   (Ita/Fondmetal)    1'19"577
	16.  M.HAKKINEN       (Fin/Lotus)    1'19"672
	17.  M.BRUNDLE      (GB/Benetton)    1'19"885
	18.  E.COMAS         (Fra/Ligier)    1'19"97O
	19.  C.FITTIPALDI   (Bre/Minardi)    1'2O"111
	2O.  M.GUGELMIN      (Bre/Jordan)    1'2O"12O
	21.  JJ.LEHTO       (Fin/Dallara)    1'2O"571
	22.  G.MORBIDELLI   (Ita/Minardi)    1'21"O27
	23.  P.MARTINI      (Ita/Dallara)    1'21"134
	24.  B.GACHOT       (Eur/Venturi)    1'21"477
	25.  E.V.D.POELE    (Bel/Brabham)    1'21"648
	26.  S.MODENA        (Ita/Jordan)    1'22"O2O
    
    

From: jmurphy@welty.nih.gov
Subject: F1 Kyalami Friday Qualify
Date: 28 Feb 92 21:02:29 GMT
 
KYALAMI, SOUTH AFRICA - RIS - Qualifying results for the FIA World Driving
Championship, Yellow Pages South Africa GP:
 
Ps.No.  Driver ,      Car                                     Lap Time M.P.H.
-- ---- ----------------------------------------------------- -------- -------
 1   5  Nigel Mansell, Britain     Williams Renault           1:15.576 126.088
 2   2  Gerhard Berger, Austria    Honda Marlboro McLaren     1:16.672 124.285
 3   1  Ayrton Senna, Brazil       Honda Marlboro McLaren     1:16.815 124.054
 4   6  Riccardo Patrese, Italy    Williams Renault           1:17.571 122.845
 5  19  Martin Brundle, Britain    Camel Benetton Ford        1:18.251 121.777
 6  27  Jean Alesi, France         Ferrari Ferrari            1:18.388 121.565
 7   4  Andrea de Cesaris, Italy   Tyrrell Ilmor              1:18.544 121.323
 8  16  Karl Wendlinger, Austria   March Ilmor                1:18.880 120.806
 9  28  Ivan Capelli, Italy        Ferrari Ferrari            1:19.039 120.563
10  12  Johnny Herbert, Britain    Lotus Ford                 1:19.362 120.073
11   3  Olivier Grouillard, France Tyrrell Ilmor              1:19.473 119.905
12  25  Thierry Boutsen, Belgium   Ligier Renault             1:19.506 119.855
13  10  Aguri Suzuki, Japan        Footwork Mugen Honda       1:19.532 119.816
14   9  Michele Alboreto, Italy    Footwork Mugen Honda       1:19.571 119.757
15  15  Gabriele Tarquini, Italy   Fondmetal Ford             1:19.577 119.748
16  11  Mika Hakkinen, Finland     Lotus Ford                 1:19.672 119.605
17  20  Michael Schumacher, Germany Camel Benetton Ford       1:19.885 119.286
18  26  Erik Comas, France         Ligier Renault             1:19.970 119.160
19  23  Gianni Morbidelli, Italy   Minardi Lamborghini        1:20.111 118.950
20  33  Mauricio Gugelmin, Brazil  Jordan Yamaha              1:20.120 118.937
21  21  J.J. Lehto, Finland        Dallara Ferrari            1:20.571 118.271
22  24  Christian Fittipaldi, Brazil Minardi Lamborghini      1:21.027 117.605
23  22  Pierluigi Martini, Italy   Dallara Ferrari            1:21.134 117.450
24  29  Bertrand Gachot, Belgium   Venturi Lamborghini        1:21.477 116.956
25   7  Eric van de Poele, Belgium Brabham Judd               1:21.648 116.711
26  32  Stefano Modena, Italy      Jordan Yamaha              1:22.020 116.181
27  17  Paul Belmondo, France      March Ilmor                1:22.022 116.179
28  30  Ukyo Katayama, Japan       Venturi Lamborghini        1:22.129 116.027
29  14  Andrea Chiesa, Switzerland Fondmetal Ford             1:22.170 115.969
30   8  Giovanna Amati, Italy      Brabham Judd               1:25.942 110.879

Sunday's grid (top 10):

	1. Mansell
			2. senna
	3. Berger
			4. Patrese
	5. Alesi
			6. Schumacher
	7. Wendlinger
			8. Brundle
	9. Capelli
			10. DeCesaris

Mansell finished qualifying in the spare car after depositing his primary car 
in the sand traps.

    
    Result :-
    
    Mansell
    Patrese
    Senna
    Schumacher
    Berger
    Herbert - As predicted by some noters here!
    
    A good result for Williams and for Senna as it turned out.
    
    Mansell was in a different league to everyone else, winning by over
    20 seconds and taking it fairly easy. Patrese was panned mercilessly
    by James Hunt (Who made a number of Walker-esque errors and was
    corrected by Murray! Are they reversing roles this season?), but did
    all that Williams would have really wanted of him by finishing second
    to ensure full championship points for the team and depriving Senna of
    the 2 extra points 2nd would have bought. Just imagine what Hunt would
    have been saying if the Williams drivers had raced each other to car
    failure and handed the win to Senna. What is it with Hunt? Was it just
    a case of the race being SO dull that he felt he had to inject some
    controversy? Thanks to Alesi/Schumacher and Patrese/Senna we had a few
    moments of potential interest, but this was hardly a thrilling race,
    pity we didn't follow Herbert in the early stages.
    
    Brundle expired early after an incident (including a Mansell like
    clutch wrecking spin turn), while both Ferraris expired with engine 
    trouble (although Alesi especially had looked fairly competitive until
    then, easily holding off Schumacher. Capelli looked out of his depth
    behind the again dissapointing Berger, but maybe he'll improve if the
    pressure of being an Italian at Ferrari doesn't get to him.
    
    I'd say roll on Mexico, but on Sunday's showing this year could be as
    dull as any McHonda dominated year, just with different coloured cars!
    
    Mark

    Did anyone hear why both Senna & Berger slowed up on the final lap?
    
    The suggestion from Walker/Hunt was that they were running out of fuel,
    with Berger stopping just past the line and if so, was it just an
    attempt to keep the weight of the cars to the minimum? If it was, they
    might have cut it rather close!

    Is Mansell on his way to that first Championship?
    
    Will we have to wait until the new cars arrive before we see a clear
    picture of the season emerge?
    
    What will Herbert be like in the new Lotus when it arrives, or is this
    his early season flurry?
    
    Will the Ligiers improve and hang on to the leading pack for the whole
    season?
    
    Will Ferrari be able to break the Williams/McLaren/Benetton
    triumvirate?
    
    It looks as if it could be a very interesting, exciting and
    entertaining season.
    
    regards,
    Terry.
    

    
    Re Senna and Berger.
    
    I don't know about Senna, but you could HEAR Berger's car coughing 
    and spluttering as he crossed the line and pulled onto the grass.
    Given how slowly he'd been driving, I'd guess Honda have a fuel
    consumption problem again.
    
    Mark

Anyone else out there feel that they've taken another interesting race circuit
and made a complete bloody mess out of it. Did anyone happen to notice a single
passing manouver made in anger during that race? Where was it going to happen?
Sure it is a safe, demanding circuit, but where's the interest? I don't blame
the cars and I don't blame the drivers.... for a large part of the race
Alesi, Schumacher, Berger, and Capelli were circulating within 10 seconds of 
each other, but there was nowhere for such evenly matched cars to get past.

Is there a future in Formila 1 if all our circuits become tight and twisty
with nothing to generate spectator interest. Perhaps it would be best to let
the cars run one by one against the clock!!!!

Disgruntled

Terry

    The race = Big Yawn !!!
    
    Good results, with some new names up there, and great Williams performance.
    
>>Anyone else out there feel that they've taken another interesting race circuit
>>and made a complete bloody mess out of it. Did anyone happen to notice a single
>>passing manouver made in anger during that race? Where was it going to happen?
    
    I don't think that the circuit is really the problem, but this layout
    does make the problem worse.  If you consider what the action would be
    like with a bunch of saloon car racers on that same circuit, you can
    see that the problem is with the extreme grip and performance of the
    F1 cars...  Decrease the grip, increase the fun (and also some increase
    in risk, admittedly), increase the premium on driver skill.
    
    This was one of the most boring 'races' I've seen in a long time
    (since last season with McLaren dominance I would guess).
    
    
    Re Hunt The Shunt
    
    I think his comments on Patrese were disgraceful.  If Prost had driven
    in the same manner, he would have said he was 'thinking'.  I mean, he
    did just as required, not racing his team-mate unnecessrily and keeping
    a buffer between himself and the car behind.  Maybe he did appear
    'lack-lustre' during qualifying, but he produced the right result.
    
    J.R.

The most exciting parts of the race were:

- Patrese's start I thought that Patrese had decided to try the new Williams
automatic clutch system - but apparently this was not the case. A wonderful 
start.

- (Apparently) De Cesaris' progress through the field after his early "off" -
  shame that we didn't see any of it on the TV!

And so to Mexico.... Hope that it is more competitive.

    
    Re: Patrese's start.
    
    Murray said that the Williams had a traction control device to prevent
    wheelspin. Patrese certainly seemed to have a lot more traction than
    the McLarens off the line.
    
    Mark

    re .331
    
    Thats what Murray said Mark, James said they weren't using it as the
    software wasn't stable enough.
    
    I agree with the past comments on Patrese, he did his jo, and probably
    REALLY frustrated Senna. James should leave him alone.
    
    Greg

RE: Hunts Patrese bashing...

I got the impression that the last British World Champion was beginning
his own 'lobby the world to get Damon Hill the Williams number 2 seat'
campaign.

Yes, it did seem harsh when when all is said and done, Ricardo did all he
COULD do. He was never going to beat Mansell while his car kept going.

But, then again, it would have demoralised the opposition if
the gap between the second Williams and the rest was 20-ish seconds.

Anyway, what happened to Jordan? What happened to the second March?

Yours questioningly

Terry B

    Whatever Ricardo did in that race, in my books he did not just get in
    Senna's way. What I saw , well apart from the start, pure magic, even
    Senna I think would have been proud of that, Patrese was slower into
    the bends. On board camera shots showed Senna rapidly catching into
    the bends ,but the the williams was well away and long gone before
    senna was exiting the bend. Senna must have been cursing. I suspect
    this will be the case until McLaren get the new car on the road.
    
    As for the race in general, it was the most boring game of follow the
    leader I have seen.
    
    
    	Garry                                         

	My observations -

	Mansell seemed to have a lot in reserve, new cars will be 
	required to beat Mansell/Williams.

	Hunts comments were well out of line I thought.

	Top marks to Wendlinger for putting the March ahead of a 
	Benetton and a Ferrari in practice and Herbert for a 
	tremendous drive in the race, also Senna (as ever).

	Another Magny Cours type cock-up on the circuit front. IMO
	a circuit needs at least one good long straight, preferably 
	entered from a long corner and exited by a sharp corner. This
	provides the necessary for a shakeout every now and then and a 
	true run race. Fortunately Mexico has just such a circuit so 
	we'll be able to see what effect that has soon.

	I claim to have spotted the only overtaking manoeuvre in the 
	entire race. It occurred in background shot on lap 1 when 
	Brundle got past Wendlinger on the inside of a curve and was
	immediately repassed in the same manner. Presumably an 
	attempted repeat shortly after produced the offs.

	-John

    After all the circuit bashing South Africa has recieved. Which I do
    agree with.
    
    Why then does everyone go on about the splendid racing at Monaco. What
    splendid racing. The last overtaking manouver I can remember there was
    a successful but fairly suicidal underbraking by Mansell on Prost at
    the chicane. I vote it the most boring race of the year before it's
    even started.
    
    Get shot of it and put on a good race at Brands as well as Silverstone.
    
    Regs,
    
    Barry.

The Williams team will be introducing an automatic clutch which is responsible
for the first 4 gears (gears above that are the driver's responsibility). They
are designed for rapid starts - you put your foot down and the car does the
rest (optimum time to change gear, avoidance of wheelspin is done for you).
The thinking is that starts are relatively easy to treat in this way - corners
etc. are a different matter.

They have ideas to take this further and make the position of the accelerator 
determine which gear you should be in - left foot braking (like in go-karts)
would be necessary!

RE: .334

The second March belongs to Belmondo - who did not qualify (his team mate
was on the top 10 of the grid). Seems to give substance to the comment in about
reply .315.

Jordan have problems with their new Yamaha engines. They were at the back of
the grid (in fact I think that only one qualified) and never figured.

	Did you notice how smoothly Mansell's car seemed to go compared
	to Senna's when they showed the on-board views? Could this be
	becouse of Williams' new active suspension?

	- Jyri -

    
    Re Belmondo.
    
    I said he deserved a chance, but I think he's now had it! :^)
    
    Giovanni Amati was slowest qualifier (4 seconds behind her team-mate),
    but at least her team mate was in sight! 
    
    Mark

RE: .339

	I only noticed Berger's car as a problem - the camera vibrated
horribly. I reckon that he lost a balance weight on one of the wheels...

    Judging by the onboard cameras I would think the active suspension made
    a huge difference.  You could hardly make out the Picture from Senna's
    car yet from Mnasell's view it looked like he was riding in a Rolls.  I
    liked what I saw from the Ferrari (I think the new car looks great) but
    it's not going to catch the Williams at this rate.  I do firmly believe
    that it will beat the McLaren car this year, if it finishes ;-(
    
    regards
    JP

    Re smooth ride in Williams / rough ride in McLaren
    
    This did seem to be the case from the on-board camera, but did you also
    notice how often Ayrton drove up over the kerbs, whereas Mansell didn't
    do this anywhere near so often...
    
    I thought that last year showed the Williams to be a much better
    handling car than the McLaren.  Having 'reactive' suspension should
    allow softer suspension (rather than as stiff as 'no suspension') so
    if they keep the handling balance about right, they should be able to
    get a smoother ride in certain track conditions.
    
    J.R.
    
    PS I also thought that Patrese's start was great

    During yesterdays GP 'action' I managed to nod off quite a few
    times. The most exciting moment was when some 'plonker' tripped over
    a power cable and the BBC lost transmission for about 5 minutes!
    
    Do Murry Walker and James Hunt EVER agree on anything!
    
    "Fly-by-wire" are these guys serious....remember Airbus!
    
    A waste of ai  time in my opinion. Bring back the motorcyling GP's.      
     
    
    
    

    Did anyone count how many times Murray Walker said "Mansell"?
    
    Ian.

	I would think that it's a lot easier to pass at Monaco than
	these two spanking new but decidedly duff circuits, the reason
	being the lack of differential speed.

	At Monaco there are some very low speed corners to offer some
	opportunity, and test some brakes. I think there's something
	of a correlation with the road situation where you come across
	a slow moving (relatively) vehicle such as a truck. If the road 
	is a series of bends you never get past because the acceleration
	available is reduced and the effective length of straight
	sections reduced. Slow it down with a sharp 90 degree job, or
	a roundabout and then the differential acceleration is greater
	as is the effective length of clear road ahead.

	Regular users of the A33 will know this syndrome well.

	-John

    
    - and what about those loonies who manage to overtake in the tunnel at
    Monaco. Seem to remember our Nige doing it a couple of years back. 
    
    I've driven through it a few times. Blowed if I'd wizz past someone at
    150mph in the dark without headlights .....

Good result for Herbert. Good result for Benneton as well, looks like a change
of rubber has made a difference, I bet they are iching to get their new engines.

After the last few years, I think that any race not dominated by McHonda is a
good race...

The Ferrari looked good. Anyone know what went wrong officially ?

Did both the Jordan/Yamahas expire with engine problems ?

When is the new McLaren arriving ?

RE: .349 (what happened to Ferrari)

All four Ferrari engines that were in the race let go both the engines on
the Ferraris and those on the Dallaras.  It's too bad because the Ferrari
chassis performed admirably.

Modena wasn't able to qualify the second Jordan.  According to the ESPN
race commentary, the car blew three engines and had to be withdrawn.

--PSW

RE: .349

Oil pump. Apparently it was not scavenging properly going into certain
corners... Schumacher said that Alesi (just in front of him) was giving off a
constant stream of oil - the Benetton driver ran out of tear-off strips as
early as the 10th lap, and from then on saw the whole race through a thick
smear of Agip's best.

    when oh when will Bernie & Co. learn that this is a spectator 
    sport and not allow any more failed new course designs... The
    Williams/Renault is a tour de force of technology... Will Ferrari
    ever learn how to keep oil in its engines?... After this start expect
    that infamous cheater I-Hear-A-Taunt to revert to his old de-crash-
    are-us high-jinks... Jordan's performance was depressing... apparently
    the rumors in the States (where Honda's on its way to becoming one of
    the biggest employers) that Honda is cutting back its $100 million 
    racing budget are true, or else the received truth that Japanese are
    smarter than white people isn't... If anybody deserves a Title it's
    Nigel, who isn't afraid to weep with sadness when he loses and will 
    be a gracious Champ if he wins it... It looks to be a good year for 
    young talent what with Weidlinger, Herbert, Alesi (still young) and
    others... It's a damned shame that with such packs as we saw in the 
    3-6 and 7-10 slots there were NO passes, his is racing?!
    
    A truly boring race... until you saw the difference between the camera
    shots in the McHonda and the Williams - remarkable technology!
    
    Honda has put everything in the engine and Ron Dennis has come up the 
    chump on chassis elements such as semi-automatic transmissions, active
    suspension, traction control, etc.
    
    And that's good.
    
    Little remembered is the radical, and stable, Renault pneumatic valve
    train technology introduced 3 years ago, which apparenlty reduces not
    only weight but friction.
    
    I hate boring races and "world tours," but if it has to happen please
    let it be either Nigel or Ricardo, two talented and deserving gents of
    the game.
    
    MrT

    
    re: .335
    
    > On board camera shots showed Senna rapidly catching [Patrese] into
    > the bends ,but the the williams was well away and long gone before
    > senna was exiting the bend.
    
    Don't forget that they go slower round the bends. In motor racing gaps
    are measured by time not distance, so a gap of 'n' seconds is twice as
    far at 100 mph as it is at 50 mph.
    
    Also the wide angle lenses on the camera exagerates perspective making
    cars appear to move away (or be caught up) much faster than is actually
    the case. Result is that car mounted camera shots, while interesting
    and sometimes exciting, are also misleading.
    
    Mike H.
    

	Yes, getting onto the throttle first gives the leader into the bend
	a good advantage. However, Patrese tends to get his speed off before
	bend, balance himself with the throttle before flooring his way out.
	Nigel is much quicker into the bend but a tad slower out.
	
	I still don't understand why Patrese wasn't up with Mansell, there are
	no team orders yet, are there?

	Dave

RE: -.1

Mansell is down from 81 to 76 Kg and is now no longer the heaviest driver in F1
(that honour now falls to Gugelmin, I think). He promised Williams that he
would take his weight training seriously during his winter break -
obviously Florida salads have done him good. Apparently 2-3 Kgs can make a few
tenths of a second difference in your lap times - especially important in
practice. Incidentally the smallest car jockey (for that is what they are 
these days) is Amati who weighs 58Kg.

Previous notes about the smoothness of re-active suspension are correct. An
interview with Patrese said that the lack of driver fatigue was the biggest
improvement it caused - he said that driving a Mercedes sport at 280 Km/hour is
far more relaxing than driving a small Fiat at 140 Km/hour. A driver who is 
comfortable and fresh all the race through is going to do a better job. He also
said that the car feels much slower because of the smoothness.

He does have his doubts though after having had the system pack up on him at
high speed.

Steve - 95Kg (a real man's weight ;-] ).

	
	Re .340 <Belmondo>

	Reason why I entered reply .315 is I do see it a disgrace that 
	untalented_but_my_dad_is_richer_than_yours blokes are offered 
	a car when others far more talented can't afford it. 

	Is Belmondo untalented? After 5 complete seasons in F3000, he 
	bravely managed to harvest just 1 single point.  5 seconds 
	behind his teammate (however marvellously talented he may be)
	in qualifications was no accident.

	Pierre.

    I'm still suprised not to see any Mansell bashing !
    
    After all he did put in the fastest lap of the race in the penultimate
    lap !
    
    
    Shaun_who_is_still_too_heavy_to_mention_weight_here_;^(

    
>                -< He simply can't have driven a good race ;^) >-

>    I'm still suprised not to see any Mansell bashing !
    
>    After all he did put in the fastest lap of the race in the penultimate
>    lap !
    
    Of course not .... its not allowed for Mansell to of driven a good
    race.
    
    In my opinion he didn't make a song and dance about his gearbox falling
    apart on the last laps, etc etc ... I mean when you expect a whine you
    should damn well have one .... thats what he's paid for isn't it?!
    
    8^)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
    

    The only real winner in F1 these days is the engineers who get to apply
    new technology to racing problems. Domination is boring. It really
    makes little difference whether it's McLaren or Williams, Prost, Senna
    or Mansell, it's boring. I have always been facinated with racing
    technology. But when it takes the center place above the racers - and
    racing - then it is out of proportion.
    
    I expect the new McLaren, when it arrives, to be good. It'll have all
    the same technology as the Williams. It might take a bit of teething,
    but it will eventually come good. Then will we have good racing? Not
    likely.
    
    The best races I've seen in the last few years have been Indy cars on 1
    mile ovals. The cars are more evenly matched than F1 and a 1 mile oval
    sorta evens things up a bit. Yeah, I know the pace car and re-starts
    are a bit artificial, but the racing - with real passing for all
    positions - is more exciting. I've loved road racing all my life but F1
    has turned into the most boring series in the world.
    
    Paul
    

Actually, Mansel's relative speed had nothing to do with the reactive
suspension!  It was ALL because he lost 8 pounds over the winter	:^)

See, if he weighed as little as the others (say Senna) he'd have lapped them
ALL!	;^)

I don't know if Patrese had problems that Mansel didn't or if Mansel has
figured out something about the setup that Patrese hasn't (perhaps unlikely if
Patrese has had more test time in the car?  {has he?})

Let's say Patrese was indeed driving "smart" i.e. just enough (a la Prost etc). 
If so, then he had to be awfully brave (as well as smart) to let Senna stay
within a second or two, especially in passing traffic.  A few times in traffic
I feared the worse (i.e. Senna might eat his lunch in passing traffic).  Had one
little thing gone awry, Mr Patrese could have looked the chump ... All in all,
I'd guess that Patrese must have had ONE LONG BRAVE RACE and really earned
whatever ...

/Mike Coughlin

    I agree with .361 I love racing, but F1 is getting boring to watch. I
    went to Montreal for 6 years in a row to watch F1. Two or three top
    teams. That's it. NASCAR or Indy cars, there's more action on the
    tracks, in the pits, and even in qualifing. I watched the South 
    African F1 race for 20 minutes. Too boring, shut it off. If your in
    the lead, chances are if the car doesn't break down he's the winner.
    
    I hope hope it gets more competitive as the year goes by. I'll still
    go to Montreal but I'll be at Laconia, N.H. for Indy and Nascar too.
    
         Barry

I remember a comment Rosberg made in a recent Autosport were he was talking
about his decision to join the German Group A circus. He said that this race
series was one of the few in the world where the driver still made a vital
contribution.

Mind you I still don't think Senna has received full credit for his amazing
performances last year in holding dodgy cars together and finishing races. I
remember the a Lotus chappie talking about Senna racing in the reactive car 
at Monaco and setting a fast time in practice. The engineers were all very
pleased with this endorsement of their technology - that is until they realised
that Senna was deliberately oversteering into corners to defeat the technology
and get the speed he needed. The engineers put him in a non-reactive car.

I agree that Renaults tour-de-force is the air-valving. What a great idea,
especially when the engines are turning at 14K and weight is important.

I wouldn't mind seeing some Renault marketing based around F1 - I see a fair
bit from Honda and Shell in this part of the world.

Also interesting that Ferrari's new light-weight engine looks like it can
deliver the power, although reliability is (as always) the problem.

Any comments on the performance of the Ferrari areodynamic package, especially
the separate bottom skirt ?

    
    Re Renault marketing based on F1.
    
    I saw a programme recently about the making of an advert in which
    'Nigel Mansell' was seen racing against an unknown black car (actually
    another, earlier Williams). I put Nigel Mansell in quotes, because for 
    the advert the driving was done by none other than Tiff Needell. I
    don't know where the advert is being/to be shown, though.
    
    Mark
    
    PS I suspect Keke is deluding himself if he thinks  he'll be able to
    make much difference in the GTCC. The whole series is based on
    handicapping competitive cars/drivers and on the teams deliberatly
    holding back to ensure that can rack up enough points. 
    
    

Renault reckon that their big advantage over Honda is in the area of
aerodynamics. At these high engine speeds, minimising airflow friction becomes
very important. Renault reckon that they are quite a long way ahead of everyone
else in this domain...

So aerodynamics is more than airflow over the bodywork!

>>Renault reckon that their big advantage over Honda is in the area of
>>aerodynamics. At these high engine speeds, minimising airflow friction becomes
>>very important. Renault reckon that they are quite a long way ahead of everyone
>>else in this domain...
    
    For Renault, I presume you mean Williams, as it is they who develop the
    car itself (or were you talking about their road cars ;^)
    
    
    Shaun.
    

>> >>Renault reckon that their big advantage over Honda is in the area of
>> >>aerodynamics. At these high engine speeds, minimising airflow friction becomes
    
>>    For Renault, I presume you mean Williams, as it is they who develop the
    
    Shaun,
    
    I think the note was actually referring to airflow management *within*
    the engine itself...
    
    J.R.

    RE: Jordan
    
    It seems they have their work cut out for them this season. Not enough
    testing of new Yamaha engine-to-chassis relationship, since the
    lucrative deal was aquired by Eddie and the gang. Rumour has it that
    the Yamaha just gets too hot and therefore -- not too suprisingly
    really -- they blow-up!
    
    Not dissimilar to the Brabham/Yamaha story last year. So, unless a
    miracle occurs it looks as if last years most promising newcomers may
    struggle this time around.
    
    RE: Hunt and Patrese.
    
    James made a fair comment with regard to Ricardos motivation; he has a
    chance to become World Champion this year. He has equal status in the
    Williams team, the same car, the same engine, etc., etc. He should be
    RACING Mansell at this early stage of the season. If by the last third
    of the season Patrese was the Williams driver most likely to win the
    championship, then, should team orders be given, they would be given in
    the Italians favour.
    
    But, according to Hunt, Patrese isn't too familiar with the car, having
    taken the winter as holiday in Italy. So, maybe he needs a few races to
    get going again?
    
    Terry B.

	Jordan - Certainly I expected much more from Jordan than 
	we've seen yet, maybe it's still to come. What is ironic is 
	that they first of all fitted the Yamaha into the old car
	and it went faster. Since the old car was not so far off the
	pace this looked very good but they're obviously in a mess
	at present. Brundle, speaking in an interview, said that the
	Ford HB was a revelation in comparison with what they had 
	last year(ie Yamaha) and the initial performance of the 
	Benetton and Lotus plus the delayed appearance of the V12
	suggests that the V8 HB isn't dead yet.

	Ferrari - It was said on TV that the new Ferrari double bottom
	aerodynamics works extremely well in high speed corners but not
	so well in the slow ones. Since SA was a slow circuit perhaps we
	haven't seen the best of it yet. However on the principle of 'If
	it looks right it is right' I don't think it's going anywhere.

	-John

    
    re: .371
    
        > ...However on the principle of 'If it looks right it is right ...
    
    A good principle, but the converse is MUCH less reliable and I presume
    that's what you meant in this case.
    
    Mike H.
    
    
                                         

.369 is correct - I was talking about the airflow (and resultant friction)
within the Renault engine.

    re: .361
    
    Sadly, I agree.  The technology is great in F1. The glamor, panache,
    glitz, etc is unmatched.  The drivers are the greatest.  The spectacle
    is superb.
    
    The racing is almost non-existent.
    
    "racing" = more than one car leading a race; the winner in doubt on the
    basis of factors other than reliability; lead changes, etc.
    
    Yes, I'll keep watching, because it is an outstanding exhibition -- the
    highest-tech form of truck pulling or mud drags -- but it's not racing
    as we define it here in the USA.  And that may be why there isn't much
    interest in F1 in the US.  We are accustomed to very good (but not the
    best) drivers driving very good (but not the best) cars engaged in
    extremely competitive (read: passing, close racing, lead changes, etc)
    racing.
    
    Don

    Re the HB.
    
    It certainly isn't dead. The V10s and V12s are heavy and can ruin an
    otherwise good car. Look what the Honda V10 did for Tyrrell last year
    and then check out their progress in the recent race (They do run a 
    HB don't they?), and of course Lotus have suddenly taken over Jordan's
    place courtesy of the HB (Jordan have sold their soul for chocolate
    gold! They'll get rich this season on Yamaha funds and be dumped next
    season for being no-hopers!).
    
    Mark

    re .373
    
    OOPS - Sorry !
    
    Shaun

    Prost-Ligier saga (continued)
    
    Everything centers around Renault as expected. On one hand Prost,
    Ligier, Balestre are pushing Renault to invest fully into the Equipe de
    France (French Team). On the other hand Renault know that they are
    about to reach their goal this season. So why would they screw up what
    they patiently built ?
    
    Reminder: the engines supplied to Ligier don't compare with the
    official Williams engines. The maintenance of the Ligier engines is
    subcontracted to a 3rd party.
    
    To join Ligier, Prost insists on a 5 year programme with Renault. Final
    decision is scheduled to be announced on March 16th.

    
>    Look what the Honda V10 did for Tyrrell last year
>    and then check out their progress in the recent race (They do run a 
>    HB don't they?)
    
    Well urm , actually its the Ilmor V10.  Though apparantly the Ilmor
    (made in Devon of all places) is nearly as light as the HB.
    
    Steve 
    

    
    Err. Well Ok, I was just testing you all out! :^)
    
    Still I made me point. A good V8 (or a good, light V10 :^)) will beat
    a poor V10 or V12 anyday!
    
    Mark

    Jordan: have exactly the same problems Tyrrell had last year. They
    changed from a small, compact, light car to a bigger, longer, heavier
    one. The Yam engine is OK but it's longer, heavier and more thirsty
    than the Ford HB. Very disappointing from Eddie Jordan.
    
    Ferrari: someone suggested earlier that they might soon drill holes
    into the sides of the new car in order to improve ventilation. Well
    that's what they should have done. Both Ferraris overheated right from
    the beginning. The immediate symptom is less power/torque, until the
    engine finally seizes ...
    
    Williams: the reactive suspension does a superb job. Patrese complained
    that he did not manage to find a good balance. Nigel obviously found it
    earlier so he could score a full hand: fastest in all sessions
    including the race. I don't see how he could possibly miss the title
    this year ! 

    Re: 366 - The Renault advert has been shown in France - rather good it is
              to. French mag Sport Auto this month features Tiff Needell
              talking about the Wiliams and themaking of the advert.
    
    Re: others - I missed the race sunday, but IMHO, the problem with TV
              viewing is that the camera sticks with the leader/local_hero, 
              and misses the real racing which often takes place further down 
              the field.
    
    Ken

    
    Ken,
    
    There wasn't any racing to miss.
    
    Mark

    Jordan and Tyrrell seem to have traded places this year. As Patrick
    pointed out, the V10 (or a V12) makes the car longer, heavier,
    thirstier, and hotter making changes essential to the aero and
    packaging. Tyrrell never came to grips with this, unfortunately. When
    testing a new engine in an old chassis, they don't always make the kind
    of changes needed for a full race model - especially in the way of
    aerodynamics and cooling. Thus the engine power is sampled but not much
    else. The point someone made here is that the Ford HB isn't dead - not
    yet. It is actually a pretty good little engine. But the lure of
    increased power seen in V10-V12s is too hard to resist. I hope that
    Jordan will come to grips with it. It seems that Jordan and Ferrari
    will have to cope with a lot of additional heat.
    
    BTW, at the Miami GP (for IMSA cars) the new Mazda GTP appeared. It is
    very nice looking, but didn't make the race. Why? Heat. They blew up at
    least three engines in practice and decided to pull out. Something
    about exhaust temperatures in excess of 1800 F. The bad news for all
    these designs is that their visual impact will be ruined by practical
    engineering - big air/radiator ducts.
    
    Paul
     

    The Jordans suffered most from their gearboxes and gear linkage. Modena
    could never complete a full lap without missing a few gearchanges (and
    overreving the engine). Apart from that the car too big and too heavy.

    RE: 380
    
    Is the Yam really OK?
    
    Brabham didn't fair too well last year, and so far -- early days though
    they are -- Jordan seem to have reached a low with Yamaha power.
    
    If the Yam is OK, then they ought to choose partners that will show it
    off in the best possible light. i.e., compete with Honda, Ford,
    Renault, etc.
    
    Terry B.

        I just wanted to comment a little about the racing and some of the
    notes on that subject. 
     
        I have been to over 20 G.P.'s since 1967, most at Watkins Glen, two 
    at Long Beach, and 4 or 5 at Montreal.  In  that time I have only seen
    two, great races, at least ones that lasted. There have been a few that
    started out as great battles but, alas did last, usually because something
    broke.
    
       I agree that some of the new tracks which are safer do little to
    promote exciting races.  However, I think that unlike in the past when
    life and limb were at stake if you got to aggresive, now it $$$$ thats
    at stake and lots of it or the threat of losing it!  
    
       Jackie Stewart accused Senna of having more crashes than any other
    top line driver, but there is no doubting Mr. Senna's talent behind the
    wheel, and I believe unlike many of the others no one to equal his
    Courage behind the wheel either!   
    
       I also believe that is why I am also a fan of Mansell's he to has
    great skill and great courage.  
    
       Markus
    

The new Ferrari engine is supposed to be smaller and lighter than the old one
and to have a considerably wider spread of usable power. So much so that the
team are using a 6-speed auto gearbox, rather than the old 7 speed one
which saves further weight.

Interesting about the aerodynamics though, would make the cars much harder to
test in a wind tunnel, methinks...

Williams still have the new chassis up their sleaves if the new McLaren proves
ultra competitive...

RE: Prost and Ligier.

This evening CEEFAX reports that Prost is demanding a five year
deal from Renault, instead of the offered and customary three year deal.

It would appear that Prost is interested, but not convinced the Ligier will
be a front runner just yet, and requires some sort of long term
and priority commitment from Renault, to make it all worth while.

Renaults official comment is that it would be difficult to implement
in view of the three year agreement currently in operation with
Williams. They clearly don't want to upset their main hope of immediate
championship success.

Apparently, if we wait until the 16th of March, the parties concerned
should have reached agreement -- or not -- and we will be told.

Terry B.

    You want real racing, do two things:
    
    1) Change the rules to curtail downforce, but leave the engines to
       the relatively unfettered development they currently enjoy.
    
    2) Make all the courses wider in key passing spots.
    
    You'd see driver skill back at the fore awright.  And the drivers would
    be so damned busy you'd never see a stick shift again!
    
    MrT

    
    re: .389
    
    Why not just impose a minimum ground clearance rule (measured at racing
    weight), to reduce ground effect.
    
    Mike H.
    

    With active suspension that would be easy.... press the button and
    arise Sir Williams.... on the track, back on the ground again!!!
    
    Hee-hee!

	It struck me that this year has started very like last year was after
	3/4 races.  That is, the Williams with a clear advantage and Mclaren
	waiting for the next version.  However, the big difference seems to be
	that Williams are much much more reliable and they too have a trick up
	their sleeves - ie their next version.  If the rest of the year proceeds
	like last year, then that will make it very close.

	Dave

    Re 389.
    Why not restrict the width of the tyres.
    
    Regs,
    
    Barry.
    

RE: .383

Jordan's main problem seems to be gearbox-related.  They miss gears, over-rev
the Yamaha engines, and then this engine abuse causes the engines to blow up.

The Mazda GTP car has an exhaust system cooling problem.  The reports on the
ESPN coverage of the IMSA Miami GP said that this problem had shown up during
testing, but it wasn't until they got on the track in Miami that they
realized how bad it was.  Idle the car for any length of time (such as the
leisurely [by F1 standards] IMSA pit stop) and the back end of the car
literally catches fire.  Not only does this tend to blow the engine, but it's
downright dangerous to have the car in pit lane.

--PSW

    Lella Lombardi, the Italian lady who competed in F1 and scored 0.5
    point, died of illness earlier this month. She was 48.

Heard the end of a report on the radio this morning which mentioned Prost
and March 15th. Has he managed to get a seat ??? 

    According to this mornings paper, the Ligier press officer said that
    Prost and Ligier will make an announcement monday 16th.

    Since no one has posted anything, can we correctly assume here in the
    States that there has been no Ligier/Prost announcement as indicated in
    .397?
    
    Thanks,
    
    	Barb
    

    According to VTX this morning there will be no Prost Ligier connection 
    for the time being
    
    Regards,
    JP
    PS Ferrari to have their first visit to the podium this weekend.
    
    :-)

    Thanks, JP.  Didn't think they'd come up with anything that they all
    could live with.  
    
    On to Mexico (Ferrari, huh?)

<><><><><><><><>  T h e   V O G O N   N e w s   S e r v i c e  <><><><><><><><>

 Edition : 2535               Monday 16-Mar-1992            Circulation : 8179 

VNS UK SPORTS REPORT:                             [Ken Merrick, VNS Sports Desk]
=====================                             [Valbonne, France            ]

::: MOTOR SPORT
     The Prost-Ligier discussions are at an end (at least for the present).
    In a surprise move, Ligier sponsors, the petrol company ELF, used the 
    French teletext system Minitel, to announce that the proposed Ligier-Prost
    team was a non-starter. The proposal for the team was that it would be
    50-50 split as Ligier-Prost for  1992, changing to Prost-Ligier for 1993
    and simply Team Prost for 1994. 
     The stumbling block appears to be the other partners - Elf and Renault 
    being reluctant to meet with Prost's demands, which included a 5-year 
    technical partnership with Renault and a six year sponsorship agreement 
    which would gaurentee him 2.5 milliard francs ($2.5 billion) and a 
    technical budget of 416 million francs a year (the current Ligier budget 
    is around 200 million francs). 
     Prost has also been connected with the Sauber F1 team, which has engaged
    Steve Nichols and Luigi Mazzola for 1993, and the John Barnard led Toyota
    F1 team. However, interviewed yesterday, he said that he would take this
    year as a sabbatical. For 1993, he several options and that he was ready to
    drive alongside Senna at McLaren.
                                                  

	I think Williams will triumph again in the high altitude.

	Ferrari not to have got their cooling problems sorted yet.

	McLaren to make up the numbers.

	A good result for Benneton as well.

    re .402   
    
    His words, not mine. I guess Ron has a few $$$ to spare as an
    incentive.

	It looks to me as if Prost was too ambitious in the 
	Ligier-Prost-Renault deal. Not for the usual reason of
	the driver wanting too much money (never Prosts problem)
	but in terms of wanting to go too far too quickly. The
	chance might not come again.

	Anybody know more about the Toyota-Barnard F1 effort referred
	to earlier?. Sounds as if it could be serious stuff.

	Predictions for Mexico -

	A vastly better race than the last one.

	Williams dominant.

	Senna struggling to keep the pack at bay.

	-John

================================================================================
Note 1557.405                Formula 1: 1992 Season                   405 of
405
LARVAE::LINCOLN_J                                    18 lines  17-MAR-1992
12:50
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	It looks to me as if Prost was too ambitious in the 
	Ligier-Prost-Renault deal. Not for the usual reason of
	the driver wanting too much money (never Prosts problem)
	but in terms of wanting to go too far too quickly. The
	chance might not come again.

This is interesting - the balance between planning for too much vs not enough. 
If he did not obtain sufficient and substantial resources, I think that even
Mr. Prost knows that he canNOT overcome everything and triumph no matter what -
especially after Ferrari, where he had "all the kings horses & all the kings
men" (and still couldn't get humpty dumpty back together again!)	;^)

... anybody heard what time (EST) ESPN is broadcasting Mexico, stateside?

thanks,
Mike Coughlin 

    re: .-1
    
    Sunday's race starts at 3pm (ET) but ESPN isn't showing it until
    midnight. Groan...
    
    Colin.

    
    
    	Prost will came back to race in 1993.
    
    
    					Alex

I saw Prost on late night tv news here and to summarise my undertsanding of 
his general sentiment - he wanted to create a FRENCH F1 team and that he had 
been disappointed that Ligier and others not specified were not of the same 
mind. He plans to take a sabbatical for 1 year and try again in 1993 

fwiw

Roger 

    RE:  a couple back complaining about ESPN telecast times.
    
    I don't like the idea of another midnite race (the CART race from
    Australia is being televised Saturday midnite), however, there is
    something to be said for tape delayed races.  Let me explain.
    
    I watched the initial telecast of the South African GP, then taped the
    replay ESPN had several days later at 4am. When watching the tape, it
    was difficult to believe that they were the same race.  On the taped
    version, there were more driver interviews, both when someone retired
    from the race, and even post race interviews; replays of spins back in
    the pack, etc.  The length of coverage was the same (two hours), but
    they showed more of the background stuff then the original "follow the
    leader" shots.                               
    
    All in the all, I found the tape delayed version much more
    entertaining.
    
    If ESPN shows an edited version (like the one described above) for the
    Mexican GP, it may be a more entertaining race.  And, at least from a
    Stateside point of view, as poor as you think ESPN coverage may be
    regarding their chosen time slots, they beat the heck out of the
    alternatives - - a major network doing the telecast or no telecast at
    all.
    
    Let's not bite the hand that entertains us.
    

    
    I *love* ESPN!  Where else could I see first-rate race coverage of F1,
    CART, IMSA and NHRA all in a weeks time.  So what if the CART and F1
    races are tape delay, go on your own media blackout for a day (or until
    you can watch the tape).  Another day surely can't hurt?
    
    I remember the dark days when we got to see one GP a year (Monaco on
    ABC) and network spent more time reporting on the parties and celebs
    than the race!
    
    - Nate

    Any idea what sort of viewing we'll get from the BBC this Sunday...
    is live coverage from Mexico/Brazil still a swearword?
    
    -Roy

    On the beeb there is an hour long program at 8.55 showing highlights
    plus the finish live. This is repeated at 4pm on Monday.
    
    Eurosport has the whole race, plus Friday and Saturday practice live as
    usual.
    
    Paul

> On the beeb there is an hour long program at 8.55 

That's a bit early for a Sunday morning!

/Dave.

    
>> On the beeb there is an hour long program at 8.55 

>That's a bit early for a Sunday morning!
    
    Should read 20:55 to 21:55.
    
    Steve

    Live on Eurosport at 19.30 (If you can believe Eurosport's advance
    schedules!). Surfer's Paradise CART race is on at 16:00 on Sky Sports
    (Who have also purchased the 1992 NASCAR rights - seems they're
    interested in more than bat and ball after all!).
    
    Mark

    Does anybody know "Inside Track" is being shown this year. I believe
    it was on Screensport last season and I thought it was excellent. I
    certainly didn't see an episode for Kyalami so I am wondering if it is
    still running ?
    
    ...Not only do you get the Beebs coverage of the Grand Prix on Sunday 
    evening, you also get the comments of James and Murray to help you
    through the program. I personally think the Beebs coverage has improved
    dramatically from a couple of seasons ago..
    
    Remeber the Hungarian Grand Prix from a few seasons back when Mansell
    lost a wheel nut during the race. During the 'live' coverage on Sunday 
    afternoon Murray reported the 'incident' as a fuel problem due to the 
    fact that the car was weaving down the track.
    
    After all had been revealed, the edited highlights in the evening had 
    Murray making the most stupid comment ---
    
    "Oh !! That's Mansell, he's weaving about the track...and that looks
    like a wheel nut come off the rear wheel !!!"
    
    I keep playing the tape back again and again and I'm sure I can't see 
    the wheel nut..(but my eyes are bad....;-))
    
    Thank goodness the coverage has improved since then...
    
    Rob
    

re.418:

I agree, I remember seeing the nut fly.

	Everyone saw the nut except Murray and James and the other
	noter. The nut behind the wheel was still intact though.

	-John

    To be fair to Murray and James (I never thought I'd say that!), please
    remember they're probably watching the whole thing on a 6-inch monitor,
    with part of the track in front of the window, the noise, etc, etc.
    
    JfK

    
    Well I must admit my eyesight is a bit dodgy ;-) plus the tape is
    fairly knackered....(what an excuse)..
    
    As I said I think the Beeb do a good job (improvements over the last 
    few years) and to have people like James Hunt involved is good...
    
    look at the 'interest' he generated with regards Patrese at Kyalami.
    
    Any news regards Inside Track ?
    
    Rob

    
    Re Hunt and Patrese.
    
    Personally I think the motor racing world can do without tabloid level
    'interest'. Hunt's knowledge of modern racing cars and circuuts is so far 
    out of date now as to make his 'expert' knowledge almost worthless.
    
    Mark

    
    When I mentioned 'interest' generated by Hunt (regards Patrese) I was
    really thinking of the intereset generated in this topic.
    
    However, I must admit I read the article in last weeks Autosport
    regarding the 'Hunt remarks' and found the article quite enlightening.
    
    I also agree that there are numerous occasions when his 'expert
    knowledge' must be seriously questioned , just by listening to what
    he says.
    
    I still think it's interesting though ;-)
    
    
    Rob

    
    I read the article in Autosport too, but all I can say after reading it
    is that I'll be watching the GP on Eurosport (even if their commentator
    doesn't know a Williams from an Escort!) and I won't be buying Autosport 
    instead of MN in future!
    
    It smacked of a bit of mutual admiration to me!
    
    Mark

    Re -1
    
    Come on Mark, the only reason you buy MN is that they hate the boy
    Ayrton and Autosport like McNish! :-)
    
    Anyway, I would agree that James was right in his observation, but
    laboured the point to excess.
    
    As for Mexico, Williams again I think, but with McLaren a lot closer,
    and maybe Ferrari lasting the whole race. I also think Brundle could be
    quite hot trying to make up for his spin in SA.
    
    Prediction:
    
    Mansell
    Senna
    Patrese
    Capelli
    Schumacher
    Berger
    
    
    Probably totally wrong!
    
    Paul

    folks,
    
    much as I hate to say it....  I won't. The Williams car not driven by
    Patrese will win but after a hectic fight with Patrese.
    
    Third (or even second) will be a battle between the Ferrari of Alesi
    and Senna. Im basing this opinion on the speed of the Ferrari at Kylami
    and the fact that they ran out of steam (no more cooling fluid 8-:).
    
    I believe that they can fix that problem.
    Schumacher will no doubt act the catalyst in the final placings.
    
    The start of the race probably will see the Williams and McLaren
    running away from the field but as the cars get lighter the finesse of
    the Ferrari will come into play.
    
    Practice tonight to see Schumacher, Senna, Alesi and Mansell up there.
    
    		 George Frost 

    I watched the live qualifying session last night on Eurosport, who
    didn't have a feed for the first 15 minutes or so.
    
    They eventually got one, just in time to show Senna lose it on the
    Esses, and thump the concrete wall very hard.
    
    It took nearly 10 minutes to get him out, but he didn't look too bad.
    
    Qualifying then restarted, with a good battle betweeb Schumacker and
    Mansell, who eventually got down to 1.16.3 or thereabouts, for about 
    a second's lead. Patrese was third.
    
    Senna's time before his off had in in a non-qualifying position, and
    it's still unclear whether he's fit to try again or not tonight.
    
    The Italian lady didn't post a time at all, and some-else was credited
    with a 49 minute lap, according to Beeb Ceefax this morning!
    
    I'll be back home by 7:00 pm tonight to watch final qualifying, and the
    race is on live on Sunday night.
    
    Don't forget, you can get a dish fitted in 48 hours at the moment,
    see the Cricket world cup live, and get Eurosport for free!
    
    Peter.
    
    

Results:-

Mansell, Patrese, Schumacher.

Another 1-2 triumph for Williams-Renault (Mansell start-to-finish-and-is-
this-getting-boring-or-what ?). A brave drive by a badly briused Senna,
3rd until having to retire. Benneton-Ford look like they've arrived.
Ferrari unlucky/unreliable. Lotus in 6th. Brundle unlucky with someone's
visor getting stuck in his radiator...

Drive of the day/week-end - Senna.

    
>	What is the magic Lotus drivers have found now? In last 
>	season they were hardly ever in the group of best ten. 
    
    Its called a Ford HB!
    
    But seriously, it was another magic driver by Herbert, after getting
    punted down to 16th on the first lap, to finish 7th was some drive!
    
    It really loooks like the Tyrrell is a well balanced car again, now
    that it uses the Ilmor V10 instead of the Mugan (aka Honda) V10.
    
    What happened to the Footworks?  They showed better in SA.
    
    Looks like Ferrari and Ligier could soon become second division class
    mates!!
    
    Steve

    I don't know...
    
    When Senna wins loads of races, it's "skilful exhibition driving": when
    Mansell wins, it's "boring"
    
    (  :-) )
    
    
    |SD

RE: .431

>>Ferrari unlucky/unreliable. 

Yes - and slow (11th and 20th on the grid).

I see that Mansell was his usual irresponsible self yesterday. He threw the car
so recklessly up on the curbs that he cracked his wing mirror - don't see what
anyone sees in the guy. He has such a technical superiority and can only finish
20 seconds ahead of and underpowered old model Benetton.

Berger drove very well - salvaged something for McLaren. He raced considerably
faster than his practice time. De Cesaris went well as well (apart from not
being keen on letting people lap him) - would be great if the Ilmor comes
good... 

Cheers

Steve

    Pretty dull race apart from Berger & Brundle's tussle, but still
    impressive from the Williams point of view. Bad luck on Senna after
    Friday. Eurosport were very impressive all weekend though...
    
    Friday - kept program running to the end of practice even after Senna's
    shunt
    
    Sunday - showed morning warm up live and some good interviews before the
    race, plus not too many adverts in the race itself.
    
    Joke of a performance from Ferrari in qualifying, but Capelli was
    unlucky at the start, and usually races better than he qualifies. Great
    drives from the Lotus lads and from de Cesaris. I bet McLaren will be
    pounding the road at Silverstone in the next week. Planning 6 cars at
    Brazil!! 3 old and 3 new. Should be interesting.
    
    Paul

    
    And that Patrese is a bloody disgrace. Give his drive to Gerry
    Marshall, I say! 
    
    James.
    
    PS Thanks to Mark Saxby for lending me his account! :^)

YAWN!!!!


Wake me up when they have a competitive race.


Best Murray/James of the day:;

Murray: AND MANSELL HAS A CRACKED wing mirror, I don't know how a stone
could have hit the glass on this side and broke it

James: Actually Murray, the force of it hitting the other side probably
cracked it.

	Re: .434
	>When Senna wins loads of races, it's "skilful exhibition driving": when
	>Mansell wins, it's "boring"

	I think it's boring either way. The only real racing was about places 
	6-10. And of course those were not shown on TV.

	I really hope McLaren and Ferrari will get themselves back together
	again so that we could see some racing.

	- Jyri -

    
    Yep, it's dull, doesn't matter who's winning.
    
    Now, those of us lucky enough to have a Satellite dish got to see some
    real racing yesterday as Sky Sports (formally known as the Bat and Ball
    channel and not worth a light to motorsports fans) showed the Surfer's
    Paradise CART race, complete with overtaking, close racing and exciting
    in car camera shots!
    
    If you enjoy motorsports on TV and don't have a satellite dish, you
    really are doing yourself a dis(h?)-service!
    
    Mark

    mark,
    
    Wrong place to discuss it really, but I watched the CART race as well,
    and while I agree there was lots of incident, it all seems so
    manufactured with the yellows etc. Why not just have a 20 lap sprint
    'cos that's what really happened. We saw a Trans Am race live as a warm
    up for the US GP a couple of years back, and it was soooo boring in the
    flesh 'cos there were no adverts to cut out the endless slow laps under
    the yellows. Until the flags came out yesterday, it was basically the
    Mike'n'Al show with no one else really with them. 
    
    F1 has always had dominant teams, Ferrari, Mercedes & Alfa in the 40's
    and 50's, Lotus in '63, 65, 70, 78 , Williams in the Honda turbo era
    and recently McLaren. The best racing has always been in the midfield
    which never gets shown. Its the same in most televised motor-racing.
    The director slavishly shows the leaders because thats what Joe Public
    expect to see, and what Camel/Marlboro./ICI etc expect for their
    investment. If they showed Herbert of de Cesaris charging through the
    fiweld, people might not notice the sponsors!
    
    Lots of things happen in even the most superficially dull GP when you
    get to see the whole field, its just that the TV viewer seldom gets to
    see it.
    
    Paul

    
    You have a point about the manufactured nature of CART, but even before
    the flags there was a decent two way fight for the lead (it's a long
    time since I've seen many of those in F1!) and once the rain came into
    play it was all change.
    
    I can well imagine you might find Trans Am boring with yellow flag
    laps, but there's  no doubt that at the end of the day they have more
    exciting racing than F1/F3000.
    
    As for having 20 lap races, why not? Unless the length of the race adds 
    something (multi driver/endurance element) what's the point of having a 
    long race. Yesterday's GP would have been a damned sight more exciting
    if it'd been a 30 lap dash instead of 69 laps of tedium, I bet!
    
    Maybe the TV should show the mid-field runners more (De Crasheris'
    progress must have been interesting yeterday), but who really cares if 
    the mid-tail-enders are having a good race? The action that matters is
    at the front. No-one goes to see a Ligier-Brabham dice do they?
    
    Mark
    
    PS I've said it before, but if you just want to see racing, go to a
    clubbie/national meeting instead of watching obscene amounts of money 
    being spent on creating tedious parades (and being spent on watching
    them!).

	It seems that three teams in particular didn't take well
	to the bumps - March, Ligier and Ferrari - all well down
	on three weeks ago.

	I got the impression that the Williams cars were being
	pushed pretty hard on this occasion, so maybe there's hope
	yet of more competition up front. On form so far this may
	come from Benetton as much as McLaren. Caught an item on the
	news of a test session with the new McLaren. The car does not
	appear to be radically different from the current version
	but does feature revised engine and the semi-auto gearbox.
	The pictures showed normal suspension though. The test didn't
	seem to be very conclusive (it was wet) and Senna/Berger were
	very non-commital about it - "Too early to say, needs more 
	evaluation" which I translate as 'Well it's not as good as the
	old one yet but we're hopeful'.

	Apparently Ford (Cosworth) have been radically revising the HB
	with pneumatic valves etc. What chance that the V12 hasn't shown
	well and they're going with the V8, leaving the V12 quietly on the
	shelf as a reserve.

	If Lotus really do have 43Kg of excess weight to lose then they
	surely have some upward progress to make yet, and I look forward 
	to seeing it.

	I agree about the poor TV direction, how I wish they would just
	hold one shot occasionally such that we could see what's happening
	down the field. And yes If you want to see entertaining cut and
	thrust type racing watch the minor events, historic events, one
	make classes etc. but GPs are great for spectacle.

	-John

RE: -.1

McLaren are working on re-active suspension - but are some way away yet.
Electronically their new car has a "wire less" accelerator pedal and the
gearbox electronics work off the same chip as the engine management system -
possiblly someone thinks that they can go to a fully automatic gearbox?

Wonder what Philip Morris make of a Camel 1-2-3? I bet they've really got the
hump this morning...

Cheers

Steve

Yes, it is turning into a bit of a tedious carnival procession for and
on behalf of Camel and Renault and Canon, but...

Isn't it good to see McLaren getting a taste of their own medicine?

Terry Williams!

    I saw the Surfers' Paridise race and I found it more entertaining than
    the F1 parade. Yes, you can argue that the full course yellows
    "manufacture" a bit of the closeness but there are elements in CART
    that have been missing in F1 for quite a while: passing, close
    qualifying and competition. I've been to both F1 and CART, and have
    followed both on tv and in the press. I love the technology I see in F1
    but I have seen many more exciting races (and in race battles) in CART
    in any one season than in all of F1 lately.
    
    BTW, I think the full course yellows are a real bore but there doen't
    seem to be a safe way to handle abandoned cars on a street course. (I
    hate street courses.) But check out the Indy cars on a 1 mile oval -
    like the upcoming Phoenix race, or Nazareth or New Hampshire - and you
    will have some fun. Lots more "racing" in two hours than a season of
    F1.
    
    Paul
    

    I attend "clubbies" most weekends over the summer either timekeeping or
    watching, and the quality of "racing" is generally pretty high.
    Howeverr, nothing can take away the thrill in the stomach of 26 F1 cars
    pulling away off the grid. The problem appears to be finance related as
    only two or three teams can afford to produce competitive cars at the
    moment. From this perspective, the possible banning of tobacco
    advertising may be a very good thing as it will cut the budgets
    available dramatically.
    
    As for Indy Car on a one mile oval - yeuch, boredom incarnate. Yes they
    go very fast, yes there is some overtaking, but its so repetitive! As
    for yellows to get rid of cars on street circuits - F1 manages pretty
    well without them by using cranes!
    
    For all it's current lack of chasing at the front, F1 is the pinnacle,
    even the CART drivers admit it. There is a fair amount of deadwood, but
    I'd back Mansell, Senna, Patrese, Prost, Schumacher etc against anybody
    in anything, its justa shame that we hardly ever see them in anything
    other than a GP car.
    
    Paul

	Anyone know what happened to the Jordans?  Also, why did Senna retire?

	Dave
	
	Also, whoever said that the drive of the weekend was Senna's is a tad
	myopic.  Brave maybe, the best, nope.

Actually , I said I thought that Senna's drive was the best. Mainly because it
was courageous.

The Renault's seemed to lack a little power at the high altitude. Berger did
set fastest lap didn't he ?

The smoothness of the in-car shots from the Williams are really impressive.

Actually I don't mind a little Williams/Renault boredom, makes a change from
the McLaren sort. However, I hope Ferrari/Benneton/McLaren can provide close
racing within the next few outings.

Drivers:		Manufacturers

Mansell		20	Williams	32
Patrese		12	McLaren		 9
Schumacher	 7	Benneton	 7
Berger		 5	
Senna		 4

    re: 447
    Paul - I sure wouldn't disagree with you on anumber of points,
    especially the spectacle of F1. I also agree that the drivers who make
    it to the very top of F1 - those you named - could drive just about
    anything anywhere. But it's grown all too boring. You know, you made an
    interesting point. If Europe bans the tabacco companies from
    advertising, a very large sum of money would disappear from the sport.
    What would happen? Would there be a larger number of competitive teams
    simply because the budgets would be more equal from team to team? Hmmm?
    
    I sure like the idea of new technologies in the sport. It's a bit like
    challenging someone with a set of rules and encouraging them to "think
    outside the 9 dots". The F1 engineers are constantly coming up with new
    ways to create down force, reduce drag, etc. But the money has gotten
    obscene. I'd rather go to a club race and watch guys with no budget go
    for it.
    
    Paul
    

RE: -.1

Berger lapped in a time considerably quicker than his qualifying best.
Apparently this is normal - last year Mansell lapped within a fraction of the
pole time of Patrese - the circuit gets much faster as more rubber
is put down. Berger was trying to put pressure on Schumacher at the time.

I think that the Williams could have gone faster - they just didn't need to...

Steve

RE: .435

>I see that Mansell was his usual irresponsible self yesterday. He threw the car
>so recklessly up on the curbs that he cracked his wing mirror - don't see what
>anyone sees in the guy.

Mansell's mirror was cracked when it was hit by debris kicked up from the
road.  ESPN did a slow-motion replay that very clearly showed a small black
something (stone? tire marble?) travel up off the pavement and hit the mirror
from behind (i.e., the backside of the mirror, facing forward as the car
travels), whereupon the mirror cracked.

--PSW

    re: .-1

    .435 was being just a tad sarcastic. One day you Americans will learn
    English humour :-)

    I saw the ESPN slow-mo too. The small black piece of rubber reminded me
    of a squash ball, and anyone who's ever been hit by a squash ball can
    imagine the damage one could do if traveling at 150mph (ok, so the
    piece of rubber was probably stationary and the car moving at 150mph,
    same difference). Only squash balls are hollow!
    
    Colin.

    
    Paul,
    
    What's such a big deal about a field of F1 cars? I visited a GP many
    moons ago and I've seen F1 cars testing and really they're just like 
    big F3 cars - no big deal. You may consider there's nothing like F1s,
    but your feeling is not the only view there is. F1 has been heavily
    promoted on TV, that's why people view F1 as 'the business'. A couple
    of years ago (I haven't seen more recent figures) the BTCC coverage
    attracted a lot more viewers than Grand Prix and the only reason GPs 
    attract so many 'paying' spectators is because a lot of people who go
    to GPs wouldn't know one end of a racing car from the other!
    
    I agree that oval racing is something of an acquired taste (all those
    Americans can't be wrong can they?), and it's not something I really
    enjoy, but F1 doesn't now, and hasn't for a very long time, cut the 
    mustard as a _racing_ formula, it's more like watching a high speed 
    version of Tomorrow's World, where the technological advances allow
    anyone to win!
    
    Mark

>>The Renault's seemed to lack a little power at the high altitude. Berger did
>>set fastest lap didn't he ?
    
    If that was lacking power for Renault what will happen when they regain
    it ?
    
    As for fastest lap, I thought that went to Mansell at 1"18'...
    
    
    Shaun

    Interesting article in today's Independant:
    
    Bernard Dudot, tech director of Renault "If we had Prost and Mansell,
    we would have a fantastic driver line up.
    
    if Nigel wins the world championship we would like him to stay. But it
    would also be nice to have Prost with us.

Re: Note 1557.447 by YUPPY::PATEMAN 

 >   ...................................................................As
 >   for yellows to get rid of cars on street circuits - F1 manages pretty
 >   well without them by using cranes!
 
I'm pretty sure the reason cranes weren't used in (for example) the
Surfer's Paradise IndyCar race is because, unlike F1, a car may be towed
back to the pits, repaired and restarted.  In addition, the points are paid
much deeper into the finishing order than the top 6 of F1.

								Mike

    
    In a perfect world we would have technically fascinating machinery and
    close competitive racing on interesting racing circuits.  The engineers
    would be stretched to their limits, the drivers would be pumped up with
    the adrenaline rush of side by side action and the fans would have a
    visceral kick in the pants from watching it all.
    
    It's a far from perfect world.  Evidence of this is the proliferation
    of sh*!!y street circuits in North America and the exclusion of Brands
    Hatch from the World Championship. We here in the US can't even build/
    maintain one closed road course suitable for a GP.
    
    As a spectator the best *compromise* for my money is CART, on a road course
    or a 1 mile oval.  As much as I love the potetnial that F1 holds out for
    a spectator it all too often fails to deliver value for my dollar.  I
    can get a dose of technology on a test day, or during qualifying.  When
    I pay money to see a race I want to see a race, not a procession.
    
    I couldn't stand to watch either the Surfer's Paradise race or the
    Mexican GP without fast-forwarding through great gobs of tedium. But I'm
    a junkie so I keep watching, and hoping.
    
    - Nate

I tried to set the tone of reply # .435 in the title - sorry if I was a bit
obscure. 

Steve

What I meant about the Renault's being a little down on power was the difference
between Mexico and Kalaymi where the Renauilt power advantage was obvious. It
*was* Berger who set fastest lap. The V12's probably have more of a power
advanntage over the V10's at high altitude.

    Crisis and Panic.
      
    - Ferrari officials have declared that the team were about to pack all
      equipment and fly back home after the Friday practice. Someone must
      have convinced them to stay and race, but morale was very low.
    
      Alesi has been interviewed just before the start. He declared that
      the team had worked at the factory and at Mugello on solving the oil
      tank problem. He thought they had solved it. Now at Mexico the
      problem occurs again. The reason might well be that some jerk packed
      the wrong oil tanks ...
    
    - Ligier got in exactly the same ambiance. The boss asked both Frank
      Dernie and Gerard Ducarouge to fly back to Magny-Cours in emergency in
      order to start a crisis task force no later than Sunday.
    
      What happened is that aerodynamics did not work for both cars, Boutsen
      qualifying 23rd and Comas 26th. One strong rumour is that Ligier will
      try a last modification (test session Sun 29-March at Paul Ricard) and
      if nothing happens he will quit, now that negotiations with Prost
      have collapsed. Another rumour says that Boutsen will be replaced by
      Piquet asap.

    As Patrick noted, there are no qualies this year. Has anyone missed
    them?
    
    Paul
    

What the current model numbers of the cars racing this year?

McLaren is still using the MP4/6 until Spain?

Williams is FW14 or is it now FW15?

Trying to keep up-to-date records....

Thanks
Dave

RE: .465

Senna and Patrese have both urged that quallies be brought back.  However,
a vote of the teams taken at Mexico was 15-1 in favor of not having special
qualifying tyres.  Does anybody know which team voted in favor of quallies?

--PSW

The Williams chassis currently is the FW14.  The FW15 is to be introduced soon.

--PSW

I expect that Senna and Patrese miss qualifying tyres because of their supreme
expertise at using them...

I, for one, think that F1 is better off without them, because of the greater
colleration between qualifying speed and circuit speed and lap records.

Mind you, the sight of Senna on the limit doing an unbleieveably fast lap is
one of the great sights in motorsport.

    Having now got the chance to watch qualifying live on Eurosport, it is
    incredibly boring without qualies. The sense of anticipation at
    Silverstone last year when Senna and Mansell traded pole on the
    Saturday session was incredible.
    
    I also think that the lack of qualies means it is more dangerous as
    there are more cars on the track all the time, and hence more chances
    for slow runners moving over into the hotshots.
    
    Just an opinion tho.....
    
    
    Paul

    re - 1 
    
    I agree, there is the added danger. It should make qualification at 
    Monaco very interesting.
    
    Ken

    
    In this week's MN article by Nigel Mansell, he agrees that it would be
    good to see a return to qualifying tyres for much the reasons already
    stated. 
    
    However, he concedes that with no competition Goodyear have no reason to
    spend the money producing the tyres and points out that F1 would be in
    trouble without Goodyear's involvement (Would another manufacturer take
    it on?).
    
    I,too, watched the qualifying live on Eurosport, but I didn't feel that
    the drama had gone. Silverstone last year was, by general concensus, a 
    pretty dramatic occassion, but I still felt the tension rise as
    Schumacher got his time down to Mansell's (Didn't he actually get the
    pole for a bit?) and then Mansell stormed around to retake it. 
    
    Then again I enjoy watching giant slalom skiing too! :^)
    
    Mark 

How many sets of tires can they use for qualifying now?  Part of the problem with
the qualifiers was that they had two sets, and they each lasted for only a few
laps.  They were pretty much comitted on those laps, because if they backed off,
that was it, no good qualification time.  If they have more tires to use, and the
tires last longer, they can have tries at a good lap.

Dave

    
    Two sets, but Mansell reckons you can now have 20 'fast' laps a
    session!
    
    Mark

    
    I don't think there's too much wrong with qualifying as it currently
    is. I agree with the danger factor with regards more cars on the track
    at once, but those are the conditions you will see during the race.
    
    With regards greater speed differential between cars, you are probably
    more likely to see that with the old system, whereas currently you'll
    have 'most' cars that are on the circuit going at 'similar' speeds.
    
    Having said that it will be interesting to see the likes of Mansell
    driving around Monaco with people like Amati (if the car gets on to 
    the track).
    
    I reckon you'll still see the 'excitement' of drivers trading pole times 
    with each other, and as far as the paying spectator goes.. they get
    more driving for their money.
    
    Rob

What's wrong with them extending practice by a few hours ? This would make
qualifying more of an event in it's own right, and also lessen the "Amati"
factor for the fast people.

RE: .476

Qualifying serves two purposes: (1) to pare down the grid to manageable size
by weeding out those drivers too slow to have any chance of winning the race,
and (2) to set the starting grid so that the fastest drivers (presumably with
the best chance of winning the race) are at the front and the slower drivers
at the back.  Under actual race conditions, there are going to be slower
drivers who must be passed, so it is a fair test of a driver's actual racing
speed for the race to have such drivers on the course during qualifying.

--PSW

Lovely re-passing manouver by Herbert on Berger. Herbert had a great race, pity
about the dnf.

What's made the difference at Lotus this year ? The commentators made a lot
of this being an old overweight car and yet it was clearly very competitive.
What changes have Lotus made to the car this year ?

RE: -.1

Didn't they get Jordan's position in the Ford's pecking order 
(i.e. second behind Benetton) - I think that would make
a difference.

    
>Lovely re-passing manouver by Herbert on Berger. Herbert had a great race, pity
>about the dnf.

    Didn't see that one ... oh you mean Brundle not Herbert.
    
    Apparantly the benetton got a tear off strip stuck over an oil radiator
    and the engine cooked itself!
    
>What's made the difference at Lotus this year ? The commentators made a lot
>of this being an old overweight car and yet it was clearly very competitive.
>What changes have Lotus made to the car this year ?
    
    This years Lotus is the 1990 lotus driven by Derek Warick and Martin
    Donelly which had a Lambo V12 engine, (102) but was madified to take an
    Isuzu V12, for testing of said engine (102C), but has been modified
    again to take the Ford HB (102D).  Apparantly during these changes they
    have radically changed the rear suspension, which has made a huge
    difference.
    
    Roll on Spain when the new 107 comes out to play .... wonder what it'll
    look like?
    
    
    Steve (lotus supported to the hilt!)
    

Yeh sorry - Brundle...

    Perry McCarthy is one of those British drivers who can drive a bad car,
    make it look good, but never gets a chance to drive a good one.
    
    He has been racing for Spice in IMSA in recent season and has often
    outqualified and outraced the likes of Nissan and Jaguar (usually until
    the car broke).
    
    He has also done a couple of test sessions (and I think practice) in 
    F3000 carsw and shown well, but he never seems to have the money to
    race in anything serious.
    
    Mark
    
    PS Judging by his column in MN last year he also has a great sense of 
    humour!

	Apparently McLaren are taking both old and new cars to Brazil,
	making six in all. Could almost have an all McLaren race with
	that many.

	Brazil means back to sea level. Whether this will make much
	difference to the pecking order has yet to be seen but there
	must be some engines that handled altitude better than others.

	Will it be a Mansell hat-trick?. Can Benetton close in on the
	Williams?. Will the new McLaren make its debut?. Can Ferrari
	finish a race?. I think the answer to these is 'probably'.

	-John

    
    It is _said_ that the Benneton's and Tyrrell's HBs were one of those
    engines which could 'breath' better at high altitude. Maybe these teams
    will fade away a bit?
    
    Mark

    Just an FYI for us State-siders.  ESPN is televising the Brazilian GP
    at midnite Sunday.  What's with these guys and midnite?  Do they want
    us all to turn into pumpkins, or did they buy stock in a VCR
    manufacturing company?

    
    
>>    It is _said_ that the Benneton's and Tyrrell's HBs were one of those
>>    engines which could 'breath' better at high altitude. Maybe these teams
>>    will fade away a bit?
    
    Probably didn't quite say that!
    
    Tyrrells (and March) use the Ilmor V10, its Lotus and Fondmetal which 
    also use the HB other than Benetton.
    
    Steve_Mr_Accuracy_monitor!

    One team is known to have engine problems: Ferrari
    
    Others have aerodynamics problems (sides and flat bottom rear      
    end): McLaren, Ligier, March, ....
    
    Williams and Benetton clearly have their act together.
    
    Kyalami (1800m, 6000ft) and Mexico (2100m, 7000ft) are high altitude
    circuits. I wonder if the difficult aerodynamics balance will still be
    there at sea level.

    
    Re .487
    
    I can't get used to these Tyrrells NOT having Ford engines (it was
    indeed BennyTown and LOUTS!). That's the second time (at least) that
    I've entered a note stating that Tyrrell have HBs!
    
    A post-it is being stuck to my terminal saying....
    
    TYRRELLS HAVE ILMOR ENGINES!!!! NOT FORDS!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    Mark

    The Ferrari team has spent a few days at the NARDO track in order to
    better understand how their F92A car performs. Alesi has covered 38
    laps (times 13km). All spring settings, aileron settings, ride heights
    have been tested. Postlethwaite and Migeot are reported to be satisfied
    with what they saw. 
    
    The chassis (weight distribution) works well and the aerodynamics are
    OK.
    
    They're left with engine problems. Time was too short to get
    modifications into the 1992 version of the V12. 
    
    For this week's race they'll switch back to 1991 engines, yes, the ones 
    used by Scuderia Italia.   
                     

    The MP4/7A will have the new Honda engine-gearbox system. The new V12
    is taking care of aerodynmics requirements. Its angle is 75 deg instead
    of 65 (or 60 sometimes). It implements the Renault pneumatic valve
    spring system (like the new series 6 Ford HB).
    
    The gearbox (integral block combined with the engine for stress
    reasons) is pure Honda. Senna/Berger will be able to shift gears up
    without lifting their right foot (provided they did it before ...).
    That answers the questions about whose design will be chosen: Weissman,
    McLaren or Honda. It's Honda's.
    

    I drove around the Monaco Grand Prix circuit last night. They are
    resurfacing the entire stretch between Casino Square and the tunnel...
    The part by the harbour before the hairpin is very bumpy...I hope
    that it receives some attention too.
    

    I thought I would pass along a little rumor I picked up from a local
    newspaper.  It says that Nicki Lauda is sseking to buy out Schumacher's
    contract with Benetton and drop him into car #27....Interesting isn't
    it. 
    
    Now for the predictions.  Nigel #1 and Senna to finish #2 and Ferrari
    to have both cars cross the finish line.
    Regards,
    JP

    Actually the article said that Alesi would be replaced.
    
    What Ferrari needs is another French Canadian who can win even in the
    worst of cars.
    
    regards,
    JP

    
    Madness!
    
    Mark

    Has pre-qualifying happened yet (At all)?
    
    Did Perry McCarthy get through? (Doubtfull I'd guess, but...)
    
    When I replied to the note asking who he was I didn't realise he'd
    got an F1 seat. He probably deserves it more than a lot of other people
    in F1, but how did he get a Superlicence?
    
    Mark

    Friday qualifier results..
    
    
    
    Mansell		1.15.703
    Patrese		1.17.591
    Schumaker		1.18.???
    Martini		1.18.254
    Berger		1.19.277 (new car)
    Alesi		1.19.340
    Decesari		1.19.341(?)
    Modena		1.19.344
    Senna		1.19.358 (new car)
    Brundle		1.19.488
    Alboreto		?
    Comas		?
    Capeli
    
    
         Marco Arronque
    	Sao Paulo  Brazil

    re .498 by VAXSPO::ARRONQUE
    
    Keep the info coming!
    
    - Jyri -

RE: 497

It would appear that he didn't get that coveted Super Licence...
...didn't even get out to pre-qualify.

The report in CEEFAX hinted at Perry being just slightly miffed.


terry B

1.	N. Mansell	Williams-Renault
2.	R. Patrese	Williams-Renault	29sec
3.	M. Schumacher	Benneton-Ford		1 lap
4.	J. Alesi	Ferrari			1 lap
5.	I. Capelli	Ferrari			1 lap
6.	M. Alboreto	Footwork		1 lap

Another dominant performance by Williams after their surperb qualifying. 
Disaster for McLaren. Another 3rd for Schumacher - obviously this is no 
flash-in-the-pan. The old engines make a difference for Ferrari. And a 
point for Footwork !

Trivia queston: When was the last time in F1 that the same drivers from the 
same team finished 1-2 3 successive times ?


Drivers:		Manufacturers:

Mansell		30	Williams-Renault	48
Patrese		18	Benneton-Ford		12
Schumacher	12	McLaren-Honda		 9
Berger		 5	Ferrari			 7	
Senna		 4
Alesi		 4

    
    Another exhibition of follow the leader style racing. Lots of stupid
    accidents, including Mansells practice accident. McLaren must be
    learning how it feels to have to develope something totally new rather
    than update an old design. I thought the MP4/7 was going to be good in
    the race. When on saturday Senna came out in the car and stormed up the
    field in practice,coming all the way from 12th to 3rd. Alas the one
    thing that testing never does , push the car as hard as it is during a
    race, showed up some weaknesses.
    
    
    I'm still puzzled how Ms.G.Amati got a super licence. I thought , maybe
    italy are not a strick on licensing as others, that to get a super
    license the driver had to have shown well in international F3000 or
    like Schumacher who had shown very well in international sportscar.
    At the present showing , some 4 seconds or slower off the slowest car on
    the grid, and even seconds adrift the next slowest non qualifier, Makes
    you wonder what she's doing in F1. Did she bring big bucks to
    Brabham???? 
    
    Seems almost pointless in being there, Being 10 seconds of the leader's
    pace and 5 of the slowest is a bit like racing backwards.
    
    
    Garry

	So, where are all the Senna fans and Mansell knockers?  It's gone a tad
	quiet from the "Senna is God, Mansell is a whinger" crowd.

	Mansell and Senna are in almost the reverse of last year's positions 
	after three races.  There are some differences, Williams have a new 
	engine (more rather than less powerful) and chassis in reserve.  I have
	no doubt that Mclaren will be working double shifts to get everything
	right for the next race.

	Dave

    Ref Amati
    
    She brought around $2m in sponsorship, but apparantly gets no track
    time other than race weekends, not conducive to gaining F1 experience.
    
    Ref Senna/Mansell
    
    mansell is making the most of a large car superiority, plus driving
    with the knowledge that if he doesn't win this year, he could be out in
    the cold next year with Prost and Senna probably after his Williams
    seat. Senna won last year with a very uncompetitive car and is probably
    the best guy at doing that.
    
    McHonda have got 4 weeks to get the MP4/7 sorted, plus (probably)
    integrate the reactive ride system. I reckon Senna, Berger, Blundell
    and McNish are going to be doing a lot of miles between then and now.
    
    Paul

Yes you are right! Mansell still whinges! Look at the way he carried on after
the Senna incident in practice. "Just a misunderstanding" hah! We all know what
he really meant.

/Dave.

    >	So, where are all the Senna fans and Mansell knockers?  It's gone a tad
    >	quiet from the "Senna is God, Mansell is a whinger" crowd.
    
    No reasons to worry yet (as a Senna fan). Senna is still 3 titles
    ahead. In terms of poles I don't know, but I think it will be very
    difficult for any driver to come close to Senna's record. One the other
    hand Mansell doesn't have the touch to get the title. During
    practice and after having a pole he kept trying to get a better time.
    Maybe good for the crowd but not very wise - and that showed when he
    hit the concrete after trying to overtake Senna when the practice
    session was about to end... During the race he and Patrese were racing
    each other, and John Watson (Eurosport) saying that Patrese should let
    him pass, because he is no 1 in the team. I thought that someone like
    Mansell wouldn't need this kind of strategy.
    
    Anyway I am confident that Mclaren will get the new car competitive and
    then we will be able to watch real races. So in my opinion Senna is
    still God... and Mansell and Patrese happen to have the most advanced
    and competitive car this season has seen so far.
 
    RUI 

    Re Last couple.
    
    Senna showed yesterday what he does with a really uncompetitive car...
    he gives up!!!! He looked like a very rattled man this weekend, no way
    to win anything.
    
    Nice to see Brundle pass Senna again after all these years! :^) (Pity 
    he buggered it up with a desperate lunge past Alesi).
    
    Good to see the Ferraris at least finish. Sad to see Herbert wiped out
    by the French National Comic team!
    
    Boring, in the extreme, to watch Patrese and Mansell doing a second
    encore to their first race performance.
    
    I reckon McHonda will bounce back, but not to their previously all
    conquering level. I'll probably kill his chances, but this is the
    year Mansell _HAS_ to win the championship and I think he looks like a 
    man who will do just that.
    
    Williams have the car, Renault has the engine and Mansell seems to have
    got himself in the right frame of mind (even his tangle with Senna,
    which looked like a severe case of successful winding up of Senna to
    me, not upsetting him enough to prevent another walkaway win).
    
    Watch out for RED 1!!!!!
    
    Mark

    re: .508
    
    >                        -< Senna is still no 1 >-
    
    > then we will be able to watch real races. So in my opinion Senna is
    > still God... and Mansell and Patrese happen to have the most advanced
    
    Some of us are old enough to remember Fangio & Moss.
    
    Senna, God ! -- a VERY minor deity.
    
    Mike H.
    

    I am still not a Senna or Mansell fan. I still think that Prost shows
    them all up.
    
    Mansell for me again made a damned fool of himself trying to overtake
    Senna just 1 min from the end of qualif time on Saturday........what
    for?
    Never mind the polemic of 'was Senna to blame etc.' At the time of the 
    "incident" Mansell was nearly THREE second ahead on the pole of the
    nearest competitor barring Patrese. Mansell was NOT on a fast
    qualifying lap - he had just finished one, that was why Senna overtook
    him.
    Patrese was not on the track at the time so whatever way you cut it 
    Mansell could not have been dislodged from the pole. Odds were better
    to 1000 to 1 that Patrese could have been dislodged either....so why do it?
    
    My bet is that when Senna roared past Mansell's gorge rose 'he can't do
    that to me, cheeky bugger' and he was after him in a flash. Tried to
    duck in on the first part of the double right-left-right, didn't make it
    saw red, tried to go on the outside, too wide, left the sticky part of
    the surface and gently spun out. The cars did not touch at any time,
    nor as far as I can see was there any danger of them touching. 
    Should anybody want to see the ten minutes preceeding the 'incident',
    and the 'incident' itself I will be happy to make a copy available.
    
    To Senna: In the post race winners interview Schumacher laid into Senna
    in no uncertain terms.
    His sentiment was that Senna was going reasonably well to start and
    Schumacher was trying to get past....that was evident from the footage.
    Schumacher then said that Senna started 'Playing Games, slowed right
    down, accelerated rapidly again, wouldn't let anybody through etc. "I do 
    not expect a three times world champion to use this kind of behaviour....
    I am very angry about this" '.
    Again it was obvious from the footage that something was happening. My
    personal thoughts at the time were that Senna was having selector
    troubles, but one cannot dismiss a peer account of events.
    
    I agree with the previous noter that Senna and McLaren are in a SIMILAR
    position to Williams last year. Acyually I would say its worse. Here I
    agree with Schumacher who said , at the same interview, that 'Williams
    are in the year 2000, we are still in the 19 hundreds'.
    I actually would draw the analogy between Ferrari (Prost) in '90 and
    McLaren (Senna). New car, best driver etc. 
    
    I still expect to see Prost in a Ligier this year by the
    way....probably Magny Cours.
    
    
    		George Frost  
    I questioned Mansell putting in the fasted qualifying time right at the
    end of time in Kylami - seemed to me mindless then. Now it is simply
    ridiculous.

    >Some of us are old enough to remember Fangio & Moss.
    >
    >Senna, God ! -- a VERY minor deity.
    
    Well, I wouldn't compare Senna to Fangio or Moss. When I said God I was
    using the term the noter I was replying to used in his reply.
    
    In my opinion he is the BEST (and he has 3 titles to prove it) in the
    present time. There's a lot of people, even in this notesfile, that     
    don't like him. I can understand that. But facts are facts. Titles are
    titles and poles are poles and if you measure him by these factors...
    
    RUI
    
    

    Two centimes worth:
    
    Even though I'm an "oldie", rembering the likes of Fangio, Clark, Hill,
    etc. Senna IMHO is a very good driver and must surely rate as such In
    some respects, likewise Mansell (but if would not have to make such
    bloody hard work of it (or seem to)). Crumbs! even after a "relatively"
    easy race (before shouting I realise no racing at those ridiculous
    speeds is easy), he looks as if he's been thro' hell and back and then
    proceeds to give a groaning interview. Why? Is there something in his
    make up that cant quite handle racing the same way as Clark, Brabham
    etc?
    
    On that subject, where would you rate the "modern" guys with some of
    the truly fast yet laid-back old heroes, eg:
    
    Fangio, Ascari, Clark, Von Tripps, Rindt, Hill, Brabham, Surtees (bike
    and car world champion), Villeneuve, Stewart, etc. (and these guys used
    to do sports cars, saloons, Indy 500 as well).
    
    Steve (without a personal account yet in Paris, having to set host via
    a project account and missed the last race--hint anyone with a video or
    is not worth watching?)
    
    

>    speeds is easy), he looks as if he's been thro' hell and back and then
>    proceeds to give a groaning interview. Why? Is there something in his
    
    What was said in the interview?  The beeb didn't broadcast an
    interview.

    I'm sorry...not sure about last race...but this was a general comment
    and Silverstone last year springs to mind...groan, groan etc but the
    crowd lifted me etc..

    Seems to be DECies whingeing about Mansell, rather than Mansell
    whingeing.

	Re .504

	Miss Amati's most generous sponsor (the one who bought her the 
	superlicense) is a rich Italian saucepan manufacturer (no joke)... 

	the idea being that while they're stirring their sunday's stew, 
	Italian housewives can dream and see themselves as the new 
	kitchen heroins cooking wonders in their F1-type saucepans. 
	Unfortunately, there's nothing to watch and stir on sunday, 
	as Amati got away on saturday with... the wooden spoon.

	Pierre

What's wrong with Mansell the Moan trying to better his own pole/practice
time?

1. The name of the game is to go FASTER than anybody else if you want to
   stay in front

2. As they say in football, the game's not over until the final whistle
   is blown!

3. He has never been in this position before -- in front of the pack,
   superior car, etc., -- and doesn't necessarily feel able to relax...


Anyway, it makes a change to see McLaren failing to score 1-2's everyrace.
They seem to be doing an F1 version of Liverpool FC, and like Liverpool,
are finding it hard to come to terms with...

Ron Dennis is on record as saying that the MP4/7 would be OK, of that there is
no question he felt. Adding that testing had been thourough and
professional and nothing had been left to chance...

Maybe they have introduced it too soon, and in doing so, created more
problems than they needed to have.

The Williams camp are still treating the McLaren threat as a serious
one. This is maybe why Mansell fails to relax. He can't afford to.

    You Mansell bashers are really having to scrape the bottom of the
    barrel now: trying too hard during practice. Jeez. 

    And for all the Senna fans, what was that long procession of cars I saw
    behind him? And you reckon he wasn't holding Schumacher (sp) up? Pah!

    First off!!
    
    Way to go Nige
    
    Second, I would just like to point out that the Ferraris crossed the
    line (without the help of any tow trucks)  ;-)
     even if it was a few laps back.
    
    Now if Ferrari can get that new engine together in the next 4 weeks I
    predict that Ferrari will beat the Benetton team for second overall.

RE: .520

I'm a big Mansell fan, but I think he deserves bashing for the incident with
Senna during Saturday practice.  With the big lead he had in qualifying, it
was just plain stupid for Mansell to have gone for that corner the way
he did.  Senna was well within his rights to shut the door when he did.
Mansell was lucky that his injuries didn't affect his drive for the race.
It was a stupid thing to try.

Regarding the race itself, it's interesting to see the new car development
shoe on the McLaren foot for a change.  This has to be their worst outing in
a good long while.  The MP4/7 was terrible.  Not only did Berger drop out
almost immediately with gearbox trouble, but Senna was holding up a parade
of 8-10 other drivers before he finally dropped out.  It looked to us from
the TV coverage as though he was having trouble with downshifting.  He seemed
to find enough power on the straights to pull away from Schumacher and the
others, but as soon as he got into the curves, they'd be right on his tail
again and he was clearly holding them all up.  Gearbox trouble of this sort
would also corroborate Schumacher's post-race comments about Senna's speed
being unpredictible and irregular.

McLaren have been lucky in the past when introducing new cars, but the MP4/7
in its present configuration is a real lemon.  Given all the testing they do,
that's something of a surprise.  I wonder how many more real races it's
going to take before they get their semi-auto gearbox sorted out?  If it
takes 4, like it did with Williams last year, they are going to be in real
trouble.

--PSW

Yes, but didn't both McLaren's suffer "engine failure" ?

I agree with the comments about Ferrari. With a better (and reliable) engine, 
they should be more of a threat.

re: Mansell bashing. I think a year of success will do wonders for Nigel's 
"seige mentality". I see signs that Senna is starting to suffer from the same 
thing now...

    Anyone know the low-down on Lotus?
    
    They started from the back of the grid, but I believe Johnny Herbert
    had made it to 7th before being taken out.
    
    JfK

RE: 520

I didn't intend to accuse Mansell of "trying too hard" during practice. In
fact, I feel it is the right thing to do, regardless of the size of lead
he has over others.

I seem to recall more than one occasion when Senna has pipped him to pole
in the dying minutes of practice. Mansell and Williams know only too well
that McLaren are trying harder than ever -- despite results -- to get
their cars in front.

And anyway, why shouldn't he rub their (McLaren, Senna, etc.,) noses in it?
He has the better car for once, and he is making the most of it. As
James Hunt suggested, you can sometimes get carried away with enjoying
yourself in such a good and comfortable car that you can forget the basics...

Oh, and by the way, it seemed to me that the pit-stop times of the
Williams team were not as quick as others...Still nervous?

And with regard to Herbert, he must have been around seventh place-ish
as he tangled with the Ligiers who were around that sort of position
to everyones suprise, or else he was being lapped...

Terry B

    
    Williams had no NEED for super-quick pits-stops. Better to take a
    second longer to be absolutely sure of getting it right... don't want
    old Nigel losing any more wheels!

    Come on Terry, there was no way AT ALL that Senna was going to 'pip'
    Mansell to the pole.
    

          1. There just was not time enough for Senna to go around again.
          2. Senna was already halfway around his lap and WAY behind, when
    	     the incident happened.
    	  3. Opposition information around the teams at that time in the
    	     qualifying process sums up very clearly the potential for
    	     poles and the writing was on the wall - no one could catch the 
    	     Williams cars.
    The sad part for Mansell is that he CAN go fast, he IS skilled but he 
    is so immature on the race track that, best car or not, I think that he 
    will have a hard time trying to make champion this year.
    
    I described it as Mansell loosing his cool or his rats or whatever you
    want to call it....What it means is that at that time, at that place it 
    was just damned stupid, no matter what anybody says and that includes 
    Hunt (who is not particularly known for his lucidity either).
    
    For me it's time to wrap up the discussion on this the latest incident
    around Mansell....I shall keep quiet until the next silly he does.
    
    One thing I do appreciate is the lighter side of the incidents. I
    always end up in gales at his discomfort and I suppose that for F1
    viewers he is entertaining.
    
    Perhaps it is good to have a clown around.
    
    		regards  George Frost
                                                          

>    Perhaps it is good to have a clown around.
    
    How anyone who can drive a GP car competively be called a clown I do
    not understand.  It's kind of difficult to argue with their experience. 
    Everyone is different and is motivated by different things.  There are
    drivers I dislike for various reasons, but I still respect them.  

    I certainly respect Mansell.
    
    He is a good driver, and a real clown.
    
    		George Frost

    
    Mansell, a clown? Surely Mr Prosr is as much a clown because not only
    was his total deteriation (?) as a driver evident, he also seems to
    have lost his marbles when it comes to business. How anyone can really
    expect to take year off after a continuing slide and return is beyond
    me. Remember what happn'd to Arnoux (he left Ferrari and re-joined in a
    Ligier...) 
    
    I kinda think that any one of the drivers in F1 are a million times
    better than one of you lot including Giovanni Amanti - never mind those 
    thinly desguised pieces of sexism in the attacks on her. 
    
    Jules

re: .525
>And anyway, why shouldn't he rub their (McLaren, Senna, etc.,) noses in it?

I can think of plenty of business/investment/cost-of-racing reasons not to do
it!

I can remember plenty of racing innovators, particularly in American racing
formulae, who got their innovations legislated OUT for their trouble.  (For that
matter, remember what happened to Lauda' vacuum car and Tyrrels' 6 wheels etc.) 
Even leaving McLaren aside, I don't think it prudent to LAP THE FIELD.  There 
are plenty of "small" people who, when they can't compete on an engineering
basis, will simply try to beat you at the rules table.  I think it much wiser
to, as Jackie Stewart used to say, win by just enough; that way there's less
case to outlaw ... (e.g. hydraulic suspensions, semi-automatic transmissions,
toxic fuels, pneumatic valve trains etc. etc.)

*********
Separately, I sure wouldn't want to be a British sports star ... you guys are
TOUGH.  Listening to the continual Mansel-bashing for quite some time now (NOT
interesting reading, btw), it seems that the guy would have to be superhuman
(and always keep his mouth SHUT - to avoid "whining" accusations) to be
accepted by your lofty, inconsistent standards.

So, the guy made a judgement error in qualifying.  Once noted, why can't you
leave it at that human level, instead of extrapolating it to global personal
juddgements about personality complexes or ability to win the year's
championship?  If he did just enough, you'd be railing him for duffing it
(although if Prost or Senna or Lauda did so, you'd accept that as prudent or
"professorial").

Did it ever occur to you that he has lost several championships, while
developing new technologies (while Senna and Prost opted for the safe, proven
path)?  Many of his losses were due to new technology breakdowns (of the type
that Senna is being forced to live with - now that technology has left McLaren
for dead) - NOT necessarily simply due to a losing personality complex.  Yes,
he's made some mental errors; but, that's just human - not mentally incapable.

I give the guy an A+ for trying all these years - in the face of very
discouraging disappointments; he seems to do even better with the odds against
him.  and I give him an extra 2 points (on a 1-10 scale	:^)
for putting up with petty, inconsistent, British fans and press!

/Mike Coughlin

    I'm not sure George Frenna, oops I mean George Frost (I guess I dreamed
    he changed his name when he found out Prost wasn't racing this year.
    Sorry George (-:)) is a Brit. I kinda think he's 'merican.
    
    But I do agree we "bash" our heroes. We also do it to ourselves,
    especially within Digital. But that's another story!
    
    JfK

    I happen to agree with Mike...
    
    If I was in his shoe I probably would have done the same thing, only I
    would have stuck out my tongue and went NAH NAH NA NA NAH!!!!!  ;-^)
    
    Leave Nige alone and let him win his championship.
    
    Now what do we do for the next 3 weeks.
    
    
    How about a few prayers for Jean and Ivan      ;-)
    regards,
    JP

>>formulae, who got their innovations legislated OUT for their trouble.  (For that
>>matter, remember what happened to Lauda' vacuum car and Tyrrels' 6 wheels etc.) 
    
    FWIW, I don't think the six-wheeler wasn't actually legislated out.
    It's initial success could not be maintained against developments of
    'standard' size tyres - where new tyre advantages did not apply to this
    particular vehicle.   It was a good idea, but couldn't be developed fully,
    due to lack of comparative data on tyre performances.
    
    Then again, the extra-effective brabham fan-car was withdrawn from
    competition due to the enormous stir it caused within FOCA.  It also
    kept within the 'rules', but those rules would soon have been changed
    if the car continued in competition.
    
    J.R.

The rules now state an F1 car can only have (must?) have 4 wheels, so
6 wheels cars are not allowed anymore.  I don't remember if the rule caused
the demise of the Tyrrell design, or if it came in after they went back
to 4 (and March and Ferrari tested a few other 6 wheel designs.)

Dave

RE: .523

>Yes, but didn't both McLaren's suffer "engine failure" ?

A gearbox that selects 3rd instead of 6th (for example) every now and then
might well over-rev the engine to the point where it breaks down.  The
Ferraris used to suffer engine blow-ups back when their semi-auto gearbox was
dodgy.  I'd be surprised if the underlying reason for Senna's DNF didn't
turn out to be related to either of the new gearbox or the new throttle.

--PSW

To my way of thinking, the most logical explanation of the McLarens dnf's is
the engine. Surely gearbox failure so early in the race would be inconceivable
with a reasonable testing program ?

    
    Re:- A few back...
    
    Williams also experimented with a six wheeled racing car. The main
    difference between the Williams and the Tyrell was that Williams had
    the four wheel cluster at the rear.
    
    POL.

    
    re .538
    
    Which followed from a model which March produced around the same time
    as the Tyrrell which also had 4 at the back.
    
    Mark

re.531:

Agree with most. Mansell won by a big margin, when he didn't have to,
for two reasons:-

1. He was racing his team mate, Patrese.
2. Any emergency pitstop or car problem that caused him to slow, would not
   necessarily lose him the race. 

/Dave.

    McLaren problems = Honda ENGINE and ELECTRONICS
    
    Engine: too thirsty, not enough muscle both in peak bhp and in peak
    torque (just like Ferrari 92 version of the V12). The 91 version is
    much better in both aspects. That's the reason why they had a team of
    MP4/6 cars.
    
    Electronics: unreliable (just like the TAG-Porsche sevral years ago)
    
    It was because of electronics cutting the engine that Senna decided to
    head for the pits and stop.
    
    Now the good news: gearbox works very well (Senna and Berger reported)

    Reactive suspension:
    
    Williams have it. Reliable and effective. Difficult to identify the
    real advantage on the stopwatch. Comfortable ride is certainly an
    advantage on the duration of a race.
    
    Lotus Team had it. Senna liked it. When is it going to reappear ?
    
    Ligier had it (in cooperation with Citroen). How effective was it ?

    Senna was quoted as saying that they hoped to have the reactive ride
    system on the McLarens for Spain, but that may now slip as they clearly
    have a lot more work to do in other areas.
    
    Much as I rate Senna's ability to extract the best out of less than
    wonderful cars, I think that McLaren are coming from too far behind.
    However, I don't reckon that this is from complacency, but
    conservatism. Smilin' Ron has been quoted that the reason they have not
    gone with raised noses for example is that they cannot see *why* they
    work and are therefore unwilling to experiment.
    
    As for the rest of the season, I reckon McLaren will stage a revival
    but probably not enough of one to stop Mansell winning the title as
    long as he avoids falling out with Patrese. Unfortunately for McLaren,
    this will probably see the departure of Senna at the end of the season,
    probably to Williams, with Prost returning to McLaren maybe?
    
    Speculation on speculation
    
    Paul

    Mwangwanani watusi,
    
    		I resent any and all speculation that I am anything to do
    with thos two jaded nationalities (Brit or Yank) although I am
    bi-lingual. I can pass almost unperceived on both sides of the
    Atlantic because I tend to mumble a lot.
    
    Herr JfK, ich war in Zimbabwe geboren, for you uninitiated I am
    Zimbabwean.
    
    I cannot critique Prost at this time because he has not driven this
    year. I have not started bashing Mansell at the expense of Senna or
    anybody else. Read my lips....I rate Prost higher overall than either
    Senna or Mansell. 
    Senna is improving faster than Mansell.
    
    A noter mentioned earlier that no one has taken a sabbatical 'in their
    decline' etc.   Try Lauda - who came back from his sabattical to win
    the championship. Try Moss - who after his forced layoff after his first
    accident came back to do very well thank you though albiet no
    championship.
    
    			regards George
     Frost 

    
    RE .530
        
>>>    have lost his marbles when it comes to business. How anyone can really
>>>    expect to take year off after a continuing slide and return is beyond
>>>    me. Remember what happn'd to Arnoux (he left Ferrari and re-joined in a
>>>    Ligier...) 
    
    Jules,
    
    Remember, Arnoux didn't have 3 world championships to his credit.  A
    more objective comparison might be Niki Lauda who took *several*
    seasons off and made a fine "comeback".
    
    If Prost should comeback next season I would expect his energy and
    motivation to have been revitalized and he will then be a formidable
    competitor.  A couple of seasons at Ferrari is enough to sour anyone's
    career.
    
    - Nate

    re: Tyrrell 6-wheeler - it was NOT legislated out of existance. The car
    worked at the outset but the 6 wheel configuration was not the main
    reason. Frankly, it was never clear that the small front wheels really
    contributed to improved aerodynamics. Other designs worked better. The
    4 wheel limit actually was added into the rules years later, about the
    time the ban on ground effects took place, I believe.
    
    However, the Brabbahm "sucker car" was banned. FISA deemed that the
    design constituted a safety hazard from the stones and debris it would
    suck up and eject. And, like the Chaparrel (sp?) before it, the sucker
    fan was considered a "moveable aerodynamic device". The design did seem
    to work though I believe that it appeared in only one or two races,
    winning the Swedish GP, if I remember.
    
    As for McLaren, they are having problems and it is probably from being
    conservative all these years. Senna won last year in what appeared to
    be an inferior design - certainly not up to the Williams level - but
    more reliable over the course of the season. Ron Dennis might be
    damned for his approach, but no other team has had as long or as
    successful run at the top. He's had the World Champ 1984, 85, 86, 88,
    89, 90, 91; and the Constructors Champ all those years minus 86 I
    believe. That is an incredible record. He'll have to come up with
    something to get back in the game, but I would not yet count him out.
    From this year maybe, but not out for good.
    
    In the meantime, while the racing is no more interesting than before,
    it's nice to see Nige on top - and running away. I hope he wins his
    championship. For racing excitement, I'll watch Indy Cars. The Phoenix
    race was super. Yeah, Bobby Rahal ran away, but the battle for 2-8 was
    great.
    
    Paul
     

    Still like to know about Lotus (see .524)........
    
    JfK

    RE: .541
    
    	
>>    Electronics: unreliable (just like the TAG-Porsche sevral years ago)
  
    
    I'm not sure, but wasn't it the TAG-Porsche that won 12 of the 16 races 
    in '84, and gave Lauda his 3rd Championship.??? 
    
    Anyone know when McLaren got the Honda engine?? Was it '85 or '86.??
    
    
    Jack.
    
    
    

I'm typing this from the best of informed hind sight; that of
the presses, the tv media, the radio and the F1 notes file.
As usual, even from the most exacting observer, (hold it you DEC
folks, you are not ALL the critiques), parts of the observations
are missing. My misses I am trying to add.

I have rambled on in previous notes about the prequals and
etc..... did any of you notice the start in Sao Paulo?

He who has it made, in mechanical terms, appears, as a matter of
habit,  to try to make the only other runner obsolete by
swerving............. left this time, at the green light. 

I remember a similar attack on a team mate, albeit it, in red
and it was swerving  to the right.

Alesi did phenomenally well supported by Capelli. Anyone
remember the clash of Alesi and Brundle. The Ferrari was off the
circuit apparently because Alesi blocked Brundle 'on the
straight'. No problem, we did not see anything on the coverage. 

Enough that Alesi finished where he did. Have you noticed - I
have a penchant for Ferrari and the winningest teams. Remember
you lot, Ferrari was second in '90, appear to be bean turds now,
but wait for it!

My typo prone fingers lead me to the following keys;

	-	Williams to win manufacturers

		-	Mansell to win Barcelona (or be kidnapped by thead 
    	        forever a weakness in the knees as reason that he could
		never win anything thereafter) 

	-	Patrese to complain that he has a "Prost" car

	-	Patrese to win two this year

	-	Schumacher and Alesi to race Mansell to the finish. I really
		would not put 50 anything on anybody this year, as a
    	        previous noter has done.

	-	The Honda/Dennis problem to erupt into the public domain and
		force a rethink of the Senna religion.

	-	Ligier to achieve their first podium at Magny Cours and ANY
                podium for almost a decade.


And for the noter asking about Lotus futures - they will have a
hard time making horseshoes let alone F1 cars......

By the way, although Williams have made a better start this year
than McLaren did last year, I notice a reluctance to suggest '16
wins this year' or 'clean sweep' or...........     is this
symptomatic of the favorite driver?	



			regards George Frost
















    

	I don't remember Mclaren suggesting a clean sweep this time last year.
	Maybe they're all just superstisious (sp?).  I know that I am, here in
	England, Murray Walker the commentator has a reputation; as soon as he
	says something like "and <blah> now looks certain to win with only
	<n> laps to go" then the poor shmuck drops out the the race.  I hide 
	behind the settee whenever it's close to the end of the race and
	Mansell is in front (even watching on video).

	However, more competition in the race would be better than the off
	circuit circus that we're getting.

	Dave 

    
    I seem to recall talk of a McLaren clean sweep in this notesfile after
    the first 3-4 races of last season.  Perhaps that is what George is
    referring to in note .551?
    
    - Nate

	Well, yes, I guess that he could have been talking about that.  After
	all, this notes file is full of wild talk.

	Dave

	(Actually, I've learnt a lot of stuff from the F1 topics over the
	years and I don't mind bias, it adds spice to arguments).

    I heard some rumblings about the new Bennetons on test.
    
    Anyone got any news?
    
    			George Frost

    Brundle has the B192 out at silverstone earlier in the week. He was
    very pleased with it. It looks much the same as the b191 with the hung
    front wing. It was pictured in autosport put the prospective was all
    wrong so it put the picture all out.
    
    Garry 

Any comments on Mansell's passing attempt on Patrese on the 1st lap ?

    re .557
    
    Mansell was second and wanted to be first, so he tried to overtake.

    re.  .547
    
    >>For racing excitement ,I'll watch Indy cars......
    
    I saw the Long Beach race at the weekend -
    
    4 cars together at the end (until Unser got 'touched')...certainly
    exciting stuff.
    
    Rob

    Bad rumours (continued)
    
    - ex-Middlebridge MRD (Brabham) have spent all the money Van de Poele
      had brought. Hiring Giovanna Amati did not bring much but was
      expected to attract some advertisement money, did not work so far.
      
    - March haven't yet found a single penny. Wendlinger has made offers to
      other teams and is thinking about returning to F3000.
    
    - Andrea Sasseti thinks he's been racketed by the F1 family. Will he
      continue ? 
    
    Answers at Barcelona early May.
                                   

>>    Mansell was second and wanted to be first, so he tried to overtake.
    
    Agreed.  Shows some bias in the Notes when Patrese is slagged off for
    not 'trying to overtake his team-mate', and Mansell gets slated for
    trying to do just that same thing...
    
    J.R.

Actually I saw it differently. Mansell was trying to recover from his poor start
saw a samll chance to take Patrese who closed the door. I was surprised at the
manouver because :-

1) It could have taken out both Williams'.
2) It was on the first lap of a 71 lap race where both Williams cars had a 
   comfortable superiority.
3) It was a case of poor judgement.

Whatever, Mansell then chose to back off and lok for an opportunity later in the
race. It was eventually given to him when Patrese took longer in the pits.
Mansell then comfortably pulled away...

    re .-1
    
    > 1)  It could have taken out both Williams'.
    
    	Agreed ...but so could a lot of the back markers when the two
    Williams' carved through the field.
    
    I don't think there are many World Champs who havn't taken risks when 
    trying to overtake ,even against their team mates.
    
    > 2)  It was on the first lap of a 71 lap race where both Williams cars 
          had a comfortable superiority.
     
    	Agreed....so effectively it was Williams v. Williams and Mansell
        wanted to be first.
    
    > 3) It was a case of poor judgement.
    
    	Difficult to substantiate.. Mansell had a look down the inside and
    	'decided' not to fight for the bend. Perhaps he backed off when he
    	realised Patrese still had the best line....in which case it was
    	probably 'good' judgement.
    
    Keep 'racing' Nige.
    
    

>> 1) It could have taken out both Williams'.
    
    As was mentioned in .1, Mansell did back off to let Patrese through
    and in doing so did'nt endanger either himself or his team mate.  O.K.
    so he wanted to get past and, judging by his performance after he did,
    he was right to do so.  What also has to be remembered it that there
    are no team orders yet, therefore the Williams team are expecting their
    drivers to be racing each other and, judging by all the comments in this
    note, racing does mean one car trying (and somtimes managing) to pass
    another !
    
    All I can say is there is no pleasing som people !
    
    
    Shaun.
    
                        

Don't you just love to speculate?

How about Mansell just wanted to show Patrese he could go faster?
How about Patrese was so slow that Mansell thought he might have a car problem
and would let him past.

The list goes on...

/Dave :-)

    I think that again Williams pit crew did a poor job. Mansell was second
    by what was less than a second... But I think it wouldn't be
    easy/possible for him to pass Patrese. Anyway he didn't have to. The
    pit crew offered the first place to Mansell when they spent 2 or 3
    seconds more changing tyres for Patrese...
    
    Of course one can say they didn't do it intencionally, but the outcome
    was the same.
    
    RUI 

    RE -1
    
    Wasn't the difference .5 second?  8.5 v 9.0 seconds approx
    
    -Roy
    

      It looked to me as if the difference was in the extra .5 second or so
    that Patrese took to get onto the power compared to Mansell. That,
    combined with Mansell having disconnected his rev-limiter since his
    pit-stop, brought Patrese out into second place.

I read yesterday that Mansel is testing the new Renault engine. It 
already appears to be faster than the current one.

Also read that the new Benneton is about ready, being tested, and thought
to be very good (or at least said to be better than the Mclaren).

    Judging by the first three races I would conlude that the old benneton
    was already better than the McLaren          ;-)

    
    re: .567
    
    RUI,
    
    The Williams pit crew do indeed have a long standing record of shoddy
    pit work.  Alan Jones lost the USGP in 1979 when a newly mounted rear
    wheel departed the car yards after leaving the pits.
    
    In light of this know achilles heel I would think the Williams crew
    prudent, while they enjoy a significant advantage on track, in taking
    a moment extra to insure a tidy and thorough pit stop.  IMHO.
    
    - Nate

    talking of pit crews, did you notice the crews handing out sanwiches
    and drinks during the race....really relaxed.
    
    They deserve it. Lets hope that silly girl Mansell will live up to
    their expectations this season.
    
    			George Frost

Sexism to one side, I also hope that Mansell does it this year. I agree with
the earlier comments about the pit stop. I put it down to Patrese being slower
to get on the power. Looking at the race footage, he clearly takes some time to 
realise that he is clear to go.

I was just stirring about Mansell on the first corner. He saw a gap that closed
and he pulled back in time. It was close, but that's racing.

>>I was just stirring about Mansell on the first corner. 
    
    Just trying to sort out the polarisation of the audience ?
    
    		pro- or anti- Mansell/Patrese/Senna...
    
    J.R.

Patrese's pit stop took 1.2 seconds longer than Mansell. However he came back
into the race 5.7 seconds behind Mansell. This was because the latter ran off 3
laps at qualifying pace - to make sure that he was well ahead of Patrese when
the latter emerged.

Seems like an intelligent tactic to me - get ahead without risking both team 
cars (just your own).

Steve

    What news of Barcelona?
    
    Can we expect the new engined McLarens, the new Benettons, new engined
    Ligier and resolved heating problems on the Ferrari?
    
    If so, watch Schumacher, Alesi, Senna going for gold and or
    Mansell/Patrese whichever comes first (sic), and Ligier going finally
    for a place.
    
    One thing for sure is that the season is far from over and the
    competition is hotting up.....the next three races will prove that.
    
    		regards George Frost
    

    According to autosport this week there will certainly be changes at
    Brabham. This was from Dennis Nursey. Roumors are that Amati and Van de
    poele might not be around much longer is some money does not turn up in
    a hurry.
    
    
    
    Garry

    I watched CART from Florida, on Eurosport the other day.
    
    What struck me was firstly the similarity to the F1 formula and then
    curiously the differences when I started looking at the thing in
    detail.
    The overall impression was not a favourable one. There really appears
    to be too much interference in the race by officials - for almost any
    problem - track, surface, cars etc and everything goes back to zero.
    
    The dangerous practices that have been weeded out of F1 are still there
    however, for example pit fuelling et al.
    In retrospect and in comparing F1 to CART, the safety of the F1 formula
    is built into the track and facilities. This allows the cars to roar
    around and RACE knowing that all hard won advantages are maintained.
    
    CART, probably because no established F1-like facilities exist, has to 
    depend on its safety by slowing or stopping the race when things get
    too competitive. Most F1 drivers can get as competitive as the circuit
    allows, and these days 'most' circuits allow competition well beyond
    the capability of current cars.
    
    A thought has just struck me that ALL US motor sport that I have seen
    can be slowed, re-ordered, stopped and re-started with everybody
    bunched (in order) one after the other. The race starts and anybody can
    steal advantage from the 'go'.  
    
    As a spectacle I would compare CART to the ubiquitous F3000 and at that
    level I would perhaps be prepared to pay my money to see a days racing.    
    
	                  Regards George Frost
    
    

    
    Hello George,
    
    I'd agree that CART is more comparable to F3000 (f2 now in Britain)
    than F1.
    
    It's easy to say that interference causes the closeness of racing in
    CART, but if you watch a few races, you'll see that the closeness
    exists between pace laps, etc. I agree that the organisers seem a
    little pace car happy (watch a NASCAR race if you want to see it taken
    to an extreme - Now that really is one form of motorsport that I can't
    get excited about), but (as you say) a lot of that is down to the poor
    standard of circuit.
    
    CART isn't an equal to F1, but as a form of motor "RACING" it's often 
    a lot more entertaining.
    
    Mark

A lot of the observations in .579 relate to two factors in IndyCar racing
not present in F1:  long (500-mile) races and attempts to contain costs.

The IndyCar championship races are split about equally between ovals, permanent
road courses, and temporary street circuits (F1 races exclusively on permanent
road courses, except for Spa and Monaco).  Full-course yellows enforced by a
pace car are the only way that accidents can be cleaned up on oval tracks.
On the 2-mile-and-larger ovals (Indianapolis, Michegan), the *average* lap
speed of the cars is well in excess of 200 mph.  On the 1-mile ovals, lap
times are only 25 seconds or so.  So on the big ovals the cars are going so
fast that it's too dangerous to clear accidents under green, and on the short
ovals, there isn't enough space between cars coming around to do anything.
The pace car system is the only way one can get both dead cars and debris off
the track safely.

Full-course yellows aren't necessary on road and temporary circuits, as F1
has amply demonstrated.  However, you do need a way to get dead cars off the
track.  F1 uses cranes.  That's OK when you have the big budgets that F1 has,
but it's too expensive for CART.  So they use the pace car system here, as
well, although nowhere near as much as on ovals.

I do agree with you that CART officials overdo the use of full-course yellows
on road tracks and street circuits.  They could get away with a lot more
local cautions.  Then again, maybe not, as long as there's folks like Mario
Andretti driving--a few years back, he hit an abandoned car that had been
parked on the side of the track for so long that the course marshals were no
longer yellow-flagging the area, and last year Mario rear-ended one of the CART
safety vehicles as it was setting up a car for a tow out of a corner (there
were waving yellow flags at the two stations prior to this corner, plus the
white-flag-with-red-stripe indicating that a safety vehicle was on the course).

I also agree about the bad effects on the race of pace car laps.  It's a shame
for a driver to skilfully build up a 1/2-lap advantage over the course of the
race, only to have it all go for nought when the pace car comes out.

There are a couple of other officiating differences between CART and F1 that
you may or may not have noticed.  One is that in CAQRT, cars can be pushed by
the marshals and re-started, or towed back to the pits and repaired and
restarted.  In F1, if the driver can't restart the engine on his own, that's
it.  The practice in CART stems from the 500-mile races, where the race
duration is long enough that it's actually practical to work on a car and put
it back into the race.  A second officiating difference is that FISA's only
remedy for rule infractions is disqualification (witness Mansell after his
wheel fell off at Estoril last year).  CART tends to assess stop-and-go
penalties for minor infractions, so that any benefit you may have gained by
the infraction is eliminated, but you're still in the race.  In many cases,
they will also allow a team to voluntarily correct an infraction.  So, for
example, if an illegal pass under yellow flag conditions is made, the officials
may elect to allow the driver who made the illegal pass to correct the
condition by allowing the passed driver to re-pass, rather than by black-
flagging.

Regarding pit fuelling, it's there mainly because of the 500-mile races.
Going the whole distance at Indy or Michegan without refuelling is out of the
question.  Remember also that IndyCars use alcohol, not gasoline, so the fire
danger is greatly reduced, plus fires can be dissipated and extinguished with
water.  There's actually a safety benefit to allowing refueling, because the
IndyCars carry smaller fuel tanks than F1 cars do.  This means less fuel to
potentially go up in flames if a car is in an accident on the track, and it
also means that the difference in car weight under full fuel load vs. empty is
less.  This means that the handling of IndyCars doesn't vary as much with
fuel load as F1 cars do.

>    CART, probably because no established F1-like facilities exist, has to 
>    depend on its safety by slowing or stopping the race when things get
>    too competitive. Most F1 drivers can get as competitive as the circuit
>    allows, and these days 'most' circuits allow competition well beyond
>    the capability of current cars.

I don't equate "competitiveness" with "causing accidents".

Actually, one of my biggest complaints about F1 is that so few circuits have
any places where there's an opportunity to pass.  Consider the Hungaroring,
Magny Cours, Monaco, or the new Kyalami circuit.  There are almost no passes for
position because although cars can catch up to one another, there's nowhere
to overtake.  You might just as well stop the whole show after qualifying and
not bother running the race, since nobody changes from their qualifying
positions except through mistakes or breakdowns.  F1 needs more courses where
you can get real racing and passing, such as Mexico.  IndyCars also have this
problem with some of their circuits, but most circuits are like Long Beach
and have one or two good passing spots where we can and do see action.


I like both CART and F1.  There's nothing quite like the excitement and
spectacle of F1, but at times I find myself wishing that there was more of the
passing for position, especially amongst the front runners, that one sees in
CART.  Conversely, I hate full-course yellows and wish that CART would borrow
a page from F1's book and minimize or eliminate their use.

--PSW

RE .579

>>> I watched CART from Florida, on Eurosport the other day.

>>> curiously the differences when I started looking at the thing in detail.

It may seem like splitting hairs but...  You couldn't have been looking too
closely George.  CART hasn't raced in Florida for years.  I'll speculate it was
Long Beach, a track that should have looked familiar to a F1 fan.

I'll repeat what I've said here before.  Both F1 and CART are flawed.  At the
moment CART offers *racing*.  On the track.  Contrived or otherwise.  F1 offers
precious little of that these days.

Regards,

- Nate Bemis

RE: .581

>>Actually, one of my biggest complaints about F1 is that so few circuits have
>>any places where there's an opportunity to pass.  Consider the Hungaroring,
>>Magny Cours, Monaco, or the new Kyalami circuit.  There are almost no passes for

You're not the only one - they are bad.

Monaco is clearly there (and here to stay) because of history.

Magny Cours has had some important changes made to several corners this year. 
Time will tell whether it is in the name of safety and/or improving the
spectacle...

Hungaroring - I think that its days are numbered (For purely financial
considerations, of course)

Kyalami. A big disappointment - I hope that they do something about it.

The only good (great?) recent circuit is Barcelona - I hope that the designers 
are used at other circuits.

Steve