Conference rdvax::grateful

Welp, sometime tonight I'll hit 150K miles on my Tempo.  With a few
minor difuglties over the last month or so, its still running grate!

Think I'll reward it with a new Dead sticker this weekend.




Jim

    Well, I put my latest Baileymobile on the road yesterday ... a 1981
    Subaru wagon.  I officially christened it with a Stagger Lee on the
    rear window, driver's side; a skull-and-roses on the rear window,
    passenger side, and a Slipknot sticker on the rear hatch where the
    dealership sticker used to be.
    
    My old Toyota got a new home ... I gave it to a friend of mine who's
    outta work and needs some wheels to get back on his feet again.  It's
    got nearly 179K miles, and still runs fine.
    
    ... Bob
    

re < Note 53.2 by BOOKS::BAILEYB "Smilin' on a cloudy day" >
>                      -< love them Japanese imports ... >-
>
>    Well, I put my latest Baileymobile on the road yesterday ... a 1981
>    Subaru wagon.  I officially christened it with a Stagger Lee on the

Hey now BobB;

  What's a Stagger Lee ?

- curious

    You know ... the cool dude in the green suit and wide brim hat twirling
    his pocket watch ...
    
    				... Bob
    

re< Note 53.4 by BOOKS::BAILEYB "Smilin' on a cloudy day" >
>             -< might also be the name of my first Baileyboat ... >-
>
>    You know ... the cool dude in the green suit and wide brim hat twirling
>    his pocket watch ...
    
OK ... I've always called him The Doodah Man ....

8^)

- Dave

    I hit 160k this week on my 84 Chevy Cavalier.  Still tickin!!  Got new
    tires for it last week.  I always buy cheap tires cause I don't think
    the car will last that long;  this is it's 3rd pair!  Ain't
    complainin'!!  Just GRATEFUL!!  It's a good car.
    
    dave

	doodah, doodah	.........


:-)

    
>OK ... I've always called him The Doodah Man ....

I always called him "The Shakedown Street Disco Icon from Hell".

:-)

    I've always called him "Great Expectations Shattered Man."
    
    Actually, we always called him Stagger Lee.
    
    Jamie

    I call him "Shaky"
    
    							/
    

    
    
    
    	I've called him smiling Jack.....
    
    	Will the real name please step forward. 
            
    	

    i don't call him...  he doesn't call me...  it's just one of those
    things, you know?  :^) :^) :^)
    
    			da ve

    
    
    I ALWAYS CALLED HIM ZOOT
    
    AND I THOUGHT THE GUY WITH THE SAX IN THE MUPPETS BAND (YOU KNOW, DR
    
    TEETH) WAS NAMED AFTER HIM.

  AAAAAAaaaaaaarrrarragggggggggggggggggaaaaahhhhahahhhaggggga%%$#$%^&*(&^*&%&%$$

  Whew, that felt good.  Is there anyway I could have known at home in my 
driveway that my timing chain had jumped?????  Is that hard to fix? and
why can't they dry out the plugs and reuse them?????  And why did the cable
on my gas petal break when the other car was already not working???  Am I the
only one in here that HATES cars??? ;-)

  anyway I guess good news, _only_ $100.00 and I get my car back, and I got
the VW working by wrapping the wire around the metal around my scimshaw (sp)
keychain and hooking that to the gas petal.  Move over McGyver, he would have 
used duct tape.


  john

RE:<<< Note 53.14 by OURGNG::RYAN "Spent my life seeking all that's still unsung" >>>
                  -< everyone should take auto mechanics 201 >-


 >on my gas petal break when the other car was already not working???  Am I the
  only one in here that HATES cars??? ;-)


NO!!  I hate 'em m'self. If I lived near public transportation I'd never own
another one.



>  anyway I guess good news, _only_ $100.00 and I get my car back, and I got
>the VW working by wrapping the wire around the metal around my scimshaw (sp)
>keychain and hooking that to the gas petal.  Move over McGyver, he would have 
>used duct tape.


 Alright John!!  Geeze, why doncha come out here and see what you can do to
 make mine start when its raining :^/




Jim

RE:<<< Note 53.16 by OURGNG::RYAN "Spent my life seeking all that's still unsung" >>>
   

>   Nah, then you'd just want the wipers and defroster to work too!!  you might
>try putting a hood on the engine though.  ;-)



Hmmm. Maybe that's what I'm missing :^)  As long as I've owned this car I've
had a problem starting it in the rain.  I talk to mechanics about it and they
ask me "Is it a Ford?"  Yep, I say hopefully.  "Well, thats a problem with 
Fords" they reply.  Big help.




Jim

    Yeah, I hate cars. One evening I tried to add up all the money cars
    directly or indirectly suck out of the family budget. Payments,
    maintenance, gas, insurance, excise tax, some unknown portion of
    income and property taxes (road construction and repair), etc. I forget
    the total, but it was quite enough to be painful.
    
    Add in the ecological costs to driving 30 miles each way to work, and
    the fact that my doing this helped lead to war, and the result is a
    major bummer.
    
    So what am I doing about it? We can't afford to move closer to where I
    work, and I like living in the mountains anyway.
    
    The present fantasy is to bicycle to work, at least in the summer.
    (Most of the time, winters here are more wet than cold.) I've been
    getting some time in on a mountain bike, and am real close to buying a
    road bike and giving it a shot. I figure if I can keep the total
    commuting time under 4 hours per day (which would be easy if it weren't
    for the mountains) and work from home one or two days a week, then it
    should work out OK.
    
    For the time being, I'm still driving.
    
    John
    

    
    I hate 'em too.......many times I've considered driving across the
    country, finding a job and place to live in Seattle, then selling the
    car and taking the Metro......GRATE public Transportation!
    
    They're destructive contraptions, and their an integral part of that
    vicious circle that keeps people in debt and forcing them to need even
    more income......
    
    However......I do like my Fahrfagnuten  :^) :^) :^)
    
    Dave

ya know I heard a bunch of people talking about if they became VERY wealthy
they wouldn't run out and buy a Mercedes.

  I would!!!!!!!  in a heartbeat (or something else very reliable) and a very
good prepaid maintenance package.


  john

     I just refinanced the house at a lower interest, and borrowed
    a little extra to pay off all of my bills.  Last Thursday I paid
    off the last credit card and Friday I blew the engine in my truck...
                                              
     Oh Well  That's what I call "Strandbergs Law"

     I still think that it is not worth the cost of a new car.  Interest and
    insurance (dirty word) on a new vehicle is too much $$$$$

     Worst case if I continue putting in $100.00 per month it's still
    cheaper than a new car.  A new one would run about 15k and about $125
    to $150 per month for insurance.  The monthly payment on the loan would
    be about $300 or so.  Well that's too much for me...

                                        Lee
                                                        

Wow, thanks Lee!!!!  You just made me quit feeling badly about my car
troubles.  $250.00 fixed it.

I agree, new cars just aren't worth the expense!!!!

 john

    Your Welcome John!!!

     By the end of this week I'll have an old truck with a new engine for
    only $1600.00  Then I can put another 130k mi. on it...
    
                                                   Lee

    John, you spent 250 bucks to fix a car ? gees I dont even spend that
    much to replace my car when they die ! my last 3 cars cost me 900 bucks
    total and thats been over the last 5 years or so ! :')

    Count me in on the car-haters club.
    
    I'd rather walk or bike to work, but 12 miles is a bit much, in
    traffic.
    
    tim
    

I fix my own rail (car).  Ain't nobody touch it!!!  Cars are not that hard
to work on if you have any sort of mechincal ingenuity.  I enjoy working
on my car and watching the mileage climb because I can claim that I got it
this far (currently, almost 137,000)...

Whenever I can, I go to the boneyard (Junkyard) and get my parts.  They are
much cheaper, environmentally the right choice, and it's fun!  Right now,
I think I'm getting ready for a new tranny .. does anyone have a 4-speed
standard transmission that'll fit in an 81 Camaro?

One more thing, over the years of fixing my own car, and knowledge of what
shops charge for car work, I estimate a savings of over $10,000 ... and
that is only for my current car...

RE:      <<< Note 53.27 by ZENDIA::FERGUSON "Is it just a waste of time?" >>>
                           -< DIY == Do It Youself >-

>I fix my own rail (car).  Ain't nobody touch it!!!  Cars are not that hard
>to work on if you have any sort of mechincal ingenuity.  I enjoy working


Welp, that leaves me out!










Jim

>    <<< Note 53.25 by MSHRMS::FIELDS "A Time 4peace I Swear Its Not 2L8" >>>
>                       -< dont fix them recycle them ! >-

$900.00 on three cars!!!!  that just isn't fair, are you good at
picking old reliable cars, fix them yourself or buying hot
cars???? ;-)  I do have a very cheap old (69 vw squareback) car
that I can fix myself, but generally I get taken to the cleaners
on cars.  It isn't that I can't fix them, it's that I can't do
the troubleshooting.  Sounds like JC is one of those blessed
individuals that just listen to them and sorta knows what is
wrong, its not fair ;-).

  Anyway, I think you are right, sinking big bucks into a car for
any reason other than reliability doesn't fit my attitude.  Shoot
I should pay for yur ticket out here to buy me a car, at your
prices I'd still make out.

  john

    its just the cars I find are in good running order and then I slowly
    beat them into the ground :') the car Im drivin' now has made it to the
    last two Foxboro shows (hoping for a third) plus lots of Greatwoods & 
    Centrum events plus lots of Slipknot shows....
    
    beside the cheap insurance, I've spent @ 200 bucks in the last 1.6 years
    on parts needed to keep it running. My moto is if I can buy a car that
    runs good for less then the cost of fixing the one that doesn't run
    then the answer is BUY THE NEW OLD ONE ! and most important does it
    have a tape deck ! if not they better come down on the price :')
    
    Chris

    I enjoy fixing my own too.  After I paid the sucker off (I bought it
    new in 84) I started doing my own work.  I'm now on a whopping 164,000
    miles on the same engine!!  May it live long and prosper!!  Some deity
    bless it!!
    
    dave

  hey you car gurus.  I have a rear engine squareback VW.  Do I have U joints.
I swear the car sounds like something is going to fall off pretty soon, yo
know like a wheel!  Just like when u joints go, it has that rotational
thump thump thump sound that excelerates and decreases with the rpms.  Pushing
the clutch in or letting off the gas brings it about, big time.  Every so often
it must catch as I'll lose it for a while.  I looked underneath sorta, and it
looks like a direct connection between rear wheel and the engine.  I haven't
used a mechanic in so long that i'm pretty good at fixing cars, but I sure need 
a clue or two on how to troubleshoot this.  Any hints????

 thanks guys,

  john

Hmmm.  They have a transaxle, and I don't think they have U-joints.
I seem to recall a similar noise in a '57 Bug that I had which wound up
being the transmission and the ultimate demise of what was my first and
all time favorite car.


Ever seen the "VW Repair for the Complete Idiot" book?  The guy that wrote
it had a section that described noises and their likely origin.




Other than that, I don't know.   Have you tried turning up the radio? :^)






Jim

Yep, its amazing how those noises go away when you turn up the radio!




Jim

    welp, its that time again, my car is on its final leg :'( I guess it
    won't make that 3rd Foxboro (if one comes about that is) show like I
    planned ..... but I got a Chevy Caprice (sp?) classic lined up ! big
    350 V8 ! whoa ! gonna be different then those small 4 bangers I've been
    driving for the past 5 yrs ! got it for a song too ! less then 200
    bucks ! all new brakes tuned up and if it breaks down I got a place to
    bring it cheap ! big problem is what sticker to get for it ! I only
    have one Slipknot sticker left :') 
    
    Chris

re:     <<< Note 53.34 by BOSOX::HENDERSON "Someone's got to turn the page" >>>

>Ever seen the "VW Repair for the Complete Idiot" book?  The guy that wrote
>it had a section that described noises and their likely origin.


 Not only is that book informative, it's also hysterically funny.

Shawn

RE:     <<< Note 53.36 by BOSOX::HENDERSON "Someone's got to turn the page" >>>

>Yep, its amazing how those noises go away when you turn up the radio!

Also, I recommend black electic tape for those annoying warning
lights.

RE:              <<< Note 53.39 by VIA::HEFFERNAN "Juggling Fool" >>>
                             -< Old car talk joke >-

RE:     <<< Note 53.36 by BOSOX::HENDERSON "Someone's got to turn the page" >>>

>Yep, its amazing how those noises go away when you turn up the radio!

>Also, I recommend black electic tape for those annoying warning
>lights.




Why waste tape....just remove the bulbs!






Jim

    Yo Joohn
    
    	I'm not sure if this will discredit me as a "car guru",.. but I
    actually agree with Jim Henderson in that it sounds like a transmission
    or trans-axle problem,...
    
    
    	Not fun
    
    	:-/
    
    					/
    

RE: 350

Ah, movin' up in the world, eh?  350s are good motors.  Matter of fact, I
have a spare in my parent's garage if my 305 decides to die in my Camaro.

Anyone need a 350 V8?  

Hey john ryan, maybe we could shoe-horn the V8 in your car.  That ought to
make the thing climb up to where you live w/o a problem!

BTW, how much is unleaded gas going for in Colo Springs?

Hey now;

Seen in BXC parking lot ... a Subaru with small Stear Yer Face sticker at
bottom center of rear window ... GRATEFUL noter?

- Dave

    

	Re. -1

	The Subaru belongs to me. 

	I'm only been at BXC for two months and only spend one day a week 
	here since they have me working in programmer's hell, Westminster. 
	That will change next week when I start my new assignment, then 
	I'll be here full time.

	Consider myself a read only member due to family and school, but
	have met a few of the people from this file.

	Come by and see me. I'm located at pole G4 on the second floor. 



	Mike Brennan.  

RE:    <<< Note 53.44 by THRILL::BRENNAN "shadowboxing the Apocalypse" >>>
                         -< who was that masked man? >-


Hey now, Mike! I guess now that yer movin, the node OTHER1 is available again,
right?

Fog

	Re: -1

	Mike,

	OTHER1 is located in BXC these days. When I went to Westminster
	I try to take it with me and the people there wouldn't allow it. 
	They said that managing a workstation was a full time job ( yea, 
	sure it is -) ). This is the same bunch that lost the source code 
	for the project that I'm working on.

	OTHER1 been with me for five years and I'm not giving it up.


	Mike B.  
 

		  		

RE:    <<< Note 53.46 by THRILL::BRENNAN "shadowboxing the Apocalypse" >>>
                                  -< Never! >-

Oh well, it was werth tryin'.  :-)

Actually, I was only kidding, so don't worry!

Fog_whose_stuck_wif_what_he's_got_NEways_(nodename-wise,_thet-is).

Soemtime during my homeward journey this afternoon my odomoter will read
55555.5 (155K miles).   Now if I can just remember to watch it :^/






Jim

GEEZ Jim,  you sure *love* to drive!!   In a few weeks, my odometer will reach
33333.3 ... right now, I'm at something like 32820 or so... btw, that
will be 133333.3 ... back in the days when my car was built, I guess they
did not have that much confidence, hence, left out the 10^5 digit.

    At some point during today's ride, my bike odometer will read 100
    miles!  I don't think it'll hit 100k this summer, though.  The car's at
    105k and still going strong ('cept for the exhaust leak that got me
    rejected and dejected).
    
    Jamie

    sometime this week,.. mo odometer will roll over 100,000 miles
    
    I hope I'm awake at the wheel when it happens
    
    							/
    

    My bike's gonna hit 300 miles during lunch today. It should be more
    than that but I didn't have much time last weekend for riding.
    
    Scott
    

                <<< Note 53.52 by BCSE::ABBOT "Angels on Ariels" >>>
>    My bike's gonna hit 300 miles during lunch today. It should be more
>    than that but I didn't have much time last weekend for riding.

Well Scott!  or is it Scoot :)  Tell us - do you like it?  Isn't that
a stupid question....!
:)
bob
    

                <<< Note 53.52 by BCSE::ABBOT "Angels on Ariels" >>>
>    My bike's gonna hit 300 miles during lunch today. It should be more
>    than that but I didn't have much time last weekend for riding.

And my bike will pass (I don't want my bike hittin' anything!) 36,000 miles
on my way home from work tonight!

Ain't many bikes on the road with that many miles on 'em.

tms_saving_for_a_heritage

>Ain't many bikes on the road with that many miles on 'em.

You mean there ain't many JAPANESE bikes with that many miles, right?

That's barely broken in for a BMW or a Guzzi!  Right, Andy?

	~dave_the_Guzzi_rider

>> Ain't many bikes on the road with that many miles on 'em.
>
> You mean there ain't many JAPANESE bikes with that many miles, right?

Yes, Dave, that's right.  Ain't many Japanese bikes with that many miles.
It's much more common for BMW's, Guzzi's, *and* Harley's.

Every once in a while I spot someone with my bike (an '81 Yamaha XJ750 Seca).
The other day I found one...it had only 3,800 miles on it!  In 10 years!
That's a shame.

I bought mine 3 (or 4?  I guess 4) seasons ago, and it only had 9K on it
at that point.

tms

Well,

right now, I'm supposed to be at my workout place getting in shape.  On
my way outta LTN1, I was heading up the hill and went to put my tranny
in 3rd gear... it wouldn't go... it was stuck!!!  stuck in 2nd I think.
I can't even get it into reverse or neutral.  So, here I am, at the LTN2
entrance, with no where to go except down.  So, i coasted down the hill in 
reverse and whipped into the LTN1 parking lot...  now i'm waiting for
tool reinforcements so i can fix the problem...............


arrgghhhhhhhhhhh
////////

    My Honda (now semi-retired) has almost 30K miles on it. It's an '83 and
    I got it on the road on '87 with about 7000 miles on it. I think I've
    gone outside NH maybe 3 times on it, and just only for little trips
    into Mass. So that's all local trips, I've never done any touring.
    
    The longest trip I made was up to Tripoli 2 years ago.
    
    Do I need to say how I like my Harley? Ever know anyone that didn't
    like theirs?
    
    Scott
    

Well...

Tomorrow, on the way to work, I think I will hit the big


		33333.3

on my beast.  it is really 133,333.3 ....  i hope i get to see it!!!!!

So did ya see it JC?




Jim who saw his hit 55555.5 last week

RE       <<< Note 53.60 by DECXPS::HENDERSON "Seems a common way to go" >>>

>>So did ya see it JC?


NO !!!!!!!!


I can't believe I missed it!!  I missed it by about 1.1 miles while being
distracted by the construction area along route 2 West.  As soon as i was
out of the area, it dawned on me to look..... by that time, it was gone!!

I'll have to wait until 44444.4  .....

Bummer :^(


welp, only 111xx.x miles to go :^)




Jim

    I watched mine go form 999999.9 to 000000.0
    
    what a thrill I tell ya!
    
    :-)
    
    							/
    

HOLY COW!!


Did you take a picture?





Jim

RE      <<< Note 53.63 by STAR::SALKEWICZ "It missed... therefore, I am " >>>
                      -< almost lost control on this one >-

>    I watched mine go form 999999.9 to 000000.0
                            ^^^^^^

1,000,000 miles ?  or, did you mean 100,000 miles ??  If it's a million,
what the hell kinda car is it???    

    Note 53.66 is not being written any longer. NOtes bombed me out
    with an error,.. wrote only the title,.. and didn't include my
    text where I explained to JC that it was only 100,000 miles,.. and
    to Jim that I did not take any pictures,.. heck I alomst lost control
    without trying to simultaneously taking pictures... :-0
    
    
    c u
    						/
    

    well, I no longer have a Whale.....THE whale was a 1967 International
    3/4 ton pickup with no less than 25 dead stickers on all surfaces. 
    The truck had lots o class, but needed lots more work (something I'm
    not too inclined to do on cars, esp. when there's 3-4 major jobs
    needing done) So....for $2600, the Whale and a 12-pack of homebrew
    I now have a 1971 1 ton 4x4 Chev PU with a chevy350 shortblock with a
    richadson 4 barrel (don't ask me , i'm just repeating stuff here)
    with a SYF on the front chevy emblem (fits PERFECT!) dancing skeletons
    on the rear bumper one of which the head is missing (removed by me) 
    a deadbase sticker and a FEAT sticker. (can ya tell I hate new
    cars/trucks??)
    
    I almost cryed when the Whale left for the last time.......
    
Now I need a "In the land of darkness...." sticker.
                                                   rfb

yow randy,

sounds like a great truck!!  I want to get a 70 - 72 chevy 4x4 with a 350
V8 and  4 speed manual transmission.  i need a truck for camping -- my 81
Z28 is just waaaaaayyyy toooo low for some of the places i want to go, and
deb's 87 nova doesn't have enough sack to make it...

someday...

    The Whale is gone? I liked that truck, it had character.
    
    - Ger.

    my "new" chevy is a 4 speed, JC. That granny gear will climb a  wall. 
    I need to come up with a name for the green chevy...it's the same color
    as the Forest service trucks here in Colo. 
    
    The Whale got it's name when it broke down in the DEC parking lot on a
    Friday afternoon, we left it and returned early Sat. morning to "fix"
    it. There it was all alone in the parking lot...looked like a beached
    whale (it's white)...the name stuck.
                                        rfb

    We (it was a communal car) had an old 195? Buick that was green (when
    I was in school) that was a 3 speed on the column ...we painted the
    tires white and then put five stars on each door (looked like an 
    impotant military veeehikle)...that came to an early death when decided
    to take it for a drive thru a corn field late one night and down
    shifted into reverse not second going at about 30 mph (boy was that 
    fun driving and knocking all these corn stalks down)..lots-o-noise
    then it just died....I got real lost and ended up sleeping in the 
    thing till morning then skeedadled so mr. farmer wouldn't get me
    well I got caught any how when we went back to have it towed..lucky 
    he was a good guy and the corn was outta season....any way the name
    of that car (it was painted accross the hood) was "THE GENERAL"
    
    sorry for rambling but it brought up fond memories
    
    rich

Those 60's Innernationals just never die...

Fog_who_used_to_drive_a_63_Innernational_called_the_"tangerine"_which_had_over_
350,000_miles_onnit_overloaded_with_10_campers_and_hauling_a_trailer_with_five_
canoes_onnit_over_the_northern_woods_of_maine_roads,_which_I'm_sure_most_of_you_
know,_are_kindly_referred_to_as_"unimproved"_roads...

    
    As for a play on words... how's about "GreenPiece" [sic]
    
    TreeTrying to be creative

    re. .71

   My brother has a green Chevy Suburban, he calls it the "Green Machine."
    

I think you should call it Bertha. I mean it is all dressed in green ready to 
go down onto the scene right:-)

Geoff

Randy!

How will I ever find your house again with no WHALE in front.

	~dave_who's_gonna_miss_the_monster_too

My car has several names:

	- black monster
	- rocket sled
	- the bomb
	- S___box

Someday, when y'all are camping and indulging, a name will be born for your
new beast...

	Hoagie - my brown and tan VW microbus - turned over to
	148,000 miles yesterday!

>	Hoagie - my brown and tan VW microbus - turned over to
>	148,000 miles yesterday!

I'm up to about 141,000 or so on the "Black Monster."  The actual indicated 
value is about 136,500.  A while ago, the odometer broke and I estimated 
that I put on about 5,000 during breakage.

This is a car I maintain 99.9% myself with many, many recylced parts from
local boneyards.  I've owned it for nearly 5.5 years.

My Toy Truck has 118941.6 on it. The odometer sais 101960 but because of the 
big tires on the truck every 6 miles on the odometer is actually 7 miles.

Still runs like a top and gets me in and out of some very tight places.

Geoff

My  Tempo has 161700 give or take a mile or two...still runs good, needs a 
tune up or timing adjustment and some radiator work (and a good cleaning 
out on the inside)..other than that its still in fairly good shape for the
wear and tear it gets




Jim

    My Harley turned 5000 last weekend.
    
    Scott
    

WOW! Scott.  Didn't you just get the Harley recently?  If so, looks like you
like that bike!! ;-)



so jim, how is the oil change dept. doing for the Tempo?

:-)

    My Subaru is closin' in on 150K ... at which time I'll buy it another
    Dead sticker to celebrate the occasion.
    
    ... Bob (who_likes_perusin'_the_magic_sticker_book_at_Shaky_Jake's)
    

    RE:84
     Good for you Scott.
    
    
     Mine just turned 20000 last week, going to to put about 2000 more on
    it
    in August...Vacation time!
    
    
      Divide Dave
    

	My '84 Nissan Sentra hit the 150,000 mark a couple of weeks ago,
	still chuggin' along fine! 

	Now I'm looking for something to tow a boat - 1958 17' wooden 
	fishin' boat in MINT condition.   Anyone know if a 4 cylinder 1.7 cc
	Subaru wagon would do it without overloading the clutch, etc ?

	Ken

	
Ken,  I wouldn't tow that boat with a 4-banger.   For a wooden boat, you need
a V8 with rear wheel drive.

Buy an old clunker for boat hauling with a decent-sized V8.

JC, the v8 mon.

RE:   <<< Note 53.85 by BIODTL::FERGUSON "the rainbow does not have a beard" >>>



>so jim, how is the oil change dept. doing for the Tempo?




 Well, I think its the old oil that's holding the thing together, so I'm not
 about to change it now :^)






JIm

>        <<< Note 53.90 by DASXPS::HENDERSON "Financially challenged" >>>
>
>RE:   <<< Note 53.85 by BIODTL::FERGUSON "the rainbow does not have a beard" >>>
>
>
>
>>so jim, how is the oil change dept. doing for the Tempo?
>
>
>
>
> Well, I think its the old oil that's holding the thing together, so I'm not
> about to change it now :^)
>
>
>JIm


I had a car like that. it was a 1970 Chevy Nomad. It had 220000 on it and ran 
great I hadn't changed the oil in about 90,000 miles, ever since I had it. 
When it hit 220000 I changed the oil figuring I'd give it a present. It never 
ran well after that and died within 2000 more miles:-(

Geoff

The last time I can remember changing the oil in mine was the day of one
of the Garcia/Bob 'n Rob shows at Grate Woods 2 years ago :^/



Jim who adds a quart now and then

    Well Jim,.. The opther night at the White Horse after the gig was up
    and you tried to run me down in the parking lot,.. if ya remember
    I said :
    
    	" I don't let just anybody run me down ,.. thats a priviledge
    	for my friends only"
    
    BUT
    
    	Now that I know how badly you treat your car (1 oil change in
    two years,... ??? You're lucky it hasn't siezed,.. and Geoff,. that
    90000 miles without an oil change is what killed your old car,.. not
    the new oil!) I will never let you run me down again without checkin
    your maintenance log Jimbo,..
    
    								/
    
    PS Almost throught with the tapes,.. we should get together soon.
       You don't happen to have the rest of the original p[erformance by
    Stevie Ray do ya? That I'd really like to see
    
    

Yeah, I shoulda changed it more often, and the next car I have I sure will...but
this has gone so long I'm afraid to now :^/




I don't have the rest of the SRV thing..sure wish I did.  I would expect they
will rerun it at some point, but the TV Guide doesn't always say whos on the
show when..






Jim

    Jim! You could at least go to one of those 10-minute oil places.
    They'll even vacuum your car and wash the windows for ya!
    
    Yeah, I just got the bike 3 months ago. I'd rather put the miles on the
    bike than on my car, because the warranty on the car runs out in less
    than 4000 miles and I'm trying to stretch it to January when the lease
    runs out. I've gone camping on it 3 times with the girlfriend, a bunch
    of day trips, and just going to work and such. Still have a trip to
    Newport, maybe Niagara Falls and another camping trip yet this summer.
    
    Scott
    

Welp, the Tempo is in the shop after failing inspection (front brakes) and
emissions (defective veeblefetzer which caused the shmirz to frabbigate)..so
along with brakes and a tune up, I'm taking a gamble and getting the oil and
filter changed :^O.  Hopefully the thing won't collapse and die with clean 
oil and filter..



Jim

YOW Jim!  

Puttin' some love & care into the Tempo, eh?  Geez, I hope the mechinic 
knows that it is a delecate car....

Let us know how things turnout.

    That car will probably reject the new parts as incompatible.
    
    	:-)
    							/
    

Yeah, I'm a little nervous about that...it will hit 163K tonight (assuming
it still runs after all the work..




Jim

    gawd i hate it when my veeblefetzer causes my shmirz to frabbigate!!!
    my heart goes out to you in your time of trouble dude...
    
    				da ve

Well, the manner in which that shmirz was frabbigating made me..well, rather
proud..







Jim

    Jim, something about you always made me suspect you were a closet
    shmirz frabbigator...  now i'm convinced!  :^) :^) :^)
    
    				da ve

    ...omigod what will the neighbors think especially the parents of that
    little girl...
    
    rich

    Judge: Mr Henderson,.. now tell us about your shmirz
    
    Jim: Well your honor,.. I am quite proud of my shmirz and...
    
    Attorney ofr the defense (interrrupting): OBJECTION!! We have no proof
    	that this shmirz actually exists. It does not appear on the bill
    	of materials for a Ford Tempo,. and we feel that this is a
    	complete fabrigation,,.. er fabrication,.. uh oh
    
    Jim: Here ,.. use my discombobuilator,.. you'll feel better
    
    Judge: Overruled. The shmirz must be real if that discombobulator
    	   really exists
    
    								/
    

    
    
    Wow.  This place is really claimin' today.....
    

Welp, the veeblefetzer is fixed, the shmirz has quit frabbigatin' and the 
engine has yet to fall apart with the clean oil and filter..and I'm legal
again...

Are you sure your shmirz is still there?  Mine fell out a while back.  Didn't
need it, anyway

My car's older, so it doesn't run well without a shmirz.  ;^)

My odometer read 66666.6 this morning :^O








Jim

re: Jim

You have 166,666.6 miles on that car?  Yow.  You never know, Ford Motor
Corporation might want to interview you as a satisfied Ford customer.  And,
for being such a good sport, they might give ya a new one!

Yep, that's it JC!

    Then they'll offer you a free oil change,..
    
    							/:-)
    

	NEbody have a friend, or a friend of a friend who could loan me a 
repair plate (or dealer plate) for the weekend?

	My brother is moving his antique car to my house as a one-shot deal
and would rather not have to hassle with insuring/registering/inspecting/fee/
fee/fee/tax/tax/tax... 

	Btb, its a 1961 Crysler New Yorker, pink, of course, named "Gloria",
with wings the size of Lisa yetto; I guess big cars run in the family.  :-)

Thanks,

Fog

    UNless you know someone personally Fog,.. it is highly unloikely that
    they will lend you their repair/dealer plate. The insurance on those
    plates is for the owner of the plate,..as opposed to a specific
    vehicle. The owner of the plate is insured to driver any vehicle,
    but nobody else is insured using that plate,.. even if they
    own the vehicle its attached to.
    
    I hope you can find somebody. Whatever you do,.. don't do what I did
    with my '69 Camaro one fine day,.. that being to say "F it" and drive
    the thing one time uninsured/unregistered/uninspected (and by the by,
    my licenses had also been suspended) anyway,... you know what
    happens when you do that? Can you say "bail me out"???? I knew
    	you could... :-}
    
    								/
    

>	Btb, its a 1961 Crysler New Yorker, pink, of course, named "Gloria",
>with wings the size of Lisa yetto; I guess big cars run in the family.  :-)

   Well, I am not pink,... but I am a New Yorker so I suppose this is OK.

	:-)

   Lisa
	

You can get "Owner Repair" plates in Massachussetts.  They are for just that
sort of thing, and not as hard to get as regular Repair or Dealer plates
(which you have to be in the business to get).  Not sure how much they cost,
but their purpose is to allow you to transport or test-drive a vehicle that
you are fixing up.

RE:                      <<< Note 53.116 by RANGER::NOURSE >>>

>You can get "Owner Repair" plates in Massachussetts.  They are for just that

	Thanks for the tip Andy; that's just the ticket. Funny, I did search of 
the Carbuff's notesfile and couldn't find a thing on this, doubt I couldda 
gotten as quick a response there, either.

	In case anybody is interested, and asks Phyllis to find this info in
the year 2525, the number for the Dealer Repair Section of the Massachusetts
Registery of Motor Vehicles is 617-727-3726. They're the folks who issue Owner
Repair tags.  :-)


Fog

    I found it out from a neighbor back when I was living in Cambridge.
    He restores antique cars, so he has had need of such plates.
    They look like other plates, except they have 
    
     -----------------
    | O               |
    |      1 2 3 4    |
    | R               |
     -----------------
    
    and don't have the only-can-be-driven-on-Sundays-and-Holidays
    restriction that Antique plates have.

Those special plates much cost big $$$$$$$ in TaxUsChusetts.  Just curious,
how much are they?

>Those special plates much cost big $$$$$$$ in TaxUsChusetts.  Just curious,
>how much are they?

	why, 27 gazillion dollars of course.

    such a deal!  :^)  :^)  :^)

	My '84 Crown Vic former NH State Croozer turned X50,000, where X is
	some number greater than 0

	Need shocks and a new Carb, and a couple other minor repairs, but still
	going strong, and can still go 0 to 135 in less than a minnit.  :-)

	Gotta luv that high output Windsor 351!

Discaimer: I have not, nor have I ever been a moving violation.

  At some point over the weekend I should hit 170K miles on the Tempo...I don't
like some of the noises I'm hearing from it, but still seems to run OK (except
for stalling which only seems to happen when someone is in the car :^/)




Jim

    I talked about the work in the bummer note but I'll mention here the 
    the major maintainance stop was at 90K. May '88 I drove it home with 
    7 miles on the odometer. I gotta get a lot more miles out of it 'cause
    the clutch is older than the transmission and I want to wait until I've
    changed atleast on cluth.
    
    	Of course I don't want to do it in Vermont
    Geoff

re: Clutches


	If adjusted and used correctly, a clutch will come very close to out
lasting the life of the vehicle.  My father's GTI has over 175,000 on the
original clutch!  To keep your clutch alive for the longest period of time,
follow these simple guidelines:

	1) If you don't need the clutch, keep your foot completely off of
	   it (that is, don't rest your foot on the clutch pedel when you're
	   driving down the highway).  Resting your foot on the clutch
	   causes the throw-out bearing to wear out (as well as the pressure
	   plate).

	2) Do not wait at lights/in traffic with the clutch engaged.  Put 
	   the car in neutral, release the clutch, and keep your foot away 
	   from it.

	3) Always make sure you have about 1" - 2" a "free play" in the
	   clutch pedal travel.  Free play is the distance from the fully
	   released position to the position when resistence is felt.

	4) Don't use the clutch to keep yourself from rolling backwards!!!
	   I see a lot of people doing this.  This really KILLS the clutch
	   as well as your flywheel (flywheel will heat up and *could*
	   crack).

re:< Note 53.125 by ZENDIA::FERGUSON "Guinness gives you strength" >
>           -< Proper use of the clutch prolongs life exponentially! >-

>	2) Do not wait at lights/in traffic with the clutch engaged.  Put 
>	   the car in neutral, release the clutch, and keep your foot away 
>	   from it.

Why do you suggest this?  If I fully depress the clutch, how can this harm
anything?  Granted, I know little about clutches.

thanks,

adam

    Whenever you have your foot on the clutch pedal,.. there is
    pressure on the throw out bearing,.. which will wear out if
    you driver like that.
    
    The only time you are not wearing out your clutch is when you
    have your foot *completely* off the pedal.. Otherwise,.. something
    is being worn out.
    
    							/
    

    At some point (last week, I'd guess) my car hit 125,000.  Lot's
    of people have been saying lately that my car needs lots of 
    work but it still gets me from point a to point b - and back
    to point a (this last part is key).
    
    Time to change the stickers I think - those bears have started
    getting on my nerves.  They remind me of killer clowns from
    outer space or something.
    
    Heidi

 As predicted the Tempo hit 170K over the weekend..no new stickers though..
got too many on there as it is..




Jim

	we're singing the clutch blues in this family too...

	on the way home from the Jerry show Wednesday night...I
	was blissfully drifting off to a dreamland (no, I wasn't driving)
	with a smile on my face...when all of a sudden I was jerked
	back to reality when Guntis couldn't get Ruby into first gear...
	he was swearing "we might not make it home", pissed at me because
	of course it was all my fault, and mad because I just closed
	my eyes and continued smiling...well, we DID make it home,
	had no more troubles with her going into gear... but right now
	he's out in the barn pulling the transmission out to get to the
	clutch :-(...and it'll cost $160 in parts to replace :-(

	in the MEANtime, I'm back to driving Hoagie - my summer vehicle -
	you know, the one without heat - BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

	Debess

    Well, I hope to be springing my car outta the shop this afternoon. 
    Turns out I had a busted front axle(s?) ... gonna cost me a lotta $$. 
    Unfortunately, my car doesn't have heat yet either ... I've still gotta
    replace the heater core, but that's gonna hafta wait now till I recover
    from this latest financial disaster.
    
    Hopefully I'll be able to get that fixed sometime in December.
    
    ... polar_bobbb
    

just for the record - the honda I now drive has 160,000 miles on it
with the original clutch which is slowly deteriorating...time to get
it in for a new one....before I get stuck and have to figure out a
way to get from A to B without a stop sign in between....

so we're singing dem clutch blooz too.
bob

    hey bob ....just do some "power" shifts without the clutch..jest
    listen for that magic moment and wammo shift....well mebe it isn't
    that easy.....My Isuzu is doing just fine ...needs 3 new tires and
    an alignment..but it has been very dependable
    
    rich

    My Chevy Cavalier has 174,000 on it and still ticking.  I hear a bunch
    of rattling emmiting from the Catalytic converter.  It's probably all
    busted inside and probably doesn't work at all.  Wish I could just take
    the damn thing off and put a straight pipe.  
    
    dave

re   <<< Note 53.134 by SPOCK::IRONS "Setting the Standard for Deadcellence" >>>

>    Wish I could just take
>    the damn thing off and put a straight pipe.  

Why?

yeah rich,  I hear ya.

the last time a clutch went on me in the Blue Topaz I had to drive
it from Boxboro,NH to Milford, NH whilst gingerly slippin' outta
one gear and into the next.

that happened to me once before when the clutch rod went on another
ford.

bob

    re .135
    
    Cause it rattles, silly!  :^)
    
    I'm sure it doesn't help the environment by now.  It's pretty beat.  I
    also heard the catalyst inside wears out after a while thus not
    reducing emmissions.  In RI, checking emmissions is neglected heavily
    on inpections.
    
    dave

re: dave

If you wish to be a good environmental sport, you can replace your old worn
out cat. for about 75 bucks or so... apparently, someone has invented a new
type of cat. that does not use the expensive filler of the olders cats.

i put a new cat. on my camaro about 3 yrs ago, before this invention.  paid
about $160 for it...

JC

    No kiddin!  Do ca part stores have them now?
    
    dave

FWIW, the "filler" that makes some catalytic converters quite expensive
is that the catalysts are partly made from _platinum_!

Don

Not sure if Cah Pahts stores have those new catalytic converters yet.  You
could ask int he Carbuffs notes file ...

    
    I just replaced my master cylinder and one front brake line (hose)..
    now will I hafta bleed all four brakes, or can I get away with doing
    the front bleeders only??  I took a look at the rear two and from years
    of rust and what knot it will be a real pain in the neck..
    
    
    Appreciate any help,
    thanks
    Don
    

    No,.. sorry but youreally should  bleed everything after replacing the
    master cylinder. You "opened" all lines when you yanked the old master
    cylinder so,... even the rear lines can have air.
    
    							/
    

 Welp, the ol' Tempo hit 180K miles last night :-Q  Still running OK, but I
get a little nervous at times..





Jim

re     <<< Note 53.144 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Spending that renegade peso" >>>

> Welp, the ol' Tempo hit 180K miles last night :-Q  Still running OK, but I
>get a little nervous at times..

This is incredible!!!!!  You have to shoot for 250K mon!!!  A quarter of a
million miles would be something else!

 I'm workin' on it..

    Bought myself a new(er) deadmobile today ... '88 Nissan Sentra.  Like
    any used car, it's gonna need a few things right away ... like power
    amp, better speakers, dancin' bears in the back window, and mebbe an
    upgraded tape deck ... and I guess I should replace the front tires 
    too.  
    
    N.E.way ... if anyone knows anyone who's lookin' for a cheep beater,
    the ol' Subaru still has some miles left in it (just went to Buffalo
    and back) ... I wanna sell it for $200.  Comes complete with 'Dead
    stickers ... ;^)
    
    ... Bobbb
    

>          <<< Note 53.147 by CUPTAY::BAILEY "A pirate looks at 40." >>>
>                 -< gotta new deadmobile to decorate ... ;^) >-
>
>    Bought myself a new(er) deadmobile today ... '88 Nissan Sentra.  Like
>    any used car, it's gonna need a few things right away ... like power

hey mon, my new-user car needs roughly the same stuff, sans the tires.
the ford premium sound system (tm) ain't so premium, at least for the '86
model year!  i've been looking for one of those stain-glass greatful dead
stickers and nobody has 'em.  headlines was out; Unpleasant Lane Mall wanted
$8 for one and I said NFW!

still need something before my road trip... might go for a wagon wheel & roses
for the nonce until i can find the stainglass jobbie.... have to remove that
"Life Member of the NRA" sticker before cruising too...(not really into guns).

> "Life Member of the NRA"

I think it would be rather appropriate to just cover it up with a
"No time to hate" bumper sticker.  Or any bumper sticker with a pro-peace
message...

Dave

    >> i've been looking for one of those stain-glass greatful dead
    >> stickers and nobody has 'em.  
    
    Shaky Jake's in Worcester has tons-o-stickers ... bet they've got that
    one too.  I can check for ya, but not before leaving for Noo Joisey.
    
    ... Bobbb
    

    re -1
    Where is Shakey Jakes?  Near/on Rte 9 and Lincoln Square?  While my
    wife and I were going to childbirth refresher class in Worcester
    next to Memorial Hospital, we ate at a Mexican Place (Acapulco?),
    a bit west of 290 and while roaming around afterward came upon 
    a shop which looked like it might have a lot of Dead paraphenalia.
    Tiedyes, stickers, and other assorted knickknacks.  Was this 
    Shakey Jakes?  (Good seafood place across the street too, can't
    remember the name ;-)
    NOT Legals though!
                                                PeterT
    

    Yup ... that's the place.  The fancy seafood place across the street is
    called The Sole Proprietor.  It's on Rt. 9.
    
    ... Bobbb
    

From:	VMPIRE::COVERT::daemon "John R. Covert  11-Jun-1992 2005" 12-JUN-1992 01:07:06.68
To:	@DESPERADO
CC:	
Subj:	Desperado #3064: I climbed the misty mountains to the shadows of your love

{stuff deleted}

From:	DSSDEV::COMEFORD     "Keith Comeford DTN:381-2246"  
To:	VAXUUM::T_PARMENTER
Subj:	A new sport to replace the license plate game in cars? 

From:	DSSDEV::ENXING       "Hugh J Enxing"  
From:	SAMUEL::MARRA "Some will, some won't, who cares?"
Subj:	Game of the day

Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.autos,rec.autos.driving
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Subject: Trolling for Tail Lights: The Game (was Re: Ham Use of X and K band) 
Date: Sat, 30 May 92 07:48:44 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

There is a new perfectly legit and immensely fun sporting application of
A1 emissions on X & K band.  This sport even has a name, a set of rules
and a budding guild for practitioners of the art.

That art is, of course, Trolling for Tail Lights or Tactical Applications
of Negative Speed Insertion.  I am proud to be a founding member of the 
National TFT Guild :-)

Here are the rules.  Use and Enjoy!:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Trolling for Taillights (and related Effluvia)
                          Draft 3.0 (05/25/92)


Introduction

Trolling For Taillights (TFT) is becoming one of America's fastest
growing highway participatory sports.  It is loads of fun, requires
only modest equipment and achieves justice on the highway.  And it is
Good Clean Fun (TM) at least until the target has to clean his drawers.

TFT refers, of course, to the sport of communicating to other drivers
by stimulating their radar detectors and observing and recording their
responses.  Only simple radio equipment is needed:  an old microwave
burglar alarm will do fine.  More sophisticated equipment such as
a Kustom KR-11 Instant On Moving Police Radar will yield better and more
consistent results.  Nontheless $10 worth of Gunn Oscillator will
achieve quite adequate scores if the proper skills are practiced.

How it Works:

Think of RADAR as a Tractor Beam.  It's a vector-subtraction
ray, a  negative speed insertion device: If the target is ahead,
it sucks them back toward you; if they're behind, it pushes them
away. One can also think of it as a high-tech version of the
American Indian game of counting coup.   In short, think of it
as evolution in action, as in Road Warrior. 

Safety First:

Because the target of your trolling may react erratically, certain basic
safety rules are necessary.

*   No trolling of vehicles with less than two car lengths of clearance
    behind and in the lane to either side (if applicable.)  This allows
    for an Unindended Deceleration Transient (UDT.)

*   No trolling of Texas Cadillacs (pickemup trucks.) with large dogs
    standing on the toolbox.  The dog might not like it.

*   A minimum of 1/10 mile clearance between you and the target is
    required if the target is placarded with any of the following:

    "Flammable"
    "Explosive"
    "High Explosive"
    "Radioactive"
    "Nuclear Weapon"  (2/10 mile for this one.)


Special Awards:

It is desirable to recognize outstanding fishermen in our ranks.  Accordingly
the following special award catagories are established:

*   The Million Dollar Club - A million total points.

*   The Kilobrake Trophy - Causing one thousand Brake applications.

*   1000 Points of Light - Causing the most simultaneous brake lights
    in any one year.

*   Worked All States (WAS) - Snagging a trophy catch originating from each
    of the 50 states.

*   Golden Jam Award - Causing the largest traffic jam as a result of
    trolling WITHOUT involving a wreck in any one year.

If you think you qualify, contact the management for your award.  Video
tape is highly recommended for scoring purposes and for documenting
when the cop mistakes your head for a baby Harp Seal.

Rules of Engagement:

Trolling posture

    Proper trolling posture is in the right or next to right lane with
    the Radar at the ready but out of sight and de-energized.  Speed
    should be at or slightly below the speed limit.

Eligible Targets

    An eligible target is any vehicle that meets the above safety
    specifications and has a radar detector.

Target Selection

    A target proceeding at greater than 20 mph over the posted speed
    limit is the most fertile in terms of variety of actions and presents
    the best odds of winning Adders and Multipliers.

Firing techniques

    Forward - Wait until the target is a few car lengths in front of you
    and fire phasers.  Best results are achieved if the Radar is
    bounced off a sign or overpass ahead of both you and the target.  It
    is best to confine your range to that where you know your Radar
    will cause the target's detector to go full scale.

    Rear - Generally confined to eliminating Rear Bumper Dwellers because
    of the difficulty in scoring, the best technique  is known as the
    Annie Oakley style.  Simply lay the Radar across your shoulder and
    fire.  Since you are achieving line of sight contact with his
    detector, the results are spectacular.  The Tractor beam in action.

Setting up for Subsequent Shots:

    If you have a target that appears to be fertile for a repeat multiplier,
    the best technique is to wait a minute or two and then pass the
    target.  This encourages the target to resume trolling speed again.
    Lead the target for awhile to build his confidence and then lift the
    throttle and coast.  Allow the target to pass you again and when
    you achieve minimum clearance, fire again.  Repeat Phasors coupled
    with the vague recollection in the target's mine that you just
    slowed way down will generally lead to spectacular trolling.
    This technique can be use up to about 5 times (10 on yuppys and lawyers)
    on a given target before he figures something's up.  About the
    4th or 5th shot is the optimum time to set the target up for
    a nuke (see definition below.)  The use of an intergalactic communicator
    (CB) is vitally handy for assessing the conditions favorable
    for nuking.

Special Techniques and Definitions:

These techniques have been found to produce better scores than shooting
for lone targets.

Nerd Herding:  If you spot multiple cars equipped with radar detector, you
    can herd them into a cluster by zapping them each time one tries to pass
    another.

Wolf Pack:  Played by two or more cars in convoy, communicating on an
    obscure non-CB frequency:  Wingman trails leader by about 1/2 mile, spots
    targets and gives early warning to leader.  Leader fires rearward, hitting
    the marks with a strong head-on signal.  Wingman confirms hits.  Leader and
    wingman try to see how many marks they can herd between them.

Left Lane Bandit Blasting:  This dual purpose technique yields good scores
    and frequently busts up Left Lane Bandit clumps.  This is the one
    instance where  clearance rules are relaxed.    This is used
    when the trolling vehicle is stuck behind a bunch of left-lane-bandits
    proceeding side by side with geriatrics (real or premature) in the
    more right lanes.  If there are more than 3 or 4 cars in the clump,
    odds are one vehicle will have a radar detector and will be driven
    by a target who will respond to the troll even when going below the
    speed limit.  Also known as the Paranoid Factor.  Technique is
    to lift throttle (to give you some room) and firing into the
    crowd.  The inherent entropy introduced by the tractor beam
    will tend to scatter the cars so that you can find a way through the
    mess.  You bust a left lane bandit and score at the same time.
    Also known as "Bumper Cars."

Yuppy Puppy: Canine Critters, generally of a large/exotic/expensive breed
    and always an utterly stupid, undisciplined monster.

Yuppy Larvae:  Similar to Yuppy Puppy except of human origin.  Generally
    the result of her taking something seriously he poked at her in fun.
    Also known, depending on context and age,  as "accident", Yard Ape,
    Busted Rubber, Curtain Climber or Precious.  Personality characteristics
    are almost identical to the Yuppy Puppy except that the Larvae is
    louder and is generally allowed in restaurants and movie theaters
    where they do maximum damage.


Scoring:

Scoring is done in accordance with the following table.  This table recognizes
the added value of multiple hits on a given target and on the difficulty
inherent in getting multiple responses from one hit.

The easiest way to score is to get one of those handheld counting "clickers"
like are used by the gate keepers at the ballpark to count fans.  This
is that chrome golf-ball sized orb that contains a mechanical counter and
a pushbutton that increments the count.  Available from your local office
supply store for a nominal price.  Scores can be kept in a log book
for submittal to the management.   Winners (and L00zers) will be
recognized accordingly.


Basic scoring: What the target does:  Select all that apply and add.

Looks about, slows down                   = 1 point
Tail lights                               = 2 point
Hard braking                              = 3 points
Lane change                               = 3 points
Hides his radar detector                  = 4 points
Blue smoke from tires                     = 5 points
Hits an exit                              = 10 points
Turns off detector                        = 10 points.
Pulls over and fakes car trouble          = 12 points
Hits median and goes the other way        = 15 points


Bonus Adders:  Add these bonus points to whatever you got above:

Fuzzy dice                                 + 1 point
Suction Cup Garfield (or other critter)    + 1 point
Was already below the speed limit          + 2 points
Cellphone in use                           + 2 points
Radar detector has cord draped across dash + 2 points
Eating/drinking interrupted                + 2 points
    "   "   "       , stuff spilled        + 4 points
Audio hit *                                + 3 points
Yuppy puppy  on board                      + 3 points
Yuppy larvae on board  (see definitions)   + 3 points
""  "" "" with sign announcing same        + 5 points
Slapping of yuppy larvae interrupted       + 4 points
Vanity tag                                 + 5 points
CB                                         ** see below
Makeup being applied                       + 6 points
Head to head hit (opposite direction)      + 8 points
Bimbo (male or female)                     + 10 points
Sexual act interrupted                     + 15 points
Off-duty cop                               + 20 points
Fully dressed police cruiser               + 30 points
Confirmed lawyer                           + 40 points
Lawyer w/vanity tag that says "Tort"       + 50 points

*   Audio hit - when you're close enough to hear the target's detector
    alarming.
**  CB radio.  Take 5 points for initial report of your hit on CB radio
    and 5 points for each 10 minutes it's talked about.

Just all 'em all up and then do the multiplier.

	
Multipliers:  Take all that apply.

Each subsequent hit on a target            X (count of hits on that target)
Yuppy scum                                 X 2
BMW/Benz/Porche/Jap clone thereof          X 3
Motorcycle                                 X 5  (reflects rarity)
Yuppy puppy bus (minivan)                  X 4
Lo-riders, similar vehicles                X 3
Junker                                     X 2
Nuke *                                     X 10

* "Nuke" is the term used when the target is baited into busting a
  real radar trap.  Ticket must be issued to count.

Penalty box:  Subtract these points:

Target shoots back with single digit of the hand      - 2 points
                        with radar                    - 5 points
                        with gun                      - 10 points
Caught for speeding while trolling                    - 10 points
Caught for more serious infraction while trolling     - 15 points
Operating without a radio license                     - 20 points
Getting trolled by another competitor *               - 20 points
Getting caught by the Phuzz without license           - 25 points
Getting caught by Uncle Charlie without license       - 30 points
Having trolling implement confiscated                 - 40 pts + disqual.
Caught for speeding by RADAR while trolling           - 50 points

*  Defined as responding as a target to another competitor's tractor beam.

OK guys, let the Games Begin!

Sincerely,

jgd@dixie.com         (Comendante of the Riders of the Purple Phase Chapter)
reid@ucs.indiana.edu
Founders and Charter Members of the TFT Guild

{stuff deleted}

 Well, yesterday I officially signed over the Tempo to the insurance folks and
 sent them the keys..1986 Ford Tempo..dead at 184423 miles :-(




 Jum

    
    
    RIP
    
    

It served you well, even that night last year at the White Horse when it took
you 15 minutes to get it started. :-)

adam

    Jim,
    Sending good vibes to help you in your loss~~~~~~~~~~~~
    
    Rose
    

 Well, I'm over all that.  Now just trying to figure out what to buy next :-)





 Jum

    Buy something really *way* too big, like a cadillac.
    
    Bright metallic pink.
    
    heh.

  I drove a Saturn Friday night and was real impressed with it, though it may
  be a little bit more than I wanted to spend right now..I'm trying to figure
  stuff out to see if I can do it.  Other than that I'm still leaning towards
  a Honda..hopefully the end of this melodrama will occur in the next week or
  2.  I would really like to have my own car again :-/





 Jum

Hey Sparky ...


Fog has a pink Cadallic in his garage .. circa late 50's? .. with "wings the
size of Lisa Yetto" and we measured and yes, it really is true.....

    How whunderful!!!!!!
    
    
    :) :) :)
    
    Yay! Fog!

Its not a caddy, I would NEVER put a GM car in my garage.  :-)

Its a '61 Crysler New Yorker, original (pink) paint.

    we went UP the road this weekend....4x4'd Patty to Coony Lake, sets at
    about 12,400 ft. up close to the top of Mousquito Pass. She almost
    broke the little wing thingy off the Scout vent window hangin on for
    dear life...no cliffs or anything, just WAY up thar in the tundra on an
    old wagon/4x4 road with rocks the size of watermelons bouncin 
    off the bottom of the scout and 2 lakes to cross with water up to the
    doors....nothing growing around the lake except pure tundra, bout .25
    inch tall, except for the flowers of the little tundra plants, which
    were about .5 inch tall. There's a microbe of alga or something that
    lives in the snow above treeline, when you walk on the snowfields, it
    damages the alga, which turns the snow blood red to orange...cool
    colors!!!!
    
    Saw a coyote tryin to sneak up on a family of geese, dad knew he was
    comin...saw a couple of immature GRATE Blue Herons on the S. Platte
    too. caught 11 good size brookies too. 
     

Hey LKGer's, I'll be hangin out by the big ugly blue box up thar this afternoon.

Fog

 They're hauling the ol' Tempo off to the junkyard today :-(


 Finally settled with the ins co but still haven't bought a new car.  Still
leaning towards a Honda...one more piece of the puzzle to go.




Jum

    I think you should take the rest of the day & spend it in
    memorial, sitting in the sun.
    
    

 I'd love to....but I took yesterday off and sat in the rain %-/




 I'm still driving a rental which the ins co is paying for til Friday.  After
that I pay for it until my ex settles on her refinancing of the house we own
and pays me, which hopefully will be next week..





Jum

    
    I'm starting to look at hondas too. what kind of hondas are you looking
    at. my car hunt isn't as critical as yours but i'd still like any info
    from the front lines that i can get. 
    
    :-Chuck

 I'm looking at a Civic DX or VX..VX has a few more gizmos on it which I'd
 like to have..price should be around 11K or so.





 Jum

    Well, honda is a gooood choice to be thinking about guys!  I've got an
    '83 Accord with 121,000 miles and still runs great!  They also hold
    their resale value like crazy.  I picked mine up for $2500 from a
    friend, but could verrrry easily sell it for 5000 cuz it's *loaded*
    with ALL options including *very* dark tinted windows...and my Dead
    stickers of course!! ;'))
    
    rochelle

    
    
    You'll also get nothing but good words from me about Hondas.  We have
    two of them.  I drive an '85 Prelude w/ 133,000 miles and its running
    great.  It's been through some parts, but the engine is REAL strong,
    and I fully expect to get another 50k miles out of it.
    
    Last September we bought a new Accord LX Station Wagon (new model) for
    Stacy.  This thing is a dream!  Smooth rider... etc...  
    
    Resale value is true...  Hondas have *the* highest resale value of all
    of the popular brands, only Toyota comes close.  
    
    Tree

Me too!  Ditto.

Hondas for my money.  I drive an 86 accord with 175,000+ on it and the guy who
works on it when it needs it offered to by it last time he did a tune up on
it.   We just bought another one too. 

>    Last September we bought a new Accord LX Station Wagon (new model) for
>    Stacy.  This thing is a dream!  Smooth rider... etc...  

Tree mon,  We looked at these very closely.  They are NICE!  We ended up
buying the Civic wagon which is a neat little wagon they don't make anymore...
or at least the new wagon (is it called a Civic?) is more like a hatchback.

>    of the popular brands, only Toyota comes close.  
 
Yeabutt then you have to find a Toyota dealer who can come close to a Honda
dealer.  Due to the legalities of this company notes file I won't start to
rant or rave about Toyota and their southern NH dealership.

bob

    They don't make Civic Wagons anymore.  Or else I'd be driving one!
    Wanted to trade the old one in for a 4WD version, but it wasn't
    to be.  The old one died with 181+ thousand miles on it, though
    it might have lasted longer if I'd been diligent about changing oil 
    and such.  I think they reworked the engine (valve had blown, cylinder
    flaked away, such technical terms) and resold it.  We pass by it
    every now and then.  Not too far from Jack's Saloon in Uxbridge ;-)
    The new Honda wagon's are Accords.  But no 4WD that I know of.  
    So we bought a 4WD Subaru wagon with anti-lock brakes and airbag.
    Bit more than we've ever paid for a car, but it's pretty nice.
    Now let's hope I still have a job so I can keep it ;-)
    
    PeterT
    

    
    Sounds like you got the Legacy wagon, right? Did you find a good
    dealership? Subaru and Toyota are also on my list of cars to look at. 
    
    Anybody out there own or know anyone how owns a Saturn? Scary but this 
    time there are actually a couple of American cars on the shopping list,
    truely a first. (At least for me)
    
    :-Chuck

    re -1
    Chuck,
      Hard to say whether any dealership is "good".  I felt I did OK, 
    though another Subaru place was willing to offer about 2K less!
    (Then why did I not take them up?  Strong-arm salesmen techniques, 
    nothing in writing, and I didn't feel like breaking my agreement
    (and cancelling check, etc))
    The salesman was a deadhead!  Found out after the fact, and now
    we're trading tapes!  It was the Legacy wagon, L+ rather than
    the LS  (what, no manual transmission?!!)
    
    PeterT
    

Well, and this is just a matter of opinion, but around these parts (Worcester)
I'll take my Toyota dealer over 3 or so local Honda dealers ... also over
another local Toyota dealer as well - guess I just lucked out.

But, for what it is worth, I got a real good feeling from the Mazda/VW/Volvo
dealer on Shrewsbury street as well....

I drove a Saturn a couple weeks ago..I loved the car. I drove the SC which is
the "sporty" model..it was fully loaded with a lot of stuff I could probably
do without, but it was a very nice car to drive.  Just a little bit more than
what I want to spend right now. 


But their approach to marketing, selling and servicing the cars is a totally new
unique experience..no pressure ( they don't have to...they can't keep the cars
in stock they're selling so fast)..if I could swing it I'd buy one in a minute.
I still may.


Check out DLOACT::CARBUFFS in the Saturn note and see what people are saying
about them.





Jum

    
    ah, a pointer, just what I was lookig for. Thanks!
    
    :-Chuck

    MY wife bought a Saturn about 9 months ago. She got the SL-2 which 
    is the sedan, four door.
    
    Her goals were american made, front wheel drive. She being a librarian,
    she read Consumer's to start her search, and narrowed it down to a
    Mazda 626 and a Honda Accord. (Interesting as American made...).
    
    The Saturn was too new to be rated. She has a friend who has one, and
    based on that recomendation, she entered the Saturn in the pool.
    
    Her final assesment was that, in rond numbers, the Saturn at $10K
    was a much better deal that the other two at $20K.
    
    I agree with the sales/marketing approach, and all.
    
    I like the car a lot myself, by the way.
    
    She got hers a Gallo, in Worcester.
    
    

re: vaca cars

We rented a car for a week while out west ($257 for 10 days).  We first had
a mustang conv. ... traded it in the next day because we didn't have enough
space for all of our shit.  Got a Tempo.  We ran this sucker for 2240 miles
w/o a hitch.  Not a bad car - fully loaded and all - however, I would have
preferred a manual transmission.

While in the west, I noticed that the majority of folks out there drive
american cars: fords, chevies, dodge.  this is especially noticible in the
truck dept where maybe 1 out of 20 is from an off-shore mfgr.

A Tampon? Blech!  Couldn'ta been much werse than our Cutless (Cierra) Wunder.
Man is that thing awful! I hate GM cars! The doors automatically locked after 
you put the car in gear, removing the last vestige of free will I have, but the 
seatbelts are still manual. The trunk wouldn't close properly and the flasher 
blinker ticked at about 80 DB. The car was designed for old people to lock 
there keys into it...

Anyhow, what the rental acompanies call a full size car anymore is a travesty; 
my old toyota had more headroom, leg room and trunk space than this thing. 
Can't complain about the $154.00 weekly price tag after DEC discount, though, 
especially with unlimited miles, which we needed!

	And Yeah, even though it rains a lot in the N.W., cars don't rust much 
since there is no need for salt on most roads. i think the _average_ pickup I 
saw was 20 years old.  Saw lots of old classics I never see out here anymore.
Maybe, just maybe, if Clinton gets elected, alternatives to salt will be 
legislated on our roads.  Who says I'm a pessimist.  :-)

    What I noticed about the trucks out west, while I was in Seattle 2
    years ago, is that none of them have plow frames! None!
    	Seattle was melting away an 8 inch snow fall that crippled the city
    for two weeks. I read an editorial in a local paper where someone was 
    stating that they should bring back cable cars, 'cause they wouldn't
    get stuck in the snow. I thought about responding to that suggesting
    they could get away a lot cheaper and more succesfully with just a
    couple o' snow plows. I was really amused by how devistated they were
    by a snow fall no deeper than the one I was driving in a couple days
    after I got back.
    
    

    re .183
    
    that could be colo yer talkin about there!
    rfb

    Does anyone have any helpful hints on how to deal with car salespeople?
    A friend of mine wants to buy a Cherokee but she is getting a real 
    runaround with the salespeople. She wants a '92 but they insist on
    trying to sell her a '93! They also wanted to test drive her car and
    even take it to a garage to check underneath the car. Personally, I've
    never heard of that move before. She also wanted to know what the usual
    markup is on new cars.
    
    Thanks in advance!
    
    Mike

   <<< Note 53.185 by KOBAL::MROGERS "DARE to keep your kids off the GOP" >>>

Mike,

Number one - have her go to the library and look at Consumer Reports New
Car Buying Guide.  This will help her figure the new car mark up.

Number 2 - if she feels the least bit uncomfortable with that dealer then 
she should walk out and go to another and if she is mad she can tell them
on her way out to see figure 1. :)  This is THE most important part (if you
ask me) about buying something expensive.  I don't want to be pressureed
or even deal with a person I don't like.

Number 3 - If they are giving her a good amount of money on a trade for her
current car then yes, they can be just like you or I and protect their invest-
ment.  If it was a clunker they might even say we don't want it or give her 200
bucks for it to try and keep from having to take it in trade.  

first note in ages,
bob

 I have never heard of the test drive thing either, but it been a while since
I've had a trade in worth looking at :-)



As far as the markup is concerned what you might wanna do to help her out is
go to the Credit Union and get new car price lists from them..that will have
the wholesale price of the car and options.


And I would think the dealers would be dieing to unload 92's that they have
around..




Jum

Also, have her call the Better Business Bureau to see if there have been 
complaints against this particular dealership registered recently...

They will also be able to give her info about the nature of their practices 
regarding the their test drive requests, and give her lots of advise on how
to deal with car salesmen.

Remember, since she is making a $20,000 decision here, it would definitely
behoove her to do lots of research. 

    Mike, 
    
    Where is your friend located.  I bought my Cherokee at Medlyn Motors
    in Milford, NH.  Its a really small dealership and only has one 
    salesman - the owner.  I found him really easy to deal with.  When
    I went there he came out in work clothes and looked liked he been
    working on a car (they also are supposed to have an excellent service
    department but I havent had to use it yet!).  I asked him if I could
    speak to a saleman and he said I'm it.  It was kind of surprising
    but very refreshing.  Anyway, depending on where you are it might
    be worth the drive.  I usually hate buying a new car (can't stand
    pushy sales people) and I found it to be pretty painless this time.
    I also really love the car!
    
    
    Robyn

    how to deal with a car saleperson....? you mean you CAN deal with them?
    
    I've never had to trade one in before...most were towed away to the big
    car crusher in the sky ! or I did the crushing myself !
    
    when I worked for GM many moons ago, Gannon Motors (which is now no
    longer), they would take a trade-in to be car for a quick spin in the
    lot but no big road test , unless it was a rilly nice car (vette's
    caddys) that seem to have a high trade in value....
    
    Gannon's was one of the most layed back new car dealer I've ever seen,
    you had to look for a salesperson some times....they helped you buy a
    car not forced it down your throat or tried to make buy a car that they
    have too many of.....
    
    the best thing you can do is walk out and go to a place that will treat
    you like a person. and of course tell them (and any one with in the
    showroom) how displeased you are with the service.....
    
    Chris
    

    
    re .185
    
    Another vote to go with the Consumer Reports! I have the 1992
    Automotive edition of the magazine and the "How to Buy a New Car" 
    book both of which I'd be more than happy to lend if you'd like 
    to look at them. 
    
    CR also has a deal where for a fee they'll send you a computer print
    out of what the dealer cost of the vehicle is and what the dealer cost
    of each available option. This allows you to deal UP from the dealers 
    cost and not DOWN from the sticker price.  
    
    I also agree with the if you're the least bit uncomfortable with the way 
    a dealship is making you feel walk away, fast! I did this with one Honda 
    dealership and let them know they screwed up. 
    
    As far a trading goes, if a salesman askes if you're gonna trade your
    car say no up front. Make your best deal on the new car then "change 
    your mind" on the trade and be sure to let them know that a poor deal 
    on the trade will most definitly jepordize the new car deal you just
    made. IE treat the trade well or I'll walk.
    
    This and many other points of wisdom gleened from my CR helped me get 
    a great deal on the new car and also a good deal on my trade. 
    
    If you're interested in the mag. or book send me some mail and I'll 
    send them to you.
    
    Also on a slightly different note, if anyone is in the market for
    either an Accord or a Civic sedan I have the Consumer Reports computer
    printouts that list dealer cost for the DX, LX and EX trim lines 
    since I no longer need them they're up for grabs.
    
    :-Chuck

    Thanks to everyone for the input (and horror stories:-)).
    
    Mike

Not sure if you're planning to pay cash or not, but, paying cash does
have its advantages... no paper work for the dealing... just good ole
us currency makes it easy on them...  whenever i have to make a large
purchase, i use cash as leverage.  it works.

    Some of us prefer to sign on the dotted line . . . 
    

    cash??....I can't find that in my dictionary???? or in any of my
    pockets...
    
    rfb

Get into debt early....that way you've got the rest of your life
to pay it off!

Dave (who-hates-being-in-debt-so-I'm-not-'cept-for-my-house-and-car)

 Well, the Honda is getting about 42MPG...would be interested to see what I
 would get if I wasn't such a lead foot.






 Jum

WOW!  42 mpg!  Alright Jum!!  Sounds like an environmentally correct auto
you have!

 Well, it could use a wash :-)






 Jum

> Well, it could use a wash :-)
    
    Nah, just keep the windshields clear (with the exception of a few
    stickers ;-) and throw some seeds on top!
    
    PetertT_who_lived_on_a_dirt_road_till_they_paved_it_recently_and_
    now_I_don't_have_an_excuse_for_not_washing_the_car_:-(
    

So a couple of months ago the dashboard "clock" in my Isuzu Impulse went a
little haywire.  I put quotes around "clock" because the thing not only shows
the time, but also the date, how many gallons of gas I have in the tank, how
many miles per gallon I am getting, miles since last fill up, miles to the
next full moon, and all sorts of other useless information.

But anyway, the thing went bonkers and it just rapidly flashes random digits
and other cool patterns.

So my car is in the shop for a normal tune up.  When I filled out the night
drop slip last night, I included the instruction "Also check out the dash
clock, as it has gone haywire.  Is there an easy and cheap way to fix it?"

The service manager just called me and said they all got a kick out of my 
"easy and cheap" question.

And then he said, "are you ready to hear this?  The only way we can figure
to fix it is to replace the whole unit.  We looked up the part.  It costs
$1272!"

Ha!  So we had a good laugh over the idea of spending twelve hundred dollars
to replace the *clock* in a car with a hundred and three thousand miles on it!
I think I will opt for the two dollar solution of covering the display with a
little electrical tape and a putting a stick-on clock over top of it!

tms

Funny, but obscene, too, since if the clock broke in an accident, some
insurance company would be obligated to pay that $1,272, and then in turn raise
their rates to cover the difference... 

...somebody please remind me to steer WAY clear of that Subaru!!!




- jeff-who-just-got-his-insurance-bill

> ...somebody please remind me to steer WAY clear of that Subaru!!!

Errrr, my Subaru is an Isuzu!

No, I'm not kidding you! ;-)

tms

    Trust him.
    
    Joe Isuzu
    

>     Trust him.
    
...just as long as it's built to stay that way...

- jeff

    
    
    
        Jeff "Treemon" Riley
        dtn: 226-6165
        ljohub::riley
    
    
                    *  1985  Honda  Prelude
                    *  135k Miles
                    *  Charcoal Grey exterior, light grey interior
                    *  Engine in Excellent shape
                    *  Body in very good shape
                    *  Power Moon Roof
                    *  Air Conditioning
                    *  Power Assist Steering
                    *  Power Brakes
                    *  5 Spd - Manual Transmission
                    *  Alpine mfgt. AM/FM Cassette Stereo w/ Equalizer & 4
    		       Speakers
                    *  Tinted Rear Windows
                    *  Fold down rear seats for trunk access & added room
    		    *  Steal Your Face Sticker on Rear Window!  Slipknot
    		       sticker on Rear Bumper!
    
        New or Replaced Components:
    
        Timing Belt, Tires, Starter, Alternator, A/C, Clutch, Battery,
    Brakes, Exhaust system.
    
        Others:  Car meticulously maintained.  Oil changed by owner every
    3,000 miles,  Premium gasoline used,  Driven conservatively, Regular 
    tune ups.
    
        Book Value:         $3275
    
        Asking Price:       $2800
    
        Reason for selling:  I really wanted to hold on to this car for
    another few years, but toting my drums around requires a larger car:^).
                                                                          

RE:	-< Treemobile for sale >-

	and the added feature of PLENTY of HEADroom in the back !!!
	;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

Heh heh, I've got this image in my head of the scen in Harry and the Hendersons 
where everytime harry gets into the car he's got to bend out a section of roof 
for his head...

:-)

    
    
    RE: Debess  :^)
    
    For the rest of you...  The recent shows in Albany were witness to
    /-mon and me camping at the same place as Debess and Guntis (about 20
    miles from Albany).  The campground was very nice, & loaded with folks
    seeing the show too :^)  Needless to say, Debess and Guntis felt out of
    sorts not having their children with them, so /-mon and I volunteered
    to be their surrogate kids for the day of the second show...  
    
    We had a very peaceful time sitting around strumming the acoustic and
    singing, and enjoying each other's company, and swinging on a near by
    swingset, and enjoying the sunshine.  Debess & Guntis made us an
    *excellent* dinner by camp stove, something with lots of BEANS...
    anyway I volunteered to be the driver, and it made sense to take one
    car instead of two, unfortunately the one car was my Prelude, with
    Debess and Guntis in the back seat!  
    
    If you don't know, the back seat in a prelude is nothing short of
    ornamental, and it was quite a trip listening to Guntis tear apart
    Japanese design methods while seeing (in the rear view mirror) his faced 
    stuffed against the ceiling of the car!  Thus Debess' reference!
    
    Tree

    Right now, I'm driving a Toyota Corolla - must be about 1.3 litres or
    so under the hood.  it is a right-drive (steering opposite USA),
    standard shift (with your _left_ hand)... fortunately, the pedal
    arrangement is identical to the US - left foot clutch, right foot brake
    and gas.  Also, the car has a Kenwood stereo - good for dead tapes and
    the like during my travels.  
    
    when i get home and into my 5.0 litre car, I invariably leave a decent
    patch of rubber the first time because i'm used to the 1.3 litre
    needing full throttle to get going, not to mention, the clutch in my
    mustang is a bit more "beefy" and tends not to slip at all.
    
    great fun driving here - people actually use their blinkers and mean it
    while they drive.  much more predictable here, unlike my experience in
    the states.  nearly 100% of the roads are 2-way, that is, no dual-lane
    highways; needless to say, you must become proficient at passing in
    tight winding roads to get around the tractors, slowpokes, etc.  Also,
    you always need to be on the lookout for a heard of cattle or sheep
    that might be crossing the road (up in the Connemara country)....
    
    fun fun fun

    it must be a bad car week...and im not a dave....I had to get 3 new
    tires today... and I even put them on the rims !
    
    after going into work for the sole purpose of getting money out of the
    DCU with Julie I got a flat @ 100 ft from home...not bad timing on the
    tires part ! so I called the shop but they were closed (opened at noon)
    so I call my dad and he came over and picked me and Julie up, and the
    three tires ( one was flat one was no better than the flat one and the
    other just looked left out !) so we dropped Julie off at my Mom's and
    she endding up playing with her cousin Britt.....Dad and I went to see
    if the shop was opened yet...but it was not...so we went to my
    brother's new house to see what was up ! Well he needed us to go to the
    store get some stuff for him so off we went, when we went by the shop
    Tommy the manager was just pulling in....we got out and dragged the 3
    tires into the back room...dad left and I went to work changing the
    tire...got 3 rilly good used tires for the lowlowlow price of some
    elbow grease and a 12 pack of beer ! it is a holiday ! so now I got
    some good tires and a sould mind to drive my car far !
    
    
    and I took today off as a vacation day !
    
    Chris

    >> it must be a bad car week...and im not a dave....
    
    Yes it must be ... and im not a dave either ... gotta put the car back
    into the shop tomorrow to have the oxygen sensor replaced.  This one's
    only gonna cost me about $60 ... pocket change compared to what I gave
    them last week.
    
    I guess this is what happens when you buy a Japanese car that was made
    in the USA ... :^(
    
    If it breaks down again I think I'm gonna pour gasoline all over it and
    turn it into a campfire.
    
    ... Bobbb
    

    
    well let me tell you.. this note's making me glad I take the bus!
    
    ;-)
    
    

    
    
    Not all bad...
    
    The Treemobile is SOLD!  It'll be sad seeing it go though, I put
    six digits of miles on that puppy, and it served me loyally throughout.
    
    I hope it has a good new home!
    
    Tree
    

    
    re.214 Phyllis
    
    well let me tell you.. this note's making me glad I take the bus!
    
     "The bus came by and Phyllis got on"
    
    Don

    "that's when it all began" :-)

Excellent Treemon!!!   Did you sell it to a DEChead?   Did you get what you
were asking??  good job mon...

    
    
    No sale to a DEChead tm but I did sell it to a DECie tm, which meant
    no advertising $.  The guy is brand new to America, I believe he's from
    India, so I am helping him through the "registration" process, boy is
    he in for a quick lesson on bureaucracy!
    
    I got a fair price for it,  a little less than I was hoping for, but a
    lot more than he was planning on spending, and a lot quicker than I
    thought I would sell it, which is nice because I was keeping it insured
    (75$/month) for test driving purposes.  So we both feel pretty good 
    about the deal.
    
    It's the first car I've ever sold...  An interesting process, I have
    enjoyed it because I was *very* honest to all three prospects, and they
    could tell right away, so I blew through the Poker stage (yechhh)
    without any misgivings.
    
    This doesn't hurt the cash flow either...  Depending on what happens
    around here, it could be good timing.
    
    Tree
    

Selling a car is quite interesting, and, sometimes sad :-(.  When I sold my
camaro, that was a real bummer.  I had it for 6.5 yrs, and so many good
times in that car (I had it in college too)... I met Deb while owning it,
so she was bummed to see it go.  So, so, so many road trips.

It took a while to sell it because it was pretty much a beater and i was
asking perhaps more then it was worth.  But, I had the time, so I just waited
until someone came along.  

So, these 2 guys come along from springfield, ma to look at it.  I went on
a test ride w/ one guy, and he liked it.  Then he offered me $1200 for it
and I said, way too low (I was asking $1395).  I said I'd go $1200 w/o the
stereo.  He said what about $1300 w/ it?  And I said ok... I remember bringing
a paper bag down to empty all my stuff out of it :-( ... then, i saw it
drive off into the sunset... :-( ...  easily my most fave car ever; so much,
that i may get another one this spring.

Being wintertime and all, I figured on slippin' some 5W-30 into my engine
last night.  I have one suggestion for all the do-it-yer-self-er's out
there...

Next time y'all change your oil, remember to remove the OLD oil filter 
gasket from the block if it doesn't come off with the old filter.  I didn't,
and wound up cleaning a lot more of the garage than I originally planned.

- jeff

    This reminds me of the time I changed the oil in my Chevelle after
    purchasing the wrong filter. I grabbed the correct S-024 off the shelf
    and then thought, "No, it's an 025". I completed the oil change, did
    notice that the filter felt odd when it seated up against the block,
    then started the engine. The oil pressure never got over about 10 lbs, 
    so I turned it off and stuck my head under the car. about 3.5 quarts
    had sprayed all over the driveway, what a drag! 
    	One of those mistakes you never make twice, I hope.

5W-30, eh?  that's really light.  i'll stick to 10-40 all year around.  works
best for me.  garage?  you have a garage to wo0rk out of rich?????  

jc, who did the timing belt and acc. belts on deb's car outside before going
to ireland (brrrrrrrr!!)

    hahahaha....sorry guys but I must laugh ! while in college when I did
    everything under the sun to make a buck, and one of the many things I
    did was oil change work in a garage....well one morning after draining
    the oil from the car and putting the plug back in and changing the
    filter (I was a little light headed too) I walked over to the lift
    lever and started to lower the lift and when the car got to @3 feet
    from the floor I noticed that I did not move the oil receptical
    funnel/buckett (when I got in that morning it stood @ 5 to 6 feet high!
    I crushed the sucker to bits ! well the oil poured out all over the
    place (more then 5 qrts) I never made that mis-take again.....:')
    
    
    ah the good old days !

 Most 4 cyl cars that I know of run on 5w-30.





 Jum

>  Most 4 cyl cars that I know of run on 5w-30.

mine's a V6.  The dealer in FL recommended 20W-50 all weather grade for down
there -- not surprising.  But running 10W-40 up here in the cold winter is
asking for an early engine-death if you ask me...  ...the valve chatter
quiets a LOT sooner (after startup) with the lighter oil.

- jeff

    I usually use 10W-30 year round.  
    
    Hmmm . . . 

 Probably not...I wound up using 10w 40 in the Tempo and it lasted quite a
while.  I just determined that I'd follow the manual with the Honda and they
seem to stress the value of 5W30.






Jum

	My Nissan has a nice little chart that tells me 
	what oil to use and when (temperature wise).

	I use 10w30 year round, it's the one that appears
	the most on the chart.  My car is a 2.4ltr 12valve.

	

    I got some kind of oil in my car....right up to the full line on the
    dip stick !
    
    black gold Texas T......Jed's brand oil
    
    :')

    
    
    I use Jiffy Lube
    

	I've always used heavy 20W-50 in the summer, and lighter 
	10W-40 in the winter.  Now I used 10W-30 in the winter
	because I've heard bad things about 10W-40 not getting to
	the right spots or something at some times.  Perhaps it's
	the startup problem that was mentioned here.  176,000 miles
	later, it still runs.

	For those who don't know, if you use 20W-50 in the winter,
	it gets sooo thick when it's real cold, you may not be able
	to start you car...  I learned the hard way with the ole rabbit.

	Ken

All right!  Anyone here own or steal the station wagon I saw in the
MKO1 lot, with dancing bear, PHISH, and Amnesty Int'l bumper stickers?

- DC

...speakin' of cool deCARations, there's a wagon in the HLO lot with a X-mas
tree bolted to the top... ...with lights!

- jeff

 Really spruced up, eh?

    that last reply really needled me!!!
    
    
    (groan)

I just keep picturing Jeff Riley, with his size 15 shoes
bolted to the roof of a car, with all kinds of lights
stuck to him...

Now that's a scary picture coming down the road!!!

:-)

Dave

    ...yeah, but you should see the TRUNK...
    
- jeff

WHEEL all have to keep an eye out for it...

>I just keep picturing Jeff Riley

wow, he has a real name?

You guys better watch out. Phyllis is really going to drag someone over the 
CARpet for this on.

Geoff

Late night with Cross the Water ... man, I'm EXHAUSTed ....

I knew someone was Pining to put in a few puns. I just didn't think it would 
Branch from trees to cars. I guess with this crowd the likeliHOOD was strong, 
given a Window of opportunity...

Now it's time to wait for Phyllis to put a Muffler on this Poplar past time


jeff

    
    
    Who's this guy Jeff Riley anyway...  
    
    :^)
    
    Tree_if_you_find_him_let_me_know

re <<< Note 53.244 by LJOHUB::RILEY "Namer of chaotic individuals everywhere!" >>>

    
    
>    Who's this guy Jeff Riley anyway...  
    

Yah, really?  Our new org chart has this dude named "Jeff Riley" on it.  I
asked Treemon who that guy was....

>    Who's this guy Jeff Riley anyway...  

I dunno for sure.  Most likely someone of very little import... :-)

Dave

    
    
    Implying what... that I like domestic beer???
    
                                              :^)

>   Implying what... that I like domestic beer???
   
Jeez, don't you ever listen to Janice Joplin

"I'd like to do a song of great social and political import."

Rock-n-roll can be educational...

Dave

p.s. The Grateful Dead added the word 'Copecetic' to my vocabulary

re: -.2

don't worry Treemon, just remember that homebrew is truely domestic beer

I popped a hole in one of my $130 (ouch!) tires last weekend while taking a
joy ride around the neighborhood in foot-deep snow...


...let's hope that the $15 patch job holds!



- jeff-who-has-just-renewed-his-faith-in-the-higher-powers-that-be

    1 sidewall = replace the tire.
    
    Geoff who's blown out at least 3 sidwalls, usually on new tires,
    always in 4wd. 

 My car is about due for its 7500 mile service (which is an oil change)..if
 I take it to one of those quicklube type oil change places will doing so
 void the warranty?





 Jum

    
    
    My guess...  Technically, yes, but if the dealership is concerned about
    word of mouth like most are, they will disregard that if you have a
    problem with the car.
    
    Also, Jum, I hope this isn't the first oil change you're doing on the
    car...  Remember this ain't your old Tempo here (R.I.P.) new cars,
    especially small ones, should have oil changes every 3000 miles if you
    want to get the best longevity out of the car.  IMHO this could make
    all the difference in the world in having your car last for 100,000
    miles versus the 200,000+ that Honda engine is capable of.
    
    Any other opinions?  But of course, I don't know if you did change the
    oil at 3,000 miles either.
    
    Tree

 Yep, did change the oil at 3000.  I know there is some stuff in the manual
 about getting the oil changed at other than Honda dealers..just can't remember
 what it said.  I seem to recall it being OK as long as I had receipts that 
 noted date and mileage, but I wanted to see if anyone in here had any exper-
 ience with it.

    what does that mean anyway.....change the oil ? replace whats missing I
    understand :')
    
    Chris

    REF .252   It might void it, with a new car I would take it back
    just to be sure, 7500 sounds long between oil changes, is this
    the first one?

 Nope..1st one was at 3K.  I'll recheck the manual tonight and see what it
has to say

I can take my Toyota to any quick-lube type place w/o voiding the warranty.
Can't say if the Honda folks will be as nice....but I'm pretty sure it's
totally up to the dealer whether he'll do the work if it's based on your
word alone.  I have to have receipts for the oil/filter when I do it
myself... I've never had anybody question my warranty's validity for the
couple of random fixes I've needed -- but I've also never needed a valve
job.  

- jeff

	With my Nissan, it said you had to use 'Genuine Nissan Parts'
	(filters) or it would void the warranty.  Doesn't matter who
	changed it.  So I used em till the warranty expired.  

	I've heard horror stories first hand about some of these quick-lube
	places.   Like putting on the wrong filter, stripping filter threads,
	etc....
	
	Ken	

    I bought an extended warranty with my 1990 Celica-GTS, for $385.
    Best thing I ever bought, so far I have used it twice for a total of
    $1000 (motor for electronic roof $350, air conditioner,and condenser
    $650), there also is a clause about genuine Toyota parts, but I 
    still use Jiffy-Lube every 3000 miles, I have heard the horror storys
    but I always watch them, and check it out after I leave. 

    The two new cars I've had in my life (Chevy and Mazda I got now)
    recommended oil change every 7500 miles if it's highway miles.  I never
    took their advise.  
    
    I had my 84 Chevy Cavalier for 179,000 miles and changed the oil every
    5000 miles.  I did almost all highway.  If I changed it every 3000
    miles I'd be changing it once a month!  I not THAT ambitious.  I
    changed my own, BTW.
    
    I've been applying this philosphy with my 92 Mazda Protege.  I let you
    know what happens when it hits over 100k.  :^)
    
    HEY! HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!
    
    DAVE!!

re: Treemon and oil changes

You'd be surprised to read what the mfgr suggests for oil change intervals.
Deb's 87 Nove, which has a Toyota drivetrain, suggests every 10000 miles!
Very long!  I've been changing the oil all along in her car.  I do it every
5000.  It now has 78k on the clock.  I recently opened the engine up to
adjust the valves - the engine was extremely clean for 78k!  So, perhaps the
10k oil change interval is not all that unreasonable.  In my 81 Z28 with a
305 V8, I also changed it every 5000.... that thing went for 150k very hard
miles.

Depending on the car and your driving habits, 3k oil changes can be excessive.
5k is more reasonable, IMO....  if you are doing a lot of short trips with
lots of idling, change more frequently.  If your trips are 10+ mins, every
5k is good....

all IMO based on my layman's mechanical experience over the last 12 years.

    
    
    Hmmm,  that's interesting JC.  I'd certainly defer to your opinion on
    cars over my own.  But I guess I'll still be somewhat obsessive since
    oil changes are about the only thing I do on my own with the cars. 
    (Unless you consider self-serve car work :^)
    
    I suppose it might be kinder to the Earth to delay oil changes too, but
    not if your car's life is cut in half (add to the junk heaps in the
    world).
    
    Tree

re <<< Note 53.263 by LJOHUB::RILEY "Namer of chaotic individuals everywhere!" >>>

    
    
>    Hmmm,  that's interesting JC.  I'd certainly defer to your opinion on
>    cars over my own.  But I guess I'll still be somewhat obsessive since
>    oil changes are about the only thing I do on my own with the cars. 
>    (Unless you consider self-serve car work :^)
 
I was going to add an addendum to my note.  If _you_ are comfortable with more
frequent oil changes, then, by all means, do them!  I've heard of some folks
doing them every 2500!

   
>    I suppose it might be kinder to the Earth to delay oil changes too, but
>    not if your car's life is cut in half (add to the junk heaps in the
>    world).
 
In the state of MA, all used oil is, by law, returnable at the point of purchase
of the new oil.

BTW, Engines can be rebuilt.  If the body of your car is solid, consider an
engine rebuild before junking it....

>    I suppose it might be kinder to the Earth to delay oil changes too, but
>    not if your car's life is cut in half (add to the junk heaps in the

I agree. Change your oil only when it needs to be changed, which is when it
is "spent". There are several ways to tell if the oil is spent. If the color
blackens or you can see dirt in it, by all means change it. If it looks
clean, chances are it is clean. Just touch the dipstick with your forefinger
and rub it against your thumb, then inspect closely, if you dont see dirt or
grit and the oil isn't runny, black, or tacky, then its probably fine. Also,
high end oils last longer and IMO, are worth the extra bucks; cheap oil
breaks down faster. 

I ran my engine 35K before changing the oil. It just didn't need it. Every 
time I'd check the oil, it looked just like brand new oil.

There are no rules. A mfg that reccomends every 7.5K may need it every 3K, etc.

    
    
    Good point Fog, it is easy enough to check.  
    
    RE: JC,
    
    Yabbut, even if you return the used oil (like I do) what happens to it
    then?  It's not like it doesn't pollute the Earth once *you* get rid of
    it...
    
    Tree

re <<< Note 53.266 by LJOHUB::RILEY "Namer of chaotic individuals everywhere!" >>>
                                    -< ex >-

>    RE: JC,
>    
>    Yabbut, even if you return the used oil (like I do) what happens to it
>    then?  It's not like it doesn't pollute the Earth once *you* get rid of
>    it...
 

This is true, however, typically it is re-used in some fashion vs. putting it
down the drainhole or dumping it in the trash.  Re-used is better then having
it dumped, imo.

Save your used motor oil for friends with chainsaws: it makes great bar and 
chain lube. Also, you can use it to undercoat your car to prevent rust. Also, 
you can mix it with your heating oil.

 And it makes a great dessert topping :-)





 

It's a dessert topping AND a floor wax!

Jim,  lots of people change their own oil.  I wouldn't worry about voiding
a warranty.  I would note it in the manual though...

I'd use a Honda oil filter too.  They are much better than most.

bob

> I'd use a Honda oil filter too.  They are much better than most.

My 'yoda needs the mfr's filters because they have a special one-way valve
that keeps oil up in the top parts of the engine when I turn it off.  They
cost about $1-$2 more than the K-mart brands... ...I figure it's worth the
extra $50 or so over the life of the truck.

- jeff

re           <<< Note 53.272 by SUBPAC::MAGGARD "I am the Rhombus!" >>>
                                -< ditto that >-

>that keeps oil up in the top parts of the engine when I turn it off.  They

I wonder is this really works?  Usually engine heads have many, many journals
for oil to circulate through.  

> I wonder is this really works?  

dunno.  

The oil goes from the pump, through the filter, and up into the
heads/lifters/etc. If the filter doesn't have a valve, all the oil drains
back down when the pump stops.  If it has a valve, the oil stays and gets
pumped up to the top of the engine sooner on startup... ...or so the dealer
dude sez.  

This doesn't quite agree with what Sluggo's Encyclopedia says, however:
'Only a fraction of the oil goes through the filter.'  Maybe things are
different in newer >1990 cars?

Now that I think about it, it's prob. just another ploy...

- jeff

    In RI, most state garages have "oil igloos" where you can dispose of
    your used motor oil.  I dumped mine off last week.
    
>5000.  It now has 78k on the clock.  I recently opened the engine up to
>adjust the valves - the engine was extremely clean for 78k!  So, perhaps the
    
    When should you adjust valves, when the engine starts "tapping"
    excessively?  How do you adjust them: tighten the nut on the rocker
    arms??
    
    dave

>    When should you adjust valves, when the engine starts "tapping"
>    excessively?  

Sluggo's encyclopedia says it depends on the engine.  Some (newer ones and
Jap models I think) are designed to have a little play in them -- a
specified gap for which you'll need a special shim-gauge.  One way to tell
if you're really low on oil is that your engine will make valve noise...
...every time I start my truck it takes 1-3 seconds before the clatter dies
down, depending on how cold it is.

Others (older US models???) were designed to not have any gap, and shouldn't
make noise at any time.

...you should have them adjusted by someone you trust to know what they're
doing...

- jeff

    Don't mess with your valves if you don't know what you're doing. If
    you're learning, practice on the spare car so you won't be stuck. Don't
    do the job in January, it's supposed to be cold this time of year and
    it will only get that way if you thoroghly disable your means of
    transportation. 
    	Chances are good to almost certain that you are not in need of
    adjusting your valves unless you are running solid lifters or just did
    some head work. Even in the solid lifter case there's a long time
    between due and die.
    
    
    	But if you can find the spec. you can probably do the job.
    
    	Geoff

Check your car's manual;  if you don't have one, call your nearest dealership
and inquire about the valve adj. interval.


my experience is this with deb's toyota engine:

Job is a piece of CAKE.  You do not need to have a PHD in engine internals to
do this job;  you don't even need an equiv. HS diploma in engine internals to
do the job!!!  it took me all of 20 minutes - valve cover is easy to get off;
there is a nice, formed rubber gasket that is re-usable (can you believe that
a car company design something w/ servicability in mind??? chevy doesn't do 
this!).

basically, there are 8 valves.  you adjust 4; turn the engine 360 deg. and
adjust the remaining 4.  there's an adjusting screw and a locknut.  you need
a feeler gauge, a screw driver, and i think it was a 12mm wrench.  need to do
the procedure when the engine is hot.

some engines use shims.  this is a pain to deal with, so i am told (never had
the pleasure).

it was the first adj. i did to deb's car in 78k miles.  totaly adjustment
required was EXTREMELY minimal.

i'd leave the valves alone unless you experience some of the following:

	- lack of engine power
	- poor fuel enconomy

even with the above, you must be sure your engine is properly timed and recently
tuned up.

i'd be willing to help folks w/ valves on engines i think i can handle.  you'll
need to get the service manual though so i can read it.  the cost of doing a
valve adj. job yourself will pay for the serv. manual 4 times over!!

jc

    My advise was a reaction from the time a particularly clueless
    individual I knew at the time decided his 327 needed adjustment. 
    
    He decided, yes, the nuts were infact loose and should be tighted. 
    After he screwed it he wouldn't let anyone put a pricey mechanic 
    touch it for him. 
    
    	Personally my only experience with valve has been on various
    GM products with hydrolic lifters that never need re-adjustments.
    
    	JC, Re:GM doesn't design servicabilty.
    	You haven't dug into your Ford yet have you.
    
    Geoff only_bitchin_'cause_my_Ford_is_still_not_home
    

re           <<< Note 53.279 by MILKWY::SAMPSON "Driven by the wind" >>>
                  -< At least you can get parts for GM stuff >-

>    My advise was a reaction from the time a particularly clueless
>    individual I knew at the time decided his 327 needed adjustment. 
 
Adjusting valves on a small/big block V8 is _much_ more involved then on
today's 4 bangers.
   
>    	JC, Re:GM doesn't design servicabilty.
>    	You haven't dug into your Ford yet have you.
 
No, but I did take a good look under the hood.  Things are easy to read, very
will labeled, etc.  What I saw, I was happy with - it _appeared_ much more
serviceable then my Z28 - but, time will tell.  I have to replace a rear
wheel bearing sometime in the next 6 mos - I expect it to be about the same
as my Z28 in difficultly/design.

So there I was on Saturday, on Rt. 93 southbound, around Plymouth, heading home
after XCing up to Greeley Ponds, and then going downhilling on my XC skis
(I wouldn't quite call it telemarking), grooving on Jerry's solo on the 
6/23/74 "To Lay Me Down", when I pass a car and notice its licence plate:

N.H. IN2DED	!!!

Subj:	fyi
Subj:	If you use Rt.117, you may want to use an alternate route tonight!!!!!
Subj:	rt 117 flooded - might want to send this out to the ad group
Subj:	ROUTE 117 ***CLOSED***  FLOODING!!

Good Afternoon,

I was just informed from a member of the CAD group that Route 117
has been closed due to flooding.  I have no other information on
this.

I would suggest you seek alternate routes!

Good luck.....

/kd

Around 1:00 PM today there was about 12-18 inches of water on Causway street for 
a 50 yard stretch or so near Hosmer St.  It may be worse now.

I'd suggest seeking an alternate route to Eastern Marlboro.

    YIKES!  My 30k mile 'checkup' is costing me over $400 !!!    

    - jeff_down_another_paycheck 8-(

re             <<< Note 53.284 by SUBPAC::MAGGARD "Gone Phishin'" >>>
                    -< That's over 100 DAT tapes worth!!! >-


>    YIKES!  My 30k mile 'checkup' is costing me over $400 !!!    

'checkup' eh?  better named "gouge up" !!

dealers make lots and lots of $$$ on folks who bring their cars in for
normal checkups....


jc_a_DIYer_all_the_way_!

>                    -< That's over 100 DAT tapes worth!!! >-

>    YIKES!  My 30k mile 'checkup' is costing me over $400 !!!    

since when can you get a DAT tape for $4?  i thought the best deal around
was 90m (3 hour) tapes for around $6?  mind you, that's about the same price
per minute as using Maxell MX-S, which is one compelling reason why i'm
considering a purchase...

- rich

Don't forget to factor in those nasty MTBF's, which for DAT's are probably 
one tenth those of analog machines...

Don't get me wrong, I think DAT are simply the single best way to archive 
music right now, but these are important factors to weigh in to that final
investment decision...

    yeah, screw me now and screw me later -- if I don't get the service, my
    warranty gets voided... ...some deal huh?!  Like I really believed that
    getting a better quality car would actually cost me less money to own.
    Those dealerships and service stations hafta stay in business somehow...
    FWIW, I've probably had about $400 worth of warranty work on my car
    since I got it anyway -- replaced scratched rear window, fixed broken
    spare-tire latches, fixed sticky windows, repacked bearings, etc., etc.
    The only thing they're not doing to my car that would really make the
    service worth the $400 is clean it ;-)
    
    re: DAT tapes for $4 each
    
    Hey Rich:  PAY ATTENTION, DAMMIT!!! ;-)


> Don't forget to factor in those nasty MTBF's, which for DAT's are probably
> one tenth those of analog machines...

    True.  That's what the $4 data grade tapes are for... backups, backups,
    and more backups... ;-)

    While I'm digressing, there was an interesting comment in DAT-Heads
    yesterday from a tape dealer who claims that data grade tapes have lower
    MTBFs because they don't gunk up the deck transports as much as
    'standard' grade tapes do... ...he implied that it has little to do with
    the actual magnetic medium, but more with the other parts of the tape:
    backing, binders, etc.  He even went on to claim that some deck mfr's
    claim that you will double the head life if you only use data-grade
    tapes.  
    
    - jeff

>    re: DAT tapes for $4 each
    
>    Hey Rich:  PAY ATTENTION, DAMMIT!!! ;-)

i thought the 90m data grade tapes ran for about $6; i didn't know you could
get them for $4

>> Don't forget to factor in those nasty MTBF's, which for DAT's are probably
>> one tenth those of analog machines...

>    True.  That's what the $4 data grade tapes are for... backups, backups,
>    and more backups... ;-)

btw, what's MTBF?

/r

> >    Hey Rich:  PAY ATTENTION, DAMMIT!!! ;-)
> 
> i thought the 90m data grade tapes ran for about $6; i didn't know you could
> get them for $4

heh, heh, heh... ....Hey Rich,


    DAMMIT, PAY ATTENTION, DAMMIT!!! ;-)

        (snif, snif... I miss GerG!)

Those $4 tapes are 120min (60 meter) tapes and you have to mail-order 'em
from a certain DAT-Head...  ...and I *KNOW* you read DAT-Heads, on top of
sleeping in the same house as all my tapes... so there's no excuuuuussse for
you this time, buddy! ;-) ;-) ;-)

MTBF -- for all the other non-hardware types ;-) means Mean Time Between
Failures...

- jeff

>Those $4 tapes are 120min (60 meter) tapes and you have to mail-order 'em
>from a certain DAT-Head...

which is the same deal as $6 for a 90m tape; it was the 3 hour tapes that i
was talking about; all you had to say in the first place was that you were
talking about 2 hour tapes

anyway, it's roughly the same price/minute as Maxell MX-S, although i think
that the 90 minute MX-S tapes are more like $2.50, not $3, but i don't
remember for sure

- rich

    I'm STILL puttin money into the 85 Ford Donkey II I bought Patty for
    Xmas. grrrr...
    rfb

re: -.2 Jamie's fun time with VW dealers

A dealer tried a similar thing with us once. They show you the line items 
(50 for mats, etc) to make your negotiation less credible, which obviously 
is crap. Sticker price is marked up significantly above dealer cost. We 
were buying a car off the lot which, given the approach my wife (much more 
skilled than I in negotiations) took. She simply eliminated line items. We 
didn't want the additional rustproofing, but it was already on there. They 
wanted to move the car and couldn't take the rustproofing off the car. 
There were a couple of other items which she "got for free" like the mud 
flaps using the same tact. She also found out the dealer cost, added a good 
10% for profit and said that's what we'd pay vs the sticker.

Things like pin striping, floor mats, mud flaps and rust proofing have a 
huge markup. Surprisingly, things like air conditioning don't.

jeff

ps. Jamie's personal: is that better than having your mind lost in Fog's 
household? :-)

    There's a book which most libraries have which lists dealer and sticker
    prices for cars.  The listing was right on in regards to the sticker
    price and options, so they may be right about the dealer costs. 
    However, dealers get incentives and promos which change how much they
    pay for cars.  If I can take this info at face value, the mark-up was
    $1540.  I definitely think that Saturn has influenced dealer mark-ups
    and the amount of negotiating that goes on.
    
    
    The options I spoke of were real ones -- automatic, a/c, etc. -- not
    minor items like floor mats and mudguards.  That's ridiculous, that
    stuff adds up fast.  The only bogus item on mine is $170 for metallic
    paint, I think all the color choices are metallic.
    
    I have lost my mind at Fog's household, but I'm not sure which is
    worse.
    
    Jamie

    I have a very good friend who's a new/user car salesperson for a Ford
    dealer in Brooklyn, NY.  Here's the deal:
    
    Major money makers are rustproofing, car alarms, and financing.  This
    is where the "real" money is made.  
    
    Dealers get a rebate from the car manufacturer for every car that is
    sold and unless you mention that a special rebate is being offered you
    won't be offered it.
    
    When people lease cars they only negotiate monthly payments.  Wrong
    tactic, you should never mention you want to lease, negotiate a bottom
    line price and then mention you want a lease deal off of that price,
    otherwise you'll be paying sticker.  Also, if you lease always get
    "gap" insurance.  This protects you if the car is stolen or destroyed
    in an accident from continuing to may payments.  Also, finance the
    taxes, don't pay them upfront.  Reasoning is the same as for the gap
    insurance - if the car gets stolen the state won't refund the taxes to
    you.
    
    Dealers make better profits on used cars.  Because you see it you want
    it, you can't go to another dealer for the same exact car anylonger.  A
    good portion of used cars on new car lots are trade-ins that they
    didn't pay too much money for initially.
    
    Dat's all folks!
    
    Regards,
    
    Fredda

whether i end up with a new car or a used car as my next vehicle, i absolutely
dread the thought of going thru the process of buying one and bickering over
the price

that's one of the reasons why i'm still holding on to my Datsun - it's an
awful lot easier for me to do nothing then to replace it

- rich

Congrats jamie on your new car purchase!

Buying new with a great warranty and a plan to take good care of it is a 
great strategy!

Then again, buying clunkers gives you a good excuse to get an afternoon off 
work, like today, when my water pump gave out.  :-)

I don't think I ever mentioned in hear that I replaced my '84 ex cop car 
with an '83 wagoneer 4wd last fall. It was a great move given the winter 
we're having! Our daycare provider _hates_ it when we show up and everyone 
else has stayed home.  :-) fwiw, I sold the cruiser for $300 after buying 
it for $1800 and putting over 60K miles on it. The Wagoneer cost $1200.

re                <<< Note 53.298 by TOOK::PECKAR "sleep tight" >>>
                            -< I (heart) my Woody >-

>Then again, buying clunkers gives you a good excuse to get an afternoon off 
>work, like today, when my water pump gave out.  :-)

I have a spare H20 pump for a chevy small block if ya want it mon!  i bought
it on speculation, oh, about 5 yrs ago, and never used it.  my small block
chevy h20 pump in my old z28 just never died like every other chevy small
block h20 pump..  150k+ _hahd_ miles!


re: rich


buy used mon.  you save tons.  i paid 5.5k for my 'stang;  a high price i
thought.  i've had it for almost 2 yrs.  did the front brakes, the pass-side
caliper (total brake job: $45 incl. the caliper, which took 15 mins to put in).
other then that, change oil, put gas in.   very dependable and it was used 
(1986)...

    lost one today...I had a 78 Nissan F-10, don't laugh. I've had this car
    for almost 10 years, it got 30 MPG always, passed emissions
    and has over 100$ in deadstickers on it. The syncros are gone in 
    every gear so I'm the only one that can drive it. Had to put a new
    ignition switch in it several years ago when I shoved my truck key into the
    original ignition whilst on a binge. New tires. Part of the rear
    suspension is rusted through and a new part is 250$, used part plus labor
    about the same. So I told 'em to shoot the &^%$&(&*^&%% and put it out
    of it's misary. I'd part it out, but no one owns F-10s anymore, I've
    been told that even the alternator is specifically for f-10s and won't
    go into another datsun/Nissan. I'm gonna miss this little piece o
    sh*t....it's an eyesore, but one that's recognized all over town. 

sigh, one less datsun on the road

still holding onto my '81 210...

- rich

sad day...  all those stickahs, sigh....  oh yeah, the car probably holds some
sentimental value too... ;^)


glennnn_who needs to get another commuter beater-mobile too...

beams, to ya, rfb! Have a b&t at becketts and drown yer grief!

a moment of silence ................................

i finally made the big step, time to move on from my beloved datsun.

i'm now the proud owner of a (slightly less used) civic!

- rich

p.s. anyone wanna buy a datsun?

re:    <<< Note 53.305 by ROCK::FROMM "This space intentionally left blank." >>>

> i'm now the proud owner of a (slightly less used) civic!

Congrats!  Is that the $4K car you were telling me about?

Welcome to the Honda Civic(tm) club!

adam

>Congrats!  Is that the $4K car you were telling me about?

i think at the time i was telling you about it they were still asking $5K,
and i said i didn't want to pay any more than $4,500.

they originally asked $5,300, and i got it for $4,200.  i think i got a pretty
good deal.

i have become somewhat attached to my datsun, though...  (well, i guess not
THAT attached)

- rich

    
    Congratulations Rich!
    
    Now we have something better for passing those damn buses on the 
    Vermont backroads!
    ;-)

    
    yes congrats Rich!
    
    For the sounds of your datsun I didn't picture much at all
    being attached to it!  ;-)  ;-)  
    
    MJ

>    For the sounds of your datsun I didn't picture much at all
>    being attached to it!  ;-)  ;-)  
 
it does look like crap from the outside (so what if the body panels are
gradually disappearing, they're optional, right?), but it actually runs
surprisingly well for a car that looks as bad as it does

- rich

    
    
    Hey Rich-
    
     Is it *STILL* running???  ;-)
    
    Steve-O

>     Is it *STILL* running???  ;-)

oh yeah, i forgot about THAT !!!

nah, i only kept it running for about 48 hours, then i got around to bringing
it into the shop for a new starter.

but now i have a standard, so if that happens in the future, all i'll have to
do is park it on a hill.  (why can i see a situation where i'd keep doing that
for about 6 months - after all, i did go for about that long with my datsun
where i had to get into the car using the passenger side, until i got off
my lazy butt and fixed the driver door)

- rich

i have a 6-pack bet that says he won't get $500.00 for that P.O.S.

:-)

I say <$450!!! :-)

- jeff

    
    I got some loose change in me pocket! ;-)

    
    >p.s. anyone wanna buy a datsun?
    
    I've seen some areas of the NH/VT back country that use Datsuns for 
    planters :-) 
    
    

>    I've seen some areas of the NH/VT back country that use Datsuns for 
>    planters :-) 
    
it's also been suggested that we use it to roast a pig :^)

- rich

    I'm usually not this emotional about things, but since joining
    DC's  Sensitive New Age Guy Support Group i figured i'd share it with 
    you all.......
    
    
    the  Great Salvage Yard in the sky claims another stickered, rusted
    smashed in bumper, money pit tour machine......
    
    Lesh, my 1985 Plymouth Horizon, named after the "LESH IS MORE" and 
    "THE PHIL ZONE" bumper stickers that adorned it at different times
    in its life, has been laid to rest.....147,000 miles, a new exhaust,
    clutch, brakes, radiator, and engine (taken from a Dodge Kcar donor)
    later, the head gasket is blown and rather than dump $500 bucks into
    it i will pass through that rite of passage and finance a USED car
    through a dealer.....the shows i was able to go to in that car will
    be etched in my mind forever...As much as i ragged on it, i bought
    it for only $500 with 70,000 miles on it so idoesn't owe me anything..
    After i test drove that '92 Jetta though, i suddenly accepted my new
    found love for a car that wouldn't overheat going to the corner store,
    had heat in the winter time and like Moses did with the Red Sea, i
    found could scare fellow commuters into pulling to the side of the road
    to let me pass by, the fear for their own personal safety overwhelming
    them.....As i finish this note, i shed a tear for that  health hazard.
    

>    After i test drove that '92 Jetta though

aw come on, are you SURE you don't want an '81 datsun? ;^)

- rich

    
    RE: .318 and .319
    
    I thought that Datsun was destined to become a pig roaster ... or did
    you decide it was too drafty and woulnd't hold the heat ??  :-) 
    
    

    
    Sorry to hear about your vehicle mon.....
    
    but....
    
    from my experience - OLD PLYMOUTH'S SUCK!

> from my experience - OLD PLYMOUTH'S SUCK!

When I was just a eeeny-weeeny kid, my folks had a late 60's or early 70's
Plymouth Satellite Sebring.   Beige, V8, 2-door coupe kinda like the one
Starsky and Hutch had... only without the red paint with the big white stripe.
AWESOME MUSCLE CAR!!!  That thing lasted 100k miles before they sold it and
then it went another 120k.

When they sold it they bought a 1976 Dodge Aspen Wagon (the one with the
almost but not quite entirely unlike wood-grain side panelling).  This car was
the impetus for the Federal Lemon Law!  :-)

Old Plymothballs and Crustlers *DO* suck, but REALLY OLD ones are okay.

- jeff

    one thing I've learned...never become TOO attached to a car...course
    the same goes for kids and dogs.....%^)
    
    rfb_still attached to his Nissan, even though it's ready for the
    crusher

    My old Nissan went to the crusher several months ago and I've been
    drivin my Big Green Truck to work, around town and back-n-forth to the
    mountains since. Really puttin some wear and tear on an old 1970 3/4ton
    4x4 with a Rodchester QuadraSUCK carb. So, last Friday I bought a 1978
    2 wheel drive Toyota P/U. witha small camper shell as my new "around-d-town"
    vehicle. It has zero ground clearance compared to my Scout, CHevy P.U.
    or even Patty's piece-o-sh*t Ford Donky, so the kids have already named it
    "the lowrider" (Shades of Cheech and Chong!! "Low--ride--a, ridin real
    looowwoooww..") Already havea  handfull of left-over-from-d-show
    bumperstickers to attach, which should keep the local gang-wannabes from
    mistaking it as a "gang car" and smashin the windows out.
    
    rfb

well, i'm gonna try hard and sell my mustang gt.  i put an ad in the want
ad for probably next week.  now, this doesn't mean i'm gonna sell it! i have
a problem with selling cars... one time i was trying to sell my Z28 and
i had a guy come and look at it.  i decided that i wasn't into selling it
so i told all the thigns that were screwed up with it.  then, everyone else
who called i said "i'm not selling!"  anyways, being a happy home owner and
a DIY kinda guy, a truck is more suitable.  one with a plow is my desire, since
we have a killer driveway and a narrow dirt road.....

so, anyone want a fast cah????

    rfb
    gang wannabee's????/ what kinda war zone you live in???
    
    
    and as for stickering it to distinguish it from a gang car,
    you are only asking for trouble.....you know those small roving gangs
    of deadheads might do a drive by petchouli-ing of it....  :^0
    peace 
    chris

    howdy chris
    
    our hood is one of mixed ethnicy and class. As in most older
    neighborhoods in the Southwest, there's a mix of black, white and
    chicano blood. We live in a good hood, but there's always the little
    kids that "wannabe"...when we were kids it was wannabe a hippie,
    generations before wannabe jocks or rednecks, some of this current younger
    generation (and I mean younger than youse young gen X'ers here in
    GRATEFUL) wannabe "gangstas". They "relate" to each other by doing
    damage to "rival" wannabe material possessions, be they bikes or cars.
    Here's an example...our daughter had a friend staying with us most of
    the summer. She drove an old volkswagen fastback, with some stickers
    relating to alternative bands on it. One nite her windshild was broken
    out as well as the drivers side window. Her car was parked so close to
    my P.U. with dead stickers all over it that I don't see how they
    missed breaking out my rear camper window while rearing back to bust
    out her windshield!! Nothing was stolen from any of the cars on the
    street including the one broken into. My first reaction was "Someone
    doesn't like Amber!" But the kids insist that no, the car LOOKS like a
    gang car and that's why it was attacked, while all my 4x4's look like
    pieces of sh*t and are covered with dead stickers...which no
    self-respecting gang member would ever put on their car! 
    
    moral of the story...the more dead stickers in Colo the better!! 
    your milage may vary in other states.....so I'm stickerin the low-rider
    as soon as possible!!!
    
    rfb

So who drives the white sedan with the dancing skeleton bumper sticker
thats in the Walnut Street (Maynard) lot this AM?  Ain't never seen
that car in this lot before!

    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Idle rambleing here about cars, skip if not interested
    
    so, as some of you know I own 5 piece o sh*t cars..and it never
    fails, as one goes down, soon the others follow. My big green truck
    needs front drums, Chevy has stopped making them for that year truck
    (70) and I can't find any anywhere in bone yards. I've even had a
    mechanic friend call all over the nation both to bone yards and after
    market types, no luck. My Toyota truck needs a clutch slave and brakes,
    my Scout has been parked until I can afford a steering box or can find
    someone that rebuilds them, my wifes Bronco II needs a water pump. I
    borrowed my daughters Subaru for work this morning and she informs me
    she hit a curb couple of months ago and it needs an alignment. I drive
    it to work and realize there's more damage than she thinks..steering
    gear gone, both tyerods bent and both front tires shot. I'm a
    quasi-mechanic, which means I usually screw up more than fix, so I
    don't tackle big jobs...so I'm looking at another 500-600$ junker
    tomorrow, a Subaru..I'll use Tiffany's as a parts car...sigh
    
    and you should see my insurance bill!!
    
    rfb

Hey RFB, Have you looked into swapping out the steering knuckle on the 70 with 
something a little later that had disk brakes? I always had a lot of luck 
mixing and matching various GM parts and my chevelle was quite a hybrid. 
Not that I want to do this work, but I thought it would be a potential 
solution worth looking at.
	As for the Donky, if it's got the v6, the water pump isn't difficult, 
but the one for my ranger goes for like 70 bucks. That was a bit of a shock, 
more so the second time I replaced it. 


	How does that Subaru drive???
Geoff

	hang in there RFB!

	maybe you should sell of most of your fleet and upgrade.
	ah, cah work... knock on wood, i have not had much to do
	lately (no, you can't drop your car off at the JC garage!)

    Geoff -- the disk front end option has been discussed. Unfortunately
    my friend that does most of my GM work is moving to Oregon. so right
    now I'm jus gonna slap some shoes on the slightly worn drums. 
    The Donky water pump is 90 bucks!!!!! My daughters Subaru drives fine
    going straight down the road, but try and make a turn and you'd better
    be goin very slow...dangerous to say the least. 
    
    JC  - I have too many uses for too many cars to sell 'em all and
    upgrade...I'd just end up upgradeing to another 4-5 cars. I need a 3/4
    ton 4x4 truck for wood and hunting, I need my scout for serious 4x4, my
    plan is to park it at Tumbledown so I'd always have a serious 4x4
    there. I need my toyota truck or something similar for work and the 
    gas mileage in the city and lite duty hauling (dogs, cases of beer, etc). 
    My wife needs her Donky to get to work and do the domestic thing, and 
    my oldest needs her car to get to work and school. Next my youngest will 
    need a car! She's already driven the 4x4's above treeline, where's 
    there's no trees to hit %^)
    rfb

re                      <<< Note 53.332 by CXDOCS::BARNES >>>

>    JC  - I have too many uses for too many cars to sell 'em all and
>    upgrade...I'd just end up upgradeing to another 4-5 cars. I need a 3/4
>    ton 4x4 truck for wood and hunting, I need my scout for serious 4x4, my
>    plan is to park it at Tumbledown so I'd always have a serious 4x4


get a Ford F250!
that'll solve all your problems.
360 V8.
big, etc...

:-)

an F250 is actually what i wanna get this spring. i/m gonna dump my
mustang gt and finally get off the fast cah theme into a truck
more suitable for going to home depot, the dump,etc,etc,etc...
used of course.
probably 5-6 yrs old, depending on price.

    had a nice F250, 360 -v8...but it wasn't 4 wheel drive..my heavy chevy
    _IS_ 4x4, 350 V8 with a rodchester quad-dra-suck 4 barrel carb and
    SHOULD have breaks this week. 
    
    ever try 4 wheelin with a long box truck??? some of those trees get in
    the way, that's why I have a dent in my quarter panel on my chevy and
    that's why I want to keep the shitbox scout runnin...it bounces off
    trees better. 
    
    I bought another old Subaru this weekend...
    
    rfb

    I have this thing about Fords, Yah know I bought one knew almost 7
    years ago. Next time I think I'll get a Chevy, if it isn't more
    reliable at least parts aren't model, year, month, wheelbase, color 
    specific. The Ranger's getting to be not so bad considering it has
    135K miles on it now. But it had more problems 2 & 3 years ago. 
    	Fords look really nice and after a very objective shopping trip
    I knew it was the truck I wanted. But I really don't think I'm going to
    buy a Ford again. 
    
    Geoff

    one thing about chevy trucks that I DO NOT LIKE is that the damn
    distributer is behind the engine, up against the firewall. I can climb
    my scrawney ass into the engine compartment ok, but I'm forever burning
    my arms reaching for the dist....when I do work on my trucks...i hate
    working on trucks/cars, but am constantly doing it. 
    
    rfb

    If the placement of the distributer is your only complaint about 
    Chevy trucks, that is a better endorsment than I can give to Ford. 
    Does anyone have a clue about how to disconnect the hydrolic clutch on
    a Ford (Ranger, '88, 125"WB, Feb., Blue, Dark, 4 wheel drive,
    Mitsubishi transmission, Borg Warner transfer case; to be specific).
    Not that I need to know any longer, well for the time being, but I
    never figured it out.
    
    I hope to never need to again
    Geoff  

>    I bought another old Subaru this weekend...

so, rfb, just how many motorized vehicles have you purchased in your lifetime?

- rich

    about 14 rich, give or take a couple AND if my memory serves me
    correctly (which I doubt)...
    
    rfb

I will never ever ever ever ever ever buy another Ford product.  They break 
constantly and as Geoff said the parts required change weekly.

I love my GMC extended cab longbed 4X4.  I bought is pre dented so I don't 
have to worry so much about the trees.  Put a couple new scrapes on old 
dents but only one new dent:-).  The engine compartment is big enough for 
even me to crawl into and take a nap:-) and there is enough space for me to 
get my hands in to work on it (Not even remotely possible on any ford 
product I've seen).  I do agree with RFB about the placement of the 
distributer, but I can live with that.

Geoff

    
    
    Randy  
    
    Rich asked how many cars you bought in your life time not the past
    year!!!
    
     Divide Dave
    

    
    
    JC
    
     Good idea on buying a 3/4 ton FORD..
    
     I have an 89 3/4 ton FORD with a 460 in it, use it for fishing,camping
    hunting throw the camper on it and hook up the motorcycle trailer with
    2 full size Harleys and go down the road 70 mph, hills don't slow it
    down at all. Only thing that does slow it down are gas stations, but I
    didn't buy it for good ga mileage anyway!

I have not ruled out a Chev product yet.  i need to take a closer look at
cost and what i get for it.  and, i'll probably ask some people what their
opinions are in CARBUFFS.

as for ford vs. chev.

i bought my '86 GT 2.5 yrs ago or so and, knock on wood, it has been
so dependable that i'm getting rusty with car repair!!  i'm even volunteering
to help friends do timing belts, that's how starved i am! :-)  my GT looks
like an easy beast to work on.  the engine compartment has everything 
very well labeled, much better than the Z28 i had...  BUT... i haven't hadda
do any major work - just a left brake caliper and 1 exhaust pipe. not a
biggie.  and, the nova also runs like a top.  106k... i think the engine
has hit its prime and will go to 200k.

i'm definitley more familar with Chev than ford, so that makes a good
arg for Chev.  but, can i find a truck i like?  i want a V8, 5 liter
min, 5.8 liter (360) max.  5 spd std.  4 wd.  1/2 - 3/4 ton, most likely
3/4 ton.  a truck that has never plowed also.  the more heavy duty crap
i can get on the truck, the better, imo, 'cuz it'll last that much longer.

    
    JC
    
     On the late model Fords I do belive that the 360 is history, you'll
    have to choice bewteen the 351 or 460......
    
     Good choice going with heavy duty everything though!!!!!
    
     Best of luck in your search, watch out for rust on the wheel well's,
    check for dirt up under the lip of well, they tend to rust from the
    inside out!!!1
    
     Divide Dave, who spends big bucks at the cars wash after every 4
    wheeling trip.
    

re     <<< Note 53.344 by BSS::DSMITH "A Harley, & the Dead the good life" >>>

>     On the late model Fords I do belive that the 360 is history, you'll
>    have to choice bewteen the 351 or 460......

the 460 is probably more engine than i need, really.
351 should be enough!  is your 460 fuel injected or carb??
do you have an auto or manual trans???
    
>     Good choice going with heavy duty everything though!!!!!
 
yup... buy it once, buy it right, and it'll last a looooooong while.

    
    
    The 460 is fuel injected and I have the 5 speed mauual...
    
     I haven't found a spot I can't go yet, the extra low end power off
    road is one of the reasons I like this truck so much, but then again I
    don't drive it every day, some times the truck will sit for 2weeks
    without being firedup.
    
    
     Divide Dave

    My car needs to have the transmission replaced and a clutch assembly.
    It is at Aamco right now.
    
    A bearing in the case has gone bad, and one of the sleeves has welded
    to the shaft.  As a result, Aamco cannot open the transmission up.  So I 
    asked if I could just get the clutch assembly replaced and drive it until 
    the transmission dies.  Can't do that because of the extremes they went 
    through to try opening it up.  They will not be able to get the 
    transmission functional for me to drive it away. I have no choice but
    to have a rebuilt tranny put in tomorrow.
    
        Rebuilt trans:      $1600.00
        Clutch Assembly:    $300.00
        Shipping:           $25.00
        Tax:                $75.00
                           ==========
        Total cost:         ~$2000.00
    
        :-/  yowwwwww...........
    

	Probably too late but a used tranny from a junk yard might be
	a LOT cheaper.  I paid $300 for one several years ago and got
	well over 100K on it. 

	/Ken

    1600 sounds like an awefuly expensive transmission. Although if you
    drive a honda, I understand their parts prices are extreme. 
    
    	It cost me a thousand dollars to get ripped of by GMS that used to
    be in NOrthoboro and are now in Shrewsbury. Charged me the money, but
    never did the job. It cost me $900 something to have the transmission
    rebuilt buy Leominster transmission, who did the job right, quickly and
    I have no complaints. That's a mitsubishi transmission in a ford
    ranger. I did learn that you have a lot of rights in getting your car
    fixed, but I never took the crook to cort. I really should have, I had
    an undeniable case of being charged for repairs not done.  Call the
    attorney general's office of consumer affairs. I don't think it's legal
    for them to damage your car and force you to take their fix. 
    
    BUt if it's a Honda I understand the spark plug wires cost about 200
    bucks. 
    
    	Oh this is bringing back fumes of years ago, oooh I want to wring
    that guys neck.
    
    Geoff

>    BUt if it's a Honda I understand the spark plug wires cost about 200
>    bucks. 

Nah, maybe more like $50? at a good mail-order OEM Honda parts place like
Jackson Racing (I think thats their name).

Still, danielle, it sounds like they took a look at you and figured they
could make some $$$ off of you.  Get up, stand up for your rights!
Educate yourself - take your story ASAP to the ACCARS::CARBUFFS notefile.
The Honda note is note 130, Accord note is 133, tranny notes are:
   285  - Automatic Transmission Topic
   286  - Manual Transmission Note
   290 -  Ford Manual Transmissions
   291 -  Ford Automatic Transmissions
   292 -  GM Manual Transmissions
   293 -  GM Automatic Transmissions
   294 -  MoPar Manual Transmissions
   295 -  MoPar Automatic Transmissions
   296 -  Transmission Repair Shops

Josh

re        <<< Note 53.350 by QUOIN::BELKIN "one...3...5...7..8..9.10!" >>>
                           -< you're getting reamed >-

>Nah, maybe more like $50? at a good mail-order OEM Honda parts place like
>Jackson Racing (I think thats their name).

this trick is to avoid OEM pahts and buy third pahty pahts.  
i rarely buy OEM unless that is the _only_ choice.  you're
just setting yourself up for the big shaft buying OEM...

>Still, danielle, it sounds like they took a look at you and figured they
>could make some $$$ off of you.  Get up, stand up for your rights!
>Educate yourself - take your story ASAP to the ACCARS::CARBUFFS notefile.
>The Honda note is note 130, Accord note is 133, tranny notes are:

i agree danielle.  tell'em you don't wanna pay 1600 bucks and if they
have a problem, tell 'em you're gonna talk to the AG.  seems like a
friggin ripoff!  $2000 would buy you a reasonable cah.

                                     -< Carbuffs >-
    ===========================================================================
    Note 134.202                     CRX Note                    202 of 202
    BINKLY::DEMARSE "Enjoy being"                 83 lines   17-JAN-1995 16:46
                   -< suggestions?  Transmission/Aamco problem :-( >-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I placed this in another notesfile, but thought I'd try here as well:
        
    I have a 1989 Honda CRX HF (5 speed) with 99,000 miles on it.  For the past
    year or so, there has been a grinding noise coming from the transmission
    whenever my car is in neutral (or whenever the clutch is out).   When
    the clutch is pushed in, the noise goes away.  I have ignored it until now 
    because of financial situations.  
        
    The noise has been getting louder and I have a long commute to work, so
    I decided to get it fixed, better safe than sorry.
        
    I took the car to Aamco in Framingham at noon yesterday (Monday, 1/16).  
    From the free estimate, they determined that the problem was internal.  
    They said that the cheapest to fix it would be $550 (labor and replacing a 
    bearing) and the worst case scenario would be replacing the transmission 
    which would cost $1600.00.  They told me they wouldn't be able to tell the 
    extent of damage until they looked inside the tranny.  I left the car 
    there so they could take a look.
        
    Called them at 4:00 yesterday to see what they came up with.  Fred (the
    guy I have been dealing with) said that they have taken the transmission 
    out of the car but haven't looked inside it yet.        
        
    Called them this morning.  Fred said they haven't opened the tranny 
    yet,  would call me back when they did.
        
    Fred called me back at 1:00 today and said that a bearing in the case
    has gone bad, and one of the sleeves has welded to the shaft.  As a result,
    Aamco cannot open the transmission up to look inside.  He also said that I 
    need the clutch assembly replaced.  
        
    Their prices:
        
    	Rebuilt trans:      $1600.00
        Clutch Assembly:    $300.00
        Shipping:           $25.00
        Tax:                $75.00
                           ==========
        Total cost:         ~$2000.00
        
        
    I do not have the money to do this.  I asked if I could just get the 
    clutch assembly replaced, put the transmission back in, and drive it until 
    the transmission dies.  Fred told me that I cannot do that because of the 
    extremes they went through to try opening it up.  They will not be able to 
    get the transmission functional for me to drive it away.  (To me, this 
    means that they broke it trying to get inside of it).  He said the only
    solution was to have another transmission put in.
        
    Fred said they could get a tranny for me tomorrow and have the job done
    tomorrow night.  I reluctantly said ok, only because I felt I had no
    choice (MISTAKE)  
        
    The status at this point is, they are doing no work on it until tomorrow 
    morning when a rebuilt tranny arrives.  Meanwhile, the transmission
    is out of the car and definitely cannot go back into the car.
        
    I called Fred back approximately 2 hours later (3:30ish) and told him that 
    I do not want them to work on it tomorrow, to hold off on the work until I
    call him with a decision in the morning.  I explained to him that my
    car already has 100,000 miles on it and that I'm not sure it's worth
    putting $2000 into the car.  He became very defensive and told me that my 
    car would last me another 100,000 miles and it's retail value is    
    $4875, that the transmission job would pay itself off in a year, and 
    etc.  The coaxing didn't change my mind, so he stated, "Look, you have
    an undrivable car here, and nobody is going to pay you anything for
    it.  You already owe us $360 in labor and $50 shipping for the 
    transmission.  You might as well have the rebuilt put in tomorrow."  
        
    I don't know what to do, I am kicking myself because my car was driveable 
    and functional before I brought it to Aamco.  There was just a noise 
    coming from the transmission.  Now I have no car, I am renting one for
    the commute at $30/day, and I think Aamco is trying to rip me off.
    I feel my only choices are:
        
    1) 	To pay Aamco $400 and pay to have my car towed somewhere that might be 
       	able to do the job for less money (grrr....I don't like paying Aamco 
        $400 for making my car undrivable, especially when money is tight) 
        
    2) 	Have Aamco put a rebuilt tranny in and do a clutch adjustment for
        $2000.
        
    Any suggestions?  
    
    

    Thanks for the suggestions!
    
    re: JC
    
    >> i agree danielle.  tell'em you don't wanna pay 1600 bucks and if they
    >> have a problem, tell 'em you're gonna talk to the AG.  seems like a
    >> friggin ripoff!  $2000 would buy you a reasonable cah.
    
    Who is the AG?  I was thinking of calling both the Better Business Bureau
    and Consumer Affairs tomorrow morning...
    
    I agree, Josh, they probably took one look at me and decided they could 
    take me for a loop.  :(

    AG=Attorney General

re:             <<< Note 53.351 by BIODTL::JC "Green is the colour" >>>

>>Nah, maybe more like $50? at a good mail-order OEM Honda parts place like
>>Jackson Racing (I think thats their name).
>
>this trick is to avoid OEM pahts and buy third pahty pahts.  

Depends on the OEM and the 3rd party parts.  My old Nissan would run terribly
with anything except Nissan or Borg-Warner or Bosch spark plug wires.  The 
price and quality of all 3 were pretty much the same.  The only distributor
cap and rotor that would work right were from Nissan.

But for the $ubaru, everything from the dealer was ridiculously priced to
the extreme.

In general 3rd party is the way to go but you have to be real careful about
quality of the parts, especially electrical components.

/ken

          <<< Note 53.355 by MONTOR::HANNAN "Beyond description..." >>>

>In general 3rd party is the way to go but you have to be real careful about
>quality of the parts, especially electrical components.

but these days, the need to replace electrical parts is diminishing.
i do the plugs every 30k, and replace the wires every 80-100k, depending
on how the engine is running and what the wires look like.  i never
deal with new distributor caps, etc...  they're all wicked dependable
these days and very long lasting.  some cars, you don't need to change
the plugs for over 100k !

re              <<< Note 53.353 by BINKLY::DEMARSE "Enjoy being" >>>
                               -< thx everyonw >-

>    Who is the AG?  I was thinking of calling both the Better Business Bureau
>    and Consumer Affairs tomorrow morning...
 
i think you should be able to get a tranny for your car from a boneyard
for less than 1/2 that cost, and the boneyard tranny will work just fine.
open your yellow pages under "Cah Pahts - Used and rebuilt" and call a
couple of junkyards and ask 'em how much for a tranny.

Also danielle, Jarmo's in Maynard is probably a better place
than RIPOFFCO,er, Aamco for tranny work.  i needed work done
to the nova's automatic (2nd time ever in the shop in 7.5 yrs)
and Jarmo's in maynid did it for what i thought was a fair price.
they _fixed_ the tranny vs. replace... call them up too and
tell 'em your story.

Jake's Garage in Hudson seems a reputable place too.  He won't do any work
that's not necessary -- 'cause he's got plenty of work to do (he's very
popular).



- jeff

    I called the Aamco customer relations home office this morning.
    The woman on the phone stated she would be a mediator between the two
    parties.  She called Fred but never called me back.
    
    Fred called me at noon and asked why I didn't call him this morning.
    I told him that I don't have $2000 and I've been trying to think of a
    better solution.
    
    Fred told me that he has a friend that buys totalled cars from
    insurance companies.  His friend has a transmission from a 1990 CRX
    with 15,000 miles on it and 3 month warranty that he would sell for
    $975.00.
    
    Fred can put this transmission in and do the clutch assembly for $1525.
    This is ~$400-$450 less than having the rebuilt transmission put in.
    The only difference is, the rebuilt has a 1 year warranty, the used
    transmission has a 3 month warranty.
    
    I decided to have him put the used transmission in it tomorrow and do
    the clutch assembly, and pay $1525....I just want to get this whole ordeal 
    over with.
    
    BTW, I also called around to different mechanics in the Framingham area and
    $1500-$1600 seemed to be the going rate for the job performed...that is 
    one reason why I decided to get it done at Aamco tomorrow.  I just want
    my car back.... 

>   BTW, I also called around to different mechanics in the Framingham area and
    $1500-$1600 seemed to be the going rate for the job performed...that is 

well, at least "you did your homework" on this.

Call Jay at J&S Transmission in Shrewsbury

Geoff

danielle, i would not worry much about the 3mo warrenty, i'd worry more
about someone telling you it was 15k miles on it when in reality, it was
115k ("ooops, i forgot the "1")



i followed the discussion in carbuffs.  it does pay to listen to your
car and when it groans, have it taken care of asap vs. waiting...

at least you saved yourself 25%

    I have my car back :-)
    
    Picked it up Saturday morning....The total came to be just under $1700.  
    Aamco asked me to return in 10 days for a check-up...
    
    The transmission sounds good, except the gears are funny.  I have to
    shift a lot earlier now (I am in 4th gear at 35 mph).  When I shift to
    5th gear, it's fine until I get to 55.  Then I feel like I have to
    shift to a 6th gear (It feels like I'm in 4th gear when actually I'm in
    5th)... The idiot light goes on as well (telling me to shift). 
    
    I'm going to wait another week for the transmission to settle in, and
    see if the problem still exists.  Hopefully everything will be ok....
    
    :), danielle

Does your car gave a tachometer?  and if it does, do you know how to use/
interpret it?  "Sounds funny" needs to be a little more specific if you
please.. are you really saying the actual gear ratios are now different
and the engine is turning higher RPMs when in 5th gear at 55 MPH, then before?

Josh

>  Then I feel like I have to
>    shift to a 6th gear (It feels like I'm in 4th gear when actually I'm in
>    5th)

I get that feeling sometimes too, but nothing in my car has changed.  I'll
be driving along fine on the highway, and some mad demon makes me push
in the clutch reach out and try to shift into hyperdrive.  And then I'll
remember, "silly me, I don't have any more gears to go.  What was I thinking!!!??"

;-)
PeterT

    Josh-
    
    	What I meant by my gears being funny is just that I have to shift a
    lot earlier than I am used to, and it also feels like I need a 6th
    gear when I am on the highway.
    
    	I haven't checked the tachometer, but I will after work. 
    
    >> are you really saying the actual gear ratios are now different and the 
    >> engine is turning higher RPMs when in 5th gear at 55 MPH, then before?
    
    yes...
    
    Somebody has suggested to me that maybe they put an SI transmission in my 
    car, which has a different gear ratio.  There are 3 models of the Honda 
    Civic CRX:  CRX HF, CRX, and CRX SI.  My car is an HF, which is the fuel 
    economy model of the Honda CRX, which gets me ~40-45 miles per gallon. 
    The SI is the sports model.
    
    :), d

    I just called a Honda Automobile service department and spoke with them
    concerning the situation.
    
    What they said:
    ===============
    
    The CRX HF is a High-Fuel economy car.  It was a wide ratio
    transmission, which is smaller, lighter, and has smaller shafts.  It is
    designed for fuel economy, not speed.
    
    The CRX is a high-power automobile, with a close ratio transmission.
    
    He didn't have the gear ratios on hand, but off the top of his head
    the CRX could be considered 5:1,4:1,3:1, and etc. and the HF could
    be considered 7:1, 6.2:1, 4.8:1, and etc.
    
    The service manager said that the CRX HF is so different from a CRX that
    it shouldn't even be considered a CRX...he said that the newly installed
    transmission is definitely not the right one for the car.
    
    He advised me to call Aamco and tell them this is unacceptable, only a
    CRX HF transmission should be installed into the car.  
    
    I am not looking forward to this phone call :-( 

Sixth gear?  Is this a car or a motorcycle? ;-)

re         <<< Note 53.369 by LASSIE::TRAMP::GRADY "Stop The Violins." >>>

>Sixth gear?  Is this a car or a motorcycle? ;-)


actually, the ZR1 corvette as a six-speed as do some
exotic sports cars (ferrari) to meet EPA fuel econ. specs.



re: danielle

definiely sounds like the wrong tranny!

    nice little pull out section in the Globe today on car care...
    inside there is an article on a bus salvage yard/restorer in Kingston
    MA
    "Enthusiasts truckin' their way to Bill Cline's VW Bus Heaven"
    ...."For some, the buses conjure up images of tie-dyed hippies or
    smoked out Deadheads"
    HEY!!! I RESEMBLE THAT REMARK!!!!
    

    Last night we lost our 1987 Toyota Van (5 speed, 4Wheel drive)
    with 135K miles on it to a fire, looks electrical. Many good
    road trips took place in this vechile, now for the insurance
    hassle.....

	bummer. good luck with the insurance, mon.

Nova, at 114.7k hahd miles, is in the sick room!

cooling problems.
brake problems.

took it to the whites this past w-end and it wasn't easy on it.
so, i have the new brake pahts.
gettin' a recore rad today.

hopefully, after this work, it'll be back for the winter...

My '86 Nova, now full of holes, turned 200K a few weeks ago.  I think I got
my money's worth, eh?

	dave

    
    My 87 nova has 115K on it now.  Love the little car. 33 mpg. runs like
    a top.
    
    	

    
    1988 Volkswagon Golf 168,000 miles on it......I'll be replacing it
    very soon, but it is still going.  I'm the lone owner.....
    
    Hogan

I have a 86 Honda Accord w/ 220K+  on it...it's not faring well as of late
though....needs work now.  Am going to look for a truck.  We are the original
owners as well.  

I actually hated cars until we got this one...
bob

    
    My 89 Nissan 240SX has 150K and the total $$$ value of work the car has
    needed since I bought it in 1990 (not including oil changes) is around
    $600.   I love my car!

re   <<< Note 53.375 by NECSC::LEVY "Half-Step Mississippi Uptown Toodleoo" >>>
                               -< Nova - >200K >-

>My '86 Nova, now full of holes, turned 200K a few weeks ago.  I think I got
>my money's worth, eh?


nah, you gotta drive that thing for another 200k before you
get your $$ worth mon!

:-)


re: mnelson

33 mpg???  stick or juice drive???  our's is a juice drive and i never
get much over 30... mostly high 20s... but, i gotta admit, the pedal
spends a lot of time on the floor

got it fixed!
got a rad yest. and brakes.  put 'em in after workin' out last
night... easy job. very easy.
ordered a 'generic' rad, but they screwedit up and i got a
mint one for 91 bucks...

    ::tdavies....glad no one was hurt...scary stuff....
    rfb

    Yea... all are well, great job by quick thinking wife, take
    pocketbook, keys, and RUN... now to deal with the insurance company
    

    My 89 CRX has 116K on it, and still gets 40-50 MPG (really!).
    
    I love my little car because it's great on gas and extremely easy to
    park in Boston.  As of last month, I have the car paid off and it's
    all mine!
    
    Unfortunately, I have already put $2000 into it this year. 
    (transmission B.S., I will never go to another Aamco again).
    
    /danielle

>    Unfortunately, I have already put $2000 into it this year. 
>    (transmission B.S., I will never go to another Aamco again).


Hmmm, I seem to remember that tale!  I just turned over 170K yesterday
in my Honda Civic sedan.  It's an '89 we got used in '91 with a tad
under 50K on it at that point.  Gets between 30 and 40 MPG, which I can't
complain about.  But I never really wanted it.  I just wanted to upgrade
to the 4 wheel drive Civic wagon, but they stopped making them the
year before, and we couldn't find one cruising the lots (which probably
speaks well for them.)  Heck, if this one makes it through another winter,
we'll be satisfied, but my wife has been suggesting various cars I should
check out if'n this one fails soon.

PeterT
 

i'm going to start looking for another '79-'81 Z28.
just loved that old black camaro i had...so, i gotta
get me another one....anyone wanna buy a nice '86
mustang GT ???

    question for the backyard mechanics of the world
    if my starter is fried , it iwll not emit any heat what so ever..
    as it stands the piece is stone cold after i run the car and
    thru process of elimination (i.e. battery, alternator) this is
    my final alternative for a reason that explains the car starting so 
    ruff and slow

re:   <<< Note 53.387 by CSLALL::LEBLANC_C "All good things in all good time" >>>

>    if my starter is fried , it iwll not emit any heat what so ever..

If your starter is fried it usually makes clicking sounds, where a
gear that's supposed to engage doesn't, and it just spins.  I don't know
about heat and starters though...

Rough starting could be lots of things.   What kind of oil are you using ?
If you're using 20/50W that gets really thick in cool weather, so change to
10/30.   Sounds wierd but I learned this the hard way when using 20/50W
year round in my old Rabbit.

When's the last time you changed the spark plugs, distributor cap, and
rotor ?   Spark plug wires ?

/Ken

    plugs are bosch platinums
    replaced about 6 months ago
    tuned it up, change th oil myself every 2k miles and put 10w30 last
    time
    all plugs are firing
    rotor cap may have to look at
    i understand that AC puts a heavy strain on a VW engine because of the 
    way it engages and drains power
    
    couple that witha stereo and a history of electrical problems 
    characteristic of VW and you got...???

    I hope your starter is cold after then engine's been running a while...
    
    It's supposed to disengage immediately after starting the car. If it
    doesn't it acts like a generator and overpowers your car's electrical
    system. If the car has an ampmeter, check it immediately after
    starting. If it's pegged right, you're in trouble - starter's not
    disengaging.
    
    Doubt this helps...
    Jim

    Oh, yeah, since you mentioned A/C, make sure it's off when you start
    the car. If it's the only accessory on that belt, consider
    disconnecting it for 9 months out of the year. Save gas.

    
    Park it on top of a hill and get a running start and pop the clutch,
    hard part is finding a hill to park it on everytime you go somewhere!
    
    
       . .
        ,
      \___/
    
     Divide Dave

    Divide
    how the hell you think i got Dave Benjamin/myself and MJ's friend    
    Christine home from Albany summer tour?
    Deane'o and Jay jolls pushing from behind!!!!
           :^)
    chris_worst_luck_with_cars_and_women

    
    
    Chris  at least you had someone to push! My luck is I would be alone at
    the bottom of the hill with my 3/4 ton pickup with the camper on it in
    the middle of the night with the nearest phone 20 miles away...
    
    Divide Dave

    ...and no beer.

re   <<< Note 53.389 by CSLALL::LEBLANC_C "All good things in all good time" >>>
                            -< Anything else maybe >-

>    plugs are bosch platinums
>    replaced about 6 months ago
>    tuned it up, change th oil myself every 2k miles and put 10w30 last

2k is wasteful, imo.
5k is fine.  my camaro made 150k VERY HARD miles on 5k changes.
nova's got 115.5k with no probs.  5k changes.
10w30 is a little light for a 4-banger, imo.  i'd do 20-50 in summer 10-40
winter.
    
>    couple that witha stereo and a history of electrical problems 
>    characteristic of VW and you got...???
						
					... a piece of shit!
	ha!


so RageMon, didya get your cah fixed??????????///

re:    <<< Note 53.396 by ZENDIA::FERGUSON "The Janitor of coding returns!" >>>

> 5k is fine.  my camaro made 150k VERY HARD miles on 5k changes.

Whew!  That's been my schedule because it seems I rack up 2K on the highway
so fast, and the oil still looks OK.   Maybe 2K is better for harder stop'n'go
driving...

>10w30 is a little light for a 4-banger, imo.  i'd do 20-50 in summer 10-40
>winter.

What's the deal with 10-40 ?   I used to do 10-40 in the winter, but a
mechanic friend said research showed that 10-30 worked better for some
reason (like when the motor starts up 10-30 circulates better or something).
Since then I haven't used 10-40 at all.

/Ken

2K? 5K?  You mean somebody pays you lots of money to change your oil?


You're supposed to change the oil?

I'm so confused....


PeterT

re          <<< Note 53.397 by AWECIM::HANNAN "Beyond description..." >>>

>What's the deal with 10-40 ?   I used to do 10-40 in the winter, but a
>mechanic friend said research showed that 10-30 worked better for some
>reason (like when the motor starts up 10-30 circulates better or something).
>Since then I haven't used 10-40 at all.


that would make sense.  in the winter, when oil gets cold, it
thickens.  so, when you fire up your cah, that think oil doesn't
circulate very well until it gets hotter.  but, too light oil
doesn't lubricate well.  so, 6 one way, 1/2 dozen the other.
4-bangers, since they tend to Rev more than V8s or even 6 bangers,
need heavier oil.  my V8 in my mustang revs at 2000 RPM in 5th
gear at a whopping 78 MPH!  at 3000 RPM in 5th, you're at 117 MPH.

Anyone interested in a set of 4 snow tires, mounted & ballanced on rims, 
suitable for 87-89 vintage Accords and Integras?   I have posted notes in 
CARBUFFS (which I can't get into lately) and CLASSIFIED_ADs.

The tires are Nokia Hakkapellita NR-10 snow tires (a Finnish brand, very
highly regard by the CARBUFFs community and myself) size 175/70 R14,
on 14" steel rims.  They have 11K miles on them, ran two seasons, 1/4" of
tread.  The brand new Nokia NR10's on my Saab have 3/8" of tread, so the
old Accord snows have 2/3 of original tread left.

Price (reduced from my notes in CARBUFFS and CLASSIFIED_ADs) is $175 for
the set of all 4.  Now, just a set of used Accord rims from a junkyard will 
run you $100.  My deal is same as that, but you also get the 4 snows for 
an additional low low price of $75!  :-)

If you're driving an 87-89 vintage Accord or Integra, and you don't have
snow tires yet - you need these tires!

If you want em, can be picked up at Salem plant (NIO) or my place in Lowell.
However I'm heading down to NYC tomorrow mid-AM, returning 12/28 at 6 PM.
So's if you need 'em, its tonight at Lowell, tomorrow at Lowell, or next
week...

I gotta get these Accord snows outta my garage... don't do me much good anymore
since I got the Saab!

   - Josh

    
    from another conference...
    
             <<< SCAACT::APP$DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARBUFFS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< Carbuffs >-
================================================================================
Note 180.1356                        VW Note                        1356 of 1358
AIMTEC::STDBKR::Burden_d "Keep Cool with Coolidge"    8 lines  22-FEB-1996 10:51
                            -< Garcia & Bus poster >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VWoA is giving away free copies of a Jerry Garcia/VW Bus poster.  Call them at 
1-800-444-8987 to request a copy.  They'll ask for your name, address, where 
you heard about the 800 number (I got it off the VintagVW mailing list, but 
just said 'the internet') and what your daily driver is.

There is a 2-3 week backorder on the posters right now.

Dave
    

This AM in the NIO parking lot, a wagon with NH plate "DYLAN-".
Big box of tapes in front passenger footwell, 50-lb bag of rice in the back.
Anyone here?  

 -Josh

    50 lb bag of rice?

    gettin ready for that Dylan tour! that or Phish in Maine???  %^)
    
    rfb

    please

costco!



    <<< Note 53.462 by WMOIS::LEBLANCC "All good things in all good time" >>>
                                -< Uncle Ben! >-

    50 lb bag of rice?