Conference rdvax::grateful

From: cameron@argosy.UUCP (Cameron Spitzer)
Crossposted-To: misc.consumers
Subject: Kind #10 envelopes, mail order
Date: 15 Jan 91 19:11:29 GMT
 
 
 
Three folks have asked for more info on #10 envelopes
made from what I call "kind paper." 
Type 'n' now if you're not interested.
 
I've had good luck ordering tickets from GDTS with
envelopes made from paper made by a process designed
for minimum environmental impact.  "Conventional"
papermaking is unkind to the environment:
1.  Trees are grown with petrochemical fertilizers
and herbicides where there once was forest.  They are
cut for paper in ways which damage the soil and rivers.
2.  Tree pulp is yellow so powerful bleaches are used
to turn it the sparkly white we're used to.  The spent
bleach ends up in rivers, where some of it becomes 
chloroform, dioxins, and furans.
3.  Used paper goes to the landfill or incinerator
where it makes up something like half the urban waste
stream.
An excellent book on paper and the environment, _The
Greenpeace Guide to Paper_, can be obtained from
    Greenpeace Northwest
    4649 Sunnyside Avenue North
    Seattle, WA 98103
They might send it for free but I gave them a $5
"donation" for it.
 
"Kind paper" is made without bleach, from used paper.
It's a sort of greenish yellowish sandy color.
You've seen it if you've got mail from Greenpeace et al
in the last couple of years.  It costs more than
conventional paper because it's made in smaller batches.
(Big batches run on bigger, more economical machines.)
 
Here are three sources of kind #10 envelopes.
1.  Save Our ecoSystems, inc.
    407 Blair Blvd.
    Eugene, OR 97402
    (503)484-2679
SOS is run by a sweet lady named Barbara Kelley.
She'll send you a pack of 100 "Earthtone" #10s for $6.,
plus $2 for shipping and handling  (This is her "Dead-
Head Special" which I asked her to offer.  You could
decorate your order and say Hi for me!)  SOS is a
non-profit environmental organization.
 
2.  Eco Source
    9051 Mill Station Road, Bldg. # E
    Sebastapol, CA 95472
    (1-800)688-8345
This catalog store is similar to Seventh Generation,
but lower markup.  They'll sell you a box of 500 "kind"
#10s (their item 07-006) for $13.10 plus $4 shipping.
They also have an economical solar-powered battery
charger.
 
3.  Earth Care Paper, Inc.
    100 S. Baldwin
    Madison, WI 53703
    (608)277-2900
This catalog store has a large assortment of office
paper products, wrapping paper, and note cards.
A pack of 100 "Minimum Impact" #10s (their item 6120)
costs $6.00; shipping for this one item is free.
Their catalog has lots of good info on papermaking and
the environment.
 
I have no source today for kind 3 x 5 cards.  Anybody?
 
While I'm on the subject of mail-order, here are three
catalogs which may interest Dead Heads:
    Seventh Generation
    Colchester, VT 05446-1672
    (1-800)456-1177
Various household goods with reduced environmental
impact.  Cleaners, baby stuff, clothing, paper.
 
These two outfits *create* some of the Latin American
co-ops which produce those pretty woven goods some of us
prefer over tie-dye.  They control the operations to
ensure the workers make a decent wage and have control
over their workplace.  Why visit the parking lot
without a ticket when you can mail order from home!
    Pueblo to People
    1616 Montrose Boulevard
    Houston, TX 77006
    (1-800)843-5257
 
    Trade Wind
    P. O. Box 380
    Summertown, TN 38483
    (1-800)445-1991
 
All of the companies I've named here guarantee satisfaction
or your money back, subject to various reasonable 
conditions.  If I missed your favorite, drop me a line.
If I think there's interest, I'll post a summary.
See you in February!   :-) :-) :-)
 
 
Cameron Spitzer, Sunnyvale, California
cameron@maspar.com  or  uunet!decwrl!argosy!cameron
    

re:               <<< Note 96.1 by AD::VAUK "sleep in the stars" >>>
   
>Subject: Kind #10 envelopes, mail order
... 
>Three folks have asked for more info on #10 envelopes
>made from what I call "kind paper." 
    
    For a minute there, I thought he was going to say they were made 
    from hemp. :-)
    

....Dunno whether to stick this here or in the 

		"WAR IS FOR HOPELESS HEADS OF STATE" note....

<other fwds deleted by yours truly....>

Return-Path: decwrl::honet7!tanju
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 91 09:31:22 EST
From: decwrl::honet7!tanju (Tanju Cataltepe +1 201 949 2641)
To: ozveren@cuneyt.dec.com
Subject: NEWS

       LONDON (AP) _ If Iraq carries out its threat to blow up Kuwait's
oil fields, it would start an inferno creating a suffocating
1,000-mile pall of smoke, scientists told an international
conference.
       Other scientists also made dire predictions about fires, gases
and millions of gallons of oil pouring into the Persian Gulf. Their
comments came at the one-day conference Wednesday on the
environmental consequences of a gulf war.
       The conference was organized by Jordan and Britain's Green
Party, which believe a gulf war would create the world's worst
environmental disaster.
       The meeting was attended by scientists, environmental pressure
groups, British politicians and Middle East diplomats, including
the Iraqi ambassador.
       Abdullah Toukan, a nuclear physicist at the Massachusetts
Institute of Technology, said the blowing up of the Kuwaiti oil
fields would ignite an inferno, raise temperatures sharply and
advance global warming by 30 years.
       ``This particular combat area is literally sitting on about 10
percent of the world's oil reserves,'' said Toukan, who is also a
scientific adviser to Jordan's King Hussein.
       ``The amount of carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, sulphur dioxide
and nitrous oxide will be tremendous in the atmosphere,'' he said.
``You'll have global warming, human and animal health
deterioration. ... It will be a catastrophic war.''
       Iraq is believed to have mined the oil fields and has threatened
to blow them up if the international alliance ranged against it
uses force to end its 5-month-old occupation of Kuwait.
       Iraqi President Saddam Hussein first made the threat in Geneva
two months ago during a conference on climate.
       Since the invasion, Toukan has been researching the possible
effects of a fire in Kuwait's 1,000 oil wells.
       Toukan and several other scientists announced they will publish
an emergency assessment of the environmental threat.
       Professor Richard Scorer, a meteorologist at London's Imperial
College, said the destruction of the oil wells would spread smoke
across the globe.
       ``It could cover Baghdad, it could cover Bombay ... it would
probably get round the world in a month,'' Scorer told British
Broadcasting Corp. radio. ``It is certain that any country adjacent
to the north end of the Gulf would be at risk.''
       Scorer also said that ``fire storms'' _ similar to the
whirlwinds that followed the dropping of the atomic bomb on
Hiroshima in 1945 _ would hamper firefighting.
       Others warned that the smoke cloud could lead to the failure of
the monsoon rains in large parts of Asia.
       However, Basil Butler, former chief petroleum engineer with the
Kuwait Oil Company, argued that oil well fires, although ``a very
major problem'' could be contained.
       Iraqi ambassador Azmi al-Salihi said Iraq was ``aware of the
consequences. ``But you have to address the aggressors, those who
want war,'' he said. ``We want to avoid war and avoid
catastrophe.''
       AP-DS-01-03-91 1100EST<


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From: honet7!tanju (Tanju Cataltepe +1 201 949 2641)
Subject: NEWS
Apparently-To: ozveren@cuneyt.dec.com


AND IF your're still reading.....

<more deleted fwds....and I know most people here know this already...>

      All U.S. spending for research and development on energy efficiency
      for all of last year would finance U.S. forces in the Persian Gulf
      for less than 3 days.

        (President Bush is a former oil company executive.  Perhaps it
         should come as no surprise that his idea of an energy policy
         seems to revolve around drilling for oil in wild areas and
         giving more tax breaks to oil companies; both were proposed
         last fall, the latter inserted the last moment in October's
         budget agreement with Congress).

         Source: World Watch

    
>    For a minute there, I thought he was going to say they were made 
>    from hemp. :-)
    
Hah!  For a minute there I thought they were laced with LSD.  :-)

Related conferences:

	TOWNS::ENVIRONMENTAL_ISSUES
	CSSUK::GREEN

- Dave

<><><><><><><><>  T h e   V O G O N   N e w s   S e r v i c e  <><><><><><><><>

 Edition : 2244            Wednesday 23-Jan-1991            Circulation :  8571 



 Digital - 'Green Lights' program aimed at cutting electricity demand
	{Livewire, 22-Jan-91}
   Digital, along with 23 major U.S. companies, and the U.S. Environmental 
 Protection Agency (EPA) are working together to encourage U.S. industry to 
 install energy efficient lighting systems via the Green Lights Program.
   Formally announced by EPA Administrator William Reilly in mid-January, the 
 voluntary program's aim is to cut national electricity demand by 10% or more.
 It will provide examples of successfully implemented energy efficient 
 lighting programs, and through case studies and workshops distribute this 
 information to all U.S. industries.  
   Lighting accounts for one-fourth of America's national electricity use.  
 Lighting for industry, stores, offices and warehouses represents anywhere 
 from 80% to 90% of total lighting electricity use.  
   According to the EPA, the Green Lights Program would reduce annual air 
 pollution by 235 million tons, 5% of the national total. Sulfur dioxide 
 emissions, a major source of acid rain, would be reduced 1.7 million tons 
 annually. Nitrogen oxide, another component of acid rain, would be cut 
 900,000 tons a year. Annual carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions would be cut 232
 million tons -- the equivalent of removing the CO2 emissions of 42 million
 cars, or one-third of all U.S. automobiles.
   In addition to reducing pollution, the benefits of energy efficient lighting 
 systems include improvement of the quality of the work environment, 
 enhancement of national energy security and increasing corporate and 
 national competitiveness. 
   Digital has had an energy management program for the past 10 years. Based on
 its leadership work in the area of energy efficient lighting programs, the
 company was recruited to be one of the Green Lights Program's founding
 members.
	[Courtesy of Inside Contact, Corporate Employee Communication]

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
        Please send subscription and backissue requests to CASEE::VNS

    Permission to copy material from this VNS is granted (per DIGITAL PP&P)
    provided that the message header for the issue and credit lines for the
    VNS correspondent and original source are retained in the copy.

<><><><><><><><>   VNS Edition : 2244   Wednesday 23-Jan-1991   <><><><><><><><>

RE:    <<< Note 96.6 by STRATA::DWEST "Dont Overlook Something Extraordinary" >>>
                         -< turn out those lights...  >-

There are two florescent light fixtures above my office, both of which I
quenched when I moved here.  Having the lights down low not only saves
electricity there, but allows me to turn down the brightness on my terminal
screen, futher saving electricity and also reducing those nasty VDT emmissions.

Unfortunately, my bosses boss told my boss to tell me my office was too dark,
so I turned on one of the six florescent tubes above my cube. Damn, even that
one-sixth of the normal office dose of light around here is too much!

Fog_who'd_like_to_go_back_on_an_eve_shift_so_he_kan_werk_in_the_dark_again.

From a recent issue of Environmental Week, reprinted w/o permission:


EPA Plans Cow Methane Study

   PULLMAN, Washington - The Environmental Protection Agency will spend 
$210,000 on a three-year study to determine the effects of cow belching on 
global warming.
   Three scientists at Washington State University here said last week that 
they will study how much methane gas cows and other cud-chewing animals produce 
when they belch.
   The scientists plan to outfit hundreds of cows with back packs containing a 
gas monitor that is connected to a tube placed near their mouths.
   But there is no plan to measure cow flatulence because it is believed to be 
a comparativley minor source of methane.
   One of the scientists, Hal Westberg, said methane is a key factor in global 
warming. Livestock produce about 15% of all methane released into the earth's 
atmosphere.
  His colleague Brian Lamb added:  "The amount of methane in the atmosphere has 
been increasing by about 1 percent a year and we need to solve that."

  Contribution of greenhouse gasses to global warming:

  Carbon dioxide:	56%
  CFCs:			23%
  Methane:		14%
  Nitrous oxide:	 7%     Source: World Wildlife Fund

								-Reuters

    I think the largest contributor to the methane problem is from the
    garbage landfills.  However there is major studies going on to convert
    this gas into electricity.  In a marketing class I had last fall we did 
    a project on a waste disposal corportation that is pioneering this.  I
    forget the numbers but they said this would be very cheep energy for a 
    substatial number of homes.  
    
    I hope this isn't just good old corporate propaganda, and actually an
    effort to do something good with all the landfill waste.  
    
    scottg

Monitoring the methane output of cows for this purpose reminds me of Reagan's
statement that trees cause pollution.

re:             <<< Note 96.10 by ISLNDS::CLARK "bad moon arising" >>>

> Monitoring the methane output of cows for this purpose reminds me of Reagan's
> statement that trees cause pollution.

	What do you expect from an old fart ?

RE:  EPA Plans Cow Methane Study

Yet another impact of our government/industy-sponsored dependance on food
sources so high in the food chain...

Fog_who_has_been_reading_McDougal_and_who_had_Spegghetti_with_eggplant_balls_
for_lunch_(yum)!

    re: Methane
    
    You gotta come here after Super Taco Day at the cafeteria!  BURP!!!!
    
    dave

I just received word that Iraq has started dumping millions of gallons of oil 
into the Persian Gulf, to prevent an allied beach landing.  Bush says it is 
many many times worse than the Exxon Valdez spill in Alaska.

This, along with reports that he threw 10 or so SCUDS at Israel today (no word 
on how many reached the ground) has got me REALLY PISSED right now!!!

Scott

From: clarinews@clarinet.com (GEORGE LOBSENZ)
Newsgroups: clari.tw.environment,clari.biz.top
Subject: U.S. says only 'cost-effective' greenhouse gas cuts needed
Date: 6 Feb 91 00:22:58 GMT
 
	CHANTILLY, Va. (UPI) -- Amid criticism from Democrats, the Bush
administration urged delegates to an international conference Tuesday to
draw up a global warming treaty that seeks only those emission
reductions that are ``justified in their own right.''
	After releasing an ``action agenda'' to combat global warming Monday,
U.S. delegates to the United Nations' International Negotiating
Committee said ``cost-effective'' policies to limit heat-trapping
pollutants were warranted.
	But, with the negotiating committee facing a June 1992 deadline to
produce a ``framework'' global warming treaty, they said delegates
should focus on relatively noncontroversial emission-reduction
strategies that make sense on their own.
	``A major purpose of the framework convention should be to commit all
nations to take measures that are justified in their own right but also
have climate change benefits,'' E.U. Curtis Bohlen, leader of the U.S.
group, told delegates.
	``We are seeking to negotiate a framework convention on an issue of
unprecedented dimensions in a relatively brief time,'' said Bohlen,
assistant secretary of state for oceans, international environmental and
scientific affairs. ``Let us begin then by focusing on those areas where
we can reach agreement over the next year.''
	Bohlen also said any treaty should take a comprehensive approach that
includes all ``greenhouse gases'' -- not just carbon dioxide, the main
greenhouse gas of concern.
	Bohlen's emphasis on including all greenhouse gases is in line with
the ``action agenda'' released by the Bush administration that said the
United States already was pursuing actions that would result in U.S.
emissions of greenhouse gases in the year 2000 being equal or below 1987
levels.
	Among other actions, the glossy action agenda noted the United States
already was:
	--Reducing chlorofluorocarbons in response to a recently concluded
international treaty to protect the ozone layer. CFCs both destroy ozone
and trap heat in the atmosphere.
	--Cutting nitrogen oxides and other industrial and power plant
emissions believed to contribute to global warming. Those cuts are
required under the new Clean Air Act passed by Congress last year.
	--Limiting carbon dioxide emissions through federal programs to
improve energy efficiency and plant trees. Carbon dioxide is primarily
produced by burning oil, coal and other fossil fuels and trees absorb
carbon dioxide in photosynthesis.
	The message of the U.S. action agenda is that significant measures
already have been taken to combat global warming and therefore there is
no immediate need to embark on economically painful measures to sharply
reduce carbon dioxide emissions from burning fuel.
	However, several European governments already have made formal
commitments to cut carbon dioxide emissions by 20 percent and they have
criticized President Bush for failing to follow suit and opposing their
efforts to incorporate that goal into the global climate treaty.
	Environmentalists have charged that, in insisting on a 
``comprehensive'' approach, U.S. officials are trying to ``double count''
CFC reductions, which they say account for 75 percent of the emission
reductions under the agenda.
	Critics maintain industrialized nations must undertake substantial
carbon dioxide reductions if the world is to avoid major ecological
disruption over the next century from projected temperature increase
ranging between 2 to 10 degrees Fahrenheit.
	Democratic congressional leaders echoed the environmentalists'
criticism of U.S. policy Tuesday, saying the Bush administration had
failed to show global leadership on the issue.
	Senate Democratic leader George Mitchell of Maine called the action
agenda an ``inaction plan.''
	``The administration's statement of policy is positive in that it
recognizes that global warming demands a solution,'' he said. ``But the
administration fails to offer any solution. In this policy area, the
administration has chosen to follow, not to lead.''

    Here are some of the highlights from Bush's national energy plan, which
    were announced yesterday:
    
    --Increasing domestic oil production, including drilling in the Arctic
      National Wildlife Refuge in northern Alaska (one analyst on the news
      last night stated that this drilling would fill our energy needs for
      at most 6 months!)
    
    --Easing regulatory barriers for construction of nuclear power plants
      and the disposal of atomic wastes to revitalize the nuclear option as
      an energy source.
    
    --Streamlining regulations for building natural gas pipelines as well 
      as other actions to make natural gas a more competetive energy
      source.
    
    --Overhauling the regulation of the electric utility industry to
      increase competition and promote the use of renewable energy sources
      such as solar and wind power.
    
    --Rejected the suggestion for higher energy taxes as a means to reduce
      energy use and to fund research into solar and wind power 
    
    I didn't hear the word "conservation" mentioned in any of the articles
    I've seen this morning or on the news last night. In fact, some people
    are being penalized for saving energy. PG&E is offering energy rebates
    to residential and commercial users that invest in energy-saving
    appliances or insulation. This I found hard to believe--the government
    is *taxing* these rebates as a source of income. (Actually, why do I
    find this not hard to believe...)
    
    Mike

I didn't vote for him.









Jim

I'm not sure if I entered this already; I've read that the amount of oil we
receive from Kuwait could be saved if all cars in the U.S. got 2.75 more miles
per gallon.

Imagine, if everyone got a tune-up and kept their tires fully inflated ....

;^)

- Dave

     
    
    A new album just out to benefit PETA( people for the ethical treatment
    of animals) has some real nice music. The Pretenders, The Indigo Girls
    w/ Michael Stipe, Xena Xervana[sp] from X, and some others I can't
    remember. The songs so far are quite provoking imho.
    
    steve

This is from the e-net.  Original writer unknown

Subj:	SAVE A BUCK, POWER OFF MONITORS
Subj:	saving energy
Subj:	Powering off workstation monitors at night
Subj:	FYI, turning your workstation monitor off at night can save power!
Subj:	Powering off monitors at night is okay.


<<<< forwards removed <<<<<<
Anyhow, some of our staff [at Berkeley] did a quickie study of
power usage in the department.  They concluded, not surprisingly,
that workstations account for a large fraction of all our power
usage, and that monitors account for most of the power of a
workstation. 

They then suggested that we turn off our monitors at night to
save energy.  We were initially a bit concerned about this,
because many of us had heard stories that power-cycling monitors
is bad for them.  So, we called various monitor manufacturers to
find out whether this is still (or was ever) the case.  

We were told that frequent power-cycling isn't great for
monitors, but doing it once a day will have little effect on the
monitor lifetime. Furthermore, the wear from leaving a monitor on
overnight (even if you use a screen saver) does more damage to
the monitor than turning it off and on.  Thus it seems to be true
that turning your monitor off at night will both save energy and
extend the life of the monitor.
 
I was surprised to hear this, and I've now started turning my
monitors off at night.  You all might consider doing the same.

Re: save energy

We have been advised NOT to do that;  cycling power does indeed thrash your
monitor's life expectancy.

JC

    Yup.  I saw the mail going round and I agree with .22

    VR260's will croak if power cycled...
    
    	Don't know why
    	Don't know if what other monitors will do
    
    	I expect mod's to that memo will start circulating soon.
    
    							/Bill
    

RE:      <<< Note 96.25 by STAR::SALKEWICZ "It missed... therefore, I am " >>>
                      -< Wait before you start this one >-

   > VR260's will croak if power cycled...
    

     Yeah...this caused us part chasers a shi*load of problems for quite
     a while.  Took us about 6 months to recover.

 

     P1's from Hell.



        

re:  <<< Note 96.25 by STAR::SALKEWICZ "It missed... therefore, I am " >>>

>    VR260's will croak if power cycled...

Gee...I wonder if it has anything to do with our splendidly-designed
VR260 deflection board???  Hmmmm...

peace,
t!ng

RE:           <<< Note 96.27 by SKYLRK::TING "Give Peace a Chance!!!" >>>


>Gee...I wonder if it has anything to do with our splendidly-designed
>VR260 deflection board???  Hmmmm...




Which was the source of our parts nightmares around here.  That part became
known as the crispy critter around here.



Jim

The problem with VR260's frying because of power cycling (actually, power spikes
were the nasty problem) was fixed long ago.

I turn off both of my workstation monitors (a VR19 and a VR160) every night.

tms

posted w/o permission.

From:	WRKSYS::ARUMUGHAM    "Raggy Arumugham,Workstations,MLO1-2/U2,223-6225" 12-APR-1991 17:24:55.10
Subj:	Re:Turning of Monitors at night

 Bob,

 I recommend and encourage everyone to leave their monitors(color or 
monochrome) in Power-Off condition during night hours .

 Addtionally,always have the screen saver enabled and set for
5-10 minute range.CRTs are always specified for "50% Briteness life" -
that is the time for the light output to drop to 50% of the initial 
value if the unit were operated continuously.Typical 50% life for high
quality CRTs are in the order of 15,000 to 20,000 Hours with
contrast/briteness set to high levels.

  The theory about frequent power-cycling of monitors is bad for CRTs is based
on the fact that the CRT gun elements are subjected to thermal stress 
and cathode degradation(due to non-ideal vacuum conditions) due to frequent
cycling.But,these problems have been mostly solved by CRT manufacturers.

  The elctronics parts of monitors use components similar to the ones used
on home TV and Stereo but of very high performance and quality.Switch mode
power supplies,similar to the ones used with computer systems,are aslo used
on high resolution monitors.It is unlikely that power cycling once a day
will increase the failure rate.

   Please circulate to your Monitor-News distribution.

   Regards.,

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: ouster@wrl.dec.com
From: ouster (John Ousterhout)
Subject: Monitors, FYI

There's been a big fuss recently at Berkeley over power usage in
EECS.  We consume something like 1/3 of all the power on campus,
excluding Lawrence Berkeley Labs.  Rumor has it that the Chancellor
thinks that if we cut down on our power usage he can redirect some
of the grant overhead  money to maintaining his yacht and buying
flowers for the Chancellor's house.

Anyhow, some of our staff did a quickie study of power usage in
the department.  They concluded, not surprisingly, that workstations
account for a large fraction of all our power usage, and that
monitors account for most of the power of a workstation.  They
then suggested that we turn off our monitors at night to save
energy.  We were initially a bit concerned about this, because
many of us had heard stories that power-cycling monitors is bad
for them.  So, we called various monitor manufacturers to find
out whether this is still (or was ever) the case.  We were told
that frequent power-cycling isn't great for monitors, but doing
it once a day will have little effect on the monitor lifetime.
Furthermore, the wear from leaving a monitor on overnight (even
if you use a screen saver) does more damage to the monitor than
turning it off and on.  Thus it seems to be true that turning
your monitor off at night will both save energy and extend the
life of the monitor.

I was surprised to hear this, and I've now started turning my
monitors off at night.  You all might consider doing the same.

					-John-

P.S. Please don't tell anyone I told you this.... I'm already
on probation with the Republican Party for turning off our
sprinkler system this month.

re JC

I was reading an article about electric cars a short time ago ... don't
remember the specifics, but there are American car companies working on
electric cars right now.  They expect Mitsubishi Motor corp. to come out with
theirs first, though.  Also, I think the article mentioned that the Japanese
will be using a battery design which is more advanced, allowing for a greater
travelling distance before recharge.

The Oil, Auto, and Labor Lobbies would never allow such things to be 
successfully sold in quantity in the U.S.  Heck, they won't even allow 
legislation to raise Fuel economy requirements or legislate required
saftey features like air bags and stronger bumpers. Remember, The two
largest corporations/employers in this country are GM and Exxon.

Too bad, I'd buy one.

Isn't GM or Ford coming out with an electric car next year?  I've seen it
mentioned in many TV-news-magazine type shows.   I can't remember the name, but
I think it starts with "S".

adam

    Fog is right about the problem there with the large incestuous
    relationship going on between our gubmt, the auto industry, the oil
    industry, and the unions.
    
    But Fog,.. never say never
    
    The Japaneese manufacturers don't care how screwed up our own system
    is,.. if they can sell them, they will. I'll buy one too.
    
    The only thing that could stop them would be super high import
    tarriffs, which may oor may not come to pass, or some actual
    restrictive legislation, prohibiting their sale. If the latter
    happens, I'll be organizing the march on the capitol to see it changed.
    If the former happens, I'll be writing letters,.. adn hopefully so
    will a lot of other people.
    
    This idea solves too many problems to be squashed by short sighted self
    serving politicians and business men. Just to name a couple:
    
    	- significant decrease in our dependence on oil, and corresponding
    	  increase in our self sufficiency as a nation/economic entity
    
    	- significant decrease in pollution and green house gas production
    
    	- significant decrease in the cost for the average Joe tro get to
    	  work
    
    	- significant decrease in the price/reliability of the vehicle Joe
    uses to ghet to work
    
    	- ... ... ... 
    
    It simply must come to pass. Its almost time for me to start thinking
    about another "beater that gets me to work and back",.. and I'm
    seriously thinking about going electric. I really don't need the
    second gas burner for anything other than getting to work in my
    small family of two,.. so I may just go for it. 
    
    							/
    
    PS There are elec. cars available here today. You just have to know
    where to look. I think the best deal is on a kit that you build
    yourself right now.
    

	I was reading today in the Globe about Exxon and the Valdez oil
spill.  Some judge wants to make the fine Exxon will have to pay much
higher than it is... on another note, Exxon just reported a 75% JUMP in
profits this past quarter.  Can you spell Gouge?  Though so...

	Gas prices are high here in New England ($1.20 /gal of unleaded).

	I'd consider an electric car...

    Gas prices must vary widely according to state and local taxes.  In
    Tampa earlier this month, unleaded regular was about $1.09, but the
    same day, when I drove up to the Atlanta showz, I saw it for $.92.
    
    Right now it's about $1.12 here.  Still too high.
    
    tim
    

re:< Note 96.35 by STAR::SALKEWICZ "It missed... therefore, I am " >
                             -< Its electric :-) >-

>    The only thing that could stop them would be super high import
>    tarriffs, which may oor may not come to pass, or some actual
>    restrictive legislation, prohibiting their sale. If the latter

Good point.  I'm almost sure our govt would put high tarriffs on any electric
cars coming from Japan.  Look what they did a few years ago, 100% tarriffs on
some electronic equipment.  Reagan and his Protectionism.  Phooey.

I'm sure those oil lobbies have the power to tarriff Japanese electric cars in
a big way.

>    	- significant decrease in our dependence on oil, and corresponding
>    	  increase in our self sufficiency as a nation/economic entity
>    
>    	- significant decrease in pollution and green house gas production
>    
>    	- significant decrease in the cost for the average Joe tro get to
>    	  work
>    
>    	- significant decrease in the price/reliability of the vehicle Joe
>    uses to ghet to work

These are all valid points.  But also keep in mind that fossil fuel burning is
still the primary way of generating electricity in this country.  If everyone
got an electric car, we'd probably end up using the same amount of fossil fuels
satisfying the increased demand for electricity from everyone recharging their
cars.  But, then again, the incremental increase in pollution due to increased
fossil fuel burning due to increased electric demand is probably less than the
sum of the pollutions caused by all the gasoline cars on the road.

I've probably mentioned this before, but Germany (I think) has a novel approach
to electric cars.  Commuters drive their cars to the train station, then park
in a special lot where they plug in their cars to be recharged by the time they
get out of work.  The source of electricity for the recharge: purely SOLAR!

adam

    gas just went up here (colo) bout 6 cents...getting ready to gouge the
    touristos for summer time, unfortunately that also gouges us local
    yokels too.  
                rfb

rfb, what are you paying?  When I was there last december, prices were about
10-13 cents cheaper than Shaft England, er, New England.

After the war, prices here dropped to 1.09 /gal.  They have slowly increased
to about $1.21 /gal.  But, the price they pay for the stuff has not increased
*that* much and no new taxes have been added in (amazing, esp. in Mass).

    we are paying  (now) about $1.15 -$1.20 too. Winter prices are always
    cheaper here due to the state depending on tourists so much in the
    summer for income. Another shaft, the day before military payday
    here the prices go up...few days afterwards (when the GIs have spent
    all their monies) the prices go down slightly again, happens every
    month.  
                                  rfb

    re .41
    
    	That is f*cked Randy,.. completely unfair
    
    re .38
    
    	But Adam,.. whats stopping me from erecting a solar collector
    or a wind mill to charge me batteries with instead of "pluuging in"
    to fossil fuel burning electric co.?
    
    	That is true, but thats the 'next' problem to solve. We have to
    start to finish,.,.every journet begins with a single step etc etc
    bla bla bla
    
    							/
    

    $1.20 a gallon is too high? We have the cheapest fuel of (probably) all
    the industrialized nations. It's our cheap fuel that
    1) keeps us from developing alternative sources
    2) doesn't promote mass transportation, and
    3) makes us the biggest consumer of oil of any nation
    
    Nigel tells me that unleaded in England is about $2/gallon, and that's
    cheap compared to the continent.
    
    I'm doing a little for my part, my new Harley (which I get tonight!!!)
    will get 40-50% better mileage than my Honda currently gets, even
    though the engine is almost twice as big.
    
    I don't think the oil companies should be gouging. I'd rather see them
    make less profits and we pay higher taxes. It would certainly do better
    to put the money towards improving the roads (anyone that's crossed the
    Mass border on any road knows they need it), better driver education,
    more safety stuff (like the fish-eye reflectors that go between the
    lines), instead of lining the pockets of some corporate executives.
    
    Scott
    

    
    In LaLa, CA a couple weeks ago, regular unleaded gas was 87.9 a gallon. 
    Could you say being closer to the source makes it cheaper? 
    
    c 

re:< Note 96.42 by STAR::SALKEWICZ "It missed... therefore, I am " >
                             -< one day at a time >-

>    	But Adam,.. whats stopping me from erecting a solar collector
>    or a wind mill to charge me batteries with instead of "pluuging in"
>    to fossil fuel burning electric co.?

Yes, you're right.  The way to go would be a personalized solar cell to
recharge your own car.

I am a bit disturbed at the state of solar energy in this country, and the
world.  With all our scientific advances of the last 50 years, you'd think we
could harness the sun efficiently.  I know the efficiency of solar power has
increased greatly recently, but the sheer size of solar panels make them
somewhat impractical now for most applications.  I am sure if we really worked
at it we could devise a high powered solar cell that's small.  As was said,
those damn lobbyists have suppressed a lot of research into solar energy. 
Wind, too.  Someday, though, we'll do it.

I wouldn't mind having a solar panel on the roof of my house.  If every house
in America had a solar panel on the roof, I'm sure our electric usage would go
down quite a bit.  The problem is, until it gets quite popular, the cost of
installing one will be high.  I can't imagine the actual cost (before markup)
of installing one being more than $1000.

adam

re:           <<< Note 96.45 by EZRIDR::SIEGEL "The wheel is turning" >>>

>I am a bit disturbed at the state of solar energy in this country, and the
>world.  

If you would like some real good information on the state of solar power today,
you should check out Home Power magazine.  They have alot of good articles on
the latest developments in solar panels, batteries and inverters.  Send me mail
if you want more info.  We're planning on powering our (future) cabin in Maine
with solar.

		Dave

RE: .35 (never say never)

	Wish I could be that optimistic, /.

Ya see, during the Persian gulf thing, the Congress signed into legislation a 
"National Energy Strategy". This was not a policy, it was a _strategy_, which
by its very title capitalized on the fact that we were at war to aviod doing 
the environmentally correct thing. This legislation called for increased 
expliotation of the Alaskan frontier and offshore oilfields in sensitive areas 
(like directly off Big Sur). Also, the bill allowed for the licencing of new 
Nuclear power plants without any citizen review and with reduced involvement by 
Government regulatory agencies. And, like I mentioned before, Previously
proposed increases in automobile fuel economy standards were all but flopped.
No incentives for developing or adopting energy convervation practices were 
incorporated into this new strategy.

	When Mr. President gave his State of The Union Address, Congress gave
him a standing ovation for his promise of a progressive set of laws to
establish a national energy policy. Capitalism itself, he said, would create an
energy efficient america because of the inherant profit motives in doing so. If
this is the result of Bush's environmental progress, I can't wait to see the
results of Bush's progressive Education policy which Congress is debating
now... 

	Bottom line is were going to have to go it alone, and can't expect the 
help of government or industry.

Fog

    In the Worcester paper today I read a story about a woodchip power
    plant to be built in Westminster Ma. the 1st one in the state.
    
    	"This will secure a safe energy future for the commomwealth" stated
    Paul Gromer, the State's Commissioner of Energy Resources. "50% of the
    electricity produced in the state is from oil burning plants, and the
    majority of that oil is imported."
    
    is this good or bad, whats worse oil or wood smoke ?
    
    Chris

    re .48
    
    	Well if they're going to be burning wood or wood ships ,..
    that aint much better,... if not worse than burning oil
    
    
    
    re Fog
    
    	You're right. The government will never do the right thing for us
    as long as they are controlled by oil/auto/name your favorite lobbyist.
    
    	We will go it alone. We must. That is the never I am talking about.
    I hope that we will on our own somehow make the revolution. I agree
    100% that we can't caount on govt. to do it for us. Your quoting
    	the recent energy policy is just more proof of that.
    
    	So heres to us,...
    
    							/
    

 Over the weekend on the Discovery channel I saw a show called
Beyond 2000. A grate program IMO. Anyways, they show a clip on 
an Austrialian lab that is working on sewerage treatment. Can't
remember all the specifics but what they do is add magnitite(sp?),
a natural substance, to the raw sewerage, then pass it over a magnet
and run off the clean, very clean by the looks of it, water. The sludge
that is created is much less in bulk than with conventional methods 
used today, also it can be used as fertilizer. They went on to explain
how it breaks down all the harmful germs present in human waste and 
whatnot. Of course all this is still in the development stages, but
hopefully someday it will be up and running in a full scale working
model. 

Oh yea, they also mention how it can save large cities such as New York,
Hong Kong, London, and Paris Billions of dollars.   Because of
the limited amount of space needed for the facillity, it will also
use less land than todays plants.


Shawn

I caught an interesting special on ESPN over the weekend on the Grand Canyon 
and its neighboring waterways and canyons, narrated by Glen Frey of the Eagles. 
We (humans) are just eating that place up :^(  Anyay, one of the geological 
engineers that was interviewed while investigating the affects the dams are 
having on silt downriver was wear a Dead t-shirt (looked like the Dead Set 
logo).

Scott

================================================================================
Note 9.1                     Digital and environment                      1 of 2
                                                      141 lines  18-Dec-90 08:56
                     -< Report of Environment initiatives >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This note is an edited version of a paper produced by Polly Strife of
    EH&S and gives a good overview of Digitals many contributions to the
    Environment. As well as being good citizens of the world we can and
    have capitalized on some of these actions as part of our selling process to
    prospective Environment customers.
    
    malcolm
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    
Environmental Health & Safety policy

Digital has produced an Environmental Health & Safety policy document 
signed by Ken Olsen and circulated to all employees. This has also been 
given to other corporations and organizations such as the International 
Chamber of Commerce. It can also be made available to customers to help 
them develop their own policies.
    

Protection of the Earth's Ozone Layer and CFC's
    
Digital instituted a worldwide CFC phase-out program in June of 1988 and is 
aggressively pursuing a goal of eliminating CFCs from all manufacturing 
operations by the end of 1994.

    
Aqueous Cleaning

In 1989 Digital became a founding member of the Industry Cooperative for 
Ozone Layer Protection (ICOLP). ICOLP is a joint venture between the U.S. 
Environmental Protection Agency and several companies including AT&T, the 
Boeing Company, British Aerospace, Ford Motor Company, General Electric 
Honeywell, Motorola, Northern Telecom, and Texas Instruments.  Its purpose 
is to exchange information and technology for the worldwide reduction of 
CFC usage in the electronics industry. 

For more than ten years, Digital has used water-based cleaning in many of 
its printed-circuit board manufacturing operations, instead of CFC-based 
solvents.  However, water-based cleaning processes were not effective in 
cleaning modules using the newer surface-mount technologies. In 1990, 
Digital introduced a new aqueous cleaning technology which will enable the 
elimination of this use of CFCs. The technology was developed by engineers 
in Digital's Augusta, Maine manufacturing facility. 

In April 1990, Digital announced that it was making its new aqueous 
cleaning technology for printed circuit boards freely available for use by 
other manufacturers worldwide. Technical information about the CFC 
alternative process is being supplied through ICOLP.  To date the 
information has been supplied to more than 500 companies,and local, state, 
and national governments. We have indications that the technology is being 
implemented by a substantial number of companies and has been the basis for 
the development of similar technologies for other applications. 

At a time when many companies were talking about their intent to transfer 
technology, Digital took decisive  action in putting global environmental 
protection ahead of licensing revenue. Recognizing the significance of this 
contribution, the EPA selected Digital as a recipient of the 1990 
Stratospheric Ozone Protection Award. 


Strategic Waste Management  

In July 1989, Digital initiated a formal Strategic Waste Management 
Program. This worldwide program includes energy, regulated/hazardous 
wastes; facility/operating waste materials such as cafeteria wastes, pac 
and packaging materials; raw materials,plastic, components and electronic 
equipment, and capital equipment such as furniture.  Among the primary 
goals of the program is a 50% reduction of disposal volumes within 5 years.

The waste management program is developing new and innovative ways to 
recycle and reuse current wastes. At the same time, it is working with the 
product design teams to reduce the use of toxic substances and to increase 
the recyclability of materials used in future products. 

Elements of the waste management program of particular note are: 

Annual Packaging costs have been reduced by $1.6 million by reducing the 
volume of packaging used per component and through the use of reusable 
packagings. 

Corporate energy management programs have resulted in a savings of 18.8 
million kilowatts annually.  This eliminates the need for 30,000 barrels of 
oil annually and results in a 3 million pound reduction in carbon dioxide 
production.

 Digital is currently testing recycled plastic resins for use in Digital 
products and other new applications.

In addition to recycling paper, Digital is specifying the use of recycled 
paper wherever possible.

Many Digital site recycling and waste minimization efforts have been 
initiated through employee involvement.  Digital's European Services & 
Supplies Center located at Nijmegen and Oudenrijn, Holland is a good 
example.  In the Fall of 1989 the Center kicked off a business-wide 
employee environmental campaign.  The first of its kind in Holland, the 
campaign's objective is "to reduce the use of polluting materials".  The 
program which has been commended  by Holland's Minister of the Environment 
has resulted in a series of employee efforts that are improving 
environmental quality. Digital's Nijmegen business operations are using 
only recycled paper, using batteries without mercury and are reusing 
packaging materials. For these efforts, Digital's European Services & 
Supplies Center was selected from over 7,500 companies to receive the 
province of Gelderland's Environmental Award.


 The Global Environmental Management Initiative (GEMI) is an industry 
coalition founded to foster environmental excellence by business worldwide.  
Digital is a member of GEMI and strongly supports its goals.   Digital has 
sponsored museum exhibits such as the New England Aquarium's Boston Harbor 
exhibit, which demonstrates how the harbor came to be so severely polluted 
and what needs to be done to clean it up. Digital is also a founding 
supporter of the new science center, NOREKA, in Bergen, Norway.

In cooperation with the Association of Science-Technology Centers (ASTC) 
and the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR), Digital developed 
an interactive video exhibit on global warming.  The exhibit was premiered 
as a part of the NOREKA "Living Earth" exhibition; it is now running at the 
Franklin Institute in Philadelphia, PA and at the NCAR Visitor Center.  The 
exhibit will be a part of larger traveling exhibitions in the United States 
and Europe. 

To further increase public awareness, a recent episode of the "Infinite 
Voyage", Digital's Emmy-award-winning television series, focused on the 
"Crisis in the Atmosphere".  The program, underwritten by Digital on the 
Public Broadcast System (PBS) and sponsored by Digital on commercial 
television, explores what research is discovering about the atmosphere 
around us.  In particular, it examines the work of Dr. F. Sherwood Rowland 
and Mario Molina, the two scientists who in 1973 first hypothesized about 
the damage chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) were doing to the earth's ozone 
layer.  Digital also sponsored a Discovery Lecture Series series by Dr. 
Rowland.  The lecture was broadcast live by satellite to hundreds of 
colleges, universities and corporations. 

Digital supports the leadership provided by non-profit environmental 
organizations such as World Resources Institute (WRI). In 1989, Digital 
donated $250,000 of computer equipment to support WRI's work in promoting 
sustainable development and conserving the global environment.
    

    In your opinion, how does dec impact the environment?
    

    
    is negatively too general of a response??  :^)
    
    actually, it's pretty neat to see some of the efforts that DEC is
    putting forth to minimize some of the impact...  things like recycling
    materials and CFC reduction are cool and should be happening
    everywhere...  
    
    but there's still a looooong way to go...  we use LOTS of chemicals,
    gases, polymers, plastics, packaging materials, fuel for vehicles,
    heating, electricity, air conditioning etc., that have a strong impact 
    on the down side...
    
    so applause, applause!!  DEC is taking steps to green up it's act to
    some extent...  but we have (imho) a long way to go before we are truly
    green...  just because we drop our printer paper in a recycle bucket
    doesn't make us "friends of the earth"....
    
    				da ve

    ... if we stopped using chemicals, gases, polymers, plastics, packaging
    materials, fuel for vehicles, heating, electricity, air conditioning,
    ect.  we'd all be unemployes.  THEN what do we do ... live on
    cooperative farms for the rest of our lives ???
    
    ... Bob
    

    Subsistance farming? Why not? ;-)

    Well, farming might sound like a dandy idea for those of you who've
    never tried it.  I grew up on a farm, and I can tell ya it ain't all
    it's cracked up to be.  For me there are three basic reasons I wouldn't
    want to live like that ...
    
    1.  It's hard work ... you're up before daybreak every day and dead
        tired by suppertime.
    
    2.  It's boring ... most farmers I know are about as interesting to
        talk to as their cattle, and prefer it that way.  Social life
        usually is confined to church and church-related activity.
    
    3.  I don't want to spend the rest of my life smelling like cow sh!t.
    
    If I wanted to be a farmer, the opportunity still exists for me to do
    so at any time (relatives in 10-S-E are always looking for a couple of
    extra hands).  No thanks ... I'd rather get stressed out working at a
    place like Digital and enjoy the diversity of a more urban-type
    existance.
    
    ... Bob
     

	Well, I have to hand it to DEC for *sharing* the CFC reduction process
with other companies w/o asking them for royalties, etc.  Most big business
types would try to turn a profit from something like this.  I see this as a
byproduct of Ken Olsen's sharing and caring for people style.

    
    re .55  works for me! :^)
    
    actually, i don't necessarily advocate a return to the stone age or 
    completely demobilizing industry...  i think we can all agree that
    it's just a tad unrealistic...  
    
    the question was asked, however, in your opinion, what effect does 
    this place have on the environment?  i think we generate a LOT of trash
    (a BAD effect), i think we use a LOT of chemicals that end up as
    hazardous wastes or harmful airborne emissions (a BAD effect), and i
    think we use a lot more paper, packaging materials, raw materials, 
    electricity etc than we really need to (another BAD effect)...
    
    like i said before, i am encouraged by the efforts going on now to try
    and reverse these trends...
    
    but i am also discouraged by some folks in the company who think we are
    so green in our approach that we should sprout leaves... 
    
    				da ve

    Regular unleaded in RI is $1.27 per gallon.  We (taxpayers) are bailing
    out the banking crisis here in RI!  The RI gubmit, or should I say all
    the big time bankers and mafia that has RI gubmit in it's pockets screw
    up and we pay.  Of course, the American way.  I buy my gas in Mass.  My
    bank account is in Mass.  I work in Mass.  I will not pay for the
    banking problem in RI! Luckily I work in Mass and live close to the
    border, but I don't live in Mass.  Best of both worlds, I guess.
    
    
    dave

Listening to the radio this morning I believe I heard a preort that Bush
is proposing some sort of conservation/alternative energy sources program.


Must be getting close to election season.





Jim

Unfortunately, "proposing", or any form of the verb to propose, seems to be 
the most overused word in political language while "implemnting", or any form 
of the verb to implement, remains the mosty underused.

Scott

    
    re .60
    
    dave,
    
    those of us living in MA appreciate you spending your money here to
    help us pay for the problems that *our* crooked politicians made...
    thanks for the helping hand bud! :^) :^) :^)
    
    					da ve

Today, in the Boston Globe, there was an article stating that Shaft-Us-Chusetts
is at the bottom of the list of how well states are managed.

Great.

thisd reply is reposted from ENVIRONMENTAL_ISSUES with the permission
    of the original poster (who incidentally has nothing to do with 
    the organization mentioned but thought it sounded lie a rilly cool
    thing)...
    
    				da ve_who_also_has_nothing_to_do_with
    				_this_org_but_thinks_it's_a_rilly_cool
    				thing_
    
    
     <<< TOWNS::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]ENVIRONMENTAL_ISSUES.NOTE;1 >>>
             -< Current topics concerning the natural environment >-
================================================================================
Note 336.0          EnvLeader Training July 8, Medford Mass.          No replies
CSSE32::TDOLAN "Tim-CSSE/DSS 381-2832 ZK1-1/d19"     44 lines   1-MAY-1991 21:20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
		Environmental Leadership Training Institute
		Monday July 8 through Friday July 12, 1991
	
			Sponsored by 
		Environmental Citizenship Program
		The Lincoln Filene Center
		Tufts University, Medford Mass. 02155
			617-381-3451


This program will be an intensive training session for those who seek
to increase their environmental awareness, leadership, and
citizenship.  It will be a one-week leadership training experience for
citizen leaders, professional staff of nonprofits, teachers
volunteers, conservation commission and planning board members,
business leaders and government officials. 

The institute will focus on practical issues, with "how-to" sessions 
in areas of importance to the development of leadership skills for 
state and national professionals, as well as volunteers at the local 
level.

* Skills-oriented sessions will include: corporate and foundation 
fundraising; grassroots organizing and political activism; editing a 
newsletter; holding and testifying at public hearings; dealing with 
the media; lobbying; administration and management; recruitment and 
management of volunteers; conflict resolution methods (including 
mediation); use of computers; and initiating local, state, and 
national legislation.

* Updates on current environmental issues will cover; hazardous waste; 
wetlands protection and water supply; land acquisition and management; 
acid rain and air pollution; forest management; international 
environmental issues; growth management; global warming; coastal 
issues; pesticides; environmental law enforcement; nuclear power; and 
the Georges Bank issue.

Brief details: Early registration, before June 15 is $250.00.
Registration after June 15, is $300.00.  Please register before June
28 if possible.  Tuition is not refundable after June 28 
Housing and meals are available on site at modest prices. Partial 
scholarships are available to those who need financial assistance.

    
    since i am here in the environmental issues note i thought i would
    mention worcester's arbor day thang last sunday in institute park...
    
    i had found out about it at saturday nites slipknot gig or i would
    have posted it in time for other people to swing by and check it out
    too...
    
    in the bandstand at the park there was an all-afternoon show featuring
    The Robbs, Chuck and Mud, Carrie Newcomber (who is at the OVK saturday
    and is really good) and Nexus...  also performing was a Vietnamese
    dance troup (did a really neat dragon dance and another to celebrate
    the plating and harvesting of the rice crop)...
    
    the performers were all excellent but since they weren't really the 
    main focus of the day i won't go on about them here (but if you ask me
    in person you'll probably want me to shut up! :^)...  the big thing
    was earth day/arbor day...  local area businesses put up the cash for
    the whole shebang...  there were booths from area recycling programs,
    greenpeace, audobon society etc...  and lots of cool stuff for kids
    (story telling, clowns, face painting and the like) all of which had
    some sort of environmental bent...  the audobon peoplehad a little
    display thing that talked about what kind of critters live in ponds
    liek the one there in the park (yes Virginia...  in spite of it's
    current condition, things are alive in there)...   there were thousands
    of seedlings given away...  my new fir tree is now replanted in my
    living room until i can find a good place for it (though i will
    probably not put it outside for a year or two as per the advice of one
    of the speakers)...
    
    a way cool afternoon and it was all free...  i guess it's safe to say
    that not only does wormtown rock, but it is also getting a healthy
    green streak through it...
    
    				da ve

    I have a big problem with the Us vs. Them (big business, government,
    oil companies) mentality.  It won't do the planet any good if we all
    swap our gas guzzlers for electric cars, this would just move the
    emissions source from your car to the faceless electric plant.  What we
    need is an end to the cult of the automobile, and a return to
    neighborhood living.  Neighborhood living means you live, work, and
    spend in your community.  It means an end to commuting, which, IMHO, is
    one of the major environmental problems facing this country (not just
    due to auto emissions, don't forget the environmental impact of
    building and maintaining roads).
    
    Let's stop blaming the other guys and start changing our lifestyles.  I
    can't improve on Walt Kelley's "we have met the enemy and he is us."
    
    Jamie
    
    PS - I don't want to sound preachy, and I do firmly include myself in
    the us camp.

I generally agree with you Jamie, but my problem is that, no matter how much
the individual changes his or her lifestyle, you need the cooperation of the
government, big business, oil, etc.  

I believe that the mentality of much of big business is that profit comes
before everything else, including environmentalism, and that one large
corporation can do a huge amount of damage to the environment ... I'm betting
that "big business" really appreciated Earth Day last year, because the main
message was that each individual has to change his/her lifestyle (which is true)
, while there was very little discussion, that I heard anyway, about what
Dow Chemical et al should do.  

Look at Bush's energy policy.  Where's the emphasis on r&d of alternate energy
sources?  Mass transportation?  Until I get an impression that our government
is more concerned with a sensible energy policy in this country, instead of
keeping the oil & auto companies happy, the gov't will be a "them."

- Dave

    
    while i recognize the merit in what you propose Jamie, i don't really
    think it's feasible anymore...  ie, i live in worcester, and there
    isn't a whole lot of employment opportunity there that is comparable
    to what i have in hudson 17 miles away...  and from what i have see
    (and i have looked) there's not much that i can really afford when it
    comes to living in hudson (which i don't really want to do anyway)...
    
    i believe that the technology can be made available so that we can
    move large numbers of people more efficiently (mass transport, company
    sponsored shuttle services etc) during the commute AND have fuel
    eficient, more enironmentally kind means of personal transportation...
    sacrificing personal mobility is not the only answer, imho...
    
    as for the electric car...  i would much rather be trying to control
    a large, centralized source of pollution (electrical plant of some
    sort) than to control a few million smaller sources (personal cars)...
    
    				da ve

    
    according to todays VNS, this is national bike week in the UK...
    
    					da ve

Re: Bike week

I think we had ours a couple weeks (months?) back.  I seem to remember some
chatter in here about it.

JC

    There's a bike week every year in Daytona, but it's the hairy Harley
    type.  Probably back in March or so...
    
    tim
    

    
    Tim....
    
     Yea it was the 50th year this year, they even have all kinds of races
    and most of the bikes that race are not from this country.
    
    Divide Dave
    
    One of thoes "hairy Harley types"
    
    BTW so is Julie
    

    Re: Hairy Harleys
    
    No offense, D.D.  Although I've never attended, everything I've ever
    heard about Daytona's Bike Week has been extremely civilized and
    peaceful.  One of my co-workers in Orlando goes every year, with her
    husband.  It's the spring break crowd that really tears things up.
    
    tim
    

    Julie's not so hairy.....now Divide Dave...that's another hairy
    story!!!

    
    This has been bugging me for a while now - I hope someone can shed some
    light on this for me.  If Digital is a company that is concerned about
    the environment then why do we still have paper towels in the
    washrooms???  Every day I go in there the wastebasket is overflowing
    with paper garbage.  Why don't we have hand driers or one of those
    rotating cloth things??? 
    
    Happy Cheese-
    Jerry

    cause we (the company) are more concerned with keeping our jobs right
    now.... funny how priorities affect other priorities, ain't it. 
                                                                    rfb

    Those cloth roll things are very unsanitary.  Beats me why we don't
    have blowers.  Maybe cause people will waste more time waiting for
    their hands to dry under one? 
    
    dave

    There's trade-offs no matter what you use.  Those hand driers consume
    electricity, and those rotating cloth things need cleaning.  If you're
    really concerned with the environment, wipe y'er hands on y'er pants.
    
    ... Bobbb
    

    I hate blowers .... even if they are sanitary,enviromentally safe etc,
    always causes a line of people waiting for blower jobs
    
    rich

	Or...

Don't bother washing yer hands (Take care not to git NE onya).

 The paper towels used in all the sites I've been recently are made from 
recycled paper and I wouldn't be suprised if the re-recycle them after they 
are used. What else goes into those trash recepticles?

Geoff

    Yeah, there's nothing I hate more than having to wait in line for a
    blower job. :-)
    
    tim
    

    Ahhh, you guys are full 'o hot air!
    
    dave

    re.83
    
    I was waitin for that from you TG.
                                      rfb

    wipe yer hands on yer pants! Are you deadheads or MBA's?
    
    - DAve

  Use your tie :^)

    re Are you deadheads or MBA's?
    
    	Yes
    
    						/:-)
    

    Well, I'm becoming an MBA (Mountain Bike Addict) ... but I digress, and
    this ain't the digression topic ... ;^)
    
    							... Bobbb
    

what / said

I love the directions on those air dryers:

	1) push button
	2) rub hands under air nozzle
	3) machine shuts off automatically


Then, never fail, someone scratches in something like:

	4) use your pants.

	:-)

GE, DIGITAL FORM COOPERATIVE VENTURE TO BOOST PLASTIC RECYCLING

	  "GE, Firms Form Venture to Boost Plastic Recycling"
	  (The Wall Street Journal, 06/18/91)

General Electric's plastic that goes into Digital Equipment's computer
housings is ending up as shingles on the roofs of McDonald's restaurants.  In
an experiment to broaden plastic recycling, GE said reclaimed computer
housings from Digital were melted and mixed with 48% virgin plastic and turned
into roof panels that resemble cedar shake shingles.  The shingles were
recently installed on two Chicago McDonald's restaurants.  GE said it formed
"a cooperative venture" with Digital, McDonald's, and Nailite Corp., the
manufacturer of the shingles, as part of a three-year program to determine the
economic and performance feasibility of the roof panels.   McDonald's has
committed to spending $100 million annually to purchase recycled plastics for
use in building and remodeling its U.S. restaurants.  In recent years,
plastics recycling efforts have focused on plastic bottles, cups and other
food containers.  Plastics manufacturers as well as their customers are
increasingly realizing that they must find ways to recycle plastic, from auto
bumpers to computer housings, in the face of mounting environmental pressures.
"It's a marketing and environmental investment," said a spokesman for GE's
Plastics unit.  He said the parties involved have contributed to a common fund
toward the recycling program.  (Article Reprinted in Its Entirety)

End 

    

    AllRight! some good news for a change! I LIKE reading things like this
in notes!
         rfb

@UCF:
    
            WE NEED YOUR HELP TO MAKE OUR RECYCLING PROGRAMS WORK!

We are working to get a paper recycling program in place at this site and will
be announcing all the details shortly.

In the meantime, we'd like to ask for your participation to help us with our
current recycling efforts.

We are currently recycling paper, aluminum cans, plastic, wood, and glass.

Most of the wastebaskets under each of your desks contains about 99% of these
recyclable items, primarily paper.  When we throw apple cores, banana peels, or
coffee cups into the wastebaskets it contaminates the paper and renders the
contents of the wastebasket unrecyclable.

If you could take a little time out to dispose of these non-recyclable items in
the trash cans provided in the vending and coffee areas, we can save Digital a
significant amount of money in waste disposal costs and help to preserve our
natural resources through recycling.

Thank you in advance for your help.

NOTE:  PLEASE REPLY TO WLDWST::IMMEKEPPEL if your have questions.

    

Posted from the WOMANNOTES conference with the author's permission,









================================================================================
Note 1061.0                 environmental NIGHTMARE!!                  6 replies
RANGER::SCHLENER                                     97 lines  11-OCT-1991 13:29
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I got the following news bulletin from my sister who works for the NRDC.
Evidently, there is a new bill coming up for vote this fall (mid to end of
October). It is the National Energy Security Act, S.1220 sponsored by 
Senator J. Bennett Johnston.  This bill would be an ENVIRONMENTAL NIGHTMARE!

My sister wanted me to call/write before Oct 15, so I assume the vote is soon.
The US Capitol Switchboard is (202)224-3121.

 		What this bill would allow
		--------------------------
This bill would allow oil and gas drilling in the Alaskan Arctic National
Wildlife Refuge. This refuge provides (as you can imagine) a great habitat
for grizzlies, wolves, foxes and snow geese - just to name a few. 

This bill also would allow coastal land in Florida, the northeast and elsewhere
to be "reassessed" and potentially made available for leasing (e.g. oil
drilling). Rangeland and desert area, as in North Dakota and California, could
be condemned under "eminent domain" for cross country pipeline.

A "streamlined" nuclear siting and licensing process would require only one
hearing for both construction and operating licenses.

The bill would require us - U.S. taxpayers - to contribute another $20 billion
to the nuclear power industry with no provision to recover any of these costs
from industry.

The bill would encourage the construction of new electric generation facilities
instead of least-cost power planning, energy efficiency and safe renewable 
resources.

The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission would be put in charge of applying
national environmental laws. It would be given the power to override conditions
for hydropower projects that are now set by the Forest Service or National
Marine Fisheries Service to protect fish and wildlife.

Projects less than 5 megawatts (many hydro porjects in Maine and Arizona fall
below this threshold) would be able to bypass federal laws such as the National
Environmental Policy Act and the Endangered Species Act.

This bill would allow existing coal burning power plants to be expanded without
meeting stricter emissions requirements for new plants.

S. 1220 leaves automobile fuel efficiency standards (called CAFE or Corporate
Average Fuel Economy) to the discretion of the same Department of
Transportation that is actively fighting any increase in miles-per-gallon
requirements.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

			WHAT CAN WE DO !!!!!
			--------------


- Call/write your senator/representative

- State that bill S.1220 is a bad energy policy and must be opposed. 

- Urge your senators to support the Bryan-Gorton Motor Vehicle Fuel Efficiency
  Act (S.279) as free-standing legislation. Urge your representative to support
  the Boxer bill (H.R. 446). Both of these bills would increase auto fuel 
  efficiency to at least 40 miles-per-gallon by the year 2001.

- Legislation to protect the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge is pending in
  both houses of Congress. The Morris K. Udall Wilderness Act (H.J.R. 239)
  * call your Representative * and the Arctic Refuge Wilderness Act (S.39) 
  * call your Senator * would permanently designate this incomparable wild 
  area as Wilderness.




PLEASE!!! PLEASE send a letter or call. We need your help. Even if you spend
just 5 - 10 minutes writing a letter will help. Every letter counts!!

Addresses:
	Senator _________
	United States Senate
	Washington, D.C. 20510

	Representative ____________________
	U.S. House of Representatives
	Washington, D.C. 20515


Phone Numbers:

	U.S. Capital Switchboard
	(202) 224-3121


Thank you.
			Cindy Schlener	
 
	

    	I just saw the most stupidest waste of plastic I've ever seen,
    LN03 ! when they do a maintance on these freaks of printers they more
    or less rip the guts out and throw them away !!!!! does anyone know if
    these guts are recyclible (sp!) if not, who the F' thought up this thing ! 
    if they can be recycled where do we send the guts ? sometimes I wonder
    why this company just doesn't suddenly flip over and die a slow painful
    death ! waste of money and such a gross waste of earth......
    
    Chris

    Most copiers and laser printers are designed so that you replace the
    drum and toner as routine maintenance. However there's many companies
    that will take your used drum/toner cartridge and trade it in (plus a
    fee of course) on a new one, which is actually a reconditioned used
    one. I doubt DEC buys from these companies though.
    
    Maybe if they took "cost cutting suggestions" (HAH!!) you could suggest
    that they find one of these companies to exchange LN03 cartridges.
    
    Scott
    

There's a new program office called Corporate Waste Management...
They are chartered (among other things) to ensure that all Product 
Plans contain provisions for return/reuse...the model is likened to 
the oil companies, who must take back any used motor oil they sell you.

You should let them know that the plans for service and spares should
meet the same guidelines.  Contact Karen Salveta at 367-6283.  You are
probably noticing something that others haven't thought of, so it's worth
your time.

By the way, I've heard Digital does recycle plastic skins and housings...
they are crunched and made into shingles.  Urban myth?  But there's no
excuse for the amount of stuff that gets thrown out when you maintain the
LN03.  Obviously, if it's tossed out it's not getting recycled.
					--djc--

RE:       <<< Note 96.96 by MSHRMS::FIELDS "send a smile, show you care" >>>
                                -< Im so mad ! >-



	From Digital Today, Vol II, issue 36, 21-Oct-91...

	"? DELTA Did you know?

	LN03 Maintenance

	When the warning light comes on, indicating the need for maintenance
on an LN03 printer, you can make 2000 to 3000 copies more before the copy 
lightens to an unacceptable level.
	When Lori Benoit of Customer Support at Deerfield Beach, Fla., noticed 
this, she suggested the following:
	Remove the development drawer that holds the OPC (organic photo 
conductor) cartridge.
	Inside, to the upper left, ther's a silver pin theat extends about an 
inch. By pushing the pin in, the warning light goes out.
	People who then go to use the printer wont be worried that it's not 
functioning properly.
	Alternatively, you could leave the light on and continue to make 
copies. Either way, printer use is extended between the LN03 maintenance kit 
installations, which saves money.
	Lori has another tip for when you see a white, vertical streak down the 
text of your LN03 output page. "rather than replacing the expensive development 
drawer, which is what most people do," she says, "just use a toner vacuum."
	This device, which cleans the roller and ensures evenly dispersed 
toner, is available form your local Customer Serice Engineer.
	To submit an idea or implement one, call the DELTA program office at 
DTN 276-8226 or (508) 496-8226. Or send a message electronically to:
	Idead Central @OGO, or SONATA::IDEASCENTRAL, or through internet at
delta@intenz.ogo.dec.com."

    
    Talk about synchronicity!
    
    A few of us were discussing LNO3 waste the other day.  My friend Trudy
    read an article somewhere about reusable/regenerative toner cartridges. 
    She sent the info off to DELTA but has yet to hear anything.  Which
    isn't exactly surprising since I don't know anyone in this office who's
    ever received a reply from DELTA other than the form letter that lets
    you know they received your email.
    
    Phyllis_in_a_DEC_office_that_recycles_NOTHING
    
    
    

    One of my former housemates is a partner in a small company that not
    only recycles their toner cartridges, they reink their printer ribbons
    too. The reinker cost some trivial sum (maybe $30 if that much), and it
    takes just a few squirts of ink to do a full ribbon. They can get about
    6 reinkings from a ribbon before it wears out, and it takes maybe 20
    minutes for it to run through the machine, which is not much more than
    a low-geared motor and inking wheel.
    
    If anyone has printers at home and wants to get one of these
    contraptions, I can get more info.
    
    Scott
    

	***************  Bulletin  *****************
My sister, Denise Schlener, just called up (10/31/91). There's a filibuster 
going on right now on the senate floor regarding the following bill. The only 
way to kill the bill, is to allow the filibuster to continue. Unfortunately,
there is going to be a vote tomorrow on whether to allow the filibuster to
continue. If the filibuster is stopped, the bill passes. So if you are
against this bill (hence, for saving the environment), please call your
senators tonight or tomorrow morning and urge them to allow the filibuster
to continue. 
			Cindy

P.S. If you can't call, you can always send a telegram.

        ********************************************


I got the following news bulletin from my sister who works for the NRDC.
Evidently, there is a new bill coming up for vote this fall (mid to end of
October). It is the National Energy Security Act, S.1220 sponsored by 
Senator J. Bennett Johnston.  This bill would be an ENVIRONMENTAL NIGHTMARE!

My sister wanted me to call/write before Oct 15, so I assume the vote is soon.
The US Capitol Switchboard is (202)224-3121.

 		What this bill would allow
		--------------------------
This bill would allow oil and gas drilling in the Alaskan Arctic National
Wildlife Refuge. This refuge provides (as you can imagine) a great habitat
for grizzlies, wolves, foxes and snow geese - just to name a few. 

This bill also would allow coastal land in Florida, the northeast and elsewhere
to be "reassessed" and potentially made available for leasing (e.g. oil
drilling). Rangeland and desert area, as in North Dakota and California, could
be condemned under "eminent domain" for cross country pipeline.

A "streamlined" nuclear siting and licensing process would require only one
hearing for both construction and operating licenses.

The bill would require us - U.S. taxpayers - to contribute another $20 billion
to the nuclear power industry with no provision to recover any of these costs
from industry.

The bill would encourage the construction of new electric generation facilities
instead of least-cost power planning, energy efficiency and safe renewable 
resources.

The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission would be put in charge of applying
national environmental laws. It would be given the power to override conditions
for hydropower projects that are now set by the Forest Service or National
Marine Fisheries Service to protect fish and wildlife.

Projects less than 5 megawatts (many hydro porjects in Maine and Arizona fall
below this threshold) would be able to bypass federal laws such as the National
Environmental Policy Act and the Endangered Species Act.

This bill would allow existing coal burning power plants to be expanded without
meeting stricter emissions requirements for new plants.

S. 1220 leaves automobile fuel efficiency standards (called CAFE or Corporate
Average Fuel Economy) to the discretion of the same Department of
Transportation that is actively fighting any increase in miles-per-gallon
requirements.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

			WHAT CAN WE DO !!!!!
			--------------


- Call/write your senator/representative

- State that bill S.1220 is a bad energy policy and must be opposed. 

- Urge your senators to support the Bryan-Gorton Motor Vehicle Fuel Efficiency
  Act (S.279) as free-standing legislation. Urge your representative to support
  the Boxer bill (H.R. 446). Both of these bills would increase auto fuel 
  efficiency to at least 40 miles-per-gallon by the year 2001.

- Legislation to protect the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge is pending in
  both houses of Congress. The Morris K. Udall Wilderness Act (H.J.R. 239)
  * call your Representative * and the Arctic Refuge Wilderness Act (S.39) 
  * call your Senator * would permanently designate this incomparable wild 
  area as Wilderness.




PLEASE!!! PLEASE send a letter or call. We need your help. Even if you spend
just 5 - 10 minutes writing a letter will help. Every letter counts!!

Addresses:
	Senator _________
	United States Senate
	Washington, D.C. 20510

	Representative ____________________
	U.S. House of Representatives
	Washington, D.C. 20515


Phone Numbers:

	U.S. Capital Switchboard
	(202) 224-3121


Thank you.
			Cindy Schlener	
 
	

I called, both senators from MA are against this bill.  Neither office (or at 
least the people I spoke with) new the status of any filibuster.

Scott

RE:         <<< Note 96.103 by MR4DEC::WENTZELL "Close my eyes to see" >>>

>I called, both senators from MA are against this bill.  Neither office (or at 
>least the people I spoke with) new the status of any filibuster.

Great. Now call back and tell 'em your from Utah.

	A bit-o-backround...

This Bill was introduced in shortly after the Iraq "Situation" started to
unfold. The White House, the auto & gas lobbies, and other special interest
groups all collaborated on putting together this bill as a pre-emptive strike
on any potential bill to establish a progressive environmental policy.
Basically, special interests have taken advantage of the fact that the U.S. was
in the middle of an "oil War: to turn a National Environmental Policy into "The
National Energy Security Policy". 

	Its all PR riding on a wave of patriotism and percieved threats to the
"Truth, Justice, and the American Way". 

The worst ramifications of this Bill passing are not in the spoiling of the 
Alaska frontier or in the completely irresponsible policy of allowing the 
buying and selling of the privelege to emit pollution; the biggest disaster 
would be in Nuclear Policy reform.  If this bill were to pass, the licencing, 
review, and regulation of future and existing nuclear power plants would occur
WITHOUT Citizen participation on committees, BEHIND CLOSED doors to public 
scrutiny, and only regulatory agency responsible for assuring the saftey of 
these plants would be the pro-industry NRC, whose track record in the last 40
or so years has been flat out abominable.

disclaimer: its all my humble opinion.

    Don't worry if it passes ... after the elections there will be a whole
    new crop of legislators and they'll clean up the system and reverse all 
    this nonsense.

I'm not an expert on the procedures that go on in the Senate, but they were 
kicking this thing around last night.  I watched C-SPAN for a while (as long
as I could stomach all of the "my distinguished colleague", the Gentleman from
blah blah blah, etc stuff)...One guy (a Senator from Minnesota who's name I
wrote down but forgot to bring today) made a beautiful speech in opposition to
this bill...I was really impressed by this guy who IMO had his head in the
right place..unfortunately I s'pose most of his distinguished colleagues 
probably thought he was an envioronmental crazy radical nut and blew him off.


This is, from what I can see, a very dangerous bill.





Jim

    Mary,
    
    	Thats true,. that things cna get reversed and all,.. and its
    also true that worrying is useless,... but we should still try
    to stop this now while it still hasn't been passed,.. although
    I think they are voting today.. 
    
    	Anyway,.. I hope you agree that the effort should still be made.
    It will be one less thing we have to "undo" ... and there's already
    plent to undo I would say.
    
    							/Bill
    

    Oh sure... yes indeed reverse it if possible.
    
    And I'm also quite sure that (at least) one particular senator from
    Minnesotta will be re-elected.
    
    I just ment to say that the tide is turning... thats all.

    Mary
    
    	Or anybody else...
    
    	Abiout the tide is turning,..
    
    	Well,. let me just ask,. does aqnybody get/read "Mondo" magazine
    out there?
    
    								/
    

re:        <<< Note 96.106 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Got up and wandered..." >>>
    
    >unfortunately I s'pose most of his distinguished colleagues probably
    >thought he was an envioronmental crazy radical nut and blew him off.
    
    If the C-SPAN camera had shown a wide angle shot, you probably
    would've seen that all his distinguished colleagues were out doing
    something more important.  Most of the speeches are made to an empty
    chamber just to get them into the Congressional Record.
    
    This bill will probably get killed in the House anyway.
    
    Jamie

RE:    Jamie
    
>    This bill will probably get killed in the House anyway.
    
	I couldda sworn that this bill was introduced in the House and slid 
through during the Iraq War.

	Or am I really ignorant on congressional procedures?

fog

RE:             <<< Note 96.110 by STUDIO::IDE "now it can be told" >>>

    
    
>    If the C-SPAN camera had shown a wide angle shot, you probably
>    would've seen that all his distinguished colleagues were out doing
 
     I thought about that when his speech was over..I was hoping the camera
     would show the chamber to see who was there, but it didn't...





 Jim 



   

re                <<< Note 96.104 by SPICE::PECKAR "Hail Baby!" >>>

>in the middle of an "oil War: to turn a National Environmental Policy into "The
>National Energy Security Policy". 

But gee ... it wasn't an oil war ... it was a war to Liberate Kuwait ...
wasn't it?

Yeah, let's start building a whole new bunch of nuclear power plants.  Here
are my suggested locations for the first two: #1 right outside the White
House, and #2 in Kennebunkport, Maine.

    :-) ...good one, Dave... but Mother Nature has already put that
    particular area of Maine in the wash... she is certainly making 
    statements these days... synchronicity, dude :-)
    
    re /
    
    No, I've never heard of it.  Is it good?

    well... Mondo is very interesting,.. Good,... I dunno,. thats a value
    judgement that I shay away from making after having only read 1/2 of
    one issue.///
    
    	But there are a lot of "letters to the Editor" (who calls himself
    R. U. Sirius :-) that agree with you Mary about the tide is changing.
    I know the tide needs to change,.. and I want it to change,. and I will
    help to change it,.. but these folks in there feel as though the
    changes are way ahead already of where I think we are. Personally,
    I believe we are reaching the cusp of the conservaitve wave,...
    and the conservatives themselves are isolating themselves far enough
    away form reality and the "public" that they will soon be revolted
    against. However,... I do not feel that this revolt has really started
    yet,.. as a lot of Mondo readers seem to believe..
    
    	Anyway,.. its worth a reading if you come across it. Its
    a very futuristic look at whats going on today in various fields
    of science that will bring the pipe dreams of the future (artifical
    life for example) to us and when...
    
    									/
    

    sounds interesting /

When coming home from Logan airport, I was not used to seeing these huge
pieces of iron on the road.  Everyone in Ireland pretty much drives a small
4 cylinder car, 1.1 liter->2.0 liter engines, which get great mileage.

I was thinking that if the US mandated tough MPG standards, we'd save SOOOOO
much gas!!!  This is the type of legislature that needs to pass, or, the
States should increase the gas tax by 1.00/gallon.

    JC - the problem in this country is that most people don't WANT to
    reduce our reliance on oil.  And the government is making it easy for
    us all to adopt a lifestyle where it is difficult to do so.  Our
    leaders want us to consume more ... not less ... because they see it as
    a way to get us out of a sluggish economy.
    
    FWIW - I don't believe this country's government will address any
    environmental issues seriously until such time as the corporations that
    control our economy figure out a way to make money out of it ... at our
    (the taxpayer's) expense.  I watched the Bush speech down in Houston
    the other day, and it was truly disgusting that Americans can't seem
    to see thru his vaneer of bullshit.  He's using the country's economy
    ... the economy that has been basically destroyed as a result of eight
    years of "Reaganomics" ... as an excuse to dismantle what few
    environmental controls still remain after Reagan got done with them.
    His reasoning ... we need jobs more than we need wilderness area and
    environmental safeguards.  He openly disputes the environmentalists,
    claiming they don't know what they're talking about.  And the majority
    of people in America *believe* his bullshit.
    
    Mr. Bush's logic is plain and simple ... the more we consume the more
    jobs we create.  And for him jobs mean votes.  The environment is the
    problems of those who are currently too young to vote.
    
    And the real problem is that there are too many Americans who *agree*
    with his logic ... as long as that fact continues, I don't see us
    really trying too hard to solve the environment problems we continue to
    create as a result of our American way of life.
    
    ... Bob

    re:            <<< Note 96.111 by SPICE::PECKAR "Hail Baby!" >>>
    
>>    This bill will probably get killed in the House anyway.
    
>	I couldda sworn that this bill was introduced in the House and slid 
>through during the Iraq War.

    The filibuster worked; the bill is dead, for now.  Since I can't find
    where I read that the House would kill it, there's a fair probability
    that I made it up.
    
>	Or am I really ignorant on congressional procedures?
    
    I think the confusion comes in because (I think) the "drilling in
    Alaska" provision has been tacked onto several different bills.  If at
    first you don't succeed . . .
    
    Jamie

    >The filibuster worked; the bill is dead, for now.  Since I can't find
    >where I read that the House would kill it, there's a fair probability
    >that I made it up.
    
Good news!

Anybody see 60 minutes last night?  They had a story about a man who is a 
"whistle blower" on Alyeska, the company that runs the Alaskan pipeline.  Seems 
that this one individual, together with sources in Alyeska who want to see the 
right thing done and send him information secretly, has been turning evidence 
over to the gubmit that several pumping stations have been emitting huge levels
of pollution and that the pipeline itself is corroding and they will have to 
replace almost every section.  It has cost Alyeska in the tens of millions of 
dollars already and will cost in the hundreds of millions more to correct the 
problems.  All because of one guy, working out of his house.  And who says an 
individual can't make a difference.

Scott

    Yeah, but according to Bush the Alaska pipeline is a huge success, it
    doesn't present any environmental problems ... he's painting a picture
    of happiness and prosperity as a result of the pipeline and using it as
    an example of why it would be OK to drill for oil in the wilderness.
    
    To roughly quote him "The environmentalists told us that when the 
    Alaska pipeline went in the caribou would become an endangered species.
    Well the pipeline's in, and the caribou are breeding happily.  The
    pipeline isn't the environmental disaster they told us it would be.
    It provides jobs for Alaska and energy for America."
    
    This was all in his speech last Thursday ... and (unfortunately) more
    people are gonna believe him than they will some guy who works out of
    his house ... because this is what most Americans want to hear.
    
    As Paul Simon put it "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards
    the rest".
    
    ... Bob
    

    
    Bob,
    
    It doesn't matter what he says.  The economy is so bad that he hasn't
    a chance of getting reelected.  His days are numbered and with them 
    his opportunities for doing further damage are also numbered.  It isn't
    too late to contain and reverse the damage.
    
    Mary
    
    	"Abraham and Isaac sitting on a fence
    	 get right to work if they had any sense
    	 you know the one thing we need is a left hand monkey wrench"
    
         :-)

re Mary

>he hasn't
>    a chance of getting reelected.  

Oh oh ... hey Mary, want to propose another bet?  ;^)

    I have to disagree with you Mary ... all the "experts" are saying Bush
    is a shoe-in next year, and I believe them.  Not because I like the guy
    ... I happen to believe he's a pathalogical liar, and that his policies
    are very bad for most Americans.  But there ain't a Democrat in sight
    that has the political clout to even seriously challenge the guy.  And
    I can't believe that any 3rd party candidate will carry even one state
    in a national election.
    
    Bush is an expert at obfiscating the issues and causing people to focus
    on inconsequential things ... like flag-burning.  He's also an expert
    at placing the blame for his own failures squarely on the shoulders of
    someone else.  If you would have listened to his speech, he made
    Congress the scapegoat for the economy ... even though anybody who
    knows anything about it will admit it's nothing more than the backlash
    from "trickle-down".  He made it sound like he's been championing
    programs to get the economy stimulated, but the "politicians" in
    Congress were not doing their jobs ... this is only half-true of course.
    
    I predict that he will not only get re-elected, but it will be by a
    very wide margin ... unfortunately.
    
    ... Bob
    

I don't think people will rank the economy highly enough as an issue (enough
to not re-elect Bush) until it has a major impact on their personal lives,
and I don't think it'll get to that until after the election.  In the meantime,
people will still vote for Bush for all the reasons Bobbbb mentioned, plus
he was our glorious leader in the casualty-less Gulf War, etc.

- Dave

...The american electorate has a very short memory.  Bush might lose
the election if it was today (assuming there was a legitimate alternative), but
the election isn't for twelve months.  Look for him to pull a "quick
fix" of the economy next August, in time for rosy news next October.
I don't expect him to do anything positive for the next ten months, 
as he tries to avoid "peaking too soon."

On a less cynical note, the news out of Kuwait is that
there are now only four more  oil-well fires burning.   There is going
to be a big ceremony on Wednesday, with the Emir himself putting out
the final fire.

I was pleasantly surprised to hear this on CNN last night, because I recall
estimates last March ranging up to 3 years for putting out all the fires.
						--djc--

>
>On a less cynical note, the news out of Kuwait is that
>there are now only four more  oil-well fires burning.   There is going
>to be a big ceremony on Wednesday, with the Emir himself putting out
>the final fire.


I think this should go on the more cynical note. I heard last night on CNN 
that they are going to relight one of the fires that was put out so that the 
Amir could put it out.:-(


GEoff

re       <<< Note 96.118 by BOOKS::BAILEYB "Let my inspiration flow ..." >>>
                  -< we have met the enemy and it is us ... >-

>    JC - the problem in this country is that most people don't WANT to
>    reduce our reliance on oil.  And the government is making it easy for
>    us all to adopt a lifestyle where it is difficult to do so.  Our
>    leaders want us to consume more ... not less ... because they see it as
>    a way to get us out of a sluggish economy.
 
Oh, I see this, and I've seen it for long while.  I'm from Massachusetts and 
we have 2 items that fall in this category nicely, IMO:

	- New Airport
	- New Tunnel

Both expensive, both designed to bail Mass out of the economic slump, both
at the expense of the environment (especially the airport) & taxpayers.  Do
we need 'em?  I say no!  Make people wait.  Make people choose public trans.
before driving to Boston.

re: Mary

I sure hope you're right about Bush falling hard.  I will not vote for him
and I will do everything I can to sway my friends from voting for this man.
1992 is the time to dump the mess Reagan & Bush have created.

It is almost time to get a daily newspaper subscription to follow the election
crap.

RE:  <<< Note 96.127 by AIMHI::KELLER "The BoR, Void Where Prohibited by law" >>>



>I think this should go on the more cynical note. I heard last night on CNN 
>that they are going to relight one of the fires that was put out so that the 
>Amir could put it out.:-(


 Must be the idea of some American election campaign manager types..looks good
on the 6 o'clock news :^/

BOOKS::BAILEYB 
    
    Really, Bob?  Well... who knows... (the shadow knows) :-)
    
    >If you would have listened to his speech, he made
    >Congress the scapegoat for the economy ... even though anybody who
    >knows anything about it will admit it's nothing more than the backlash
    >from "trickle-down".  He made it sound like he's been championing
    >programs to get the economy stimulated, but the "politicians" in
    >Congress were not doing their jobs ... this is only half-true of course.
    
    Oh well... I think that there is a bullshit level and once that level
    is reached .. any additional bs becomes ineffectual.  People are
    disgusted and numb and sick and tired and all they want is change.  At
    least... thats how it seems to me.
    
    I wouldn't be surprised if all of the incumbents get the shaft ... and
    that includes Bush.
    
    You win... I owe you a beer... I win.. you owe me one, agreed? :-)    
    
VMPIRE::CLARK 
    
>I don't think people will rank the economy highly enough as an issue (enough
>to not re-elect Bush) until it has a major impact on their personal lives,
>and I don't think it'll get to that until after the election.  In the meantime,
>people will still vote for Bush for all the reasons Bobbbb mentioned, plus
>he was our glorious leader in the casualty-less Gulf War, etc.

Ohhhhh Dave... nothing moves the middle class like the threat of poverty. :-)  
    Glorious leaders dim fast when the banks start folding.
    But.... time will tell, time will tell... :-)
    
MILPND::CROWLEY 
    
    >Look for him to pull a "quick fix" of the economy next August, in time for 
    >rosy news next October.

    A "quick fix"? :-)  Oh man.... it would be easier to change water into
    wine or replicate loves of bread and fishes. :-)  I don't know, guys...
    I think you might be wrong on this one... 
    
    
BIODTL::FERGUSON 

>It is almost time to get a daily newspaper subscription to follow the election
>crap.
    
    (shudder)... you're a braver person than I am...  I tend to avoid that
    stuff like the plague.. 
    
    mary

    I have a sort of informal bet with a friend that the Democratic
    candidate in '92 won't get more than 100 electoral votes.
    
    I hope I lose the bet.
    
    I don't think I'll be able to face election night '92 without whiskey.
    
    John

re                      <<< Note 96.131 by DECWET::HAMBY >>>
                            -< Already I dread it >-

>    I don't think I'll be able to face election night '92 without whiskey.
                                                                   ^^^^^^^

	That'll be Guinness for me!


	:-)

There was a really interesting article in the Boston Globe yesterday on one way 
the rainforests are being protected.  It seems that they can be used as living 
laboratories for finding cures for disease.  There are so many kinds of insects 
and plant life indigenous(sp) to the rainforest that may provide cures to 
disease that companies are willing pay to make sure the forests are left 
intact.  I meant to bring in the article and type it in at lunch but I forgot 
it.  Anyone else see this?

Scott

    Yes... and it's such a good idea.  I've long thought that was the best
    way to protect them... to have the big pharmecetical companies buy
    them up and protect them.

>  <<< Note 96.132 by ZENDIA::FERGUSON "Where talk is cheap and vision true" >>>
>                             -< could not resist! >-
>
>re                      <<< Note 96.131 by DECWET::HAMBY >>>
>                            -< Already I dread it >-
>
>>    I don't think I'll be able to face election night '92 without whiskey.
>                                                                   ^^^^^^^
>
>	That'll be Guinness for me!
>
>
>	:-)

    Well, at least THEN you'll have something to look forward to!
    
    tim
    

>          <<< Note 96.133 by 21752::WENTZELL "Close my eyes to see" >>>
>                            -< Rainforest research >-
>
>There was a really interesting article in the Boston Globe yesterday on one way 
>the rainforests are being protected.  It seems that they can be used as living 
>laboratories for finding cures for disease.  There are so many kinds of insects 
>and plant life indigenous(sp) to the rainforest that may provide cures to 
>disease that companies are willing pay to make sure the forests are left 
>intact.  I meant to bring in the article and type it in at lunch but I forgot 
>it.  Anyone else see this?
>
>Scott
    
    I seen similar documentaries.  On one of them, a native "doctor" was
    kinda interviewed.  They said he knew how to cure things with
    rainforest life that us "civilized" people don't even know how to cure.
    
    Some are hoping they'll find cures for cancer in rainforest.
    
    dave

    Ah yes... but a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.. :-)

I really didn't like the name "chemical prospecting" either, sounds menacing to 
me.  As I read it, one of the big issues is that as this has been done in the 
past the local nation where the rainforest is located has never gotten a thing 
out of it economically.  Now I guess this is starting to change as the largest 
pharmasutical company in the world  (don't remember the name) has finally made 
one of these deals that will protect the rainforest and share any generated 
wealth with the host country.  This makes all the difference because in the 
past these nations have found it more more profitable to simply sell the 
rainforest to companies who would raze it.  If I can remember to bring the 
article in I'll type it in here if there is interest.

The reason I like the idea is because it provides and economic incentive (viewed
as very important by poorer, underdeveloped nations) to preserve, not destroy, 
the rainforest.

Scott

re                       <<< Note 96.136 by SPOCK::IRONS >>>
                             -< Digressing a bit >-

>    Some are hoping they'll find cures for cancer in rainforest.


Haven't they found the bark of some tree quite effective in curing some dreadful
desease?  I occasionally read/see stories about folks stripping a certain kind
of tree of its bark, then selling the bark to Company XYZ for big $$$.  The
end result: the tree will eventually become extinct.

From:	MPGS::ADMIN "16-Dec-1991 1614" 16-DEC-1991 21:35:49.58
To:	@SHRSITE
CC:	ADMIN
Subj:	SITE RECYCLE MESSAGE TO ALL TENANTS





Starting today, Monday, 12/16/91, we, at the SHR Site will not put the 
following materials in the trash compactor:

			WOODEN SKIDS
			CLEAN CARDBOARD
			DIGITAL LNO3 TONER CARTRIDGE KITS
		

All of the above materials will be packaged on skids in D Containers by our
Custodians and sent to a Digital Facility for recycling.

If anyone has any questions or problems, please contact a custodian or call
extension #3592.

Thank You. 

[headers removed]

    Please communicate the attached message (subscriber bulletin) via
    electronic mail to all tenants in Massachusetts and New Hampshire
    facilities.


    Regards,

    David M. Costanzo
    Commuter Transportation Manager

        




           DIGITAL ADDRESSES TRAFFIC IMPACT WITH LOCAL COMMUNITIES
            

Digital Equipment Corporation is currently participating in a Transportation 
Management Association (TMA) with the Marlboro Chamber of Commerce and Caravan 
for Commuters Inc., a Massachusetts Transportation Organization, to establish an
employer based commuter transportation network.  The objective of this network 
is to increase ridesharing among employers and to encourage use of flexible work 
hours to reduce peak hour traffic along the I-495 and Route 20 corridor.

Effective January 2, 1992, the Digital Commuter Transportation Department will
facilitate the matching of individuals who wish to participate in CARPOOLS with 
other employers in the area.  VANPOOLS will continue to operate for the 
convenience of our employees and therefore are restricted to Digital. 
   
To learn more about your commuting options, simply access the Corporate VTX
Library under Employee Benefits and Resources.  Select option #4 of the Employee 
Benefits and Resources menu or use the keyword ... COMMUTING to access the 
Commuter Transportation - U.S. Infobase.  The Eastern Area Infobase currently 
covers Massachusetts and New Hampshire Area.

Direct access from your PC provides you with RideSource ... a vehicle to find 
other employees in your area interested in sharing the ride.

If you're interested in alternative means of transportation, join the RideSource 
Network to make contact with Carpools in your area to and from the work site.  
In just a few days you'll receive a free transportation matchlist detailing all
your options.  Your list will include the names and telephone numbers of other 
commuters; just call them to set up your own Car-pool. 

So don't delay, complete your RideSource Registration today!   

                      


                           R i d e S o u r c e


                 The Digital Transportation Matching Network 



Digital Equipment Corporation is currently participating in a Transportation 
Management Association (TMA) with the Marlboro Chamber of Commerce and Caravan 
for Commuters Inc., to establish an employer based commuter transportation 
network.  The intent of this network is to increase ridesharing among employers  
and to encourage use of flexible work hours to reduce peak hour traffic along 
the I-495 and route 20 corridor.

Join the RideSource Network to get in contact with commuters and Car-pools  
in your area.  By completing the registration card, your name along
with other registration information will be put in our database to match you 
with other subscribers who share your commute.  In just a few days, you'll 
receive a free transportation matchlist detailing all your options.  Your list 
will include the names and telephone numbers of other commuters; just call them 
to set up your own Car-pool.

The above information mentioned will remain in our database for six (6) months 
so that others may contact you in the same manner.

Upon receipt of your registration card, your name will be placed in Digital's 
database for matching with other commuters from your area.  You will also be 
registered with RideSource for six (6) months.  During that time your name and 
work trip information will be given to other participants who may call you about 
commuting together.

Participation in RideSource is voluntary and Digitals sole responsibility in the 
program is limited to facilitating the matching of individuals who wish to 
participate.  Your signature below indicates that you understand this provision 
and will abide by the guidelines and requirements of RideSource.




________________________________   /    /    _______________________________
         SIGNATURE:                 DATE                PRINT NAME: 



                             R i d e S o u r c e

                            ~ Registration Card ~

                         
                              
         P L E A S E    P R I N T    A L L    I N F O R M A T I O N
 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

NAME
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           (Last)               (First)                       (Date)


CITY/TOWN ____________________________ STATE _____________ ZIP CODE ___________

CONTACT NUMBERS:                      MAILING ADDRESS: 

================================================================================
DIGITAL PARTICIPANTS:

DTN _______ - ___________              MAIL CODE ______________________________ 
                                                 (SITE - BLD - FL. - MAIL STOP)
ELECTRONIC MAIL ADDRESS:

                           @     
ALL-IN-1 _______________________________ VAX MAIL ___________ :: _______________
         ( FIRST/LAST NAME SITE CODE              (NODE NAME)      (LAST NAME)

================================================================================

ALL PARTICIPANTS

TRAVEL INFORMATION:

Round Trip Mileage _____________    
                     (MILES)

Begin Work _____________________ # Minutes Flexible _____________

Leave Work _____________________ # Minutes Flexible _____________

Present Form of Transportation To Work ________________________________________

_______________________________________________________________________________
Please check the categories of interest:
                                                ______ Ride only/Car-pool
   ______ Driver only/Car-pool
                                                ______ Share driving

RETURN ADDRESS: COMM_TRANS @NRO or NEST::COMM_TRANS or INTEROFFICE CTD NRO2-2/A1







To Distribution List:

APONTE@DUGGAN@VAXMAIL,
ARMSTRONG@MCIS2@VAXMAIL,
BARTHELMES@MCIS2@VAXMAIL,
BASSO@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
JAD BOVAIRD@NRO,
BRADSHAW@NUGGET@VAXMAIL,
BROGIE@NUGGET@VAXMAIL,
BRUNING@FRICK@VAXMAIL,
JANICE BRUNO@MRO,
MORRISON BUMP@MRO,
CARLSON@MCIS1@VAXMAIL,
CASERTA@MCIS2@VAXMAIL,
CAVANAGH@NUGGET@VAXMAIL,
ANNE CHAOUSIS@MRO,
JEANNE CHARBONNEAU@DLB,
CHWALEK@NUGGET@VAXMAIL,
JENNY CIAMPAGLIA@NRO,
CLEMENCE@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
COMFORT_COLE@MR4DEC@VAXMAIL,
COSMO@CIMNET@VAXMAIL,
CSMITH@MCIS2@VAXMAIL,
CURRAN@MCIS2@VAXMAIL,
CDAVIS@DLNVAX@VAXMAIL,
DHAYES@BUSY@VAXMAIL,
DUMAS@NUGGET@VAXMAIL,
EOLSEN@MCIS1@VAXMAIL,
ERTEL@NUGGET@VAXMAIL,
FALCO@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
FANDEL@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
DONNA FERRO@MRO,
BETSY FITTER@MRO,
FORD@MCIS1@VAXMAIL,
FOSKO@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
GABEL@MCIS1@VAXMAIL,
ISABEL GADWAH@MRO,
GALLERANI@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
GARDINER@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
HONEY GIBBONS@NRO,
GIROUARD@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
HAKALA@MCIS1@VAXMAIL,
PETER HEARD@MRO,
PETER HOWATT@MRO,
DENISE HURLEY@MRO,
HUTCHINSON@MCIS2@VAXMAIL,
GENEVA JAMES@MET,
JDIPASQUALE@HYPER@VAXMAIL,
JENSEN@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
JOHNSON@STEPS1@VAXMAIL,
JOHNSON@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
J_KELLY@BUSY@VAXMAIL,
KEATON@DUGGAN@VAXMAIL,
JIM KELLEHER@MRO,
KILGORE@MCIS2@VAXMAIL,
KILGOUR@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
KMIKLAVIC@MCIS1@VAXMAIL,
KNEELAND@NUGGET@VAXMAIL,
KRAUSE@MCIS2@VAXMAIL,
LACKOVIC@NUGGET@VAXMAIL,
ANNALISA LAFFERTY@MRO,
LAMPEDECCHIO@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
LAVALLEE@CHIPS@VAXMAIL,
LCAVANAGH@MCIS1@VAXMAIL,
LEBLANC@LMOADM@VAXMAIL,
MARTHA LENARD@NRO,
MAUREEN LETENDRE@MRO,
LEVANTI@MCIS1@VAXMAIL,
DICK MACDONOUGH@NRO,
RUTH MACK@MRO,
MAJOCHA@CRBOSS@VAXMAIL,
MALCOLMSON@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
MANN@MCIS1@VAXMAIL,
MARONEY@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
MARSHALL@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
MARSHALL@NUGGET@VAXMAIL,
MARSTON@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
MARTIS@MCIS2@VAXMAIL,
MCAULIFFE@NUGGET@VAXMAIL,
MCDOUGALL@NUGGET@VAXMAIL,
MENARD@JUPITR@VAXMAIL,
MICHELS@MCIS1@VAXMAIL,
MIKELIS@CRBOSS@VAXMAIL,
MITCHELL@CRBOSS@VAXMAIL,
MKENNEDY@MCIS2@VAXMAIL,
MLETENDRE@HYEND@VAXMAIL,
MMINNICK@HYEND@VAXMAIL,
MOFFITT@CIVIC@VAXMAIL,
TRUDY MOISAN@MRO,
BARBARA NELSON@MRO,
NEWMERZYCKYJ@GOLF@VAXMAIL,
NEWTON@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
OBIN@MCIS2@VAXMAIL,
OBRIEN@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
OBRIEN@DLNVAX@VAXMAIL,
ODAY@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
PALMER@DLNVAX@VAXMAIL,
PERLMUTTER@STEPS1@VAXMAIL,
PMASON@BUSY@VAXMAIL,
POWELL@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
PPARKER@MCIS1@VAXMAIL,
RACINE@MCIS2@VAXMAIL,
RAK@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
REGAN@MCIS2@VAXMAIL,
REHILL@DLNVAX@VAXMAIL,
RMAYHEW@FSOA@VAXMAIL,
ROMANOWICZ@NUGGET@VAXMAIL,
SACCO@MCIS1@VAXMAIL,
SARKISIAN@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
SAVELLE@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
SCHILTON@HYEND@VAXMAIL,
SEMIENKO@CURIE@VAXMAIL,
SETERA@MCIS2@VAXMAIL,
SHEPARD@MCIS2@VAXMAIL,
SHORETTE@RUTLND@VAXMAIL,
MARY SKILLING@MRO,
SMADAIO@FSOA@VAXMAIL,
SPENCER@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
SSHANNON@HYEND@VAXMAIL,
TAFRESHI@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
ROSALIE TAMASY@MRO,
TAYLOR@CRBOSS@VAXMAIL,
TAYLOR@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
PAMELA TAYLOR@SHR,
TETRO@OBSESS@VAXMAIL,
THEDFORD@DUGGAN@VAXMAIL,
THOMAS@SENIOR@VAXMAIL,
TUBMAN@BUSY@VAXMAIL,
TWILLIAMS@USCTR1@VAXMAIL,
VANARIA@MCIS2@VAXMAIL,
PAULINE WARREN@MRO,
JERRY WEST @MRO,
WILLIAMS@NUGGET@VAXMAIL,
WILSON@NUGGET@VAXMAIL,
WILSONJ@GOLF@VAXMAIL,
WOFFENDEN@CRBOSS@VAXMAIL,
YOUNG@AIADM@VAXMAIL,
FRED ZERGER@MRO,
BASTARACHE@MCIS2@VAXMAIL,
CASIANO@NUGGET@VAXMAIL,
JAKAITIS@NUGGET@VAXMAIL,
MAURO@MCIS1@VAXMAIL,
MCARTHUR@MCIS2@VAXMAIL

This is in reference to something Jamie posted last week regarding Northboro's
curbside recycling program and him being SOOL.

Curbside recycling programs are great however if you are an apartment dweller
chances are the program does not apply to you (slight digression; even 
apartments can get curbside pickup with the approval of the landlord).
However, if you do not have approval - or are still waiting for it to be
set up I would suggest contacting your local Town Hall to find out if there
is a recycling center open to residents of your town (they are not typically
public to anyone).  If this is not available don't worry ... there are 3
public recycling centers in Worcester.  One is at the Greendale Mall open
on weekends only taking aluminum, glass and corrugated cardboard; a
cumberland farms nearby accepts plastic and white paper (I believe) and the
third escapes me at the moment.  Anyone wanting this information let me know
and I'll post it all tomorrow.

If you aren't in the Worcester area still contact your Town Hall - the people
that tell you whether or not your town can offer you anything are the same
people who can tell you the nearest public recycling centers should you need.

Lisa

    Any ideas about recycling used motor oil?
    
    I've herd tht selected Exxon stations now do this.
    If so, I might even start buying Exxon gas again.
    
    /bruce

    
    Yeah, they sell it as coffee...
    
    |^P

re:            <<< Note 96.144 by ZENDIA::LARU "Goin' to Graceland" >>>

>    Any ideas about recycling used motor oil?
    
	I thought that you could return used oil to the place where	
	you purchased the new oil.  Don't know if that has changed...
	or what that means if you bought the oil at a Cumberland Farms
	or something.

	The dump in my town has a recycling tank to pour used oil.
	I could also take it to a local garage/body shop/junkyard where 
	they use used oil for heat.

	Some gas stations will take it too.

	Ken

    Don't know if they exist back east, but out here there is an auto parts
    chain store called Kragan's.  They've advertised that they'll take used
    oil if you bring it in to them.  Don't know if they actually recycle
    it, though, or if it's just a gimmick to bring people into the store.
    
    j

Exxon's been advertising that they'll take used oil, no receipts required.
What a fine, environmentally minded firm they are               not

Anyway, many recycling centers, like the one in Nashua, also take the oil.

jeff

    
    The Town garage in West Boylston, MA (down near the reservoir) has a
    reclaimation tank that they open to the general public...all they ask
    is you follow the rules on what NOT to put in the tank...i guess until
    some joker puts garbage in the tank they'll maintain it....that's where
    my old oil goes.

    I bring my spent oil to the Mobil in the center of Northboro. They've 
    charged me a buck a gallon for a few years, but I'm happy to have a
    proper place to dispose of the stuff. Since hazardous waste is
    something I have to deal with at work I know it ain't cheap to have
    taken away.
    
    	As for Exxon (in N-boro), When I asked them if I could use thier
    waste oil drain they told me they didn't have. Not no, but, "We don't
    have one". I'd rather be charged a buck. And some how this seems
    consistent with Exxon's environmental policy. 
    	I think they charge for air too
    	Geoff

    Ken,  
    
    If you were looking for a specific answer, hopefully you found
    it by now.  If not, you might try calling your local library,
    "Hi,  This is Ken.  I just changed the oil in my car, and I
    have four quarts of used motor oil.  I want recycle it, but I 
    have no idea what my options are.  Where can I find, or who can 
    I talk to, to get more information?"  If you do, I'd be interested 
    to know how it goes.  
    
    On a much more global level,  I think producers of the stuff
    need to be responsible for figuring out what to do with it.
    Up to this point, we've let Stenchon, Morebile, Swill, and the 
    like, act like profit minded big oil companies.  As consumers,
    we've let them know we'll pay to get the oil, and they don't
    need to worry about what happens to it after that.  That's 
    equivalent to handing over to me control of the soundboard at
    Oakland Arena right now and letting me sing to the crowd for 
    entertainment.  Really.  Think about it.  You know better.
    
    Out of ignorance, we had them put their corporate heads up
    their behinds.  As long as they produced and distributed oil 
    and gas that allowed us to heat our homes and run our vehicles 
    in such a way that a lethal accumulation of toxic fumes would not 
    overtake us for two or three generations, we'd pay the lowest price 
    they could give us at the pump.  We left it up to the other guy to 
    pay for what happens after that.
    
    I think they know better, and somewhere in the bowels of those
    corporations lies the brainpower that's more capable than
    you or I at figuring out the most sane ways and means of 
    dealing with used motor oil and the like.  All *we* have to do 
    is ask.  Is it that naive?  The GE handshake documented by
    David Letterman aside, execs are human.  Given a graceful
    and forceful prompt, we'll get their cooperation for the 
    preservation of the total available market.  
    
    To be quite clear, we know that today, even relatively 
    small manufacturing operations are capable of quickly 
    generating widespread and extremley hazardous situations.
    Thalidomide comes to mind.  When it comes to commodities
    like energy, and information, even a small probability
    of negativity can be significant.  The potential cost of 
    disasters is huge relative to the price of prevention. 
    That's why I think its fine to produce and sell something,
    as long as you can recycle it.
    
      
       
    
    
    
    
    I wonder about it, but I 
    
    for They need 
    to get the oil to us even if they have to put their corporate heads 
    up their behinds in order to do it.  omewhere in the bowels of the organizations that produce and
    distribute motor oil  

re:            <<< Note 96.152 by WLDWST::BLAKKAN "We will survive" >>>

>    "Hi,  This is Ken.  I just changed the oil in my car, and I
>    have four quarts of used motor oil.  I want recycle it, but I 
>    have no idea what my options are.  Where can I find, or who can 
>    I talk to, to get more information?"  If you do, I'd be interested 

    Thanks, but you must be referring to Bruce ;-)  
    I already have several options for recycling my used oil though
    the library isn't one of them ;-)

    Ken

    If you know anybody who has an oil heater in their house,.. they
    can probably use the stuff for fuel, saving a few bucks along
    the way. You must at least run the "junk" oil through a cheesecloth
    before putting it onto the tank to get rid of the big particles
    of dirt. After that, the oil is "good enough" for most oil burners.
    Of course, the guy selling oil will tell you this is bad for your
    oil burner. In fact it may not be up to spec for all oil burners,
    I'm not an oil burner mechanic (nor do I play one on TV), but
    take it FWIW. Also FWIW, many "recycling" gas stations are doing
    exactly this with the used oil,.. a quick strain and then resell
    it as heating oil...
    
    Your milage may vary.
    
    							/
    

re used oil

In Mass. the store you buy new oil from is required to take your used oil if
you put it in the quart containers.  Also, I know in Northampton you can leave
your used oil at the recycling center.

(Sorry, if someone has already said this, I just jumped in after next unseening
for a while the other day.)

Chuck

>	very well. (For those who don't realize it, #2 heating fuel is
>	the same constistency as gasoline, not thick like oil.)
>	
>	Jay



Close, actually Heating oil is closer to Diesel fuel than anything else.

Geoff

    Can't remember if anyone has stated this but used motor oil is great 
    for undercoating yer car...a bit messy but it works and there are
    gas stations out there that will take it and use it for this purpose.
    
    rich

    >> Can't remember if anyone has stated this but used motor oil is great 
    >> for undercoating yer car...a bit messy but it works
    
    Yeah ... I know ... my car is definitely "undercoated" with used motor
    oil ... which has been leaking from my rear seal for the better part of
    a year now ... :^(
    
    			... Bobbb
    

    
    While we're on the subject...where in the Northboro area can i recycle
    my paper waste...i'm one of those folks who puts ANYTHING that's paper
    into a bag for recycling...unfortunately, the new recycling rules they
    put in place in Boylston states that you have to seperate newspapers
    from magazines from envelopes from letters from junk mail from.....
    
    Well you get the picture...it's almost as if they don't want the stuff
    in the first place...
    
    i'd like to find a recycling center that will take ALL paper waste as
    long as its fairly clean and doesn't contain plastic or metal.
    
    Help,
    
    		dugo

Bruce, I believe the sunoco station (way side auto) on route 2A near Veryfine
has a used oil tank.  you might wanna buzz 'em to see if they'll take your
stuff.

/jc

Dugo,

I have the same problem as you ... Grafton muincipal center only takes
white paper and Worcester only takes newspaper.  If you find the answer
for everything else, or everything in general ... please let me know.

Lisa

    on route 146 in Worcester just below Brosnihan Sq is a transmission
    place (Worc Transmission mebbe?) that has a sign out in front 
    advertising them as a place to take your used oil...  it's right
    across from Peterson Oil's gas station/depot (the cheapest gas in town
    too)...
    
    also in worcester:
    
    accepting clean metal cans, glass jars, glass bottles and newpaper-
    
    Shaw's Supermarket on Gold Star Bvd
    	8-2 Sat, Noon-5 Sunday
    Dept of Public Works on Albany St.
    	8-3:30 mon-fri 9-noon sat/sun
    
    accepting cans jars and bottle but NO PAPER
    	
    	Honey Farms 1406 Main St
    		8-2 sat/sun
    	Honey Farms  Park Ave
    		8-2 Sat/Sun
    	Dept of Public Works Quinsig Ave
    		8-3:30 mon-fri
    		9-12   sat-sun
    	Greendale Mall - south end of parking lot
    		8-2 Sat
    		noon-5 sunday
    		ALSO ACCEPTS CORRUGATED CARDBOARD
    
    source for above T&G article "Visions 2000"
    
    you can volunteer to work at a recycling place by calling Mass Audubon
    at 755-8899
    
    						da ve
    

Hi All.

   Does anyone know of someplace I can bring my non-newspaper type paper to be 
recycled in or around Nashua, NH?  How's about magazines?  Except that they don't
take the above stuff, the Nashua recycling center is a grate facility!!!  And
it's always crowded on Saturday mornings (I love to see that)!

Dave

p.s.  Does anyone know of anywhere in this hemisphere that actually recycles
styrofoam???  It bugs me to call something recyclable, when you can't recycle it
'cause nobody does it... :-|

    Not to mention that they've recently opened up a recycling center right
    on South Street ... walking distance from the SHR complex ...
    
    ... Bobbb
    

    
    most palces won't take magazines...  unfortunately the printing
    processes used to produce the nice shiny paper and color glossy
    pictures introduces stuff that renders the pages un-recyclable 
    a lot of the time (heavy metals and stuff i think)...  also a bummer
    that so many of the magazines that push recycling still won't use
    recycled paper stock...  they are afraid that the reduced print and
    picture quality will reduce readership...  (Backpacker is an excellent
    example of this)  :^( 
    
    					da ve 

    In Jaffrey we can recycle almost everything...paper, cans and bottles
    at the dump....plastic meat trays at the super mahket and plastic bags
    at the mahket...only problem Jaffreys ONLY super market just closed.
    Now I have to go to the Jaffrey Dump then the Peterborough or Rindge
    Markets...but it's worth it.
    
    rich

Where, in the Littleton area, can I drop off some plastic to be recycled?  The
Littleton dump does just about everything else but plastic.  I'm willing to
pay a small amount of $ to have it done rather than throw it in w/ the rest
of the trash...

JC

Bbb,

I called about the Shrewsbury recycling center that we could walk to
(if we had the courage to cross Rt 9 that is).  Apparently it is only
open to residents of Shrewsbury.  Workers in the town, like us, don't
qualify.  Oh well.

    
    The Clinton recycle center is open Saturday mornings from 8:00 AM -
    12:00 PM.  They never check to see if you're a resident or not, I don't
    think they care......why should they?  They take plastic, JC.....even
    American Express :^)
    
    Hogan

    Tomorrow (Saturday the 4th) many McDonald's locations are taking Xmas
    trees for recycling.  I think they ask for a $1 donation to help with
    the removal costs.
    
    Scott
    

Re Hogan a couple back

	I am not sure but I think there are almost always expenses
	involved with recycling (like the recyclers have to pay $$
	to have thier stuff hauled away).  Don't ask me why but I'd
	guess that if that is true then that is why they would care.

Lisa

    Somewhere in the midwest there's a company they recycles glossy
    magazine paper and makes newsprint from it.  Chances are they have as
    much raw material as they need, but it's nice to see that someone has
    thought up a way of recycling the stuff.  Some publishers prefer this
    paper over newsprint because it's smoother.
    
    Scott
    

    
    In Westford where I live, there are some real exciting recycling
    programs going on.  We recycle not only newspapers, but magazines and
    junk mail too...  Even the envelopes with the plastic windows!
    
    I believe Westford pays to get the stuff down to Marcal Paper Goods in 
    New Jersey who in turn pays Westford $x per ton.  I think it turns out
    to be close to a wash money wise for Westford, but look at all the
    recycling happening!
    
    So folks, if you are into supporting companies that use recycled raw
    materials, support Marcal.  We do.
    
    Treemon 

If you use the below kits, save them, a program like this may be coming to a 
dec site near you.  If not, then feel free to bring them to me @SHR.


From:	MPGS::ADMIN "06-Feb-1992 1543"  6-FEB-1992 18:28:00.72
To:	@SHRSITE
CC:	ADMIN
Subj:	NEW RECYCLE PROGRAM


+---------------------------+ TM
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
| d | i | g | i | t | a | l |                   INTEROFFICE MEMORANDUM
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
+---------------------------+

	TO: Site Tenants  			DATE: February 5, 1992 
     	 					FROM: Wayne Timura
     	    					DEPT: NETC Facilities
	    					LOC.: SHR 1-3/F14
	   					DTN.: 237-3952
						ENET: MPGS::TIMURA

	SUBJECT: NEW RECYCLE PROGRAM

     	
On February 10, 1992, in partnership with the Laser Printer 
Supplies Recycling Committee we will formally be kicking-off another 
site recycling effort.

The process is simple!  Just re-use the packaging that the new 
maintenance kit arrived in, securely place the used components where
the originals once were, seal it and drop it off at the Engineering
Stockroom in SHR 1-3 or SHR 3-2. 

We also began recycling cardboard and wooden pallets and expect 
to save $4,300 for the Site.

As a pilot site for the Laser Printer program, we began collecting
certain used laser printer kits which will be re-manufactured and
sold.  The following products are currently eligible for collection:

LNO3X-AD  -- User Maintenance Kit for LN03
LN07X-AA  -- Toner Cartridge Kit for DEClaser 1000 family
LNXX-AC   -- Toner Cartridge Kit for DEClaser 2000 family

More than 150,000 of these kits are shipped, used and consequently
thrown away by Digital customers every year, internally and externally. 
This program will allow these kits to be recycled rather than disposed
of.  In addition to the financial benefit of recycling full
participation in the program would eliminate over 500,000 pounds
from the waste stream annually. 

The company's ability to take advantage of recycling opportunities
rests with every employee.  Please do your part to reduce waste by
maximizing recycling which helps preserve our natural resources while
saving Digital money.

For additional information please contact John Corbett, 237-3592 in Facilities.

Regards,

Wayne

Hiya all.

For the past few months, MCCHW (Massachusetts Campaign to Clean up Hazardous
Waste) has been working on a very disturbing situation in Leominster, MA.
Apparently, an abnormal number of children living in the shadow of the Foster
Grant plant there have contracted severe cases of autism. The State and Fed.
Environmental Protection Agencies have repeatedly poo-pooed attempts by the
parents of these children to get to the root cause of the problem. Clearly, the
political power of such a large employer and economically "critical" industry
is weilding its mighty sword. MCCHW has been really succesful in utilizing its
very limited power to make a differnece here; it is pretty much still a very
grass roots organization. Tommorow night at 10:00 there will be a segment
broadcast on 20/20 about these unfortunate children's story. Please watch. 

	Apparently, this is a hot breaking story, as the MCCHW only found out 
yetserday of the broadcast, and I found out directly from them, since they 
called all there members close to Leominster with the news.

	Somehwere I have more info about the unfolding of this situation, maybe 
I even typed into the envirnoment topic a while back. I will repost if I can 
dig it up.

Please distribute this freely..

Mike

    Posted by Sweatleaf on the big.net. Reprinted w/o permission.
    
                     FOREST FOR SALE:  IT'S A STEAL
   
                            by Robert Weir
                            Mill Valley, CA
   
   The Montana National Forest Management Act, which might be passed by the
   Senate any day now,  would release four to six million acres of pristine
   Montana wilderness for "development" - roadbuilding, mining and clear-
   cutting.  Montana's senators, Max Baucus, a Democrat, and Conrad Burns,
   a Republican, very quietly co-sponsored the bill.  With such bipartisan
   support, the measure might appear uncontroversial.  It is not.
   
   A broad coalition of local and national environmental groups and wildlife
   scientists oppose this measure, which attacks the largest remaining old-
   growth forest in the lower 48 states.  In this era of shrinking wilderness
   and increasing appreciation of the economic and esthetic benefits of pre-
   serving our last intact public lands, the plan insults not only Montanans
   but the American public.
   
   The bill was introduced in the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural
   Resources at midnight on Nov. 20, 1991.  With minimal review (the text
   had not even been written), the panel passed it, 20 to 0.  It is now on
   the Senate consent calendar, meaning that a voice vote (with no record
   of how the Senators voted) can be called at any time.  If the measure
   is enacted, taxpayers will once again subsidize at considerable expense
   the ruinous building of roads in old-growth national forests for the sole
   purpose of serving the logging and mining industries.
   
   For example, the legislation directs the Secretary of the Interior to 
   trade and sell to the Plum Creek Timber Company more than 20,000 acres
   of national forest land, to be harvested at will.  According to Senator
   Baucus's office, the measure will open for logging more than 98 percent
   of the timber suitable for harvest in the entire six million-acre region.
   This is a public land giveaway of scandalous magnitude, reminiscent of
   the James Watt era.  Moreover, this measure would deny citizens' rights
   to challenge these "development"  actions in court.
   
   The bill's co-sponsors will likely claim that they are simply serving
   their constituents, providing jobs and bolstering the economy.  Land
   would be clear-cut, as this is the most efficient way to harvest timber.
   The timber industry maintains that clear-cutting is ecologically sound
   because it stimulates the regenerative cycle of a forest fire.  Sadly,
   one need only fly over Oregon and Washington to see the folly in this
   theory.  Years after clear-cutting, lands remain deforested, covered
   only by scrub and weeds.  By contrast, in neighboring areas actually
   burned by a wildfire, ash and residues have enriched the soil and the
   forest is already coming back after only a few years.
   
   When clear-cut forests are replanted, and if the replanting takes, the
   result is a tree farm, not a forest.  Biologically impoverished mono-
   cultures replace diverse ecosystems; habitat for fish and wildlife is
   severely damaged or destroyed.  Of many species, few remain.  At the
   elevations covered in the bill, replanting is an iffy prospect, and any
   regrowth would be extremely slow.  The timber industry doesn't want to
   hear any of this.
   
   Gone with the forests are the logging jobs.  The corporations move on,
   telling the impoverished communities they leave behind to blame environ-
   mentalists ("You know, the spotted owl people").  Meanwhile, they often
   mill the wood in Mexico or elsewhere, using cheap foreign labor, and then
   export it to Japan, which would never consider clear-cutting its own land.
   
   Exports further decimate the resource and eliminate jobs.  The multinational
   corporations would do well to practice logging on a sustained-yield basis,
   but they don't because clear-cutting is much more profitable for the short
   term.  These same companies can afford to contribute generously to Senate
   campaigns - including those of Senators Baucus and Burns - and they do.
   
   The National Forest Service plays along with all of this.  Forest Service
   officials who have stood up for environmentally sound practices are fired
   or transferred.  Those who assist timber and mining efforts are rewarded.
   The agency entrusted with protecting our national forests is quietly 
   trying to put roads into the last large areas of primary forests before 
   arguments can be heard in the forests' defense.  The Baucus-Burns bill 
   includes no specific language about road-building, but it is implicit:
   without access roads, the proposed development cannot take place.  The
   bill would also do away with the normally required environmental impact
   statements.  This is shady business.
   
   Senators Burns and Baucus characterize their bill as a "compromise".
   This seems a misuse of the word when 98 percent of the harvestable timber
   in the national forest would be taken in trade for some proposed 
   wilderness preserves.  These preserves would be composed of lands, mostly
   rock and ice, that no one wants for timber, mining, or recreation.  
   Where is the compromise?
   
   At stake is a biomass of a density equal to that of a tropical rain
   forest, and of similar importance to the planet's life-support system.
   Mass clear-cutting destroys lands and watersheds and causes desertification
   for many miles downwind.  Fish and wildlife disappear.  In Montana,
   private land has been heavily logged, and the companies now want the 
   public land.  And they want American tax dollars to finance them.
   
   Why don't our elected leaders support development that is ecologically
   and economically sustainable?  Clear-cutting public lands is neither.
   The timber barons and extractive industries have had their way with our
   national forests for long enough.  Our ancient forests of the Northern
   Rockies don't belong to industrialists.  They belong to the children,
   to the future, to the earth itself.
   

    anyone knpow how to get in touch with Baucus and Burns???? Seems they
    deserve some shame.....
                           rfb

    They won't be reelected... a prediction... the bill won't pass either..
    another prediction.

Anyone know the number of this bill, so I can reference it when I call or write 
to my senator.

On that note, any feeling on which method of communication may be more 
effective?  Now, the effectiveness of either may be a question I don't want to 
debate right now, but I am curious to know if one or the other carries any more 
weight.

Scott

    Yes please ,.. a little more information if it is available for
    those of us who would like to put upr reps on notice,...
    
    Baucus'/Burns' numbers would help,..
    
    	Anybody?
    							/
    

>    They won't be reelected... a prediction... the bill won't pass either..
>    another prediction.

i hope you're right, but i'm a little more pessimistic

- rich

    
    Baucus - 202-224-2651
    Burns - 202-224-2644
    
    Senate Switchboard - 202-224-3121
    

re   <<< Note 96.185 by VERGA::STANLEY "what a long strange trip it's been" >>>

>    What's going to happen to those guys in about ten years when the 
>    great forests are all destroyed?  They have to make the adjustment

They'll buy tanks of oxygen and use plastic instead of paper plates on
their yachts.  If they want go for a walk in the woods, they'll boot their
virtual reality software.  Money will always pull them through.  The question
is, what will happen to the rest of us?

    
    
    
    			HAPPY EARTH DAY EVERYONE !
    
    if you do anything today, make sure its good for MotherEarth !
    
    take a walk, ride your bike, bring a coffee mug to work and stop using
    throw-away cups, look around your home and/or office to see what you
    can change to save MotherEarth.....every little bit helps :')
    
    Chris

    HMMM. maybe I should take all the recyclables in the back of my truck
    to the recycle station??????? I couldn't find a screwdriver in there
    this morning to save my life!!!!!!!
                                       rfb

    
    
     heard this morning that the good ol bush admin has over ruled which
    ever agency had stopped logging because of the spotted owl in the gate
    northwest. They are going to open up the old growth to logging.
     Sounds like the enviromently president has struck again.
    
     Vote his a#@ out of office and cut off his retirement money.
    
    Divide Dave
    

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

    What he is doing is trying to get the out-of-work-logger-vote.
    He would have had to overrule the Endangered Species Act to
    do this though. Anyone know how he could do this?
    

Probably via a Congressional vote?

This bullsh*t that Bush slings constantly about it being impossible
to protect the environment and not ruin business at the same time is
pretty annoying.  But people are sucking it up as usual.

    
    i, personally, would rather be unemployed and have a world to live in
    than to have a job but no hospitable environment...
    
    but then again, that's just me...
    
    				da ve_who's_still_glad_he_called_1-800-
    				LEAD-RIO_even_it_probably_didn't_mean_much

	Don't forget he's also the "education president". We better
	re-elect him so he can have another chance at fulfilling
	all these promises.

	...Robert

	The Endangered Species act has expired (or will very soon).

	Congress hasn't yet renewed it.

The whole flurry of events surrounding the Spotted Owl are setting precedents 
which will determine the fate of the act; and good science, stewardship, and 
long term thinking are all loosing to short term economics.

  >  Vote his a#@ out of office and cut off his retirement money.
    
How's about we just hang him by his b*lls...?

Oh, yeah, I suppose he'd have to grow some, first!

:-|

Dave

p.s.  Ya know, I used to dislike GHWB less than I disliked Ronnie Ray Gun (tm).
But, I dunno, at least RR was just dumb!

    
    
     Dave 
    
     Don't get pissed get even. Vote his lying a@# out.
    
     Thats what they no b*lls no glory and bush ain't got either.
    
    
    Divide Dave
    

Bush delivered the commencement address at Notre Dame this weekend.  The 
validictorian trashed him and his social, economic, and environmental programs, 
and of course he refused to acknowledge her.  Several faculty and students wore 
white armbands protesting his speech, and one student in the front stood and 
turned his back during Bush's entire speech (and he stood out like a sore 
thumb).  Do you think it had any impact on him??  I tend to doubt it...

Scott

    re:                  <<< Note 96.191 by SCOONR::GLADU >>>

    >What he is doing is trying to get the out-of-work-logger-vote.
    
    Right, but what he's done is comprimise and piss off both groups
    (environmentalists and loggers).  Only certain tracts will be removed
    from protection.  Anyway, there's a lot of lawsuits still pending
    which will make the woodsmen spare those trees for another year or two,
    maybe forever.
    
    Th Endangered Species Act has largely been a failure.  Its one great
    success story is the American Bald Eagle, but for the most part,
    protection under the act is the on deck circle for extinction.  We need
    legislation to protect these species before they become endangered.
    
    Conspiracy buffs take note: the cover story of this week's US News and
    World Report is "Iraqgate," the story of how US taxpayers funded
    Saddam's war machine and the Bush administration tried to cover it up. 
    This story makes Watergate look tame, but it's not getting a lot of
    coverage.  I think we've become jaded to Washington corruption and
    conspiracies.
    
    Jamie

>     Don't get pissed get even. Vote his lying a@# out.

Gonna try my best, Dave!!!

> Bush delivered the commencement address at Notre Dame this weekend.  The 
> validictorian trashed him and his social, economic, and environmental programs, 
> and of course he refused to acknowledge her.  Several faculty and students wore 
> white armbands protesting his speech, and one student in the front stood and 
> turned his back during Bush's entire speech (and he stood out like a sore 
> thumb). 

LOVE IT!!!!

Could this be a sign that high-school/college age people are finally getting a
clue?!?  When I was in school (college, during the '88 election), many of my
peers were completely brainwashed republican drones with attitudes like "I want
to make a lot of money and be just like the Ray-gun-yuppies (tm)!  And I don't
care who or what gets destroyed in the process..."

Hope???

I hope so!

Dave

>Could this be a sign that high-school/college age people are finally getting a
>clue?!?  When I was in school (college, during the '88 election), many of my

I think so.  The environment seems to be a real hot issue on campus right now.

The wheel is turning ....

 I thought I heard something over the weekend about GHWB (the environmental
Prez) wanting to relax emmisions standards for industry so they don't have to
make public any changes in the harmful stuff they emit..did anybody else hear
that?




Jum

Jum --

Yep, the Bushman wants to adopt the recommendations of Quayle's "council on
competitiveness".  These recommendations make it easier for industry to
increase/change the pollutants that they're dumping into the air, with little
or no reporting of the changes. In my opinion these recommendations will 
essentially gut the Clean Air Act -- quite hypocritical of old Georgie,
who just a few months ago was pointing to the Clean Air Act as being a typical
example of how he's "the environmental President".  Just a short time ago
the Clean Air Act was referred to in every speech he made that touched on
the environment;  recent speeches would lead you to believe that he'd never
heard of it...

	-td

    Yeah - Bushleague_man said that by changing the regulations, they'll
    cut down on mountains  of paperwork (thereby making a cleaner
    environment :-/)   All that pesky paperwork.   The reporter also
    credits Quayle as leading the fight for this dereg.  
    
    In a recent 'Progressive' article, Quayle is cited as the Republican
    Party's bagman - making the most money on the lecture circuit.  Also
    is  considered Bush's hitman for dereg issues.  The article is titled :
    "Deregulartory Creep".
    
    carol
    

    Did I hear right that the Clinton landfill is dead?  That's grate news,
    I hadn't realized how close it would be to my (soon-to-be) home.  I'll
    have to postpone my Alka-Seltzer experiments, though.
    
    Jamie

 RE .203 and .204..


  I wonder what its going to take to get the message out about this BS..are
people ever going to pay attention and see what is going on?  I guess we should
all be encouraged that polls have H (what does that stand for anyway) Ross
Perot leading George and Clinton :-/



What a country..


/disgusted Jum

>  I wonder what its going to take to get the message out about this BS..are
>people ever going to pay attention and see what is going on?  I guess we should

I think the Gulf War showed us that, as long as it doesn't give out all the
facts, the government can get the people to go along with what ever's going on
or at least not object too much.

Quayle isn't so much of a joke now, is he?

> Quayle isn't so much of a joke now, is he?

Well, he is still a joke, but I'm not laughing! :-|

Dave

    the other little bit of wonderment i heard about Georgie is that
    even though he has agreed that he will go to Rio now (let's hear it for 
    "the environmental pres!"), he will only participate so long as it
    doens't mean additional regs and limits on emissions (said something
    like we have done enough to be leaders in that regard [even though we
    are behind many European allies]...  let's hear it for "the
    environmental pres!"  pppllllllltttttttt!!!!!)...
    
    					da ve

    And - being the paranoid tyoe that I am - I now believe that 'they'
    wish for us to think Quayle is a bumbling idiot ... that way 'we' won't
    take his rhetoric seriously .. and he can then slip lots of stuff by
    'us' under the guise of his being a fool.
    
    Carol_cautionary
    

    Wow,.. Carol,.. now that is an interesting thought. Imagine that
    Qualyle really does have a brain (!),.. and that he's playing dumb
    so we won't think hes actually capable of accomplishing anything and
    meanwhile hes off implementing the burn the owrld down so we can make
    more money now dammit philosophy,..
    
    This just ruined my day
    
    But thanks for making me think
    
    							/off_to_the_think_tank

re da ve

>   the other little bit of wonderment i heard about Georgie is that
>    even though he has agreed that he will go to Rio now (let's hear it for 
>    "the environmental pres!"), he will only participate so long as it
>    doens't mean additional regs and limits on emissions (said something

Actually he's already badgered the participants into agreeing on this.  He's
definitely going, and he'll come off looking good to all the people who don't
realize that the Rio conference is mostly a token gesture at this point.

Psychology and information control ... political tools of choice for the 
government of the Nineties.

Re:    <<< Note 96.213 by NOPROB::JOLLIMORE "Life is hard. Play short." >>>
>                         -< everyday, in every way .. >-
>
>	JUST SAY NO!!!

	I prefer - Just Say Know!

	Bob

    Wait a minute.
    
    Quayle is raking in money on the lecture circuit?  That man can't even
    form full sentences, much less include any content.  Something is wrong
    with that picture.
    
    And if Danny boy is only acting stupid, I think he deserves an Academy
    Award.  He's good.  Damn good.
    
    tim

    
    Can you say 'henchman'?  I think you can.  
    
    c

>    Quayle is raking in money on the lecture circuit?  That man can't even
>    form full sentences, much less include any content.  Something is wrong

Seen him on any talk shows lately?  When he's prepared, he delivers the
propaganda flawlessly.  He learns his lines well.  If he's challenged or is
required to deviate from the topic, his skull vacuum is revealed, but a 
lecture is kind of one-way deal ....

    heard this this morning....78% of US voters are glad to know Bush is
    going to Rio for the Environment summit and 98% think he should stay
    there after its over !

re      <<< Note 96.216 by SMURF::GRADY "Short arms, and deep pockets..." >>>
                          -< Remember Spiro Agnew... >-

>    Quayle is raking in money on the lecture circuit?  That man can't even
>    form full sentences, much less include any content.  Something is wrong
>    with that picture.
 
that is precisely why we taxpayers pay for all sorts of press staff that
write Quayle's speaches for him.
   

As far as the Rio Summit, Bush is an a5e.  He is only going to agree to what
amounts to a suggestion for limited pollutants into the air: that is, a 
guideline: that is: you don't have to do it if you don't want to.  

This a really lame.  Big Business Bush and all his rich business people
will support the republican party for this next election.  Bush has something
like 7.2 million in campaign $$ vs. 2M in DEBT for Clinton.  Meanwhile,
Perot has $100M to spend.  Polls still show Bush ahaed, and, quite frankly,
I can't believe it.!

    So what's going on with the birch trees?  On 495 between Franklin and
    maybe Milford the leaves on the birch trees are turning brown.  Is
    there some sort of birch tree disease going around or something?
    
    dave

???

    Don't see any webs.

re: birches

manmade Chemicals perhaps?

re: other stuff


The Littleton town dump just started a plastic recycling program.  a woman
was handing out flyers and i thanked her many times and told her how happy
i was to see this (I have bags of plastic to recycle).  they said they  only
take #1, #2, and #4.  Can someone explain the deal with the numbers?  what
do they mean?  Deb and I will make our best effort to buy things that are
recylable; we tend to dislike plastic all together... 

> they said they  only
> take #1, #2, and #4.  Can someone explain the deal with the numbers?

On all plastic containers (usually on the bottom) there is one of those little
"recycle"(tm) triangles.  Inside the triangle is a number.  The number denotes
the kind of plastic it is.  

Wow!  That's grate that they're taking #4...Nashua only takes #1 and #2.

Also, the lower the number, the more readily recyclable it is...

Dave

> i was to see this (I have bags of plastic to recycle).  they said they  only
> take #1, #2, and #4.  Can someone explain the deal with the numbers?  what
> do they mean?  Deb and I will make our best effort to buy things that are

The #'s stand for different grades of plastic as far as I can tell.
Look at the packaging and somewhere you'll see a triangular shaped
figure with an arrow and a # in the middle, which corresponds to the
plastic type.  

Since the Charlton dump closed, so did the recycling program :-/

Ken

    Acton's recycle center only takes #1 and #2 does anyone know
    of anyplace that takes #3-#6?
    
    Heidi

    Now I'm noticing birches all over with brown (meaning dead looking and
    or burnt looking) leaves.  I'm concerned!  I'll check the environmental
    notesffile to see if anything is in there.  If not, I'll post a note
    there.
    
    dave
    

    Having worked the recycling center a few times in my town, I've had
    some time to look at the numbers and come up with some conclusions.
    #1's are usually clear food item plastics, ketchup, salad dressing
    and the like.  #2's (the only ones we accept these days, sigh...) 
    are the milk/water container and also most of your general house
    hold cleaners (including baby wipes! ;-)  Note that the pour top
    spouts may be different and you have to pull those suckers off.
    I remember seeing some of the others but I can't remember what they
    were on now.
    
    PeterT
    

Sign seen above recycling bin:

	TALK ABOUT LONG LIFE:  It takes 17 trees to produce a ton
	of paper.  But it's been proven that the wood fibers in paper
	will last through 12 recyclings.  So for every ton of paper
	that's recycled a dozen times, 204 trees are spared.

				-- Wood Magazine, August 1992

    and of course if we stopped useing trees for paper and pulp, and used
    plants (specifically ONE plant) whose fibers are perfect for such
    things, 85% of the trees cut down today would be growing tomorrow.
    
    rfb (who does cut down trees, but it ain't clear-cuttin!)

    >>      <<< Note 96.231 by SKYLRK::TING "Give Peace a Chance!!!" >>>

    >>  Sign seen above recycling bin:

    >>  TALK ABOUT LONG LIFE:  It takes 17 trees to produce a ton
    >>  of paper.  But it's been proven that the wood fibers in paper
    >>  will last through 12 recyclings.  So for every ton of paper
    >>  that's recycled a dozen times, 204 trees are spared.

    >>				-- Wood Magazine, August 1992
                                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Hey T!ng ... I know you live in a different time zone and all, but back
    east it's only June 1992 !!! 
    
    		;^)
    
    			... Bobbb
    

>    >>				-- Wood Magazine, August 1992
>                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^
>    
>    Hey T!ng ... I know you live in a different time zone and all, but back
>    east it's only June 1992 !!! 

I know, but that's the date on the sign.  I think most magazines are
usually 2 months ahead of the rest of the human population ;-).

peace,
t!ng_who_had_*not*_recently_traveled_in_the_time_machine_in_spite_of
    _rumors 8-)

    Welp, as for the birch trees dying....I gotta be the only one that
    notices the brown leaves on the white birches along 495 south of
    Marlboro....anyway, I saw an acticle in the Providence Sunday Journal.
    It talked about the birch boring beetles or something.  They infest the
    birches and lay eggs between the bark and the wood (in creaveses in the
    bark) which eventually kill the tree.  The article didn't attest to any
    massive infestation going on, however, they mentioned some prevention:
    water the tree more so it's not stessed.
    
    I'm still not satisfied.  I want answers, dammit!!  :^}
    
    dave

The Beef on the trees...


------------------------------

From: Western Ancient Forest Campaign <wafcdc@igc.org>
Date: 22 Jun 92 07:47 PDT
Subject: Ancient Forest LEgislative Update


TO:           Ancient Forest Activists
FROM:         Jim Owens
DATE:         June 18, 1992
 
SUBJECT:      Agriculture Committee Approves Ancient Forest Act
 
Today the House Agriculture Committee, chaired by Kika de la Garza
(D-TX), succeeded in approving their version of the Ancient Forest Act
(H.R. 4899).  In a long, disorganized and sometimes disheartening
session, the Committee considered approximately 20 amendments
before its final approval of a bill establishing an Ancient Forest
Reserve system based upon the "8A" alternative developed in the
Volkmer Report.
 
Today's debate was based upon the Kopetski/Volkmer version of H.R.
4899, approved by Rep. Volkmer's (D-MO) Subcommittee on Forests,
Family Farms and Energy.  The Subcommittee bill was an ungainly
vehicle which the environmental community had helped pass, with the
recognition that it needed improvement before it reached the Floor. 
Today's votes removed the most onerous sections of the bill, protected
Opal Creek, and added a Sierra section to the bill.  Several questionable
amendments were also passed, though their full impact upon the bill
will be difficult to measure until the amended bill is printed next week.
 
Many attempts were made to strengthen the protections offered by this
bill, but these attempts consistently failed due to opposition from either
Northwest Members, the Committee Chairmen, or the Administration's
Republican bloc.  Rep. Jontz made several unsuccessful attempts to
increase the level of protection for fisheries in the Northwest, and also
tried without success to add the Eastside forests to this bill.  The real
environmental vote during this markup was on Rep. Jim Olin's
amendment to raise the level of protection offered by the bill to the
"8C" level.  This vote failed on a 14 to 29 vote.  
 
The "8C" vote was as follows:
 
Jones         No            Nagle         Yes           Emerson       No     
Brown         Yes           Jontz         Yes           Morrison      No
Rose          Yes           Johnson       Yes           Gunderson     No
English       No            Campbell      Yes           Lewis         No
Panetta       Yes           Espy          No            Smith         No
Huckaby       No            Sarpalius     No            Combest       No
Glickman      Yes           Long          Yes           Herger        No
Stenholm      No            Condit        Yes           Walsh         Yes
Volkmer       No            Peterson      Yes           Camp          No 
Hatcher       No            Dooley        No            Allard        No 
Tallon        No            Kopetski      No            Barrett       No 
Staggers      No            Coleman       No            Nussle        No
Olin          Yes           Marlenee      No            Boehner       No
Penny         Yes           Hopkins       No
Stallings     No            Roberts       No
 
The "8C" vote was a difficult vote for many Members, given that the
two Chairmen (de la Garza and Volkmer) opposed the amendment, as
did the Administration Republicans and the Northwest Delegation. 
Once again, Speaker Foley stepped in to make calls opposing "8C",
and Reps. Dicks, Unsoeld and DeFazio were said to be working the
Floor in opposition to this vote.  The fourteen Members who braved
this barrage should be profusely thanked, they voted on the merits of
the issue, not the politics of the moment.
 
The Sierra amendment offered by Rep. Panetta (D-CA) and supported
by Reps. Brown (D-CA), Condit (D-CA), and Dooley (D-CA), won on a
voice vote early in the Committee session.  The amendment establishes
a scientific committee to develop management guidelines, and provides
interim protection for roadless areas and riparian zones in the Sierra.
 
Several attempts by Rep. Smith (R-OR) to protect timber sales from
challenges under the nation's environmental laws were defeated, as
was Rep. Smith's amendment to substitute the Administration's
"Extinction Plan" for the Kopetski/Volkmer version of H.R. 4899.  
 
An attempt by Rep. Morrison (R-WA) to furnish "certainty" by creating
ten year timber targets was defeated, but his amendment to allow
salvage in reserves, "if appropriate to the bill's purposes," was
approved.
 
Rep. Kopetski's amendments to remove the ramp-down timber sale
program, and the appeals limitations of the Subcommittee bill were
approved by the Committee, and the timber sale program in LS/OG
areas which I alerted you to yesterday was not offered in the markup
following a consideration of its problem implications.
 
Rep. Kopetski was pleased to offer protection for Opal Creek, which
he called: "An area in which chainsaws should be prohibited forever." 
Rep. Smith voiced strong opposition for this amendment, but it was
carried on a voice vote.
 
There were other amendments approved, among them one offered for
Rep. Unsoeld (D-WA) which allows experimental forest areas outside of
Ancient Forest Reserves.  
 
After exhausting all possibilities for amendments, the Committee
approved the Kopetski/Volkmer version of H.R. 4899 on a 27 to 15 vote. 
This final version adopts the Volkmer Report's "8A" alternative for
management of Northwest forests, initiates a scientific approach for
managing the Sierra forests, and protects Opal Creek.
 
The final vote was:
 
Jones         Yes           Nagle         Yes           Hopkins       No
Brown         Yes           Jontz         Yes           Roberts       No
Rose          Yes           Johnson       Yes           Emerson       No
English       Yes           Campbell      Yes           Morrison      Yes
Panetta       Yes           Espy          Yes           Gunderson     Yes
Huckaby       Yes           Sarpalius     Yes           Lewis         Yes
Glickman      Yes           Long          Yes           Smith         No
Volkmer       Yes           Condit        Yes           Combest       No
Tallon        Yes           Peterson      Yes           Herger        No
Staggers      Yes           Dooley        Yes           Walsh         Yes
Olin          Yes           Kopetski      Yes           Camp          No
Penny         Yes           Coleman       No            Allard        No
Stallings     No            Marlenee      No            Barrett       No
                                                        Nussle        No
                                                        Boehner       No
                                                        Ewing         No
 
This was a hard vote from a Committee which is known for its
conservative approach to natural resource issues, and for its deference
to Members from affected regions.  It was also a hard vote for members
who were under pressure from the timber industry and the labor
unions to defeat H.R. 4899.  
 
Rep. Jim Jontz's efforts to improve this bill, to deal directly with the
problems facing the fisheries and the eastside forests of the
Northwest, will not be forgotten by those who watched him try to
move Members who wanted this bill passed, and out of their way. 
Rep. Jontz is a tireless champion for this nation's old growth forests;
he provides leadership and inspiration on this issue to Members and
grassroots activists alike.  
 
Rep. Kopetski's efforts, and those of Rep. Morrison and Rep. Volkmer
kept this bill moving along.  Rep. Kopetski's efforts to "clean-up" this
bill by dumping some sections which were particularly bad were
praiseworthy.
 
All of the Members who cast their votes for "8C" and "8A" should be
thanked, and reminded that they will have an opportunity to improve
this bill when it comes to a vote on the Floor.
 
The Speaker should be asked why he once again was working the
phones, calling Members on the Agriculture Committee to vote for
"8A", rather than "8C" and an Eastside amendment.  His advisor Nick
Ashmore was very much a part of the Committee's activities, moving
about among the Members, staff and audience to make his presence
and recommendations well know.
 
Other Northwest Members were working the Floor of the House to
block the "8C" amendment.  We received reports that Reps. Dicks,
DeFazio and Unsoeld were pressuring Members to vote against "8C".  
 
The next step in this process is still not clear.  Rep. George Miller has
to decide how to deal with Speaker Tom Foley (D-WA), whose
opposition to any real protection of the Northwest's forests, especially
his own, is becoming very evident as he comes out of the shadows to
manipulate the political process without reference to the resources at
risk.  
 
I have no doubt that there will be an Interior Committee consideration
of this bill in about two weeks.  If that fails, look for Rep. de la Garza
to carry this weak Agriculture Committee bill to the floor, looking over
his shoulder for Rep. George Miller to come roaring in with a strong
bill.  Rep. de la Garza is not happy at this prospect; it bears too much
of a similarity to the Tongass battle, where Rep. de la Garza got
chewed up when he tried to defend a bill which was too weak.  
 
Will history repeat itself?  Our efforts will continue to focus on the
threatened forests and ecosystems of the Northwest.  When we bring
the story of these forests before the American public, the trees, salmon
and ecosystems speak for themselves, and the arguments of Speaker
Foley grow weak when placed next to a part of our American Heritage
fast disappearing.  We will persevere.


------------------------------

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!lll-winken!dogmead!clarinews
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.biz.products,clari.tw.environment,clari.local.massachusetts
Subject: Boston sludge fertilizes Florida oranges
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 92 10:21:30 GMT-0:06


    FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (UPI) -- More than 1,000 tons of toxic sludge
dredged from Boston Harbor has been used to fertilize Florida oranges,
vegetables and other crops in the past six months.
    According to records obtained by the Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel,
the shipments of BB-sized sludge pellets began even as the U.S.
Environmental Protection Agency was trying to decide how safe sludge is.
    The decision is still not made, although the EPA recommended in 1989
that Florida receive the sludge, the newspaper said Sunday.
    The controversy dates to the 1988 presidential campaign when then-
Vice President George Bush attacked Massachusetts Gov. Michael Dukakis,
the Democratic candidate, for not cleaning up Boston Harbor.
    Not long afterward, the EPA made Florida and Texas target states for
the sludge, which is a byproduct of harbor cleanup.
    The Texas deal fell through but the EPA admits Florida and Texas were
chosen because their sludge rules were the most lax of the nine states
checked -- the others were New York, Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts,
New Hampshire, Rhode Island and Vermont.
    ``It's a hell of a way to handle toxic materials -- look around for a
place that has weak laws to dump it,'' said William Sanjour, an EPA
employee. ``It's nothing more than a scheme for diluting industrial
waste and spreading it anwhere they can.''
    Sludge is the material left after solids are allowed to settle out of
sewage. The sludge is baked at more than 700 degrees to kill disease-
causing bacteria, but still contains trace amounts of lead, mercury,
chromium and other heavy metals.
    Mercury can cause developmental problems if fetuses are exposed. Lead
impairs children's learning abilities and chromium is a poison that can
affect digestive organs.
    Toxic metals got into the sludge when industrial wastes were dumped
into Boston's sewers.
    Florida has no restrictions on mercury or chromium. Records from the
Florida Department of Environmental Regulation show 1,000 tons of sludge
has been shipped to at least 10 sites in central Florida in the past six
months, the Sun-Sentinel said.
    E.F. Murray, a consultant to Harrell's fertilizer plant in Lakeland,
a recipient, said sludges have been used in Florida fertilizer for many
years.
    ``Practically any sludge would be highly useful in this soil here
becuase it's so sandy,'' Murray said.
    He said Harrell's is still experimenting with the Boston sludge.
    Massachusetts' environmental regulations make it nearly impossible to
use the sludge there, said Eric Buehrens, a manager of the Massachusetts
Water Resources Authority.
    Buehrens acknowledged that most sludge contains toxic metals, but
said the material is ``perfectly acceptable'' for use.
    ``The stuff is absolutely among the cleanest wastewater sludges
produced in the United States,'' Buehrens said.
    Residents of the Boston suburb of Quincy, where the sludge pellets
are produced, have opposed the operation.
    Massachusetts state Sen. Paul Harold said he is also investigating
the health implications of using the sludge on citrus crops.
    Harold said that if he finds scientific evidence that human health
could be impaired, he will push legislation requiring special labeling
of Florida citrus for sale in Massachusetts.

    		URGH.

I'm sure The Environmental President (tm) is appalled! 

:-|

Dave

       If we condense this inconceivable time-span into an understandable 
    concept, we can liken Earth to a person of 46 years of age.
    
       Nothing is known about the first 7 years of this person's life, and
    whilst only scattered information exists about the middle span, we know
    that only at the age of 42 did the Earth begin to flower.
    
       Dinosaurs  and the great reptiles did not appear until one year ago,
    when the planet was 45. Mammals arrived only 8 months ago; in the mid-
    dle of last week man-like apes evolved into ape-like men, and at the
    weekend the last ice age enveloped the Earth.
    
       Modern man has been around for 4 hours. During the last hour, man
    discovered agriculture. The industrial revolution began a minute ago.
    
       During those sixty seconds of biological time, Modern Man has made
    a rubbish tip of paradise.
    
       He has multiplied his numbers to plague proportions, caused the ex-
    tinction of 500 species of animals, ransacked the planet for fuels and
    now stands like a brutish infant, gloating over this meteoric rise to
    ascendancy, on the brink of a war to end all wars and of effectively
    destroying this oasis of life in the solar system.
    
                                                         Greenpeace 

	re: -1

	wow!   

RE: .242

That should be posted under 

"Thought, Feeling, or Image of a LIFETIME"

Heavy stuff...

Thanks for posting it.

Dave

    re.242
    
    Wow...fairly interesting concept...  Kinda puts things in the proper
    perspective, doesn't it?
    
    Rob

	Interesting take on the Earth (re: past reply).

soapbox time:

	On another note, everyone can help with the problems we have.  Start
	recycling:

	-buy goods that can be recycled by your town/city dump.  
	-Reuse your plastic bags until they are spent;  
	-don't put every damn veggie you buy at the store in a plastic 
         bag (cukes, tomatoes, brocolli, onions, 'shrooms, etc,etc DON'T
         need to be put in a plastic bag every time).
	-if you need to buy something in plastic, turn the container upside down
	 and check the number in the middle of the triangular arrow thingy.
	 Buy the products that have a # that your town recycles.
	-recycle your newpapers, glass, tin cans, and alum. cans.

One you are set up and get into it, recycling takes next to ZERO time.  Deb
and I have 3 boxes: 1 for newpaper, 1 for glass/tin, and a third for alum.
cans.  Just rinse, and put in the box.  We emtpy 'em every 3-4 weeks.... it
takes NO time.

	
Just this week, I volunteered to help sort and educate people at the Littleton
dump on recycling plastic, tin, and aluminum.  I plan to do more of this.  I'm
currently volunteering only 2 hours a MONTH ... not much time... (we have 50
or so volunteers)....

AND LASTLY:  VOTE SMART.  Vote for the people who are going to do something
about the environment, not some asshole who puts money/business/economy #1.
Without a livable environment, we won'ty have MONEY, BUSINESS, and a thriving
economy as we'll all be DEAD....

ok, off my soapbox now.

	Good luck with the plastic educational process JC

	I was in charge of Actons plastics recycling program
	until I found out that the town needed to meet "TRASH
	QUOTA'S".  I was furious when I heard this, what the 
	f&ck kind of item is a trash quota??  I read in the 
	local paper 3 weeks ago that the trash quota has been 
	uplifted due to pressure from the town people (my Mom
	being one of them).

    errr, don't ya'll already know this?? and don't ya'll SUPPORT
    Greenpeace?????????????
                                             rfb

    yep, I support Greenpeace, and just became a member July 28 at the
    Blues Travelers and Allman Bros. show......
    
    rochelle

    And The Sierra Club, and the Wilderness Society, and National
    Audubon, and National Wildlife Society . . . . 
    
    
    :^)  sparky_who_got_carried_away!
    

    the only problem I have with the Nat Wildlife Society is their
    anti-hunting agenda.. sure it's not cool to hunt elephants and tigers 
    (endangerd) , but American deer populations would eventually kill them
    selves off without hunting. I tend to support the American Wildlife 
    Soc., more emphasis on habitat rescue. 
                                           rfb

re:          <<< Note 96.243 by MONTOR::HANNAN "Beyond description..." >>>
>                           -< interesting angle... >-
>
>	re: -1
>
>	wow!   

EXACTLY what I said!

>                      <<< Note 96.248 by CXDOCS::BARNES >>>
>
>    errr, don't ya'll already know this?? and don't ya'll SUPPORT
>    Greenpeace?????????????
>                                             rfb

Of course, but it's good to see it in print.

adam

    re: supporting greenpeace
    
    i signed up as a member during the boston garden run last fall; i
    figured this was a good thing to do, but since then i have had some
    reservations:
    
    1) when i got my credit card bill for the membership, the amount
    charged to my card was twice what i had signed up to pay; in all
    likelihood this was an honest mistake, but ya never know; i have heard
    stories of charitable and other causes overcharging people when they
    make donations, assuming that they'll just overlook the mistake and pay
    it anyway, because it's "for a good cause"
    
    2) i don't mind being periodically updated as to what greenpeace is
    doing; however, in the year since i made a contribution, i have been
    innundated with mail from greenpeace; the vast majority of this mail
    has asked for additional contributions; i made my initial contribution,
    but i do not care to give greenpeace more money every month; i consider
    this to be an enormous waste of paper; additionally, every return
    envelope is pre-stamped, another technique used to get people more
    likely to contribute money; i wonder how much of my membership is
    paying for overhead, mass mailings, and repeated 29 cent postage on
    return envelopes that i do not return
    
    3) in the past year, i have also been innundated with junk mail from
    countless other "liberal" causes; while i do sympathize with a lot of
    the causes, i simply don't have the desire or resources to monetarily
    commit to them all; again, this could be a coincidence, but i never got
    this amount of this type of junkmail before; it appears obvious that
    greenpeace sells their membership list to other organizations; i do not
    desire my name and address to be spread like this; and i don't recall a
    box available on the form that i filled out initially that gave me the
    option of not allowing this; there should be such an option
    
    perhaps i should be raising these concerns with greenpeace directly...
    
    - rich
    

    According to an recent article (I think it was in Rolling Stone
    sometime within the last 6-9 months),  Greenpeace is undergoing
    a crisis...  The organization has grown way beyond anyone's
    wildest dreams;  thay have tons of money, and little idea
    how to behave as a "legitimate" organization, or whether
    they even want to be "legitimate."  
    
    I agree that the amount of paper that Greenpeace generates
    seems inordinate, given their goal of protecting the environment.
    
    Dunno what the "answer" might be...
    
    /bruce

    join the crowd, rich.....I've ALWAYS had certain reservations about
    the way Greenpeace does/goes about their "daily" business...but the
    good outways the bad...hell, every greenpeace door-to-door-money-seeker
    has lyed to us about one thing or another....rich, yer lucky they
    haven't called you on the phone long-distance asking for money...as
    they did me during their anti-dioxin campaign....I always tell them i
    can only give so much because i spend too much money on the grateful
    dead. %^)
    
    oh, and i didn't mean to sound so cynical with my "y'all don't already
    know this stuff" comment
    
    rfb
    
    re: liberal causes ...better than getting litrature/giving money to the
    "Young Republicans" %^)

    i am with Rich too...  in fact, i no longer support Greenpeace
    financially (unless you count the occasional dollar spent on
    bumperstickers and stuff) although they are entitled to all the free
    good vibes they want! :^)
    
    imho, Greenpeace got too big, too fast...  they lost thier focus,
    became wasteful...  by supporting (or trying to) virtually every
    environmental issue that came down the pike, they primarily served
    to make thier voice mean very little...  i am a bit supporter of
    environmental issues, but i also believe in picking your battles...
    i also take exception to the "attitude" they seem to have copped the
    last couple of years...  striking me more and more as "holier than
    thou"...  it's almost as if everyone is supposed to accept thier
    position without question just because they are Greenpeace and know
    more about everything environmental than we can...    probably the 
    proverbial "last straw" for me with them was that incident with the
    Navy a while back where Greenpeace whined and cried about unfair
    treatment and having thier vessel deliberately rammed by a navy
    vessel...  when the truth of the matter came out, they hzad nothing to
    cry abot becasue they were told repeatedly what would happen should
    they try to interfere...  they came off like a spoiled brat kid who
    picked a fight and then cried to Mommy about a bloody nose that was the
    direct result of thier own actions...
    
    i understand that the recession is hitting them hard and they are
    having really tough economic times...  contributions are down and they
    are cutting way back...  personally, i am psyched...  i think it's the
    best thing that could happen to them...  maybe it will force them to be
    a little more selective about the causes they choose to fight and start
    spending thier money a little more wisely....
    
    					da ve_coming_off_his_soapbox_now
    						:^)

    as I said....i STILL think the good outways the bad.....MHO
                                                               rfb

    (Almost?) every request for funds contains a pargraph
    somewhere that tells you where to write for information
    about the charity's income/expenses.  You can then
    determine how much of your (potential) doantion goes
    towards fundraising and overhead.
    
    /bruce

	Also, at least some of the door-to-door solicitors work on 
	commission.  The daughter of a woman I was dating worked one
	summer for MassPIRG.  After two weeks training at minimum
	wage, she was on comission.  She got 40% of any donations
	she collected.

	I'm not sure, but would suspect, that the other door to door
	solicitors work the same way.

	Bob

    re.261
    
    My brother did something similar.  For his training period, I think he
    got minimum wage.  He had to reach a certain amount of money collected
    before his training was officially over.  After that, I believe he was
    paid depending on how much he collected.  He was working for New Jersey
    Citizens for Action...
    
    Rob

    I don't think the college kids Greenpeace uses to cover our
    neighborhood get paid...strickly volunteer, I think...course in Boulder
    it's easy to find the type...%^)
                                    rfb

	re: commissions with MassPirg

	That explains the extremely pushy attitude some of the door-to-door
	MASSPIRG people have.

	me: 	  I would really like to donate but I'm just flat broke, can't
		  afford to donate a dime right now.
	masspirg: Any amount is ok, couldn't you donate say $15.00 ?  A lot of
	  	  the people on your street have.  See ?
	me: 	  I usually donate to your organization, but I can't right now.
	masspirg: You can postdate a check, and you can do it for any amount.
	me:	  Look, I'd really like to, but like i said, I'm broke!
	masspirg: It's only a small amount, and you can postdate a check.
	me: 	  I don't have enough to even cover the mortgage this month!

	At this point, I'm getting aggravated at explaining my personal 
	stuff to the person.  Like hey I gotta feed the kids first!
	
	I used to support them, and Greenpeace, and all kinds of stuff,
	but there's literally nothing left over for anything else these 
	days.  
	
	I admit that the last Masspirg visitor was very nice.  He must have
	been a rookie on minimum wage...

	Ken

    
    Ken, that's almost the exact same conversation I had with a NYPIRG
    solicitor a month or so ago.  They must train them together.  I also
    got the, "are you a student.. you can get a student membership.  Oh
    well, you LOOK like a student so I'll let you have one anyway."
    
    

    geez..ya'll make these people sound like Jahovas Witnesses!! %^)
    
    
    rfb (no offense to Jahovas Witnesses or greenpeace-money-seekers)
    
    

    I was fired after two days of 'commission' soliciting for NYPIRG back
    when I was trying to find out what I really wanted to do with my life.
    Spent a coule of days being trained (don't remember more than a free
    lunch from that) and then was sent out on my own.  I couldn't meet 
    their quota's so I was history!  I think I was too easygoing to 
    really make it ("You don't agree with us?  Oh, that's OK, I
    understand."  "It sounds good, but you can't give any money today?
    OK, maybe some other time" ;-) They only paid me half what they said
    they would, but then, I didn't pull in the money they were hoping 
    for either.  Never really felt all that comfortable going door to 
    door and begging for money.  I guess I'm just too honest and 
    sympathetic.  What a loser ;-)
    
    Later,
    PeterT
    

    re: loser
    well then, "don't cha touch hard liquor, just acup of cold coffee.."
                                                                        rfb

I did the door to door thing for Mass Fair Share for over 1 1/2 years.  
Yikes!  When I think about that now I find it hard to believe.  

I really thought that I was doing "the right thing" so I guess I managed,
I'd NEVER do that again.  I was feeling manic-depressive, that kind of work
is hard on you.  Especially selling a non-tangible, politics.

I still think that what I did then was good, just find it hard to believe
that I did it!

Kevin

re;<<< Note 96.270 by TRYOUT::KEVIN "Take Something Very Seriously, But Not Yourself" >>>

> I still think that what I did then was good, just find it hard to believe
> that I did it!

It *was* a good thing to do.  I respect these organizations whole-heartedly!
As Hunter Thompson would say, "they're one of us".  It's just the fact if 
I gotta say "no I can't", I mean it, and wish they wouldn't be so pushy.

Ken

    
    Any residents of Milford NH out there? Can they tell me what can and 
    cannot be recycled here? I know they do aluminum, labeled plastic and 
    glass but what about aluminum foil, newspapers, grocery bags, tin...
    
    :-Chuck

       <<< Note 96.272 by NOVA::FREIWALD "Sic friatur crustum dulce!" >>>

>    Any residents of Milford NH out there? Can they tell me what can and 
>    cannot be recycled here? I know they do aluminum, labeled plastic and 
>    glass but what about aluminum foil, newspapers, grocery bags, tin...
 
aluminum, newspaper (not glossy inserts), all glass, labeled plastic, 
I give em my grocery bags too.  

So Chuck you in town?  welcome!  Give us a buzz some time....
bob

>                      <<< Note 96.273 by LANDO::HAPGOOD >>>
>
>       <<< Note 96.272 by NOVA::FREIWALD "Sic friatur crustum dulce!" >>>
>
>>    Any residents of Milford NH out there? Can they tell me what can and 
>>    cannot be recycled here? I know they do aluminum, labeled plastic and 
>>    glass but what about aluminum foil, newspapers, grocery bags, tin...
> 
>aluminum, newspaper (not glossy inserts), all glass, labeled plastic, 
>I give em my grocery bags too.  
>
>So Chuck you in town?  welcome!  Give us a buzz some time....
>bob


#1, #2 Plastics, glass bottles, and cans (with labels peeled off) all go in 
one spot.

Clean dry newsprint (non-glossy) in another spot. 

Brown Paper bags and non-glossy, clean cardboard in another spot

Lawn and leaf clipopings in yet another spot.


THey are working on accepting more plastics but at the moment this is wahat 
we get.

Geoff

P.S. Welcome to town as Bob Said

    Is there any town near Acton that recycles more than just #1 and
    #2 plastics?
    
    c_i

Ours takes #4...

	West Boylston takes #1-#4 right Fog?

No number three in double you bee...

	Littleton takes #1, #2, and #4.
	I've joined the volunteer committee to recycle;
	We're trying to get more stuff going, but, it ain't
	easy...

    Sterling takes everything you can think of, except colored newspaper. 
    We even recycle our toilet paper roll cores!  After I get the compost
    pile going, I'd like to reduce our trash to 1 bag every 2 weeks.
    
    Of course, it's less than a drop in the bucket compared to my auto
    exhausts.  :^/
    
    Jamie

Read some disheartened news this morning re: recycling.  it seems that there
is a big glut of recyclable materials on the market because companies are not
using recycled material in their products.  in mass, there is talk of some
legislature that requires companies to use recycled materials in their
products.  only a few states do this today.  weld is in favor (surprisingly
for a repulbican, however, he has _lots_ of libertarian views, matter of
fact, he _could_ almost be a lib!).

recycling will only work if everyone plays.  all the businesses will cry
"extra expenses" and frown upon legislature of this sort, unforetunately.
only in "make a buck fast" america.

Any Co Sprngs heads know where I can take my recyclable plastic stuff?


BTW - Who's Weld?


Glenn

>BTW - Who's Weld?


Republican Gov. of Mass

    King Soopers, Glenn, takes that stuff in the springs. There is some
    controversy as to what they REALLY do with it, as per an article in the
    GAzzette a few weeks ago. 
    rfb

    
    re. .282
    
    I'm not a Colo Spg. head anymore ;-( but I used to take all my recycle
    stuff (papers, aluminum, glass and plastic 1-6) to King Soopers.
    
    They'll pay you for the aluminum everything else is voluntary.
    
    :-Chuck

    
    actually JC, the glut of recycled materials is kind of a blessing 
    in disguise, or at least a step in the right direction...  once upone a
    time, bus claimed it could not use recycled material because it wasnt'
    available or cost effective...  a glut of materials shows it IS
    available and it helps driuve the price down...  also, if not for that
    glut, legislation like the one you mentioned would never be
    introduced...  it's all part of nudging the process along a little
    at a time...
    
    				da ve_who_believes_in_changing_the_whole_
    				world_one_small_(recyclable)_piece_at_a_time

There is a lot of recycled material piling up. There are several problems. 
First, those holding the stuff want higher margins than they are able to get on 
the open market. If our tax dollars can pay for subsidizing milk production for 
vast abandoned salt mines and for building roads into public lands soley for 
the use of lumber companies to cut timber whose price is then additionally 
stabilized through more subsidies, certainly we could offer incentives to those 
who use recycled raw materials rather than new in the applications where their 
are currently gluts.  Personally, I beleive the industries which could use this 
stuff are purposely holding back so they can get a piece of the tax dollar pie, 
but I've been called an alarmist paranoid before.  

	Another problem is that there is no incentive to come up with new uses
for these materials. In the short, 4 year period since Kennedy was shot that a
democrat ran this country, their were tax breaks for companies who developed
energy-saving products and for individuals who used those products. It is
absolutely rediculous that those subsidies were taken away by the republicans
at the behest of the oil, gas and auto lobbies.  Otherwise totally
un-recoverable plastics could be used for insulation, for example, if only
there were subsidies to make them just a few pennies cheaper so it could
compete with new materials.  We simply choose to ignore the long-term cost of
using new materials vs. the short term investment to make viable the constant
recycling of our wastes. If we did make these easy investement (but hard in
terms of the leap of faith they require), these new industries would be the
growth industries of the future, but we've become too short-sighted and
profit-oriented to make even exploratory research funds available for prototype 
plants. Sad.

There are more problems and more complciated issues, but I'd be rambling....

    Fog,
    
    you're an alarmist paranoid...  lighten up...  :^)
    
    					da ve
    
    ps. i agree somewhat with what you say but i believe that this glut of
    material and the growing awareness really will lead to changes and real
    use of this stuff...

    re .287
    
    Milk production for abandoned salt mines?  Please enlighten me.
    
    Assuming you meant "or," milk subsidies are a tough one.  The family
    farm is quickly dying out in New England.  It's more than a job loss,
    there's a complete culture change going on in the Vermont hills.  It's
    very sad to see, but inevitable at this point.  remove the milk
    subsidies and at least half of the remaining family farms would be gone
    in a year.  Of course the government plays both ends by letting
    farmers use growth hormones to increase milk production, then shoring
    up the price.
    
    Jamie

RE: recycling. There was an article on this very subject in yesterday's Globe. 
    
>    Milk production for abandoned salt mines?  Please enlighten me.


	Some of the govt subsidies for dairy products go to actual purchases, 
mostly cheese and dried milk, which is stockpiled presumably for national 
emergencies. A very long time ago the govt started running out of space to put 
all this stuff, and started to use abandoned salt mines to this end. These 
mines are chock-full-o-cheese, billions and billions of pounds of it.

>    Assuming you meant "or," milk subsidies are a tough one.  The family >   
farm is quickly dying out in New England.  It's more than a job loss, >   
there's a complete culture change going on in the Vermont hills.  It's >   
very sad to see, but inevitable at this point.  remove the milk >    subsidies
and at least half of the remaining family farms would be gone >    in a year. 
Of course the government plays both ends by letting >    farmers use growth
hormones to increase milk production, then shoring >    up the price. 
    
	The real problem is argri-business,  whose mass-production methods make
farming profitable _without_ subsidies, yet they still get thge lion's share of
them never-the-less, furthur tarnishing the ability of the family farmer
culture to survive.  I'm no expert, but I do know there is new culture in this 
country affecting not only farmer's, but everybody in every walk of life: The 
little guy aint worth kaka and the big guy gets all the breaks. Trickle _that_ 
down, dammit.   :-)

>	Some of the govt subsidies for dairy products go to actual purchases, 
>mostly cheese and dried milk, which is stockpiled presumably for national 
>emergencies. A very long time ago the govt started running out of space to put 
>all this stuff, and started to use abandoned salt mines to this end. These 
>mines are chock-full-o-cheese, billions and billions of pounds of it.

Then I hope some of it goes to southern Florida and Louisiania this week!!!  
Probobly doesn't qualify, though. :^/

Scott

	If you want to support family farms, look into Community Supported
Agriculture.  This is where members of a community get together to support a
local farm.  In turn, the members of the farm community (i.e. the supporters)
split the produce of the farm.  All the farms I know of are bio-dynamic (as I
understand it, being organic is a necessary, but not a sufficient condition
for being bio-dynamic).  Some also have community gatherings and festivals,
tied to planting or harvesting.

	I know of at least three CSA farms in New Hampshire, and one or two
in western Mass.  "Farms of the Future" by Tragaur Groh (one of the farmers
in the Temple-Wilton Community Farm) is a book describing these.

Mark

RE:          <<< Note 96.292 by 11SRUS::MARK "Waltzing with Bears" >>>


Damn commies!




	:-)

Seriously, though. The time is ripe for a resurgence of the collective. With
the spectre of the Soviet Experiment behind us, pehaps we can once again not be
ashamed of those folks who worked very hard through the 30's depression era to
build a collectivist political force (only to be raked across the McCarthy-era
coals a decade or two later)...


Works pretty good for me.  :-)

	No!  It needn't be (and, IMHO, shouldn't be) a political force.  There's
no need for the government to get involved, and this way the associations are
free and voluntary.  Making it compulsory would be a VERY bad idea!

Mark

Yeah, yer probably right: the old absolute power dilemna all over again.  :-)

I've got plenty of dirt in my back yard -- any and all of you are welcome to 
come over and dig to yer hearts content...  

:-)

What's the deal with the TOWNS::ENVIRONMENTAL_ISSUES notesfile?  I keep getting
Invalid Login Info error 

Glenn

I try to do a little bit for the family farmer every week!

-jer  ;-)

    hey -jer, 
    i'd say at least 85% of this file does the same!!! but it's only a
    token gesture....
                       %^)rfb

>What's the deal with the TOWNS::ENVIRONMENTAL_ISSUES notesfile?  I keep getting
>Invalid Login Info error 


Try modifying to USDCDP::ENVIRONMENTAL_ISSUES

Scott

From:	CADSYS::DELNI::EXPAT::VNS "The VOGON News Service  11-Feb-1993 0408"
To:	VNS-Distribution
CC:	
Subj:	VNS #2765  Thu 11-Feb-1993

<><><><><><><><>  T h e   V O G O N   N e w s   S e r v i c e  <><><><><><><><>


VNS TECHNOLOGY WATCH:                           [Mike Taylor, VNS Correspondent]
=====================                           [Littleton, MA, USA            ]

                           Electricity From Algae

    Paul Jenkins, an engineering professor at the University of the West
    in Bristol, England grows his own electricity. His gadget, called
    Biocoil, produces crops of algae by suspending the organisms in a
    nutrient broth and circulating it through a clear plastic tube warmed 
    by sunlight. Some algae are continuously siphoned off, filtered,
    dried, then cropped into fine particles. These are pressurized and
    injected into a diesel engine, providing 85% of its fuel as it drives 
    an electrical generator. The carbon dioxide produced by the engine is
    recycled back to the Biocoil to feed the algae. Jenkins says the
    system should generate power as cheap as that from new coal-fired
    plants. Biocoil's maker, London-based Biotechna, heads a consortium
    that plans to finance a 600 kw pilot plant.
    {Business Week Feb 8, 1993}


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
        Please send subscription and backissue requests to EXPAT::VNS

    Permission to copy material from this VNS is granted (per DIGITAL PP&P)
    provided that the message header for the issue and credit lines for the
    VNS correspondent and original source are retained in the copy.

<><><><><><><><>   VNS Edition : 2765    Thursday 11-Feb-1993   <><><><><><><><>

Hey Jeff -


	Your father has an influential position at Tropicana, doesn't
	he????

	Well, can ya tell him to have them change the container used
	in 96oz version (big plastic jug) of the product?  You see, it
	is a #7 plastic - "other" and generally impossible to recycle.
	
	#2 are the most common and most recyclable - Tropicana should 
	move to one of these...

thanks!

:-)


environmental_volunteer_plastic_sorter_JCmon!


:-)

re: 96 oz. tropicana

i usually get the 64 oz. size instead, as it's typically (counter to what
you'd guess) cheaper per unit ounce than the 96 oz. size; just like the 6.5 oz.
(middle size) cans of tuna are always cheaper per unit ounce than the large
size

not that this has much to do with the recycling issue...

but here's a thought...

would you prefer to buy a plastic packaging which can be recycled, or a
cardboard package (which i don't think can be recycled if it was used to store
food) ?

- rich

> Your father has an influential position at Tropicana, doesn't he????

yup -- but he tells me that if you try and hold me for ransom, he'll tell ya
to keep me ;-) 

Oh and thanks, JC, for reminding me time to make some use of that pile of
coupons Mom sent me before they expire next week ;-)

> You see, it is a #7 plastic - "other" and generally impossible to recycle.
	
After my senior year in HS and freshman year in college I worked in
Tropicana's R&D lab as a grunt, and I asked that very question one time
while they were working on developing the things...

...answer is that the jug will always be 'other' since it's made of about 5
or 6 different kinds of plastic.  Oxygen barrier plastics layered together
with other food-friendly liners and more sturdy plastics for the outside.
If they didn't do this, the shelf-life of the stuff would be about a week,
instead of 12-16 weeks.

Companies like Minute Maid use(d) metal foil for liners in their cartons and
jugs -- try recycliing that!  8-|  


                       I STRONGLY ENCOURAGE EVERYONE 
                               ***NEVER*** 
              TO BUY FOIL-LINED PAPER AND PLASTIC CONTAINERS!  


Tropicana spent a _lot_ of money to do us and the planet this 'favor,' so
I'll stand behind them in their decision to spend a lot of money to use a
less recyclable plastic to get the same performance and product quality as
it they had gone with the cheap non-EC solution.  

> #2 are the most common and most recyclable - Tropicana should move to one
> of these...

Unfortunately, none of the common (read: cheap, easily recyclable)
industrial grade plastics are good enough oxygen barriers to be used in OJ
containers.  Besides, once something has food in it, many recyclers won't
touch it...  ...health hazard.  I'm pretty sure that's why nobody will
recycle pizza boxes.

Glass is ideal -- infinitely recyclable, no oil/chemicals used in
production, and minimal hazardous waste.  But it's too bulky and too heavy
to ship all the way from Bradenton, FL.


- jeff_an_EC_mon_too! 8-)

re: cardboard cartons

the cardboard cartons are worse than the plastic, and almost as bad as
foil-lined cartons -- but you can't recycle either... ...so they both end up
in the landfill!!!

8-|

- jeff

>Besides, once something has food in it, many recyclers won't
>touch it...  ...health hazard.  I'm pretty sure that's why nobody will
>recycle pizza boxes.

it seems that glass, plastic, and polystyrene can be recycled after coming
into contact with food, but not cardboard

>Glass is ideal -- infinitely recyclable, no oil/chemicals used in
>production, and minimal hazardous waste.  But it's too bulky and too heavy
>to ship all the way from Bradenton, FL.

i've seen tropicana in glass containers; i think it's just smaller containers
(32 oz., perhaps), in both OJ and grapefruit juice, i think, but i've never
seen the pure premium in glass

- rich

the tropicana in glass is the not_from_concentrate stuff, i think....  i use
one of the glass containers to make OJ from the frozen stuff.

i typically buy the frozen stuff because it has the least amount of
non-recyclable waste after the fact.  i can recycle both lids (have to cut
one of 'em out) .. and the remaining carboard, unforetunately, cannot be
recycled.

i buy OJ in the cardboard containers sparingly.

Cumberland farms uses regular clear, #2 plastic milk containers for their
OJ.  i wonder what allow them to get away with that while tropicana
can't?

Jeff, What I'd like to know is how is Ana?	:-)

    
    i had been told some "interesting" stuff about the paper vs plastic
    argument...  essentially what it came down to is that if it can't be
    recycled, plastic is sometimes better than paper-depending on how your
    community disposes of it's trash...
    
    this person had claimed that if your community incinerates (as
    worcester does) that plastic is better because after incineration
    there is less solid waste and fewr net emissions...  plastic 
    supposedly is more totally consumed in the process...  also, using the
    plastics would leave more trees... 
    
    thoughts?  i'm not sure myself...  i can see the logic in it, but it
    feels kind of strange the plastic could be  better...
    
    					       da ve	

>also, using the
>    plastics would leave more trees... 

but doesn't the manufacturing of plastic products have other nasty
environmental effects?

re: carton vs. plastic vs. frozen concentrate

unfortunately i've gotten spoiled by the pure premium, so i don't really
consider the frozen concentrate OJ worthy of buying; if i buy frozen juice
i get Dole pineapple juice (i decided to save money once by buying the store
brand instead of Dole and discovered it was so awful tasting that i barely
wanted to drink it)

- rich

    You can't recycle pizza boxes?  But the ones I get from Papa Gino's are
    nice corrugated cardboard and I always recycle them.  Note that 
    corrugated cardboard is the only type my town's recycling center 
    accepts.
    
    PeterT

    Doesn't burning of most plastics release certain nasty airborne
    chemicals, like cyanimides and carcinogens?
    
    tim
    

>    Doesn't burning of most plastics release certain nasty airborne
>    chemicals, like cyanimides and carcinogens?

Depends on the plastic.  

Clear polyethelyne (HDPE, LDPE) is just carbon and hydrogen.  If burned hot
enough and with enough oxygen, it will produce LOTS of heat, water, and
carbon dioxide -- no nasties.  FYI, PE has about 10 times the heat-capacity
as oil and over 100 times that of coal... ...and it burns clean.  Too bad
nobody's come up with the idea of using it for energy production --
actually, someone did but the 'Suits' realized it was too environmentally
friendly so they staged a little accident and the poor bloke was never heard
from again...

Other plastics like polystyrene have lots of benzene rings
and nitrogens/chlorenes/etc. in their molecular structure, and unless
they're burned properly, they can re-react to form some rather nasty
chemicals.  So yes, don't burn polystyrene in your fireplace!

With most plastics, the nasties can also come from the pigments and other
additives used in coloring, etc.  So unless you're one of those organic
chemistry wizzes, I don't suggest burning anything plastic... ;-) 


re: Ana

She got dissed from the labels in a fit of PCness a few years back.  Ya
can't have a topless woman in a grass skirt as your main logo and still keep
a good corporate image!  ;-)


- EC/OJ_man

    That was it...polystyrenes tend to break down into polychlorobenzenes
    (PCB) and cyanide (CN) when burned, both of which are pretty nasty. 
    Polyethylenes just burn like hell itself, and hence make for pretty
    poor household items (like the foam padding in furniture) because they
    incinerate your living room (and you) in less than a minute.
    
    College Biochem is pretty rusty for me - too many years ago, and too
    much research into other benzene compounds (like
    trimethoxyphenylethylamides) to remember much anymore... ;-) ;-)
    
    tim
    

> Polyethylenes just burn like hell itself, and hence make for pretty
> poor household items (like the foam padding in furniture) because they
> incinerate your living room (and you) in less than a minute.
  
The yellow_and_crumbles_all_over_the_place_when_old_foam_padding (tm) in
furnature is polyurethane, not polyethylene.  

Moisture-curing polyurethane is usually made from TDA or MDA
(Toluene-diisocynate or Methylene-diisocynate) -- VERY NASTY STUFF!!  It
will probably give you cancer if you breath uncured fumes -- and the
fumes/smoke from burning polyurethane is what kills a lot of people in
household fires.

  
> College Biochem is pretty rusty for me 

OBVIOUSLY!  8-) 8-) 8-) ...and many more 8-)'s


- Mr. Pendantic, Jr., dammit! ;-)

    I better shut up while I'm ahead, huh? ;-)
    
    Actually, the trimethoxyphenylethylamides had a lot to do with my
    changing majors too! ;-) ;-)
    
    Boring subject anyway - 'puters are much more inneresting....
    
    tim
    

    Besides, sprout, I was flunking biochem for the SECOND time when you
    were still learning to count to ten. (1973)...(lots of :-)'s)
    
    ...and now you know why...
    
    There's gotta be a better, more efficient way to embarass myself in
    public, than this.
    
    tim_the_ancient_pre-med_reject
    
    

    8-)
    

>So unless you're one of those organic
>chemistry wizzes, I don't suggest burning anything plastic... ;-) 

so, does that mean that you're declaring yourself an organic chemistry wiz,
or shouldn't i mention where all those DAT wrappers disappeared to a few
days ago?

- rich

re: <<< Note 96.318 by ROCK::ROCK::FROMM "GUMBO!!!" >>>
> so, does that mean that you're declaring yourself an organic chemistry wiz,
> or shouldn't i mention where all those DAT wrappers disappeared to a few
> days ago?

...I never took a chemistry class in college...

...and no, I don't burn DAT wrappers.  They're covered with paint, and
they're not made from polyethylene, dammit!  ;-)  I reuse them as padding
for mailing tapes instead.

- wrongly_accused

>...and no, I don't burn DAT wrappers.

so what was the trash in the box next to the stereo that got tossed into the
fireplace?

/r

> so what was the trash in the box next to the stereo that got tossed into
> the fireplace?

paper.  Anyone wanna see my DAT wrapper collection??? ;-)


- jeff_STILL_feelin'_the_hangover_%-(

Having domestic problems, dudes?

;^)

-dc

re   <<< Note 96.322 by NRSTA2::CLARK "Electric Music for the Mind and Body" >>>

>Having domestic problems, dudes?


yah, you guys should sell tickets, and beer, and popcorn and stuff and us
decheads can come to the fromm/maggard abode and kick up our feet and watch
ya'll duke it out !!


:-)

>yah, you guys should sell tickets, and beer, and popcorn and stuff and us
>decheads can come to the fromm/maggard abode and kick up our feet and watch
>ya'll duke it out !!

don't know about that, but perhaps it is time for another party at our abode

- rich

re: light-weight


...musta been sometin' in your porter... ;-)


- lampshade

re  <<< Note 96.326 by SUBPAC::MAGGARD "Have YOU changed your logo lately???" >>>
               -< Hey!  Where'd this earring come from?!?! 8-) >-

>- lampshade


so, did you done one of these at da pahty mon?

> so, did you done one of these at da pahty mon?

I dunno...  ...my light bulb was burnt out...  %-|

    phenethylamiNes, I hope
                ^
    
    Dr. Pedantic

Look for the union label ....

- DC

Article 69 of alt.hemp:
Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!sgi!cdp!treefreeeco
From: Paul Stanford <treefreeeco@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.hemp
Date: 22 Jun 93 17:49 PDT
Subject: Act to Legalize It
Message-ID: <1877600005@igc.apc.org>
Sender: Notesfile to Usenet Gateway <notes@igc.apc.org>
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1877600005:000:18284
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!treefreeeco    Jun 22 17:49:00 1993
Lines: 313


This is a bill to legalize, tax, and regulate cannabis cultivation
and over the counter sales in the State of Oregon. The following
legislation has been through over a hundred drafts and revisions,
over a period of more than three years. Feel free to use it, edit it,
print and circulate it, debate it, revise it, lobby for it, and adapt
it to meet your goals of legalization. I have researched all the
international treaties that govern cannabis regulation and I
believe that this is in full compliance with the provision of all
of these treaties (Single Convention Treaty of 1961, UN Treaty on
Psychotropic Drugs of 1974 and its amendments of 1989, etc.) For 
further details please email your inquiries to me at:
          treefreeeco@igc.apc.com
                                Sincerely Yours,  
                                D. Paul Stanford               
 
                    The Oregon Cannabis Control Act
 
     Whereas the people of the State of Oregon find that Cannabis
hemp is an environmentally beneficial crop that:
     (a) Yields more than four times more paper than timber, more
protein than any crop except soya beans, and more methanol than
corn;
     (b) Yields cloth and paper of superior strength and
durability without the application of pesticides during
cultivation and without production of cancer-causing pollutants
during processing; and,
     (c) Yields a substance that relieves the suffering of many
ill people without life-threatening side effects; and,
     Whereas the people find that, despite misinformation
concocted to justify cannabis prohibition, the courts of Alaska,
Hawaii and Michigan have noted presidential commission findings,
scientific studies, and learned treatises which:
     (a) Characterize cannabis as a relatively harmless,
nonaddictive euphoriant used for over 10,000 years without a
single lethal overdose by people seeking enhanced social
interactions, heightened perception and creativity, personal and
spiritual insights, and relief from pain and tension;
     (b) Demonstrate that moderate cannabis intoxication causes
very little impairment of psychomotor functions; reveal no
significant physical, biochemical, or mental abnormalities
attributable solely to cannabis use; and that long-term, heavy
cannabis users do not deviate significantly from their social
peers in terms of mental function;
     (c) Disprove the "stepping stone" or "gateway drug" argument
that cannabis use leads to other drugs; rather, that lies taught
about cannabis, once discovered, destroy the credibility of valid
warnings against other truly dangerous drugs;
     (d) Indicate that cannabis users are less likely to commit
violent acts than alcohol users, refute the argument that
cannabis causes criminal behavior, and suggest that most users
avoid aggressive behavior, even in the face of provocation; and
     (e) Declare that cannabis use does not constitute a public
health problem of any significant dimension; finds no rational
basis for treating cannabis as more dangerous than alcohol; and
judge cannabis to be, overall, the least harmful intoxicant; and
     Whereas the people find that cannabis is Oregon's largest
cash crop, indicating that cannabis prohibition has failed; and
     Whereas the people of the State of Oregon find that cannabis
does not cause the social ills that its prohibition was intended
to guard against; rather, that most of the social ills attributed
to cannabis result from its unreasonable prohibition which:
     (a) Fosters a black market that exploits children, provides
an economic subsidy for gangs, and sells cannabis of questionable
purity and uncertain potency;
     (b) Generates enormous, untaxed, illicit profits that debase
our economy and corrupt our justice system; and,
     (c) Wastes police efforts, clogs our courts, and drains the
public resources to no good effect; and,
     Whereas, the people recall that alcohol prohibition had
caused many of the same social ills before being replaced by
regulatory laws which, ever since, have granted alcohol users the
privilege of buying alcohol from state licensees, imposed strict
penalties protecting children, delivered alcohol of sure potency,
and generated substantial public revenues; and,
     Whereas the people hold that cannabis prohibition is a
sumptuary law of a nature repugnant to our constitution's framers
and which is, on its face, so unreasonable and liberticidal as
to:
     (a) Arbitrarily violate the rights of cannabis users to be
secure against unreasonable search and seizure as guaranteed to
them by Article 1, Section 6 of the Oregon Constitution;
     (b) Unreasonably impose felony burdens on the cannabis users
while the state grants special privileges to alcohol users, which
violates Article 1, Section 20 of the Oregon Constitution;
     (c) Unnecessarily proscribe consumption of an "herb bearing
seed" given to the people in Genesis 1:29, thereby violating
their unqualified religious rights under Article 1, Section 3 and
their Natural Rights under Article 1, Section 33 of the Oregon
Constitution; and,
     (d) Irrationally subvert the ends to which, in its Preamble,
the Oregon Constitution was ordained and the purposes, in Article
1, Section 1, for which our government was instituted; now,
     Therefore, the people find that the constitutional ends of
justice, order, and the perpetuation of liberty; the governmental
purposes of preserving the peace, safety, and happiness of the people;
and the vitality of the other constitutional provisions cited above,
demand the replacement of a costly, self-defeating prohibition
with regulatory laws controlling cannabis cultivation, potency,
sale, and use; defining and prohibiting cannabis abuse;
protecting children with a comprehensive drug education program
and strict penalties for the sale or provision of cannabis to
minors; funding a state drug abuse treatment program; and raising
substantial revenues for public education.
     Wherefore, be it enacted by the people of the State of
Oregon, the laws relating to cannabis are revised as follows:
     Section 1. This Act shall operate uniformly throughout
Oregon and fully replace and supersede all statutes, municipal
charter enactments, and local ordinances relating to cannabis.
     Section 2. Section 3 of this Act creates an ORS chapter 474
titled the "Oregon Cannabis Control Act." Legislative Counsel
shall move and renumber existing provisions of chapter 474.
     Section 3. 474.005 Definitions. As used in this chapter:
     (1) "Abuse" means repetitive or excessive drug use such that
the individual fails to fulfill a statutory or common law duty,
including but not limited to the duties owed by parents to
children, by motorists to pedestrians and other motorists, and by
employees to employers, fellow employees, and the public.
     (2) "Cannabis" means the flowering tops and all parts,
derivatives, or preparations of the cannabis plant, also known as
"marijuana", containing cannabinols in concentrations established
by the commission to be psychoactive, but does not include "hemp"
as defined by ORS 474.005(5).
     (3) "Commission" means the Liquor Control Commission.
     (4) "Cultivation" means growing the cannabis plant.
     (5) "Hemp" means the seeds, stems, and stalks of the cannabis
plant, and all other parts, products, and by-products of the
cannabis plant not containing cannabinols in concentrations
established by the commission to be psychoactive.
     (6) "Person" means a natural individual or corporate entity
of any kind whatsoever.
     474.015 Short Title.  This chapter may be cited as the
"Oregon Cannabis Control Act."
     474.025 Purpose of the Oregon Cannabis Control Act.  This
chapter shall be liberally construed so as to minimize the abuse
of cannabis; to prevent the sale or provision of cannabis to
minors; and to protect the peace, safety, and happiness of the
Oregon people while preserving to them the largest measure of
liberty consistent with the above purposes.
     474.035 Powers and duties of the commission, licenses for
cultivation and processing.  (1) The commission shall have the
powers necessary to carry out the provisions of this chapter. It
shall make such rules and regulations as will discourage and
minimize the diversion of cannabis to illicit sale or use within
the state, the illicit importation and sale of cannabis
cultivated or processed outside the state, and the illicit export
or removal of cannabis from the state. The commissions
jurisdiction shall extend to any person licensed under this
chapter to cultivate or process cannabis, but shall not extend to
any person who manufactures products from hemp.
     (2) The commission shall issue to any qualified applicant a
license to cultivate cannabis for sale to the commission. The
license shall specify the areas, plots, and extent of lands to be
cultivated. The commission shall equitably apportion the purchase
of cannabis among licensees and, unless applications fail to meet
expected demand, shall not purchase from any one licensee more
than one one-thousandth of the total purchased.
     (3) The commission shall issue licenses to process cannabis
to qualified applicants who submit successful bids. Licensed
processors shall, as specified by the commission, contract, cure,
extract, refine, mix, and package the entire cannabis crop and
deliver it to the commission's physical possession as soon as
possible, but not later than four months after harvest.
     474.045 Commission to sell cannabis at cost for medical
purposes.   The Commission shall sell cannabis at cost:
     (a) To Oregon pharmacies for use under a physician's order
for glaucoma, nausea related to chemotherapy, AIDS, or any other
condition for which cannabis is an effective treatment; and,
     (b) To recognized Oregon medical research facilities for use
in research directed toward expanding medical and sociological
knowledge of the composition, effects, uses, and abuse of
cannabis, to include studies of cannabis purchasers voluntarily
participating through state liquor stores under ORS 474.055.
     474.055 Commission to set price and sell through state
liquor stores.   The commission shall sell cannabis through the
state liquor stores and shall set the retail price of cannabis to
minimize incentives to purchase cannabis elsewhere and to
purchase cannabis for resale or for removal to other states.
     474.065 Qualifications of purchasers and licensees, effect
of conviction.  (1) To be qualified to purchase, cultivate, or
process cannabis, a person must be over 21 years of age and not
have been convicted of sale of cannabis to minors or convicted
under this chapter of unlicensed cultivation or sale of cannabis.
     (2)  Conviction for cultivation or sale of cannabis to other
than minors, when committed prior to the effective date of this
chapter, shall be expunged from the criminal records of the state
upon petition of the offender and shall not be grounds for denial
of an application for a license under this chapter.
     474.075 Disposition of license fees and profits from sale of
cannabis by state.   (1) The commission shall collect license
fees which shall be calculated and continually appropriated to
defray the commission's administrative costs of issuing licenses
under this chapter and the Attorney General's costs of litigation
in defense of the validity of this chapter's provisions and in
defense of persons subjected to criminal or civil liability for
actions licensed or required under this chapter.
     (2) All money from the sale of cannabis shall be remitted to
the State Treasurer for credit to a cannabis account, from which
sufficient money shall be continually appropriated:
     (a) To reimburse the commission for the costs of purchasing,
processing, testing, grading, shipping, storing, and selling
cannabis; of regulating, inspecting, and auditing licensees; and
of research studies required by this chapter; and,
     (b) To reimburse the Attorney General's office for costs of
enforcing this chapter's criminal provisions.
     (3) All money remaining in the cannabis account after
reimbursement of the related commission and Attorney General
costs shall be profits which the State Treasurer shall distribute
quarterly as follows:
     (a) Sixty percent shall be distributed to the state's school
districts, appropriated by enrollment, and shall continually
appropriated to fund all public education programs except drug
education programs under ORS 474,075(3)(d).
     (b) Thirty percent shall be distributed to the state's
institutions of higher education, appropriated by enrollment, and
shall be continually appropriated to fund and expand such
institutions to the end that more Oregon residents may attend and
tuition costs may be lowered.
     (c) Five percent shall be credited to the department of
Human Resources and shall be continually appropriated to fund a
drug abuse treatment program providing medical and psychiatric
treatment to drug abusers on demand and on diversion from the
courts. The director shall design the program in consultation
with the Council on Alcohol and Drug Problems.
     (d) Five percent shall be distributed to the state's school
districts, appropriated by enrollment, and shall be continually
appropriated to fund a drug education program which shall:
     (I)    Emphasize a citizen's rights and duties under our
social compact and to explain to students how drug abusers injure
the rights of others by failing to fulfill such duties;
     (II)   Persuade students to decline to consume intoxicants
by providing them with accurate information about the threat
intoxicants pose to their mental and physical development; and,
     (III)  Persuade students that if, as adults, they choose to
consume intoxicants, they must nevertheless responsibly fulfill
all duties they owe others.
     474.085 Commission to establish psychoactive concentrations
of cannabinols. The commission, based on findings made in
consultation with the Board of Pharmacy as to cannabinol
concentrations which produce intoxication and the economics of
residual resin extraction, shall establish reasonable
concentrations of cannabinols deemed psychoactive under this
chapter.
     474.095 Commission to set standards, test purity, grade
potency of cannabis, label contents. (1) The commission, in
consultation with the State Board of Pharmacy, shall set
standards which the commission shall apply:
     (a) To test and reject cannabis containing adulterants in
concentrations known to harm people; and,
     (b) To grade cannabis potency by measuring the
concentrations of psychoactive cannabinols it contains.
     (2) The commission shall affix to cannabis packages a label
which shall bear the state seal, a certification of purity, a
grade of potency, the date of harvest, a warning as to the
potential for abuse, and notice of laws prohibiting resale,
removal from the state, public consumption, and provision and
sale to minors.
     474.105 Commission may limit purchases. The commission may
limit the quantity of cannabis purchased by a person at one time
or over any length of time and may refuse to sell cannabis to any
person who violates this chapter's provisions or abuses cannabis
within the meaning of ORS 474.005(1).
     474.115 Unlicensed cultivation or sale, removal from the
state, penalties. Unlicensed cultivation and removal from the
state of cannabis shall be Class A misdemeanors, and cultivation
for sale, removal from the state for sale, and sale of cannabis,
without commission authority, shall be Class C felonies.
     474.125 Sale or provision to minors, penalties, exception.
The sale or gratuitous provision of cannabis shall be a Class A
felony, except when to a minor over 18 years of age under the
conditions provided by ORS 471.030(1) for alcohol.
     474.135 Fine as additional penalty. In addition to other
penalties and in lieu of any civil remedy, conviction of sale or
unlicensed cultivation for sale under ORS 474.115 or 474.125
shall be punishable by a fine which the court shall determine
will deprive an offender of any profits from the criminal
activity.
     474.145 Acquisition by minors, penalty. Except as provided
by ORS 474.125, the purchase, attempt to purchase, possession, or
acquisition of cannabis by a person under 21 years of age shall
be a violation punishable by a fine of not more than $250.
     474.155 Public consumption prohibited, penalty, exception.
Except where prominent signs permit and minors are neither
admitted nor employed, public consumption of cannabis shall be a
violation punishable by a fine of not more than $250.
     474.205 Commission to study methods of safe use, potential
for abuse, establish cannabis levels for presumption of
intoxication.  The commission, in consultation with the Board of
Pharmacy and the Council on Alcohol and Drug Problems, and by
grants to accredited research facilities, shall:
     (a) Study methods of safe use and the potential for, and ill
effects of, abuse of cannabis, and shall report its findings in a
pamphlet distributed at state liquor stores; and,
     (b) Study cannabis intoxication and, if practicable, shall
establish by rule levels above which a person shall be presumed
intoxicated.
     474.215 Presumption of negligence. In civil cases, a
rebuttable presumption of negligence shall arise upon clear and
convincing evidence that a person's intoxication by cannabis at
the time of injury materially contributed to the cause of injury.
     474.305 Disclosure of names and addresses prohibited.
Information on applicants, licensees, and purchasers under this
chapter shall not be disclosed except upon the person's request.
     474.315 Effect, Attorney General's duties. If federal law is
held to impede this chapter's full effect, unimpeded provisions
shall remain in effect and the impeded provisions shall regain
effect upon the impediments removal. The Attorney General shall
vigorously defend any person prosecuted for acts licensed under
this chapter, propose a federal act to remove impediments to this
chapter, deliver the proposed federal act to each member of
Congress, and urge adoption of the proposed federal act through
all legal and appropriate means.

    Am I the only one who feels that Walden Woods isn't worth saving?  If
    you've never been there, it's a small pond surrounded by a chain link
    fence, highways, and a dump.  Concord itself is an overrun 'burb
    with just about the snobbiest attitude you'll find in the home state of
    Brahmin snobbiness.  I almost forgot, there's also a re-creation of
    Thoreau's cabin that you can peek in.
    
    As for Henry David, his books give a highly romanticized accounting of
    his outdoorsmanship.  His biggest incentive to live at Walden was to
    avoid paying property taxes and he was notorious for showing up at
    friends' houses at dinner time.
    
    Jamie

    whats wrong Jamie, ya didn't get a good recording off the radio of the
    concert yesterday ? :')
    
    Well I do believe its worth it ! who cares how the people of Concord
    act...it still a place where you can take a walk see some trees, gaze
    over a small body of water....kick back and feel at peace....it doesn't
    have to be Walden Woods.....it doesn't have to be a big plot of land,
    it just has to make you feel good and on any givin' day you can go to
    this place and let your mind loose....so maybe it could have been
    someother place to save....but Walden Woods is a well known place by
    people all over the world and if it makes people see that a little
    place can be saved then we can grow and save more little places...and
    before we know it we might be saving one big place.....
    
    Chris

    Nahh, just happy to be back on board this sinking ship of a company.  I
    listened a bit but didn't tape it since I don't care for any of the
    performers.
    
    You're right, people seem to enjoy it, so what do I care?  I guess I
    just needed something to complain about.  It really doesn't matter,
    since it's the ideal that we're preserving, not the man himself.  The
    pioneer figure is a part of our culture and since we can't make a
    statue of an idea, we have to find heroes who fit the bill, even if the
    fit is imperfect.
    
    I take it back, but I won't cancel my USN&WR subscription (their
    publisher owns a big chunk of land that he wants to put an executive
    office park on).
    
    Jamie

I support the saving of Walden Woods.

How many big cities have a place that is less then 20 miles away as rural
as Concord is?  Not many, I would think.  If anything, it gives the city
folks a place to check out the woods.  And, it has also provided me a place
to enjoy my Mt biking - you can't Mt bike in the city!

I agree, Concord is a bit snobby;  but, if you lived there, you probably
would be snobby too...  it is all where you're from.  i grew up in Harvard
and 99 out of 100 times someone makes a comment along the lines of "oh,
you're a harvard boy, you must be loaded w/ money!" when i reveal where i
grew up.  i guess when you're on the outside looking in, the people you're
looking in on aren't that friendly - actually, this goes for most of the
cold northeast - westerners (Colo, OR, WA, Idaho) seems to be more friendly,
at least in my experiences....

    Back from vacation I thought I'd jump in here.
    
    IMHO, the Walden Woods preservation is less about saving a small patch of
    woodland and more about raising awareness about habitat preservation in
    general.
    
    Sure the issues around the Walden thing are real but the real value
    comes from the symbolic value of Walden.  Thoreau is considered the
    "father" of American environmentalism and as such can provide a
    rallying point for other preservation efforts.  
    
    Realistically, "saving" Walden won't make a big difference to anyone or
    anything in particular.  However, the fact that people care about it
    and are willing to do something about it gives the preservation
    movement a high profile way to get the masses to understand the need
    for preservation of all kinds of wild areas all over the world.  Maybe
    someone in France or Great Britian will be moved to do something in
    their country.  Maybe it will give hope and inspiration to
    preservationist in Eastern Europe the push they need to begin cleaning
    up their countries.
    
    Marv
    

    >><<< Note 96.334 by ZENDIA::FERGUSON "Your recipe is so tasty" >>>
    
    >>How many big cities have a place that is less then 20 miles away as
    rural
    >>as Concord is?
    
    On the east coast, very few.....go to Seattle, and you'll find much
    more rural places less than 10 miles away from the city.
    
    Hogan

You are right about that Hogan.  Here on the east coast, we polluted our 
shorelines with homes, buildings, etc.  When I went to OR, I was totally
psyched to find the opposite:  most of the shoreline was state/federal
parks...  awesome...

	I attended the concert on Monday night on a last minute request 
	and I must say it was an unbelievable performance!!!!
	
	My favorite part was when Elton John was singing "don't let the
	sun go down on me" and literally, from where I was sitting, the
	sun dropped below the stadium, choked me up.
	
	I thought all the acts were excellent.

	As for Walden woods...there is a *hell* of a lot more to Walden 
	than the fenced in area that surrounds the immediate pond, the reason
	for the fence is to prevent erosion because the place is so incredibly
	popular....many people from all over the world go there for many 
	various individualized reasons, it's almost a naturalists temple.
	The areas around Walden house a vast population of wildlife habitat,
	not to mention an incredibly clean underground aquafer that is vital
	to Walden/Whites pond, and the wetlands that are between them.
	As for Concord people, I bike there every day, noone bothers me,
	I don't bother them.  Walden project is just a small hint (hopefully)
	of other future area, preservation tactics.     
	 

	

		

So, did people pick up their trash at the concert?

- dc remembering the Earth Day event there ....

    Saving Walden Pond is a noble jesture...but what about the remaining
    10% of our National Forests that are old growth...i've been sending $$$
    to the Wilderness Society all this summer to help out in their effort
    to make sure the 'compromise' that Slick Willie is working out with the
    timber industry doesn't in fact accelerate the destruction.  Devestating 
    the rainforests of the Pacific Northwest and elsewhere is cause for much 
    more serious concern IMHO...
    
    ...and anyone see Frontline last night...they were cronicalling the
    dumping of high level radioactive waste off the coast of San Francisco
    during the 40's and 50's...100,000 barrels of high level radioactive
    plutonium & uranium were dumped just 5-10 miles outside of the Golden
    Gate...and the EPA is saying there's no need to be concerned, nor is
    there a need to fund any scientific investigation...
    
    Ya right....
    
    			dugo
    
    

	Sure, the pacific Northwest is a very deep concern for many people,
	including Walden fans.

	The land surrounding Walden was for *private* sale,Henly wanted to buy 
	it for preservation, and he's holding concerts to pay for it.  It's 
	not a bunch of hub'l'lub, nor is it a scam, it's plain and simple.  

	There's no doubt that Walden will serve as a pilot for future, larger 
	magnitude type private property trust purchases.

	Almost all the old growth forest lies in Gov. boundries and is not 
	for sale and will never be.  The old growth forest destiny lies
	in the hands of what the government wants to do with it, which 
	the public has some impact on, but not too much, Moreso, the 
	industries that have contracts to log it.

	I would not at all be surprised if you will soon see other projects
	similar to the Walden, but designed more for education, not $$$ for 
	purchases.  Look at how many concerts it's taken just to save 
	a small acreage of land by this method.
	 
	

    re:" almost all old growth forests....are not for sale and will never be"
    but they ARE up for lease, where the forest service LOSES mony on the
    contracts. Clinton (i refuse to call him SLick, yet) %^)
    is changing that. Recent article here in Colo stated that most private
    lumber companies will be put out of business (YA!) here. Also, the
    Mexican Spotted owl (no joke!) MAY nest in COlo old growth forests,
    which will put an end to ALL logging in those designated areas. 
    
    rfb

    Easier than tree spiking -- introduce spotted owls (or any endangered
    species) to regions you want to protect.  Once they're established,
    logging ceases.  The logging companies will fight all the way because
    the species were introduced, but by the time it gets through the courts
    everything will be old growth.
    
    The Breeding Program Gang

    ya but, kinda hard to "introduce" endangered species into an area 
    1.because there's not many of them to introduce, and 2.they (the
    species) usually does the living area choosing. like the Pipping
    Plover, never nested in Colo, until the lakes out east started drying
    up about 5 years ago. Now there are protected, new beaches where ya
    can't walk, fish, boat cause the plovers are nesting there now...
    but the plover choose that..not us Coloradians. (BTW, I'm on the
    Plovers side!) %^)
    
    rfb, phishin, phightin, and ph.....er, never mind!

    There is one organization that 'does' buy up land for
    preservation...it's the Nature Conservancy...all dues and funds go to
    purchase threatened areas to get them off the 'market' and out of the
    hands of developers.  They have focused more on wetlands because of the
    need to protect water fowl breeding and feeding areas.  It'd be nice to 
    be able to buy up National Forests to get it out of the hands of the 
    Government...
    
    As to Walden pond...like i said it's a noble jesture...but i think Don
    Henley and company could apply their visability to lead a much more 
    vigorous charge in other, more pressing, areas of environment 
    destruction...it could become this generation's Vietnam War Protest.
    
    Stop the Killing...of species and habitat...curb Human Population.
    
    As to Willie rfb, i'm taking a more pessimistic than opptimistic view 
    while i wait for him to revel his 'real' objectives.  At this point he
    seems to like to 'compromise' quit a bit to conserve his political
    capital...i understand it's necessary at times, but then again, if
    i were him i'd govern by referendum and really put some heat on
    Congress...
    
    Just my HO...
    
    			Dugo 
    
    

    
         good points dugo! i'd love to see statistics as what the world
      population (and usa poulation) was 500 years ago, 100 years ago,
      50, 10, 5 ect....this is one of my biggest fears. anyone know where
      i could get these stats?
                                                          ^dave

	Good Point Dugo,

	I would like to see the point where all countries, including
	all low developed countries, hit ZPG by the year of 2000. 
	The U.S. is estimated to hit ZPG sometime around 2030.  With 
	Aids, this process will speed in all nations...too bad it takes
	something like Aids to do this.  ZPG will better many many Lower
	Developed Countries lifestyles.

	I could see it now....

	Don Henly and the birth control tour....2000  ;-)
	
	Apparently Don Henly's primary interest was saving Walden woods
	for it's historical, as well as natural appreciation.  Not just 
	because it's a cool place.  Walden is a place that deepens many 
	peoples appreciation for the environment because of it's closeness
	to a major port city and the attraction it has to city folk.  I 
	see it as more an educational type thing.  It is an important place
	for people who are naturalists in particular.  Perhaps Henly is one.

    dugo...no govt will ever set you free.....but we gotta keep da faith
    until.....
    
    peace, 
    rfb

    Your right rfb...i guess i'm getting real damn cynical in my old age...
    DEC's downsizing and the political clamoring between conservatives and
    liberals has really taken it's toll on my outlook...
    
    Guess it's time to take a hike...one like Gerr's...*;')
    
    Love and understanding...
    
    				dugo 

forwarded...

.  From the National Arbor Day Foundation Newsletter:
   
   Enjoy a Guilt-free Christmas
   -------- 
   If your family is among the 36 million that will purchase a real Christmas
   tree this year [i.e. cut], you can do so with a clear conscience that the
   tradition is both environmentally correct and even patriotic.  According
   to the National Christmas Tree Association, 90 percent of all Christmas
   trees are grown on some 15,000 plantations, many of which are family
   operations.  These tree farms are found in all 50 states and employ
   100,000 people full or part time.  Artificial trees, on the other hand are
   manufactured mostly in Korea, Taiwan and Hong Kong, and are usually made
   of non-biodegradable plastics and metals.  The association points out that
   for each real Christmas tree harvested, 2 or 3 seedlings are quickly
   planted in its place.  Since young trees in their rapid growth years have
   a high rate of photosythesis, just one acre of Christmas trees produces
   the daily oxygen requirement for 18 people.  With approximately one
   million acres dedicated to Christmas tree production in the U.S., this
   translates to oxygen for 18 million people every day.
   ------------

   The article was accompanied by another article on recycling christmas
   trees as wood chips, as many towns do (ours included).  I was surprised
   to see the above article in the NADF newsletter.  Given the source of
   the info (The National Christmas Tree Assocation) my reaction is - believe
   it if you need it. In my family, we used the same non-biodegradable tree
   for over 30 years.  I don't know what country it was made in....

One year we got a live x-mas tree (root-ball and all!).

While digging a hole in the near-frozen ground was difficult, the tree
survived to this day!

- jeff

    Hi All,
    
    	something weird came to me yesterday that I felt like sharing with
    you all.....
    
    to start, this year I made a promise that I will not use a gas
    lawnmower, I am using my old trusty human powered push lawnmower, takes
    a lot out of me but it does a nice job on the lawn (this came about
    because the one my landlard gave me to use simply sucks, I almost have
    to take it apart everytime I went to use it last year and it has a bag
    on it and I hate baggers :'))
    
    well last night after doing the back section of the lawn I sat down
    with a nice cool glass of lemonaid (rilly) I was watching CNN and would
    ya believe they had a report on lawnmowers and other gas powered lawn
    tools...the focus was on the fact that the are causing 10% of the air
    pollution....some makers of lawn tools are tring to make the tools
    better at not polluting but the goverment has no regulations (so far) 
    on gas power lawn tools....My dad has been using en elelctric one for
    about 5 years and he like the way it leaves his lawn, but most people
    don't want to use one because it to hard (never mind the humanpowered
    ones) 
    
    I like using the humanpower lawnmower I have, right now the blade is ok
    but I will soon be in need of sharping it, anyone know how to go about
    this ? I don't wanna bring it to a shop to get this done (unless its to
    much trouble to do myself) any help would be wonderful....
    
    I have also noticed that while cutting the lawn with the push mower I
    don't sneeze as much, I'd guess cuz the cuttings are not being thrown
    into the air as far...
    
    I do mow a lawn for an older couple next door to my Mom & Dad's (they
    are both in there 80s) and I use their gas mower, which he gets tuned up
    every year. This year I notice it had a sticker on it which said
    something like it passed some type of test and it has the EPA seal on
    it....so I guess some places do try to make them somewhat friendly...
    But Im guessing that this test(if it is a test) is only done on
    something like 1% of the lawnmowers that are used in this country.
    
    thanks
    
    Chris
    
    ps; its dame good excur(down)size too :')

We use an electric lawnmower.

Jim

RE: Lawnmowers...

We just made an excellent investment.  Black and Decker has a cordless 
electric mulching mower.  It takes 20 hours to get a full charge and will 
cut for 90 minutes.  It took about 25 minutes less to cut our lawn than it 
did last year with a conventional gas powered mower.  It's lighter, quieter 
and there is no gas or oil to deal with.  The battery supposedly lasts 7 - 
10 years.

I highly recommend this mower.

Geoff

    ...is that the remote control one?

>      <<< Note 96.355 by SALEM::BURNS "how's 'bout a war on violence!" >>>
>                       -< switch to artificial turf ;^) >-
>
>    ...is that the remote control one?


No it's not remote controlled:-).  However for $2000 you can buy a solar 
powered "smart" lawnmower.  It has sensors and a computer chip in it.  You 
put one of those underground wires, that you use for electronic dog
collars, around the perimiter of your property.  Then you turn on the 
lawnmower and leave it alone.  it goes around your property, when it comes 
to an obnstacle it goes around it and then stores the information in the 
computer chip so it won't come to that obstacle again.  It has a small 
battery so that on cloudy days or under trees it will still cut.

ain't technology great:-)

    		EPA trims mower emissions
    
    Washington - What next ? Chain-saw cops? Garden gumshoes ?
    The EPA - the bureau behind automoblie emission standards - announced
    yesterday it has decided on emission standards for lawn mowers and
    other gas powered tools at the heart and grassy soul of American
    suburban life.
    "We're not taking away your lawn mower," Mary Nichols, EPA assisant
    administrator for air and radiation, said at a news conference. "We're
    not making you turn in your lawn mower if it doesn't meet the
    standard."
    And no, you won't have to take your lawn mower or chain saw or lawn
    tractor in for annual emissions test, Nichols said.
    The new standards, which go into effect Aug 1, 1996, will apply to
    manufacturers of these modern conveniences - many of whom were at
    yesterdays news conerence showing off mowers,weed wakers and other
    garden tools that already meet or exceed the standard.
    About 5% of air pollution comes from the nation's 89 million lawn
    mowers, garden tractors, chain saws and other gas-powered garden
    equipment, according to the EPA. More then 6 million tons of pollutants
    are spewed annually by this equipment, Nichols said.
    Manufactures are expected to meet the standards with current technology
    - primarily by improving the air and fuel mixture for engines.
    Nichols said the cost increase to consumers would be about $5 per
    mower, trimmer, chain-saw or other tool.

    Chris -
    	As far as sharpening your "human-powered" mower goes ya can buy a
    sharpener that you run down the blades a few times to put an edge on
    'em. Probably be able to find one at an Agway or maybe even HomeDepot
    type store. Not sure how much. Makes the job fairly easy tho.
    
    							-jeff

    I may be tool-handicapped, (Maybe NOTHIN!!)but i screwed up a
    good pushmower years ago sharpening it wrong....
    
    
    I just fixed our electric mower by bypassing the switch so it's
    continually on (hard on the electric bill, but hey..) I had to do it
    twice cause i twisted the wrong pairts of wires togetehr the first time
    and blew the fuse to our addition. and i used to be a technician!
    
    rfb

	Chris, I use a file to sharpen the blade on my riding mower.
	Works great, but I don't know about using it on a hand rotary mower.
	
	I can't wait till they perfect the grass that doesn't keep growing.
	That's the ticket ;-)

	/Ken	

Don't sharpen it all. Just adjust the strike plate inward. Alls ya need is 
a screwdriver, a beer, and some band aids...

:-)

re: Geoff K

what is the price for the battery mower you have?  sounds pretty cool....!

jc_mowerless

I like Ken's idea -- just bio-engineer a grass that stops growing after 1.5
inches -- but until then, buy a horse or a cow, but ya gotta bio-engineer
one that doesn't fart to preserve the ozone ;^)

Glennnn_who can't believe our society (especially in the arid western lands)
where we need to alter our natural environment by planting and manicuring 
water sucking grass that only needs to be mowed every week - but then again I
can believe it because I'm planting and fencing in a nice grassy area for my
little boy to play in, so he won't be in with pine cones and dangerous twigs
and branches and stuff. 

>I like Ken's idea -- just bio-engineer a grass that stops growing after 1.5
>inches -- but until then, buy a horse or a cow, but ya gotta bio-engineer

There's a grass that is popular in Florida called St. Augustine that
doesn't STOP at 1.5 inches, but it grows very, very slowly, at least
vertically.  But it also grows horizontally rather quickly, spreading out
to cover bald spots and such....kinda handy.  You can plant it in small
plugs and they spread out to cover the lawn.

If you've been to Florida, you've probably seen it - it's that really
course stuff you can walk across the top without even sinking in.

There are only two problems - it's very hardy, so it's tough to cut,
especially since it grows horizontally, and tends to take over in
areas it isn't wanted, like sidewalks, curbs, flower beds, etc...  You
don't need to mow it as often as some rye grasses, but you need a 
really serious edger (I still have mine)...

New Englanders refer to it as crab grass.  ;-)

tim

>              <<< Note 96.362 by BIODTL::JC "Gimmie a shorty!" >>>
>
>re: Geoff K
>
>what is the price for the battery mower you have?  sounds pretty cool....!
>
>jc_mowerless


$332 at Home Quarters including tax

Geoff 

Get a 5 kilwatt laser and a few mirrors and let THAT do the grass trimming...

...It would surely cut the clipping time down to mere milliseconds... 

...but I don't wanna even think about the price!!!!   :-)



- jeff

    I always thought it be way helpful to the weather dudes if we
    used the SDI lasers to burn the outline of the states into the
    ground.  It would make reading those weathermaps a lot easier.
    
    Anyway, that's part of plot my friend and I have for a movie where 
    the main subject is librarians with Turret's syndrome who raise 
    narcoleptic attack dogs.  The main character rides around on a 
    bicycle and smashes the windows on Bimmers and Snobs.  The guy is
    kind of freaky and carries a small notepad containing his critiques
    of the various bathrooms he's used in the area.  One special note
    comments on the wonderful chalkboards in ZK.
    
    We didn't know how to work in the white trash lady feeding her plastic
    ducks and chickens...it will probably be a small subplot, though.  Then
    there's the neighborhood that needs a nuclear reactor to support its
    Christmas Tree light habit and the politics in Washington that revolve
    around that.  Kind of a Pelican Syndrome thing but not quite as spoon
    fed.
    
    Anyway, enough of that.  Come see the Mighty Colors; tell me what
    you think.  I think we're playing at Martha's this Saturday.  Maybe
    it's Friday.  I dunno.
    
    Will

    
    need someone to play the librarian?
    
    

I'll play one of the narcoleptic attack dogs!

    re .367
    
    I like it.  Here's an idea -- I always have trouble picking out the US
    because of those two hangers-on countries which cling to us like
    suckling children.  Satellite images would be much easier to grasp if
    we blew up Canada and Mexico.  Then Alaska could be dragged south,
    which would save us big money on moving its oil around.
    
    Jamie

Just make 'em into states ... that way you could have the picture of a state
on the back of each card in a deck ...

    Like to be able to move them all around like on a PC .. you
    know, "click and drag"
    
    

"World for Windows (tm)"

Y'know, I wonder how many people throw cigarette butts out their windows
because they mistakenly believe the butts are biodegradable (not that it
wouldn't still be littering and a basically obnoxious thing to do)?  It'd
be nice if someone did an ad campaign that informed people of this.  That'd
probably make about a 1% difference, the other 99% consisting of folks who
just plain don't give a sh*t because to them, the world began when they
left their mother's womb and ends the day they're six feet under.

- DC

    >>people throw cigarette butts out their windows
    
    Nothing worse than when I'm cruising on my bike and people use their
    car windows as ashtrays. Ashes in the face isn't too cool. Not too
    mention that occasional still lit butt flung out the window an in my
    face.

>>>people throw cigarette butts out their windows

A smoker once told me she did it because she didn't like the way butts in the
ashtray smelled up the car!

>B-(


- jeff_hater_of_butts_..._well,_SOME_butts_:-)

    what gets me is that when you mouth "Don't throw yer trash out the
    window!" at 'em, you get back this this EVIL look!
    
    rfb

well, if you're stopped at a traffic light, simply get out of your car, pick it
up, and hand it back to them, saying something like "excuse me, you dropped
this"

- rich

re    <<< Note 96.377 by ROCK::FROMM "This space intentionally left blank." >>>
                       -< yes, i have done this (twice) >-

>well, if you're stopped at a traffic light, simply get out of your car, pick it
>up, and hand it back to them, saying something like "excuse me, you dropped
>this"


i've done this and nearly got myself into a fight with the dude.  the guy
was with his womon and i was with deb..   i told deb to hit the road so
she wouldn't get involved.... turns out the guy was all show and no action.
he picked up the trash... i can't believe the guy wanted to make a big
beef out of it with me...

    my "favorite" is "i have a new car and i don't want to mess up the
    ashtray".......  so throwing it out where it will sit for 10,000
    years is a better solution???  i think not...  a better idea would be
    to buy a seperate ashtray and use that i should think...
    
    i used to have an in-law who said (and practiced) "keep Rhode Island 
    clean...  throw out your trash in Massachusetts..."  it's strange
    somehow to see where some very intelligent and well meaning individuals
    draw thier own lines...
    
    					da ve

    
    It's tough these days to confront people in traffic, etc. 
    You never know who's carrying a crossbow and has an itchy finger.
    People WILL KILL you because they're so damn cool...
    My wife reminds me of it everytime I honk my horn. :-}
    
    As far as the cigarette litter-assholes (oops! I mean bugs) go,
    they have NO CLUE as to why you're blowing your horn. No clue. Sad.
    
    Steve-O_bigtime_horn_blower 
    

and why don't they just make filters outta some biodegradable substance...

I'd switch brands in a (cough, hack, hack) heartbeat....


Glennnn_who's butt's all end up in a landfill :^/

    Just a question of curiousity, How many smokers are there in Grateful?
    How many honestly have never thrown a cigarette butt out the window?
    
    chris

	i smoke. (i'll quit someday)
	my ashtray is full of butt-ends. where there is no ashtray, the
	filter ends up in my pocket.
	
	what irks me even more is idgits who throw them in the lake
	while fishing! Arrrgh!

    
    
    .....or in my beer at a party! Phbtbtbtbtbttb! :-P
    
    
     Yum.
    
     Steve-O_ex-smoker_(five years gone?)_who'll_NEVER _TELL_
            _some_hippy_gen_X'er_if_he's_littered!

I haven't thrown a butt out a window since sometime in college when I became
environmentally enlightened - over 8 years anyway.  Since then I've picked up
many butts thrown out by others -- mostly in areas where I like to camp or hike
or walk locally.  I know for sure that I've picked up LOTS more litter in my
lifetime than I've caused.   Most people that know me can attest to the fact 
that I am a very conscientious smoker, but admittedly less so when extremely 
inebriated.   Like when with someone who doesn't smoke, I usually will take my
smoking somewhere else, unless partying with the person and the person claims
to not care...

Glennnn 

I smoke and don't throw butts out the window anymore.  However I do smoke 
one of the two brands of cigarettes that do use biodegradable (i.e. all 
cotton) filters.

Geoff_who_smokes_Camels

>one of the two brands of cigarettes that do use biodegradable (i.e. all 
>cotton) filters.

What's the other???

re <<< Note 96.385 by ROADKL::INGALLS "may the four winds blow you home again" >>>



>Most people that know me can attest to the fact 
>that I am a very conscientious smoker, but admittedly less so when extremely 
>inebriated. 

i can attest and do appreciate!

    RE: note .380 by steve_o
    
    funny note, you horn_blower_you!
    
    and glennn is a very conscientious smoker
    rfb, who flips people off with a peace sign...when he remembers too
    (but hasn't smoked butts since 1974)

 Whelp I smoke. Can't say I've NEVER thrown a butt out the window.

 On thing I do do in the great out doors is knock the head off, stamp it out
 and put the butt either in a trash receptical or my pocket if the latter
 isn't available.


 shawn

> <<< Note 96.387 by ROADKL::INGALLS "may the four winds blow you home again" >>>
>
>
>
>
>>one of the two brands of cigarettes that do use biodegradable (i.e. all 
>>cotton) filters.
>
>What's the other???


Winston

    
    
    
    Help, please!  I'm in need of a subject for a mini biography for
    a school project. I'm looking for an environmental activist involved
    primarily in the cause of saving the rainforests....
    
    any suggestions? pointers?
    
    I need to submit a name, I can research later.
    
    
    thanks
    
    GreenSteve

re:<<< Note 96.392 by SALEM::MARTIN_S "Perpetual Smile..." >>>
>                -< procrastination: it's this student's motto >-
>    
>    Help, please!  I'm in need of a subject for a mini biography for
>    a school project. I'm looking for an environmental activist involved
>    primarily in the cause of saving the rainforests....

Bob Weir!

Seriously, does anyone remember the name(s) of the people who were on the panel
during the press conference before the Sept. 24, 1988 rain forest benefit at
MSG?

adam          

    
    Adam,
    
    :-) Thought of that. Actually, Jerry, Bob, and Mickey sat in
    on that.
    
    I may just use them. It would make the project even more
    interesting.
    
    
    Thanks 

	steve-o
	
	next note (around 300 lines for window users) is a list from the
	rainforest action network. dunno if it'll help. given a little
	more time you could probably find a bunch of stuff on the web.
	
	jay

===================================================

     RAINFOREST ACTION NETWORK INFORMATION SERVICE              
         Rainforest Action Network Fact Sheet             

==================================================

Tropical Timber

Pamela Wellner
Rainforest Action Network
450 Sansome, #700
San Francisco, CA  94111
Tel: (415) 398-4404
Fax: (415 398-2732

Simon Counsell
Friends of the Earth-UK
26-28 Underwood St.
London N17JQ,   
United Kingdom
Tel: 44 71 490-4188

Kate Heaton
Rainforest Alliance
270 Lafayette Street,  
Suite 512
New York, NY  10012
Tel: (212) 941-1900

Patrick Anderson
Greenpeace International
Keizergracht 176
1016 Amsterdam  
Netherlands

John Revington
Rainforest Information Centre
P.O. Box 368
Lismore 2480, NSW   
Australia
Tel: 61 66 21-8505

Chee Yoke Ling
Sahabat Alam Malaysia
19 Kelawei Road
10250 Penang
Malaysia
Tel: (04)375-705

Indro Tjahjono
SKEPHI
Tromol Pos 1410
Jakarta, 13014  
Indonesia
Tel: 62 21 471 1388

Yoichi Kuroda
Japan Tropical Forest  
Action Network
7-1-801 Uguisudani-cho  
Shibuya-ku, Tokyo 150
Japan
Tel: 81 3 3770 6308

Cattle Connection

Randall Hayes
Rainforest Action Network
450 Sansome, #700
San Francisco, CA 94111
Tel: (415) 398-4404
Fax: (415) 398- 2732

Norman Myers
Upper Meadow
Old Road, Headington
Oxford,  OX3 OSZ
United Kingdom
Tel: 44 (865) 750-387

Howard Lyman
Beyond Beef
1130 17th St., Suite 300
Washington, DC  20036
Tel: (202) 775-1132
Fax: (202) 775-0074

Jeremy Rifkin
Greenhouse Crisis Foundation
1130 17th St, NW #630
Washington, DC  20036
Tel: (202) 466-2823
Fax: (202) 429-9602

Scientists/
Endangered Species

Anne Ehrlich
Dept of Biological Science
Stanford University
Stanford, CA  94305
Tel: (415) 725 1853

Norman Myers
Upper Meadow
Old Road, Headington
Oxford,  OX3 OSZ
United Kingdom
Tel: 44 (865) 750-387

Hugh Iltis
Professor of Biology
University of Wisconsin
Madison, WI  53706
Tel: (608) 262-2792

International Development (World Bank) in Rainforests

Patricia Adams,  
Peggy Halward
Probe International
225 Brunswick Ave.
Toronto, ON  M5S 2M6
Canada
Tel: (416) 964-9223

Lori Udall, Bruce Rich, Korinna Horta
Environmental Defense Fund
1875 Connecticut Ave, NW, Suite 1016
Washington, D.C.  20036
Tel: (202)387-3500

Yukio Tanaka
Friends of the Earth-Japan
#408 United Apartment
4-3 Sakuraqaoka
Shibuya-ku, Tokyo 150 Japan
Tel: 03 3461 6522

Chad Dobson
Bank Information Center
2025 I Street, NW, Suite 522
Washington, DC  20006
Tel: (202) 466-8191

Barbara Bramble
National Wildlife Federation
1400 16th Street, N.W.
Washington , D.C.  20036
Tel: (202) 797-6600

Cathy Fogel, Larry Williams
Sierra Club
International Programs
408 C St. NE
Washington,,DC  20002
Tel: (202) 547-1144
Fax: (202) 547-6009

M.S. Zulkarnaen
WALHI (Indonesian Environmental Forum)
Jl. Penjerninan I/15
Kompleks Keuangan
Jakarta, 10210   
Indonesia

Hawaii Rainforest

Annie Szvetecz
c/o Life of the Land
19 Niolopa Place
Honolulu, HI  96817
Tel: (808) 595-3903
Fax: (808) 521-6841

Anne Wheelock
Big Island RAG
P.O. Box 1410
Pahoa, HI  96778
Tel: (808) 965-8039

Peter Vitousek
Dept. of Biological Sciences  
Stanford University
Stanford, CA  94305-5020
(415) 725-1866

Palikapu Dedman
Pele Defense Fund
P.O. Box 404
Volcano, HI  96785
Tel: (808) 935-1663

Emmett Aluli
P.O. Box 39
Kaunakakai, HI  96748
(808) 567-6278

Legislation on Rainforests

Brent Blackwelder,  
Jim Barnes
Friends of the Earth-U.S.
218 D Street, S.E.  
Washington , D.C.  20003
Tel: (202) 544-2600

Cathy Fogel, Larry Williams
Sierra Club
International Programs
408 C St. NE
Washington,, DC  20002
Tel: (202) 547-1144
Fax: (202) 547-6009

Jacob Scherr
Natural Resources Defense Council
1350 New York Ave., NW, Suite 300
Washington, DC  20005
Tel: (202) 783-7800

Indigenous People

Martin Khor
World Rainforest Movement
87 Cantonment Rd.
10250 Penang,  
Malaysia

Nilo Cayuqueo
South and Meso-American Indian Informatoin Center
P.O. Box 28703
Oakland, CA  94604

Chee Yoke Ling
Sahabat Alam Malaysia
19 Kelawei Road
10250 Penang
Malaysia

Marcus Colchester
World Rainforest Movement
8 Chapel Row
Chadlington, OX73 NA
United Kingdom
Tel: (44 60) 876 691
Fax: (44 60) 876 743

Jason Clay
Cultural Survival
53A Church St.
Cambridge, MA  02138
Tel: (617) 495-2562

Randall Hayes
Rainforest Action Network
450 Sansome, #700
San Francisco, CA 94111
Tel: (415) 398-4404
Fax: (415) 398-2732

Simon Muchiru
Africa NGO's Environmental Network  
P.O. Box 53844
Nairobi, Kenya
Tel: (254) 2 28138

Survival International
310 Edgeware Road
London W2 1DY  
United Kingdom

Zez Weiss
Amanaka'a Amazon  Network
P.O. Box 1419
New York, NY  10009-8903
Tel::(212) 219-2704
Fax: (212) 274-1773

Hydroelectric Dam Impacts in Rainforests

Lucia Andrade
Comiss o Pro Indio
Rua Ministro Go doy, 1484
S o Paulo-SP-05015
Tel: (0115511) 864-1180
Fax: (0115511) 871-4612

Owen Lammers,  
Juliet Majot
International Rivers Network
1847 Berkeley Way
Berkeley, CA  94703
Tel: (415) 848-1555

Brent Blackwelder,  
Jim Barnes
Friends of the Earth-U.S.
218 D Street, S.E.  
Washington , D.C.  20003
Tel: (202) 544-2600

Phil Williams
Phil Williams and Associates
Pier 35 Embarcadero
San Francisco, CA  94133
Tel: (415) 981-8363

Patricia Adams,  
Peggy Halward
Probe International
225 Brunswick Ave.
Toronto, ON  M5S 2M6
Canada
Tel: (416) 964-9223
Fax: (416) 964-8239

Temperate Rainforests

Native Forest Council
P.O. Box 2171
Eugene, OR 97402
Tel: (503) 688-2600

Ancient Forest Alliance
c/o The Wilderness Society
1400 Eye Street NW
Washington, DC  20005
Tel: (202) 842-3400

Western Canada Wilderness Committee
103-1530 West 6th Ave.
Vancouver, BC  
Canada V6J 1R2
Tel: (604) 683-8220

Sierra Club of Western Canada
620 View St., Rm 314
Victoria, BC  
Canada V8W 1J6

Headwaters  
P.O. Box 1075
Grants Pass, OR  97526
Tel: (503) 474-6034

Oregon Natural Resource Council
1050 Yeon Building
522 SW Fifth Ave.
Portland, OR  97204
Tel: (503) 223-9009

==========================================================================

Rainforest Action Network Information Service (RAN-INFO) is a
rainforest-related information service maintained by the Rainforest Action
Network (RAN).  RAN is located at 450 Sansome, #700, San Francisco, CA
94111. Tel:(415)398-4404. Fax:(415)398-2732. For information about RAN,  
send e-mail to "ran-info@econet.apc.org". To contact RAN staff, send e-mail  
to "rainforest@econet.apc.org".
==========================================================================

.

    Government's plans for final nuclear waste resting place threatened
    
    
    (c) 1995 Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.
    
    (c) 1995 Associated Press
    
    WASHINGTON (Jun 25, 1995 - 12:24 EDT) -- Already decades overdue and
    more than $4.2 billion spent, a proposed national burial ground for
    highly radioactive nuclear waste in Nevada is in danger of itself
    being buried -- by federal budget cutters.
    
    For years the government has tried to find a permanent resting place
    for an expected 86,000 metric tons of deadly spent fuel from the
    nation's civilian nuclear power reactors.
    
    Hundreds of tons of additional wastes, including large quantities of
    plutonium from the defense nuclear weapons program, also await a place
    to be buried.
    
    But the Energy Department program, which has focused on a site at Yucca
    Mountain northwest of Las Vegas, has floundered for years and critics
    say the government is no closer to building the repository today than
    it was in the mid-1960s when the search for a location began.
    
    The House, in crafting its seven-year blueprint for balancing the
    federal budget, dramatically cut spending for the Yucca Mountain
    project, providing only enough to put it into cold storage. The Senate
    provides some additional money, but the program's future remains
    tenuous.
    
    Even some of the Yucca Mountain project's supporters, who still have a
    2010 target for getting it built, give it only a 50-50 chance.
    
    "A repository will never be built at Yucca Mountain," declared Sen.
    Richard Bryan, D-Nev., who has called the plan ill-conceived,
    mismanaged, and troubled by technical and scientific uncertainties.
    
    Congress increasingly is shifting its attention to finding a temporary
    above-ground waste storage facility.
    
    Two key House chairmen -- Reps. John Kasich of the Budget Committee and
    Robert Walker of the Science Committee -- suggested it might be wiser
    and cheaper to concentrate on the interim above-ground site where spent
    fuel could be held for 100 years. Bills have been introduced in both
    the House and Senate to put a temporary storage site in Nevada.
    
    The political turmoil has sent tremors through the Energy Department's
    Yucca Mountain project office in Nevada where a huge boring machine--
    at the cost, by some estimates, of $60,000 a foot -- is digging a 
    massive tunnel into the desert rock.
    
    The tunnel, now more than 650 feet deep and 25 feet across, is designed
    as an underground laboratory to help determine if the rocky region can
    hold the nuclear material for tens of thousands of years. If 
    congressional budget cutters prevail, the work would stop, say Energy
    Department officials.
    
    "It cuts the program to the bone. The Yucca Mountain project will be
    gone as we know it," Daniel Dreyfus, director of the department's
    civilian radioactive waste management program, said of the House-passed
    budget.
    
    The confusion over the Yucca Mountain program's future comes as utility
    executives across the country are running out of room for spent fuel
    and demanding the government accept the waste as it agreed to do
    decades ago. The 30,000 metric tons of spent fuel at reactors today are
    expected to double by 2010 when Yucca Mountain -- if it survives the
    latest assaults -- is supposed to open, and likely to nearly triple by
    2030.
    
    "The waste is not going to disappear. We cannot wave a magic wand,"
    says Samuel Skinner, president of Commonwealth Edison in Illinois,
    which operates a dozen nuclear reactors.
    
    Even before the latest budget battles, the Yucca Mountain project was
    rocked by other controversies.
    
    Two scientists at the Los Alamos national laboratory went public with
    their concern earlier this year about the possibility of a plutonium
    explosion amid the volcanic rocks thousands of years from now, sending
    radioactivity into the air and into groundwater.
    
    Plutonium would remain very highly radioactive for 50,000 years and
    dangerous for as long as 240,000 years, say nuclear experts. But
    canisters are designed to keep the wastes from leaking for only 1,000
    years, relying on natural geological formations after that.
    
    The findings by the Los Alamos scientists are under intense review, but
    not yet discounted. But even if the explosion theory is disproved, the
    fact that it has surfaced at all could be a blow at a time when the
    program is battling to keep its funding.
    
    "The Energy Department has an obligation to disprove it," says Robert
    Loux, director of the Nevada Nuclear Waste Project Office.
    
    The government began its search for a place to bury long-lived nuclear
    wastes in the 1960s. The Atomic Energy Commission declared a group of
    abandoned Kansas salt mines as ideal, only to overlook -- as was later
    pointed out by state geologists -- that the site was riddled "like
    Swiss cheese" with holes that would allow radioactive material to wander 
    freely.
    
    A dozen years later as many as six separate sites were suggested,
    unleashing a political firestorm that forced the number down to three
    and then at the direction of Congress in 1987 to only Nevada.
    
    By then, more than $2 billion already had been spent.
    
    Nevada officials have accused the Energy Department of waging a
    campaign to get the Yucca Mountain site approved at the expense of
    objective scientific analysis. They have fought the project along every
    step.
    
    Since 1987, $2.2 billion has been spent on nuclear waste disposal
    programs, including $1.7 billion at Yucca Mountain.
    
    Congressional and independent investigators repeatedly have cited poor
    management, cozy relationships and conflicts of interest between
    government officials and contractors in a program often described as
    unfocused, in disarray.
    
    In 1992, Joel T. Hall, a retired Air Force general and a program
    consultant, in a scathing letter to then-Energy Secretary James Watkins
    called the program "a disgrace ... (that) is doomed to failure."
    
    He accused managers of tailoring their data collection to support a
    successful license application, instead of determining objectively
    whether the site is scientifically suitable. For example, he wrote, one
    contractor working to determine if the site was suitable already had a
    contract to get the site licensed and built.
    
    The Clinton administration revamped the program's focus on site
    suitability, sped up drilling and vowed to determine whether a
    repository is suitable for Yucca Mountain by 1998 with construction to
    be completed by 2010.
    
    Last month, a consultant's review conducted for state utility
    regulators concluded that the Energy Department still has "failed to
    inspire any significant level of public trust and confidence" in the
    program.
    
    There have been other concerns such as the region's susceptibility to
    earthquakes, what the Nuclear Regulatory Commission staff called
    "poorly understood" volcanic activity in the area, and the NRC's
    concerns about "substantial gaps" in scientific data.
    
    And critics note that even with a proposed capacity of 70,000 metric
    tons, the Yucca Mountain site still would not be able to accommodate
    all of the civilian spent fuel expected to have accumulated -- not to
    mention the government's weapons-related wastes.

    sick....at least there would be a site for future shows in
    Nevada...sigh...
    
    
    rfb

    I'm out the door right now but tomorrow I'll dump a lot of stuff I know
    about Yucca Mtn., the radwaste disposal effort, and a bunch of
    that-there...
    
    
    Mike (whose wife -- the Hot Blonde(tm) -- worked at Yucca Mountain for
    about four years)

Subject: Top 10 Enviro faux pas

These are the top 10 "environmental" laws introduced by the 104th Congress.
They're not very funny, but there is a certain irony involved..

10)  Selloff BLM and possibly national forest and park lands to States and
private parties.  Hansen (R-UT) introduced a bill to sell off these lands
in bulk.  In support of it Doolittle (R-CA) told LA Times "we should
drastically shink the size of Redwood Natl Park, transfer some to the
county and sell the rest."

9)   Make 90% of Utah's BLM wild lands available for development.  HR1745
(Hansen, R-UT) and S.884 would open 20.2 million out of 22 million
wilderness acres to development and never allow them to be considered as
wilderness again.  70% of Utah's population supported a bill that would
have preserved 5.7 million acres. Also, dams, gas pipelines and ORV use
would be allowed in what IS designated wilderness.

8)   Transfer Mojave National Preserve, just established under CA Desert
Protection Act, back to BLM.  Lewis (R-CA) and Skeen (R-NM) introduced an
amendment to eliminate the S600,000 budget allocated to NPS to manage the
preserve.

7)  Impose 7-year freeze on land acquisition.  This stops efforts to buy
out inholdings on wild lands.  The freeze will cost more in the long run
(assuming the goal is Not to elimate park lands) as inholding properties
appreciate or are snatched up by developers and "entrepreneurs."

6)  Building roads in National Park and Wilderness areas.  Hansen (R-UT)
introduced HR2081 which would permit states rights-of-way to build roads
through Parks and Wilderness areas.

5)  Limit federal biologists input in endangered species decisions.  Gorton
(R-WA) introduced S768 to disallow use of the endangered species act to
protect ecosystems and eliminate the input of federal biologists to actions
designed to protect endangered species.  Interior Secretary Babbit has
called this a "repeal of the Endangered Species act."

4)  Designate grazing as "primary use" of BLM lands.  Domenici (R-NM)
introduced S852 which would displace current "multiple use" policy and give
cattlemen free rein on BLM lands.  Subsidized of course.  Also extends
grazing permits from 10 to 15 years, allows restricted public access,
blocks current requirements for improved watershed conditions and
water-quality standards, and eliminates citizen challenges of damaging
grazing practices.

3)  Conduct massive "salvage" timber cut on national forests.  An amendment
attached to the "recission bill" by Gorton (R-WA) and others mandates a
dramatic increase in logging of national forest lands, directs the Forest
Service and BLM to begin "emergency" "salvage" logging operation, cutting
as much timber as "feasible" and (this is the kicker) suspending all
forest-protection laws, thus denying citizens the right to contest it's
legality.  As of Oct 26th this allowed timber interests to open thousands
of acres held up in court actions.  An additional 62 ancient forest "sales"
(e.g. subsidized timber mining permits) will now go forward in OR, WA and N
CA.  All this despite S1 Billion net cost to Fed Gov't between 92-94 (S7.2
Billion between 1978-91).

2)  Oil drilling in Arctic NW Refuge.  Included in the Budget
Reconciliation bill is authorization for drilling in the refuge, allowing
infrastructure for 1000s of workers (incl 4 air strips, 11 production
facilities, 100 miles of pipeline, 380 miles of roads and 100s of oil
wells) to be developed in what has for aeons been Caribou calving grounds
and wolf and grizzly strongholds.  This action was tucked into the
reconciliation bill, just as the "salvage timber" operations were tucked
into the recissions bill, to avoid public votes on issues that have strong
public support.

** and the #1 "environmental" move by the illustrious 104th congress is...

1) Creating a commission to recommend National Parks for closure.  Hansen
(R-UT) declared 150 of the 368 park units "need to be dropped" and actually
said that "if you've been there once, you don't need to go again."  In the
tradition of James Watt as Secretary of the Interior, Anne Burford in
charge of the EPA, Ed Meese as the nation's top cop, and the fox watching
the hen house, Hansen is chairman of the House subcommittee on national
parks, forests and lands.

These are just the top 10 - there are many many more (including S1054
(Murkowski R-AK) to expand logging and road building in the Tongass
National Forest, HR1310 (Obserstar D-MN) to open the Boundary Waters Canoe
Area Wilderness to motorboats and snowmobiles and to remove protective
status for Voyagers National Park, legislation to redefine wetlands as
only!those lands permanantly inundated, ETC, ETC).

The people responsible for these short-sighted actions for short-term
profit were elected and have accepted money from timber, mining, grazing
and development interests for re-election purposes.  Many are up for
re-election next year.  They can all be un-elected. Drop them a note
reminding them, and to encourage your reps to do the right thing.

Thanks - feel free to distribute this far and wide..

    special interests... docha just love it? 
    
    Hansen from Utah is owned by mining pretty much, and the "development"
    they refer to in the BLM lans and such is mining...
    
    the washington gent is definitely pandering to the timber industry,
    and NM has had a big ranching lobby for years that has been trying to
    get ranchers free riegn on the "open range"...  apparently the paltry
    grazing fees they have to pay now are too much...
    
    BACKPACKER magazine has documented a lot of this stuff for years and 
    reported it to thier readers...  
    
    did you know, that Nevada, one of the largest states in the Union,
    has LESS national forest/park land than little New Hampshire????
    
    "once you've been there, you don't need to go again..."  feh...
    
    why am i reminded of Wavy Gravy's quote to the effect of "i firmly
    believe that Nobody is in washington right now working hard for my best
    interests" (from his "Nobody for President" campaigns)...
    
    					da ve

    how f*cking sad..........

    .401 by DWEST
    
    >did you know, that Nevada, one of the largest states in the Union,
        has LESS national forest/park land than little New Hampshire????
    
    I think this fact (although true!) is a little misleading. I lived in
    Nevada for a while (in the Humboldt National Forest, no less) and there
    just ain't many trees there. Really. It's mostly desert. The Humboldt
    Nat. Forest is split up into several small chunks - not because they're
    trying to develop what's in between the chunks, but because there ain't
    no trees in the basins. The national forest covers the mountain ranges.
    
    Most of the area outside of the forest is BLM land. Obviously, that's
    not as well protected as Nat. Forest, but no trees=no forest. Nevada
    has the 3rd highest percentage of federal land vs. private land in the
    US, if I remember right. I may be remembering wrong, but it's
    definitely up there in that ranking.
    
    Just a little point I thought I'd throw in - but yes, I am shocked by
    them laws! Well, can't say I'm shocked. Or even surprised. I suppose
    disgusted is more like it.

    yes, Nevada has a lot of federal land, but federal does not mean
    protected...  BLM land is not protected, and that's what most of Nevada
    is...  as you rightly point out, there ain't many trees in the
    desert... :^)  but that's why i said "forest/park"...  the nat'l
    forests and parks are protected...  BLM lands are "managed" (some might
    say that's a euphamism for "exploited") by the feds, not protected...
    
    i think it's a shame that a stae that has as much beautiful wilderness
    (desert may not qualify for forest but it will make wilderness) has
    so little of it protected...  but then again, thanks to the mines, we
    do now have mountains where holes used to be, and vice versa... :^/
    
    					da ve

    speaking as an ex-desert rat........the desert is a forest. The trees
    are just alittle scragglyer and some have stickers......the desert is
    much more fragile than a forest environment. and the desert of Utah, at
    least from Grand Junction to the Neveda Border is freakin be-u-t-ful.
    and should not be destroyed. 
    
    rfb

    
    I like that idea. TONS of Nevada could be turned into wilderness. It's
    not suitable for grazing (ain't no grass, neither) and there's
    certainly plenty of land w/ no roads. Bee-yoo-tee-full country.
    
    Wilderness is well protected, too. (Unless this dang bill goes
    through.)
    
    Either that or they'll turn it into more supersecret air bases like
    they already got in southwestern NV.
    
    Jim
    who_used_to_get_woken_up_at_night_by_something_that_didn't_SOUND_stealthy

    re:.401:
    
    >    did you know, that Nevada, one of the largest states in the Union,
    >    has LESS national forest/park land than little New Hampshire????
    
    While this is strictly true, (although it may not be now that there is a
    new nat'l park in Nevada,,, Wheeler Peak, I believe is the name) it is
    a bit misleading. Because the Feds in actuality own about 80% of
    Nevada... the BLM is by far the largest landlord in Nev. Also,
    Lake Mead is a Nat'l Recreation Area although I do not know exactly
    the acreage involved.
    
    BTW just because land is reserved as nat'l forest does not mean it is
    off-limits to grazing. Having been a fire lookout in the Apache N.F. in
    New Mexico for two years I can definitely attest to this fact. Only nat'l 
    parks are sacrosanct.
    
    Also BTW... 44% of New Mexico's 70+-million acres are also owned by the
    Feds.
    
    Please note that I am definitely a tree-hugger and believe that what
    the GOP (Graft, Oppression, Platitudes) is doing is criminal...
    
    I firmly balieve that tha last words apoken by the last human being on
    this planet, screamed into the hopelessly polluted air, will be 
    "May God Damn Newt Gingrich to hell forever!"
    
    ...mike
    

    Sorry for my seeming repeat of facts... I REP'ed as soon as I read .401
    instead of wading thru the rest of the string.
    
    ...mike_whose_personal_name_used_to_reflect_his_birthplace_in_an_arid_area
     (BornInTheDesertRaisedInTheLionsDen)

    we'll let you  repeat the part about damning Newt Gingrich to hell tho
    mtd...
    
    
    
    
    chris

    OK...
    "Damn Newt Gingrich to hell!"
    
    Glad to oblige
    ...mikey
    
    

    mna, that sounds like the next batch of t-shirts to me!!!!!
    
    
    rfb no smileys attached

    
    Real bummer down off Moonstone Beach in Rhode Island.  I was on the
    beach yesterday with the family checking out the oil disaster.  The
    magnitude of the loss of wild life is amazing.  The beach was littered
    with dead lobsters, starfish, sea clams,etc...  They had the hazardous
    waste people trying to clean up the salt ponds (the most fragile and
    environmentally sensitive areas).  
    
    Lindsey was so upset and kept telling me to do something to help all
    the dieing(sp) creatures.  The smell of the oil was so thick, it was
    overpowering.   The slick is headed for misquamicut today.  What a drag.
    
    All you can do is sit back and hope that mother nature can rebound,
    once again.  

	I've been following the news (on the radio) about this since Friday, 
	Mark - what a bummer, indeed.  I can't imagine walking the beaches
	and smelling the oil, and seeing the death...  What will happen to
	fish?

	why don't they build those oil tankers with double hulls?  wouldn't
	that help prevent these spills?

	Debess

    I thought that the double hull thing was a requirement after the Valdez
    spill?
    
    that really does suck

    
    This was a single hull unmanned barge.  The tug that caught fire and
    let the barge go adrift was owned by the same company that owned the
    barge.  They say they will assume complete responsibility for the
    disaster.  We shall see.
     
    I believe that there was pending, if not passed, legislation to require
    double hulled ships.  I am very concerned that our new congress will
    continue to erode environemental legislation, because it is too
    restrictive and counter-productive to business.  This bullsh!t pisses
    me off to no end.   
    

    
    Oh yeah,  
      One more thing - as someone just pointed out off-line.  Moonstone
    was a clothing optional beach for some time.  I kinda liked the name 
    Moonstone.  But that's another conversation.
    
    `	Mark

    I've been thinking about ya'll all weekend, MNELSON. Esp Lindsey,
    knowing how she would always make ya put the starfish back in the ocean
    so they could live. Sad. I'm setting here looking at a couple of
    pictures of Patty and I on the Westerly Beach and it's very hard for me 
    (not being in tune with the ocean, etc.) to imagine the dreck caused by 
    oil. Do some of you rememebr the midnight trip to the beach when Patty
    and I were stayin at the Nelsons?? I don't even want to try and
    imagine standing there tonite with that surreal sound of the waves
    washing up on a dark beach with the smell of oil everywhere. 
    
    Tell Lindsey to keep the faith...
    
    rfb

    The irony of Moonstone getting clobbered is that for many years
    there's been an environmental battle - some say political - between
    those who like to use it for nude sunbathing (large crowds there
    every summer) and those who wanted it protected for the sake of
    the piping plover (an endangered bird).  Now it looks like both
    sides lose.

    ps On TV last night they had phone numbers you could call to
    help out.

    i think the double hull IS a requirement on tankers but not barges
    now..  not sure though...
    
    one thing that's kind of a blessing with this spill is that it's home
    heating oil and not crude...  less impact, easier to clean up,
    evaporates faster...  ok, so "blessing" maybe a little strong, but
    hopefully the area can rebound quicker...
    
    					da ve

    
    The media blackouts on the spill last Friday night and Saturday morning 
    were real cute.  I guess after a few commercial airliners flew over
    Saturday morning on their way to Boston and all the folks aboard saw how 
    massive the spill really was...the truth about the magnitude was
    coughed up real quick. 
    
    I must be getting cranky in my old age cause my tolerance of humans 
    violating mother nature is wearing extremely thin. 
    
    Tom, if you hear anything more on those phone numbers it would be 
    greatly appreciated!!

	the President of France announced yesterday that they will not be 
	doing any further planned nuclear weapons testing...

	Debess

    What does France need nukes for, anyway?  oh yeah, they got 
    invaded.

    Well, it still made me sick to see the ocean swell with the
    force of the explosion.  Better under than over the surface,
    I guess.

    
       > Well, it still made me sick to see the ocean swell with the
       > force of the explosion.  Better under than over the surface,
       > I guess.
    
    Yes, I'm sure all the marine flora and fauna had a wonderful time
    frying in the sea of unstable isotopes.  I guess the plethora of
    already existing nuclear data was not good enough...they had to do it
    themselves just to make sure. Paris would have made a dandy
    experimentatal ground if you ask me.    

yeah, but France has to blow things up in the South Pacific, about as far away
from Paris as you can get.  Doesn't do much to gain my respect...

PeterT

    on a more positive environmental note (if yer not a rancher)...
    14 more Canadian Timber Wolves were released in Yellowstone and
    different areas of Idaho last weekend. These complement the 20 living
    there now, a product of last years relocation and 2 females having
    litters. 
    
    Tiffany is a member of Sinapu (Ute word for wolf) whose goal is to
    reintroduce the wolf to Colorado, not to be confused with her
    association with Mission:Wolf, whose goals are education about the wolf
    and how they and wolfdogs are not pets. 
    
    
    rfb

    
    Now that is good news!

 
 
         This Sunday is Earth Day !  The things you do in your daily life
         CAN make a difference.  (I got these stats from a book that's about
	 5 years old, so they're probably different today, and unfortunately,
	 they're probably worse)...
 
         Did you know that:
 
         - over half the phosphates in our lakes and streams come from
         detergent - eventually these bodies of water can "die" as a
         result when the bacteria to decay the resultant algae uses
         up the oxygen.  Liquid detergents are generally phosphate-free.
 
         - you could take a long shower every day with the water you
         might waste by letting the tap run while you shave and
         brush your teeth.
 
         - Americans use 2 billion disposable batteries every year.
         Most contain mercury - a highly toxic substance.  Batteries
         thrown out with the trash can either release mercury into the
         soil or be incinerated and release it into the air.  There
         are rechargeable batteries.  Alkaline batteries should be
         recycled as hazardous waste.
 
         - the average homeowner uses 5 to 10 lbs. of toxic chemicals
         per lawn.  We are endangering the songbird population, as well 
         as polluting our groundwater.  There are organic pesticides
         available and the grass clippings themselves are a natural
         fertilizer.
 
         - Americans produce enough "styrofoam" cups every year to circle
         the globe 436 times.  CFCs are often used in the process of creating
         the "foam" - these are known to deplete the ozone.  Styrofoam is
         completely non-biodegradable; it just won't go away.  The best
         alternative would be to bring and use your own coffee cup.  The 
         next best alternative would be to use paper.
 
         - it takes an entire forest - over 500,000 trees - to supply 
         Americans with their Sunday newspapers every week.  If everyone
         in the US recycled even 1/10 of their newspapers, we would save
         about 25 million trees a year.
 
         - one out of every $11 that Americans spend on food goes for
         packaging.  In fact, we spent more on packaging for our food 
         last year than American farmers received in net income.  Some
         simple ways to buy to have a positive effect on the environment:
                 buy eggs in cardboard, not styrofoam, cartons
                 look for the "recycled" logo on paper packaging
                 buy in bulk - it's cheaper and uses less packaging
                 buy beverages in glass or aluminum containers, and recycle
                 avoid plastic containers
 
         - every year, Americans throw away enough office paper to build a
         wall 12 feet tall, stretching from L.A. to N.Y.C.  Most paper can
         and should be recycled.
 
         - if Americans reduced their meat intake by just 10%, the savings
         in grains and soybeans could adequately feed 60 million people -
         the number who starve to death, worldwide, each year.
 
 

Any Earth Day stuff going on this weekend?  The weather is (finally)
supposed to be gorgeous....

    
    Thanks for posting that debess.  Lawn chemicals and styrofoam
    packaging piss me off beyond belief...fuel for my fire! :-)
    

Hi Debess,
 
>        (I got these stats from a book that's about 5 years old, so
>	 they're probably different today, and unfortunately, they're
>	 probably worse)...

I agree with the message, but there might be some reason to be
slightly optimistic...for example:

>        Most contain mercury - a highly toxic substance.

No arguing this fact, but in recent years the battery manufacturers have
been trying to lower the mercury content.
 
>        - it takes an entire forest - over 500,000 trees - to supply 
>         Americans with their Sunday newspapers every week.  If everyone
>        in the US recycled even 1/10 of their newspapers, we would save
>        about 25 million trees a year.

I believe the use of recycled newsprint has been increasing over the
past few years, especially as the cost of raw pulp has gone up.
 
>        - if Americans reduced their meat intake by just 10%, the savings
>        in grains and soybeans could adequately feed 60 million people -
>        the number who starve to death, worldwide, each year.

Well, while we might not be doing our share in this area, think of the
impact the Brits are making these days!!!

Dan

yes, thanks for those figures Debess...  i'd be interested
in seeing some mroe recent stuff though...  it seems, at least
in my little corner of the world, that people are a lttle more 
hip to the problem than they were in years past...

on a related note, Worcester got an award for it's recycling program...
best in the state i think...  :^) :^) :^)

as for earth day happenings, i know that this sunday in Institute Park
in worcester there's some earth day happenings...  last time i went they
had acoustic bands (a friend of mine's acoustic band is playing...  anyone
remember Jeff Miller, Bruised Oranges old banjo player?)...  i think they
are also handing out tree seedlings...  i helped my daughter plant one in my
parents back yard...  it's still pretty small, but getting bigger every year! :^)

				da ve

On the long road to Tampa with my mom a coupla weeks ago, we stopped
overnight in Santee South Carolina, which is a big golfing community.  We
got into this heated discussion about golf courses (I used to own a house
in Tampa on a golf course - who wudda thunk it? ;-).  I maintain that
they're a collosal waste of real estate, but more importantly they're major
sources of pollution, especially in Florida.  Florida has a very fragile
ecosystem, closely tied to the water supply.  Golf courses are sprayed
every week with chemicals - fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, and
partially treated sewage effluent for irrigation.  It seeps into the sandy
soil, into the aquifer (which is usually only about four feet down), and
pollutes the water supply.

Stamp out golf courses.

Of course, we had this argument over dinner in the middle of a very quiet
hotel restaurant, filled with elderly golfers... No f*ckin' sense of
humor...

tim

    One good thing about golf courses:
    
    they preserve open space (just like cemetaries).
    
    /bruce

> I maintain that they're a collosal waste of real estate, but more
> importantly they're major sources of pollution, especially in Florida.

You're right...the Utne Reader recently had an article about this,
called "Golf War Syndrome".  An unauthorized excerpt follows:

 "Today's perfectly manicured rolling green courses require massive
  amounts of land, water, and chemicals. Most U.S.  courses use 1,500
  pounds of pesticides a year; that's seven times the amount used by
  farmers. Add to that a laundry list of fertilizers, herbicides,
  fungicides, and other chemicals. And when it rains, it pours: Runoff
  from golf courses has been found to have contaminated nearby groundwater,
  lagoons, lakes, and wetlands. The golf boom is causing pollution and
  social dislocation, but teed-off environmentalists and local-rights
  groups are starting to fight back."

The whole article is at http://www.utne.com/lens/atc/15atcgolf.html

Dan

re:  earth day

Dunno what day is earth day but....

BUT:

    The free WBOS Earth Day concert at the Hatch Shell takes place on
	Sat., Apr. 27 at 11:30 am.  Acts include Los Lobos, Dr. John,
	John Wesley Harding, Bruce Cockburn, The Rembrandts, John Hiatt, 
	Jonatha Brooke & the Story and Daniel Tashian.

    I say golf, but STOP the things that Tim mentioned to make the greens
    look so fake...there's alternatives out there..
    of course this comes from a non-golfer (I always wanted
    to try and hit those bright orange balls with my 12 gauge as they went 
    zingin by, though, fat chance i'd hit them at that speed)
    
    Newest Rolling STone has an article/interview with Jimmy Buffet about
    how the sugar industry is killing the Everglades...according to Jimmy,
    it's only a few more years and we can kiss the Everglades good-bye...
    last year an article in Nat Geo said the same exact things..
    
    
    sigh
    
    rfb

    Bruce's open space argument is a good one, *IF* courses would meet
    enviromentatlists half-way. Here in Colo SPgs, the courses are full of
    wildlife..deer, lots of foxs (four-legged) and tons of rabbits and
    everything that preys on them from hawks and owls to coyotes and even
    the occasional mt. lion. And since the "no new taxes" lobby convinced
    everyone here in town that open space is not needed, it's all started
    dissapearing....
    
    now if the lions would take out a few golfers here and there just to
    keep the population down...   %^) <-----note
    
    rfb

The big thing about the everglades was the Army Corp of Engineers, thirty
or forty years ago.  They set up a series of canals and water management
districts to control the flooding and drain the swamp...literally.  The
problem was, it's not really a swamp.  It's a big, wide, shallow river that
runs from Kissimmi all the way past Homestead and into the Caribean... 
They diverted so much water for so long, they've permanently changed the
ecology of the entire region - millions of square miles of ecosystem...in
order to have more land for development, for sugar cane, for cattle
(another big cash crop down there), and for golf courses, of course...

They really screwed up - didn't realize they were draining the swamp when
the just thought they were controlling the floods...

tim

    yep... that's what Nat Geo said too, if i remember right...
    
    the army corp of Eng have screwed up ALOT of places in the name of
    progress,, as well as put thousands at danger because they now have the
    flood plains "under control"...ya right...
    
    rfb
    
    Tim...did i tell ya that mystery is a hard SOB to corrupt???  %^)

Speaking of golf corses, in BOylston there was a place called Barlin Acres 
which had beautif abundant acres of hardwood. We looked into havong our 
wedding there and they, besides being booked, had just been sold. The land
was sold to a developer who is building a golf corse there. Great amounts of 
habitat (as well as some phenominal cross country skiing) is being destroyed 
as this forrest is being virtually clear cut. It is terrible. And to make it
all that little extra bit worse, there is a large golf course the than one 
golf course lenght away.

	Geoff

    
    In Scotland (where golf was invented) it's a no no to use chemicals 
    on the courses. 
    
    We here in America have a serious case of glamour disease...
    
    "I wonder where we'll be when the bills hit"

    Mr. Bill doesn't have all that steller of a record either, if I
    rememebr right, Bruce. And where's the environmental vice-president
    these days??? Granted, the Repubs are much worse, but we
    have a president that was elected on environmetal plateforms and I seea
    failure to act. 
    
    at least we here in COlo will have clean air for awhile..the wind's 
    blowing 60-70 mpg here at CX03 this morning.
    
    rfb
    

    re batteries
    
    Not disputing the dangers of mercury, but aren't most batteries in use
    still the "carbon-zinc" variety? I'm always a bit suspicious of
    combined factoids like "we use x million batteries per year" and "some
    batteries contain mercury".
    
    Australia has a long history of attempting to reengineer the
    environment and totally screwing things up. In an effort to make desert
    lands farmable, they eventually killed off all animal life in the
    Murry-Darling river system ('bout the same size as the Mississippi).
    
    Now I hear that an experimental virus that was being tested on a
    isolated island as a possible means of controlling the rabbit
    population has "escaped" onto the mainland. While the tests showed that
    it was effective against rabbits, they had not yet determined what else
    it may kill...
    
    gary

               <<< Note 96.444 by STAR::HUGHES "Captain Slog" >>>

re:  mercury content of batteries.,

I think almost ALL alkaline batteries contain some amount of mercury.
they are making them better (less merc) all the time but still they 
have some mercury in them.  Read the side of the battery...
"this battery is 99.075% mercury free"....

bob

    re:experimental virus
    
    oh great! Monkeys escapeing in Texas with eboli virus and now an
    unknown in Australia....I'm more and more convinced that the end of us
    all will be caused from some weird desiese or virus and NOT from
    "mutual destruction."
    
    rfb

Investigators: Young campers started Colo. fire

BUFFALO CREEK, Colo. - Falling temperatures and rising humidity
helped slow a 10,000-acre forest fire, which may have been accidentally
started by a group of young campers. 

U.S. Forest Service officials said those who started the fire could face up to
six months in jail and be handed a bill for $350,000 in firefighting costs. 

Fire investigators said they were preparing to interview four to five
youngsters who called to say their campfire may have caused the fire that
began Saturday in the Pike National Forest, 30 miles southwest of Denver. 

"They didn't start the fire on purpose," said the Forest Service's Ed
Nesselroad. 

By back-burning undergrowth and using the weather to their advantage, 700
firefighters, some in water-dropping planes, kept the fire from advancing
Monday. 

Temperatures were mostly in the 70s, at least 20 degrees lower than
Saturday, while humidity was at 68%, up 60 percentage points from the
weekend. 

"We're trying to hit it hard while the weather is cooperating," said Forest
Service spokeswoman Susan Haywood. 

Though officials said the fire was about 30% contained by Monday evening,
there was concern that a weather front expected to move in Thursday could
whip up wind and reignite flames. 

At least 12 structures, including two homes, were destroyed as the fire
charred a two-mile-wide swath. Hundreds were forced to flee the forest. 

On Monday, 75 people were evacuated from the Spring Creek area, but the
Forest Service said Buffalo Creek residents were being allowed to return
home. 

Elsewhere, officials in northern Arizona said leftover branches and stumps
set afire by loggers - possibly months ago - may have sparked a wind-driven
fire in the Coconino National Forest that charred 7,700 acres. 

The smoldering embers had been buried under snow in February but were
insulated by the soil, the Forest Service said. The fire was about 80%
contained late Monday night and should be fully contained by Thursday. 

By The Associated Press

    
    
     I could see the smoke from the Buffalo Creek fire from my house on
    sunday! Today they say the fire is 80% contained....
    
    Some of the people living in that area are amd that there was no
    burning ban in place before this happened. It has been dry in this area
    all winter, no big dumps of snow and no spring rain, then it got hot
    for spring tine and windy prime conditions for forest fires. Camping is
    going to be no fire time this summmer.
    
    Divide Dave

    yep...that fire is on the other side of South Park from Tumbledown,
    which is quite awayz away, thank goodness. 
    
    rfb

    GOVERNMENT REACHES $22M DEAL WITH PIPELINE FIRM
    
    SYRACUSE, N.Y. - A Connecticut company agreed Thursday to pay $22
    million in fines and penalties for spoiling hundreds of streams, rivers 
    and wetlands in upstate New York while building a 370-mile pipeline. 
    The fines against Iroquois Pipeline Operating Co. stemmed from construction
    in 1991 of a pipeline that pumps natural gas to 3.1 million homes in New 
    York, New Jersey, and New England. Iroquois, based in Shelton, Conn., was 
    accused of failing to obey federal permits that required it to protect the 
    environment and restore it to its pre-construction state.

    
    The Governor of Rhode Island declared a state of emergency in Westerly
    (my home town) due to an infestation of mosquitos infected with Eastern
    Equine Encephalitis.   People have been instructed to stay indoors as
    much as possible and especially avoid being outside at dusk and dawn
    and away from shady areas.   If you must be outside stay fully covered
    and use deet on any exposed areas.  The schools were delayed by 1 hour
    this morning to prevent kids from being out at dusk and morning
    kindegarten was cancelled.
     
    They are scheduled to begin ground spraying this morning and arial
    spraying Monday.
    
    Heavy stuff - those who get EEE have a 50% fatality rate!!
    
     

I heard sumthin about this on the RADIO (EEEGads) today...this may be wrong, but
1 outta every 100 'squiters in the state of RI has it???

Rage with RAID

    
    Wow!
                                                
    EEE...mainly spread by horses.
    
    This happened once before about 13 years ago.

    
    >    is there a way to test/treat horses, and reduce the supply of
    >    infectious agent?
    
    	Absolutely...hopefully there is already an effort underway.
                                                                   

    
    The mosquitos are infected via contact with tropical song birds that
    migrate north in the summer, I believe.  There is a vaccine for horses.
    However, the disease is very deadly to non-vaccinated horses - I hear.
    
    	

	MNelson,

	stay outta the shade and watch out fer the skeeters .

	I love Westerly and 'specially Misquamicut beach. twas
	the 1st beach I ever went to. I'll never forget how BIG
	the ocean 1st looked. many fond memories despite one lousy
	run-in with Johnny-Law @paddy's Wigwam.


	Toby

    EEE isn't particularly deadly to humans, is it?? My mom has talked
    about outbreaks in Texas when she was a little girl...they didn't even
    innoculate people in those days, only horses! 
    
    I second the sentiment from Toby about Misquamicut Beach and Westerly,
    what a beautiful place. Patty and I talk of taking another vacation there
    often. 
    
    Mnelson, U take care of those little ones and Lisa, (I guess Lisa could
    be considerd a "little one" %^) SLAP DEM SKEETERS!!!!
    
    
    rfb

    hey Toby...
    
    been there lately?  
    
    	it *still* looks big...  :^)
    
    					da ve

	da ve,

	h'aint been there in a yeah...

	Toby

>  EEE isn't particularly deadly to humans, is it??

It's pretty serious and can be fatal. Otherwise people wouldn't
be getting concerned.

PeterT

    the news reports keep saying that EEE is fatal to about half of
    those who get it.
    
    I think that some of the people treated by Oliver Sacks with L-Dopa
    in the [60s?] and  described in the movie w/Robin Williams, had
    EEE prior to their cataleptic[?] conditions set in.
    
    /bruce

    
    
    /bruce
    
    You got the name close enough to understand...
    
     There is a couple of fights going on! The one I assumw you heard about
    is the Taylor ranch logging operation. Its private land that is being
    clear cut and causing strams to fill with dirt from run off. 
    
     There is a rich rancher in the valley down there that wants to pump
    water out of ground and over the mountains to feed the front range.
    This is the one that is not making the news(yet), the framers in the
    valley don't want that to happen as it will lower the water table and
    make farming very hard, also the area is full of small ponds that water
    fowel and other animals use that would most likly dry up with the
    lowering of the water table.
    
    Colorado is a very diverse area going from green mountains to lush
    valley's to high desert in a very few miles that make taking water from
    1 area effect others very rapidly.
    
    I'm sure rfb will add more when he gets in.
    
     Divide Dave
               

    along the same thread as the Aral Sea from the former Soviet Union's
    irrigation efforts.
    the waters receeded 50 miles last year alone
    
    good articl in the Globe on Sunday about it

    yep, Divide Dave is mostly right. This guy tried this once before and
    was shot down by the State and Environs fighting together for a change. 
    This guy now has a more "defined" plan that shows some of the previous
    concerns of the valley residents eleviated....as far as he and his
    backers are concerned, anyway. He's had studies done, which he payed
    for out of his pocket (he's already a capitalist millionare twice
    over). But old time valley residents are totally against this. Actually
    the project is in the San Luis Valley, which the SAnge de Cristo's
    border. The people there have ancestry back to before this area was
    part of the Mexican LAnd Grant form Mexico after some war.
    
    The TAylor Ranch thang, the residents hunted, fished, cut wood, and
    recreated on this parcel for 100 years...some guy buys the land from
    the original land holder and fences it off to public use...his right I
    suppose, but see previous discusion about valley residents and the
    ancestry....everyone got along until the rich "cattle barons" moved
    in,,,there's been gun fire as recent as last year. 
    
    Growth is out-of-control in COlo...one of Patty's distributors of
    Blue-Green Alge is moving from Albaqurque (sp) to Texas Creek Colo! A
    town that used to be a country store, fly-fishing shop and a church!!
    
    Call some place paradise, kiss it good-bye.....   
    
    
    rfb
    

    I always wondered where Sangria comes from.
    
    ;-)
    

    Sange De Cristo...bring down the rain..
                                              Robert Hunter (Mystery Box)
    
    From the COlo Spgs Gazette..
    
    A millionares plan to pump billions of gallons from a massive San Luis
    Valley aquifer to cities along the Front Range might be killed by state
    lawmakers. 
    
    On Wednesday a bill aimed at barring transfers of water from...won
    ..approval in the COlorado House...cleared 41-24 and moved on to the
    Senate.
    
    Bill sponsered by Lewis ENtz, R_Hooper (Hooper????) , a potato grower
    in the valley...
    
    Boyce (milionare) ...backing from San Francisco investment firm, has
    already sunk $17 million into the Baca Ranch, which covers part of the
    aquifer, and some $2 million in engineering studies.
    
    
    a previous similar plane..was dismissed by the state water courts...
    
    

    
    >    what's the scoop in the battle of the North Carolina
    >    timber baron and the farmers in the Sangria de Christo
    
    Love that name.  
    
    The blood of christ mountains. 
    
    Probably names that for the soils red tint (although the skiing 
    there is out of this world!)	

    re; Sange de Cristo (bring down the rain!)
    
    when the Spainish came up from Mexico into this are, the red soils is
    what gave the area, Colorado, it's name. As the sun came up one morning
    on the exploring party and shone on the still snow covered southern
    range mountains, the sunrise turned the snow red, and since the
    Spainish, being great believers that God had given them manifest
    destiny (hmmmm, sounds familiar??) over this new land and the savages
    that lived here...Sange de Cristo

from r.m.gd


The following is a letter that the San Francisco Chronicle published on
Tuesday, April 8, 1997. At the end of the letter I have assembled a list
folks you can contact to voice your support of the government buying the
entire 60,000 acres not just the token 7,500 that is presently being
negotiated. Included are e-mail and snail mail addresses.

--------------Begin Letter as Published---------------------
(Intro by Chronicle) This is a letter to Charles Hurwitz, CEO of Maxxam
Corp., which owns part of the Headwaters Forest, the largest stand of
unprotected ancient redwoods on Earth. The federal and state governments
have tentatively agreed to buy 7,500 acres of the Humboldt County forest
for 380 million.

Dear Mr. Hurwitz
Maybe 30 years ago, I was on one of my first band tours. We were in the
Pacific Northwest, between somewhere in Washington and some other where in
Oregon. The road took us to the lip on a ridge, from where we could see
around us for many miles in all directions. To the west, we could see a
weather front moving high clouds in from the Pacific. To the north and
south,, where the front came parallel with us, we could see a mist rising
up from the forested foothills all around us, and when this mist joined
with and seeded the clouds passing overhead it turned to rain and snow,
which then fell on the mountains to our east. Scientists call this regular
phenomenon evapo-transpiration. I wish you could have seen it.
	It was breathtaking to behold, but as we watched, we had a firm
realization that we were witnessing something more beautiful than our eyes
could ever take in. We saw how the rain fell to Earth, where it mixes with
sun, soil and air; and there rises the grandest of all life forms--the
forest, awesome in its size and complexity. The forest, in turn, holds the
moisture until the next storm front comes through, when again the mist
will rise, the clouds will seed, and rain will fall. Life causes life.
Heaven and Earth dance in this way endlessly, and their child is the
forest.
	And so there we were, epiphanously watching the grandest and most
glorious dance of life-- of which we are just a tiny part -- awed by a
magnificence without beginning, without end...
	Until a couple of years later, when we were making the same trip,
and we came to the same place, but the forest was gone; now the land lay
bare. The same weather patterns move through, but now no mist rises up to
seed the clouds, and rain no longer falls so much on the mountains to the
east. I was still pretty young, but it seemed altogether wrong to me that
we should destroy something so big, so far beyond our understanding. What
unimaginable arrogance!

	DO THE RIGHT THING. THE GOODWILL YOULL GENERATE... WILL COME
BACK TO YOU.
	
	I also realized then and there that weather is a life form as
well. So is the Earth. Our culture tends to overlook this because they are
far too big to understand or control, but our Native American forbearers
knew quite well when they turned their gaze to the sky that they were
looking at the face of God. They knew that below their feet lay the
mother-goddess Earth. They knew that heaven and Earth are our
grandparents, and that we are children of the forest; it was there our
species originated.
	Now you own, and intend to destroy, the last and best of these
ancient forests. Like Shakespeares Shylock, you have a legal right to
extract your pound of our mothers flesh, in board feet. But the legality
doesnt make it right; not nearly. This policy toward our environment is
disastrous. And so, we the people of the society you live among, must call
on you to stop this practice. Can you hear us?
	Do the right thing. Sell to the American people the 60,000 acres
that make up a sustainable, viable forest at a reasonable price, or just
give it to us. You can afford it, even benefit by it. The goodwill youll
generate from such an act will come back to you many times over.
	Perhaps you should go and sit for a while in one of your
clear-cuts, and think this over as you listen to the desolate sound of the
wind as it blusters unhindered past your ears, bereft of the trees that
once tamed it. Then go and spend some time in the magnificence of the
ancient forest you plan to destroy and perhaps you will hear that voice
much older, wiser, deeper and gentler than ours -- its there.

	I hope to hear back from you soon on this.

	Respectfully,

	Bob Weir
--------------------END LETTER----------------
I have assembled a list of folks you can contact if you are so inclined:

Barbara Boxer (senator of California)
Diane Feinstein (senator of California)
Bruce Babbit (secretary of interior)
The White House

EMAIL FOR SENATOR BOXER
senator@feinstein.senate.gov


THE WASHINGON DC OFFICE OF SENATOR BOXER
United States Senate
331 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20510
Phone: 202/224-3841
Fax: 202/228-3954

EMAIL FOR SENATOR BOXER
Senator@Boxer.Senate.Gov

THE SAN FRANCISCO OFFICE OF SENATOR BOXER
1700 Montgomery Street
Suite 240
San Francisco, CA 94111
Phone 415 403 0100
Public Fax 415 956 6701

THE WASHINGTON DC OFFICE OF SENATOR BOXER
112 Senate Hart Office Building
Washington DC, 20510
PHONE 202 224 3553

E-Mail FOR THE PRESIDENT, VICE PRESIDENT AND FIRST LADY
www.whitehouse.gov/WH/EOP/html/principals-plain.html

Address for snail mail to the White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave. 
Washington, D.C. 20500 

E-Mail FOR SECRETARY OF INTERIOR BRUCE BABBIT
bruce_babbitt@ios.doi.gov

SNAIL MAIL
U.S. Department of the Interior
1849 C Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C., 20240

    excellent....