Conference rdvax::grateful

    Are you a bagels kind of guy, or a doughnuts kind of guy?
    
    

    It is for this reason that I think Homer Simpson lives somewhere west
    of the Alleghenies... I *believe* we will see a geographical
    distribution on the answers.
    
    Me, I've always thought that donuts are the way to go... especially
    Spudnuts (tm) which were a (now-definct) chain out West... best donuts
    in the country.
    
    ...michael T' "Spare-Tire"Head

     once again, choice c...  whichever is in reach...  :^)
    
    				da ve_another_spare_tire_kind_of_guy

    bagel
    morning 
    noon
    or nite

    
    Like 'em both, but since I have to choose for the sake of this poll,
    mine is BAGELS.
    
    Hogan

	a doughnut a week is all i can stand.
	
	a bagel a day, on the other hand, ....
	
	(ogo had good bagels, mko has ok bagels)

    bageldude

Bagels and donuts do not fill the same culinary niche in my food
ecology.  Similar perhaps, but not the same, and the shape of the
item does not really count.  A bagel is a bread, while a donut is
a cake.  I regularly toast bagels and throw something on it, while
the idea of toasting a donut is, ah, intriguing, and it certainly
does not beg to be slathered in anything extra.  A donut satisfies
the sweet tooth.  A bagel satisfies the hunger for decent food.
In the pantheon of breads, a donut is a piece of fluff (albeit
a pleasing one) and a good bagel is nirvana.

PeterT

  AM bread vote:  Other.  I pass up both donuts & bagels in favor of Wyoming
  Sourdough bread (Big Sky bakery in Waltham).  [Or their italian, or
  3-seed, or...]   - JayC.

I eat everything without prejudice.

    
    Maple frosted donut from Dunken donuts is good on the way out
    of Bean town at 2am with coffee. Fresh onion or garlic bagels 
    from Bagel Alley in nashua is good for brunch. 
    
    But for breakfast I like oatmeal when it gets chilly outside.

    
    whoops was this survey just for guys?
    

    No 
    that would be the thong versus non thong
    
    I prefer thongs
    i like feeling of freedom i get with them
    
    
    

    
    
    Yes, I always feel so free when I'm flossing my rear end...  :)
    
    
    jim_who_has_never_tried_on_a_thong_and_who_never_will

    You folks DON'T WANT to see me in a thong...
    
    ...mikey_who_has_never_met_a_donut_he_didn't_like
    
    PS This is an equal_opportunity note for all regardless of gender, 
    sex, or persuasion

    digressions are us!  from donuts to bagels to butt floss
    
    :-)  :-) 
    
    

    case in point
    1 bagel-cinnamon and raisin
    peanut butter- on the bagel
    coffee-large with sweetener
    thong-silk and paisley...err forget that part
    :^)

    
    
    
    The thought of leblank in a paisley thong was enough to make me snarf
    bagel chunks (cinn & raisin, w/ a little cream cheese) all over the
    dang screen.
    
    Humor: always an excellent way to start the day.

    well, inthe spirit of this discussion, today i had a nice big cream
    filled eclair...  :^) :^) :^)
    
    chocolate bliss....
    
    					da ve

    scrambled (like my brain) eggs and greasy bacon from the cafeteria!!!
    hot coco...off the caffine for as long as I can take it after my
    bronchitos (SP)...did ya know that caffine leeches more vits and
    minerals from ones body than *ANY* other drug, including alcohol!
    
    rfb_healthnut (ya right)

bagels

    but RFD - hot choc/tea/colas all have caffeine i thinks
    
    

    yer right on the caffine Carol, but there's much less in coco and most
    teas Idrink are herbal....no sodas/colas for me except Hansens...but
    did ya know that carbonation in general is not good for the liver???
    
    
    rfb

deb and i rage about 1 doz of bagels/wk

but, i prefer a heaping BOWL of oats.
:-)

	I don't think cocoa has caffine in it. My wife can't have caffine but 	
        was told chocolate was ok. It has something different in it.

Chris

    chocolate has that little something in it that sets off the same sets
    of endorphins etc that great sex does...
    
    got that out of a Redbook magazine in the dentists office
    
    

    well smokers..today is national smoke out day and i basically shot that
    to hell by having a snipe on the way into work..
    for those of you that choose to inahle, how old were you when you
    started, what was the longest span of time when you quit before and
    finally what is your hack-brand of choice?

    Schmoke poll!
    
    started @ 17 (never really got hooked; most cigs really suck)
    enjoy the occasional Drum nowadays!
    
    'noky

    I smoked two packs of Camel nonfilters a day, starting in high school,
    for about eight years. Then one fine morning about three AM as I was
    studying for an environmental engineering final, I realized I was doing
    my micro-environment much more damage than I thought acceptable.
    
    And I cold-turkeyed.
    
    I still smoke maybe *one* five-dollar cigar a year when I go to Vega$
    and feel flush, but that's the only tobacco which touches my lips.
    
    ...Michael T. "(mostly 8*))Smoke-Free-for-24-years"Head

   I started smoking when I was about 10 yrs old, just sorta experimenting.
   I remember going out for lunch in the 8th grade to go to the local sub
   shop, cop a couple of smokes, and listen to Alvin Lee on the juke box 
   ("I'd Love to Change the World").  

   By 13 I was pretty hooked and have been battling it ever since.  I'm now
   what, da ve, 36 ?  ;-)  

   I switched to chewing tobacco in '84, after cigs killed my dad, and
   have been off and on since.  It's *much* easier to quit if you chew
   rather than smoke (nicotine gets to the brain in seconds via the lungs,
   same reason smoking crack is bad), but it's still nicotine.

   I usually can quit, using nicorette gum (highly effective!), but then
   go back after 6 months or a year.  Wierd...

   /Ken

    funny Ken
    I chewed tobacco for 7 years before a butt touched my mouth
    Kodiak straight cut
    
    kinda like chewing asbestos..little nobs in your mouth every now and
    then too.....
    
    at least you can breathe tho.. :^)
    

    Let's see 1st smoke when I was 10
              really in the habit around 13
    	      1-2 packs a day from 14-20
    	      6 or 8 butts a day from 20-present(28)
    	      hopefully kick the whole thing soon(I know its killing me)
    		
    	      butt of choice Camel Filters 

    I started smoking when about 12...German cigs called Entre 23.
    Worked up to a pack a day until about
    17..then i would quit for a month, start again, quit, etc....once when
    a senior in High School I quit by substituting....don't remember much
    of that year (just kidding), but it got me off the cigs...
    
    When I met Patty, she was still smoking and I had quit for over a
    couple of years, so I was disinterested in cigs...she would sneak 'em
    behind my back with her friends while I was at Tech School.
    One day I walked in on her right when she had taken a LONG drag, she
    tried to hold it in until i left the room or something like that and
    had a major coughing attack....that just about made her cold
    turkey...then on our first backpacking trip together into the
    Superstition Mts outside of Phoenix, she just about died and DID cold
    turkey.
    Several years ago while on a week long hunting trip, I started "dipping",
    I worked second shift manufacturing then and continued dippping in the
    evenings (Patty woulda killed me if she knew how much I was doin)
    Talk about addicting! the ONLY thing that made me quit was a root
    canal done on one of my lower front teeth....from the bottom up!!!
    The Dr cut my gums below my bottom front teeth in order to do the root
    canal. Needless to say it took some time for the incision to heal and
    by that time I had gone thru the withdrawel and was OK.....never dipped
    again and never smoked a cig again after that...
    
    I have enough bad habits without cigs and i DON'T NEED ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!
    
    rfb

I started smoking in 10th grade, so I was probably about
15.  I worked up to a pack+ a day of Marlboro's or Camel
Filters by college, and by the end of my sophomore year I
started trying to quit - I was 20.  By the time I was 29, I
had tried several times to cold turkey, but always went
back, so this time I tried something different.  I knew I
would have to reduce the physical dependence if I was ever
going to give 'em up for good, so patches and gum and such
really wouldn't do it - and besides, I hated that stuff.  I
had to internalize the fact that I was no longer going to
be a smoker - that I would NEVER smoke again.

So, I forced myself into situations where I couldn't smoke:
I asked for a cubicle in a non-smoking section of the
office (before the whole company went smoke-free, this was
the routine), right next to the most militant non-smoker
I've ever met (Thank you Judy Hall, where ever you are!). 
I stayed away from anything that reminded me of butts, or
triggered the urge.  I was married at the time, so it was
easy to avoid sex. ;-)  

The last thing I did was to quit drinking completely for a
year.  That did it.  I got down to a couple butts a day,
and then stopped on my thirtieth birthday.  I just turned
41 (29 hex, thank you very much), and I haven't had one
since.

But they still scare me.  I could pick one up today and be
right back where I was 20 years ago - screwed.  So, in the
26 years since I started, I spent five years smoking, ten
years quitting and eleven years smoke-free.

Give 'em up, folks.  They'll only kill ya, and make you
stink in the meantime.

tim

    
    	Aw Judy Hall, a wonderful lady!!!!
    
    

    suddenly being in this string makes me feel like i'm at an AA
    meeting...  :^)
    
    i had my first smoke in second grade...  my cousin and i would steal
    them from his mom and go smoke to be cool like the big kids... 
    mmmmm....  benson and hedges 100's...  :^)
    
    by the time i had my paper route in fourth grade i had a pack hidden at
    home, a pack hidden at school and a pack hidden on my paper route...
    
    i quit sometime around 83...  about 1.5 paks a day...  cold turkey...
    on a bet...
    
    i'm not sure exactly how long it's been...  i purposely quit on a day
    i'll never remember...  i decide that keeping count ("it's been 30 days
    since my last one") sort of assumed i would have another soe day... 
    otherwise why measure?  so i just tried to convince myself that i was a
    non-smoker...
    
    i still get the jones every so often...  but it's easier to say no
    after this much time...  gawd did i love cigs though...  til that day i
    realized i would get up, choke, have a smoke, choke, be sick, have
    another smoke, THEN have coffee, shower, be productive...  the morning
    routine got to be too much...
    
    					da ve_occasional_cigar_kinda_guy
    					(when hiking/climbing)

    Pete Townshend wrote this, and the Who recorded it, for the American
    Cancer Society.  I don't know if they ever used it, but the Who used to
    play it in concert.
    
    Little Billy
    
    Little Billy was the fattest kid in his class,
    Always the last in line.
    All the other kids would laugh at him,
    Said he'd die before his time.
    
    Ha-ha-ha-ha, ha-ha-ha-ha,
    Little Billy didn't mind.
    
    Most of the kids smoked cigarettes
    To prove that they were cool.
    The teacher didn't know 'bout the children's game
    And Billy always followed the rules.
    
    Ha-ha-ha-ha, ha-ha-ha-ha,
    Little Billy didn't mind.
    
    Billy was big on the outside,
    But there's an even bigger man inside.
    Ten million cigarettes burn ev'ryday,
    And Billy's still doing fine.
    
    Now Billy and his classmates are middle-aged,
    With children of their own.
    Their smoking game's reality now
    And cancer has taken its toll.
    
    Ha-ha-ha-ha, ha-ha-ha-ha,
    Little Billy didn't mind.
    
    Most of them smoke nearly forty a day,
    A habit Billy doesn't share.
    One by one they're passing away,
    Leaving orphans to Billy's care.
    
    Ha-ha-ha-ha, ha-ha-ha-ha,
    Little Billy didn't mind.
    Ha-ha-ha-ha, ha-ha-ha-ha,
    Little Billy's doing fine.

	here's a new take on this poll:
	if you are/were a smoker - was there an adult smoker in your
	household when you were growing up?
	if you're a nonsmoker - was your household "smoke-free"?

	I grew up in a nonsmoking household and both my brother and
	I do not smoke cigarettes

    My father used to smoke at least a pack of Winstons every day. 
    Eventually, the family put pressure on him to quit.
    
    And he did.  Instead of buying cigs, he put the money in a big coffee
    can.  My little sister and I used to count all the money he saved; we
    were so impressed with the amount of money!
    
    I could never get into smoking full time.  I enjoy an occasional cigar,
    clove cig, or a handrolled Drum, but that's it.  More than a couple a
    week gets to be too much.  Thanks Dad!
    
    'noky

I have never smoked and never will.  Both my parents smoked.  My mother
quit when I was about 8 years old or so, and my father quit 2 or 3 years
later.  I never had the urge to smoke, despite all the "cool" kids in
junior high.  I have takne an occasional drag here and there, but it only
reminds me how gross they are.  My grandmother also smoked, and I used to
hide her cigarettes.  When I moved out of the apartment I grew up in, I
found a pack of Kents in my dresser drawer that I had forgotten about!

Unfortunately, I currently live with a smoker that goes through about 10
cigarettes between the time I get home and I go to sleep.  And they choke
me!  I have one of those air filter things with the ion generator that I
run, with my bedroom door closed, to keep it fresh from the second hand
smoke that wades in if my door is open (my room is next to the living
room).  He was on the patch for a while but he had problems with it and
went back to smoking.  Weird thing is, he has an irregular heartbeat and
takes pills for it!  Fuckin crazy!

adam

    Both Dad and Mom smoked.
    
    Mom quit when I was about ten but Dad smoked until his health (not lung
    cancer or any oither thing directly related to smoking) caused him to
    quit about ten years ago.
    
    He's lots healthier now (he's  75)
    
    Marty's mom smoked all her life; her dad was gassed in WWI and had
    major breathing problems all the rest of his life (and therefore of
    course did not smoke). Marty never started.
    
    ...mike
    

    
    Both my parents smoked while I was growing up. I'm a non
    smoker as is one of my brothers. My older Bro & Sister quit
    and just my youngest bro smokes now . Dad's still fighting
    the habit but my Mom finally quit after having an asthma
    attack! 
    
    
    Toby

    Everyone in my immediate family smokes the damn things!!
    
    (except my Mom who is now smoke free for something like 4 years)

    My folks smoked when we were kids...Pall Mall's, but not much, they'd
    split a pack during a week type of thing, 1 at night or with coffee...
    I "smoked" (hardly) for a brief time when I was 10,11, 12? and it was
    cool...we'd go up to the center of town and rip-off whatever we could,
    and smoke it on the train trax on the way home...
    
    none of us kids smoke now, or were never real smokers at all...my folks
    quit maybe 20 years ago due to mom's health issues, she's fine, and I
    can't stand cigareete smoke...I can't even spell it :)
    
    Wes

    
    
    Allergic to cigarette smoke, thank god.
    
    I try it, I hack like a dying beast. I can always tell if I'm smoking
    something with tobaccy in it - immediate GAK!
    
    Otherwise, I'd be smoking with my friends. Neither parent smoked.
    
    

I've probably tried less than 5 cigarettes in my lifetime.  Some of the 
latter ones due to a strange coating on the outside that was my immediate
concern ;-)  My mom still smokes (but now we force her outside when
she visits!  We're cruel!) in her early 70's.  I believe my dad used to
smoke when he was younger, but he certainly doesn't now, and I can't
ever remember him smoking.  Only one of us 5 boys ever took up tobacco,
and oddly, he was the only one who never got into any of the 
other things to smoke ;-)  He's been clean for a number of years
now, what with having kids and all.

PeterT

    no smokers in my house...  i picked up to be "cool"...
    
    Joe Camel wasn't around then...  but that was my brand...
    
    and this after knowing how they killed my grandmother...
    
    "cool" is so intelligent... :^(
    
    					da ve

    my dad has smoked since about 7 years old, even with slight emphasema
    (sp) and a heart attack last year, he still smokes......addictive
    personalities run in our family, so we all watch out.....
    
    rfb

My dad smoked until just after the time I began. Later
he was diagnosed with hypertension, which eventually
killed him 3.5 years ago when he died suddenly and
unexpectedly of a massive heart attack.  I miss him even
more than I miss the butts.

I still have occasional nightmares in which I'm with him
(which is unnerving enough) and he lights one up...or I
do.  For years he gently reminded me to give 'em up, and
eventually I found the strength to do it.

tim

My dad smoked sigs and cigars constantly.  Couldn't quit when told to.
Fell for the 1 mg nicotine thing in Carlton cigs, but he'd just cover
the damn vent holes on the filter to feed that nicotine jones.... a common
strategy :-(

My mother smoked a few butts/day for years, but quit when my dad got the big C.

Did it affect me ?   I would have tried em anyway, and subsequently gotten
hooked.

Interesting that there are lots of negatives on nicorette gum and the patch
in this string.  IMO (or IMC, in my case) the gum has been *essential* and
extremely effective at weaning myself off this drug.  It's like methadone for
heroin addicts.   

/Ken

    RE: .23
    
    RFB .... you're concerned about carbonation bothering your liver?
    
    :-) 
    
    

    re.51
    no...but my wife and kids are...constant nagging lately by the kids...
    
    rfb

	Both my parents were/still are avid-rabid smokers... The 
	kind who tell you (with an air of arrogance) how many 
	packs per day they smoke.  I was *always* disgusted by 
	cig smoking when I was a kid.  I'm more tolerant now. 

	I've only taken one very *small* hit on a cigarette... 
	In the service, before going back into the barracks 
	once, my buddy told me to take a hit on his Cool, 
	because he could still smell the other smoke on 
	my breath %-}  and the menthol in the Cool would 
	cover it...  Yucchhh!

	One sibling smokes only cigarettes, the other smokes 
	nothing at all...  

	--t

re <<< Note 497.34 by WRACK::TRAMP::GRADY "Subvert the dominant pair of dimes" >>>

>I've ever met (Thank you Judy Hall, where ever you are!). 

she's still around.
perhaps Sr. Consulting Eng now?
she was a consulting eng in '89 when i worked with
her ont he SVS product.

i grew up in a smoke-free env.

i played w/ cigs in jr high and high school.
never became a cig smoker.
in college, _everyone_ freakin' smoked.
i had a few here and there, but never really
got into inhaling into the lungs.  we used to
play high intesity hearts games into the wee-wee
hrs of the AM.  my rommies used to chain smoke
during the intense rounds... me, i'd hit the
old vodka to calm the nerves.  when the round was
done, we'd relax and light'em up

    
    My mother smoked, but quit when I was very young (I have very vague
    memories of her smoking).  My Dad smoked a pipe at work I guess, but I
    never saw him smoke.
    
    When kids around me started smoking in jr. high, I thought they looked
    ridiculous.  Never had an interest.....none of my immediate pals smoked
    either, though.
    
    I occasionally have a cigarette (maybe once a year), but get grossed
    out by the experience pretty quickly.  When I was in Ireland for 10
    days, I smoked a lot; it was the only time that I actually went and
    bought cigaretes.  But I gave most of them away in pubs and on the
    streets (more of a social phenomenon than a want for smokes).
    
    I always thought that smoiking cigareetes was pointless.  Even as a
    straight-laced kid growing up, I thought that at least smoking dope had
    a point to it (get high), even though I didn't smoke anything at all. 
    I didn't understand the power of nicotine, guess I'm glad I didn't
    think much of it or become intrigued with it.
    
    Hogan

    Both  parents smoked, both quit upwards of 15- 20 years, Dad
    suffers from emphysema, My Mom died 18 months ago from Heart/Asthma
    related concerns, I smoke some cigarettes, like people smoke cigars.
    I go weeks without any. I smoked for 7-10 years, less than 1 pack.
    

	new poll:

	the Dead have played with a number of saxophonists in the last 
	5+ years or so - Clarence Clemons, Ornette Coleman, Branford
	Marsalis, Dave Murray - they have such different styles, surely
	what each of them does effects each of us in different ways.

	list your preference, and maybe why...

	for me:

	#1 Branford - he just seems to play so fluidly, it feels good to
	hear him play, he makes me sway!
	#2 Clarence - sometimes what he's playing is a little too repetitive
	#3 Murray - he jars me, what he does distracts from the Dead (for me)

	never heard Ornette.

	Debess

    I like the Ornette tape alot that I asked about in here last week
    (BTW that mystery tape side has Eyes-->Est Prophet-->DARK STAR!!! man 
    Jerry and Ornette TEAR THE SHIRT out of that Darkstar...and someone
    told me over the weekend that that tape, they thought, was from the LA
    Colosium.....still don't know though....
    
    secondly I like Branford..
    
    rfb

    well grateful noters, the holiday season is upon us and i would like to
    pose a poll question..
    What are *YOU* thankful for?

    for all the kind, caring deadheads I've met in the past 10 years....
    
    for my parents...
    
    for my wonderful wife....
    
    for my spoiled brat kids....
    
    for life in the mountains.....

    for my friends

    for life

    for my job

	my health and my family's health
	my good fortune to have shelter, food, clothing and peace
	my good friends and family members to love and be loved by
	
	...and you guys - I can't tell you how thankful I am to be 
	back in GRATEFUL after an almost 3 year absence...you let me 
	talk about my favorite subject everyday ;-)...you can relate 
	and you make me smile alot!

	Debess

    
    This last year.
    
    
    It's been the best of my life, by far. Things just keep getting better.
    
    At first good things were happening in threes, then sixes, then
    elevens, and now I've lost count. :)
    

    Family, friends, health,.....

    
    Thankful for all the aforementioned blessings and a job to
    get more money to buy more music/fun/treats/vacations.
    
    
    

    I'm thankful for Karen, family, friends, music, relative good health,
    some Justice for us...

    
    For my friends and family.
    
    For living in Colorado where my fish'n pals are!!
    
    Divide Dave

    
    Thankful to have been blessed with a life.
    
    Thankful that those I love are alive and well.

I'm thankful that the holiday season only lasts a couple of months.

DC

    what a miser
    
    ::clark friends with that grinch guy?

	hey chris - what are -you- thankful for?

    Thankful for food in my belly
    
    for a roof over my head
    
    for a family who loves me
    
    for being alive (and well!)
    
    Even though I may bitch, I'm a pretty damn lucky earthling; you might
    even say spoiled American.  With Christmas around the corner, I realize
    there is nothing I really want.  The hype/commercialism/excess has
    had me thinking lately... 
    
    I get enought stuff (crap) as it is.  What if I were to ask
    family/friends to put their money/effort into a charitable cause
    instead of a gift?  I think I'd feel much better about that.
    
    'noky

    well debess
    i'm thankful for all of you..........
    
    deadheads are good peoples
    
    :^)

    
    chris's reply to your note
    

thankful for beer

    
    I'm most thankful for my Wife & 2 Kids (1 of each)
    although I'd be even more thankful if the little guy took less of an
    interest in the toilet 8-)
    
    House/Job/Food and 'specially the people of Grateful who show
    that there are still people who care in this world!!!!
    
    
    Toby

let me seee...


job,
wife,
baby Sam,
good friends,
health,
family

and not in any particular order...
bobo

Thanks to:

Mom & Dad... for puttin' up with me when I didn't know better :-)
Wife Dori... for puttin' up with me when I do know better :-)
Boss and co-workers... for puttin' up with me day after day after day after
    day, whether I know better or not and choose 'not' anyway :-) 
Grateful friends... who don't care what I do but have to put up with me anyay
    because they can't stop me from postin' dumb notes like this one :-)

- jeff

    Another Poll...President Clinton is going on tv tonight to make his
    case for sending US troops to keep the newly agreed to Peace in Bosnia.
    
    Should we send US troops to Bosnia?
    (sub poll...do you think there will Peace in Bosnia, regardless of US
    troops being there)

    Vietnam
    
    as far as peace???
    
    
    take a look at Northern Ireland and the Middle East...
    No

    
    no, 
    
    no
    

    no and no...
    
    i don't think the troops should go, mostly because i don't like any
    troops going anywhere by and large...  
    
    however, having said that, i do grant a couple of international brownie
    points to the administration for trying to be involved in a peaceful
    settlement and offering to put troops in to preserve that peace...  you
    cant be a leader and the big-kid-on-the-block without being willing to
    put something of value on the line...
    
    fwiw though, i think at the first sign of trouble our boyz should be
    out of there in a hurry...  if you ask us to come in and help maintain
    peace, fine...  we should help...  but if you show that you really
    aren't interested in peace, the hell with it...  we're outta here...
    
    and no, i don't think there will be peace there for a long time...  i
    hope i'm wrong,m but there's too many centuries of ethnic hatred that
    has been fueled and refueled for too long....  the christians point
    fingers at the muslims going all the way back to the ottoman empire...
    the serbs cant let go of the croats for the stuff the croats did to
    them with the germans in ww2 (i hope i didn't get those two backwards
    again)...  and there's still folks pissed at the Serbs since it was a
    Serb assisin that helped bring on ww1...   too many people with too
    many reasons to hate each other....  until they can let go of all that,
    no, i don't think three'll be peace in what used to be yugoslavia...
    
    					da ve

    No  (but they will send them)
    
    One of the most chilling things I heard about the history of the whole
    thing there is that the French washed their hands of it awhile back
    after being involved there for 30 years.   HELLLLLLLLL-OOOOO   does
    that sound familiar to anyone ??????
    
    

    <--------
    
    can you say "Dienbienphu?"
    
    hmmmmm sounds familiar

    
    >can you say "Dienbienphu?"
    
    
    bless you!

    Yes and yes.  Boy, it feels strange being the optimist in this crowd. :-)
    
    As da ve said very well:
    
    >you cant be a leader and the big-kid-on-the-block without being willing
    >to put something of value on the line...
    
    We can't forget the lessons we learned from Vietnam, but we also can't
    ignore what we learned from WWII and other conflicts.  Looking the
    other way when atrocities and "ethnic cleansings" occur only postpones
    our involvement and makes it more costly when the time comes.
    
    Also, unlike Vietnam, we're going in with the agreement of the
    combatants to impose a settlement agreed upon by their leaders.  The
    big unknown is how far we'll get involved, and on what side, if the
    brokered settlement collapses.  Even if the agreement holds, there's
    bound to be isolated skirmishes and terrorism.  It's gong to be a
    difficult and dangerous task, but ignoring or postponing it will only
    make the situation worse.
    
    Jamie

    NO, NO there will never be peace there
    
    Nor do I want my Army son to attend. His infantry unit is not
    scheduled to go in at first..., however I am sure at one point
    he will br there, or backing up somewhere. My feeling
    is that we have no business being there at all.... 

    
    you know, the more i've thought about my entry, the more i regret
    having said that there will never be peace there...  a momentary 
    work-induced bit of weakness of my part...  being surrounded by
    futility shouldn't change my basic beliefs... :^)
    
    i do hope there will be peace there and that the combatants come
    to realize that more than enough lives have been lost in this
    insanity...
    
    yes, i believe there will be peace there...  i just hope i live to see
    it...  after all, who'd have thought we'd see the kind of developments
    recent history has shown us?  reunified Germany???  Palestinian rule
    in Isreal???  the end of aparthied in South Africa?????  who the hell
    am i to give up hope so easily?????  :^)  
    
    cool things CAN happen if we believe it hard enough and push for it...
    examples abound...  i still don't like the idea that we need soldiers
    to do it, but peace can happen...
    
    it can happen...  i believe it...  it can happen...  i believe it...
    it can happen...  i believe it...  it can happen...  i believe it...
    
    						da ve

    and Chris, .81...
    
    yes, look at Northern Ireland and the Middle East...  NI, where the
    combatants have declared an end to hostilities and are at the
    negotiating table together...  the Middle East, where the Israelis
    are working hard to patch things up with thier neighbors and find
    peace...
    
    we may not be there yet, but the wheels are turning....
    
    sometimes i forget...  peace is the HARD road, and takes a lot more
    work, time, persistence, and attention...
    
    					da ve
    
    ps.  i do still believe that if our presence turns out not to help
    then we should get the hell out and let them duke it out themselves...

    from what Gerry Adams has said it doesn't seem like the IRA is gonna 
    lay down their arms that easy...
    I think fringe groups and extremists a la the Israeli law student who
    shot Rabin come into play here....
    
    As far as ethnic and religious strife, there is no easy way out....
    
    not being pessimistic, realistic

	don't feel like answering the poll :-P, but I will just drop some
	Lennon lyrics into the appropriate slots:

	"give peace a chance"

	"Imagine"

	Debess

    
    not to get too far into something smelly but... :^)
    
    Gerry Adams and the IRA have ceased hostilities...  it hasn't been
    easy, but the IRA is mostly hanging out...  no, they aren't giving
    thier weapons over to the Brit's, but they aren't using them these
    days either...  they are working out a political solution to a
    political problem...
    
    as for Rabin, he gave his life for peace, and in doing so, may have
    furthered the cause of peace more than he could have if he'd lived...
    the key words you used were "fringe grops and extremists"...  note how
    all the leaders in the area have loudly and unequivocably condemned the
    act...  Rabin being killed by one of his own people was a real wake up
    call to the whole nation...  the peace process is alive and even
    Rabin's traditional arab enemies today proclaim him a hero for peace...
    could any of us ever have envisioned a day when Yasser Arafat would 
    personally travel to the house of his fallen "enemy" to express his
    condolences to his widow???
    
    there are fringe groups and extremists in every country... even our
    own...  this does not mean there can't be peace...
    
    no easy way out, doesn't mean no way out...  and i don't think that
    i'm being unrealistic either...  as i said before, had you told me
    a few years ago that we'd see the berlin wall come down, i'd have
    laughed out loud... 
    
    it can happen...
    
    					da ve 

    
    .90, da ve
    
    hmmm... made me think.
    
    I think that there will be peace there. (someday.) I do also think,
    however, that forcibly sticking one's nose into other people's
    business, no matter how well intentioned, tends to irritate those who
    get stuck.
    
    I think it's great to help mediate (not arbitrate!) the peace process
    and provide a neutral ground for it to happen. (Who ever came up with
    Ohio, anyway?)
    
    It's another thing to go in and enforce that agreement by force. If
    they really want peace, peace will happen. If they don't, our arms
    aren't going to solve the process.
    
    Bring back the Monroe Doctrine! :}
    
    -Jim the cynic

    
    The Nashua Peace Organization (yes chris there is such a thing ! )
    is one of the groups we belong to to help us keep our sanity.  We 
    don't do all thast much with them except pay the member fee and and
    go to vigils once in awhile.  but it helps us stay balanced.
    
     

    
    3 years ago, I would have said no, but things have changed.  I'll hafta say 
    "I don't know" at this time.  There are some factors that make it difficult 
    for me to make an educated decision on this topic. 
    
    - There may be a hell of a lot more going on on Bosniaserbiamuslimiagovenia 
      than we have been alerted.  The Serbs seem to be pretty violent people, 
      I would not be surprised if U.S. troops are being sent to free hidden 
      concentration camps.  I would then support U.S. involvement 100%.  Not a 
      job for the Peace Corps, thats fer ser.  
    
    - Perhaps the situation is not nearly as bad as we've been directed and
      all sides are willing to make peace.  There are no concentration
      camps, boundries have been established and prisoners released. If this 
      were the case, I would not support any U.S. action.  Let them deal with 
      it.
                                            
    I think it all boils down to the level of civilian suffering, which I
    have no idea.  Apparently, Clinton does. 

Yes.  Give peace a chance.

Yes.  Someone's got to step in and prevent yet another holocaust.


- jeff

    
    
     I'll start this by saying NO!
    
     I lost a brother 28 years ago to political stupid war and don't want
    anyone else to go through this!
    
     There is NO way a military force is going to force anyone not
    desiring peace to make peace.
    
    While watching a news show the other night I caught a peice about
    Bosina, they interviewed 2 officers from different countries and they
    both stated if America sends troops over there that we had better start
    training are children to be peace keepers. Both officers had served in
    Bosina and seemed to know what they were talking about.
    
    
    
    I think da ve's idea to go but cut and run if trouble starts is no way
    to go into a situation such as this, if your foe knows that you won't
    stand for losses they have the upper hand and can inflict enough pain
    to get you out.
    
    
    Another question comes to mind! How many people who support involement
    in Bosnia will be willing to give up safe jobs here and get involved
    with the peace keeping mission. How many of them have loved ones who
    will have to serve where you have 3 different enimies, and from what
    I've read none of them are real happy with this settlement?
    
    I agree with Jeff about giving peace a chance, but that peace must come
    from within..
    
    
    As someone said earlier these people have been killing each other for
    hundreds of years. Does anyone  really think that the presence of
    American troops for a year is going to make for a lasting peace.
    
    
    I'll finish by saying NO.
    
    Divide Dave
    

    howz everyone doing on their new year's resolutions....????
    
    
    
    leblanc_cigarette_free_ for_11_days

Keep the faith, Chris.  It's worth it!

Not good.

i'm drinking less
:-)

    
    Go leblanc! My roomie's smoke-free since dec. 31st, and my co-worker
    since dec. 25th.
    
    Just beware of February, when the tobacco giants increase their
    advertising!
    
    I think I lost a pound - but I found it again later.  :}
    

	
	made none

	good for you, Chris - good luck in keeping it...

	hey chris, that's grate!!
	after all, you stopped buying them in july  ;-)  ;-)  ;-)

    too cool...  keep it up Chris!
    
    

    made none
    
    drinking heavily
    
    
    rfb

    
    I hereby resolve to have more fun this year.
    
    I'm not sure how I can have more fun than last year, but it's a good
    goal.  :)
    

	an "official" poll:
	Do you listen to a walkman while you're at work?  
		- Most of the time
		- Sometimes
		- Never

    most of the time
    although it's often a cd 

    most of the time

    often, or as much as possible :)  only a cd player though
    
    Wes

    
    never.
    
    I have music in my head a lot though.
    
    Cath

    used to....people would come over and ask me to turn it down....
    
    rfb

    
    Rarely.
    
    Hard to move sround freely when wired in. 

Re: .113

:-) :-)

Sometimes,  CD player in my alpha systems.  Though the CD player on the most
recent box I have skips quite a bit, and may have given up the ghost
entirely last week.  Luckily there is another at hand.

PeterT

    Most of the time the CD player is on. It's the only way to concentrate
    on real work and drown out the telephones and talking.

Never.  I don't get as much work done.

Jim

    most of the time

    
    Sometimes.....
    
    It took me a long time to work and listen to music on headphones, I
    really could not concentrate on the work enough.  At first I would only
    listen to music if I was doing "busy" work, but now any hacking (that
    includes thinking ;^) can be done with the 'phones on.  When I really
    need to concentrate on the work, the music moves to the background, and
    I get into a serious groove.
    
    Hogan 

    never...  i don't have one!  :^)
    
    

    I occasionally listen to cd's on the pc or FM radio on a boombox
    (fm at low volume).  I'd listen to em more but I don't like headphones,
    mostly the cable and the way headphones feel.

    /Ken

I will occasionally use the CD player in my system, but this
habit has tailed off lately...I started back when we were between
houses, with most everything (including the stereo) in temporary
storage...now I'm down to 3 disks (The Koln Concert, Learning to
Flinch, and Infrared Roses).

Dan

    
    Never. Don't own one, and I'm ADD. Wouldn't get squat done.
    

    never - don't own one .. 
    
    i also have the music in my head all the time.  sometimes its very
    distracting but I won't want it to go away.
    
    

    no need for music when there are all those voices....
    
     

    Re: .126
    
    	They're not just VOICES, Chris - it's music!
    

    what do those voices tell you Chris???
    
    
    
    	"phish, or cut bait...  phish, or cut bait?????"
    
    
    
    		"Jerry lives......  with Elvis...."
    
    
    
    			"pay no attention to the man behind the curtain..."
    
    					:^)
    
    					da voice

    
    
     Never!! Another one of the poor souls who don't own one.
    
     Headphone give me a headache!
    
     Divide Dave

I have a cd player in the system and headphones but don't use them.

I do use headphones at home on occasion.

bob

    
    I love headphones.....my brother gave me a wonderful set of headphones
    7 years ago, and they just sound great!!  To me, nothing is as good a
    sound as headphones.  You can see the music so well with them.  I've
    grown to appreciate listening to an excellent mix at low volumes in the
    'phones.
    
    Hogan

	hardly ever listen at work.
	i bought a tape player so i could, but i never do.
	i always have music going in my head, tho.
	(right now it's jethro tull's Beggar's Farm  ;-)

Never use 'em
i have people in my office all day as well as phone calls at day

	new poll:
	do you name your car(s)?

    No, other than my car, or her car.

    yup
    one day in college a buddy walked in to the room where myself and my
    other friends were watching the ballgame and asked if he could "Borrow
    Lesh"
    I say, "What?"
    he says, "Lesh...I need Lesh to go to the mall.."
    "what the hell are you talking about?"
    "Lesh...your car... I need to borrow your ride.."
    turns out he was talking about my Plymouth Horizon with the "Lesh is
    More" sticker on it...the name stuck since then until Lesh was retired
    and passed on in a Volkswagen dealerships parking lot

    
    I named my 78 Mercury Cougar "Fygar".
    
    Don't know why, just sounded good at the time.  It was a threatening
    type of automobile so I guess I needed a threatening sort of name.  

    
    I've namimg my next car "sh!tbox."
    
    I plan to spend less than $300 on it, so I figure it will be one. Maybe
    I'll get a personalized plate - SHTBOX.
    

    Friends of mine have always been fond of calling my vehicle "the
    DeadMobile" but I guess I never really named them.
    

    sure!  i name my cars...
    
    my current one is "the oiseau"...  french for bird...  it's a
    thunderbird or, as we say in franglais a "oiseau de bruit"... :^)
    
    my last one was li'l Sal...  an acronym for stalls-a-lot... :^)
    
    					da ve

    let's see..
    had the Pygmy Pony in High School (datsun P.U. truck)
    Sally Scout (named by kids when they were little)
    Herbie (VW bug, see above)
    Bertha (big green 3/4 ton P.U.)
    The Prune (brownish/reddish/faded Subaru I drive to work)
    The Donky (wife's Bronco II)
    
    I tend to refer to all cars as "the truck"...
    
    
    rfb

  I named a previous car "Duke".  Nothing to do with Wayne or Dukakis -- was
  heavily into Duke Ellington at the time.

    [Commercial break:  If you haven't heard Ellington's couple of dozen
    rockin' 3-minute masterpieces of 1940, you're really missing
    something...]

  Come to think of it, the character string common to all my
  computer-account and bank-card passwords is the initials of an Ellington
  song title...  - JayC.

	most of my cars have been oooooold, like mostly 20 years old,
	and old cars just have such personalities ;-) that they must
	be named.  There was Sparky, and Baby Blue, and Ruby (the gem of
	the fleet), and Aqua Volvo, and Gulden...

	but a year or so ago, while I was dealing with a horrible commute
	down Rt. 3, we decided it would probably lower the stress level
	-a bit- if I wasn't driving something that would potentially
	break down/not start.  So I actually own a car that is from this
	decade now - a first for me!  But, it's been hard to come up with
	a name that clicks for it.

	I do also still own quite a few other vehicles:
	the '79 VW brown and tan microbus - named Hoagie, cause it sorta
	looks like a roast beef sub with one of the pieces of bread missing.
	it's also affectionately known as the party-on-wheels

	the Dodge caravan which we bought because we could fit all our kids
	and dog and stuff in it and it was real cheap.  the catch was it
	had over 250,000 miles on it!  It's been a constant source of repair
	time and parts expenses.  it is unaffectionately known as the
	mini-caca.

	we have a plow truck which is called the plow truck

	we have another truck that's sitting on our property, wish it wasn't,
	no name

	we have another microbus in Mass. waiting for a "little" work to get
	her home, won't happen till spring, she's yellow and white and we
	haven't named her yet.  Sunshine seems like a good name.

	back to the "new" car - this car was bought and first used during
	the '94 Boston Garden run - it took it's maiden voyages back and
	forth from NH to Boston to all 6 of those wonderful Dead showz.
	Seemed appropriate that it's name should somehow commemorate that
	event.  It's gray.  It seems that all of Bobby's guitars were
	silver or gray that run and he was just so predominate in the (my?!)
	mix - I wanted to name it Feedback - but was that what he was really 
	doing to produce those (wonderful!) screeches?
	How about Ashes?  How about Toucha(grey)?  
	Any suggestions gladly accepted!

	Debess

Hmm, 
	I don't think I ever named a car anything much different than the name 
it came with. I also remember being a little surprised when Lisa (you remember 
LS) told me her car had a name (which I can't recall at the moment. 
	But sometimes my cars get descriptive adjectives as partial names. For 
instance there was "The F^@&ing Ranger". My VW, which I may sell before I 
have to fix it, is often refered to as the Scirrocket. It has also been refered
to on occasion as a Bug, because its a VW and in my mind VW spells bug.
	Now I've got a truck large enough to pull our boat and maybe I should 
call it the pig. It's a pretty nice truck, hasn't broken as much as the Ranger 
had at this point in it's life, but it sucks down fuel like nothing I've 
driven before and then the loan consumes my paycheck. Ouch, but it is a really 
nice truck. The thing is so huge I've parked Robyn's grand Cherokee and remarked,
"Oh yah, I'm driving the compact".

	Boats on the other hand Have to be named. Scarlet Fire, Boylston, Ma.
as officially registered with the USCG. Nuthin Shakin isn't an official 
registration type name, but a great boat just the same. 

Now human names I'l bring that up somewhere else. 
Geoff

I'm not sure, but I think the name I most often call my truck is the same
one that rfb most often calls his bassett hound...

;-)

    New poll
    Hypothetical scenario...
    Seeing as John Salvi is on trial for abortion clinic murders, who here
    thinks that he should be tried for a capital crime ala the new
    federal carjacking bill passed recently?
    And if so should it carry a death penalty?

>                     -< It was a political statement, no? >-

	to me, political statements don't involve murder...

>    ala the new federal carjacking bill passed recently?
	
	don't know what that means, Chris...

>    And if so should it carry a death penalty?

	I'm against the death penalty...I'm for life -without parole-,
	if guilty...

	Debess

    thumbs down to the death penalty for me...
    
    how does the fed carjacking bill apply?  
    

    if i remember correctly, carjacking, where murder is involved and a whole
    list of other capital crimes fall under this federal blanket and are
    subject to federal penalties, which hold more severe penalties
    it was just passed within the last year or so

I think, if they prove he did it, they should throw the book at the *sshole.
But before that, they should completely ban all media coverage whatsoever. 
This clown is playing to the media in any way he can - apparently it's his
purpose for doing this in the first place.  Ban all coverage, completely
sequester everyone until it's over and done, and let us know how it turns out. 
Then lock him up for a couple centuries, slipping pizzas under the door until
he explodes like Mr. Creosote.

The man is evil incarnate.

tim

    as serious as that last reply was...I'm crackin up!
    
    I actually heard that because of appeals, etc, it costs shitloads (and
    that's alot) more monies to put someone to death than it does to
    inprison them for life....wierd 
    
    rfb

re:      <<< Note 497.147 by STAR::OCTOBR::DEBESS "Wake Now, Discover..." >>>

>>                     -< It was a political statement, no? >-
>
>	to me, political statements don't involve murder...

Sure they do.

>>    And if so should it carry a death penalty?

The man went to the clinic and shot to death 2 people.  It can probably be
proven that he went to the clinic with the intent of killing people.  This
is what is necessary for a death penalty.  Whether he deserves it or not is
another question, but I believe his actions correlate with what we consider
a capital crime.

I just hope they don't invoke the insanity plea.   I'm sure that's what
Salvi's outburst last week in court was.

I hope he gets at least life without parole.  The death penalty would
probably be a good deterrent to those rabid pro-lifers who would consider
doing the same thing again.  This case will definitely set a precedent and
I hope it sets the right one, rather than teaching people that crime does
pay, as was done throughout the 80's with crack dealers, rapists and
murderers.

adam

    is it just me or is there some disconnect in rationality here?...
    these people are "pro-life" as they say, but they will martyr someone
    who kills 2 innocent women who are receptionists at a clinic or flip the 
    switch on some murderer/violent offender in a blink of an eye
    

    

>    is it just me or is there some disconnect in rationality here?...

	some would see a disconnect in rationality in my point of view too -
	don't believe in the death penalty, do believe that abortion should
	be an option...

	fwiw, I'm sure a -lot- of pro-life supporters don't respect or condone
	what Salvi did...

	but, as to the death penalty, I do find it hard to understand how
	one could be pro-life and pro-death-penalty.  I can explain the
	supposed dichotomy of my leanings -> I don't think of a fetus
	as a living human (yet), I do think of the pregnant woman as a
	living human, and I do think of the murderer on death row as a
	living human.  

	Debess

    throw the "2 counts of murder" thing against a person who kills a
    pregnant woman and we got a trichotomy....
    
    i do not have enough faith in my judicial system to say that every
    execution has been of someone who was definitely guilty....
    
    there is a margin of error ..but in this case, if we do execute Salvi,
    he becomes a martyr....so it is catch 22....
    I say fry the sick  basta#d anyways...margin of error or not

>	but, as to the death penalty, I do find it hard to understand how
>	one could be pro-life and pro-death-penalty.  I can explain the

    It's easy, I think.  A baby hasn't done anything yet to
    deserve dying for.  A killer has (so the argument goes).

    In my book the government simply shouldn't be given the power
    to put its own citizens to death...  it will inevitably be
    misused not to mention inequitably applied.

    I also happen to think, from my own perspective, that life
    behind bars would be the worst sort of punishment imaginable.

    As for abortion, my feeling is if you're going to deprive 
    couples of the right to an abortion then you'd better be
    prepared to pay for the kid's upbringing.

    Tom

    Salvi has been going for the insanity thing from the start as i
    understand it...  fwiw, the news said the other night that it's an
    incredibly low percentage of times that the insanity defense actually
    works...
    
    and i don't think Mass has the death penalty...
    
    cameras have been barred from the court room...  banning all media 
    coverage is a mistake, and i think impossible...  someone has to be
    let in to witness "due process"...
    
    i don't think this current trial involves federal statutes at all...
    even though he is supposedly wanted elsewhere for the same thing
    (penn?) i believe, it's not a federal thing, but rahter two seperate 
    state cases...
    
    				da ve

Yeah, to paraphrase someone I saw on the toob this morning, I have a
hard time entrusting the judgement of a death sentence to an
institution that can't keep the national parks open from week to week.

Re: Salvi, I've seen some of the little footage available of this guy,
in court, and he's definitely playing to the camera - more than anyone
I've ever seen before - playing the crazy man with a message to the
hilt.  Death would be a blessing to him, really.  Lock him up in a box
and let him spend the next forty years in darkness where the worm
belongs.

...not that I'm hostile or anything....;-)

tim

Salvi is a freaking loon.  If he believes a 10th of what he foams away
at, he should be in the loony bin.  However, I, for one, do not believe
that a judgement of insanity removes one from the consequences of 
ones actions.  He has committed two heartless murders with intent and
premeditation.  Whether or not he was in his right mind at the time
should not absolve him of this.  And as I understand it, even his 
defense admits that he did the shooting.  So, insane or not, he should
be put away for life.  I think he prefers the death penalty (which 
indeed Massachusetts does not have, and this is not being tried as 
a federal crime at the moment, though since he transported his guns 
across state lines, he possibility exists).  He wants to burn as a martyr.
I say just shove him in jail and forget about him like the creep
he is.

PeterT

    
    "Life in prison" now means 20 years.
    "20 years in prison" now means 5 years.
    "10 years in prison" means 30 days, probation and a $500 fine
    
    Unless of course your a petty drug offender, then all defined 
    sentences apply.

Salvi *is* crazy IMO, really unstable... just look at his eyes.
I don't know if what he's doing is staged or not, nor if it matters.
The guy should be put into protective custody for as long as it takes.

/Ken

re      <<< Note 497.134 by STAR::OCTOBR::DEBESS "Wake Now, Discover..." >>>

my x-cah, the '81 black z28:

"rocket sled"
"black monster"
"ya mon"

the nova, 'cuz it is so freakin' slow:

"the bog"
"the bogva"

	a new poll!

	I'm thinking along these lines cause I'm ALREADY getting psyched 
	that Dylan is coming to New Hampshire!!! next month...and also,
	when y'all were talking about Johnny Cash, and I mentioned how I 
	didn't paricularly like the song he and June Carter chose for that 
	30th anniversary Dylan tribute, I wondered to myself, if Jerry
	had been feeling alright, the Dead of course would have been a
	part of this show.  So...what song would they have done?

	Here's a list of the songs that the Dead covered (when Dylan wasn't
	with 'em, I mean) that were done by someone else that night, so can't 
	choose from them ;-):
 
	Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues - Neil Young
	All Along the Watchtower - Neil Young
	Don't Think Twice, It's All Right - Eric Clapton
	When I Paint My Masterpiece - The Band (Minus R. Robertson)
	Knockin' On Heaven's Door - Everybody 


	my pick would be: Stuck Inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues Again

    
     I always liked that Maggie's Farm tune as done by the Dead.
    
     Filled with Rage!
                
     Sloan 

 
i agree with Cath...  Maggie's!

She Belongs to Me

PeterT

What was the Maggie's they did at the last Garden run? 
Maggies into something else?  Big River?  I just remember
being really impressed at the time...

tim

	maggies > cumberland    ??

Yeah, that was it....cool transition...

    It's All Over Now, Baby Blue

I like all those said so far :)

but you all forgot my fave:

	I Want You

bob.

ps.  that maggies > cumberland was cool

	re: maggie's > cumberland in boston

	it seemed to me that the audience audibly, collectively, *gasped*
	at that transition!

	Debess

m -> c


that was *intense*

	New poll:
	
	Hornsby w/the Dead:
	
	[ ] makes me snore        :-(
	
	[ ] i always wanted more  :-)
	
	
	
	;-)
	
	

    
    want it more!
    
    Things got pretty exotic there during the summer of 1991.
    

I really liked Hornsby solo or as solo piano w/ the Dead.  The combination
of Hornsby and Welnick didn't sit right with me as I thought Vince needed
some room to explore and grow at the start but never got it because Hornsby
loves that part as well so there was this underlying wrestling match :)

So yes and no ... well maybe:)
bobo

re       <<< Note 497.174 by MKOTS3::JOLLIMORE "Always stop at the top" >>>

	New poll:
	
	Hornsby w/the Dead:
	
	[ ] makes me snore        :-(
	
	[XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX ] i always wanted more  :-)
	


hornsby ripped.
he got the whole freakin' band on a RAGE at some of thos eshows.

listen to the tapes.

    my vote goes for Hornsby..
    
    
    rfb

    
    wanted more more more....!!!!
    
    /mj

    
    Hornsby dead shows were my first. He/They sure impressed me!
    
    Sloan

wanted more!!!!!!!!!

    More with the Dead, solo he's a major bore.  He got bonus points for
    noodling between songs.
    
    

From:	US2RMC::"dclark@ultranet.com" "Dave Clark"  3-APR-1996 12:40:34.32
To:	mkots3::jollimore
CC:	
Subj:	Here's my vote!

	New poll:
	
	Hornsby w/the Dead:
	
	[X] makes me snore        :-(
	
	[ ] i always wanted more  :-)
	
	;-)

    I vote more, he is better than Vince (IMHO)

      I agree with JC......Bruce's presence definitely inspired some
    some hot jams when he was sitting in....I vote for more bruce (hornsby
    and even mandaro...!!)
    
    
                         :-)

	thanks for your votes.
	i agree with the masses: more was good.
	i listened to 9/25/91 on the way in help>slip>frank and towards
	the end of frank's bruce just starts this little jam with jerry.
	anything but boring!
	and how about the gahdin show where he jammed w/the drummers,
	just before drums? it was only about 2 mins, but i wished it
	cudda gone on a little longer. it was intense!!
	
	the official tally:  more = 9   bore = 1
	with 1 undecided (make up your mind yapgood! ;-)
	
	:-)
	
	new poll in the next note ---->

	another "With The Dead" Poll(tm)
	
	Branford Marsalis w/the Dead:
	
	[ ] made me cringe           :-(
	
	[ ] wanted a Branford binge! :-)
	
	i never saw him live, but i liked what i heard on tape.
	i'd go with wanted a binge, cuz i wished i cudda seen him.
	

       Hornsby w/the Dead:

        [ ] makes me snore        :-(

        [X] i always wanted more  :-)

       Hornsby w/out the dead

        [X] makes me snore        :-(

	
	Branford Marsalis w/the Dead:
	
	[ ] made me cringe           :-(
	
	[X] wanted a Branford binge! :-)
	
/Ken

why do i feel like i'm playing the world's worst
game show (reference to "singled out"for the non-
eMpTytV viewers)?????

i liked Branford, but i'm not sure "binge" would be
what i'd like...

i guess given the choices though i'd have to say binge...

			da ve

yaPgood's made up his mind...

He loves Brandford w/ the Dead.

re:  Hornsby - gotta love that little statue :) who was that anyhow?
Bach?  Beethoven?  

And Hornsby solo a bore?  I dunno - the night of the Rock and Roll Hall
of Fame Extravaganza Hornsby the bore did ONE AWESOME little set of tunes
deadicated to JJG.  It was possessed.  Anything but boring...

Boring Hornsby - ya I consider the fist stuff that made him popular to
be boring but I think he's doing an excellent job now...

yaPgood
:)

actually, this is a lot more fun than that game show
ever could be....  :^)

have you ever seen the show "singled out"????  personally
i find it pretty repulsive...  they take 50 women (hostess:"we've
got 50 gorgeous, horny sex craved women in the corral for you
to choose from!!!!  all you have to do is sort 'em out!!") and 1
guy...  they ask the one guy a series of either/or questions, typically
based on physical characteristics or sexual history/proclivity, and 
gradually filter out "undesirables" (you know, the ones whose butts
are too wide, or chest isn't large enough, or wont have sex with a stranger 
in publ;ic on the first date) til they find the "right one"...  then they
switch and put 50 guys (aka "well hung, hunky, sex starved studs")
in the corral and repeat it with a woman answering the questions...

"ok Bob!  what category next?"
"i'll take chest size"
"your choices are, lot's for pleasure?  or sunken treasure!"
"well, i'm kinda shallow and am really only interested in them as
toys, so i'll take the first one, lots for pleasure!"
"ok, all you flat chested women... get out of here!!!!!!"

just a little disgusting...  :^(

				da ve

    the interesting thing to me about shows like "singled out,"
    and all the phil/oprah/jerry/leeza/montel/bozo tlk shows
    is that these people are *volunteers*!  (except for the
    ambushees; but the victims usually hang around to play, too...).
    
    seems that most people will do anything to be on TV!
    so I find it more interesting than disgusting...
    and sometimes the voyeur in me discovers a new kink!
    
    /bruce

    I'd love for there to be a b-chip (for "bozo"), to filter
    out the crap.  It's too bad that CSPAN is on cable;  there's almost
    nothing on cable worth the $25 per month.  I'd be happy with
    just PBS and CSPAN...
    
    /bruce

>    nothing on cable worth the $25 per month.  I'd be happy with

    Mystery Science Theatre!

    :-)

    
    Het Tom, you an MST3K fan?????

    I'm a fan of both Hornsby and Branford.  With Hornsby, I liked him
    before I knew that he was a 'head - yes I do have a few MOR brain cells
    running around!
    
    With Branford, one of the best shows I ever saw was the Nassau Dark
    Star.  It was a magical night!
    
    I really believe that guests inspired the boyz to a new plane.  I think
    it worked more often than not.  It forced them to extend and try
    harder.
    
    Fredda

    Oh yeah, they have me rolling on the floor.  I especially
    like the little segments with the robots and humans interacting.

    Guy in my group used to have a gumball dispenser, this was
    before I heard about the show.  He said "You don't know
    what that is?  That's Tom Servo!"  And so it was.

    I read an article a few months back saying the Comedy Channel
    was giving up MST3K after this season, but that the show's
    producers were expecting to find a contract with someone else.
    Beats me why they'd give it up now.  Maybe it's time to start
    taping (like I need more tapes!).

    Tom

     
    > Beats me why they'd give it up now.  Maybe it's time to start
    > taping (like I need more tapes!).
    
    	I know people that have 90% of the episodes on tape.
    
    	Their putting out an MST3K movie very soon.
    

re          <<< Note 497.199 by DELNI::DSMITH "Can you see the real me" >>>

>    	I know people that have 90% of the episodes on tape.
    
huh? These people didn't have enough tape to tape an entire episode, so
their's missing a few minutes from it?   :-)

    
    Hornsby - yes 
    Marsalis - yes
    I'd love to hear them with anyone right now!

    MST3k is now in some form of syndication, chopped up into easy to
    digest 60 minute segments.
    
    I haven't heard of any new MST3k. I have a lot of them on tape. I also
    have the originals of a lot of the movies they lampooned (which
    probably says something about my taste in movies)
    
    gary

    yes to Hornsby & Branford (check out 9/10/91 MSG)
    Hornsby's statue is Hall of Famer (baseball, not R&R) Rogers Hornsby
    MST3K movie starts this Friday I believe.
    There a web page (like there is for everything else) but I forget the
    URL about CC potential shelving of MST3K
    
    David Murray also had some nice shows with the boyz and JGB.
    
    Question, as opposed to a survey I suppose. What's with the seeming
    flair-up of VInce bashing (moreso on the net then in here) over the
    past coule of months? I thought he was doing quite well over the past
    couple of years. Tough to think the "compasionate" deadhead crowd
    settling into "vince isn't Brent who wasn't Keith who wasn't Pigpen"
    drivle. I'm sure everyone has a preferred keyboardist, but given this
    it's good the boyz didn't keep the band together with another guitarist
    after Jerry died or that person would have been run out of town faster
    than Bill Buckner.
    
    jeff

	more!

	binge!

	all new sleaze_game_show_ripoff poll question:
	
	winter?
	
	MORE, MORE, I love when it snows		:-)
	
	NO MORE, man, this really
				... bites the big one	:-(

		
	(jc, mon you can vote only once!! ;-)
	

	I really do love winter...but it's not winter anymore...I want
	every season to have its fair chance...bring on the flowers!!!

	Debess

    
    Winter ended a while ago.  Bring on seasonal weather.

score one for "this bites"...

			da ve

    
    Yep, this bites.....
    
    

Definitely bites the big one.  Lost a tree in my front lawn
cuz o' this sh!t.

tim

	Bring on the SNOW

	6-12" tonight.

	never enough snow.
	
	winter has been short-changed too many times (like, last year,
	total snow fall 14" or so!  weak.) and it is now time to make
	up for those lame,lame winters.............

	Bring on the SNOW

	6-12" tonight.

	never enough snow.
	
	winter has been short-changed too many times (like, last year,
	total snow fall 14" or so!  weak.) and it is now time to make
	up for those lame,lame winters.............

	Bring on the SNOW

	6-12" tonight.

	never enough snow.
	
	winter has been short-changed too many times (like, last year,
	total snow fall 14" or so!  weak.) and it is now time to make
	up for those lame,lame winters.............

	Bring on the SNOW

	6-12" tonight.

	never enough snow.
	
	winter has been short-changed too many times (like, last year,
	total snow fall 14" or so!  weak.) and it is now time to make
	up for those lame,lame winters.............

	Bring on the SNOW

	6-12" tonight.

	never enough snow.
	
	winter has been short-changed too many times (like, last year,
	total snow fall 14" or so!  weak.) and it is now time to make
	up for those lame,lame winters.............

	Bring on the SNOW

	6-12" tonight.

	never enough snow.
	
	winter has been short-changed too many times (like, last year,
	total snow fall 14" or so!  weak.) and it is now time to make
	up for those lame,lame winters.............

Oopps, guess i voted tooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many times


:-)

Wait till you get a few years' of plowman's bills under yer
belt, and see how much ya like that white sh!t...;-)

I snowblo it myself and enjoy every minute of it.
no plowmon.
:-)

bites bites bites bites bites bites bites
let me add...

THIS BITES !!!

Sox have home opener, and get snowed out in April...Bites...no softball practice
yet...bites

    Mr. Plow, that's the name.
    
    
    

    always one of my favorite Simpson's, on last night

    This week's US News had an article on sex on TV and a Homer Simpson
    quote in the first paragraph: "The answers to life's problems aren't at
    the bottom of a bottle.  They're on TV."

    
    Got caught up on the past two 2 week Sunday episodes last night at a
    Simpson gathering.  The "Troy McClure" episode and the "Bart on the
    Road" episode were both excellent.  Like last season, the episodes are
    getting better as they go along. 
    
    IMO: Simpson's and MST3

    
    >>I snowblo it myself and enjoy every minute of it.
    >>no plowmon.
    
    JC, if you really were a hardcore snow lover, you'd shovel it, or
    simply leave it in your driveway
    
    Hogan :^)

Great, JC.  Come by and blow my driveway too.

I'm up over $700 in plowing costs for this year - at $35 a
pop!  But, no choice - you've seen my driveway -- it'd eat a
snowblower in no time...

Sigh.  Come on Summer!!

tim

    I like Homer's other tv-related quote:  "It gives so
    much and it asks so little in return!"

    Tom

Well, If i left the driveway unblown, deb would get angry
w/ me.  plus, snowblowing is fun, espeically after a heaping
bowl of oats washed down with 2-3 homebrews.  let'er go and
watch that great white stuff from the sky fly!!!

> plus, snowblowing is fun, espeically after a heaping
> bowl of oats washed down with 2-3 homebrews.  let'er go and
> watch that great white stuff from the sky fly!!!

Not to mix threads here, but to quote Homer Simpson again,
from his Mr. Plow commercial:

	"Are you tired of losing fingers?  Call Klondike-5 7725"

Dan

>    Mr. Plow, that's the name.

	saw this episode yesterday! :-)
	
	"Mr. Plow, that's the name. That name again is Mr. Plow."
	
	:-)
	

	by chance (yeah, right ;-) last nite, i got a copy of a 91 msg
	show with *both* hornsby and marsalis (and branford played the
	whole show!)
	
	a yawner? HaH.   a SMOKER!


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	          ///___ \   ///___ \ 
	          |__`-- |   |__`-- | 
	           `---  |    `---  | 
	              |  |       |  | 
	
	(thanks, strobel!)

	Well back to that snow question. Gotta love it. 
	Warm spring weather, Gotta love it!!

	Remember this next year, It Always snows in April. I am 
more confident of snow in April than I am of snow in December. 
But it always goes away quickly. 

	Now if I could get a chance to work on the boat I'll also 
look forward to those hot sweltering summer days when the sea water 
is 78 degrees and feels refreshingly cool as you crash through the waves. 
Yesterday's brisk wind made for some awefully cold images of sailng. I'm 
anxious for heat!

Geoff

    
    How 'bout a poll stating your favorite GD Tune and why.
    If you could only pick one song what would it be and why?
    
    
    Toby

    
    
    
    
    
    
    If I could only pick one then
    My Favorite would be Shakedown Street.
    When this album was released, it was the time I started getting into
    the dead. I remember my best friend's uncle who grew up in the
    60's remarking that this album was the "Disco Dead" .  Made me laugh.
    This song always sounds great in concert too! Makes me want to boogie
    every time I hear it.
                                     
    
    Toby
    

    Got to be Dark Star...  from Live/Dead...  This is the tune
    and the album that let me really understand what the Dead was
    all about....
    
    The music is  so sensual, and the lyrics so rich...  I realized 
    that I could appreciate the Dead on so many different levels.
    All at once!
    
    And, almost a dead heat: Eyes of the World, which has the same 
    musical qualities, but  directs the attention in, rather than out...  
    IMO, Eyes is the intellectual flip side of DS.
    
    (I know that's cheating, but hey!)
    
    /bruce

The Terrapin Station Suite....

you may argue that it's really more than one tune (hence
the term "suite") but to me, this tune is their crowning 
achievement...  lyrically, musically, production, the whole
thing...

			da ve

I always thought of the Dead as American folk musicians.  The one area where
they seemed to push the envelope was the psychedelic/space/jam with steam of
consciousness lyrics, but for me it was the roots behind much of the music 
from their early blues, R&B and jugband influences to later jazz and complex 
compositions like Eyes of the World.  UJB is my pick because of the subject 
matter of the lyrics, the acoustic guitar work on the album and the fact that 
in concert this song usually had a great jam sometimes with another song 
interspersed. ...how does the song go? ...he's come to take his children home.

Jim

    i will go you one furthur and say the combo of Scarlet Begonias->Fire on
    the Mountain......
    the segue into Fire in such shows like the 5/8/77 and the bass licks
    Phil lays down for Scarlt in 6/9/77 and others are indescribable......
    
    whenever this kicked in at a show....every stranger there was stopping
    everyone else just to shake their hand while the heart of gold band
    played                    

    EYES for Patty
    Terrapin for me.....
    
    rfb

    
      i concur with leblanc on scarlett/fire. definitely awesome summertime
    cranking turn_the_volume_to_11 ragin' tune(z)!!!! really gets the blood
    pumpin'!
                                                                ^dave

this is tuff...

Ripple/Brokedown Palace...American Beauty was my intro to the Dead, and still
ranx as just about my fave
Terrapin Station...just a great piece of music
Playin in the Band...cuz I do
U.S. Blues...cuz I sang it in my 1st band when I was 18, and cuz I'm singin' it
in Drama...

Ripple may do it though...

Wes

Playin'


huge, huge potential for some very, very, very intense
improv jamming.  some playin's really lack: the dead attempt
to explore, only to go nowhere.  other kick: the explore, bring
you in and out of different places, and the music builds crazily
and intensely.  i know i've seen some killer playin's (3-24-90)
and whenever the band moved into playin', i knew that there
was potential for a real trip to the unknown!!!!

  I can't argue with a single title mentioned so far...
  
  And I know someone's going to raise a flag for Stella Blue (I happened to
  stumble on it in mid '72 and couldn't believe it...).

  And I still think GDM should release a 19 minute Dark Star b/w a 36 minute
  Cryptical...  The ultimate single.

  But I'll go with China Cat -- the Jerry/Bob/Phil interaction, the
  baroque-like (jazz-like) interweaving of guitar/guitar/bass, is what first
  thrilled me about the Dead, and it's great on that one.  I think I first
  heard a (taped) live China Cat in '71.  Recently used it to introduce my
  girlfriend to the real Dead, and she got it immediately.  - JayC.

    nice to have girlfriends like that, eh???   %^)
    
    rfbn

	my favorite tune is the Other One...I just love the way
	it builds, and builds and BUILDS - especially out of space -
	where you can hear little hints of it a loooooong time before
	it really begins - the way they converse with eachother with
	the music "shall we play this?" "no, I want to play this"
	"oh, ok, let's go with that" - and then Phil drops the bomb
	and it takes off...I love the feeling of being on the edge
	of danger that both the music and the lyrics invoke...and at
	the same time being on the edge of beautiful magic...

	;-) of course the real reason it's my favorite, is because
	it has my name in it "Debess to never, never land" ;-)

	Debess

    "Debess to never never land"....ya know i could never figger those
    lyrics out...%^)
    
    I change my entry to Wharf Rat...."I'll get up and fly away"
    
    
    rfb

    Black Throated Wind,  I enjoy the lyrics

    
    Has to be Ripple.....
    
    When things are really good, or really bad, when I get a chance to
    listen to a single song to reflect on the moment, I usually take out
    American Beauty and listen to Ripple.  It says it all for me.
    
    Hogan

    
    Terrapin Station
    (Hampton 87)
    
    
    
    
      the end.

The WSJ just ran a 8-page section on American Opinion.
Makes for interesting reading... questions ran the gambut
from politics to economy to lifestyle.  interesting reading,
at least i find it so.

ok, one question i wanted to ask in here:

everyone does something in their life that is "bad" for their
health.  cigarette smoking, eating ice cream daily (mmmm), drinking
beer/booze all the time, having sex!, etc.


if you had to choose a single "bad" thing that you wish you could
do and cause absolutely ZERO harm to your long-term health, what would
it be?

    The thing I do that's most damaging to my health
    (according to current medical wisdom) is to eat
    way too many spicy pig parts (bacon, hotdogs, wursts, etc).
    I would sure like that to be a freebie!
    
    /b

    sex is bad for you?
    
    
    

    hmmm... real hard to pick just one from yer list JC, %^)
    
    I've been told I drink too much beer sometimes
    
    I really, really, really, wish I could get in better shape without haveing
    to exercise....no, make that "I wish i could get in better shape just
    by drinking beer."
    
    rfb

    How about the Terrapin from Eugene '78
    The C.E. Theme is in there somewhere as well
    
                                               Ross

    
        re: jc's survey
    
            definitely smokin' the weed. other than that i live a very
        healthy lifestyle. no cigarettes, eat healthy most of the time,
        exercise like a nut, don't drink much. but there's nothin' like
        sparkin' one at the end of a long day, or at the top of the large
        mountain you just hiked up, or when you're hangin' on the beach,
        or during that long drive, ect., ect., ect.
            well....you asked! 8^)
    
       ps> i'll definitely be at hempfest this year (boston common,
    september). 

    sex is bad for you?

    sex is bad for you???????????????????????????????????

> sex is bad for you?

Reminds me of a Woody Allen line.  Something like:

Is sex dirty?

Only if you do it right.


PeterT

re: is sex bad for you?

absolutely not, most of the time.
i think that one is more like "have sex w/o worrying about the consequences",
ie, catching a desease.

    
    >re: is sex bad for you?
    
	Sure....the repercussions can be utterly horrible.
    
    	unwanted stork deliveries, Aids, Std's...etc.
    
    re - Dave           
	
    	Hey alright! :-)

	>re: is sex bad for you?

	ya don't ya go blind if you do it too much with yerself?  
	at least that's what some people say   8-)  8-)  8-)

	This is tougher than pickin' one favorite tune...

	lets see  I love meat/cheese foods.... Beer .... Oatbran

	I'd probably hafta say oatbran.

	You can't breathe the air...
	you can't drink the water...
	you can stay out in the sun...
	you can't eat meat...
	you can't drink beer...
	you can't smoke...
	you can't have sex...

	I think I'm depressed now ...


	Toby
	

    This is the lost wallet topic, yes?
    
    We went to the Lowell Folk Festival on Sat.  It was a pretty good time,
    but a little too crowded for an almost 2-year old.  Anyway, as we were
    getting off the bus, I found a pouch on the seat near me.  I got off
    and tried to catch up to the owner but couldn't.  Upon opening, it
    turned out to be a small Olympus auto-focus camera, just the kind of
    camera I've been wanting for hiking trips, etc.
    
    The bus was gone and I wasn't sure what to do.  I thought about turning
    it into the info booth, but I figured that whomever I gave it to would
    end up with a new camera.  Maybe I've been to too many Dead shows, but
    I trusted that I'd run into the guy who'd lost it at some point during
    the day.  I remembered what they were wearing and would have been able
    to recognize them again (I didn't see anyone else with an Elvis
    "Graceland" t-shirt).
    
    I never saw them and as we got back on the shuttle bus, I asked the
    driver if anyone had reported losing a camera.  He said yes, and that
    the guy had come back on the bus to look for it.  He'd already taken
    them back and couldn't think of anything for me to do but keep it.  I
    was going to leave a note at the train station but there was no
    bulletin board.
    
    I feel like I subliminally stole it.  If it had been something I didn't
    want, I would've have turned it over to the first official looking
    person I ran into.  Since it was a camera, I convinced myself that
    anyone I turned it into would most likely have kept it for themselves. 
    I should've waited for the bus to come back and given it to the driver,
    as it turned out, he was the only driver and a nice guy.
    
    I've lost a few small things lately, including a favorite t-shirt, and
    I _never_ lose anything.  Hopefully that guy's been on a finding spree
    lately.  One man gathers what another man spills.
    
    Jamie

    What this world needs is a "lost & found" web site.

    Tom

    how bout an add in the Lowell newspaper??  good karma, and all that
    
    
    rfb

    
    I was at the Lowell Folk Fest as well.  Didn't see any wallets or
    cameras but did see a couple decent acts.

    I was there Sunday afternoon (hooked up with Josh who showed me
    where the Southeast Asian restaurant is.. been looking for that!);
    anyway I decided next year the whole festival is a "must".

    Tom

>    where the Southeast Asian restaurant is.. been looking for that!);

    Is that Joe's SE Asian restuarant ?   I feasted there once...
    interesting place!

    /Ken

>    Is that Joe's SE Asian restuarant ?   I feasted there once...

    It's on Salem or Market St, I didn't see "joe" but I don't know.
    The buffet, when they have it, is real cheap.  

>>    Is that Joe's SE Asian restuarant ?   I feasted there once...
>
>    It's on Salem or Market St, I didn't see "joe" but I don't know.
>    The buffet, when they have it, is real cheap.  

    Was the buffet in the back room with the beer cooler ?

    I guess the place is run by a Vietnam Vet who married a Vietnamese
    woman.

    /Ken

>    Was the buffet in the back room with the beer cooler ?

    Yup!

                   <<< Note 497.270 by TEPTAE::WESTERVELT >>>

>    Was the buffet in the back room with the beer cooler 
>    Yup!

Yup been there more than once too...and it's amazing I went back :) after
what I saw lurking in the back there by the buffet.

bob

>    Was the buffet in the back room with the beer cooler ?

yes, and

>    I guess the place is run by a Vietnam Vet who married a Vietnamese woman.
yes.

They used to have the buffet Mon-Thurs. eves, except in the winter.
but, they stopped having it in the evenings this year.  :-(
I used to for the buffet take-out every week!

 - Josh

>Yup been there more than once too...and it's amazing I went back :) after
>what I saw lurking in the back there by the buffet.

I hear those things are tasty w/ hoisin sauce  ;-)