Conference rdvax::grateful

Whatever you do, go to Gilroy (the Garlic Capital of the World) and bring me
back some garlic :-)



Also, check the San Francisco conference, THEBAY::SAN_FRANCISCO.  Don't press
KP7 or any of that cuz I don't know how to make that thing happen.\\




Jum

    drive to Veneta dammitt!!
    
    :-)
    
    /bruce

T!ng, how long is the drive to Veneta?...  over eight hours?

tim

    I would also be interested in any opinions on what to do in San Fran. 
    I think my wife and I are going to head to California this fall and it
    looks like San Fran is going to be the location.  I have never been out
    west so I am really excited about going.  Halloween might be a good
    time to go ;-), but besides seeing the Dead what suggestions do y'all
    have.
    
    Thanks,
    :-)
    Scott g

 If you are out there before the end of August you can stop in Mt View and
see my kids who are staying with their grandmother :-)





Jum

    
    12 hour drive from Veneta to SF
    
    See you on the road?! 
    
    :-)
    
    

It's about 10-12 hours depending on how fast you drive ;-) and how many
stops you make.  Last year, we split up the drive into 2 days - really nice
-> do it if you can!  We're flying up this year instead of driving since
Randy couldn't take the time off.  By the way, Tim, I think you can change
your airline reservations for $25??  So if you feel like going to Shoreline,
I have extra tickets 8-).

peace,
t!ng

    We'll be staying in SF area for the NY's show or whatever they plan to
    do...BUT how long to get from SF to LA .  No laffing .. this is a
    person who grew up in VT where you could get from end to end in 2 1/2
    hrs or side to side in less.  I have family in LA and I want to
    surprise them by making them think I know what I am doing.
    
    carol

Been a while since I've driven it, but depending on how you go 5-6 hours I
think..





Jum

	I got a week and 3 days to drive from Eugene to Mt View
	and then Mt View to Portland...should be interesting,
	I may be able to catch a Shorline two.

If you go to the Wine Country, I'd suggest avoiding Napa in favor of Sonoma
The main winery road in Napa is overrun.  Sonoma has many different areas that
are much quieter.  Id recommend the Russian River area and Alexander Valley.
You can get Winery maps everywhere around there to show you where to go.
You can camp at "Lake" Sonoma, north of the Russian River (its man made).
The town of Sonoma is quite charming also (a bit yuppied lately) and is near
Jack London State Park (where he used to live) which is interesting.
If you must go to Napa get off of the Highway (I think its 12) and go over to
the Silverado Trail which runs parallel.

Its 7-8 hours driving LA->SF on I-5.  Or about 2 days on Route 1.  The 2 days 
will be much shorter unless you really get off on looking at agrabuissness and
cannot stand panaramic views of the ocean.  Be sure to stop at Big Sur (ask 
directions to Piffer State Beach) and Point Lobos.

>Been a while since I've driven it, but depending on how you go 5-6 hours I
>think..

5 to 6 hours would get you into Santa Barbara at most.  Try 7-8 hours and
add anything you deem appropriate to make up for the time you'll spend in
LA's perpetual traffic jams (LA has traffic jams at 2 in the morning! 8-/).

peace,
t!ng

    I was just in San Francisco at the end of April/beginning of May
    for my honeymoon.  It's a great city, my husband and I were all over 
    the place!  We only wish it wasn't so far away!
    
    I suggest you go to the Sweetwater Cafe in Mill Valley.  A lot of
    local musicians play there, but a lot of celebrities play there
    as well and will show up spontaneously and play a few songs!
    Jerry's played there on a few occassions, as well as Bob.  Elvis
    Costello, Bonnie Raitt, John Lee Hooker, etc.
    
    They have pictures hanging up of all the people who have played
    there along with some memorabilia (guitars, etc.)  Mill Valley is
    beautiful, we ate at an Italian restaurant a couple doors down
    from the Sweetwater that was excellent (can't remember the name,
    but the bartender at Sweetwater recommended it).
    
    FYI - Mill Valley is north over the Golden Gate Bridge, just
    follow the signs, probably about 1/2 hour drive or so from the city.
    
    Oh, I also recommend Sonoma over Napa as well, although Robert Mondavi
    is in Napa.  That's my favorite wine.
    
    Have a great trip!
    
    /Tricia :-)
    
    

    DC is back yeah !!!!!
    
    :') feel better :')
    
    Chris

    
    OK - everyone is giving me the idea that if I plan to do both SF and LA
    in the same week, that I'd better get realistic and plan to fly from SF
    to LA.  That should take about 1 1/2 hours as oppposed to driving the
    distance which could take over a day, apparently?  So who has recent
    experience with cost for such a flight.  is it like buying a shuttle
    ticket from Logan to Dulles, $$-wise? 
    
    carol

    
    About 3 years ago, I heard about a bus service that operates in CA
    (maybe other states, also) and a claim to fame is that they are an
    alternative bus company.  That is, they charge very low rates - get
    from city to city in reasonable time (not a commuter bus though) and
    also stop to put on barbques on the longer rides.  I think it was
    called the Green Bus. HAs anyone 'else' ever heard of such a thing?
    
    Or am I california dreaming
    carol
    

I flew from LA -> SF in May of '91.  29 bucks!
No airline wars at that time, either.  It's just a
heavily travelled, and thus cheap, route...
I had a mid-morning, mid-week, 1 way ticket...

Dave

>    That should take about 1 1/2 hours as oppposed to driving the
>    distance which could take over a day, apparently?  

Over a day??!?!  Wherever did you get that idea??  It takes between
7 to 8 hours to drive from SF to LA depending on how fast you drive
and the amount of traffic in LA 8-).  We drove from Hacienda Heights
(a suburb east of LA) to Mountain View in 6 hours (SF is about 45
minutes north of Mountain View).  A lot of the highways between LA
and SF that we took had a speed limit of 65.  For us, it's cheaper.
The one-way fares nowadays run from $40 to $80 and *may* save you
more time, but not guaranteed.  It depends on where you are going
and who you fly with.  Last time, I put my parents on a flight going
from SF to LA on TWA - the flight was at 3, it was delayed till 5:30
8-/.  I got them on another flight.  Traffic out/into LAX is also
pretty horrendous.  Just things you may want to consider...

peace,
t!ng

    >Over a day??!?!  Wherever did you get that idea??  It takes between
    
    whew .... sorry for the error. 7-8 hours of driving IS a day for me.
    Glad to get a varoety of responses .. the SF notesfile has been very
    helpful also.
    
    c

    'course if you drive, you can check out things like San Simeon
    (Hearst's castle), Esalen, etc on the way. Depends which is more
    important to you, being there or getting there (wherever there is).
    
    gary

    
    
    	San Franciso  ...  Slowly I turn ... Step by..
    
    
    	Personal Favorite places in the general mid-norhtern california
    	area...
    
    
    		1)  Pfieffer Beach, southern Big Sur area;
    		    There's a little sign just south of the the camping /
    		    restaurant/saloon. Kindof a locals place. Pfieffer has
    		    3 beach fronts; the first has this wild hollowed
    		    archway in some rocks facing dead west - some wicked 
    		    cool sunset photos through there! The second is as you 
    		    continue around to some rocks - this is supposed to by
    		    semi clothing optional. The third front is totally 
    		    isolated; you gotta do some serious rockin' to get
    		    around the point, but once you do, you deserve to take
    		    your clothes off! Absolutely pristine! There is nothing
    		    else in the universe once you get there. Like, TOTAL
    		    peace and serenity, dude(ette).
    
    		2) Garberville, Humboldt County!!
    
    		   Small little town with big gooey buds! Town is one
    		   little strip with a post office for the growers to 
    		   contact the outside world and a bar at each end for
    		   them to get together and see whos got the best! I had
    		   a terrible time there!  Reminded me of the Melkweg hash
    		   bar in Amsterdam!
    
    		3) Shelter Cove; near Redway, also Humbolt I think, maybe
    		   Mendecino. Take this wild windy road through the coastal 
    		   range and come out to this little jut sticking into the 
    		   ocean so that it protects the cove. Very nice.
    
    
    		I just hate California....  They think they got it all!
    		The BEST Coast, dude....  whadda they know...
    
    		BTW:  Hoping to go to Berkeley for some grad work! 

Thats right, you can spend $400 if you go to the airport and just
buy it at the counter.  There are all sorts of deals that you
can get ahead of time.  For the cheapest try SouthWest, they
fly to Oakland (which is closer to some parts of SF than SFO),
I think.  They may also fly to SFO from other
than LAX.  There are 5 airports in the general LA area(in LA
terms thats within about 1.5 hours of downtown). Burbank,
which is just a little north of town is my favorite (no trafic,
no hassles, but almost no public transit).  It all depends
on where you are.  LAX is not centrally located, so one of the other
might be closer.

    
     Well, now that the Veneta/Shoreline shows are cancelled, any
    other fun music stuff goin' on out in California between 8/20-8/30
    
    
    Sean

We decided to rent bikes and do a San Juan island or two, assuming they rent 
bikes with kid-carriers....

>Note 273.25 by CSCMA::M_PECKAR 
    
>We decided to rent bikes and do a San Juan island or two

    Er, do you mean the San Juan islands out near Seattle? (this is the
    San Francisco note ;-) 
    
    I'll be meeting up with da ve and BilleJules and a few other folks
    on Orcas Island in the San Juans (Washington) in a couple of weeks. 
    We rented a beach house and some sea kayaks on some sort of nekkid 
    hippy resort type place with hot springs. 
    
    - Gerry

    sounds like fun Ger, say HIGH to Billitier and Jules for us. DOn't
    forget how to apply that all important jaw hold/grip when necessary!
                                                                        rfb

re: Note 273.27 
    
>Don't forget how to apply that all important jaw hold/grip when necessary!
 
    Yeah, we know better than to take Bill for a jeep ride at 13,000 feet
    and pump him full of homebrew, now don't we? ;-) Besides, we'll be at 
    sea level this time so I probably won't need to use it. :-) You can
    thank Bobbb for showing me that maneuver.

    bobb and GerG , I think the jaw hold should be taught at all Red Cross
    1st aid classes along with the himelick manuver %^) SO, Ger, where does
    one grab another during "epasodes"  such as that when at sealevel? I
    suppose that depends on the gender of the grabber and grabee, eh? %^)
                                                                        
    rfb

    Reviving old notes...
    I'll be in SF in a couple weeks... just passing through on the way to
    Siberia... We plan to go to Ming's in Palo Alto for Dim SUm, then hang
    out in Oakland, Marin Cty, and Affluent Hillsboro with some of Marty's
    relatives (the rich ones, who can afford to live in Affluent Hillsboro)
    
    then get on an Aeroplop (Aeroflot, for the purists) jet and 14 hours
    later we will be in Siberia.
    
    ...michael t. TravelerHead

    Lucky michael t....I've been to SF twice, never long enough, and I
    thought it is a beautiful city, and I enjoyed it big-time...I'm hoping
    we get there when we go to Lake Tahoe for 17 daze in August...I've been
    by the corner of Haight-Ashbury TWICE and haven't been able to stand
    under the sign, but third time should be a charm, and I want my photo
    taken right there...gotta have it...
    
    Wes_Anchor_Steam_Head

    The Eagle Cafe at the foot of Pier 39 has the world's best corned beef
    hash...
    
    Giardelli's has some of the world's best chocolate (excepting Ethel M's
    but NOT excepting Godiva IMO)...
    
    the boyz produce the world's best music...
    
    and my aunt in Marin Cty. cooks up some of the world's best mashed
    potatos! (you need to KNOW somebody to get those)
    
    ...michael t "reminiscing_about_the_Bay"Head
                                  

	welp! yikes! YEhaaa!  it's getting a bit hard to hold
	in my excitement...there must be plenty of love in this
	dream - cause it's coming true!  This time next week,
	we'll be off on our monthlong adventure out west - and
	as hard as it may be to believe for many of you great
	travelers, this will be the first time in my life that
	I'll get this experience.  We've tried to live a pretty
	"simple" life - building up our home by the sweat of our
	brows and help from friends and bartering (no bank loan
	either), we recycle ALOT - like even cars and stuff - so 
	things people throw away as useless to them, many times end 
	up at my house being used eventually - and we've both managed 
	to work parttime most of the years that we've had kids, so we've 
	not had a huge income...I live from paycheck to paycheck sometimes, 
	especially in the winter when carpenters are not in demand too much.
	So, consequently, we've never had the opportunity to do any 
	extensive traveling.
	But, this dream started to take root like a year and a half
	ago and I've been saving towards it every month just like
	a loan payment or something - and before I accepted this 
	job here last fall, I negotiated the time that I knew I
	would need this summer...and it's fast approaching!!!

	anyhow!, our first stop when we disembark from our train trip
	cross country will be San Francisco...my MECCA, my PROMISED LAND!!

	I've read thru this note and am open to any & all other suggestions
	on must-see's and must-do's while we're there.

	I'll be going Furthur at Shoreline (and I will be chanting
	daily "phil phil phil" until then in hopes that he'll grace the 
	stage of his "hometown" ;-) - now wouldn't THAT be cool )

	I'll be in SF on Jerry's birthday - I kinda think I'll take a
	walk from the Golden Gate Park up to H/A and cut this dreadful
	dreadlocked hairwrap, that I've had on my head as a living
	memorial to Jerry, off and leave it somewhere, maybe at 710!, as a
	gesture (or maybe it'll just gross someone out if they find it ;-),
	maybe not )...

	advise away!

	Debess

Debess, obviously "the Haight" is a must, it's a cool 'hood if you've never
been there...Coit Tower is also another cool SF place...it gives you a nice view
of the waterfront area, and is a pretty place at night...

try to get out in the Bay, it's kinda cool to look back at the city from the
Bay...Have Fun, the West rooolz

Wes

    Only having been there once and that was a short time, stay away from
    the "piers", peir 39, 43, etc., unless you want to spend some dough. 
    food, trinkits and beers are rather highly priced on the piers. 
    But if ya got the dough, there are some grate sites and the beers.....
    
    China Town is a must see, of course...I would have liked more time to
    check out Russian Town, Italian Town and all the other little "towns"
    that all border China Town.
    
    Vesuzio's (sp) where Kerowac (sp) hungout before he got famous is cool
    
    
    don't get too bummed at the "park sausage" in Golden Gate Park...that's
    what the locals call the hippie-homeless that are *EVERYWHERE*! 
    (I've been told half of them are undercovers anyway...)
    
    above all...EAT! the foods expensive in Calif, but good stuff! 
    
    go to San Rafeal if you can, see Mt. Tampalis (sp) and the start of the
    redwoods, small ones, but great forest. 
    
    rfb_who really doesn't know anything about SF

    say hi to the homeless chick that has the wood cutout of merlin the
    magician on rollers next to her at haight and ashbury
    
    she will most likely force the cutout on you if you line up under the
    street signs to take a picture

My favorite places in San Francisco aren't there...one is over
the Golden Gate bridge, in Marin County (I think)...just
over the bridge to the west there are paths among the hills
and cliffs...a really neat place to take a little hike and
watch the fog roll around.  Further up the coast (you'd need
a car) is the John Muir park, with the redwoods.

The other place is across the bay, in Berkeley...a few times
now I've had the chance to go over there and cruise around the
campus...it's very peaceful.  There's a town next to it, too, but
something about college campuses I just find relaxing...

Have a wonderful trip...what sort of vehicle did you end up renting?

Dan

    Muir Woods, I second that... Try climbing a hill in Berkeley,
    you can see the whole Bay...  it's awesome.

    You're gonna have some fun! Congrats!!

    Tom

go to North Beach for the clubs and coffee houses...

fisherman's wharf is definitely home of lots of tourist traps and
overpriced food but it's worth visiting once...  lot's of street scene
there too...  lot's of galleries and stuffthre too...  no law that says
you have to spend money... :^)  browsing is fun and fine...

if you're into that sort of thing, the Alcatraz tour is pretty neat...
there's also boats and submarines and stuff totour as well...

the Marin Headlands jjust across the GG Bridge are way fcool...
the old fort there with the gun emplacements and stuff...  no guns
anymore...  just the old defenses...  and if you drive around down 
there you czn find the Marin Marine Mammal Rescue Center that's
way cool too...

GG Park is HUGE...  and walking the park and the Haight is a 
looooong day...  don't be disappointed to find it kind of dirty though...
some neat restaurants there... cheap and unusual...

				da ve

    Another vote for Marin County. Muir Woods is out there and
    the drive along the coast on Route 1 is spectacular. If you
    have the time definitely check out Stinson Beach and Bolinas.
    Bolinas is like a step back in time to the 60s in terms of
    the culture. It's also worth stopping in Sausalito to check
    out the houseboats that some people call home. They're
    beautiful--almost pieces of floating artwork. I bit further
    north of Sausalito is Mill Valley. Somewhere on the main
    street is a wickedly awesome bakery, which is (or was) close
    to the Sweetwater club that Jerry used to play in. 
    
    Check it out--it's not hard to see why the band moved here. I
    was lucky enough to have had to "work" out there a couple of
    times in the 80s. Our afternoon "break" was hiking into the
    rolling hills for the rest of the day;-)

    Rt 1 down the coast will blow your mind

    Check out Point Reyes, they have a neat old lighthouse.

    Tom

The beach.  Santa Cruz.  Yosemite (watch out for falling rocks).
Walk across the Golden Gate Bridge, and check out the trails on
the Marin side.  Another Muir Woods.  Wine country, if you're 
into that.  Lombard Street.  Rte 1.  Vistas (we'd call them scenic
lookouts, here.)  And then you're heading north, right?
Haven't been too far north of there though.

PeterT

hey Chris, I know that Wizard !!!  He's right next to me in the picture of me
under the sign

re:  GG Park

Go there on a Sunday when they block the roads in the park to bikes
and foot traffic only.

I went to a lot of places there when my cousin lived 2 blocks up
the street from one end of the park (like he said..it's big!).   I
was working Lockheed and living in a hotel for 3 months....

I can't remember all the places we went too since I didn't know 
where I was going anyway :)

Eat some real chinese food:)

Check the otters in the kelp beds :)

Enjoy!!!!!!!!!!!

Been there every year for the past five years...my
favorite place.

Muir Woods is gorgeous.  So is Pt. Reyes, I'm told, but
further north.

Sausalito is pretty - some nice restaurants - you can
take the ferry from Fisherman's Warf or the Embarcadero.

Gordon Biersh is in the Embarcardero area - neat
microbrewery place, actually a chain of them in
California.

Gotta vote for North Beach too - check out a dive called
"The Saloon" - blues bands and other live music.

Union Square, Haight, Chinatown, all that downtown
stuff...Coit tower too, as mentioned...Japantown is cool
for sushi...lots of sushi places, and CHEAP...half what
it costs here...;-)  Downtown at night is ugly - lots of
street people and hookers...avoid it. (Market st., etc)

Marin highlands are neat too - the huge hills on the
other side of the Golden Gate Bridge, toward the ocean.

The whole coastline, the Pacific Palisades to Monterey
are gorgeous too.

I'm going there in a month.  Can't wait...even if it is
for work...

Mystery - you must have some suggestions...where's that
Pink Godzilla place? ;-)  I'm in San Jose starting 8/11.

tim

    Gotcha!

    There's a national historic site near Fisherman's Wharf where Route 1
    used to go (part of 1 was by ferry).  They've got several old ships you
    can go on.  There's a small charge, but it's worth it.
    
    Do not miss the Exploratorium!  You'll want to go to the Palace of Fine
    Arts anyway.
    
    If you want to ride a cable car, get on in the early AM or forget it. 
    Also, there's refurbished old (30s-50s) trolleys running on Market St.
    
    Grodon Biersch is very lame, imho (food's good though).  It's worth
    going on free glass night (or hold your own FGN :-)).
    
    Definitely have lunch at Mad Dog in the Fog (see below) -- lunch is
    around $6 and comes with a free pint of great beer.
    
    DON'T DRIVE LIKE I DID!!  :-(
    
    Have fun (yeah, like I'm rilly worried that you won't),
    
    Jamie
    
    
               <<< FRTOS::FRTAPPL01:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BEER.NOTE;2 >>>
                             -< Hic! the Sequel. >-
================================================================================
Note 307.1                   San Francisco Bay area                       1 of 1
ASDG::IDE "My mind's lost in a household fog."       26 lines  24-MAY-1996 18:11
                        -< Toronado/Mad Dog in the Fog >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Since I mentioned it in 10.?, I thought I'd put a mention in the proper
    place.  The Toronado is located at 549 Haight St. (at Fillmore) in San
    Francisco and is by far the best beer bar I've ever been to.  It's
    located in the Lower Haight section, a healthy walk from Golden Gate
    Park and Haight-Ashbury.  The area is slightly run down and had a
    Bohemian atmosphere; I think the residents were forced down the street
    by skyrocketing rents in Haight-Ashbury.  The crowd is somewhat grungy
    and many sported body piercings, which kept me looking to see if anyone
    was leaking beer.  The area and the crowd seemed safe despite
    appearances.
    
    They've got over forty taps, all micros and imports -- no Bud, etc. --
    and another thirty plus bottled beers.  They serve the beers in their
    proper glasses and even have a good selection of Belgian glassware to
    go with the Belgians they offer.  The prices are very reasonable, $2
    before 5 and $3-3.50 after, bottled beer prices were about the same as
    in a liquor store.  The place is decorated with beer paraphenalia,
    including a large lighted Chimay sign.
    
    As if that's not enough, across the street is Mad Dog in the Fog, an
    English bar with a small (compared to the Toronado - around 10 taps)
    but good selection on tap.  And you get a free pint with lunch.
    
    I left my liver in San Francisco.
    
    Jamie

    also in north beach is the city lights book store.  it rambles on and
    was home to poetry readings in the '50 by ginsberg, kerouac, corso,  et
    al.  you can pick up many unusual books there.  highly recommended!
    
    if you have time (and a car) go either to napa or sonoma for the
    wineries - the drive is beautiful and the wine quite tasty.
    
    for an inside look at the cable cars, go to the cable car museum.  it's
    somewhere near chinatown. you get a complete tour of the system, how it
    works, history, etc.  loads of fun!
    
    take BART to the other side of the bay - it's fast, efficient, & clean.
    
    but most of all - have fun!
    
    Fredda       

re: Cable Cars, Jamie's right, get there Early...KAren and I got to the start
of one end (Ghiradelli Square) at whatever time inthe morning, and we had a
1/2 hour wait before they started running...a pretty long line too

        
    My goodness Debess.  If you have car, some of the best things I've ever
    seen await you.  
    
    I recommend you get the hell out of the city, ASAP.  Get over the Golden 
    Gate bridge and head North.  Just keep going and going...anxiety will 
    overcome you and tension will disapear.
    
    You may want to hit Rt 1 for a little while on a Northward venture.  On Rt
    1 you will smell the sweet aroma of eucalyptus trees as you pass through 
    gorgeous coastal towns and rocky coastal cliffs where these cute seals 
    will greet you.  
    
    Then just keep going...your now on rt 101 North, your in the emrald
    triangle...this is where the hippies have gone to rest...you'll see wine 
    country on the right with it's gorgeous, green, valleys, orchards and 
    rolling hills, hot springs...oh my.
    
    Keep going...and then it's the Redwoods.  I'm tellin ya, if you havn't 
    been there, it's where it's at.  It's so damn enchanting, like Hobbit 
    world...but better.  So lush, so beautiful...when I was there I was in a 
    state of permanant dejavu...the smell of cedar is a knock out.  You
    will not be dispointed.  I still remember every detail.
    
    Northward...Northward...Cape Mendacino...Eureka...Oh hell, the almighty
    Orgeon coast...Gold Beach! Coos Bay!! Dune City!!!...oh my God!!!!  
    
    What's the f'in number for Thomas Cooke?!?!?!?!?!?

	I -am- going north Deane...it's just that this is the SanFrancisco
	note ;-)

	after we leave SF, we're going to Yosemite for a few days, then
	maybe down to Big Sur area for a few days, then north...along the
	coast of northern California and Oregon...maybe down the 
	Columbia River/Mt. Hood area from Portland...the Olympic Peninsula
	rainforest, finally into Seattle, and over the Cascades with
	Bobbb and Tree!

	sooo, lots of mention of Muir Woods - if you were going to see
	the Big Trees further north anyways, would you still go to Muir
	Woods?

	I'm gonna print out all these suggestions and take them&you
	with me!

	THANKS everyone!
	Debess

    
    >I -am- going north Deane...it's just that this is the
    >SanFrancisco note ;-)
    
    Oppps.  Oh yeah.  I gotta learn to control myelf. :-)
    
    I am so jealous. 
    
    My experince with SF was... 
    
    "Well, I'm here...it's kinda crowded...kinda politically correct...kinda 
     overwhelming...kinda...like...arrrrggghhhhh....REALITY!...let's get out 
     of here!!!" ;-)

>	I -am- going north Deane...it's just that this is the SanFrancisco
>	note ;-)
>	  :
>	  :
>	sooo, lots of mention of Muir Woods - if you were going to see
>	the Big Trees further north anyways, would you still go to Muir
>	Woods?

Hold on there, pilgrim...you can't have it both ways.  Sauce for the
goose is sauce for the gander (or vice versa).  :-)

Dan

    I don't like big cities....i hate Denver, even dislike what the east
    side of COlo Spgs has become.....but i loved SF. !!!! for a "city",
    it's very "contained" if you will, most western cities sprawl all over
    the place. SF proper seemed small. 
    
    I second all suggestions to go over the GG Bridge to San Rafeal (Marin
    county)
    
    dean-o...curious...how did SF come across as "politically correct"?
    
    tim g....i found the street people and hookers to be very
    entertaining!! %^) esp. the hippie hookers! 
    
    rfb
    
    rfb

    
     >dean-o...curious...how did SF come across as "politically correct"?
    
    	People following the traffic rules way too much and it has this
    	"hey, be liberal or die" type aura about it.  I didn't like SF
    	too much :-/ ...although, unfortunately I didn't get to see the 
    	hippie hookers.

    hey..that's exactly why i DID like SF! shoulda seen the evil looks 
    i got from peds when they thought i was crowding them a little too much
    in the cross walks with my big rental car....east vs. west, to each his
    own , etc. I guess
    rfb

    I'd recommend skipping Muir Woods.  It's for the tour bus crowd who
    won't get more than 1/4 mile from the parking lot.  You'll see plenty
    of big 'uns in Yosemite.
    
    As for Yosemite, we spent a week of our honeymoon there.  Go see the
    valley first thing in the morning, after noon it's like rte 128 with
    scenery.  Are you planning to camp?  The valley CGs are crowded, we
    stayed in one called Wolf Pass (?), just outside the valley at 4k ft. 
    I recommend it.
    
    I heartily second the cable car museum, it's also the power plant for
    the cars.  There's one line that runs perpendicular to the
    Powell-Market St. (Union Sq. - Fisherman's Wharf) line which is much
    less crowded.  A ride at night is a real treat.
    
    Did I mention the Toronado??  :-)
    
    Jamie

    The Berkeley hill I was talking about that gives you a good
    view of the Bay is in Tilden Park.

    Here's another vote for the Palace of Fine Arts.. a place
    of unearthly beauty.

    As is the whole area...
    
    Tom