Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

>How often is our giving disproportionate to what we've been given?

	Which way?

			Alfred

    .1 Alfred,
    
    Either way.  And I'm not limiting this to monetary giving, either.
    To me, the giving of time, of talent, of affection, or of resources
    are all legitimate for us to consider.
    
    Richard
    

    I give what I can, when I can. I'm not a good one to judge if what
    I give is equal, less or greater in proportion to what I am given.
    I feel that I give a reasonable amount. More than many less than
    others. Work gets in the way of doing more sometimes. What I do know
    is that I feel no guilt about what I do give. That is to say that even
    do I'd like to do/give more I don't feel I'm cutting things short.

    			Alfred

	I used to be able to give more than I do now.

	I used to serve as a hospital chaplain about 18 hours per month.

	I used to serve as the president of the board of a local non-profit
	organization.

	I used to serve on multiple levels of the United Methodist church.

	I don't seem to be able to give as much of myself anymore.  I sort
	of miss that.

	Peace,
	Richard

    I often struggle with this.  I heard a comment by a lady on the radio
    once.  A guy asked about tithing.  Her opinion was that Jesus freed us
    from strict requirements, but opened us up to a new idea of freely
    giving.  Her implication was that if we have the love and compassion
    for others that Jesus did we would be giving more of ourselves, our
    time, our money.  And no she wasn't asking for donations.  ;^)
    
    I often think that I have much stuff that are luxuries that I don't
    need.  If I were to downscale and lead a much simpler life, I would be
    free to give much more money to organizations that go beyond where I
    can reach.
    
    As for time, I've served in church most of my life in many different
    capacities.  I still have gotten to do everything I believe I'm capable
    of doing, but it's because I'm trying to pull back and let God pick
    what positions He's capable of doing through me.  It's tough to do.  To
    be patient and just listen.  I still often feel like I should be doing
    something in the community, but I don't really know what.
    
    As for openness, I don't consider myself a really open person in
    general.  Unless I'm really upset, then I'll talk to nearly anyone
    because I use them as a sounding board.  It's cheaper than counseling.
    ;^)   But in close friendships I do open up much more.  I used to 
    be more trusting of others, I've closed up a little over the years.  
    I'm more cautious now.  That's good and bad.
    
    Jill

    I heard an interesting "twist" on the tithing approach.
    
    I asked my dad once if he gave the recommended 10% to the church. He
    said that if you count the government social programs into the
    equation, that he gave far more than 10% when all the taxes were
    counted. I know that some of us dislike the money we send to the
    military...but...I quess that it works both ways. I would much
    rather give money directly to the agencys without the government
    taking/making the choices.
    
    Marc H.

    I feel another reply is needed. I don't want to give the impression
    that I'm just a "money person"....i.e. give money and thats it.
    
    I feel that a very important part of life in general is volunter
    work. I volunter a lot of my time to the church and the community.
    
    Marc H.

 I believe the Bible gives a distinction between what we give in
 taxes vs what we give to God. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's
 and unto God what is God's".



 I give financially and with my time (recently more time than money) but
 I want to be in a position where I can give an equal balance of each.  God
 has, and continues to richly bless my life and I take great pleasure in 
 returning whatever portion of that that I can.




 Jim

    .8
    
    In the United States of America, who is Caesar?  And what exactly
    belongs to Caesar?
    
    Richard

    .6
    
    I had a United Methodist pastor once who said that the Old Testament
    says to give 10%, but the New Testament says to give 100%, and not
    just to the church.
    
    Richard
    

    .9
    
    Well, a fair amount of Nevada for starters... ;-)
    
    Daniel

    
.    In the United States of America, who is Caesar?  And what exactly
.    belongs to Caesar?
    
 

    Obviously we don't have emporers here in the USA.  But I believe the
 passage in Matthew is saying that what we give in taxes and what we give
 to God are distinct and separate.  

 As we who claim the name of Christ are called to obey the laws of the land,
 and as those laws call for a portion of our income to be taxed, then those
 taxes belong to the government.


 Jim

>    Obviously we don't have emperors here in the USA.  But I believe the
> passage in Matthew is saying that what we give in taxes and what we give
> to God are distinct and separate.  

    I would interpret that passage differently.  I believe that the passage
    is saying that *when and if* the two are separate, our response to them
    should be distinct as well, and that we should give appropriately to
    what each realm commands of us.  But to suggest that the two realms
    *never* intersect is not something that, I think, very many people really
    believe.  Any Christian who brings a moral consideration to bear on how
    they view a public issue, and who tries to influence public policy
    accordingly, is dealing with the intersection of God of Caesar as they
    see it.  We all know that public policy often has moral implications,
    and when that happens, God and Caesar are sharing the same realm.  The
    question is then what we do in those situations where the realm of
    Caesar and the realm of God do intersect.

    -- Mike

    I believe we are not subjects of an occupational government.  I believe
    that in a very real sense, we *are* Caesar.  I know *I* will not abdicate
    my own responsibility towards the governance of this country, a
    responsibility which, I might add, the people whom Jesus was addressing
    were not permitted.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

    Also see topic 478 "Render Unto Caesar"
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    
    I know for me there is a difference between my heart when I pay taxes
    and give my tithes and offerings.  I pay taxes grudgingly to a
    government whom I mistrust to do the right thing.  I give my tithes 
    and offerings willingly to a God I know can only do the right thing.  
    My church is only a tool of God's.  They have responsibility in doing 
    what God calls them to do with that money, I have found them to be 
    faithful.
    
    Jill

Yeah, I don't know of any church that might have black budgeted (secret, hidden)
projects.

I guess Jim Bakker's dog house might fit the classification of a "pork barrel"
item, though.

;-)
Richard

re: Last Couple

Just a nit, you're not giving your offerings to God, you are giving them to
people acting in his name, theoretically. Now, I am not in any way implying that 
your church misuses these funds, but history is full where money donated to the 
church was misused and abused. I put most televangelists in that category. 

A question I've wanted to ask of this group for a while is what do you think of
the Jim Bakker style of evangelism?


Steve                                                                                    

.18 Steve,

	I am repulsed by most televangelists.  I've been accused of being
too harsh on Pat Robertson in particular, even within these hallowed Notes.
You might wanna check out topic 101 "Christianity and television".

	I don't mind Robert Schuller near as much, and I actually like
Jerry Trigg, a local United Methodist preacher who appears on local TV
Sunday mornings.

Peace,
Richard