Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    RE: .0
    
    Sure have that right!!!
    
    Marc H.

Richard (with the melodic voice)  ;')

I believe that on some level the soul does choose many of those things 
(parents, etc) before incarnation.  To me it is the only thing that 
makes any sense of all this.

Ro

Richard,

I agree with the base note, but I don't understand how there could be a 
contrary view. Would you or someone else care to elaborate?

Steve

Note 689.2

>I believe that on some level the soul does choose many of those things 
>(parents, etc) before incarnation.  To me it is the only thing that 
>makes any sense of all this.

Ro,

	I do understand how some arrive at this.  It is a particularly
helpful concept when you're working through "stuff," the residue of childhood,
codependent and self-defeating behaviors, etc..  At the same time, I know that
some (meaning all too many) children are killed and others are permanently
injured at the hands of their parents.  I'm not talking about accidents,
which unfortuntely do happen.

	What I'm talking about is the concept of consciously selecting a
parent whom you know will kill you or torture you before you're even a year
old.  How would you explain this?  A poor crop of parents to choose from
that year?

Richard

    re: .0
    
    You're right, we don't choose these things. God chooses some of these
    things and some are the result of sin, yet God allows it.
    
    Scripture tells us that all things work for the good for those who love
    God. However our earthly good is not the supreme good and some things
    which are hardships in this life are the trials that are useful in
    the sanctification of our souls. 
    
    Throughout the Gospels, Jesus says that if we love Him then we will do
    the works that He does and we will obey the commandments, the first
    (but not only one) is the Great Commandment of Love. 
    
    Through acceptance of God (conversion through repentance of sin and
    acceptance of God) we choose God and His Lordship. The greatest gift
    that we then receive is the gifts of the Holy Spirit [wisdom,
    understanding, council, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the
    Lord]. 
    
    Through these gifts, and by our choice, we maintain ourselves in a 
    state of grace with God and the fruits of the Holy Spirit become
    manifest in our lives :  charity (love), joy, peace, patience, 
    kindness, goodness, long-suffering (forbearance), mildness (humility),
    faith, modesty (purity), continency, and chastity. 
    
    All of these qualities are blessings in this life, but essential for
    the life with God to come. These are all the qualities of Jesus Christ
    Himself and this is what it means to 'deny self' and 'put on Christ'.
    It is a daily battle.
    
    The child who is given everything by the parent tends to become spoiled
    and ungrateful. He grows up unable to recognize the pains and needs of
    others and is centered only on the self. 
    
    God allows those things that are profitable for us to bear, but we must
    seek out the blessings in each one by having trust in God's goodness
    and provisions and in His Way. 
    
    Peace,
    
    Mary
    

re Note 689.3 by TINCUP::BITTROLFF:

> I agree with the base note, but I don't understand how there could be a 
> contrary view. Would you or someone else care to elaborate?
  
        Well, not every topic has to be a cause for argument or even
        discussion of the topic per se.

        I view this topic as more of a place in which to share
        feelings and experiences.

        Also, here we can "wax philosophical".

        Bob

Note 689.3

>I agree with the base note, but I don't understand how there could be a 
>contrary view. Would you or someone else care to elaborate?

Steve,

	The main arguments against "chance" have to do with ideas about
predestination (Calvinism), pre-existence (associated with Eastern
thought), and the repercussions of free will.

	As Bob pointed out, I wasn't looking for debate so much as hopefully
igniting a sharing of personal perspectives and paradigms.

Richard

    
    Well.....I have a whole different view of this, and it has a basis
    in reincarnation.....and we all know what the "Christian Perspective"
    is on *that*! ;^)  So I don't think I'll expand on it here.....
    
    Carole

    
    	I didn't want to mention reincarnation, but since it has already
    	been brought up, I have to say that such is my view also, and in
    	that vein I as a soul chose (from what was available to choose from) 
	where to be born, what race and which parents to have.
    
    			Juan

Richard (.4)

<<some (meaning all too many) children are killed and others are permanently
<<injured at the hands of their parents.  I'm not talking about accidents,
<<which unfortuntely do happen.

Believe me Richard, I've seen this first hand.  It is devastating to know 
children/teenagers you love and care for have been physically, 
emotionally or even sexually abused.  The question of why would 
children choose to be brought up in a situation like that is one I've 
prayed and meditated with for a long time.

<<	What I'm talking about is the concept of consciously selecting a
<<parent whom you know will kill you or torture you before you're even a year
<<old.  How would you explain this?  A poor crop of parents to choose from
<<that year?

My heart tells me the only answer I can accept is that the soul is 
eternal and these brave couragous souls who choose  a 'parent' such as 
as this to learn/teach themselves and the world about unconditional
Love.  A perpetrator is a tortured soul crying out for love, most
likely a person who has suffered the same kind of abuse that they then
continue to pass on to innocent children.  It is a difficult balance
to see the perpetrator as a Child of God needing love and forgiveness
when the deep wounds of the victims continue to bleed through their
lives.  To stand with all the anger, fear and sense of injustice that
goes with seeing children that you love hurting.  To want to give them
an opportunity to have a wider perspective and understanding of the
abusive parent's own suffering and eventually to bring healing to that
relationship, yet to be aware and firm enough to keep them out of
harm's way and put their needs first.  There are no easy answers...the
only hope is to call on the Holy Spirit to bring all to God's Love. 

Ro

p.s. I might add that I too also believe in reincarnation.

Is reincarnation a Christian perspective?

    
    	RE.: .11
    
    	My understanding is that at one time, Reincarnation was in the
    	Bible and all the passages which mentioned it were removed by
    	the priesthood of the time.  You may accept or reject it as you
    	wish, I'm just telling what I have been able to find out, I have
    	no proof or references of what I just entered on this note.
    
    			Juan
    	

    RE:  .11 
    
    			I'd be very interested to know where you get the
    idea about reincarnation.  It might be a good topic for a different
    note specific to the subject.
    
    
    Dave

<Is reincarnation a Christian perspective?

For some Christians it is, there are Christian churches that hold 
reincarnation as a tenent.  For me, it exemplifies everything Jesus 
taught.  There is evidence (as pointed out in earlier notes on this 
subject, 16.7 for instance) that reincarnation was in fact a widely
held belief in early Christianity. 

Ro

    RE: .14
    
    Actually, reincarnation helps to explain, to me, a number of 
    contradictions about life. I.E. Why some people have "all the
    luck" while others have a very difficult life.
    
    I really don't know if I believe in it or not...but....the idea I
    have is that we keep coming back again and again, in different
    human bodies, until we lead a good Christian Life.
    
    Marc H.

I don't understand the argument that some children choose to be born into
abusive families etc.  Isn't that blaming the victim?

				-- Bob

    Ro,
    
    	So, does random chance, the "luck of the draw" fit anywhere in there?
    I know some people believe there is no such thing as chance, no such
    thing as coincidence.
    
    Richard
    

Bob,

<I don't understand the argument that some children choose to be born into
<abusive families etc.  Isn't that blaming the victim?

I hope my note didn't infer in any way that I 'blamed the victim'.  
I would not in any way negate the pain and suffering an abused child 
encounters...it is real, horrendous, and not 'deserved'.  But to 
believe that these experiences are allowed to happen to children by an
unmerciful God is something I can't fathom a Loving God would do.  
For me the idea that the soul chooses it for whatever reason, but 
mainly to learn and teach Unconditional Love at least makes sense of 
the seeming madness.  

Hey, Marc, thats kind of how I think it works too!!!  8^)

Ro

Richard (.17),

<    	So, does random chance, the "luck of the draw" fit anywhere in there?
<    I know some people believe there is no such thing as chance, no such
<    thing as coincidence.
    
Duh, I dunno know. %^} I just trust in God's Divine Plan and have 
faith that everything work out for the best.  Also I believe that 
Grace enters into this in some way.

But gee, I'm still trying to figure out why Carole and I didn't win at 
bingo last night so we could go back to England this July!!  ;')

Ro

    
    	Perhaps it may help clarify a bit if I mention that the Law of
    	Reincarnation and the Law of Karma are intricately connected
    	with each other.  Also, keep in mind that our earthly sojourns
    	are like a school curriculum, some subjects are mandatory and
    	some subjects are electives.  If a student who is enrolled in
    	a particular curriculum doesn't like any of the elective subjects 
    	he has to choose from and makes no selection, then the school 
    	administration will choose what they think it's best for him.
    	That's the way I understand it.
    
			    Juan

Re: .18 Ro

>But to 
>believe that these experiences are allowed to happen to children by an
>unmerciful God is something I can't fathom a Loving God would do.  

I can understand your dilemma.  Personally I solve it by assuming that God
doesn't exist, but I realize that not everyone will find that thought very
comforting.

				-- Bob

    How atheistic to denigrate the people who believe in God with abused
    children.

    The existence of abused children is not a non-existence proof of God.

    It is the existence proof that human nature is what it is, namely not
    full of love but selfish and uncaring.  It is by the grace of God that
    we are transformed into unselfish and caring people.

    Therefore, it is to anyone, Christian or not. to live lives of good
    example and show love to abused children and work with parents of
    abused children work on whatever is causing the abuse.

    Christ came not to abolish suffering but to make suffering itself part
    of the glory of God.

    .20
    
    Juan,
    
    	I know it works for you.  And, I promise to not try to change the
    beliefs of anyone who believes that life is a classroom (with a lot of
    lab thrown in).
    
    	I believe it is much more complicated, that there is an element of
    random chance, that to some difficult to measure degree we do reap what
    we sow, and that to another virtually unmeasureable degree our lives are
    the result of decisions we've made, consciously and unconsciously, along
    the way.
    
    	I also believe that decisions *others* have made along the way have
    an impact on our lives.  I also believe that a random mix of genetics
    have a bearing on our lives.
    
    	I could go on and on, but I think you get the drift.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

Re: .22 Patrick

>    How atheistic to denigrate the people who believe in God with abused
>    children.

Is "atheistic" intended as an insult?

I am not denigrating people who believe in God.  I'm simply stating one of
my reasons for not believing in God.

>    The existence of abused children is not a non-existence proof of God.

I think it comes close to being a non-existence proof of an all-powerful,
loving God.  If God is so loving and so powerful, why doesn't he intervene
to end the suffering of these children?  But that's just my own
perspective; I'm not trying to bash people who believe differently.

>    It is the existence proof that human nature is what it is, namely not
>    full of love but selfish and uncaring.  It is by the grace of God that
>    we are transformed into unselfish and caring people.

As unselfish, caring people I assume that we're expected to intervene when
we see a child suffering.  Why doesn't God set the example for us and do
likewise?

				-- Bob

>    	My understanding is that at one time, Reincarnation was in the
>    	Bible and all the passages which mentioned it were removed by
>    	the priesthood of the time.  You may accept or reject it as you
>    	wish, I'm just telling what I have been able to find out, I have
>    	no proof or references of what I just entered on this note.

If you have no proof or references, how did you find it out?

The Church has never been able to get its act together well enough to erase
all record of some version of the bible which would have contained what you
suggest.

Ro Reinke's claim that reincarnation was at one time a Christian teaching
or that Christian groups teach it today has no basis in fact.

/john

>loving God.  If God is so loving and so powerful, why doesn't he intervene
>to end the suffering of these children?  But that's just my own




  He did.  He sent His son, Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for the sin that
 causes these horrible things.  Unfortunately many reject that, but I'm not
 sure what more He can do, or should do.





 Jim

    Well... here I go again.  I believe that reincarnation is a carefully
    crafted lie by the Evil One (no, not Mike Valenza, but Satan...couldn't
    resist Mikey!)  ;^)
    
    I believe we are eternal beings.  But that's where reincarnation and my
    own beliefs part company.  I believe reincarnation is (gulp) the
    ultimate cop-out.  I mean I give God enough excuses sometimes in a day
    let alone my whole lifetime...I can't imagine how many I could give
    with multiple lifetimes.  What a depressing thought.  I think it's
    another way Satan gets people to think "Ah...don't worry about
    it...you've got tons of time."  Well, I believe time is ticking away
    and alot of people are going to come up surprisingly and sadly short.
    
    I think this idea of choice is another cop-out.  I think the emphasis
    is switched from the important things that we really do have a choice
    about (salvation through Jesus Christ, living a godly life, etc...) to
    those we don't (wondering why we and others chose the lives we did -
    the unending the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence
    scenario - woe is me).
    
    Well, that's my belief.  I could expand but I won't (aren't you lucky -
    you probably thought that was the expanded version).
    
    Jill

    It's obvious that the people surrounding Jesus possessed a paradigm
    about cause and effect.
    
    They'd ask Jesus about the one who was blind from birth; was it a
    result of some sin of his parents?
    
    As usual, Jesus' followers had it all screwed up.  Jesus answer was not
    what they expected.
    
    Peace,
    Richard

Re: .26 Jim


>  He did.  He sent His son, Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for the sin that
> causes these horrible things.

That's not much comfort to the children still being abused 2,000 years
later - they still suffer whether or not the penalty for sin has been paid.

>  Unfortunately many reject that, but I'm not
> sure what more He can do

He is all-powerful, right?  He could send his angels to free the children
from their oppressors.

>, or should do.

That's a more reasonable question, but to me, being a loving God means
intervening to prevent suffering.

				-- Bob

    RE: .22 Patrick

    I like your note.  What you say is actually very similar to what
    many others are saying here.

>    The existence of abused children is not a non-existence proof of God.

    I agree.  That's silly.  It may, however, be proof that God isn't
    what/who someone thinks S/He is.  But, what else is new?

>    It is the existence proof that human nature is what it is, namely not
>    full of love but selfish and uncaring.  

    Here I disagree, somewhat.  I believe that everyone *is* full of
    love and is unselfish.  What people call "sin" causes the separation
    from who we are to what we are.  And a living hell it is.
    
>    It is by the grace of God that
>    we are transformed into unselfish and caring people.

    Yes.  By the grace of God we can *drop* this sin.  Without faith
    in that grace, faith in forgiveness we can't drop it.  We carry
    it around, miserable.  This misery frequently begets yet more
    sin.  Faith in grace is the only way I know of to get off this
    wheel.

>    Therefore, it is to anyone, Christian or not. to live lives of good
>    example and show love to abused children and work with parents of
>    abused children work on whatever is causing the abuse.

    What?!  Love your neighbor?!  You mean you don't just *CALL* your-
    self a Christian?!?!?  :-)

    As I said, I like your note.

    Thank you.
    Tom

    Hi Bob,
    
    Why doesn't an all-powerful, loving God intervene?  Good question.  I
    think this is one of the biggest questions of our times.  Hmmm....well
    I'll give you my take on that.
    
    First, given God's unswerving nature, I believe he'd have to wipe out
    all evil and sin and not just child abusers...and basically everyone
    would be toast because I believe we are all evil by nature (sorry
    Patricia). God does not want to bring this judgement on people, He
    wants to give everybody a chance to be redeem through His Son Jesus. 
    That's why Jesus hasn't returned yet.
    
    Second, to God a 1000 years is like a day and a day like a 1000 years.
    We can't limit God by our concept of time...obviously if our whole life
    is like a blink of eye compared to all of eternity.  Our suffering in
    our minds is horrible and lingering, but in the face of eternity it's
    almost (well, to use your word) non-existent.
    
    Third, I believe God can give comfort to those who have to live through
    horrible circumstances.  He gives all who choose to believe access to
    His strength which could bear the sins of all mankind throughout all of
    time.  I think that's enough to get people through even if I can't
    always understand why they should have to go through it at all.
    
    Sorry...I seem to be in book-mode today.  I'll work on keeping my notes
    a little shorter.
    
    Jill

    I don't consider the theory of reincarnation any more evil than the
    theory of relativity.
    
    I think Satan is given far more credit (or scapegoating) by some
    than Satan deserves.
    
    But that's just me.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

Re: .31 Jill,

>    First, given God's unswerving nature, I believe he'd have to wipe out
>    all evil and sin and not just child abusers...and basically everyone
>    would be toast because I believe we are all evil by nature (sorry
>    Patricia).

I'm not saying that God should turn child abusers into toast; he should
just prevent them from abusing children.  Also, why does it have to be all
or nothing?

>    Second, to God a 1000 years is like a day and a day like a 1000 years.

OK, but that isn't much comfort to the children being abused.  If I saw
a child being kicked and beaten, and I decided to take my sweet time about
getting involved because *I* wasn't in much of a hurry, I'd be responsible
for contributing to unnecessary suffering.

>    Third, I believe God can give comfort to those who have to live through
>    horrible circumstances.

So by praying to God people can be given the strength to endure pain?
This might almost be a curse in some cases.  Rather than comforting people
I think it would be more loving for God to prevent the pain in the first
place.

>    Sorry...I seem to be in book-mode today.  I'll work on keeping my notes
>    a little shorter.
    
Are you kidding - spologizing for a 29 line note?!  I'll bet you'd have
really choked on some of the 290 line notes I used to write.

				-- Bob

    RE: .32
    
    Agreed Richard. I don't see the link between Satan and reincarnation at
    all.  I can see where a reincarnation theory, though, would explain
    many unanswered questions I and others have.
    
    Marc H.

re: .22


>    How atheistic to denigrate the people who believe in God with abused
>    children.

I don't believe I've ever seen atheistic used as an insult before. I kinda 
like it. But, where in this note did you see the denigration of a believer
via abused children?

>    The existence of abused children is not a non-existence proof of God.

Proving that something does not exist is impossible. However, I see this kind
of thing as just one (in a LONG list) of things that causes me to reject the
common notion of a kind and loving god.

>    It is the existence proof that human nature is what it is, namely not
>    full of love but selfish and uncaring.  It is by the grace of God that
>    we are transformed into unselfish and caring people.

I agree with the first sentence. However, I believe that I am unselfish and
caring and that it had nothing to do with grace.

>    Therefore, it is to anyone, Christian or not. to live lives of good
>    example and show love to abused children and work with parents of
>    abused children work on whatever is causing the abuse.

Finally, something we can completely agree on! :^)

Steve

    
    		What I have a hard time understanding is how can Christians
    say that we cannot understand God's will around this abuse stuff but
    cannot/willnot consider the possibility that God puts different beliefs
    systems for different people's pointing at the same God.  If we cannot
    truly understand God's will then why try to second guess people when
    they have a different belief?  Could it be that its just a different
    "aspect" of the same God?
    
    
    Dave

/john,

<<Ro Reinke's claim that reincarnation was at one time a Christian teaching
<<or that Christian groups teach it today has no basis in fact.

While in England, we attended a service at a Christian church that did 
in fact teach about reincarnation and I know there are Christian 
Spiritualist churches in this country who also teach that.  Please 
don't insinuate that what I wrote has no basis in fact, when I 
actually experienced it.  

I don't claim to be a historian /john, but I did give a pointer to a 
note that Karen Berggren entered by an author on the subject.  I 
recall that there are some notes in this file written a few years ago
by my husband who spent a good amount of time researching the
relationship between Christianity and reincarnation.  I belong to a 
Christian fellowship that accepts reincarnation as viable with Jesus's 
teachings.
  
Why is it any more of a miracle to be born twice than once?  And what 
is evil about it?!  Jill, my understanding is that reincarnation makes
people more accountable for their lives, not less.  I did a paper in 
college on the subject (got an A+ by the way) and the professor said I 
made a pretty convincing arguement for it, even though he didn't 
believe in it.  But I gave up years ago trying to push my beliefs onto 
anyone else.  

Ro

I read Karen Berggren's note (16.7), and don't consider it to provide
convincing evidence that reincarnation is compatible with Christianity.
I have never read anything in any of the writings of the Church fathers
that would support reincarnation, and I doubt you can provide a reliable
reference to an actual writing.

The fact that a church you have attended or a fellowship you belong to
teaches reincarnation does not make it a Christian teaching; there have
been groups teaching things contrary to Christ's teaching throughout the
history of Christianity.

/john

    
    	So you are the one who decides if it is a Christian teaching or
    not..right?
    
    
    Dave

    Dave,
    
    	Some defer final authority in many matters to the church (or
    tradition, if you prefer).
    
    Shalom,
    Richard

    re: .7.,38,etc.

    I think the issue here is again semantic.  Is Christianity whatever one
    says it is?  That's another topic.

    Is there a written record in history of a group of people calling
    themselves followers of Jesus Christ who teach (or taught) a belief in
    reincarnation?

    re: .36

    Jesus said he was the way, the truth, and the life.  Jesus taught that
    all reached the Father through him.  Other religions contain truth to
    the extent they are antecedent to, imitative of or derivative from
    Christianity.

 re: .41

>    I think the issue here is again semantic.  Is Christianity whatever one
>    says it is?  That's another topic.

I don't think so, but it is certainly more than what the orthodox say it is.

>    Is there a written record in history of a group of people calling
>    themselves followers of Jesus Christ who teach (or taught) a belief in
>    reincarnation?

Try the Gnostics.  A belief in reincarnation could be reasonably assumed from
their writings.

>    Jesus said he was the way, the truth, and the life.  Jesus taught that
>    all reached the Father through him.  Other religions contain truth to
>    the extent they are antecedent to, imitative of or derivative from
>    Christianity.

Truth and morality seem to be human overlays on Nature.  In truth, there really
is no meaning to life other than what we give it :-)

    There is no single Gnostic creed or group.
    
    Which historical Gnostic group held belief simultaneously in what Jesus
    taught and in reincarnation?

    Can I get something straight here before we continue?

    The beliefs of reincarnation and "one life to make or break",
    although not identical, imho, are not hostile to one another.

    They both have the central theme of "If I screw up this time
    I'll have to do something about it later."  You may come back
    in a more disadvantaged position or you may go to pergatory
    for a good long time.  If you think about it, there's not a
    lot of difference between these two outcomes.

    They can peacefully coexist.

    Tom

re: .44

How about my belief, that when I die, I'm gone, body, soul and spirit?

In this view, if I screw up this time, I've screwed up for eternity, so I'd 
better get it right NOW! :^()

Steve

re .43

>   There is no single Gnostic creed or group.
    
Why is that important?  The orthodox don't seem to agree on much themselves.

>    Which historical Gnostic group held belief simultaneously in what Jesus
>    taught and in reincarnation?

None that I know of.  However, I have read many purported teachings of Jesus in
the gnostic gospels that didn't get included in the orthodox scriptures.

/Mike

/Mike,

Are the Essenes considered Gnostics or are they a sect of their own?

Ro

re .47

>Are the Essenes considered Gnostics or are they a sect of their own?

As far as I know, they are considered a Jewish sect, not Christian.  I have read
that the Gnostics were connected to the Essenes, but I think that the connection
is rather tenuous.

>Ro
/Mike

    It's important to point out that there is no single Gnostic creed or
    group because when someone writes "Try the Gnostics" (689.42), as one
    would concluded that there is an indentifiable creed or group to "try".
    
    You concede there isn't.  You don't refer to any specific writings of
    the Gnostics on reincarnation.

Lemme throw myself out as an example here.

As many of you know, I'm a quadriplegic.  That's "crippled" for those of you
whose style prohibits tact or "euphemisms".  It means my extremities, both
arms and both legs, are practically useless.

I have not walked since before the 3rd grade.  I require help to do practically
every "normal" function in my life.  The minuscule, for me, is monumental.
I can't drive.  I can't get myself dressed.  I can't even get on to a toilet
by myself.

I practically ruined the backs of both of my parents because of their lifting
me around as a child.

I can't believe that I would be so *stupid* as to have deliberately chosen
these circumstances.  I can accept that I was dealt a bad hand; that my
condition is nobody's fault - not even God's.

Believe me, there's *nothing* to be learned from the bulk of my experience
as a quadriplegic, except that life is hard and then you die -- and I'll bet
everybody here already knew that.

Richard

PS Spare me the "perfect bodies in Heaven" speech.  I've heard it so many times
I could recite it by rote.

re .49

>    It's important to point out that there is no single Gnostic creed or
>    group because when someone writes "Try the Gnostics" (689.42), as one
>    would concluded that there is an indentifiable creed or group to "try".
    
Good point.  In my studies of the gnostic gospels, years ago, I saw many passages
which, to me, indicated a belief in reincarnation.  However, I could not give
you a specific reference at this time, as I have since given away all my books
on this subject.  There are many books on the Gnostics - the one by Elaine Pagels
was a good one - that you could refer to if you are interested in pursuing this.
Next time I spend some time at the library, I'll do some research.

>    You concede there isn't.  You don't refer to any specific writings of
>    the Gnostics on reincarnation.

Not really.  I said 'None that I know of'.  That doesn't mean that there weren't
any.  


/Mike

    Richard,

    Re .50

    I agree with you.  It sucks.

    I don't think there is any pure answer on this level.  Regardless of
    whether it's random, God-ordained, or self-chosen we have to play the
    hand we're dealt.

    I do believe in Love and I do receive Love from you.  So I'm selfish.
    *I'm* glad you're here even though you live in a body that has betrayed
    you.  

    Thank you for "inter-being" with me.  Thank you for sending me a card
    that lifted my spirits when I was having a hard week.  Thank you for
    bringing me magazines and books and taking me to that really cool
    Quaker meeting.  Thank you for chasing my little daughter around so I
    could participate in that meeting.  Thank you for adding a sweet spirit
    to this notes conference.

    Thank you for being an unwilling hero by playing the hand you were
    dealt.

    Ruth

    
    		I would like to echo what Ruth said.  Richard has, for the
    few years I've known him, been a special blessing in my life.  I doubt 
    that his infirmaties has given him any special love and yet we are a
    product (to a great extent) of our circumstances.  Thank you Richard!
    
    
    Dave

    RE: Last couple
    
    My thoughts too. I hope to meet you, Richard, some day in person.
    If anyone can relate to this subject, it has to be you.
    
    I will not give you speechs and lofty statements about a better life
    ahead....just, thank you.
    
    Marc H.

Richard (.50),

<<I can't believe that I would be so *stupid* as to have deliberately chosen
<<these circumstances.  I can accept that I was dealt a bad hand; that my
<<condition is nobody's fault - not even God's.

Richard, to me if there was a choice by your soul to do this, it 
certainly wasn't *stupid* although it must feel that way.  To me it 
would take a courageous unselfish loving entity to want to take on such an 
experience...it would appear that the soul would gain nothing for 
itself.

<<Believe me, there's *nothing* to be learned from the bulk of my experience
<<as a quadriplegic, except that life is hard and then you die -- and I'll bet
<<everybody here already knew that.

But everyone you have touched in your life has learned from you, 
whether on a conscious level or not.  Your presence here has taught 
me much about perserverance, faith, and Love.  Richard, you could have 
become bitter, mean, and cruel, but you didn't.  My cousin, who was 
like a sibling to me growing up, has C P.  He has grown into a bitter, 
hateful, selfish person or it feels that way to me.  Funny as a 
child, I always envied his life, felt he was happier and had a more 
priviliged life than I did despite his handicap.  When we became
adults I found out he resented my and my sister's presence in his life
during childhood; he didn't like sharing his father's attention with
us (we grew up without a father).  I always felt I was there for my
cousin whenever he needed me and that it would be reciprocated.  I was
wrong.  

Please keep being the wonderful Light that you are, it does make a 
difference whether you are aware of it or not.

Love,

Ro

    
    	Richard,
    
    		I never would had known that you had to live under such
    	harsh circumstances, and that goes to prove that you are dealing
    	with your circumstances with the right frame of mind.  You are
    	doing a great job, and we can all learn something from you. My 
    	only advise to you is to keep up the good work you are doing and 
    	if you get discouraged I hope it's only temporary and you will go
    	back to your real cheerful self again.
    
			   Juan

re: .55

Does that mean your cousin's soul *chose* his infirmity, and did not learn?

Steve

Gosh, I may have sabotaged my own note!

I'm very touched by the outpouring of affection.  In fact, I'm pretty choked up
by all that's been said to me in reply to .50.

I hadn't anticipated it.  Thank you.

Richard

    You're surprised, Richard? 8-)
    
    Your note really and truly choked me up, Richard -- it reminds me of a
    peice of wisdom left to me by a Hebrew school teacher:
    
    "I wept because I had no shoes, until I met a man who had no feet."
    
    Your courage and depth of soul *is* inspirational
    
    regards and deep respect,
    
    daniel

Steve (.57),

<<Does that mean your cousin's soul *chose* his infirmity, and did not learn?

I don't think anyone can judge another, where they're at, did they 
learn what they came to learn.  Albiet, my ego trys to, but in my
heart I know I haven't lived his life, I haven't walked in his shoes
and I have no way of knowing what his lessons are and if he learned
them.   Outward appearances indicate that he is bitter and angry, but
that is my ego's perpespective.  The Holy Spirit would say his 
behavior is a cry for Love.

Ro

    >  "I wept because I had no shoes, until I met a man who had no feet."
    
    You gotta love a Hebrew school teacher who quotes the Koran.
    
    :-)
    
    Richard
    

	I've been trying to override my internal auto-response system and
for once *not* say anything about not desiring anybody's pity or anybody's
"there, but for the grace of God, go I" thinking.

	As you can see, I'm not having a great deal of success.

	The truth is that I have to deal with some very real obstacles and
limitations in my life -- but who doesn't?  I know ambulatory people who are
immobilized more by their internal obstacles and limitations than I am.

	The inspiration for this string was James Brady, the man who was
shot in the head by the would-be assassin of former President Reagan.  It
was Brady who said in a recent TV interview, "You've got to play the
hand you're dealt."  Brady has never thrown in his hand, no matter how bad
the cards looked.

Peace,
Richard

    Jumping briefly out of read-only mode, I offer my dos centavos worth.

    I agree with those who feel that human suffering is not consistent with
    the existence of a God who is both loving an omnipotent.  Some people
    have concluded from this belief that God must therefore not exist.  I
    came to a different conclusion, namely that God's attributes include
    love but not omnipotence.  When I realized that omnipotence is not
    necessary to the idea of God, it was like a bolt of lightning--and the
    problem of evil and suffering in the world, which had been such an
    important component of my earlier atheism, disappeared for me.  This is
    the only way that I can accept the idea that God exists.  I realize
    that not everyone agrees with this point of view, but this is where I
    am coming from.

    I'll add that this is, as far as I can tell, Harold Kushner's
    conclusion as well, as expressed in his books "Who Is God" and "Why Bad
    Things Happen to Good People", although perhaps others who have read
    these books have come to different conclusions about Kushner's views
    than I have.  I will also add that process theology, which I have found
    to be a very interesting approach to theism, also does not believe in
    divine omnipotence.  You don't *have* to believe that if God exists
    then he/she is necessarily omnipotent.

    On the other hand, I know of others who have resolved this problem in
    the opposite way, by concluding that God is omnipotent, but is somewhat
    indifferent to the world.   But I choose to believe that God exists,
    and that God is loving; it is omnipotence that I rule out of the
    picture.  It isn't just the problem of evil that has led me to view God
    in this way; it is also my belief that process theology, with its view
    of creation as on ongoing process in a world of continuing activity,
    most closely parallels the world as I understand it.  But the problem
    of evil and suffering definitely plays a role in my beliefs as well.

    I can't say that I personally believe in reincarnation either, or for
    that matter any sort of afterlife, although I am willing to entertain
    the possibility of either of these things.

    As far as how this relates to the original question that Richard posed,
    as I see it, we may have no choice about the hand we are dealt, but we
    do have a choice in how we play with the cards we have.  Taking the
    playing card metaphor further, consider the skillful blackjack player,
    for example, who has no choice about the hand she or he is dealt, but
    who knows when to play those hands: when to hit and when to stand, when
    to double down and when not to, when to split a pair and when not to,
    when to surrender and when not to.  The good player doesn't split a
    pair of tens, but they do split a pair of eights--and so forth.  On an
    individual hand, you can't control whether you get good cards or bad
    cards, and you can't guarantee that you will win that hand, but what
    you can do is maximize your odds of winning in an individual case by
    playing your cards right.  Successful gamblers who can use the odds in
    their favor know that the random events form a larger pattern, and that
    while you can't predict the outcome of a single bet, you can predict
    better results in the long run if you know what you are doing.

    The difference between playing you cards right and playing them wrong
    is not that it will determine the outcome that one time, but it will
    determine the long term outcome, as you continue to play over time. 
    This result means that while the outcomes of individual hands can't be
    predicted, the thousands of random situations can add up to a
    meaningful statistical result that depends on how you play in those
    individual situations.

    My point is that life deals us lots of hands, and we can cope with or
    respond to them in different ways that can affect the courses of our
    lives.  We are not *always* powerless in the face of life's random
    blows, and to a certain extent I think that we can have an affect on
    our success in the long run.  The only qualification I would make is
    that this analogy with cards falls apart to the extent that some of the
    cards we are dealt by life obviously have much greater significance
    than others.  Being born to abusive parents, being thrown into a
    concentration camp, or having a deadly automobile accident, could be a
    fatal hand that eliminates "the long run" even from consideration. 
    Life's shortness and the fragility of our existence means that "the
    long run" is not always a factor that we can count on to average out
    the results in our favor.

    But if we take the less severe examples out of the picture, I do think
    that we can, in the long run, have the power to make or break our
    lives.  When people exhibit patterns of failure over time, it may be
    that they are doing something in their lives that lead this to happen;
    it may be inadvertent, but it is still something that they are doing. 
    A continuous pattern of being unable to keep jobs or hold onto
    relationships, for example, may be a symptom of the way people are
    dealing with the hands that life deals them.   An individual job loss
    or failed relationship may just be bad luck, just as a bad deal in
    blackjack is just bad luck; but a long pattern indicates that "the long
    run" may be involved here, and like the blackjack player who foolishly
    splits their tens, in the long run their poor decisions start to mount
    up.  Perhaps it was something in their upbringing that led them to deal
    with life in self-defeating ways, in which case we can sympathize with
    their plight.  But whatever the cause, I think that this is something
    that cannot be disregarded.  To a certain extent we can make or break
    our own successes in life.

    So, what I am saying is that I think that there is both luck and choice
    involved in the ways that our lives turn out.  I do recognize that some
    kinds of bad luck that we have no choice about are so serious or even
    fatal that there is nothing that we can do.  Those situations are
    tragic, they are terrible, and they are unfortunate; I don't think that
    every bad thing that happens to people is due to their choice.  But the
    smaller hands that life deals us we do have the ability to respond to
    in meaningful ways.  Those of us who are fortunate to experience a long
    life will have an long series of hands dealt to us, and how we cope
    with them can help determine a pattern of success or failure.

    -- Mike

    Sorry to break the mood.  I just thought this was humorous and didn't
    know if anyone else caught this...now I have seen everything!  We
    actually have seen now in CP that Satan is obviously the victim or
    scapegoat of the conservative Christian belief system.  Poor guy.  How
    on earth is he coping with this!  I mean to be held accountable for
    every evil in this world by some holier than thou do gooders.  The
    nerve of them.   Give the guy a break.  He's just a fallen angel.  He
    doesn't deserve the plight he's been given.  He just made a mistake,
    he's no different from the rest of us.  Lighten up already!  NOT!
    
    Bob, you asked why does it have to be all or nothing?  Well, He could
    be somewhere in the middle if the abuser chose to turn away from the
    abuse. If the abuser didn't, I believe it would be all or nothing.  I
    feel God is already giving them the opportunity to turn away from the
    abuse...each person has a conscience instilled in them.  They are
    choosing to ignore it.
    
    The last part of your note deals with why does God allow pain?  Perhaps
    it's because pain helps us find the end of our own strength and to seek
    God.   I have a friend who lived through abuse and even now as an adult
    is coping with what effects that has had on her and now her children.
    However, she is seeking for how God can use that to help others.  Pain
    teaches us to feel empathy...to actually understand and assist others
    when they go through pain.  But why have any pain at all you say? 
    Mankind chose pain because of sin.  We've deteriorated to the point
    that even the innocents are affected because of the sins of their
    parents.  We talk about ongoing cycles of abuse.  We're actually to the
    point where we are raising abusers.  We're training them to be that
    way.  We're to blame, not God.  I believe He weeps to see such pain.  I
    know some people get bothered when others quote Scripture, but... II
    Peter 3:9 says "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some
    understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to
    perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
    
    Another example of someone who lives and has grown through pain is Joni
    Tada Erickson.  Like Richard she is a quadriplegic.  Through God's
    strength she's learned to praise Him for her body.  Without it she
    believes she would never have had the opportunity to impact the lives
    of people all around the world.  She's a remarkable lady.  Her biggest
    human handicap has been turned into her greatest spiritual asset. We,
    especially in America, are so self-reliant.  I'm having a really tough
    week and my friend that I mentioned earlier said that I'm managing
    things so completely that I'm not allowing God to heal the hurts the
    way they need to be healed.  She's right.  I need to learn to rely on
    God more fully.  Pain teaches us to do that.  All through my school
    years I learned that it was man's nature to learn from our mistakes. 
    Mistakes can be painful.  I experience pain because I don't trust God
    as I should.  When my faith is strong, I may go through tough times,
    but there's a peace there that's not otherwise there. I need to get to
    a place where that's the default state in my life. I'm not there yet. 
    But God has been patient and He's working on bringing me there.
    
    Jill

    Is it Satan or people who are destroying lives in Serbia?
    
    Is it Satan or people who have shot children in Northern Ireland?
    
    Is it Satan or people who are dumping toxic waste in Matamoros, waste
    that would not be allowed under government restrictions in the United
    States?
    
    Was it Satan or people who dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and
    Nagasaki?
    
    Richard
    

    This may be another string, but:
    
    I'm really curious, could someone explain to me where the traditional
    Christian concept of Satan comes from?
    
    regards,
    
    Daniel

    .67 Yeah, let's start another string.
    
    Richard
    

re Note 689.63 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE:

> 	The inspiration for this string was James Brady, the man who was
> shot in the head by the would-be assassin of former President Reagan.  It
> was Brady who said in a recent TV interview, "You've got to play the
> hand you're dealt."  Brady has never thrown in his hand, no matter how bad
> the cards looked.
  
        This is some encouragement to me at a time that feels rather
        dark.

        I am quite certain I am being "groomed" for termination from
        Digital, in part due to what I feel is an irrationally poor
        review.  I suspect that there may be an ulterior rationale.

        Please, I need your prayers.  I need encouragement -- this
        feels so strange and alien to me.

        And, of course, I could use practical advice.

        I don't know whether to fight, or whether it is truly a
        blessing in disguise to leave this madhouse.

        Thanks,
        Bob

    RE.66
    
    Leaving the Atomic Bomb out ( I feel it saved many more lives than
    it killed).....People, not Satan are doing the deeds.
    
    Satan's helping them come to their decisions, though.
    
    Marc H.

    
    Bob, I will hold you in my prayers that all will turn out well
    for you.
    
    Carole

    re:              <<< Note 689.24 by GRIM::MESSENGER "Bob Messenger" >>>
    
    
>I think it comes close to being a non-existence proof of an all-powerful,
>loving God.  If God is so loving and so powerful, why doesn't he intervene
>to end the suffering of these children?  But that's just my own
>perspective; I'm not trying to bash people who believe differently.
    
    In C.S. Lewis' The Problem of Pain he makes the point that if God
    intervened everytime someone tried to shoot someone else, the shooter
    wouldn't really be free.  By definition the idea of free will involves
    being able to make a choice bewteen options. If God had to intervene to
    keep the gun from firing or to make the bullet fall to the ground,
    presumably then he'd have to intervene to stop us thinking bad thoughts
    and making bad choices as well, all out of love.
    
    Another clue might be that God's love is different from ours.  Anyone
    who can say "If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out" has a very
    different perspective than I do on the relative importance of sinning
    vs having a whole body.  Even if you don't take it literally. 8-)  Any
    good parent knows of times where their love led them to an action that
    made their kids miserable, and yet was still best for their kids. The
    existence of miserable kids does not disprove the existence of loving
    parents.
    
                                                    
    Paul
    

I read _Joni_ several years ago.  It was recommended to me by someone who
was "inspired" by her story.

Yes, her obvious love for the Lord clearly came through, but frankly, I
found the book depressing.  But then, I'm no inspiration.

Richard

    .70  I think that's what Truman thought, too.
    
    Richard
    

    Bob - 
    
    Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.
    
    Nanci

    Bob,
    
    		No magic words...I wish there was some.  My thoughts and 
    prayers are with you.  Take care.
    
    Dave

    
    Hmmm...I've never read her book Richard.  I've only seen the movie
    about her life, heard her music, seen her paintings, and heard her
    speak on the radio.  I found absolutely nothing depressing about
    her.  But everyone's experiences are different.  Her paintings are
    beautiful.  It's amazing to me.  I can't paint with any skill 
    holding a paintbrush in my hand, she holds the paintbrush in her
    teeth and they paintings are lovely.  Maybe I'm using the wrong
    technique.  I wonder if I could paint holding a paintbrush in my
    teeth....nah, I doubt that I'd have the patience.
    
    Jill

    
    
    	A very good point has been brought up here by some when they argued 
    	that God has chosen not to interfere because then our free will would 
    	have been taken away.  However, if that is true then why is it that 
    	sometimes it appears that God does intervene as when a person has been 
    	miraculously saved from a disaster or from the jaws of death by an 
    	angelic host.
    
    	I'm sure some have read many such stories where the person saved has 
    	told the story where an angel provided food or safety from an inminent 
    	danger.  On the other hand there have also been many stories where 
    	another person has had a sudden change of plans and rushed to the site 
    	of an upcoming disaster only to die with thousands others.
    
    	It's this kind of inconsistency that makes such reasoning flawed. 
	These inconsistencies can be easily explained by the Law of Karma,
    	but we are not talking about that right now, I'm more interested on
    	how other theories reconcile these inconsistencies.
    
			Juan   

re .78

>    	It's this kind of inconsistency that makes such reasoning flawed. 
>	These inconsistencies can be easily explained by the Law of Karma,
>    	but we are not talking about that right now, I'm more interested on
>    	how other theories reconcile these inconsistencies.
 

The theory of evolution has no trouble reconciling the inconsistencies.

/Mike

    .64  Thanks for that, Mike.
    
    Richard
    

Re: .65  Jill

>    Bob, you asked why does it have to be all or nothing?  Well, He could
>    be somewhere in the middle if the abuser chose to turn away from the
>    abuse. If the abuser didn't, I believe it would be all or nothing. I
>    feel God is already giving them the opportunity to turn away from the
>    abuse...each person has a conscience instilled in them.  They are
>    choosing to ignore it.
    
Jill, you're talking in terms of God punishing the perpetrator, but what
about helping the victim by preventing the abuse?  In the case of a child
being severely beaten God could just transport the child to a safer place,
say.  There is no need for God to go on to say "well, the whole world is
pretty corrupt so I think it's time for Armageddon."

>    The last part of your note deals with why does God allow pain?  Perhaps
>    it's because pain helps us find the end of our own strength and to seek
>    God.

Is it possible for people to seek God without being abused, murdered, born
handicapped etc?

Re: .72 Paul

>    In C.S. Lewis' The Problem of Pain he makes the point that if God
>    intervened everytime someone tried to shoot someone else, the shooter
>    wouldn't really be free.

But the shooter *shouldn't* be free to shoot people.  As the saying goes:
your right to swing your arms ends at my face.

>  By definition the idea of free will involves being able to make a choice
> bewteen options.

If God were loving and all-powerful, he could give us choices that didn't
involve hurting other people.

> If God had to intervene to
>    keep the gun from firing or to make the bullet fall to the ground,
>    presumably then he'd have to intervene to stop us thinking bad thoughts
>    and making bad choices as well, all out of love.
    
Only if those choices hurt other people.

>    Another clue might be that God's love is different from ours.

OK, but in that case I wouldn't call it "love".

>    Any
>    good parent knows of times where their love led them to an action that
>    made their kids miserable, and yet was still best for their kids.

Is it really best for people to be murdered, raped and otherwise abused,
for people to be born handicapped, etc?

				-- Bob

>>  He did.  He sent His son, Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for the sin that
>> causes these horrible things.

>That's not much comfort to the children still being abused 2,000 years
>later - they still suffer whether or not the penalty for sin has been paid.

On the contrary, Bob, it's very comforting.


Sandy

    Bob, thank you for engaging my mind on an otherwise unengaging day.
    
    Why doesn't God rescue the victims in some supernatural feat?  I don't
    know, but perhaps you've been watching too many Star Trek reruns. ;^) I
    don't know why God isn't a "beam me up God".  I'm not sure I'd like it
    either.  Maybe it's because He wants the rest of humanity to intervene
    and stop it.  He's equipped us to do that!  But how many times have you
    heard of neighbors who just didn't want to get involved or stupid abuse
    laws that handed kids right back to their abusive parents. The answer
    is in us.  We could solve this problem but we don't.  That should tell
    you more about the nature of mankind than about the non-existence of an
    all-powerful and loving God.  Maybe someday we'll stand before Him and
    He'll ask us "Why didn't you stop the abuse that you saw?"
    
    Jill

    My rabbi offered an interesting parable a few Yom Kippur's ago:
    
    A very devout man lived alone in his town.  He had many friends and
    neighbors and attended synnagogue regularly -- he gave charity
    willingly, lived his life by the Law and did many mitzvot to help his
    friends, family and neighbors.  In a word, he was a "mensch."
    
    One day, the river near his home was flooded by heavy rains.  It got so
    bad that the local officials mentioned that they might have to evacuate
    the area (this is a modern parable, you see  8-> ).  When his neighbors
    mentioned this to him, the man said simply, "I have lived my life with
    the Law...God will provide."
    
    Later that day, the floods were still rising and the official
    evacuation order came over the radio, but still the man refused to
    leave his house.  When his neighbors came by to offer to move some of
    his possessions with their truck and take him to safety, he told them
    to go ahead.  He would stay at home and God would provide.
    
    Still later, his first floor flooded and he had to go upstairs.  Once
    again, his neighbors came by, this time in a row boat, and offered to
    take him to safety if he'd climb in from the window, but once again, he
    said that he preferred to stay.
    
    The rains picked up and the flood waters finally drove him to the roof
    of his house where a police helicopter, surveying the flood area, threw
    down a rope ladder to help him but he waved them off.  Finally, a tree,
    uprooted by the river, smashed into the house, and he was drowned.
    
    The man woke up in heaven and was simply *furious*  He demanded to see
    God immediately and when he did he demanded an explanation "All my life
    I've lived by the Law, I've helped my neighbors, I've lived as good a
    life as I could and in my hour of need, you didn't help me???"
    
    And God replied "Stupid!  What did you think the radio, the truck, the
    boat and the helicopter were?????"
    
    Okay, okay, on a more serious note...
    
    I don't know why bad things happen to good people.  I wish I could
    explain child abuse in a spiritual context.  I can't.  It's hard to
    think about in that way because it happened to me.  I was eight years
    old and at summer camp and one of my counselors pinned me against a
    wall and molested me.
    
    I lived with that for nearly 14 years before regaining solid memories
    of the experience.  I was terrified when it happened.  My family always
    had this "perfect nuclear family" image and it was true: we're quirky
    but we love each other and are supportive in many, many ways.  So when
    I had this terrible secret, I couldn't dare tell anyone...the eight
    year-old was scared to death his parents would hate him for bursting
    the bubble.  Eventually, the kept secret became a secret I kept for
    myself.  Until two years ago, I couldn't even remember mylife prior to
    the age of ten.  And it took someone trying to rape me as an adult to
    stir that lose.
    
    I've made a lot of headway...discovered a lot more of my past, good and
    bad alike and explained and identified a lot of my more
    self-destructive behavior. Knowing where it is and how it arose makes
    it easier to stop and control.  From self destructive, co-dependent,
    plagued by clinical mood swings, addictive compulsive behaviors, and
    constant nightmares, I've become a reasonably stable, controlled and
    even relatively happy person...it's been a long journey.
    
    Did it happen for a reason?  I can't believe that.  Another five
    minutes difference in chaging from swimming lessons and it might have
    been another kid.  Am I stronger now that I've worked it out in a major
    way? Yes, but in all honesty I would have preffered that it never
    happened at all.
    
    Okay, so that was kind of a "no, duh."
    
    When I was in graduate school for creative writing last year, I was in
    a poetry workshop where we read a lot of Jung and basically saw what it
    did to our work: the images nad voices of the unconscious. (boy, did
    *I* eveer have material)  My final project was an 8 part poem drawn
    from my dreams, real experiences and some allegorical stories.  AS it
    was workshopped, our professor had what seemed to me an odd comment. 
    She said that it was interesting from a Jungian perspective that the
    "I" of the poem seemed to have no "integration" of the nightmares and
    trauma into its psyche...that the poem seemed to say that some
    experiences are just, plain awful and all you can do is learn to live
    with them even in spite of them and hopefully still find a way to be
    happy and balanced.  That some experiences offer nothing of real value
    except the strength in living despite of them.
    
    Yes, that *was* the point....
    
    I haven't talked about this in months actually....if I suddenly end up
    deleting this note, please don't be upset!  I have an on-line copy of
    the poem too, if anyone's curious...
    
    There are too many hurt children out there, and Jill's right -- too
    damn few adults willing to do anything about it.
    
    Regards,
    
    Daniel
          

Daniel,

I have been meaning to give you the following piece of advice before
you leave for Hawaii, and now seems the time to do it.  This is quite
possibly one of the best pieces of advice anyone will ever give you.

You say that you are bisexual.  I say "hogwash".  I think that it is
no more right for you to think that you are bisexual than it is right
for you to think that you had to keep that secret about being raped
when you were eight years old.  I think that the reason you think
you're bisexual is to help you think that that rape was not quite as
bad, as horrible, as cruel, and as wrong as it really was.

Now that you have decided that you can face that rape, face it completely.
It was wrong, and you don't have to pretend that it or any other homosexual
experiences you ever had were right.

There are lots of beautiful women in Hawaii.  Get married, live long, and
maz'l tov.

/john

Re: .84

Thanks for sharing that, Daniel.  It takes courage to be open like that
about very personal details of one's past.  I forget sometimes how lucky I
am to have had a normal, happy childhood.

Jill: I agree that each of us has a responsibility to help our fellow
man/woman, and to prevent the suffering of others.

				-- Bob

re Note 689.81 by GRIM::MESSENGER:

> >  By definition the idea of free will involves being able to make a choice
> > bewteen options.
> 
> If God were loving and all-powerful, he could give us choices that didn't
> involve hurting other people.

        Bob,

        I know that this is no answer, but you have postulated a
        different world than the one that exists.  It is easy to
        suggest that God could have done it differently, but how do
        we know that there isn't some "cosmic logic" that makes such
        a world an impossibility?

        Bob

    This is a profound question to which I have given much thought, without
    any easy answers.  Maybe no answers at all, except God instills us with
    free will, and that we can let the evil impulse run us.
    
    I suffered from adolescence to age 30 with an emotional depression that
    warped my life.  I finally overcame it.  What did I learn from it?  I
    have to agree with Richard and Daniel.  The suffering in itself doesn't
    add anything positive.  It was certainly not ennobling, to borrow a
    romantic notion.  Actually, it was quite degrading.
    
    I learned to be compassionate because any stranger's life may be full
    of suffering we can hardly imagine, no matter how glossy the shell.
    
    I learned to work with and overcome my emotional and mental limitations.
    I learned self-control.  I learned how to release.  I gained balance.
    
    I learned how to rescue joy despite suffering, and to do it again and
    again.
    
    I learned that God responds to heart-felt prayer, and that the effects
    are subtle, not obvious.  God provided the support, but I had to do all
    the work.  Maybe God untied the knots for me when I wasn't looking. 
    ;-)
    
    Overall, I'd say that my depression (actually just a catch word for a
    whole constellation of thoughts and feelings) strongly influenced and
    molded my life.  I have no idea what my life story would be without the
    depression.  The lessons I learned were gained in opposition to the
    depression.  Overcoming it and constantly keeping it at bay (especially
    during bad times) has taught me a lot.
    
    If I could stand like the fairies at Sleeping Beauty's cradle and
    prevent the depression (given my birth and life to relive), I would. 
    But as the base note title says, "Play the hand you are dealt."  Or
    in golf talk, "Play it as it lays."  
    
    My own personal suffering strengthened my belief in God.  When I began
    the process of healing, I prayed "as if" there were a God, without a
    genuine sense of belief.  Later I believed in spite of my experience,
    almost defiantly.  To some degree this is still true.  At blessed
    moments of peacefulness, I believe with a sense of gratitude and
    happiness.
    
    How can we believe in God given the many holocausts we have witnessed
    or experienced, and the ongoing depravity, sadism, and misery of which
    we know all too well?  I can't answer this rhetorical question.  We may
    fruitfully engage our lives in this question.
    
    Laura

    re .83

    >> The answer is in us.  We could solve this problem but we don't.

    Jill.  I sure agree with this one.  I think that regardless of what our
    "higher ideals" are, the basic idea is that Christianity is an *applied
    religion.*  When I was a kid there was a woman in my church who did
    much to help others.  She called this "putting legs on her prayers."

    I really appreciate the open sharing that is taking place in this
    note (and in this entire conference).  We all have stuff to work out.

    It helps me when I read about someone else's experiences and know that
    *I am not alone.*

    Hugs to all,

    Ruth

    .85
    
    Hi John,
    
    Thanks for the advice, concern and "gut mazel"! 8-)
    
    I'll be honest with you: that's a question that spent a *lot* of time
    in therapy being raked over the coals, and I just can't agree that I
    "chose" to call myself bisexual to deal with the rape.  If anything,
    considering the attempted rape when I was 20 was from a 50 year-old man
    and I was molested as child by another man, it would have been easier
    to react with utter horror at the thought of male/male sexual
    attraction.
    
    The realest thing to me John, is the swift kick to hypothalamus that
    happens when a beautiful man walks by.  You aren't in my head at the
    time so I have no way of showing you how genuine that reaction is, but,
    on the other hand, you aren't in my head when that occurs because of a
    beautiful woman either.  I've felt both and they really are real, and
    looking back at my life I can see how the male reaction has been there,
    even as far back as thirteen -- I can remember staring at another guy,
    really just very struck by how, well, beautiful he was -- very
    puppy-doggish actually.  You can imagine how swiftly that got shelved
    when he noticed, but that, as they say, is another story!
    
    What *is* different is emotional connections.  I've always had a much
    easier time being close friends with women, although over the past
    couple of years I have made some close male friendships.  *THAT* I
    think comes from the rape...it has always been very, very difficult
    dealing emotionally with my male peers.
    
    If it hadn't happened?  I think (okay, no way to prove it I know) I
    would have been able to acknowledge the sexuality issues a lot earlier. 
    Would have been confusing but most of puberty is confusing anyway.  One
    thing I did thoroughout adolescence was develop very strong crushes for
    female friends who were in absolutely no danger of reciprocating at all
    on that level...which was what I wanted actually.  Physical intimacy
    was excruciatingly threatening so I shielded myself from it
    entirely...I realize today that what happened to me had nothing to do
    with intimacy, but at the time I was coping without any help at all.
    
    There are a lot of beautiful *people* on Hawaii.  Like I said in
    another string to you, John, one thing I've learned the past couple of
    years is how much falling in *love* with someone is important to me.  I
    used to run screaming from that, but not anymore.
    
    It's taken a long while, but I do have my life ahead of me instead of
    always looking back at the past wondering what I did wrong.
    
    Daniel

    re: "The answer is in us"
    
    That's a valid self-perspective.  The Christian perspective is that the
    answer is in Christ.  If Christ is superfluous to obtaining answers,
    then the suffering, death, and resurrection of the God who became man
    has little meaning indeed.
    
    The answer to why the is suffering is found in part in Jesus'
    explanation to the disciples of the man born blind: "this happened so
    that the work of God might be displayed in his life.  As long as it is
    day, we must do the workd of him of sent me.  Night is coming, when no
    one can work.  While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
    Jn 9 NIV                        
    
    So we don't merely do good for goodness sakes, we live lives in the
    imitation of the life of Christ.

    Hi Patrick!  We agree!
    
    re: .91 "the answer is in us"
    
    >>The Christian perspective is that the answer is in Christ
    
    Exactly.  And Christ is within us.  That is why the answer is within
    us.
    
    Ruth

Daniel,

Thank you for sharing your story here.  I would love to read your poem 
if you would like to send it to me offline.

As I've mentioned before you remind me of my son in many ways...

Love,

Ro

    I had a United Methodist pastor who firmly believed that we don't
    become what we become in spite of the trials we face, but *because*
    of the trials we face.
    
    He overcame a painful case of shyness as a child to become a preacher.
    Had he not experienced the one, he claimed, he probably would not have
    become the other.
    
    Richard
    

re .0

	I have briefly scanned the entries to this note and would like
	to add my own thoughts to Richard's base note.

	;There's much about life that's not ours to choose.

	Richard along with the other things that you listed one can also add
	aging and/or death. It is something that is forced on all of us, 
	as Solomon put it in Ecclesiastes 9:11b NWT "because time and 
	unforseen occurrence befall them all."

	It seems that we are all, to differing degrees, helpless to the 
	calamities that dog mankind. Couple helplessness with hopelessness and 
	all you have is despair. However, having hope can help one to cope with
	life's difficulties. But how can one gain hope?. Well studying the 
	Bible can show us where we should pin our hopes: 

	In the model prayer in Matthew 6:10b NWT Jesus told his followers
	to pray "Let your will take place as in heaven, also upon earth."
	So many pray that the dismal situation that we see here on earth
	will be changed by God at a future date. Is this realistic?, well
	the Bible does hold out many promises that God has made. Take 
	homelessness and hunger as two examples, these are big problems in all 
	countries, but notice God's promise as mentioned in Isaiah 65:21,22 NWT
 	"And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will
 	certainly plant vineyards and eat their fruitage. They will not build 
	and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else 
	do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people 
	be, and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the 
	full." Sounds good does it not. There are many other promises, however 
	Revelation 21:3,4 NWT puts it in a nutshell, it reads "With that I 
	heard a loud voice from the throne say: 'Look! The tent of God is with 
	mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. 
	And God himself will wipe every tear from their eyes, and death will be
 	no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The 
	former things have passed away.'" So all the maladies that befall 
	mankind today will be eradicated, for God gives us the assurance in 
	verse 5 "And the One seated on the throne said:' Look! I am making all 
	things new.'Also he says:"Write, because these words are faithful and 
	true."

	But how will God accomplish this? Well in context with God's will
	taking place on earth is the establishment of his kingdom (Daniel 2:44).
 	As  Matthew 6:10a NWT reads "Let your kingdom come." and this kingdom
	will bring about benefits for all of righteous mankind.

	With this we see the significance of Jesus commencing his preaching 
	by proclaiming "Repent, YOU people, for the kingdom of the heavens as 
	drawn near." Matthew 3:17b NWT
	
	Which in part was in fulfillment to prophecy in Isaiah 61:1,2 NWT
	"The spirit of the sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, for the reason
	that Jehovah has anointed me to tell good news to the meek ones. He
	has sent me to bind the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to those
	taken captive and the wide opening [of the eyes] even to the prisoners;
	to proclaim the year of goodwill on the part of Jehovah and the day
	of vengeance on the part of our God; to comfort all the mourning ones;"

	So one does not have to fully except the "cards one has been dealt with" 
	as final, for Jesus proclaimed liberty to all the mourning/oppressed 
	ones freeing them from their captivity by offering a way out from their
 	predicament. Learning more through Bible study can help one see what God
	requires of them so that they can see the realization of the kingdom 
	hope. 

	An invitation to all: Jehovah's Witnesses are only to freely willing
	to show what God's kingdom means and how it will help righteous mankind.
	All you have to do is ask when they call at your home.

	Phil. 

	

    Phil,
    
    	I appreciate your "witness" here.  Pun fully and honorably
    intended.
    
    Richard
    

	Richard,

	Thank you that was kind. Btw I appreciate your questions in many
	of the basenotes, they certainly do get one to think and search for
	the answers. Which I and no doubt others have found very beneficial.

	Phil.

    .97
    
    >  I appreciate your questions in many
    >  of the basenotes
    
    Thanks!  I consider part of my purpose here to pose provocative
    questions.
    
    Richard
    

       Religion gives us the theology of rationalization.  We can
       rationalize that bad things, even atrocities, can be the for the
       greater glory of God.  God lets bad things happen so that we can,
       by coming closer to Christ, give praise to God.  Or, as with Job,
       we are being tested in our convictions.  Or perhaps it is God
       doling out "justice" for in individuals previous wrong doings. 
       We can even rationalize that Satan controls the minds of all evil
       doers from corrupt politicians to deranged pedophiles.  All this,
       however, brings me little comfort.

       My personal rationalization is that in some things God has no
       control to intervene.  At the time of creation God made up all
       the rules of nature and the cosmos.  Some of these rules we know,
       but most we don't.  These rules do not always guarantee perfect
       and wonderful things to happen all the time.  In any case, the
       rules are the rules and not even God can break them.  So when a
       child is born handicapped, or is hit by a car, the rules were
       followed -- it's just that somewhere in the equation something
       was introduced that we don't understand.  Bad stuff is going to
       happen.  If we know the rules, we can intervene (change the
       equation, so to speak) and prevent some bad things from
       happening.  In fact we do this every day: we wear seat belts, we
       look both ways before crossing the road, we use birth control, we
       seek help from mental health professionals.

       Now with that said, and with a personal acceptance that a certain
       amount of bad stuff is going to occur, regardless of what I or
       anyone (including God) can do, I face all events in my life with
       complete acceptance and resolution.  Well, maybe not... ok hardly
       ever.  But when I do find myself saying "why me", I try to tell
       myself "Ok, if not you then who?  Would you be happy if that guy
       over there lost his job?  Do you wish that woman next door was
       wheelchair bound?".  My goal is to get to the point where I can
       say, "fortunately it's I that have this problem and not her,
       because I have the strength to deal with this adversity; I can
       bear this cross".  Is this how I act?  Not often enough, I'm
       afraid.  But it is what I'm striving for.


       		Eric

re:.99

Now that is a philosophy that I can understand! 

If I were to believe in God, your tack is one that I could take.

Steve

    Thanks, John.  Those were thought-provoking.
    
    Richard
    

"Everything in life that we really accept undergoes a change, so suffering
must become love.  This is the mystery.  This is what I must do.  I must
pass from a personal love to a greater love...It is to lose oneself more
utterly, to love more deeply, to feel oneself a part of life -- not
separate.

Oh Life! accept me -- make me worthy, teach me.

I write that.  I look up.  The leaves move in the garden, the sky is pale,
and I catch myself weeping.  It is hard -- it is hard to make a good death."


					- Katherine Mansfield
					  while struggling with tuberculosis
					  "Journal"

    I used to do a bit of "wheelchairing": taking patient of a local
    paraplegic clinic out for a bit of fresh air.
    
    Once, one of the guys said: "God didn't do this to me, the Devil did.
    That's why I fight back - to show the bastard that he can't beat a
    Christian."
    
    Another said: "God and Satan play football (soccer) with people and
    they are using me as the ball. One day, when they are fighting for
    me I'm going to explode and cripple them both. In the meantime, I'm
    enjoying the game, even though Satan is leading at the moment."
    
    They were both full of energy and enjoyed life. Both competed in the
    paraplegic olympics on at least two occasions.
    
    Greetigs, Derek. 

re: .101 skelly_jo

I've read C.S.Lewis' The Problem of Pain in which he grapples with some
of these issues.  It sounds like the play was faithful to what he wrote.

-- 
---
Paul		ferwerda@loptsn.nuo.dec.com
Gordon		ferwerda@databs.enet.dec.com
Loptson		databs::ferwerda
Ferwerda	Tel (603) 884 1317



			
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