Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

 The human being cannot save your soul and change yhour heart..only
 Jesus Christ can.  Human beings are imperfect.  It is clear that even
 after salvation, man can and does sin (Paul refers to himself as
 the chief sinner). Our lives should be examples to others that point
 to Christ.  Unfortunately we fail miserably.  Look to Jesus, the author
 and finisher of our faith.





 Jim

	Jim, you said what you did the night before, but you believe the Bible
to be the Word of God. Why?

 Huh?


 <scratches head>

	You say you can't trust man.... yet the Bible is the inerrant Word of
God. It was written by men.

   sorry, Glen..I won't got down that rathole for the 1,474th time in
 this conference.




 Jim

	Jim... I went back and recounted. You were off by 2! :-)

    "Don't look to Christianity.  Look to Christ."
    
    Hmmmmmm....... what about....
    
    "Don't look to The Bible.  Look to Christ."
    
    I'm not overlooking the fact that most of what's been written about
    Jesus is in the Bible.  I am stating that there's a lot in the Bible
    that does not come from him or does not even pertain to him (putting
    the notion that Jesus=God on the shelf for now).  
    
    -dave

 All we can know about Jesus Christ is presented in the Bible and nowhere
 else.  We cannot come to know Christ, without the words of the Bible
 being used by the Holy Spirit to convict our heart.



 Jim

    Jim:
    
    I have a handbook of Chemistry and Physics here at my desk.  In it
    there is a lot of information about benzene.  If I want to know about
    benzene, I read those parts and ignore the rest.  Same with Jesus and
    the Bible.
    
    -dave

    
>    I have a handbook of Chemistry and Physics here at my desk.  In it
>    there is a lot of information about benzene.  If I want to know about
>    benzene, I read those parts and ignore the rest.  Same with Jesus and
>    the Bible.
    
>    -dave
    
    You cannot ignore all of Chemistry and expect to understand benzene. 
    "Benzene" only has relevance in the context of all of "Chemistry". 
    Without Chemistry you could know nothing of benzene.
    
    jeff

    
>    I'm not overlooking the fact that most of what's been written about
>    Jesus is in the Bible.  
    
    Of course you are overlooking this fact or at least the importance of
    this fact.
    
    >I am stating that there's a lot in the Bible
    >that does not come from him or does not even pertain to him (putting
    >the notion that Jesus=God on the shelf for now).  
    
    >-dave
    
    Sound's like the Silva Syndrome to me.  You claim some special,
    supernatural ability to decide what in the Bible comes from Him and/or
    pertains to Him.
    
    jeff

| <<< Note 1264.8 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Every knee shall bow" >>>



| We cannot come to know Christ, without the words of the Bible being used by 
| the Holy Spirit to convict our heart.

	This is not true. Because if it were, than the only way one could be
saved is by the Bible. You are putting some limits on how God can save someone,
aren't you?


Glen

| <<< Note 1264.9 by SMARTT::DGAUTHIER >>>

| I have a handbook of Chemistry and Physics here at my desk.  

	Dave... I didn't realize how much we think alike on this!

| <<< Note 1264.10 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>


| You cannot ignore all of Chemistry and expect to understand benzene.

	All? That makes sense. But you don't need every bit of chemistry to
understand benzene. Just that which pertains to it.



Glen

| We cannot come to know Christ, without the words of the Bible being used by 
| the Holy Spirit to convict our heart.

>>	This is not true. Because if it were, than the only way one could be
>>saved is by the Bible. You are putting some limits on how God can save someone,
>>aren't you?
    
    God has limited the way in which souls are saved to the preaching of
    Scripture, the gospel.  You can be sure that every one of God's people
    will hear the gospel preached and will be saved.
    
    jeff


Glen

| <<< Note 1264.11 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>


| Sound's like the Silva Syndrome to me.  

	See Dave? Even Jeff thinks we have that in common! This is good!

| You claim some special, supernatural ability to decide what in the Bible 
| comes from Him and/or pertains to Him.

	Maybe Dave is more like me... Dave will have to tell us.... but for me, 
I don't need to claim. The book is a guide. Nothing more. He will lead me there
when He has something He wants me to learn. He will also lead me to other
places, other people, other things. The corner of 12th and Vine could someday
have a message for me! :-)

    
    Yes, Glen, Dave is like you and you are like Dave.  Dave is not a
    believer.
    
    jeff

| <<< Note 1264.15 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>


| God has limited the way in which souls are saved to the preaching of 
| Scripture, the gospel.  You can be sure that every one of God's people
| will hear the gospel preached and will be saved.

	Jeff, again you are limiting Him. But that's ok.... for you.

| <<< Note 1264.17 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>


| Yes, Glen, Dave is like you and you are like Dave.  Dave is not a believer.

	Yes, I am aware he is not a believer that the Bible is the Word of God.

| God has limited the way in which souls are saved to the preaching of 
| Scripture, the gospel.

Gee.. You must have the same connection with the Almighty
that you mockingly accuse Glen as having to know this.

| God has limited the way in which souls are saved to the preaching of 
| Scripture, the gospel.

>>Gee.. You must have the same connection with the Almighty
>>that you mockingly accuse Glen as having to know this.
    
    The Bible attests to God's ways, Tom.  I'm not making any of this up!
    
    jeff

>    The Bible attests to God's ways, Tom.  I'm not making any of this up!

I didn't think you made it up.  Just because someone else made
it up doesn't mean it's true, though.

    Thanks Glen for picking up the argument with Jeff.  I sometimes get
    tired of re-explaining the painfully obvious to him... like not needing
    to read the entire handbook of physics to know something about benzene.
    
    Jeff:  I am a believer, but not exactly like you are.  I realize that
    puts me in league with the devil on your eyes.  And I don't have the
    strength, or should I say desire, to drag by beliefs out for you to
    step all over them.  
    
    -dave
    
    

>    The Bible attests to God's ways, Tom.  I'm not making any of this up!

>>I didn't think you made it up.  Just because someone else made
>>it up doesn't mean it's true, though.
    
    You have no basis for saying anyone "made it up", contrary to your
    assertions.  I've asked you and every other critic of the Bible to
    provide some reasonable support for your assertions that the Bible is
    not reliable.  I know you'll never come up with an answer because your
    basis for saying the Bible is unreliable is purely personal.
    
    jeff

| You cannot ignore all of Chemistry and expect to understand benzene.

>>	All? That makes sense. But you don't need every bit of chemistry to
>>understand benzene. Just that which pertains to it.
    
>>Glen
    
    Which parts of Chemistry don't pertain to benzene, Glen?  Please
    provide details.
    
    jeff

>    puts me in league with the devil on your eyes.  And I don't have the
>    strength, or should I say desire, to drag by beliefs out for you to
>    step all over them.  

    Awww... C'mon Dave.  It's fun to express your beliefs and have
    them torn apart by people quoting scripture to back up their
    damning of you.  Who knows?  You might even be labled as being
    in league with the devil.
    
    But the real fun part comes when you realize they've been *very*
    selective about the verse they've quoted and that your own 
    beliefs *are* backed up, often strongly, by what's written in
    the Bible.

    Tom

>    You have no basis for saying anyone "made it up", contrary to your
>    assertions.

    Yes I do.  You *can't* know if God has restricted the ways
    in which He makes Himself known to people.  Someone made
    that up.

>    I've asked you and every other critic of the Bible to
>    provide some reasonable support for your assertions that the Bible is
>    not reliable.

    I'm not talking about the Bible here.  I'm saying that *your*
    assertion is not reliable.

    Tom

    
>    Jeff:  I am a believer, but not exactly like you are.  I realize that
>    puts me in league with the devil on your eyes.  And I don't have the
>    strength, or should I say desire, to drag by beliefs out for you to
>    step all over them.  
    
>    -dave
    
    You have and do make your beliefs known here, Dave.  You are only a
    believer in the adequacy of your own seeking as somehow being an
    effective religious system.  It is not.  God requires rebirth.  You are
    dead, spiritually dead, and living in flames.  Don't deceive yourself. 
    The wonderful gospel of Christ, His death for your sin, both imputed
    and actual, and your faith (which He will give) to repent and believe
    in your own sin and in Christ's redeeming work on the cross on your
    behalf, will result in rebirth, justification, adoption and
    sanctification by and before God.  The fantastic culminating event will
    be actual experience of everlasting life with God.   
    
    jeff

>    effective religious system.  It is not.  God requires rebirth.  You are
>    dead, spiritually dead, and living in flames.  Don't deceive yourself. 
>    The wonderful gospel of Christ, His death for your sin, both imputed
>    and actual, and your faith (which He will give) to repent and believe
>    in your own sin and in Christ's redeeming work on the cross on your
>    behalf, will result in rebirth, justification, adoption and
>    sanctification by and before God.  The fantastic culminating event will
>    be actual experience of everlasting life with God.   

Sounds like the old "Good cop, bad cop" way of manipulating
people.

>    You have no basis for saying anyone "made it up", contrary to your
>    assertions.

>>    Yes I do.  You *can't* know if God has restricted the ways
>>    in which He makes Himself known to people.  Someone made
>>    that up.
    
    Absurd, Tom.  The OT prophets and Moses as well as the NT biblical 
    writers state that God has made Himself and His will known where
    redemption is concerned, through direct revelation to them.

>    I've asked you and every other critic of the Bible to
>    provide some reasonable support for your assertions that the Bible is
>    not reliable.

    >>I'm not talking about the Bible here.  I'm saying that *your*
    >>assertion is not reliable.

    >>Tom
    
    Don't divorce the discussion from the Bible.  Without the Bible and its
    testaments there is no discussion, certainly not with a fundamentalist
    Christian.
    
    jeff

>    effective religious system.  It is not.  God requires rebirth.  You are
>    dead, spiritually dead, and living in flames.  Don't deceive yourself. 
>    The wonderful gospel of Christ, His death for your sin, both imputed
>    and actual, and your faith (which He will give) to repent and believe
>    in your own sin and in Christ's redeeming work on the cross on your
>    behalf, will result in rebirth, justification, adoption and
>    sanctification by and before God.  The fantastic culminating event will
>    be actual experience of everlasting life with God.   

>>Sounds like the old "Good cop, bad cop" way of manipulating
>>people.
    
    Obviously you do not know Christ and His gospel, Tom.  There is nothing
    more basic to the Bible than God's messages concerning humanity's
    condition apart from God's grace and God's provision of redemption
    through Christ, throughout the ages.
    
    jeff

>| We cannot come to know Christ, without the words of the Bible being used by 
>| the Holy Spirit to convict our heart.

>	This is not true. Because if it were, than the only way one could be
>saved is by the Bible. You are putting some limits on how God can save someone,
>aren't you?


 "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God"
 



 Jim

    Look who's changing the subject!  You said God has restricted
    Himself in how he communicates with people.

    I'm not saying the Bible is wrong.  I'm saying that you're
    wrong.

>    Don't divorce the discussion from the Bible.  Without the Bible and its
>    testaments there is no discussion, certainly not with a fundamentalist
>    Christian.

    Ok. Where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is the only
    place where someone can learn about God?
    
    Tom

>>    Look who's changing the subject!  You said God has restricted
>>    Himself in how he communicates with people.

>>    I'm not saying the Bible is wrong.  I'm saying that you're
>>    wrong.
    
    But I'm only saying what the Bible says.  By saying I am "wrong" on
    this subject, you are saying that the Bible is wrong.

>    Don't divorce the discussion from the Bible.  Without the Bible and its
>    testaments there is no discussion, certainly not with a fundamentalist
>    Christian.

>>    Ok. Where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is the only
>>    place where someone can learn about God?
    
    >>Tom
    
    It doesn't say this at all.  The Bible makes it clear that every single
    person has knowledge of God by being created in His image and by living
    in His creation.  But the creation is not adequate to instruct men what
    to do concerning redemption.  The Scriptures provide this knowledge. 
    Christ says that He is the only way of salvation and that His death and
    resurrection are the only basis for man's regeneration and
    reconciliation with God.  This is all recorded in the Bible, nowhere
    else.  All other religions are contradictory to this message.
    
    With God's grace you can see the truth simply in reading the Scriptures
    that God has limited His revelational method very specifically to
    preaching the gospel of Christ.
    
    Read Romans as a primer.
    
    jeff

| <<< Note 1264.21 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>

| The Bible attests to God's ways, Tom.  I'm not making any of this up!

	Without using the Bible itself.... prove that it is the Word of God. 

| <<< Note 1264.23 by SMARTT::DGAUTHIER >>>

| I am a believer, but not exactly like you are. I realize that puts me in 
| league with the devil on your eyes. And I don't have the strength, or should 
| I say desire, to drag by beliefs out for you to step all over them.

	That's the beauty of it all, Dave. You don't need to prove anything to
Jeff, or anyone else. Just to God. He knows what is in your heart. And that is
what will or will not get you into Heaven. Belief in the Bible, saying a
default prayer, none of those things will get you into Heaven unless you
believe with your heart! 



Glen

| <<< Note 1264.24 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>


| I've asked you and every other critic of the Bible to provide some reasonable 
| support for your assertions that the Bible is not reliable.  


	Jeff, the Bible IS reliable... if God uses it as His tool of choice.
The Bible just isn't the Word of God. You can't prove the Bible without using
the Bible.


Glen

| <<< Note 1264.28 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>


| You are dead, spiritually dead, and living in flames. Don't deceive yourself.

	Jeff... please explain to me how you know what is in Dave's heart, and
where that relationship is with God? You see, there is absolutely NO WAY you
can know what is in his heart unless you are God Himself. And you are
definitely not Him. It works the same for us as well. We could say your actions
are unloving, and therefor you can't be a product of God's, because you lack
love. But how can we know what is in your heart? The answer is we can't. So
until you come out as God, please spare us the, "you're spiritually dead"
stuff, because there is NO way you can possibly know.



Glen

| <<< Note 1264.32 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Every knee shall bow" >>>


| "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God"

	Faith cometh from God. What tool(s) he uses to gain your faith is His
choice. But it all cometh from Him, not a tool.


Glen

| <<< Note 1264.34 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>

| But I'm only saying what the Bible says.  By saying I am "wrong" on
| this subject, you are saying that the Bible is wrong.

	No... he could be saying your interpretation is wrong.



Glen

| You are dead, spiritually dead, and living in flames. Don't deceive yourself.

>>	Jeff... please explain to me how you know what is in Dave's heart, and
>>where that relationship is with God? You see, there is absolutely NO WAY you
>>can know what is in his heart unless you are God Himself. 
    
    The Bible makes it clear what is in Dave's heart, your heart, my heart,
    Mother Theresa's heart and so on with every other human.  Furthermore,
    Dave reveals his heart through his words, as we all do.
    
    >>And you are definitely not Him. It works the same for us as well. 
    
    How do you know I am not him?
    
    
    >>We could say your actions are unloving, and therefor you can't be a 
    >>product of God's, because you lack love. 
    
    How does God define love? 
    
    >>But how can we know what is 
    >>in your heart? The answer is we can't. So until you come out as God, 
    >>please spare us the, "you're spiritually dead" stuff, because there 
    >>is NO way you can possibly know.

    >>Glen
    
    Of course there is a *possible* way I can know!  It is possible that
    the Bible is God's Word and that what it says about our hearts is then
    completely true.
    
    jeff

| But I'm only saying what the Bible says.  By saying I am "wrong" on
| this subject, you are saying that the Bible is wrong.

>>	No... he could be saying your interpretation is wrong.
    
    Well, he wouldn't be saying only *my* interpretation is wrong but that
    billions of Jews' and Christians' intepretations are wrong since the
    Bible has a very, very long history as Scripture.
    
    Furthermore, it matters not what Tom (or you) assert.  Tom and you
    would have to demonstrate that my interpretation is wrong.  It is your
    responsibility to do so if you want to contend with me or it.
    
    jeff

>    Furthermore, it matters not what Tom (or you) assert.  Tom and you
>    would have to demonstrate that my interpretation is wrong.  It is your
>    responsibility to do so if you want to contend with me or it.

    Well, Glen.  I guess that means that no one comes to 
    God but through Jeff.

    Tom

    
    Btw, Glen and Dave, are you going to give evidence that benzene may be
    understood outside of Chemistry?  I'm waiting.
    
    jeff

re Jim 1264.8

 >All we can know about Jesus Christ is presented in the Bible and nowhere
 >else.
    
    That is false.  THere are things we know about Jesus Christ thru the
    Gospels and letters that were not included within the cannon.  there
    are things we know about Jesus Christ thru the secondary research of
    scholars thruout the centuries.  There are even things we know about
    Jesus Christ because of the lack of other Historical Knowledge.  I.E.
    the fact that their is little historic evidence about Jesus outside of
    the Bible tells us some important things about Jesus Christ.
    
    >>We cannot come to know Christ, without the words of the Bible
    >>being used by the Holy Spirit to convict our heart.

    
    I agree with this statement.  The Bible does in fact provide the
    primary source of our knowledge about Jesus Christ.  The Holy Spirit is
    needed in our hearts to help us interpret the evidence presented in the
    Bible and even the nature of the Bible itself.
    
    It is a very interesting and confusing phenomena that so many people
    intepret the same Bible in so many different ways.
    
    God's knowledge, certainly is secret and hidden (as stated by the
    Apostle Paul).


 Jim

    RE .24 & .25 (Jeff)
    
    >I've asked you and every other critic of the Bible to provide some
    >reasonable support for your assertions that the Bible is not reliable. 
    
    If your definition of "reason" stems from an unconditional acceptance
    that everyting in the Bible is true, then you're right, there cannot (by
    definition) be ~reasonable~ support to the notion that the Bible is 
    unreliable.  My definition of reason stems from another place which
    tells me that stories like Noah's Ark are fiction, thereby leaving the
    Bible in a state of being less than totally reliable.  Until and unless
    we can agree on what reasonable means, this discussion is moot.
    
    
    >Which parts of Chemistry don't pertain to benzene
    
    The 56th edition of the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, pp F-193, has
    a section on the estimated age of the Earth.  This is rrelevant to the
    chemistry of benzene :-)))  BTW, the estimated age is about 5 billion
    years.
    
    
    RE .26 (Tom)
    >It's fun to express your beliefs and have
    >them torn apart by people quoting scripture to back up their
    >damning of you. 
    
    I welcome constructive criticism.  But I don't think that the Bible was
    meant to be used in the negative way it sometimes is.   I think it
    should be known that beating people up with the Bible does not serve to 
    improve their reationship with God.  Michael Crews urged me to accept
    the Bible one bit at a time.  This is more palletable to me than having
    it shoved down my throat, or rammed up my....
    
    
    RE .28 , .31  and .34(Jeff)
    
    >You are dead, spiritually dead, and living in flames.
    
    And you claim that I'M the one who has supernatural abilities!!!!
    
    >The wonderful gospel of Christ....
    
    The wonderful gospel(s) of Christ are indeed wonderful.  You and I read
    the same words but find different meaning.  Why is that so hard to
    understand?
    
    >Obviously you do not know Christ and His gospel, Tom.
    
    I have a feeling he does.  I think he understands the heart of the
    message.  Didn't Jesus say that he was here to write the law onto the
    hearts of men and not on stone (paper)?  I wonder, if he was here today
    and willing to speak about our *battle* over the written words of his
    life, what would he have to say?                 -------
    
    Isn't the "flavor" of what he was talking about more important than what
    folks wrote about him on paper long after he died?  Should we not
    attempt to practice the message he tried to write in our hearts and not
    quibble about what was written on paper?
    
    >The Bible makes it clear that every single person has knowledge of God
    >by being created in His image and by living in His creation. 
    
    Last weekend I bought a book written about Meister Eckhart.  I'm
    reading it very slowly.  He could become rather deep at times and I
    don't want to misss his meaning.  He had some very interesting
    things to say about God being inherent in man.  But this is straying
    from the topic at hand.
    
    Re .36 (Glen)
    
    >That's the beauty of it all, Dave. You don't need to prove anything to
    >Jeff, or anyone else. Just to God. He knows what is in your heart. And
    >that is what will or will not get you into Heaven. Belief in the Bible,
    >saying a default prayer, none of those things will get you into Heaven
    >unless you believe with your heart!
    
    That appears to be the message... Jesus' message.  It's an impossible
    thing to describe in words so Jesus, like many others, were forced to
    dance around the thing by describing what it's "like" or what it's "not
    like".  This was not due to any limitation he had, rather, it was due
    to the limitations of his audience.  But I think the personal example
    he set made, or should make, a greater impression than his words.
    
    -dave
    
                                 
    
    
    

|    Jesus Christ because of the lack of other Historical Knowledge.  I.E.
|    the fact that their is little historic evidence about Jesus outside of
|    the Bible tells us some important things about Jesus Christ.
    
    This is false.  Try picking up the works of Josephus, Philo, and other
    first-century historians living in Israel.  There are also letters
    between Roman officials mentioning Jesus Christ and all the commotion
    in Jerusalem.  One of the more famous ones was written by Pilate
    himself to Tiberius Caesar where he made an account for what happened.
    
    Mike

    >I've asked you and every other critic of the Bible to provide some
    >reasonable support for your assertions that the Bible is not reliable. 
    
    >If your definition of "reason" stems from an unconditional acceptance
    >that everyting in the Bible is true, then you're right, there cannot (by
    >definition) be ~reasonable~ support to the notion that the Bible is 
    >unreliable.  My definition of reason stems from another place which
    >tells me that stories like Noah's Ark are fiction, thereby leaving the
    >Bible in a state of being less than totally reliable.  Until and unless
    >we can agree on what reasonable means, this discussion is moot.
    
    The only reason you have for concluding the account of Noah is fiction
    is a presupposition that the sovereign God does not exist.
    
    >Which parts of Chemistry don't pertain to benzene
    
    >The 56th edition of the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, pp F-193, has
    >a section on the estimated age of the Earth.  This is rrelevant to the
    >chemistry of benzene :-)))  BTW, the estimated age is about 5 billion
    >years.
    
    So?  
    
    
    >The wonderful gospel of Christ....
    
    >>The wonderful gospel(s) of Christ are indeed wonderful.  You and I read
    >>the same words but find different meaning.  Why is that so hard to
    >>understand?
    
    We don't find different meaning, we find contradictory meaning!  This
    is not reasonable.
    
    >Obviously you do not know Christ and His gospel, Tom.
    
    >>I have a feeling he does.  I think he understands the heart of the
    >>message.  Didn't Jesus say that he was here to write the law onto the
    >>hearts of men and not on stone (paper)?  I wonder, if he was here today
    >>and willing to speak about our *battle* over the written words of his
    >>life, what would he have to say?                 -------
	
    So, we have an unbeliever attesting to another unbeliever's agreement
    with Jesus's words, all in contradiction to what the Bible actually
    says as well as the testimony of many experts and millenia of history. 
    Use your reason, Dave, and see how ridiculous your position is.
    
    Concerning the battle over the written words He would say, "My word is
    truth".
         
    >Isn't the "flavor" of what he was talking about more important than what
    >folks wrote about him on paper long after he died?  Should we not
    >attempt to practice the message he tried to write in our hearts and not
    >quibble about what was written on paper?
    
    If the "flavor" (whatever that is) contradicts what is actually written
    (by people who lived with Him) then unequivocally the answer is "no" it
    is not only not more important but it will be different than what is
    taught.
        
    jeff    
                                 
    
    
    

> >All we can know about Jesus Christ is presented in the Bible and nowhere
> >else.
    
>    That is false.  
 

   What I meant was "all we can know about Jesus Christ and his redemptive
   death for humankind is presented in the Bible and nowhere else"


    
   


 Jim

    Well Jeff, you did it again.  I'm pissed off at you and your Bible. 
    This string has become a negative thing for me.  So I won't fuel your
    vengance with any more replies.
    
    Have a good one.
    
    -dave

>    >Obviously you do not know Christ and His gospel, Tom.
>    
>    >>I have a feeling he does.  I think he understands the heart of the
>    >>message.  Didn't Jesus say that he was here to write the law onto the
>    >>hearts of men and not on stone (paper)?  I wonder, if he was here today
>    >>and willing to speak about our *battle* over the written words of his
>    >>life, what would he have to say?                 -------
>	
>    So, we have an unbeliever attesting to another unbeliever's agreement
>    with Jesus's words, all in contradiction to what the Bible actually
>    says as well as the testimony of many experts and millenia of history. 
>    Use your reason, Dave, and see how ridiculous your position is.

    Jeff,

    You are once again bearing false witness.

    Knock it off.

    Or do you believe that because you are "saved" that you can
    do *anything* you feel like and that, because you are "forgiven"
    you don't need a conscience?  Such an attitude would certainly
    be a tool of evil.

    Tom

    What is evil, Tom?
    
    jeff

>    Well Jeff, you did it again.  I'm pissed off at you and your Bible. 
>    This string has become a negative thing for me.  So I won't fuel your
>    vengance with any more replies.
    
    You seem awfully sensitive, Dave.  
    
    Now how and why would I want to "get back at you" (i.e. "vengance")? 
    What have you done to me?
    
    Remember Dave, you can't expect to be unchallenged here especially as
    long as you attempt to mix your irrational metaphysics with orthodox
    Christianity.
    
    jeff    

>    What is evil, Tom?

    You are evading the subject.

    In your previous message you lied.
    
    If your belief system allows this, accepts this and condones
    this, then you are not a Christian.

    Tom

    I lied?  About what?  On what basis did I lie?
    
    jeff

>    I lied?  About what?  On what basis did I lie?

    See .51

    If you go and pretend you don't know what I'm talking about
    there then you only lengthen your lie.  I'm begining to see
    why you know so much about the devil.

    And you accuse Glen of deception?
    
    Tom

    
    I can only guess at what you're referring to, Tom.  If you pretend that
    I know what you're talking about when I tell you that I probably don't,
    then you're just being childish.  If you believe that I lied, tell me
    plainly what you're referring too!
    
    jeff

You can play your little games with yourself from now on.

    Tom, let it go.  Just don't fight with him anymore.  You know you're on
    the right path.  Don't let him drag you down by making you angry.  Just
    ignore him and move in a positive direction.  It's difficult to leave
    him with the last word, especially when you know you're right.  But
    once you do, the anger subsides.  It's a liberating thing.
    
    Have you read much of Eckhart?  He was waaaaaaaay ahead of his time. 
    "The eye through which I see God is the eye through which God sees me".
    This from a 13th century catholic!
    
    -dave

 ZZ   If your belief system allows this, accepts this and condones
 ZZ       this, then you are not a Christian.
    
    Tom, the identifyer of a Christian is the possession of the Holy
    Spirit...as we have discussed many times here.  The words which condemn
    a person...
    
    
    
    I don't believe....
    
    
    
    which I hear frequently in this file.  
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 1264.41 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>

| The Bible makes it clear what is in Dave's heart, your heart, my heart,
| Mother Theresa's heart and so on with every other human.  Furthermore,
| Dave reveals his heart through his words, as we all do.

	No... Dave's words don't always reflect what is in his heart. Have you
ever said something you wished you never did? Be real.

	The Bible is a mere book. It can not tell what is in anyone's heart.
The only one who is capable of doing that is God.

| How do you know I am not him?

	Because God is of Love.



Glen

| <<< Note 1264.43 by THOLIN::TBAKER "Flawed To Perfection" >>>


| Well, Glen.  I guess that means that no one comes to God but through Jeff.

	Now that's something I hadn't thought of! :-)

| <<< Note 1264.44 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>


| Btw, Glen and Dave, are you going to give evidence that benzene may be
| understood outside of Chemistry?  I'm waiting.

	Jeff... what part don't you understand. You do not need to have the
complete knowledge of chemistry as a whole to understand the chemestry of
benzene. 


Glen

 ZZ    Because God is of Love.
    
    Glen, I am indeed respecting you for this.  A while back, you seemed to
    insist that God is the essence of Love.  You now realize that Love is
    one attribute of God.  Amazing what one little preposition can do.
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 1264.48 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>


| So, we have an unbeliever attesting to another unbeliever's agreement
| with Jesus's words, all in contradiction to what the Bible actually
| says as well as the testimony of many experts and millenia of history.
| Use your reason, Dave, and see how ridiculous your position is.

	Jeff... you surprise me. You take other humans opinions because they
agree with you. You discard the ones that don't. This is very human of you. :-)
But it doesn't change things. If you can honestly say that these experts have
everything 100% correct without any teeny weeeny flaw, and have full knowledge
of it all... then I will give you your position. If there is any chance that
any teeny weeny part is flawed, or they don't have full knowledge, then it is
nothing more than a human opinion. And it would prove once and for all, that
the ONLY one who has it 100% correct with no teeny weeny flaws and has full
knowledge, is God. And when you realize this, you can see that your position is
in the same boat as everyone elses. It isn't ridiculous.




Glen

| <<< Note 1264.49 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Every knee shall bow" >>>


| What I meant was "all we can know about Jesus Christ and his redemptive
| death for humankind is presented in the Bible and nowhere else"

	And you can only prove the Bible by using the Bible. What a benchmark.

| <<< Note 1264.67 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| You now realize that Love is one attribute of God.  
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	Jack... just because you got what I said wrong doesn't make the above
^^^^^ true. :-)

    True...however, I have brought up attributes of God that you have
    categorically denied through lack of belief.
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 1264.71 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| True...however, I have brought up attributes of God that you have
| categorically denied through lack of belief.

	Jack... God's Word is the Bible... how can I believe something that
can't be proven?

 Z   Jack... God's Word is the Bible... how can I believe something that
 Z   can't be proven?
    
    Good question.  The answer is that neither you or I can do this in and
    of ourselves.  Belief or faith in this case would have to come from a
    supernatural or outside force.  
    
    And yet, you believe God is love.  Interesting considering the plight
    of humanity by senses would indicate a God that has abandoned
    us...considering death is imminent.
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 1264.73 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| Good question.  The answer is that neither you or I can do this in and
| of ourselves.  Belief or faith in this case would have to come from a
| supernatural or outside force.

	Well, I'll wait for God and not just any supernatural or outside force!



Glen

>| What I meant was "all we can know about Jesus Christ and his redemptive
>| death for humankind is presented in the Bible and nowhere else"

>	And you can only prove the Bible by using the Bible. What a benchmark.



  prove to me that an inch is an inch.




 Jim

| <<< Note 1264.75 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Every knee shall bow" >>>

| prove to me that an inch is an inch.

	Jim... nice diversion. An inch is an inch because we humans have said
it was an inch. The Bible is the Bible because the authors said it was. 

	Prove the Bible is the Word of God without using the Bible itself as
the proof. 


Glen

>>| prove to me that an inch is an inch.

>	Jim... nice diversion. An inch is an inch because we humans have said
>it was an inch. The Bible is the Bible because the authors said it was. 

>	Prove the Bible is the Word of God without using the Bible itself as
>the proof. 



 Glen, the distance between point a and b below is one inch.  Prove it.

 a-------b  




 

 Z   Well, I'll wait for God and not just any supernatural or outside
 Z   force!
    
    Glen, the supernatural or outside force I was alluding to is the Holy
    Spirit.  If you are truly redeemed, then you don't have to wait for
    God.  
    
    -Jack

	Jack, while you may say the HS, I sometimes wonder if you know who He
is.

    Are you saying this because you really believe this to be the case?  Or
    is it because I oppose much of the governmental intrusions you seem to
    support?  
    
    -Jack

	The former. The latter just helps support it.

 ZZ    The former. The latter just helps support it.
    
    Considering your respect for the book Glen, it doesn't seem like your
    in a position to chide me for not knowing who the Holy Spirit is. 
    Secondly, I find it interesting just how twisted a view you and many
    others have regarding the role of government.
    
    Davey Crocket was a congressional member.  One evening he left the
    Capitol building and saw a slight glow in the distance.  He summoned
    his friends and they investigated.  It turned out to be a school for
    the blind that burned to the ground.  
    
    The next day, Crockett appropriated 20K from Congress to help rebuild
    this school.  Some months later when coming up for reelection, he
    bumped into one of his strongest supporters and said, "I hope I can
    count on your support and your vote as I have in the past..."  to which
    the man replied, "NO...YOU WILL NOT GET MY SUPPORT OR MY VOTE. 
    YOU...ARE A TRAITOR."  Confused, Crockett replied, "What did I do to
    diserve such a dishonor?"  The man replied, "You have taken money which
    was NOT YOURS, and used it for the building of a private
    institution...something sir, you had no constitutional authority to
    do!"
    
    The next morning, Crockett went up to the man and said, "Sir, I have
    read through the constitution and realize the grave error I have made. 
    If I promise NEVER...to do such a thing again, can I get your vote?  I
    understand now!"  The man replied that he would support him.  
    
    Stealing Glen....something you, and others seem to take for granted.  A
    Judeo Christian precept given by the founding fathers to which
    government was supposed to have its foundation upon.  Ironic that you
    who see my view on government role as proof of my lack of the HS...when
    the sorry truth Glen is that you support a group of well meaninged
    extoortionists and thieves.
    
    -Jack

re Note 1264.82 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN:

        (Continuing the rathole:  Thanks for the story.  I have no
        doubt that if the extreme right got its way in this country
        it would be the norm for elected officials to do nothing to
        help even the handicapped in times of exceptional emergency. 
        This is why I oppose them.  People who acted so would in no
        way represent me.)

        Bob

| <<< Note 1264.82 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| Considering your respect for the book Glen, it doesn't seem like your
| in a position to chide me for not knowing who the Holy Spirit is.

	Jack, I am basing it on your constantly getting yourself into trouble
with women, NEA, government, gays, old people, anyone who votes for a Kennedy, 
those who you perceive as not being Christian. It may be a wrong view to take,
but your words do make me think you are missing the HS at times.

| Secondly, I find it interesting just how twisted a view you and many
| others have regarding the role of government.

	Wow... believe it or not, I didn't read this before I put in
government. :-)

| Stealing Glen....something you, and others seem to take for granted.  

	Uh huh....

    ZZ       Uh huh....
    
    Very easy to say Glen, so what are you are going to do about it?

.50

>    Well Jeff, you did it again.  I'm pissed off at you and your Bible. 
>    This string has become a negative thing for me.  So I won't fuel your
>    vengance with any more replies.

Does this mean to become more like someone who claims to be reborn,
to be saved, to be truly alive in Christ, to be the genuine article
of what it means to be a Christian, may be something you'd prefer to
avoid?

Richard

| <<< Note 1264.85 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| Very easy to say Glen, so what are you are going to do about it?

	Jack.. it was sarcasm for you're wrong again. 

    I'm wrong???  How do you figure this?  Ohh...you agree with me that our
    government has instituted theft policies.  Thank you.
    
    -Jack

    Re .86 (Richard)
    
    I do not see Jeff as being representative of the things you mentioned.
    
    Quite the contrary.