Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

re .0

Richard,

Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven
is mentioned in Revelation 12. The Bible
doesn't mention how many angels were mislead
by Satan.

Phil.

    .1  Thanks, Phil!  That helps.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    Revelation 12:1-9.  See also Isaiah 14:1-23 and Ezekiel 28:1-19.
    
    In Revelation 12:4, the third of the stars thrown to earth seem to be 
    symbolic of the former angels now demons of Satan.  I've never studied 
    it in depth, but it may be more than symbolism.
    
    Mike

    IS Satin a pre existent being Like God and Christ or was he create
    Through "The Word"
    
                                     Patricia

    .3  Thanks for the pointers, Mike.  I'll look 'em up.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

RE:         <<< Note 1016.4 by POWDML::FLANAGAN "I feel therefore I am" >>>

   > IS Satin a pre existent being Like God and Christ or was he create
   > Through "The Word"
    
      
  I don't think satin has been around that long...maybe late 1800's?



 Jim

No, Satan is not a pre-existing being.

He is an angelic being, created to be good, but rebelled against God.

/john

.7 COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert"

>He is an angelic being, created to be good, but rebelled against God.

Pretty poor creation, then. Why doesn't God just scrap the project and start
over, since this one failed? And just how does a perfect being make such a big
mistake? 

Steve, who must be feeling feisty this morning.

P.S. I know the argument about free will, I just don't buy it.

.8  Feisty One,

>Pretty poor creation, then. Why doesn't God just scrap the project and start
>over, since this one failed? And just how does a perfect being make such a big
>mistake? 

I have heard this theory (sure to offend many):

	When God was going to God School, God was only a "C" student.

I have also heard this comeback:

	Everybody alway thinks they can do the next guy's job better.

Shalom,
Richard

    There is a verse in the OT similar to the expression used in Revelation 
    12:4 and the third of the stars of heaven:
    
Daniel 8:10
And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the
host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

    Mike

    The Revelation has more references to Hebrew Scripture than any other
    in the Second Testament.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    I believe you....but I always thought Romans had the most...
    
    Interesting!
    
    -Jack

So, is the event described in .0 as recorded in the Revelation something
that's already happened or is it yet to take place?  I have usually heard
the account as being something that took place early on.

Shalom,
Richard

    It was a flashback to the heavenly events leading up to the birth of the 
    Messiah.  The dragon was poised to destroy the child - King Herod
    killing all the newborn males.

re .13

Richard,

This is a heavenly event and the symbolic child is also
in heaven (verse 5). The event takes place at the beginning
of the "lord's day" for earlier John mentions in Revelation
1:10a NWT "By inspiration I came to be in the Lord's day,".
This means that the events that he witnesses actually happen
during the time period of the "Lord's day". So one needs
to look into when the "Lord's day" begins.

The dragon dragging a third of the stars of heaven, indicates
that Satan dragged a great number of angels with him in
his rebellious course. Satan is spoken of casting them down
to the earth, which alludes to the time when Satan induced
these disobedient ones to go down to the earth and cohabit
with the daughters of men (Genesis 6:4, 2 Peter 2:4).Jude 6 
NWT reads "And the angels that did not keep their original 
position but forsook their proper dwelling place he has 
reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the 
judgment of the great day."

There is a lot to be understood in Revelation chapter 12,
and it's worth looking into because the outcome of that
war fought in heaven affects all of mankind here on earth.
So too the blessings that come from the birth of the
symbolic male child.


Phil.

    >                -< Happens at the beginning of the Lord's day >-
    
    It can't possibly because Satan wasn't tossed out of heaven at the
    beginning of the Lord's day.  If this were true, Satan would be in
    heaven right now!  This couldn't be anything else but a flashback.
    
>This is a heavenly event and the symbolic child is also
>in heaven (verse 5). The event takes place at the beginning
    
    Because according to Colossians 1:15-17 says that Christ is the
    pre-existent Creator.  This birth is God coming in the flesh per John
    1:14.
    
Colossians 1:15-17
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or
principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

>The dragon dragging a third of the stars of heaven, indicates
>that Satan dragged a great number of angels with him in
>his rebellious course. Satan is spoken of casting them down
    
    You previously stated that this wasn't in the Bible.  Glad you now know
    otherwise.
    
>to the earth, which alludes to the time when Satan induced
>these disobedient ones to go down to the earth and cohabit
>with the daughters of men (Genesis 6:4, 2 Peter 2:4).Jude 6 
>NWT reads "And the angels that did not keep their original 
>position but forsook their proper dwelling place he has 
>reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the 
>judgment of the great day."
    
    The offspring of these unions were called the Nephalim.  They were
    reported to be giants, might even be some in the NBA ;-)

    Mike

    By the way, Frank Peretti has written some great books on spiritual
    warfare.  They're fiction, yet scripturally sound.  "This Present
    Darkness" and "Piercing the Darkness" are must reads.  Even Steven
    Spielberg and Dean Jones co-own the movie rights to the books. 
    Spielberg would make these awesome on the screen.
    
    Mike

re .16

>The dragon dragging a third of the stars of heaven, indicates
>that Satan dragged a great number of angels with him in
>his rebellious course. Satan is spoken of casting them down
    
;    You previously stated that this wasn't in the Bible.  Glad you now know
;    otherwise.

Mike,

My first reply to Richard was "off the cuff" without refreshing
my memeory by reading the passage of scripture. It is still my 
understanding that the third should not be taken literal, but 
should be considered that a significant number rebelled. This 
was the main thought going through my mind when I made the 
initial remark. But as you point out, the important thing is 
knowing what is really in God's word. As mentioned in another 
topic, God's original purpose was for his name to be known and 
got the Bible writers to pen it (6828 times in the Hebrew text). 
Adonai wasn't in the Bible but Christendom continue to follow 
the superstition of the Scribes in referring to God by the title 
LORD (Adonai) when God had intended persons to know him by the 
Divine name YHWH. 

Phil.

re .16

    >                -< Happens at the beginning of the Lord's day >-
    
;    It can't possibly because Satan wasn't tossed out of heaven at the
;    beginning of the Lord's day.  If this were true, Satan would be in
;    heaven right now!  This couldn't be anything else but a flashback.

 Mike,

 If I understand you correctly your'e saying that, Satan would still
 be in heaven because the Lord's day has not started, right?. 

 Some believe that The Lord's day has begun, Jesus gave signs of his
 presense "parousia" for those inhabiting the earth. It would begin
 with wars, famine, earthquakes, pestilence etc on an unprecedented 
 scale earthwide (Matthew 24). In Revelation 12:12 NWT we are told that 
 upon Satan being ousted out of heaven, "On this account be glad, YOU
 heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe, for the earth and for the
 sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, 
 knowing he has a short period of time." So one can draw a parallel
 between Jesus' signs and this heavenly event that would lead to
 woe for the earth and the sea (mankind).

 This Century we have had two world wars, great famines, an increase
 in the lives lost in earthquakes, pestilences (AID's, heart disease,
 20 million lost their lives after the First World War through the
 Spanish flu epidemic.) The earth itself is being literally destroyed
 through mankinds greed. There is no getting away from it, this
 Century has been a time of woe for the world since 1914 unlike any
 other Century in history.


>This is a heavenly event and the symbolic child is also
>in heaven (verse 5). The event takes place at the beginning
    
;    Because according to Colossians 1:15-17 says that Christ is the
;    pre-existent Creator.  This birth is God coming in the flesh per John
;    1:14.
    
;Colossians 1:15-17
;Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
;For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
;visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or
;principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
;And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Sorry but I don't understand the point your making. The symbolic child in
Revelation 12 is born from the symbolic woman in heaven, verses 1,2 NWT
reads "And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun,
and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve
stars, and she was pregnant. And she cries out in her pains and in her
agony to give birth." and verse 5 "And she gave birth to a son, a male,
who is to sheperd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was 
caught away to God and to his throne." All the characters and events 
are spoken of as happening in heaven, so I don't understand how you 
point to Jesus' earthly birth as being this event.

Phil.

    

> If I understand you correctly your'e saying that, Satan would still
> be in heaven because the Lord's day has not started, right?. 
    
    No, that seemed to be what you were saying.  The proper interpretation
    of this verse is as a flashback.  Satan and 1/3 of his followers were
    cast out of heaven.  The woman here is the nation of Israel and the
    child is Jesus Christ - which Satan tried to destroy.  Christ ascended
    back up to the right hand of God after the resurrection.

> Some believe that The Lord's day has begun, Jesus gave signs of his
> presense "parousia" for those inhabiting the earth. It would begin
    
    The Day of the Lord is the Great Tribulation.  There are a few signs
    left to go before it officially gets under way.  The Temple must and
    sacrificial system must first be rebuilt before the Antichrist can go
    into the Holy of Holies and commit the Abomination of Desolation. 
    Plans are underway, but the Temple has not been rebuilt yet.  Also, the
    Bride of Christ is still here and must be removed before God pours out
    His wrath.  God always removes the righteous before judging the wicked.

>Sorry but I don't understand the point your making. The symbolic child in
>Revelation 12 is born from the symbolic woman in heaven, verses 1,2 NWT
    
    see above.
    
>caught away to God and to his throne." All the characters and events 
>are spoken of as happening in heaven, so I don't understand how you 
>point to Jesus' earthly birth as being this event.

    Did the birth of Christ come from Heaven or earth?
    
    Mike

re Note 1016.20 by FRETZ::HEISER:

> God always removes the righteous before judging the wicked.
  
        Sounds like God is "prejudiced".

        Bob

re .20

 Mike,

 Interesting that you think that the woman is not a literal
 woman but the nation of Israel. Another interpretation is
 that this woman is God's heavenly organisation, in the
 first verse of Revelation 12 this symbolic woman is seen
 in heaven. The opposing factions are Satan and his angels
 who also are pictured in heaven (verse 3). 

;   the
;   child is Jesus Christ - which Satan tried to destroy.  Christ ascended
;   back up to the right hand of God after the resurrection.

 Both factions the woman and Satan (and his angels) are 
 seen in heaven, one should conclude that the birth takes
 place in heaven (verse 5). The male child is also symbolic, 
 Jesus Christ places a very important role, for an announcement
 takes place in verse 10 indicating what has been born....
 "And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, 'Now the salvation
 and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority
 of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our bretheren
 has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before
 our God.'" RSV What has been born is God's kingdom with
 Jesus Christ anointed as king of that kingdom, the male
 child symbolises God's heavenly kingdom and John's gives
 us a glimpse of it's birth in a symbolic sense.

;    Did the birth of Christ come from Heaven or earth?

 Jesus' earthly birth came from heaven, but the event occured
 on earth. The signs of the woman and the dragon appeared
 in heaven and not on earth. Therefore, Revelation 12 is talking
 about an event that took place in heaven for the characters
 are pictured there. 

 Phil.