| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 1354.1 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Mon May 12 1997 16:29 | 23 |
| Romans 1:18-23
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and
unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath
shewed it unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are
clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal
power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither
were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart
was darkened.
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to
corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Romans 2:14-16
2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things
contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience
also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else
excusing one another;)
2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ
according to my gospel.
|
| 1354.2 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Mon May 12 1997 16:31 | 5 |
| btw - God is not a respecter of persons, but He has intimates.
Psalm 25:14
The secret of the LORD is with them that fear Him; and He will shew them
His covenant.
|
| 1354.3 | | SMARTT::DGAUTHIER | | Mon May 12 1997 18:43 | 13 |
| Hi Mike:
My interpretation of the passages from Romans would be that the truth
of God is innate in everyone, no conditions or exceptions were
mentioned. No excuses for ignoring this truth is acceptable. I can
see the wisdom in this. But I cannot reconcile this with the concept
that believing in Jesus as the only path to God. Reconsider the person
living in China 100 B.C. . God is (was) known to that person as Romans
points out. But the context would be very different than that of
modern Christianity. If that person had valid taps into God, then why
could not a modern non-christian?
-dave
|
| 1354.4 | | LGP30::FLEISCHER | without vision the people perish (DTN 381-0426 ZKO1-1) | Mon May 12 1997 19:05 | 9 |
| re Note 1354.3 by SMARTT::DGAUTHIER:
Yes, it always seems to me inconsistent to claim that the
knowledge of God is universal (or at least universally
available) and yet claim that if how one knows God differs
markedly from the orthodox Christian doctrines of God, then
that person does not know the true God.
Bob
|
| 1354.5 | | PHXS02::HEISER | Maranatha! | Mon May 12 1997 20:39 | 7 |
| Because not everyone today has heard the preaching of the Gospel of
Jesus Christ, but everyone in here has. The Gospel has been preached
in almost the entire world. Romans 1:18-23, 2:14-16 applies to the
rare people that haven't been witnessed to due to technological or
geographical limitations.
If you have heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you are without excuse.
|
| 1354.6 | | SMART2::DGAUTHIER | | Mon May 12 1997 20:48 | 11 |
| >Romans 1:18-23, 2:14-16 applies to the
> rare people that haven't been witnessed to due to technological or
> geographical limitations.
Only to them? Was that mentioned somewhere in Romans (or elsewhere)?
Were the passages in Romans meant to excuse those who had no knowlege
of the Bible, or was it a statement about something that's innate in all
mankind?
-dave
|
| 1354.7 | | PHXS02::HEISER | Maranatha! | Mon May 12 1997 20:51 | 2 |
| I think it's pretty obvious who hasn't heard the Gospel of Jesus
Christ.
|
| 1354.8 | | SMART2::DGAUTHIER | | Mon May 12 1997 21:12 | 23 |
| Well, Mike, maybe it's not that clear.
The guy who lived in China 100 BC didn't hear of the gospel. What
about someone who lives in China today? Perhaps all some have heard is
that there are different religions in other parts of the world, and
one of them goes by the name "Christianity". His neighbor heard the
same thing but, in addition to that, there was a name... Jesus. Nothing
more than a foreign religion about someone named Jesus. Their neighbor
heard a little more, maybe that these "Christians" regard this "Jesus"
as being divine, the son of God. Their neighbor heard a little more,
etc... until you arrive at someone who's read the Bible cover to cover.
Where is the line drawn?
Does Romans apply to these people in some sort of partial way,
depending on and proportional to their exposure to the gospel of Jesus.
From the passages sited in Romans, would you say that a non-christian
with no way of knowing the gospel of Jesus would have a chance for
salvation due to the innate knowlege of God mentioned in that text?
-dave
|
| 1354.9 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Mon May 12 1997 21:48 | 24 |
| | The guy who lived in China 100 BC didn't hear of the gospel. What
so you assume. Your whole argument is based on assumption and
speculation which you have no way of proving.
| about someone who lives in China today? Perhaps all some have heard is
Christianity is one of the fastest growing faiths in China today.
China is also one of the worst offenders of human rights and
persecutions of Christians in the world. See the www page for the
Voice of the Martyrs or Open Doors International for more info.
Bottomline: they've heard of Jesus Christ.
| Where is the line drawn?
One thing we know with confidence: if you have heard the Gospel of
Jesus Christ, you are accountable for your decision on what you did
with the knowledge of Jesus Christ and His Gospel.
| From the passages sited in Romans, would you say that a non-christian
| with no way of knowing the gospel of Jesus would have a chance for
| salvation due to the innate knowlege of God mentioned in that text?
that is God's choice not mine.
|
| 1354.10 | | SMART2::DGAUTHIER | | Tue May 13 1997 13:20 | 38 |
| >so you assume.
Yes. I'm assuming that someone who lived and died before Jesus was
born, and in a part of the world which had no knowlege of the of the
Bible or biblical prophecy would not have heard of the gospel of Jesus.
Is that an unreasonable assumption?
>...which you have no way of proving.
The man living in 100 BC China was a fictitious characrter I was using
as an example of someone who could not have known the gospel of Jesus.
I believe you phrased the situation using "technological or geographical
limitations".
Interesting about China and Christianity today.
>One thing we know with confidence: if you have heard the Gospel of
> Jesus Christ, you are accountable...
Yes. Not sure what this has to do with God being fair. Or was this
statement directed at me as a warning or scare tactic?
>...that is God's choice not mine.
Yes, but what do you think? Is Romans saying that non-christians have
a valid, undeniable tap into the divine? If so, are missions to
convert non-christians (who already know God) justified?
|
| 1354.11 | | LGP30::FLEISCHER | without vision the people perish (DTN 381-0426 ZKO1-1) | Tue May 13 1997 14:28 | 16 |
| re Note 1354.10 by SMART2::DGAUTHIER:
> Yes, but what do you think? Is Romans saying that non-christians have
> a valid, undeniable tap into the divine? If so, are missions to
> convert non-christians (who already know God) justified?
Another thought-provoker: If a person who comes to know God
before hearing the Gospel subsequently has the Gospel
preached and rejects it, are they then cut off from God?
Before you (or anyone else) rushes to answer: would your
answer be any different if the people of the non-Christian
had been exploited and savaged by the people who brought the
preacher?
Bob
|
| 1354.12 | | THOLIN::TBAKER | Flawed To Perfection | Tue May 13 1997 15:39 | 10 |
| Of course God isn't fair.
He makes the rain fall upon those who deserve as well as those
who don't deserve.
He gives life and love to all, regardless.
Is that fair? I don't think so.
Tom
|
| 1354.13 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Spigot of pithiness | Tue May 13 1997 16:29 | 5 |
| The books called Job and Ecclesiates speak to the fairness of life,
life which we consider God the author.
Richard
|
| 1354.14 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Tue May 13 1997 16:40 | 21 |
| | Yes. I'm assuming that someone who lived and died before Jesus was
| born, and in a part of the world which had no knowlege of the of the
| Bible or biblical prophecy would not have heard of the gospel of Jesus.
|
| Is that an unreasonable assumption?
Yes it is unreasonable. Adam, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and Moses
didn't have that knowledge either. They knew a redeemer was coming, but
didn't have a Bible or hear the name Jesus.
| Yes. Not sure what this has to do with God being fair. Or was this
| statement directed at me as a warning or scare tactic?
It wasn't directed at anyone. Just a statement of fact.
| Yes, but what do you think? Is Romans saying that non-christians have
| a valid, undeniable tap into the divine? If so, are missions to
| convert non-christians (who already know God) justified?
Romans is not saying that.
|
| 1354.15 | | SMART2::DGAUTHIER | | Tue May 13 1997 18:48 | 11 |
| >Adam, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and Moses didn't have that knowledge either.
>They knew a redeemer was coming, but didn't have a Bible or hear the name
>Jesus.
Then they were Christians?
>Romans is not saying that.
Then what do you think it's saying?
|
| 1354.16 | | PHXS02::HEISER | Maranatha! | Tue May 13 1997 18:55 | 1 |
| Romans 3-4 tells you all about Abraham's position in Christ.
|
| 1354.17 | | SMART2::DGAUTHIER | | Tue May 13 1997 21:18 | 13 |
| Romans 1-3 doesn't even mention Abraham, although saving Abraham's
image may have been the motivation. The problem of saving OT figures
given the constraints of orthodox christian salvation has been
addressed in CP before.
The question stands. Does/did everyone, past and present, get an equal
shot at salvation? How does God reveal Jesus as the sole route to
salvation to someone who never heard of Jesus or biblical prophecy?
In what context might this revelation manifest itself to someone
who has no knowlege of Jesus or the Bible? Would this revelation be
viewed as pagan by orthodox christianity?
|
| 1354.18 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Tue May 13 1997 22:10 | 1 |
| I said chapters 3-4
|
| 1354.19 | | SMARTT::DGAUTHIER | | Wed May 14 1997 13:01 | 1 |
| not in .1
|
| 1354.20 | It's not fairness but mercy that is req'd | ALFSS1::BENSONA | Eternal Weltanschauung | Mon May 19 1997 13:06 | 92 |
| Romans 9
1 I speak the truth in Christ--I am not lying, my conscience confirms it
in the Holy Spirit--
2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for
the sake of my brothers, those of my own race,
4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the
divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple
worship and the promises.
5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry
of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! [1] Amen.
6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are
descended from Israel are Israel.
7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children.
On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be
reckoned." [2]
8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children,
but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's
offspring.
9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will
return, and Sarah will have a son." [3]
10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our
father Isaac.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in
order that God's purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve
the younger." [4]
13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." [5]
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I
will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [6]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's
mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very
purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might
be proclaimed in all the earth." [7]
18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens
whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who
resists his will?"
20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say
to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?'" [8]
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of
clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore
with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for
destruction?
23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the
objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--
24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the
Gentiles?
25 As he says in Hosea: "I will call them `my people' who are not my
people; and I will call her `my loved one' who is not my loved one,"
[9]
26 and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
`You are not my people,' they will be called `sons of the living
God.'" [10]
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the
Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be
saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and
finality." [11]
29 It is just as Isaiah said previously: "Unless the Lord Almighty had
left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom, we would have
been like Gomorrah." [12]
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue
righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.
32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by
works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."
33 As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to
stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame." [13]
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1. 5 Or Christ, who is over all. God be forever praised! Or Christ. God
who is over all be forever praised!
2. 7 Gen. 21:12
3. 9 Gen. 18:10,14
4. 12 Gen. 25:23
5. 13 Mal. 1:2,3
6. 15 Exodus 33:19
7. 17 Exodus 9:16
8. 20 Isaiah 29:16; 45:9
9. 25 Hosea 2:23
10. 26 Hosea 1:10
11. 28 Isaiah 10:22,23
12. 29 Isaiah 1:9
13. 33 Isaiah 8:14; 28:16
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