Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    I would support an quiet time each day, for a student to either do
    nothing, or pray to him/her self.
    
    I never liked the old way of school prayer.....we always read from the
    King James Bible, and I never felt that that was appropriate in the
    *public school* environment.
    
    Marc H.

 When was prayer removed from schools?






 Jim

    RE: .2
    
    Quite awhile ago around here.....maybe mid 60's?
    
    Marc H.

    
    I think it was in the very late 50s, because when I was in
    kindergarten, it had already stopped.  That was '61.
    
    We did say the Pledge of Allegience daily, though.
    
    Cindy

    Some years ago the Space Shuttle blew up carrying a teacher. Most of
    you probably remember it. It was a pretty traumatic event in many
    schools. Especially here in New Hampshire where the teacher was from.
    In the public schools many walked around in a daze and no one knew what
    to say or do. In the parochial schools, at least in the one my son
    attended, there was group spoken prayer. Students prayed for the
    victims of the explosion as well as the family and friends of those who
    died. I, and several professionals in the building, believe that the
    act of prayer was a significant aid to the emotional health and well
    being of the students.

    I tend to agree. In this case the students were able to *do* something.
    And through talking to God they talked to themselves and their peers.
    There was mutual support as well as extending support to others. I
    believe this is helpful.

    I do not believe much in rote prayer. It has it's time and place but
    I don't believe it would make a big improvement in and of itself in
    schools. What I do believe is helpful is for children to see adults
    live what they teach. In the case of parochial schools the act of daily
    spoken prayer lets students see that religion in general and prayer in
    specific is a real and important part of their teachers lives. This
    creates respect and a common bond.

    No I don't think it would help in public schools because the commitment
    to it would never be strong and kids see through that. And I doubt one
    could get permission to do it in public schools anyway. But then again
    I see public schools as a necessary evil and would rather every child
    got a good education without having to attend a government run school.

    			Alfred

    I think it depends on the area in the country.  I was still praying
    every morning with the Principal of the school in 6th grade that was in
    1969.
    
    Nancy

 I was curious as to when prayer was removed and whether or not there was
 a possible connection between that event and the negative changes in society
 since that time, recognizing of course that there are many who would deny
 such a connection.




Jim

    
    
    -1
    
     I think the connection is directly related to having given into the
    false arguement made by the seperation of church and state crowd.
    
    David

    RE: .8
    
    I disagree. I'm very much a "seperation of church and state crowd"
    person...maybe even a charter member!
    
    That fact doesn't for a moment say *anything* about my belief in God.
    
    Marc H.

    RE .2
    
    The Supreme Court ruled against compulsory prayer in 1962.  However, as
    has already been stated different areas of the country resisted
    complying.
    
    Kent
    

    
    
    Marc H.
    
     Wouldn't you prefer to live in a Theocracy(sp) than a democracy??
    
    
    David

    The demonic decade is usually cited by conservatives as the period
    between 1963 and 1973.  They'll usually cite that everything that's
    wrong with America today: violence, the disintegration of the family,
    relativistic humanism, etc. -- began with the Supreme Court ruling
    against prayer in public school.
    
    Would restoring prayer in our public schools reverse this trend??
    
    Richard
    

 Well, I'm sure its coincidental.


 Would returning prayer to schools help to reverse the trend?  Yes, in my
 opinion.




 Jim

    .13  Okay.  Can you explain how it would reverse the trend?
    
    Richard
    
    PS  You need not keep that chip on your shoulder.  I'm not the enemy.
    

    RE: .11
    
    I would prefer a representative democracy (what we have) to live in.
    There is too much damage that could occur under a state religion.
    
    Marc H.

    
    
    -1
    
     Examples???
    
    David

>    .13  Okay.  Can you explain how it would reverse the trend?
 
       Phillipians 4: 6,7

   
       
   > PS  You need not keep that chip on your shoulder.  I'm not the enemy.
    

     No chip on my shoulder.



 Jim

I think that it is good to acknowledge that there is someone
that each of us is responsible to.

I think that one of the significant problems in our society
(which is a partial root of a number of other problems) is
the independence of the individual who submits to no one but
himself or herself.  A daily does of submission to another
is good.

However, I don't know that school prayer is much of an answer.
I think that we're better off with it than without it, but
I don't think it makes much difference.  Constitutionally,
I can see why it was ruled unconsitutional by the Supreme
Court - the first of a long series of judicial rulings
that have attempted to suppress religious expression.

Collis

    RE: .16
    
    Inquisition, jahad (sp?),crusades, spain invading Mexico,etc.
    
    Absolute power corrupts ...always.
    
    Marc H.

    
    >suppress religious expression.
    
    Collis, can you give an example of a prayer that would be acceptable to
    you in public schools?
    
    I like Sanskrit myself.  I think perhaps we should all start off the 
    day chanting the Gayatri mantra.  That's a prayer. What do you think?
    
    Cindy

    .17
    
    Well, Jim, I'm not sure, but you seem to be saying that if we
    reinstituted prayer in our public schools, God would bring an
    end to the violence in America, reinforce the family, and everything
    would just get better.
    
    Richard
    
    PS  My mistake about the "chip."  Must be suffering from delusions,
    again.
    

>    Well, Jim, I'm not sure, but you seem to be saying that if we
>    reinstituted prayer in our public schools, God would bring an
>    end to the violence in America, reinforce the family, and everything
>    would just get better.
    
 
     Well, it sure would be a start.   God did say that if we would 
     humble ourselves and pray and seek His face, he would heal our land
     (pardon my paraphrase).  Obviously prayer and seeking God should
     extend beyond public schools and into our daily lives.  But I have
     absolutely no doubt whatsoever that there is a connection between
     the escalation of violence and other crimes and the general decay of
     society and the de-emphasis on the influence of God in the daily lives
     of its people.



     Jim




   

    
    Jim,
    
    I'll ask you - what prayer would you propose schools implement?
    
    Cindy

 Well, of course being a Christian I would advocate prayer to the God
 of the Bible just like was done from the early days of this country
 till whenever prayer was removed.





Jim

    
    Can you be more specific, Jim?  What kind of prayer was done 
    in the 'early days of this country'?  I'm not familiar with what
    happened before.
    
    Cindy

 I don't have the exact prayer word for word that they used, if that's
 what you mean.  But since the early settlers in this country placed 
 a significant emphasis on the Bible and their faith in God as revealed
 in the Bible, I would think their prayer would be to Him asking for 
 guidance, protection, etc.




 Jim

    
    Re.26
    
    If you propose prayer in schools, then you probably should be
    a little more specific than that.
    
    Would you require that children, regardless of their faith, be
    required to say the same prayer (Christian, God of Bible, etc.)?
    
    Cindy

 I would love to see prayer returned to public schools..I would love to
 see the 10 commandments posted in public schools.  I would love to see
 the Bible used in public schools.  I would love for young people to see
 that there *is* truth...that there *is* more to life than the stuff spewed
 on MTV, and television in general.  I would love for young people to see 
 that there is *hope*, that shooting someone because I want their coat is
 wrong, that drugs are not the answer, that Jesus Christ is alive *today*
 and able to change their lives *today*..



 I can't be more specific...I do not want to see a "to whom it may concern"
 prayer.  Unfortunately, the horse is quite a ways out of the barn now, likely
 never to return.  The plan to remove God from public schools has been successu-
 ful and is now proceeding to the remainder of society...the answer to the
 problems plauging us is right before us, but we choose to ignore it.




 Jim

re Note 833.28 by CSLALL::HENDERSON:

>  I can't be more specific...I do not want to see a "to whom it may concern"
>  prayer.  Unfortunately, the horse is quite a ways out of the barn now, likely
>  never to return.  The plan to remove God from public schools has been successu-
>  ful and is now proceeding to the remainder of society...the answer to the
>  problems plauging us is right before us, but we choose to ignore it.

        I think that all this talk about prayer in public schools and
        its effect upon society is silly.

        If, as implied above, God were still in the remainder of
        society the presence or absence of a minute's prayer once a
        day in public schools would have little effect one way or
        another.

        This is a rallying cry of a political movement, just like
        "mandatory sentencing" and "ban handguns".  It works to rally
        people precisely because it is simple and its relationship to
        real problems is superficially plausible.  Such rallying
        cries rarely convey deep truth, however; very often they
        hinder the search for truth.

        Yes, society is in trouble, and society has lost its
        grounding in morality and non-materialistic values.  But why
        waste your breath and energy on things of merely symbolic
        value, when there are so many other things that could be done
        to directly attack the problem?

        Bob

                                    
    I agree, Bob.
    
    The rallying cry - put back prayer in schools.
    
    Well, OK, *what* prayer, then, I ask?  Let's get more specific 
    here.
    
    But then the discussion turns into a 'well, I don't really know,
    and the plan to remove God from public schools has been successful
    ....etc' - more of yet another 'blaming the liberals' stance, and
    the circular reasoning continues.
    
    And so it goes.  
    
    Cindy

 If prayer were to be put back in schools, what prayer would you
 advocate?

    If I could be convinced that prayer in public school would actually
    improve society, I might be persuaded to favor reinstating it.  So far,
    no one has said anything beyond the notion that prayer in school is
    good because praying is a good thing.
    
    I suspect also, that if prayer was reinstituted in schools, the
    fundamentalists would be hopping mad because the prayer may not
    address "the God of the Bible," and may even address the Divine in
    (horror of horrors!) the feminine gender.
    
    Grace and peace,
    Richard
    

 I guess I'm guilty of thinking that the prayers would be sent to a God
 who longs to hear them and be involved in our lives and that prayer, coupled
 with the working of the Word of God and the Holy Spirit could make a
 difference in society.  But first we have to settle who's God, ensuring
 that we are not participating in the Patriarchichal, heterosexist, homophobic
 fundamentalist, conservative blah blah blah idea of God, then we have to 
 settle exactly what to say in the prayer, ensuring we are not offending 
 anyone, then we have to decide in which gender to address God, etc...



 I'll just keep praying and telling folks about Jesus, thank you.




 Jim

                                                       
    I already suggested the Gayatri mantra, Jim.  It is the oldest prayer
    mantra known to humankind.  
    
    I'm waiting to hear your suggestion though, since you're the one who
    thinks it's a good idea.   So set aside all your blah blah blah
    anti-liberal 'settle who's God' comments for a few minutes, assume 
    that it would be possible, and reply accordingly.
    
    Cindy

    RE: Note 833.33 by CSLALL::HENDERSON

    > I guess I'm guilty of thinking that the prayers would be sent to a God
    > who longs to hear them and be involved in our lives and that prayer,
    > coupled with the working of the Word of God and the Holy Spirit could
    > make a difference in society. 

    This can easily be done at home, before the child goes to school. It is
    often done by faithful children before (and during) any test, quiz or
    exam.

    School prayer, is nothing more than a mindless, heartless chant
    performed by children who's thoughts are elsewhere. Although it gives
    proponents of school prayer a warm and fuzzy feeling to see all the
    good children "praying", I doubt this coerced worship is anything that
    God longs for.

    	Eric     

re: Note 833.22 by Jim "Acts 4:12" 

>     Well, it sure would be a start.   God did say that if we would 
>     humble ourselves and pray and seek His face, he would heal our land

Somehow I think that if there were manditory prayer in school, 
the majority of students would be very far from humble.

When I was in grade school we had to say the Pledge of Allegiance 
every morning.  I had the words memorized and recited them by rote.

I think requiring prayer in schools is an untenable path to faith.

Peace,

Jim

                                                       

>    I'm waiting to hear your suggestion though, since you're the one who
>    thinks it's a good idea.   So set aside all your blah blah blah
>    anti-liberal 'settle who's God' comments for a few minutes, assume 
>    that it would be possible, and reply accordingly.
    
 

   I have no desire to see a generic repeat day after day prayer, which I 
   believe is what you may be asking for.  I couple my desire for prayer
   in school with a desire to see this country turning back to God, which
   I recognize is unlikely to happen.  Were that to happen, I would think
   a daily prayer would include words of thanksgiving, praise, petitions for
   teachers, leaders, our country and for His guidance in our lives.


   Please note, that I consider it unlikely to happen.




 Jim

The question of returning prayer to school may not be the same as the reason 
it was there to begin with.

In 1962-1963, Madelyn Murray O'Hare, a professed atheist, challenged and 
prevailed against the government's right to force her child to participate in 
corporate prayer.  It is interesting that that same son is now a christian, and
pro-school-prayer.

In 1963, a survey showed that roughly two thirds of Americans believed that the 
Bible was THE Word of God.  Not a partial revelation of, or contains, but is 
the Word of God.  Conversely, a recent survey indicated that the proportions 
have reversed.  Only one third of Americans believe that the Bible is the Word 
of God.  The conclusion is that we are living in a Post-Christian America.  The
argument continues that by removing prayer and the Bible from school, along 
with other rulings, we have removed the only standard by which morality can be 
measured.  This has created relativistic morality, i.e. if it benefits me it 
must be right.  A recent college survey showed that, for a majority of those 
surveyed, the only standard of ethical behavior in business was not getting 
caught.

My own conclusion is that school prayer was a natural expression of a Christian 
nation.  The value of corporate prayer in school, today, could only be to get
the name of God back into the minds and on the lips of the children.  God
condemned, in Isaiah 28, Israel for honoring Him with their lips and yet their
hearts were turned from Him.  In my mind the issue is one of allowing prayer
and Bible reading in school.  I believe the pendulum has swung too far to the
negative extreme.  Christian students have to fight the teachers and school
administration to be allowed to read the Bible and pray on school property
before and after school, and during free periods.

The First Amendment prohibits the government from establishing a state religion
but it also prohibits the government from impeding the free expression of 
religion.

    Kent

    
    However, the Christians have been successful in, I believe, the state
    of Arizona, where mentioning and doing the practices of meditation and
    visualization are not allowed.  (I read this only recently somewhere, 
    but can't find the reference - can someone verify?)          
    
    And down in the Bible Belt of this country, a good friend of mine had
    to go to court to fight the fundamentalist Christians to have the
    practice of yoga allowed in the town she lived in.  This was near
    Atlanta, Georgia.
    
    Cindy

    As for what prayer, years ago my father was national chaplain of the
    American Legion. During that year he developed a non denominational
    prayer with consultation with a number of clerics, including various
    Christian and Jewish clergy, that seemed pretty good. It was put on
    book covers and distributed nationally. I wish I still had a copy.
    Perhaps I'll see if my father does when he gets back from vacation.

    			Alfred

    The extreme to which I was refering was that of not allowing the free
    expression of religion.  If you, or anyone else, wants to practice
    meditation and visualization that is a constitutionally protected
    right.  I do have a problem with repackaging religious practice and
    selling it as a problem solving tool.  I am refering to a program
    called PUMSY:In Pursuit of Excellence and programs like it.  In this
    program the child is taught, through a dragon called Pumsy, that there
    is within each of us a muddy mind and a Clear Mind.  The Clear Mind is
    described as a separate entity with which the child needs to
    communicate.  The Clear Mind "is always close to you, and it will never
    leave you".  The Clear Mind is ascribed attributes which appear to give
    it divine power.
    
    Kent
    

    In Britain, assemblies/prayers are still required in schools by
    law.
    At the primary school I attended, there were two assemblies for the
    infant (5-7 years) and junior (7-11) departments and one main assembly
    on Fridays for the whole school. It was very like a service with
    prayers and hymns. On those days that we weren't in assembly, we would
    have a class assembly at the beginning of the day. At the end of the
    day, we always finished with a prayer. Although there were different
    religions and denominations at the school, the assemblies were
    anglican-biased. This was a state school, not a church school.
    I don't know anyone who objected to this - in fact we looked forward
    to singing our favourite hymns: Onward Christian Soldiers for the boys
    and O Jesus I have promised for the girls, for example.
    
    At secondary school (11-18), for the first two years, we had an
    assembly every day, with the whole school stood in the assembly hall.
    After my second year, this changed to a seated assembly for two Years
    (grades?) at a time throughout the week. This change was brought about
    because I attended a girls school and some of us (mainly me, actually!)
    couldn't stand for that period of time without collapsing. I well
    remember sitting in the reception area with my skirt smeared with dust,
    my blouse and tie undone and the smelling salts bottle under my nose!
    
    The assemblies were Christian-biased, but there were other religions
    present. Anyone who objected from a religious point of view brought a
    note from their parents and permission was given to miss the service
    part of the assembly and attend only the notices at the end. I don't
    know anyone who did this, although there were Sikh and Muslim girls in
    my form. One of my friends was/is an atheist and she simply remained
    silent throughout the hymns and Lord's Prayer.
    I left school 10 years ago, but my younger sister left last year and
    tells me that it's still the same now.
    
    I know that at the college she attends on day-release, they have rooms
    set aside for Muslim prayers. I think they also have a Christian Union.
                                                               
    We also have compulsory Religious Education lessons, which I think is a
    good thing. If nothing else, it provides a good background to other
    lessons such as Art History, music, history etc. It may also be the
    only time when children can actually learn about religions.
                                                               

    	Re: -1 ODONNELLJ
    
    	I left school in Engalnd more than 40 years ago and see that it
    	has not changed much.
    
    	Perhaps the biggest change is in the *mix*. Apart from Christians
    	You had Muslims and Sikhs: we had Jews.  I cannot recall that any
    	one set themselves apart from the assembly prayers.  Nice to see
    	that there is some stability in this turbulent world.
    
    	Greetings, Derek.
     

    I agree with you. Unfortunately, we are beginning to see a change in
    this stability. The Education Secretary was on the news two days ago
    reminding schools of their legal requirement to hold assemblies and RE
    lessons. There is a growing opinion that we should not force children
    to pray to a God of a different religion. In fact, they have never been
    forced to do anything of the kind.
    
    The Muslim and Sikh children at my school attended a Christian-biased
    assembly. They had the option of withdrawing from these if they or
    their parents wished. None that I know did so. It makes me wonder who
    ARE these people who are objecting?

    Perhaps what needs to be looked at is why Muslim and Sikh children and 
    there parents do not request them excluded from the assembly.  What
    consequences would these parents worry about?
    
    Does England still have an official State religion?
    
    Patricia

    	Hi Particia!
    
    	Does England still have an official State religion?
    
    	A tough one to answer, but I guess the bottom line is "yes".
    
    	The monarch (QE II) is the "official" head of the Church of Engalnd
    	which was founded by Henry VIII.  The monarch's role is becoming
    	increasingl nominal with time. Witness, the divorces and separations
    	of recent years in the royal household which, until fairly recently
    	would have caused serious constitutional waves (notwithstanding
    	Henry VIII's motives for the foundation), now only cause a ripple
    	in the press.
    
    	Also, the Archbishop of Canterbury represents the Church of England
    	in the upper chamber - House of Lords - of parliament. The CofE is
    	the only church thus represented.  Although he never held a veto,
    	his voice in the Lords carried - in earlier days - considerable
    	weight.  Nowadays, he has about as much impact on the laws as I
    	have in my discussions with Collis.  :-)
    
    	Greetings, Derek.

    As most of the staff knew that my atheist friend refused to sing hymns
    or pray at the assemblies and took no action, I doubt that any 
    consequences should be feared by Sikh and Muslim parents. I'm sure that
    there MUST have been those who did not attend for religious reasons, I
    just didn't know of any personally. I suppose they just don't see such a 
    big deal about it. That was certainly the opinion of another of my friends,
    a Sikh girl. Her parents were pretty strict, but she said that she had no 
    intention of being converted to Christianity and still remained true to 
    her religion. Her parents knew this and were happy with it. She liked the 
    hymns, but they were just songs to her.
    I remember having a discussion one lunch time with her and another Sikh
    girl, whose parents weren't so strict, about our different religions and
    beliefs. I had a hard time understanding some of their beliefs, but
    they were pretty incredulous about the Star of Bethlehem and the Virgin
    Birth, too!

        
    >	Also, the Archbishop of Canterbury represents the Church of England
    >	in the upper chamber - House of Lords - of parliament. The CofE is
    >	the only church thus represented.  Although he never held a veto,

    I thought I read recently that a Chief Rabbi was given a seat in the
    House of Lords?

    			Alfred

    Not to my knowledge, although I must admit I don't follow politics very
    closely. If he was, then I don't think it would be in the capacity of a
    Rabbi. 

    I think it was *because* he was a Rabbi that he was there. I'll
    try and find a reference.
    
    		Alfred

Derek, the following is incorrect:

>  The monarch (QE II) is the "official" head of the Church of Engalnd
>  which was founded by Henry VIII.

The Church of England was founded by Christ, and was brought to England by
missionaries a thousand years before Henry VIII.  Henry did not found a new
Church; for political reasons he split several dioceses of the Holy Catholic
Church from papal administrative control.  He changed no doctrine, and even
obtained papal approval for the appointment of Cranmer as Archbishop of
Canterbury.

The Head of the Church is Christ.  The Law of Supremacy states that the
British monarch is "supreme governor on earth of the Church of England,
in so far as God's law doth allow."

The Church of England still does not recognize divorce, but rather only
annulment, which is what Henry sought, and which would have been granted if
Henry had not needed an annulment of his marriage to Catherine of Aragon,
Emperor Charles V's niece, at a time when the Emperor was holding the Pope
in prison, and at a time when the Emperor knew that his niece's failure to
produce an heir would cause England to pass into the control of continental
monarchies.

Recently, a member of the royal family remarried.  She was unable to do so
in England, and had to go to Scotland, where she by law is Presbyterian.

Almost all the bishops of the CofE have seats in the Lords.  The entire
House of Lords has very little influence on British politics, as has been
the case for some time, as spoofed in several Gilbert & Sullivan plays from
the late 1800s, most notably "Iolanthe".  "When Wellington smashed Bonaparte,
as every child can tell, The House of Peers, throughout the war, did nothing
in particular, and did it very well. ... And while the House of Peers withholds
its legislative hand, And noble statesmen do not itch To interfere with matters
which they do not understand..."

/john

    RE: .51
    
    Isn't there a little bit of tainted history their concerning some
    problem with male heirs?
    Your history brushed over the real story.
    
    Marc H.

    The point is that prayer in public schools in England supports the
    religion of the State.  Are proponents of prayer in schools in the
    United States advocating the establishment of a state religion?
    
    Can prayer in school in fact do anything else but advocate an
    officially sanctioned set of beliefs?
    
    Patricia 

    .53
    
    I thought my school when they were forced by law to implement NO PRAYER
    handled the situation well, by offering a MOMENT OF SILENCE... that way
    all beliefs could in fact pray without any specific agenda being
    pushed.
    
    While I don't necessarily agree with all faiths, I certainly would
    support a MOMENT OF SILENCE in schools.
    
    

>    Isn't there a little bit of tainted history their concerning some
>    problem with male heirs?

That was what I was talking about when I mentioned that the reason that
Catherine of Aragon had to be done away with was that otherwise, the
throne of England would have passed to a continental monarch.

Henry had made a convincing scriptural argument that the marriage was
invalid (in fact, he had earlier obtained a papal dispensation to even
permit the marriage to his deceased brother's wife), but Catherine's
uncle, Charles V, the Holy Roman Emperor, was holding the pope in prison
and would not permit him to annul the marriage.  Charles wanted the throne
of England in his family.  In addition, the pope was not very inclined
to rule a marriage invalid which had been permitted by dispensation
of his predecessor.

Eventually, Henry's third wife's son, Edward, succeeded to the throne.
He, too, died without a male heir, and parliament passed the law of
succession which permitted the throne to pass to the eldest daughter
if there was no eldest son.  The throne passed to Mary, daughter of
Catherine of Aragon (during which time the Church of England returned
to the control of the papacy), and from her to Elizabeth, daughter of
Henry's second wife (at which time local administrative control of the
Church was reasserted).

/john

    
    Re.54
    
    I'd support a moment of silence too, Nancy.
    
    Cindy

I don't necessarily object to the idea of a moment of silence, but what would it
accomplish?

Steve

    It would allow for some quiet time to prepare for the day.  Too often
    our children [including mine] are rushed out the door to meet schedules
    of the early morn kind and most kids get of bed about 30 minutes before
    they need to leave [according my Sunday School Class of about 60
    enrolled 48 admitted to this timeframe], therefore the quiet time
    allows for their stomachs to settle, their energies to become focused
    and oftimes if it is actual prayer used, the worries to be give over to
    God.
    
    Nancy

    Quakers would certainly favor a moment of silence.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

Silence can be very powerful.  I once chaired a meeting about silence.
I  brought a timer, set it for 5 minutes, and bid the group to be completely 
silent for those 5 minutes.  Afterwards people shared their experience of the 
silence.  It is something we have very little of these days, where every 
moment must be filled with *something*.  My mother ALWAYS had a radio on when 
I was a child.  She didn't listen to it, it was just there to remove the 
silence.

Peace,

Jim

    .51
    
    Derek means that the monarch is the head of the Church of England
    hierarchy in the same way that the Pope is the head of the Catholic
    hierarchy. Of course, Christ is the supreme head of both Churches.
                                                          
    Remarriage in the Church of England depends on the church, I believe.
    Some will marry divorced couples, others will agree to bless the rings
    after a civil ceremony.
                         
    Also, although the House of Lords SEEMS not to have a great deal of
    influence, they possess quite a bit if they want to wield it.
    Legislation must usually be passed by the House of Lords after it has
    been approved by the House of Commons. They go into a lot of the
    details which the House of Commons does not have time to do and only
    this week a proposal for changes in Home Office procedures (policing
    etc) was criticized by the House of Lords and the Home Secretary is
    rethinking his plans.

    My son starts most school days with a visit to the school's chapel.
    There he spends a few minutes in prayer and quiet thought. He says
    that he finds it a big help during the day. Of course during exam
    weeks he has more company there. :-)
    
    			Alfred

>    Derek means that the monarch is the head of the Church of England
>    hierarchy in the same way that the Pope is the head of the Catholic
>    hierarchy.

But that, too, is not true.

/john

	I used to be part of the Church of England. The monarch is viewed
	as the head of the church, but I'm not sure what authority that
	entails.

	Lately, the media has been placing close attention to the 
	discussion amongst the Church's members as to the acceptability 
	of Prince Charles being the next head. Having broken a vow they
	are questioning whether or not any future vow would be of any
	value.

	Phil.

>	I used to be part of the Church of England. The monarch is viewed
>	as the head of the church, but I'm not sure what authority that
>	entails.

As I stated, the Act of Supremacy specifically uses the words "supreme governor
on earth in so far as God's law doth allow".

Governor, not head.

/john

    When I was in elementary school, the day was started with a Bible
    reading.  This was Boston Public Schools.  The teachers always choose
    the Old Testament, usually Psalms.  I guess this must have been maybe 1
    & 2 grade because I don't remember it much.  I do not advocate it now
    because I think there is much more diversity in our schools today and
    much more of an "Agenda" toward conversion than I recall from that
    practice.
    
    I do support a moment of silence probably before each class.  I learned
    in my Corinthian class where for the first time since early elementary
    school that I enjoyed starting the class with a prayer.
    
    I would support  truly multi cultural prayer.  A moment of silience to
    center oneself or a quick breathing exercise would probably be the most
    practical solution though.
    
    Patricia  

	To be pedantic she is called the head of the church. When the
	media or goverment refers to the head of the Church of England,
	the majority of people here in the UK picture the Queen and
	not Jesus Christ. If this is a false picture then the church
	should be correcting it. 

	Phil.

A moment of silence before each class makes more sense to me than a moment of
silence at the beginning of the day, to help focus on the upcoming lesson,
perhaps. 

I'm curious, is there any such thing as a truly multi-cultural prayer that would
not offend someone. I don't believe so, the first four definitions of the word
talk about an entreaty to God, only the last definition contains a possibly
non-religious meaning. So right off the bat you've offended atheists.

Steve

    Multi cultural prayer would have to be a different prayer each day. 
    There are quite a few good secular humanist meditations that could be
    used.
    
    As long as Christian parents are comfortable with their children also
    reciting, humanist meditations, Budhist meditions, Pagan Invocations,
    then Atheists, Budhists, and Pagans should not be concern with
    the occasional Christian meditation.
    
    Any UU church could provide ample multicultural material.
    
    
    
    Patricia

The Senate just voted to cut off aid to states which prohibit voluntary
prayer in schools.

    I read last week about a primary school in Reading, UK (5-11 year olds)
    whose assemblies and prayers are inter-cultural (if that is the correct
    world!). Katesgrove Primary school has a great number of non-christian
    children, including some Chinese children who are Taoists. The prayers
    are designed to be used for all religions. I could type in the article
    if anyone is interested. I'm not sure about the other primaries, though
    - it's some time since I attended one!

    
    Yes, please do - I'd be very interested in reading the article.  Thanks!
                     
    Cindy

    .63
    
    I meant in a hierarchical sense. As the Catholic church has the Pope at
    the top of its hierarchy, so the Church of England has the Monarch.
    
    By the way, I understood the decision of the Princess Royal to have her
    wedding at Balmoral to be her own. She is said to have wanted privacy for 
    her wedding - something she certainly would not have got in London.
    I assume you were referring to the re-marriage of Princess Anne?

>    I meant in a hierarchical sense. As the Catholic church has the Pope at
>    the top of its hierarchy, so the Church of England has the Monarch.

I think this is a misunderstanding of the role of the British Monarch in the
Church of England.  Certainly the British Monarch cannot ordain priests and
bishops.  The British Monarch does approve bishops intended to be ordained
(within England only, and not in Scotland, Wales, Canada, the U.S., or other
parts of the Anglican Communion), but at the time the Act of Supremacy was
passed, it was customary throughout Europe for Kings and Princes to select
bishops, and the Pope typically was only involved in major sees.  The Act of
Supremacy says that the Pope has no jurisdiction within England.

>    By the way, I understood the decision of the Princess Royal to have her
>    wedding at Balmoral to be her own. She is said to have wanted privacy for 
>    her wedding - something she certainly would not have got in London.
>    I assume you were referring to the re-marriage of Princess Anne?

Yes, I was referring to that.  There were two parts to her decision to go to
Balmoral.  Not just privacy, but also the fact that the Church of England
would not have performed the wedding, preventing the wedding from taking
place within England.

/john

    Many apologies for not entering the article as promised yesterday - I'm
    afraid I forgot it (I have a memory like a sieve). However, I HAVE
    remembered today, so here it is. I should point out that Katesgrove is
    the exception rather than the rule in that most of the children are NOT
    Christian and so emphasis is not so much on Christianity as it might be
    in another school. The article is by Mark Whitehead and was printed in
    the Reading Evening Post on Friday.
    
    DIFFERENT WAYS OF WORSHIP
    
    The theme was peace. As children in the year 6 class wrote their
    letters, - most of them decorated with flowers and patterns - their
    aims were high.
    "I'm writing to President Clinton," said 11-year-old Faraz Beg. 
    "I'm asking him to put an end to war because a lot of people are
    dying."
    It may seem a long way from the traditional RE lesson many of us
    remember but this is all part of the way religion is taught at
    Katesgrove Primary School in Reading and is typical of the approach of
    many schools today.
    Headmistress Sylvia Warner said, "We don't sing hymns and I don't tell
    them to put their hands together to pray.
    "We sing songs from different cultures and they worship in their own
    way. We talk about God, but we say he has many different names."
    There are two assemblies a week when all 300 children at Katesgrove, a
    traditional red-brick school just outside Reading Town centre, gather
    together in the hall for "collective worship".
    The assemblies are not based on any one religion. Around 50 oer cent of
    the children come from Muslim homes and there are others from Hindu,
    Jewish and Buddhist backgrounds. 
    There is also a small number of Chinese children who follow the Taoist
    religion. Promoting one religion at the expense of others might
    justifiaby be seen as unfair.
    The school celebrates the Harvest Festival and Easter and puts on a
    traditional Nativity play every Christmas.
    But the children also celebrate the Jewish New Year and the Muslim
    festival Eid.
    They learn about several of the major world religions including
    Christianity.
    Yet the new guidelines issued by the Government-appointed School
    Curriculum and Assessment Authority have been interpreted by many as a
    move towards increasing the time spent in classrooms and assemblies on
    Christianity.
    It is an unwelcome piece of advice for Christine Kilou, Year 6 teacher
    and RE specialist at the school. She converted to Islam while at
    University several years ago. 
    She said "I'm against anything that reduces the amount of time children
    have to learn about other religions. It's important that they have the
    opportunity to learn about all of them.
    "Christianity is the faith system for the majority of people in
    Britain, so it's important that it should be taught.
    "But if most of the time is spent on Christianity, it could appear that
    it is thought to be better than other religions.
    "Children must never be made to feel inferior. That would be crushing."
    
    New Syllabus follows in the next note:-

    The guidelines, issuesd by the government-appointed School Curriculum
    and Assessment Authority, set out model syllabuses for religious
    education.
    They contain a compulsory section on Christianity and a section on each
    of the other main religions in Britain.
    The guidelines have been attacked from both sides (perhaps they've got
    the balance right, then :-) Some say they favour Christianity too much,
    some say that too much time is allotted to other religions.
    Christian teachings children are expected to know include:
    At 7 years: the idea of God as the Creator ad Jesus as a historical
    figure; the basics of Christian values.
    At 11 years: the context of Jesus' life; the basic structure of the
    church and figures in its history.
    At 14 years: the nature of God, key events in the life of Jesus and the
    foundations of the Christian way of life.
    At 16 years: different interpretations of scripture, tradition, and
    human experience; the purpose of worship and prayer.
    
    Reported comments follow in the next note:-

    Parent Mohammed Masud, who has three children at Katesgrove school,
    backed the teachers' views.
    He said "There are all sorts of different religions in the school.
    The children should learn about all of them.
    "My children are Muslim. The way I see it, they should learn about
    Christianity, but they should be told about their own religion as
    well."
    Pupil Andrew Parker, 11, who is Jewish, agreed.
    He said "We should never make fun of other people's religion because
    they are important to them. We should have a bit of each religion, not
    lots of Christianity and little bits of everything else."
    
    Headteachers have reacted coolly to the new guidelines.
    Roberta Stewart, secretary of the Berkshire branch of the National
    Association of Head Teachers, who teaches at Alfred Sutton Primary
    School in Reading, said most schools teach several religions. 
    She said "It's the only way to build up tolerance. The quarrel is when
    they try to say one religion, Christianity, should be dominant.
    "Schools walk a tightrope between fulfilling the requirements of the
    law and alienating many of their pupils and staff."
    Bob Tutton, headmaster of Springfield primary school, is on the
    Standing Advisory committee on Religious Education, which decides on
    the RE curriculum in Berkshire's schools.
    He feels that the guidelines are a step backwards. 
    He said "I'm against teaching RE as a separate subject. It should be
    taught through topics.
    "If you're teaching about the Roman invasion of Britain, you can talk
    about the gods they worshipped. If you're teaching about the 19th
    century, you can talk about the free thinkers and the humanists.
    "Religion shouldn't be put into a box on it's own."
    
    Unfortunately the article did not include comments and opinions from
    the secondary schools (11-18 year olds). 

    
    Thanks for entering that, Julie.  I enjoyed reading it.
    
    Cindy

    I agree.  Good information
    
    Patricia

    
    Ahhhh!!!!!  I just can't take this separation of church and state 
    garbage which goes back to the 1960s.  Please prepare yourself to
    be innundated with historical facts of early America.  How about
    some facts from the actual timeframe we're talking about???  I've
    arranged a bunch if information together.  I'm sorry if it doesn't
    flow or doesn't all apply to this exact topic, but I'll follow-up
    with more of where I stand later.  I broke this into 2 notes.
    
    SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE:
    
    The 1st Amendment was negotiated from June 7th to Sept. 25, 1789.
    During that same time the Northwest Ordinance was passed into law
    by George Washington on Aug 7, 1789 after being passed by the house
    on July 17, 1789 and by the Senate on August 4, 1789.  The third
    article of this law states that a territory must teach religion (
    that religion clearly defined as Christianity) and morality in order
    to become a state.  How is it possible that the 1st Amendment meant
    separation of church and state in its current context when at the same
    time our founding fathers were passing a law stating that religion
    must be taught to even receive statehood?
    
    This is evidenced in the constitutions of the states that joined
    the U.S. under that law.
        
    OHIO 1802 Constitution states "Religion, morality, and knowledge,
    being essentially necessary to good government and the happiness of
    mankind, schools and the means of instruction shall forever be
    encouraged by legislative provision."
    
    MISSISSIPPI 1817 Constitution states "Religion, morality, and
    knowledge, being necssary to good government, the preservation of
    liberty, and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of
    education shall forever be encouraged in this state.
    
    NEBRASKA 1875 Constitution states "Religion, morality, and knowledge,
    however, being essential to good government, it shall be the duty of
    the legislature to pass suitable laws to encourage schools and the
    means of instruction."
    
    How about our colleges?
    HARVARD:
    
    Harvard required reading:  The Federalist Papers, which explains the
    purpose of the constitution.  Students often complain to the professors
    about the difficulty of the text.  The professors often respond with
    "Well that's because it wasn't written to your level.  It was written
    for upstate NY farmers.  Maybe one day you'll attain their level of
    knowledge."  The point being that education had much higher standards
    during our founding years.
    
    Harvards requirements for entry in 1636 stated: "Let every student be
    plainly instructed and consider well the main end of his life and
    studies is to know God and Jesus Christ and therefore to lay Christ in
    the bottom as the ONLY foundation of all sound knowledge and learning."
    Also, "Everyone shall so exercise himself in reading the Scriptures
    twice a day that he shall be ready to give an account of his
    proficiency therein."
    
    Harvard grads:  John and Samuel Adams, John Hancock
       
    YALE:
    
    Yale's requirements for entry in 1701 stated: "Seeing that God is the
    giver of all wisdom every scholar, beside private or secret prayer
    shall be present morning and evening at public prayer."
    
    Yale grads:  William Johnson, William Livingston, Noah Webster
    
    
    PRINCETON:
    
    Princeton's founding statement of their college in 1746 was: "Cursed
    be all learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."
    
    Princeton grads:  87 founding fathers including James Madison and
    Benjamin Rush.
    
    Colleges founded on Christianity:   106 of the first 108, 123 of the
    first 126.
       
    LAWS:
    
    In 1642 a Connecticut and Massachusetts law was passed because the
    settlers were concerned about the civil atrocities which occurred in
    Europe under the banner of Christianity.  It was there beliefs that
    this events happened because the common man was not given access to
    the Word of God so they didn't know that their leaders were in
    disagreement with the Bible.  The law was called the "Old Deluder
    Satan Act" and reads as follows "It being one chief project of that
    old deluder Satan, to keep men from the knowledge of the Scriptures as
    in former times..."  The law went on to establish that when a town
    grew to 50 families, a teacher must be hired and when it grew to 100
    families, a school must be built.  The Bible was very much a part
    of their curriculum.
    
    In 1809 Edward Kendall of Great Britain published a book of his works
    regarding a trip in which he came to check out America as many were
    doing and specifically their education system.  He documented this
    Connecticut law:  "This court observing, that not withstanding the
    former orders made for the education of children and servants, there
    are many person unable to read the English tongue, and thereby
    are many person unable to read the English tongue, and thereby
    incapable to read the Holy Word of God or the good laws of this
    colony..."  There concern about this was because they would be unable
    to keep their leaders in check.
    

    
    What did teachers think when churches relinquished elementary
    education to the government in 1892.  The Educational Teachers Union
    published a book that year stating "Whether this was wise or not it is
    not our purpose to discuss, futher than to remark if the study of the
    Bible is to be excluded from all state schools, if the inculcation
    of the principles of Christianity is to have no place in the daily
    program, if the worship of God is to from no part of the general
    exercises of these public elementary schools, the good of the state
    would be better served by restoring all schools to church control."
    
    JOHN WITHERSPOON, a patriot, member of congress, signer of the
    Declaration of Independence, an educator, president of Princeton
    which turned out 87 founding fathers including:
     
            1 president
            1 vice-president
            3 Supreme Court Justices
           10 Cabinet Members
           12 Governors
           21 Senators
           39 Congressman
    
    all under the Princeton founding statement already documented stated
    "What follows from this?  That he is the best friend to American
    liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and
    undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness
    to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind.  Whoever is an
    avowed enemy of God, I scruple (hestitate) not in calling him an
    enemy to his country."
    
    BENJAMIN RUSH, patriot, signer of the Declaration of Independence,
    and mot distinguished physician of his time who founded the
    Pennsylvania Hospital stated the following in defense of the use of
    the Bible in schools:  "I assume the 5 following presuppositions:
    1) That Christianity is the only true and perfect religion; and that,
       in proportion as mankind adopts its principles and obeys its
       precepts, they will be wise and happy.
    2) That a better knowledge of this religion is to be acquired by
       reading the Bible, than in any other way.
    3) That the Bible contains more knowledge necessary to man in his
       present state, than any other book in the world.
    4) That knowledge is the most durable and religious instruction
       most useful, when imparted in early life.
    5) That the Bible, when not read in schools, is very seldom read in
       any subsequent period of life."
        
    He followed with 15 arguments and closed his statement with:  "In
    contemplating the political institutions of the U.S., I lament that
    we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes, and take so
    little pains to prevent them.  We profess to be Republicans (the
    form of government, not the party) and yet we neglect the only means
    of establishing and perpetuating our republican form of government,
    that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of
    Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all
    others favors this equality among mankind, the respect for just laws,
    and all those sober and frugal virtues which constitute the soul of
    republicanism."
    
      

Re: .80 Jill

>    How is it possible that the 1st Amendment meant
>    separation of church and state in its current context when at the same
>    time our founding fathers were passing a law stating that religion
>    must be taught to even receive statehood?
    
That's an interesting question.  In opinion such a law would clearly
violate the 1st Amendment.  After the Bill of Rights was ratified, was the
law declared unconstitutional?

Personally I wouldn't want to be governed under the Constitution if it
were interpreted strictly according to the original intent of the people
who wrote it.  After all, the original Constitution expressly allowed
slavery.  Even after the passage of the 14th Amendment, blacks and women
were openly discriminated against.

I believe that the Constitution needs to be interpreted in the light of
present day standards of justice, not original intent.

				-- Bob

Note 1013.69
    
>    My sister-in-law was the
>    valedictorian at her graduation last year and was strictly told by her
>    principal not to open with a prayer for fear of litigation.  This
>    happens at schools all over the country.  Those that have the courage
>    to go through with it lose their jobs.  It wasn't that long ago where
>    every graduation opened with a guest minister praying.  Now it's rare.

Indeed, prayer at a graduation ceremony in a public school would be the
governmental imposition of a particular religion (unless, of course, the
ceremony includes -- and gives equal emphasis and priority to -- a Moslem
prayer, a Buddhist prayer, a Native American prayer, perhaps a humanist credo,
and so on).  Students *are* permitted to gather and pray and study the Bible
on public school grounds on a voluntary basis.  Graduation ceremonies are
considered an integral function of school, not voluntary.

>    There's a case going on right now in St. Louis with a student who was
>    placed in detention for praying over his food before eating his lunch.  
>    It's a shame when a child can't even say grace over his own meal.

The latest I've heard is that this episode has turned out to be a false one.
The child was given detention for a minor behavioral infraction that had nothing
to do with the child praying.
    
Shalom,
Richard

    I think prayer is appropriate in the sense that you are asking God's
    blessings on the graduates as they head off into the adult world
    (college, employment, etc.).
    
    I haven't heard what you have on the St. Louis boy.  All I know is that
    it is going to trial.
    
    Mike

    .84
    
    So since the state is not to supposed to endorse a particular religion,
    it would be alright with you if the graduation prayer at a public
    high school was offerred by a Pagan priestess or a Wiccan?
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

 Rather than shutting up Christians who want an opening prayer at a
 graduation, etc..why not issue earplugs to those non-Christians who
 don't want to hear?




Jim

    .86
    
    Now there's a democratic idea!  And issue the Christians earplugs
    when it rotates to the Wiccans' year to pray at graduation.
    
    Richard
    

RE:      <<< Note 833.87 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Okeley-dokeley, Neighbor!" >>>

       
   > Now there's a democratic idea!  And issue the Christians earplugs
   > when it rotates to the Wiccans' year to pray at graduation.
    
    

     they'd probably save a lot of money on earplugs that year..



Jim    

    I wouldn't care who said the prayer as long as it was to the one true
    God, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.  

    .89
    
    But don't you see?  That would be state-sponsored imposition of a
    particular religion.  The state can't say that a Moslem or a Pagan
    must to pray to the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and, oh yeah, Mike
    Heiser, anymore than the state can say that you must pray to Astarte.
    
    Richard
    

    
    Dear Rev. Heiser,
    
    	Please end your graduation prayer this year with the affirmation
    "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet."
    
    					Warmest regards,
    
    					Your Public School
    

    Well then maybe we should take the state out of our wonderful public
    school system since they've influenced thousands to home school due to
    their find performance.

	Mike, many would suffer without the state due to the money that's
needed. OR, are you one who believes the money should be there, but the state
should have no say about how it's spent?


Glen

    To tell you the truth, I'm not sure.  I haven't really thought much
    about it.

.84 FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything"

    I think prayer is appropriate in the sense that you are asking God's
    blessings on the graduates as they head off into the adult world
    (college, employment, etc.).

It is appropriate that each ask for God's blessing, as they choose, in their own
way. It is not appropriate that the state mandate this for them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.86 CSLALL::HENDERSON "Learning to lean"
.89 FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything"

 Rather than shutting up Christians who want an opening prayer at a
 graduation, etc..why not issue earplugs to those non-Christians who
 don't want to hear?

    I wouldn't care who said the prayer as long as it was to the one true
    God, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.  


I can only hope you're both joking...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.92 FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything"

    Well then maybe we should take the state out of our wonderful public
    school system since they've influenced thousands to home school due to
    their find performance.

Performance is one thing. Surely you are not claiming that the only reasons our
schools have declined is that a morning and graduation prayer are missing? Or
maybe you are.

I find this note scary...

Steve

| <<< Note 833.94 by FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>

| To tell you the truth, I'm not sure.  I haven't really thought much about it.


	Then what did you mean by .92?


Glen

    Glen and Steve, look at a graph sometime of all the social issues that
    have plagued this country over the last 50 years or so.  Look at the
    marked exponential increase in volume in violent crime, teenage
    pregnancies, and STD's starting in 1962.
    
    Then ask yourself what is significant about that year (other than it
    was the year I was born ;-)).
    
    Mike

Of course, the state does not need to force Moslems to pray to the God
of Abraham, since they do anyway.

Moslems, Jews, and Christians can all affirm together:

		There is no God but Allah!

		Amen.

/john

    .98  True.  But it gets a little messy, does it not, when the God of
    Isaac and Jacob are entered into the mix?
    
    Salaam,
    Richard
    

Note 833.92

>   due to
>   their find performance.

I can certainly see where there's cause for concern.

However, I fail to see how reinstating Christian prayers into schools
will improve scholastic performance.  In fact, that's why I started
this topic in the first place.

Saying Johnny can't spell because prayers were eliminated from public
schools just isn't going to buy it.

Shalom,
Richard

>    .98  True.  But it gets a little messy, does it not, when the God of
>    Isaac and Jacob are entered into the mix?

It does not.

No one claims that the God of Isaac and Jacob is not the God of Abraham.

/john

RE:<<< Note 833.95 by TINCUP::BITTROLFF "Creator of Buzzword Compliant Systems" >>>

.86 CSLALL::HENDERSON "Learning to lean"


>> Rather than shutting up Christians who want an opening prayer at a
>> graduation, etc..why not issue earplugs to those non-Christians who
>> don't want to hear?

  

>I can only hope you're both joking...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


 I can't comment for Mr. Heiser (though I suspect that he was not joking), but
 I'll admit to being only half serious.




 Jim

            re  Note 833.97 by FRETZ::HEISER

    Actually the Supreme Court ruling came on June 17 *1963*. And that was
    to prohibit the *requirement* of Bible readings in public schools.

    Guess what else happened in 1963... Hint: November 22. 

    1963 is also the year that President Kennedy pushed for wide ranging
    civil rights legislation. Maybe we should blame integration and the
    mixing of the races for all the ills that befall us.

    A pet peeve of mine is playing fast and loose with superlatives and
    exaggerations.

    >  Look at the marked exponential increase in volume in violent
    crime...

    I looked it up. The increases have been linear, not exponential. I'll
    post a pointer to a MS Excel spreadsheet with graph for 1973 - 1992 if
    anyone is interested.

Note 833.104

>   I'll
>   post a pointer to a MS Excel spreadsheet with graph for 1973 - 1992 if
>   anyone is interested.

What?  And spoil perfectly good emotional tinder?  ;-}

Shalom,
Richard

    
    School prayer is bigger than anyone of us can imagine. I say this
    with respect to everyone in this notes file. This issue is not
    school prayer (anyone can pray in school). The issue is allowing the
    government to "make a law(s) letting us pray". Once this has been done
    they can change or ammend the law to suite the government or a
    churches need.
    This is why I am a "seperation of church and state" believer also. 
    No one can tell me how to pray, or who to pray to. This country was
    founded on freedom of religion with no King and with no Bishop (Pope).
    When we begin to allow the government, to tell us how and who to pray
    to, then this begins the fulfulmemt of "One World Order" What's next??
    
    

    Does anybody believe the prosperity of a nation is maintained by a
    nation conforming to Christian principles?  We know that Rome, Babylon,
    Egypt et al did prosper but they eventually fell.
    
    This is where I see the validity of school prayer.  I believe it shows
    our youth that a diety overseeing a nation is important to their role
    models, their parents.  I believe it can only help, it cannot hurt.  I
    believe it is a step toward promoting the peace that we crave so much.
    
    -Jack

    I'd like a pointer to that Excel data.  I've only had heard about it
    previously in several radio programs (by several different speakers) and 
    would like to actually see it myself.  Given that, it is still obvious 
    that something caused it because of the dramatic increases since 1962.  
    
    Johnny can still spell (most of the time), but there are other things
    he does that model citizens don't.
    
    BTW - when Carman was last in town, he showed some of the graphs from
    1962 and 1973 on the projection TVs.  He's collecting signatures for a
    prayer petition and will shortly toss 1M signatures on the President's
    desk and exclaim, "America wants prayer back in schools!"
    
    Mike

.97 FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything"
 Title:  1973 shows similar increases in poverty issues

Sorry Mike, it just isn't that simple. I would not argue against a decline in
morality. I would argue that religion is the only way to attain morality. And
blaming it on the cessation of required Bible readings is really reaching. 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.102 CSLALL::HENDERSON "Learning to lean"
 
 I'll admit to being only half serious.

Good, then I feel half better :^)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.107 AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!"

    This is where I see the validity of school prayer.  I believe it shows
    our youth that a diety overseeing a nation is important to their role
    models, their parents.  I believe it can only help, it cannot hurt.  I
    believe it is a step toward promoting the peace that we crave so much.

That is very nice. I believe you are wrong. I believe it can hurt. I believe
that this job is the job of the parents, not of the state. I believe that you
cannot find a prayer that won't insult a significant minority. All I ask is that
you keep the government out of religion, and religion out of the government.
Other than the government, you may practice your religion whenever and however
you wish. Why is this so hard for you to accept?

Steve

    If religion is the only way to attain morality, than we wouldn't have
    people like Bakker, Swaggart, and all the Catholic officials we read
    about in the news.
    
    Even monks living in isolation over the years have written about the
    battles of morality they have had to deal with and these folks were in
    COMPLETE ISOLATION!
    
    Even Christians struggling with besetting sins or even sin in general
    are still living under the religion of the Old Covenant (The Law).
    
    The only way to attain morality is through the New Covenant - the
    Gospel of Jesus Christ.
    
    Mike

    -.109
    
    Agreed, it should not be the possition(sp) of the state to give us the
    right to pray. We "do" have the right to pray in school. Why does one
    want to pray in school? For strength, help, to praise Him? Prayer is
    something personal between God and oneself. We do not need an audience
    to pray to. Prayer is not a social event. 
    
    Bruce

re Note 833.110 by FRETZ::HEISER:

        Mike,

        I'm not sure what your reference to "all the Catholic
        officials we read about in the news" is supposed to mean.

        Why are you singling-out Catholic officials as a group?

        Bob

.110 FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything"

    The only way to attain morality is through the New Covenant - the
    Gospel of Jesus Christ.

More arrogance (isn't arrogance a sin?), and wrong, to boot. So someone like
Ghandi was immoral? Of course, if you play the definition game and redefine
morality (noun 1. The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good
conduct.) to mean 'be a Christian', you would be right. Are there any standard
definitions that you keep?

Steve

>        I'm not sure what your reference to "all the Catholic
>        officials we read about in the news" is supposed to mean.
>
>        Why are you singling-out Catholic officials as a group?
    
    Not at all, Bob.  Swaggart and Bakker aren't Catholics.  It is in
    reference to some of the priests we sometimes see on the daily news who
    have had a problem with molestation or some other sexual sin.
    
    Mike

>More arrogance (isn't arrogance a sin?), and wrong, to boot. So someone like
>Ghandi was immoral? Of course, if you play the definition game and redefine
>morality (noun 1. The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good
>conduct.) to mean 'be a Christian', you would be right. Are there any standard
>definitions that you keep?
    
    Actually I mistakenly substituted holy with morality, and meant it in
    that context.  Many people are moral, few are holy.  Many try to be
    moral (like the names previously mentioned), and aren't able to
    overcome the flesh.  I don't know much about Ghandi's personal life,
    but I'd be shocked if he was perfect.  
    
    Mike

.115 FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything"

    Actually I mistakenly substituted holy with morality, and meant it in
    that context. 

O.K., holy I won't argue. I withdraw my righteous indignation :^)

Steve

	Mike, are you REALLY tying no school prayer with the ills of the world?
I really hope not, as that seems like a far far far stretch of reality. If
school prayer was really the cause, I guess people's home lives had nothing to
do with anything. 



Glen

    Glen, consider the alternatives.  I'm sure there was a large portion of 
    kids that were never exposed to the things of the Lord outside of the 
    classroom. If those kids didn't, they didn't have any Godly influence in 
    their lives.  Even if they weren't believers, it was a reminder of good
    conscience and how to be a good citizen.  At times of trouble, they
    remembered prayer and made petitions to God.  What little contact
    children had back then certainly reflected in lower social ills. 
    Nobody has proved it didn't have an impact.  The empirical data says it 
    did. If we were experimenting, we would introduce it again to confirm our
    hypothesis.  I dare Congress to try it and prove me right. ;-)
    
    As I said before, many people think being American and being a
    Christian are synonymous.  It isn't that easy and home lives where
    families pray together aren't very common, even within the church.  
    
    Finally Glen, I know you reject it, but God's Word is clear in Psalms
    about the nations who reject Him and those who bless Him.  References
    can be provided.
    
    Mike

    I find the lack of forsight in the power of prayer amazing in this
    conference.
    
    Steve, I find it equally arrogant that the establishment is forcing me
    to throw money into the public schools.  I find it arrogant that above
    that, I have to shell out money if I choose to send my child to a
    Christian school.  I hear alot of talk about freedom of choice in this
    country.  To me, this is a form of extortion.  If you didn't hold a gun
    to my head, I would be glad to leave you alone and send my son to a
    school where they do open in prayer...they do have worship circle where
    they learn from God's word...where they do pray before snack time.  You
    may find this offensive but I find the secular humanism taught in the
    public schools equally offensive.  
    
    Tell you what, you stop pushing your morality on me...and I'll stop
    pushing my morality on you!
    
    Cordially,
    
    -Jack

    
    I can't make my Excel database publicly available, so I've
    inserted the information here. You can extract the text and import
    it into Excel on your own, of course. Plot the "Violent Crime" and
    "Linear Crime" together. You'll see that the "Violent Crime" line
    snakes back and forth over the "Linear Crime" line.
    -------------------------------------

Year	Population  	Violent Crime	Linear Crime	Percent Change

1973	209,851,000	875,910		  875,910	*****
1974	211,392,000	974,720		  914,275	11.28%
1975	213,124,000	1,039,710	  954,320	6.67%
1976	214,659,000	1,004,210	  996,119	-3.41%
1977	216,332,000	1,029,580	1,039,749	2.53%
1978	218,059,000	1,085,550	1,085,290	5.44%
1979	220,099,000	1,208,030	1,132,826	11.28%
1980	225,349,000	1,344,520	1,182,444	11.30%
1981	229,146,000	1,361,820	1,234,235	1.29%
1982	231,534,000	1,322,390	1,288,294	-2.90%
1983	233,981,000	1,258,090	1,344,722	-4.86%
1984	236,158,000	1,273,280	1,403,620	1.21%
1985	238,740,000	1,328,800	1,465,099	4.36%
1986	241,077,000	1,489,170	1,529,270	12.07%
1987	243,400,000	1,484,000	1,596,252	-0.35%
1988	245,807,000	1,566,220	1,666,168	5.54%
1989	248,239,000	1,646,040	1,739,146	5.10%
1990	248,710,000	1,820,130	1,815,321	10.58%
1991	252,177,000	1,911,770	1,894,832	5.03%
1992	255,082,000	1,932,270	1,977,826	1.07%
                                                                      
    Figures for "Population" and "Violent Crime" from The World
    Almanac, 1994. "Linear Crime" is the projected crime rate based on
    an average increase of 4.38% per year. "Percent Change" is the
    increase in "Violent Crime" from the previous year.

    The increase in violent crime has far out paced increases in the
    population. It is a bad, nasty, frightening trend. One thing the
    increase in violent crime is not, however, is exponential. Now I'm
    not a statistician, but unless there is a staticalese way of
    describing an exponential function without the use of exponents --
    like seasonally adjusting temperatures to prove that winter is
    "warmer" than summer -- I just don't see an exponential increase.

	Eric

        re .119

    So your argument is the Government should establish a religion and
    administer the catechism through the public schools. Cool.
    
    > Tell you what, you stop pushing your morality on me...and I'll
    > stop pushing my morality on you!
    
    Morality has nothing to do with it... theology does.
    
    Eric
                                      

 The frightening thing, which TO ME is a result of the lessening of the
 importance of God in society, is the statement that frequently accompanies
 the reports of the arrest of suspects.."the suspects, aged 14 and 19 showed
 no remorse" or "the suspects, aged 15 and 16" laughed as the prosecutor
 described the crime.


 There is very little consience among the perpetrators, it seems to me.  No
 feeling of guilt (doesn't modern psychology discourage guilt?), no concern
 for the victim.  To me, this is indicative of a very serious problem in
 society, that one day could make one of us victims.



Jim

    re: .122
    
    Well put.

Note 833.122

> There is very little consience among the perpetrators, it seems to me.  No
> feeling of guilt (doesn't modern psychology discourage guilt?), no concern
> for the victim.  To me, this is indicative of a very serious problem in
> society, that one day could make one of us victims.

Demonstrate for me how putting (apparently Christian fundamentalist) prayer
in public schools will cure this situation and you might get my support.

Part of the current conservative agenda in the U.S. is to dump more money
into the military and to put prayer back in school.  I think society might
be better off if we put more money into schools and prayed for the Pentagon.
Maybe schools should have "black budgets" while the Pentagon is forced to have
bake sales and raffles to raise the money for another bomber. :-)

Shalom,
Richard

| <<< Note 833.118 by FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>


| Glen, consider the alternatives. I'm sure there was a large portion of kids 
| that were never exposed to the things of the Lord outside of the classroom. If
| those kids didn't, they didn't have any Godly influence in their lives.  

	This is where we should stop. If the kids did not have any Godly
influence in their lives, it would be because that is how their parents wanted
it. With the many religions that are present in this country, God is not the
only influence that was around. To put the blame of what has happened on school
prayer being missed in the classrooms still a stretch at best. Is a few moments
of prayer in a classroom going to prevent what happened? If that were the case,
why can't the kids pray at any time of the day? Why do we need a specific time
for this to happen? If parents wanted prayer so bad, they could have tought
their kids to open a dialougue with God at any point in time. Could it be that
the problems have more to do with the home life and not with prayer in schools? 

| Even if they weren't believers, it was a reminder of good conscience and how 
| to be a good citizen.  

	Mike, do you really think this? The teacher could talk about what it is
to be a good citizen, have a good conscience, without ever bringing religion
into the picture. And do you think those kids would pray because they wanted to
in high school? If it were a set prayer that had to be said, no. If it were
something people would do in silence, how many kids do you think did this? ONLY
those who have a religious background to begin with. Seems like we're back to
the family, not prayer.

| At times of trouble, they remembered prayer and made petitions to God.  

	Yeah, I can see Asians, Indians, Musleums praying to the God of the
Bible... NOT! Mike, an unbeliever could be ANYONE. It could be they have no
religion, could be a different religion. Praying to God for these people isn't
going to promote anything, it will just push one idea of many ONLY.

| Nobody has proved it didn't have an impact.  The empirical data says it
| did. If we were experimenting, we would introduce it again to confirm our
| hypothesis.  I dare Congress to try it and prove me right. ;-)

	<grin>.... I don't think it would work Mike. All because of the reasons
I mentioned.

| Finally Glen, I know you reject it, but God's Word is clear in Psalms about 
| the nations who reject Him and those who bless Him.  

	Oh... has He written anything about today???? 


Glen

| <<< Note 833.119 by AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!" >>>


| Steve, I find it equally arrogant that the establishment is forcing me to 
| throw money into the public schools. I find it arrogant that above that, I 
| have to shell out money if I choose to send my child to a Christian school.  

	I find it arrogant of the federal government that the poor have to pay 
taxes, but the churches don't. 

| To me, this is a form of extortion. If you didn't hold a gun to my head, I 
| would be glad to leave you alone and send my son to a school where they do 
| open in prayer...they do have worship circle where they learn from God's word
| where they do pray before snack time.  

	Jack, is there anything that your money goes for that you like? Do you
think everyone would agree that this is good money spent? I'll tell you what,
lets tax the churches, and then use part of that for the deficit, part of it to
fund the tuition of these schools. Oh... but won't the tuitions go up now that
they are taxed......

| Tell you what, you stop pushing your morality on me...and I'll stop
| pushing my morality on you!

	Jack.... I don't think this is possible... heh heh...

	I like those figures on violent crime. (the fact that they were listed,
not that they went up)  What do you think the causes of this were? Say your top
3 maybe?


Glen

RE:      <<< Note 833.124 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Okeley-dokeley, Neighbor!" >>>


>> There is very little consience among the perpetrators, it seems to me.  No
>> feeling of guilt (doesn't modern psychology discourage guilt?), no concern
>> for the victim.  To me, this is indicative of a very serious problem in
>> society, that one day could make one of us victims.

>Demonstrate for me how putting (apparently Christian fundamentalist) prayer
>in public schools will cure this situation and you might get my support.


 To be honest, I'm not 100% sure I favor prayer in public schools..I certainly
 am in favor of prayer.  Somehow, with the downplaying of the role of God in
 our society we have lost accountability, guilt and the sense of "wrong", not
 only in public schools, but its fed by the entertainment industry.  Its a 
 general turning from God, though I'm sure there are those who don't agree.
 There is no "sin" in society today..there is little "guilt".

 Prayer does make one accountable, which is one reason I favor it.  I don't
 agree with forcing one to pray, but somehow I think the accountability issue,
 getting kids to focus on a God who loves them, but also has clear, defined
 rights and wrongs may also has it positive points.  I'm just not sure the
 public schools can handle it properly.






>be better off if we put more money into schools and prayed for the Pentagon.
>Maybe schools should have "black budgets" while the Pentagon is forced to have
>bake sales and raffles to raise the money for another bomber. :-)



 A clever slogan, but I don't think it will work


 Jim

    Eric, thanks for the data.  XWAY will easily convert that into a DECalc
    grid.  Do you have anything before 1973?  I'd like to see, say, 1950 to
    1973 as well.
    
    Mike

>	This is where we should stop. If the kids did not have any Godly
>influence in their lives, it would be because that is how their parents wanted
>it. With the many religions that are present in this country, God is not the
    
    Glen, Jim has already told you from firsthand experience that most
    parents could care less.  We also see a lot of parents sending their
    kids to church just to get them out of their hair for a few hours. 
    These people actually perceive the church as a free babysitter.  The
    ironic thing is that the kids go home and teach the gospel to their
    families.  Puts a whole new twist to "Out of the mouth of babes..." and
    "A child shall lead them..." ;-)
    
>prayer being missed in the classrooms still a stretch at best. Is a few moments
>of prayer in a classroom going to prevent what happened? 
    
    It has in the past.  We should learn from history.
                                                          
    >                                                     If that were the case,
>why can't the kids pray at any time of the day? Why do we need a specific time
>for this to happen? 
    
    Because it is a learning experience for all.  Not all children are able
    to attend Sunday school.  This way children learn about their spiritual
    side and exercise it.  Jesus also said why Himself:
    
Matthew 18:19
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any
thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in
heaven.

    >                  If parents wanted prayer so bad, they could have tought
>their kids to open a dialougue with God at any point in time. Could it be that
>the problems have more to do with the home life and not with prayer in schools? 
    
    Actually they're related.  The first generation to grow up without
    school prayer are now parents.  Not a very good crop either, and
    they're producing more bad fruit in society.  They won't teach what they 
    don't know.
    
>	Mike, do you really think this? The teacher could talk about what it is
>to be a good citizen, have a good conscience, without ever bringing religion
>into the picture. 
    
    Haven't they taken the pledge of allegiance out of school too because
    it mentions God?  Kind of ironic that Congress still says it every
    morning.  They even open with prayer too!  The souls of our children are
    being neglected, while the one who influences evil seems to be having a
    party.
    
>those who have a religious background to begin with. Seems like we're back to
>the family, not prayer.
    
    Obviously, the family isn't interested.
    
>	Yeah, I can see Asians, Indians, Musleums praying to the God of the
>Bible... NOT! Mike, an unbeliever could be ANYONE. It could be they have no
>religion, could be a different religion. Praying to God for these people isn't
>going to promote anything, it will just push one idea of many ONLY.
    
    Don't underestimate the God of the Bible.  The largest orthodox
    Christian church in the world is in Korea with over 100,000 members. 
    They have 20 services every weekend just so they all can attend.  We
    have a Bible College (American Indian Bible College) here in Phoenix that 
    has an enrollment of 95% Native Americans.  God is saving people by the
    thousands in the Hindu and Muslim countries.  The way God is pouring
    out His Spirit in these last days, the majority of unbelievers may end
    up being right in our own country!  What a shame!
    
>	<grin>.... I don't think it would work Mike. All because of the reasons
>I mentioned.
    
    never know unless you try.  God uses the simple things to confound the
    wise.  Our logic is not God's logic.  Many times in my life I've seen
    God move in a way that I've never thought would happen or wouldn't make
    sense.
    
    >	Oh... has He written anything about today???? 
    
    I've posted these before.  This looks like present tense to me:
    
Psalms 33:12
Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen
for his own inheritance.

    God also promised to bless the nations that bless Israel.  This is why
    our leaders should handle dealings with Israel with extreme care.  
    
    When we could be experiencing the blessings of Psalms 33:12 as our
    forefathers did, the generation that has grown up without prayer seems
    content with...
    
Psalms 9:17
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

    Mike

    I'm not Jack, but...
    
>	I find it arrogant of the federal government that the poor have to pay 
>taxes, but the churches don't. 
    
    How poor are you talking about?  The IRS does have poverty levels that
    are immune to taxation.  Government also provides subsidies to less
    fortunate families.
    
>think everyone would agree that this is good money spent? I'll tell you what,
>lets tax the churches, and then use part of that for the deficit, part of it to
>fund the tuition of these schools. Oh... but won't the tuitions go up now that
>they are taxed......
    
    No anyone with introductory macroeconomics under their belt knows that
    you cut taxes to reduce the debt and deficit.  Even Kennedy did this
    and he was a Democrat.  If JFK was alive today, he'd be a Republican.
    
    Mike

re Note 833.130 by FRETZ::HEISER:

>     Haven't they taken the pledge of allegiance out of school too because
>     it mentions God?  Kind of ironic that Congress still says it every
>     morning.  They even open with prayer too!  The souls of our children are
>     being neglected, while the one who influences evil seems to be having a
>     party.
  
        Given the typical conservative's view of the Congress of the
        past 40 years, the fact that Congress has a time of prayer
        would seem to be an argument *against* prayer as a formality
        having any beneficial effect.

        (On the other hand, members of congress do seem to be richer
        than us average folks, so perhaps prayer formalities do have
        *some* effect!)

        Bob

    Glen:
    
    The church is not recognized by the federal government as a moneymaking
    entity.  The church is made up of taxpaying individuals.  Secondly, 
    and I'm surprised you have a hard time with this.  If you decided to
    start a church ministering to the homosexual community, Newt Gingrich
    et al would be able to dictate policy on you as a church.  Surely you
    must see the relinquishment of your religious freedoms here.
    
    All this for alittle more money that would go toward fetal tissue
    research, abortion, both NEA's, and other projects that are abominable
    to even the most liberal churches.  
    
    The founding fathers didn't seem to have a problem with church and
    state issues....why do you?
    
    -Jack

re Note 833.133 by AIMHI::JMARTIN:

>     The founding fathers didn't seem to have a problem with church and
>     state issues....why do you?
  
        Obviously, since we have the first amendment, the founding
        fathers *did* have a problem with church and state issues!

        Bob

         re: .127

    1) JFK assassination, Viet Nam, Chicago '68, Kent State, Watergate all
       culminating in a breakdown of public trust in the government and
       society at all levels.

    2) Single parent households and latch key kids. The lack of value we
       place on developing and nurturing children is astounding. We even argue
       over funding inoculation and health programs for our country's
       children. We will let them starve while we argue over how they
       should pray in school.

    3) The society is becoming more factionalized and with that more
       hateful. Look at the venom in the mid-term elections, and politics in
       general. Whether it's a character assassination to gain power in
       congress, or a shooting in the projects to get power in the
       neighborhood, it all begins to look the same...

         3a) Victimization. Everyone sees themselves as a victimized
         minority. Minorities are oppressed the white power structure,
         white men are discriminated against by minority special interests,
         criminals are victims of "dysfunctional" families (and therefore
         not culpable?), and of course, self professed Bible believing
         Christians say they are victimized by everybody. 

      

         re: .129

    Sorry, I don't have any pre-1973 stat's handy. I'd like to see the
    trend from 1940 on actually. I'll see what I can dig up at the library,
    but I'm not making any promises. 
    
    Eric

 Re .127




 I'd recommend a book by John MacCarthur called "The Vanishing Conscience".
 Of course, Dr. MacCarthur is a conservative, fundamentalist, so many will
 reject his premise. 




Jim

| <<< Note 833.130 by FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>


| Glen, Jim has already told you from firsthand experience that most parents 
| could care less. We also see a lot of parents sending their kids to church 
| just to get them out of their hair for a few hours. These people actually 
| perceive the church as a free babysitter. The ironic thing is that the kids go
| home and teach the gospel to their families.  

	Mike, what % of the kids do you feel go home and teach the gospel to
their families? I'm curious. 

	Now, what does going to church and prayer in school have to do with
anything? ZERO. A kid is not going to pray in school unless their families are
religious. Prayer in school will NOT make kids stop having sex, stop with
std's, etc. You made the correlation, but you haven't proven it as of yet.

| >prayer being missed in the classrooms still a stretch at best. Is a few moments
| >of prayer in a classroom going to prevent what happened?

| It has in the past.  We should learn from history.

	Mike, don't you see that it had more to do with the families than a few
seconds of prayer in school? A few seconds of prayer from SOME of the kids will
not stop all that has happened. The families doing their job will stop a lot of
it.

| >                                                     If that were the case,
| >why can't the kids pray at any time of the day? Why do we need a specific time
| >for this to happen?

| Because it is a learning experience for all.  Not all children are able
| to attend Sunday school.  This way children learn about their spiritual
| side and exercise it.  

	Mike, then you are forcing prayer onto everyone, regardless of their
religious beliefs. Is this correct?

| >                  If parents wanted prayer so bad, they could have tought
| >their kids to open a dialougue with God at any point in time. Could it be that
| >the problems have more to do with the home life and not with prayer in schools?

| Actually they're related.  The first generation to grow up without school 
| prayer are now parents.  Not a very good crop either, and they're producing 
| more bad fruit in society.  They won't teach what they don't know.

	Are you blaming lack of school prayer for the ills of todays parents?
Come on Mike, you can't be really saying that, can you? FAMILIES are what made
or broke the kids. A few seconds of forced prayer each day is going to have a
worse effect than people coming out and praying on their own. Jesus says He
won't force anyone to come to Him. Aren't you doing just that? 

| >those who have a religious background to begin with. Seems like we're back to
| >the family, not prayer.

| Obviously, the family isn't interested.

	Or maybe the family is of a different RELIGION. But it's ok to not
worry about their religion, right? As long as you can push yours.

| Don't underestimate the God of the Bible.  

	I don't underestimate God at all. But this country is founded on all
religions being welcomed. If all are welcomed, then you can't push one over
another.

	Mike, do you think if the families were taught love, to love, that
things might actually get better? 



Glen

| <<< Note 833.133 by AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!" >>>


| The church is not recognized by the federal government as a moneymaking
| entity. The church is made up of taxpaying individuals.  

	Jack, the taxpaying individuals doesn't wash here. Regardless of
whether the government recognizes the church as a money making entity, you know
that many are, and many make big $$$$. Big tax free $$$$$. If we set up the
church like the tax payers, some won't have to pay, some will. Depends on how
big their empire... er their congregation is. 

| If you decided to start a church ministering to the homosexual community, Newt
| Gingrich et al would be able to dictate policy on you as a church.  Surely you
| must see the relinquishment of your religious freedoms here.

	There would probably be some differences, but that's life. As it is
they still have many laws that they do have to obey. Same as us.

| The founding fathers didn't seem to have a problem with church and state 
| issues....why do you?

	Oh... I don't. I'm just pointing out to you that whining about where
your money goes is useless. Go out and do something about it if you want
change, not just sit back and complain about it.

Glen

    	'"Prayer" in school' will not directly help anything.
    
    	I'll separate that one line for those of you who want to cut
    	it as a single sound-bite and ignore what I'll say to qualify
    	it.
    
    	First of all I put "prayer" in quotes because I personally
    	do not believe that an organized prayer should be instituted.
    	I support a moment of silence for that one specific item.
    
    	And I believe that the 'moment of silence' in and of itself 
    	will not directly solve anything either.
    
    	Also I see 'prayer in school' as being more than just a prayer
    	or moment of silence.  To me 'prayer in school' is a concept
    	that is the direct opposite of the current policy of the
    	suppression of overt religious expression.  We as a society
    	have gone from the first amendment meaning "the government
    	will not force a particular religion upon anyone" (my paraphrase)
    	to "the government will suppress any religious expression if
    	it is somehow connected to the government, the charges of the
    	government, or the support of the government."  So 'prayer
    	in school' would allow for a moment of silence.  It would allow
    	for the Torah to be an item in the school library.  It would
    	allow for the Code of Hammurabi to be posted in the school
    	hallways.  It would allow a school to erect a crech display at
    	Christmastime if the directors wanted to do that.
    
    	So if this won't help anything directly, why bother?  Because
    	'prayer in school' would only be a part of a greater tolerance
    	of religious expression.  This tolerance would be a reversal of
    	society's current disdain for things that are religious.  It
    	would symbolize as a first step a reversal of society's embrace
    	of immorality.
    
    	To me it is a mere symbolic statement (or silence, if you insist)
    	but hopefully the beginning of the end of our societal decline.

>	Mike, what % of the kids do you feel go home and teach the gospel to
>their families? I'm curious. 
    
    I haven't really thought about it.
    
>religious. Prayer in school will NOT make kids stop having sex, stop with
>std's, etc. You made the correlation, but you haven't proven it as of yet.
    
    The data and correlation are there.  1940-1994.  Look where the trends 
    take a drastic turn.  They weren't doing things as they are today. 
    Unlike today, there was prayer in school and the family unit was
    stronger.  The two are integrated.
    
>	Or maybe the family is of a different RELIGION. But it's ok to not
>worry about their religion, right? As long as you can push yours.
    
    If they were a different religion, they wouldn't be sending them to
    church's like mine and Jim's.
    
>	I don't underestimate God at all. But this country is founded on all
>religions being welcomed. If all are welcomed, then you can't push one over
>another.
    
    BZZT!  Wrong answer.  This country was founded on the God of the Bible
    and freedom to worship.  All races were welcome.
    
>	Mike, do you think if the families were taught love, to love, that
>things might actually get better? 
    
    Love is from God.  No matter where you turn you can't escape getting
    back to God.  The human heart is sinful, we need God to truly love.  
    
    Man's idea of love is teaching sex education in schools - which has
    made promiscuity worse.  In L.A. 3 years ago, they did a study that
    showed sex education was making our youth more promiscuous so then they
    decided to introduce masturbation courses called "outercourse."  Some
    people just don't get it.
    
    Mike

| <<< Note 833.141 by FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>

| >	Mike, what % of the kids do you feel go home and teach the gospel to
| >their families? I'm curious.

| I haven't really thought about it.

	Then how can you say this has any signifigance to anything with the
family life?

| >religious. Prayer in school will NOT make kids stop having sex, stop with
| >std's, etc. You made the correlation, but you haven't proven it as of yet.

| The data and correlation are there.  1940-1994.  Look where the trends take a 
| drastic turn. They weren't doing things as they are today.

	Mike, look at the things they were doing in 1940. Were they doing those
things 50 years earlier? 

| Unlike today, there was prayer in school and the family unit was stronger. The
| two are integrated.

	I disagree. If a family is NOT religious, then school prayer is
useless. How many 1-6th graders do you think will understand the meaning
behind school prayer? How many do you feel will take it seriously? Apply
it to High School, and the numbers go down. There is only one way to get
people to turn to God, and school prayer is not one of them. The family
is the key element. In todays world those who will pray will do so at any
time, not at a set time. People will ask for forgiveness at anytime, not 
at a set time. Remember when you could go to church and know the entire
ceremony by heart? Know exactly what was going to come next, when they were
going to ring their little bells, etc? For Catholics you have a certain day
when you go off to the church to tell of your sins. Do you really need
someone else to go through, or can you just talk directly to Him? What it
all comes down to is how well the family actually does their job. If the
family unit is a good one, then the child has a greater chance of making the
right choices. If it isn't a good one, then the child is going to have a much
harder time in most cases. Specifying a time to pray in school, where not
everyone is religious, or even the same religion, isn't going to solve a thing.

| >	Or maybe the family is of a different RELIGION. But it's ok to not
| >worry about their religion, right? As long as you can push yours.

| If they were a different religion, they wouldn't be sending them to church's 
| like mine and Jim's.

	I was referring to prayer in schools Mike. But what you said above made
me think. I know, that's always dangerous, but what it made me think about is
if they would not go to your church because their beliefs are different than
yours, why would you set time aside in a school to pray to a God they don't
believe in? That pushes us back to my statement about pushing your own religion

| >	Mike, do you think if the families were taught love, to love, that
| >things might actually get better?

| Love is from God. No matter where you turn you can't escape getting back to 
| God.  

	Please add in, "if your religion is Christianity", or instead of the
word, "God", you put, "<insert diety>".

| Man's idea of love is teaching sex education in schools - which has made 
| promiscuity worse.  

	Pressing for abstinance makes absolute sense. Thinking that everyone
will listen isn't dealing with reality. Sex education does have a purpose.
Families stressing abstinance to their kids would have a greater effect than
the school. Again, we're back to the family unit, which is the real problem.

| In L.A. 3 years ago, they did a study that showed sex education was making our
| youth more promiscuous so then they decided to introduce masturbation courses 
| called "outercourse."  

	Mike, who did the study?


Glen

>	Then how can you say this has any signifigance to anything with the
>family life?
    
    Because I've seen many cases where the kids self-esteem and outlook on life
    has improved.  Sometimes even the parents are saved because they notice
    something real has changed their children.  Eventually they become a
    better family through the hand of God.

>	Mike, look at the things they were doing in 1940. Were they doing those
>things 50 years earlier? 
    
    Probably not.  The ways of sin are subtle.

>	I disagree. If a family is NOT religious, then school prayer is
>useless. How many 1-6th graders do you think will understand the meaning
>behind school prayer? How many do you feel will take it seriously? Apply
    
    All my children are 4th grade and lower and they very well know the
    power of prayer.  Never underestimate the understanding of a child.
    
>it to High School, and the numbers go down. There is only one way to get
>people to turn to God, and school prayer is not one of them. The family
    
    Obviously we won't get prayer back in school as it used to be.  What
    I'd at least like to see is a time for a moment of silence so that each
    student can pray to whoever they want in silence.  I think all children
    today need an awareness of their spiritual nature.  When spirituality
    becomes a common topic in school again, it will open up the door for
    God's people to witness even more.
    
>is the key element. In todays world those who will pray will do so at any
>time, not at a set time. 
    
    I don't believe so.  I know many people who have a set time and place to go
    to their heavenly Father in prayer.  I spend time with my Father every
    morning after having my devotions.  As with any other relationship, you
    have to keep the lines of communication open and active to have that
    relationship grow.
    
    >                         People will ask for forgiveness at anytime, not 
>at a set time. 
    
    Sometimes, sometimes not.
    
    >Remember when you could go to church and know the entire
>ceremony by heart? Know exactly what was going to come next, when they were
>going to ring their little bells, etc? For Catholics you have a certain day
>when you go off to the church to tell of your sins. 
    
    I'm not Catholic, nor do I attend a liturgical church.  The church's I
    have worshiped at in life do not really have set ceremonies.  I only
    attended Catholic H.S. for the quality academics and the masses were
    optional for me as a Protestant.  However, I did attend some of the
    masses out of curiousity.  Having said that, there are specifics in
    confession that I don't agree with and I'll leave it at that.
    
>someone else to go through, or can you just talk directly to Him? What it
    
    I have a direct line to my heavenly Father.  No busy signals, no call
    waiting, open lines 24 hours a day.
    
>all comes down to is how well the family actually does their job. If the
>family unit is a good one, then the child has a greater chance of making the
>right choices. If it isn't a good one, then the child is going to have a much
>harder time in most cases. Specifying a time to pray in school, where not
>everyone is religious, or even the same religion, isn't going to solve a thing.
    
    In the latter child's case, a time of silent meditation will have them
    asking questions and wanting to get involved.  Those that do sincerely 
    pray will be a witness to them and they will ask for them to share the
    peace they have in their life.  God will guide these children.

>	I was referring to prayer in schools Mike. But what you said above made
>me think. I know, that's always dangerous, but what it made me think about is
>if they would not go to your church because their beliefs are different than
>yours, why would you set time aside in a school to pray to a God they don't
>believe in? That pushes us back to my statement about pushing your own religion
    
    Not under the method I have in mind.  I think this is the only form
    that will be accepted, if at all.

>	Mike, who did the study?
    
    Public school system of Orange County.  They wanted to see their
    effectiveness in sex education.  Obviously they are failing and tried
    to band-aid the problem with more perversity.
    
    Mike

.140

I would not oppose a moment of silence.

In fact, I think it might have the effect of bringing some children to
the realization that not all stimulation needs to come from some external
source (which I suspect may be one of the factors contributing to social
decline).

Shalom,
Richard

| <<< Note 833.143 by FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>

| Because I've seen many cases where the kids self-esteem and outlook on life
| has improved. Sometimes even the parents are saved because they notice 
| something real has changed their children. Eventually they become a better 
| family through the hand of God.

	While I do agree that this does happen, you haven't provided how often
it happens, and how applying a few seconds to prayer in school will somehow
save the world. Please tie it all in Mike.

| >	Mike, look at the things they were doing in 1940. Were they doing those
| >things 50 years earlier?

| Probably not.  The ways of sin are subtle.

	But they had prayer in schools then, right? Doesn't this show you that
school prayer isn't the answer, but strong family ties IS? You base your facts
on school prayer not being around for the mess of today. But it was around 50
years before the 40's, and things were worse in the 40's than they were 50
years before that. Between progress, family breakdowns, people wanting to take
the easy way out, have everything to do with what has happened to the world 
today. Prayer in schools has zilch. And that was proven by the differences 
between the 40's, and 50 years before that, when both had school prayer.

| >	I disagree. If a family is NOT religious, then school prayer is
| >useless. How many 1-6th graders do you think will understand the meaning
| >behind school prayer? How many do you feel will take it seriously? Apply

| All my children are 4th grade and lower and they very well know the power of 
| prayer.  Never underestimate the understanding of a child.

	Mike, do you even read what I write? I left it in the message for you
to see. And thanks to you, it has been proven correct. You are a religious man,
and I said UNLESS you are from a religious family, prayer in school is useless.
Now of course you didn't answer the questions I asked, but that could be that
you don't know the answers. 

| >it to High School, and the numbers go down. There is only one way to get
| >people to turn to God, and school prayer is not one of them. The family

| Obviously we won't get prayer back in school as it used to be. What I'd at 
| least like to see is a time for a moment of silence so that each student can 
| pray to whoever they want in silence.  

	If it is called a moment of silence, and nothing else, then we are in
agreement. If you call it prayer at all, I disagree. If you wish to pray during
it, fine, go ahead. 

| I think all children today need an awareness of their spiritual nature.  

	You're assuming that all children have a spiritual nature. That's
something that they may find out one day, but school is not the place to learn
about such things. You wish to learn about religions, go to the appropriate
church. UNLESS ALL schools would be willing to teach about EVERY religion that
applies to the various religions of the students that go there. Taught by 
someone IN that religion, not taught by an outsider.

| When spirituality becomes a common topic in school again, it will open up the 
| door for God's people to witness even more.

	Again, you keep giving me the impression you want just Christianity
taught. Is this a correct statement?

| I don't believe so. I know many people who have a set time and place to go
| to their heavenly Father in prayer. 

	Let me clear something up about this. I'm talking about an institution
telling you when to pray, not you making time to talk to Him. 

| >People will ask for forgiveness at anytime, not at a set time.

| Sometimes, sometimes not.

	Could you explain the sometimes not?

| In the latter child's case, a time of silent meditation will have them asking 
| questions and wanting to get involved.  

	Mike, you really don't think the majority of the kids wouldn't ridicule
the ones who do pray? You really think they will just jump on the religion
bandwagon? Without the support of their family, most kids could care less about
religion. 

| Those that do sincerely pray will be a witness to them and they will ask for 
| them to share the peace they have in their life.  

	You really think this will happen Mike? Seriously??? How well do you
think it would go over in the inner cities? I think it would be a bomb.

| >	I was referring to prayer in schools Mike. But what you said above made
| >me think. I know, that's always dangerous, but what it made me think about is
| >if they would not go to your church because their beliefs are different than
| >yours, why would you set time aside in a school to pray to a God they don't
| >believe in? That pushes us back to my statement about pushing your own religion

| Not under the method I have in mind.  I think this is the only form that will 
| be accepted, if at all.

	Mike, could you explain just what your method is? And how it applies to
the above statement that I made?

| >	Mike, who did the study?

| Public school system of Orange County. They wanted to see their effectiveness 
| in sex education.  

	So budgeting their money is not the only thing they are ineffective at,
huh? :-)

Glen

>	While I do agree that this does happen, you haven't provided how often
>it happens, and how applying a few seconds to prayer in school will somehow
>save the world. Please tie it all in Mike.
    
    Tell you want, you fund my study and I'll tie it all in ;-)

>	But they had prayer in schools then, right? Doesn't this show you that
>school prayer isn't the answer, but strong family ties IS? You base your facts
>on school prayer not being around for the mess of today. But it was around 50
>years before the 40's, and things were worse in the 40's than they were 50
>years before that. Between progress, family breakdowns, people wanting to take
>the easy way out, have everything to do with what has happened to the world 
>today. Prayer in schools has zilch. And that was proven by the differences 
>between the 40's, and 50 years before that, when both had school prayer.
    
    No I've said all along that prayer in school and the family unit are
    integrated.  The degradation of the family unit is what led to the
    problems you are talking about.  Eventually it got to a point where we
    kicked God out of school.  The lack of concern by parents that you talk
    about also applies to prayer in school.

>	Mike, do you even read what I write? I left it in the message for you
>to see. And thanks to you, it has been proven correct. You are a religious man,
>and I said UNLESS you are from a religious family, prayer in school is useless.
>Now of course you didn't answer the questions I asked, but that could be that
>you don't know the answers. 
    
    Yes I do know and the same applies for non-religious children.  When my
    boys and I shoot hoops in our driveway with the kids in the
    neighborhood, there our times when someone gets hurt.  I always gather
    my boys together and we pray for them.  Some of the kids from
    non-Christian homes just watch with curiousity the first time they see
    it, but afterwards they expect it to a point where they even suggest it
    before I do.  

>	You're assuming that all children have a spiritual nature. That's
    
    The fingerprint of our Triune God is on mankind in the form of body,
    mind, and spirit.  We were created in His image.  We all have a
    spiritual nature.  Until we come to Christ, we have a longing, an
    emptiness, a void there that only God can fill.  Some try to fill the
    void with drugs, sex, crime, music, sports, wealth, power, etc., but
    it never happens until they receive Jesus Christ.
    
>	Again, you keep giving me the impression you want just Christianity
>taught. Is this a correct statement?
    
    I'm for anything that will promote the spreading of the gospel.  If
    making our children more aware of their spiritual nature through a
    moment of silence will do that, I'm for it.

>| >People will ask for forgiveness at anytime, not at a set time.
>
>| Sometimes, sometimes not.
>
>	Could you explain the sometimes not?
    
    Sure.  Say you just stumbled and committed a besetting sin.  Your guilt
    and grief for offending the Savior and anger for messing up will cause
    you to seek God's forgiveness.  It could happen anywhere, anytime.

>	Mike, you really don't think the majority of the kids wouldn't ridicule
>the ones who do pray? You really think they will just jump on the religion
>bandwagon? Without the support of their family, most kids could care less about
>religion. 
    
    No because everyone will be involved.  Lack of family support is what
    caused this in the first place.  Kids are smart enough to know when
    someone has something better than they do.

>	You really think this will happen Mike? Seriously??? How well do you
>think it would go over in the inner cities? I think it would be a bomb.
    
    The moving of God's Spirit is much stronger in the inner cities than
    anywhere else!  It is there that kids realize that life here isn't what
    it should be and they're looking for a better way.  Our crusades in the
    inner cities are always God's most fruitful ones.

>	Mike, could you explain just what your method is? 
    
    moment of silence, like I said.

    Mike

| <<< Note 833.146 by FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>

| >	While I do agree that this does happen, you haven't provided how often
| >it happens, and how applying a few seconds to prayer in school will somehow
| >save the world. Please tie it all in Mike.

| Tell you want, you fund my study and I'll tie it all in ;-)

	Mike, you stated that school prayer is the cause, as you mentioned the
year it went away, and what has happened since. So if you are using this to
make a point, I assumed that you had some figures to back your claim. You
seemed to relate it to the 40's, when prayer was still strong as your proof,
but that wouldn't really make sense because 50 years before that prayer was
strong, but crime was lower.

| No I've said all along that prayer in school and the family unit are 
| integrated.

	If MOST kids are NOT from a home that is religious, would you then see
that school prayer is a waste of time? The family is where it should take
place, PERIOD. In note .141 you mentioned:

me> Prayer in school will NOT make kids stop having sex, stop with std's, etc. 
me> You made the correlation, but you haven't proven it as of yet.
    
you> The data and correlation are there.  1940-1994.  Look where the trends take
you> a drastic turn. They weren't doing things as they are today. Unlike today, 
you> there was prayer in school and the family unit was stronger. The two are 
you> integrated.

	You said the correlation was there, but never proved anything. How are
the 2 intergrated? Just because they were doing both then? Like I said, in 1900
they were doing both too. But there is a difference in crime between then and
the 40's. Please explain that difference. You'll start to see the real
corelation, and not the one you keep talking about.

| The lack of concern by parents that you talk about also applies to prayer in 
| school.

	Actually, no it doesn't. In an ideal world of yours, everyone would be
Christian, everyone would follow Jesus. Is this correct? For those who wish to
follow Jesus, can the parents still teach them to pray to Him whenever they
want? Mike, Jesus does not have a set time to open dialogue. You can do that
anytime, anywhere. I got the distinct impression by your above wording that if
parents don't want school prayer, that it is due to lack of concern. Is this a
true statement? If so, do you take into consideration the other religions that
are out there, who's families follow? Do they fall into the lack of
consideration catagory?

| Yes I do know and the same applies for non-religious children. When my boys 
| and I shoot hoops in our driveway with the kids in the neighborhood, there our
| times when someone gets hurt. I always gather my boys together and we pray for
| them. Some of the kids from non-Christian homes just watch with curiousity the
| first time they see it, but afterwards they expect it to a point where they 
| even suggest it before I do.

	Mike, how does open prayer over someone equate to prayer in school? Are
you advocating verbal prayer for schools? Also, you are doing exactly what I
was talking about, taking responsibility. Showing your kids what you believe to
be right. For that, I commend you. If your kids go to school, how will they be
perceived if they start praying over someone? What if they were to do that in
an inner city? I know your kids aren't old enough for school yet, but I want
you to really think about it before you answer. 

| >	Again, you keep giving me the impression you want just Christianity
| >taught. Is this a correct statement?

| I'm for anything that will promote the spreading of the gospel. 

	Mike, why can't you just say yes then? To spread the gospel, wouldn't
that have to do with Christianity? 

| >	Mike, you really don't think the majority of the kids wouldn't ridicule
| >the ones who do pray? You really think they will just jump on the religion
| >bandwagon? Without the support of their family, most kids could care less about
| >religion.

| No because everyone will be involved. Lack of family support is what caused 
| this in the first place.  

	EXACTLY on the lack of family support. But you can not say that
everyone will be involved if school prayer is brought back to schools. If
prayer is verbally spoken, for those families who have a different religion, or
aren't religious, will think nothing of it for the most part. Because the
school prayer has done nothing to the family support issues, has done nothing
about the other religions. If it is a moment of silence, then those who are not
religious will just sit there for the most part, and others who have different
religions who are religious will pray to their Gods. You stated you wanted to
push the gospel, so other religions praying to their Gods might not be a good
thing for you. Maybe you could clear that one up for me.

| Kids are smart enough to know when someone has something better than they do.

	Mike, if their families base monetary value on what is better, then
religion won't play into it. If families base looks on what is better, religion
won't play a part. If families base one certain way to be on what is better,
then religion isn't going to play a part. Too many factors to say that they
will feel religion is better for them. It has to be the family.

| The moving of God's Spirit is much stronger in the inner cities than anywhere
| else! It is there that kids realize that life here isn't what it should be 
| and they're looking for a better way. Our crusades in the inner cities are 
| always God's most fruitful ones.

	If that is the case Mike, why do I keep hearing about all these people
dieing from the inner cities. People being beaten because they are different in
the inner cities? Someone dies because they went where they weren't supposed to
go because some gang has imaginary borders? Why do I hear about kids being
caught in the crossfire so much? I hear something almost every single day.
Could it be that possibly, some inner cites aren't NEARLY as bad as others?


Glen

.118, .130, .141 FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything"
 Title:  Blessed is the nation who's God is the Lord

Mike,
.118
So you are advocating a state-sponsored religion (yours, I assume). I can't read
your notes any other way. Exactly what would you mandate, if the choice were
yours?
.130
    Glen, Jim has already told you from firsthand experience that most
    parents could care less.  We also see a lot of parents sending their
    kids to church just to get them out of their hair for a few hours. 

OK, then interest them in religion. But don't try to require it of them.

Actually in one way it might be interesting to see what would happen. The most
vicious religiously based battles I have seen have been between believers with
slightly different beliefs!

    Haven't they taken the pledge of allegiance out of school too because
    it mentions God?  Kind of ironic that Congress still says it every
    morning.  They even open with prayer too!  The souls of our children are
    being neglected, while the one who influences evil seems to be having a
    party.

And we all know how moral Congress is!
.140

    BZZT!  Wrong answer.  This country was founded on the God of the Bible
    and freedom to worship.  All races were welcome.

Sorry Mike, but no matter how hard you try to twist it around the country was
founded on the principle that each could worship as they choose. Most of the
founders may have believed in the God of the Bible, but they were wise enough
not to try to force this kind of deeply individual decision on everyone. Are you?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.119 AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!"

    Steve, I find it equally arrogant that the establishment is forcing me
    to throw money into the public schools.

Something we can agree on! BTW, I see the exemption of religious organizations
from property taxes as sort of the flip side of the same issue.

    Tell you what, you stop pushing your morality on me...and I'll stop
    pushing my morality on you!

In what way have I *ever* tried to push *any* morality on you? (Enquiring minds
want to know :^)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.122 CSLALL::HENDERSON "Learning to lean"

I agree that the lack of remorse is a scary trend. To me, it is a result of the
lessening of importance of people in society, which is a vast oversimplification
of a complex problem.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.125 BIGQ::SILVA "Nobody wants a Charlie in the Box!"

Glen, Well said. I still can't see school prayer as anything other than an
attempt to have the state promote a particular religion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.140 CSC32::J_OPPELT "I'm an orca."

Joe, much to my surprise I agree with most of your note (excepting the creche,
that seems to me to be directly promoting Christianity over other religions).
And I agree that tolerance is two way. As long as it is carefully defined, I
don't mind the symbolism, but there is the slippery slope argument to consider.

RE:    <<< Note 833.142 by BIGQ::SILVA "Nobody wants a Charlie in the Box!" >>>


>	I disagree. If a family is NOT religious, then school prayer is
>useless. How many 1-6th graders do you think will understand the meaning
>behind school prayer? How many do you feel will take it seriously? Apply




 Well, I know of about 75 kids that attend public schools that ride our busses
 to my church who know what prayer is...and their parents for the most part
 don't attend..and there are many churches in this country that bring public
 school kids to church on busses..they know what prayer is, and their families
 for themost part don't attend..how many take it seriously?  I don't know, but
 I'd bet that some prayer activity in school 5 days a week, along with what
 they get in church will help tremendously..


 Jim

.149 CSLALL::HENDERSON "Learning to lean"

 I'd bet that some prayer activity in school 5 days a week, along with what
 they get in church will help tremendously..

Help tremendously to what?

Steve

 Help tremendously for them to understand the meaning behind school prayer (see
 glen's .142)





Jim

>	Mike, you stated that school prayer is the cause, as you mentioned the
>year it went away, and what has happened since. So if you are using this to
>make a point, I assumed that you had some figures to back your claim. You
    
    You forget that I mentioned in another topic that I've seen the graphs
    and was asking for the data to build my own graphs.
    
>	Mike, how does open prayer over someone equate to prayer in school? Are
>you advocating verbal prayer for schools? Also, you are doing exactly what I
    
    You aren't paying attention.  I said many replies back that my
    preferred method would be a moment of silence.  Time to put your Silva
    Spiral(tm) away.
    
>an inner city? I know your kids aren't old enough for school yet, but I want
>you to really think about it before you answer. 
    
    My kids are all in elementary school.  They have prayed with their
    friends before and their friends with them.  It's no big deal.  It's
    only a big deal to uninformed adults.

>	If that is the case Mike, why do I keep hearing about all these people
>dieing from the inner cities. People being beaten because they are different in
>the inner cities? Someone dies because they went where they weren't supposed to
>go because some gang has imaginary borders? Why do I hear about kids being
>caught in the crossfire so much? I hear something almost every single day.
>Could it be that possibly, some inner cites aren't NEARLY as bad as others?

    Maybe it's because you need to get into your local inner cities and start 
    evangelizing.
    
    won't have time for the rest, duty calls.
    
    Mike

| <<< Note 833.148 by TINCUP::BITTROLFF "Creator of Buzzword Compliant Systems" >>>

| Glen, Jim has already told you from firsthand experience that most parents 
| could care less. We also see a lot of parents sending their kids to church 
| just to get them out of their hair for a few hours.

	Exactly. But Mike disagrees. Not much we can do. I think school prayer
will do nothing at all until families are families again. Love is the key
element. Love can take a failed marriage and make it whole, or a failed
marriage that still splits and make the single family parent strong, it can do
so much. Remember, love really is God. (imho)

| Glen, Well said. I still can't see school prayer as anything other than an
| attempt to have the state promote a particular religion.

	It would appear that is what Mike would want. Hopefully he has answered
me somewhere in this note string.



Glen

| <<< Note 833.149 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Learning to lean" >>>



| Well, I know of about 75 kids that attend public schools that ride our busses
| to my church who know what prayer is...

	Jim, they're going to church. That is not school. Put the two together
and let me know what happens.

| I'd bet that some prayer activity in school 5 days a week, along with what
| they get in church will help tremendously..

	Then we are back to pushing one form of religion, aren't we Jim? 


Glen

| <<< Note 833.152 by FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>

| >	Mike, how does open prayer over someone equate to prayer in school? Are
| >you advocating verbal prayer for schools? Also, you are doing exactly what I

| You aren't paying attention. I said many replies back that my preferred method
| would be a moment of silence. Time to put your Silva Spiral(tm) away.

	Even I had to laugh at this one Mike. :-)  Mike, if I ask a question,
how is there a spin being put on anything? If I made a statement that you want
verbal prayer in schools, then the spin is there. So if you would, when I ask a
question, it's because I am unsure of what it is you are saying, and would
appreciate it if you would just clear up the questions. Thanks.

| >an inner city? I know your kids aren't old enough for school yet, but I want
| >you to really think about it before you answer.

| My kids are all in elementary school. They have prayed with their friends 
| before and their friends with them. It's no big deal.  

	Mike, do you live in an inner city?

| >	If that is the case Mike, why do I keep hearing about all these people
| >dieing from the inner cities. People being beaten because they are different in
| >the inner cities? Someone dies because they went where they weren't supposed to
| >go because some gang has imaginary borders? Why do I hear about kids being
| >caught in the crossfire so much? I hear something almost every single day.
| >Could it be that possibly, some inner cites aren't NEARLY as bad as others?

| Maybe it's because you need to get into your local inner cities and start
| evangelizing.

	Gee Mike, great answer. The inner cities are going to have the biggest
problems. The problems need to be solved. It's going to take a lot to do it,
but unless it's done, it ain't gonna get any better. Evangelizing on it's own
merit will not cure their ills. It's gonna take a lot more than that. All one
has to do is look at the cities now and see that. But of course you think
praying will be easy.... no matter where one is.



Glen

re Note 833.155 by BIGQ::SILVA:

> 	Gee Mike, great answer. The inner cities are going to have the biggest
> problems. The problems need to be solved. It's going to take a lot to do it,
> but unless it's done, it ain't gonna get any better. Evangelizing on it's own
> merit will not cure their ills. It's gonna take a lot more than that. All one
> has to do is look at the cities now and see that. But of course you think
> praying will be easy.... no matter where one is.

        Glen,

        Don't confuse "evangelizing" with school prayer -- you are
        playing into the hands of the school prayer proponents if you
        allow the notion to persist that a moment of silence or
        generic prayer in a school is evangelizing of any sort.

        It may very well be that one of the best things to happen to
        the inner city would be true evangelizing;  however, prayer
        in public school isn't evangelizing.

        Bob

>	Even I had to laugh at this one Mike. :-)  Mike, if I ask a question,
>how is there a spin being put on anything? If I made a statement that you want
    
    Because you continue to read into my statements even after receiving a
    definitive answer.
    
>	Mike, do you live in an inner city?
    
    I'm about 12-15 miles from downtown Phoenix's combat zone.

>	Gee Mike, great answer. The inner cities are going to have the biggest
>problems. The problems need to be solved. It's going to take a lot to do it,
>but unless it's done, it ain't gonna get any better. Evangelizing on it's own
>merit will not cure their ills. It's gonna take a lot more than that. All one
>has to do is look at the cities now and see that. But of course you think
>praying will be easy.... no matter where one is.
    
    So you're telling me your God isn't capable of working through
    believers to help solve these problems?  Glad my God isn't like that.
    
    It would be easier for you to admit that you're just not interested
    than belittle God.  "Whatever you do to the least of these, you've done
    unto me."  Now how's that for a Silva Spin(tm)?

    Mike

| <<< Note 833.156 by LGP30::FLEISCHER "without vision the people perish (DTN 297-5780, MRO3-3/L16)" >>>


| Don't confuse "evangelizing" with school prayer -- 

	Actually Bob, I guess I should have been more clearer. When I talked
about evangelizing in the inner cities saying that isn't enough, should have
been one paragraph. When I talked about it at the end of that paragraph, about
prayer being easy, I was referring to Mike's comment on school prayer not being
a problem. They were two different subjects altogether. Evangelizing on it's
own won't work, as there are too many problems. It is not going to be easy to
get school prayer to mean anything in the inner cities. Does this clear it up?

| you are playing into the hands of the school prayer proponents if you allow 
| the notion to persist that a moment of silence or generic prayer in a school 
| is evangelizing of any sort.

	Wow, what you said makes perfect sense. And when I reread what I wrote,
I clearly see why you thought I felt that way. Sorry about that. I do view them
as two different things. To me evangelizing is pushing one concept only. A
moment of silence is a chance for anyone who wishes to pray to their God, a
chance to do so.

Glen

| <<< Note 833.157 by FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>

| >	Even I had to laugh at this one Mike. :-)  Mike, if I ask a question,
| >how is there a spin being put on anything? If I made a statement that you want

| Because you continue to read into my statements even after receiving a 
| definitive answer.

	Mike, if the answer was definitive to *me*, I would not have asked 
further questions. In your own mind, what you wrote was clear and percise. But
not everyone may feel that way. Take the note of mine you just responded to. I
knew exactly what I meant, and I thought it was worded fine. Bob saw it a
different way, and brought some key points up. When I reread the note, it was
clear how it could have been taken that way. Again, if I make statements, then
jump all over me. If I ask a question, why make a big deal? Would it be better
that I just make statements about you?

| >	Mike, do you live in an inner city?

| I'm about 12-15 miles from downtown Phoenix's combat zone.

	So the answer is no. Prayer for kids in the inner cities is going to be
much harder. Not impossible, but much harder. The other ills of the inner
cities plays into all this, and help in those areas is needed as well. That's
why after you described your sons praying over the neighborhood kids and saying
it was easy, that I asked if you lived in the inner city.

| So you're telling me your God isn't capable of working through believers to 
| help solve these problems?  Glad my God isn't like that.

	Mike, can I call you a spinner??? :-)  Actually Mike, what I said was
evangelizing on it's own merit won't be the answer. I believe that God is very
capable of working through believers to get the job done. But I think that more
than words about God will be needed, and I believe God will use believers, and
non-believers, to accomplish what needs to get done. But it will also take the
people who live there to get this done.

| It would be easier for you to admit that you're just not interested than 
| belittle God.  "Whatever you do to the least of these, you've done unto me."  
| Now how's that for a Silva Spin(tm)?

	Mike, Mike, Mike. You're gonna be called a spin doctor pretty soon.
What you wrote above is a statement. What you wrote is false. Why is it that if
you don't understand my position, that you just don't ask?


Glen

.153> Remember, love really is God. (imho)

    	God is love.  No question.
    
    	Not all love is God, however.

RE:    <<< Note 833.154 by BIGQ::SILVA "Nobody wants a Charlie in the Box!" >>>




>| Well, I know of about 75 kids that attend public schools that ride our busses
>| to my church who know what prayer is...

>	Jim, they're going to church. That is not school. Put the two together
>and let me know what happens.


 Go back and read the question I answered with the above statment. your question
 was "how many 1-6th graders would understand what school prayer is all about?" 
 (or something to that effect)..these are kids from inner cities, single parent
 homes.


>>| I'd bet that some prayer activity in school 5 days a week, along with what
>>| they get in church will help tremendously..

>	Then we are back to pushing one form of religion, aren't we Jim? 


   Yep, you're right Glen..we'll just drop the whole thing and let the kids go
 down the tubes..




 Jim

| <<< Note 833.160 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Plucky kind of a kid" >>>


| God is love.  No question.
| Not all love is God, however.

	If God is love, can you explain what you mean by all love isn't God?
Wouldn't that be contradictory of the first?


Glen

| <<< Note 833.161 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Learning to lean" >>>

| >	Jim, they're going to church. That is not school. Put the two together
| >and let me know what happens.

| Go back and read the question I answered with the above statment. your question
| was "how many 1-6th graders would understand what school prayer is all about?"
| (or something to that effect)..these are kids from inner cities, single parent
| homes.

	Guess I should have been more clear, huh? How about answering it
pertaining to school Jim. Now inner city schools. 

| >>| I'd bet that some prayer activity in school 5 days a week, along with what
| >>| they get in church will help tremendously..

| >	Then we are back to pushing one form of religion, aren't we Jim?

| Yep, you're right Glen..we'll just drop the whole thing and let the kids go
| down the tubes..

	Jim, you lost me. What does asking if you're pushing one religion
(Christianity) and letting the kids go down the tubes have to do with each
other? All I wanted to know was if you were pushing one religion. A simple
yes or no will do.


Glen

    	re .162
    
    	No contradiction.

	Wonderful Joe.... now could you explain how there is no contradiction?

    Glen:
    
    You can love something for sinful reasons.
    
    "Boy would I love to sleep with my neighbors wife!!"  I think
    covetousness is defined as a love of something.. For example.
    
    "The LOVE of money is the root to all kinds of evil"
    
    -Jack

    	So do I need to repeat the same thing, Glen, or is that good 
    	enough?
    
    	Not all love is God.
    
    	God is love.

    >    	Not all love is God.
    
    There are 3 basic kinds of love:
    
    1. Agape
    2. Philos
    3. Eros
    
    Glen, pick which one is God's love and you'll win the prize.
    
    Mike

| <<< Note 833.166 by AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!" >>>


| You can love something for sinful reasons.

	Jack, if it is for sinful reasons, then it isn't from God, is it? Both
statements that were made by Joe had God in them. If God is present, then the
love isn't wrong. That was why I was asking Joe if he wasn't being
contradictory. Your examples were based on love not from God. 


Glen

    That is a no win arguement.
    
    There are four kinds of love.
    
    Caritas is the correct answer.
    
    Remember  Faith, hope, love abide these three.  
    Translated Faith, hope, charity in some translations.
    
                               Patricia

    I can add another Greek word for love:
    
    Storge - (pronounced store-gay) familial love.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    Storge sounds like it fits under Philos to me.

    .172
    
    You'll need to argue that one with the ancient Greeks, not me.
    
    Richard
    

    a brother is considered family whether they are a blood relative or
    not.

.158 BIGQ::SILVA "Nobody wants a Charlie in the Box!"
 Title:  Sorry bout that

>>A moment of silence is a chance for anyone who wishes to pray to their God, a
>>chance to do so.

Does it really take a formal moment of silence to send a prayer? I was under the
impression that prayers travelled at the speed of thought and could be
transmitted anytime, during the trip to school, before class formally starts,
during a lull in the lecture, at a locker, while walking to the next class, etc.
Does God only recognize formal prayers?

Steve

>    a brother is considered family whether they are a blood relative or
>    not.

aren't we having this discussion in another topic?

| <<< Note 833.175 by TINCUP::BITTROLFF "Creator of Buzzword Compliant Systems" >>>


| Does it really take a formal moment of silence to send a prayer? 

	No, you could have a prayer any time of day. Again I wasn't clear on
what I said. To add to it, a moment of silence is a chance for someone who is
religious an opportunity to pray to their God. But one can pray whenever they
want.

| Does God only recognize formal prayers?

	There is something to do with that and Catholics I think. It has to do
with confession. I remember asking why we need it to have God forgive our sins
when all we need to do is ask. It was stated that our prayers were impure,
because we were, and we would have to channel through someone who was pure, a
priest, in order for God to hear it. Whether that is the reason for confession,
I don't know.


Glen

    	re .169
    
    	Well, Glen.  You just answered your own objections to what
    	I wrote in .160 -- in particular I said that not all love
    	is God.  
    
    	.169 is a great explanation of how some love might
    	not be God -- in particular a sinful love.

	Joe, how can love from God be sinful? That is what I am referring to.
Is love from anything else really love? 


Glen

	.179

>Joe, how can love from God be sinful? 
    
    	It can't.
    
>That is what I am referring to.
    
    	Well thanks for finally clearing that up.
    
>Is love from anything else really love? 
    
    	Sure, and that was why I was saying that not all love is God.

	I guess where we differ is you think there is love that doesn't come
from God. I just think that in order for it to be love, it has to be from God.
Anything else is not love, but some lesser form.


Glen

.177 BIGQ::SILVA "Nobody wants a Charlie in the Box!"

>>But one can pray whenever they want.

So why do we need to institute a formal moment of silence?

Steve

| <<< Note 833.182 by TINCUP::BITTROLFF "Creator of Buzzword Compliant Systems" >>>


| So why do we need to institute a formal moment of silence?

	To be honest, we don't. Mike Heiser will tell you that when we had it
before it helped. I haven't seen anything he has said to back this claim. He
made comparrisons between today and the 40's. How things were much better then.
Yet when asked to back up 50 years before that, when prayer in school was
around, things were even better. Both Mike and I agree that the parents are
where problems are, but he takes it one step further and says no school prayer 
is another part of it. But a moment of silence will not hurt anyone, and will
make some people happy. And seeing it is a moment of silence, it could never be
refered to as a time to pray (except by the parents).


Glen

    I think people confuse love with desire.  As I stated before..."Wow
    would I love to win the lottery..."  Glen, you're right.  It isn't love
    in the pure sense.  It is lust, envy, or covetousness.  
    
    -Jack

    > So why do we need to institute a formal moment of silence?
    
    We need a moment of silent reflection in schools... I would say two
    scheduled moments of silence: one at the begining of the day, and one
    at lunch. Students would be directed to take a moment to reflect on
    how fortunate they are to live in a free country, to receive an
    education, and to think about their role as being a responsible
    student, citizen, and human being.
    
    If that reflection involves prayer then fine; all the better I'd say.
    If it is a totally secular reflection, great. The point is our young
    people spend zero time, or nearly zero time, reflecting and all their
    time reacting. Call it "a moment of silent person and civic
    reflection."
    
    Eric
    
    PS This is a serious note. I really think we need to have young people
    *think* about their good fortune and responsibilities.

| <<< Note 833.184 by AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!" >>>



| I think people confuse love with desire.  As I stated before..."Wow
| would I love to win the lottery..."  Glen, you're right.  It isn't love
| in the pure sense.  It is lust, envy, or covetousness.

	That is exactly what I am talking about Jack. Thanks for clarifying it
in a way I could seem to. 


Glen

.181> I just think that in order for it to be love, it has to be from God.
.181> Anything else is not love, but some lesser form.

    	Some of the things you describe as love are not from God, in
    	my opinion.

.182> So why do we need to institute a formal moment of silence?

    	As a symbolic national statement.  See .140 for more details of
    	my position.

.185 APACHE::MYERS

    We need a moment of silent reflection in schools... I would say two
    scheduled moments of silence: one at the begining of the day, and one
    at lunch. Students would be directed to take a moment to reflect on
    how fortunate they are to live in a free country, to receive an
    education, and to think about their role as being a responsible
    student, citizen, and human being.

My guess is that 99% would spend their moment thinking about the opposite sex :^)

Seriously, I think that discussion around what you advise reflecting on would be
a good idea. I think that reflection (like prayer) can be done nearly anywhere
and nearly anytime. I also suspect that this issue is much more important to
adults than to the children it would theoretically affect. This is because the
adults recognize the symbolism involved.

    PS This is a serious note. I really think we need to have young people
    *think* about their good fortune and responsibilities.

You can lead a student to a moment of silence, but you can't make them think.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.188 CSC32::J_OPPELT "Plucky kind of a kid"

    	As a symbolic national statement.  See .140 for more details of
    	my position.

Joe, you state that it would be a show of tolerance for religion. That is fine,
but some of my biggest fears revolve around history's repeated lessons about the
intolerance of religions (once in a position of power) for those that don't
agree with them. I believe that the state must avoid even the impression of
support for any religion over another, or for any religion in general. I also
can't see a moment of silence as anything more than a thinly disguised first
step toward an official school prayer.
 
Steve

RE:    <<< Note 833.181 by BIGQ::SILVA "Nobody wants a Charlie in the Box!" >>>




>Anything else is not love, but some lesser form.



   Lesser form of what?

| <<< Note 833.187 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Plucky kind of a kid" >>>


| Some of the things you describe as love are not from God, in my opinion.

	That's fine Joe. After all, you are entitled to your HUMAN opinions.

| <<< Note 833.190 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Learning to lean" >>>



| Lesser form of what?


	Attraction

    	So true love (from God) is a greater form of attraction?

	Joe, love goes further than attraction. MUCH further.

    	Of course it does, but your last few gave the impression that
    	love is just a greater form of attraction:
    
.181>You:  Anything else is not love, but some lesser form.
.191>Someone else:   Lesser form of what?
.192>You:	Attraction
    

    AP 18 Apr 95 20:22 EDT V0523
 
    Copyright 1995 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
 
    JACKSON, Miss. (AP) -- A public school must stop holding morning
    devotionals because the practice is unconstitutional and "segregates
    students along religious lines," a federal judge ruled Tuesday. 

    U.S. District Judge Neal Biggers Jr. sided with Lisa Herdahl, a mother
    of six who sued last December, claiming that five of her children were
    ridiculed at school for not taking part in the prayers. 

    Biggers issued a preliminary injunction stopping the prayers. He set a
    March 4 trial date on Herdahl's lawsuit. 

    The injunction bars broadcast of devotions or scriptures over the
    school intercom system, and student-led devotionals during school
    hours. He said students may gather in the gym before class for daily
    devotional services. 

    Biggers said the school's practice of allowing a student Bible group to
    broadcast devotionals over a public address system "places the
    district's seal of approval on this practice." 

    Its custom of excusing pupils who do not wish to participate "does not
    cure the constitutional defect," Biggers wrote. 

    "Organized prayer in public schools does not unite students from
    various backgrounds and beliefs but, instead, segregates students along
    religious lines," Biggers wrote. 

    County schools Superintendent Jerry Horton was out of town Tuesday and
    not available for comment. He said earlier that the prayers were "for
    the good of the student body" and handled only by students. 

    Herdahl said in December that she had complained for months that the
    prayers were unconstitutional. The 1,300-school, North Pontotoc
    Attendance Center, educates children from kindergarten through high
    school. 

    She said Tuesday that the decision "states what I've stated all along,
    that prayer in the intercom and the classroom is not legal and not
    right." 

    "They can go to the church if they want to. They can pray in their
    homes. They don't need to bring into the school," she said. 

	in todays world, school prayer would be better left out of schools. The
diverse religious backgrounds of the students really make something like -.1
impossible to have. 


Glen

    I even like the idea of making in optional before school in the gym.  I
    would also hope the school would make other spaces available for
    alternative approaches to meditation and prayer.
    
    That way the children truly committed to prayer can gather and pray
    without forcing their practices on others.
    
                                Patricia

    What about offering electives in high schools where students can study
    the precepts of their own faith and even open in prayer if they want
    to.
    
    In the Massachusetts Public School system, I took a class called
    fundamentals of Western religions.  It actually didn't go into faith
    too much but more or less focused on the religions themselves...how
    they started, etc.  
    
    So a school in Mississippi could offer the follow...
    
    Fundamentals of Bible Believing Christians
    Fundamentals of Catholic Catechism and Biblical concepts
    Fundamentals of the Jewish Faith
    Fundamentals of Muslim
    Fundamentals of Eastern Religion
    
    This could be an ELECTIVE...either to be taken or not...it doesn't
    matter.  Considering I took Chefs course and Humor in The American
    Media...as well as classes like Death and Dying in the Public Schools, 
    I believe it would be a feasable alternative if most of the parents are
    for religion in schools.  
    
    -Jack

    When I was in school the school allowed release time once a week so
    that students could attend religious education classes sponsored by the
    churches.  Catholic students went to CCD and the protestant students
    went to an interdenominational program.  Some students stayed at school
    and had a free period.  I don't know what other religious groups did.
    
    While I would support electives in World Religions, The Bible as
    literature, etc, I would not support the use of public funds to
    create and teach specifically denominational Religious education.  In
    fact I liked the released time option because it clearly kept in school
    what belonged in school and in the Faith communities what belonged in
    the faith communities.
    
                            Patricia
    
    

    Oh...but what do you think about the nonsensical electives we offer in
    school today?
    
    -Jack

    Jack,
    
    Having an adolescent with reading difficulties and A.D.D. has made
    me totally rethink what I would call nonsensical electives.
    
    Religion belongs in the Faith communities and not in public schools.
    Anyone who wants to send their children to religious schools, has the
    right to do that.  Parents who find that important enough find a way to
    do it.  Faith Communities also find ways to make their education
    available to those who truly cannot afford it.
    
    So we are talking about a money issue and not a faith issue.
    
    
                                      Patricia

    Correct.  I believe there are alot of good electives but there are
    definitely bad ones.
    
    -Jack

    Jack,
    
    Can you give me some examples of bad electives so I know where you are
    coming from?
    
                             Patricia
    
    

	Jack, if they discussed how they evolved, and did not talk about the
faith part of it, or pass judgement on other religions, I would agree that
could be something good as an elective. But it would have to be taught by the
teachers, not people from those religions. 

    Disagree vehemently.  Would you have a history professor teach a home
    economics course?  I think not.
    
    I believe it should be taught on a voluntary basis by clergy from the
    respective churches.  I wouldn't want a teacher from the NEA teaching 
    Baptist distinctives...
    
    -Jack

    Patricia:
    
    Chef's course was a joke.  The kids were in that class to eat...nothing
    more.
    
    Death and Dying was a humanist course in which the big thing was to go
    to a funeral parlor and observe an embalming.  I didn't see any value
    to this.  I took a class called Humor in Lit.  It was a English
    elective but wasn't really a useful class to prepare one for college.
    
    It's been over 15 years so I can't remember a whole lot...but I
    remember there were some real pathetic ones!
    
    -Jack

    	Electives?  Did somebody ask about electives?
    
    	Our local junior high has a contemporary cinema class.  They
    	watch current movies that are available on video.
    
    	Then there is the "games" class where the kids are supposed to
    	learn socialization, cooperation, and thinking skills by playing
    	board games.

    Jack,
    
    Why did you sign up for all these pathetic elective courses?
    
    Death and Dying sounds like a healthy elective to me!
    
    I think all men should go to cooking and chef's classes(women too!)
    
    Humor in literature sounds like a bit of light heartedness in the midst
    of a heavy course load.
    
                          patricia

    Patricia:
    
    I signed up for chefs course for free food.
    
    I did the death and dying thing because I wanted to see dead people in
    caskets.  It was teenage curiosity...nothing weird or anything.
    
    And humor in lit I took because I thought it would make me laugh. 
    Actually, Humor in Lit wasn't too bad.  The funny thing is that my
    teacher in this course quit teaching the year I took her class.  She
    got a Sales position with some obscure company...I think it's called
    Digital Equipment Corporation.
    
    It was funny because I bumped into her at a trade show.  She remembered
    my face and said that I brought back bad memories for her....errr...not
    because of my behavior but because she didn't like teaching!
    
    -Jack

    > I believe it should be taught on a voluntary basis by clergy from the
    > respective churches.  I wouldn't want a teacher from the NEA teaching
    > Baptist distinctives...

    I believe what you're looking for is called "Sunday School." Contact
    your local church for details.

    What we need is not doctrinal exegesis or denominational pitch-men in
    the public schools, but an intelligent, respectful examination on
    religion as a socio-political force. The evolution, goals and major
    themes of various religions should certainly be discussed. But even
    more so, we should discus the role of religion and religious leaders in
    the shaping of our society and the greater world community. 

    America is a land of people separated by walls of ignorance and
    suspicion. Christian don't understand Jews and Jews don't understand
    Christians. Heck, "Bible Believin' Christians" don't understand
    Catholics and vice versa... and no one understands the Muslims. :^)
    
    
    	Eric

    	Why should elective homemaking courses be offered any more?  
    	Feminists don't want women to be domestic nowadays, so those
    	courses should be eliminated as outdated.  They teach the
    	girls the wrong messages, and useless skills.
    
    	Or maybe they should remain so that the boys can be domesticated
    	through them.

    Eric:
    
    I'm inclined to agree.  This is just a compromise if a large segment
    was for prayer and religion in the public schools!!!!!!!
    
    
    Rgds.,
    
    -Jack

    Joe,
    
    you got it!
    
                                  Patricia

    Eric,
    
    I agree wholeheartedly with your recommendation.
    
                                             Patricia

| <<< Note 833.206 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "You-Had-Forty-Years!!!" >>>

| Disagree vehemently. Would you have a history professor teach a home 
| economics course?  I think not.

	So you're saying we should add more teachers to a system that already
has too many teachers that aren't doing their job as it is? 

| I believe it should be taught on a voluntary basis by clergy from the
| respective churches.  

	It would have to include all religions, including Wicca, right?


Glen

    ZZZ        It would have to include all religions, including Wicca, right?
    
    Right!  However, the approval would have to be from the parents.
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 833.217 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "You-Had-Forty-Years!!!" >>>

| ZZZ        It would have to include all religions, including Wicca, right?

| Right!  However, the approval would have to be from the parents.

	I knew the disclaimers would pop up. Religion should be about religion,
not individula religions, not individual denominations. Like someone stated
earlier, they have Sunday school for that. 



Glen

	Jack, also, if you would, please address the economics issue I asked
about? Adding more teachers to the frey when there are two many now....

    I already addressed that.  The teachers would have to volunteer.  They
    could be local clergy from local churches.  
    
    I'm amazed that somebody who believes in choice would want to stifle
    something like this...so as not to upset the apple cart.  As far as the
    disclaimer, I believe it is the parents right to know what curriculum
    their child is involved in...be it wicca or fundamental baptist!
    
    -jACK

| <<< Note 833.220 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "You-Had-Forty-Years!!!" >>>

| I already addressed that. The teachers would have to volunteer. 

	I could live with that. But it can not be about faith, it can be about
the history, and what the faith means. In other words, it can't be recruitment.
This is why I thought it would be best to have it taught by someone who is NOT
from that faith, as no one could seriously be accused of recruitment, which
would help keep trouble down to a bear minimum. I mean, a teacher might not
know all about her/his subject, but schooling and books will get them there.

| I'm amazed that somebody who believes in choice would want to stifle something
| like this

	Jack, what are you referring to when you say, "choice"?

| As far as the disclaimer, I believe it is the parents right to know what 
| curriculum their child is involved in...be it wicca or fundamental baptist!

	I actually agree with this, but also know all will have to be allowed
to be taught, or none. Parents can keep their kids out of any or all of them,
as parents should be going over the selection of classes for their kids anyway.
But ALL should be offered, not just a select few.



Glen

    Glen:
    
    I know your position on abortion...I wasn't referring to that.  I was
    referring to the freedoms we exercise under the Constitution and the
    freedom of self destiny.
    
    -Jack

	"Religion flourishes in greater purity without than with
the aid of government."

					-- James Madison

 Z   "Religion flourishes in greater purity without than with
 Z   the aid of government."
    
    I agree with this statement.  The colonies were established in fact to
    counter the exact practices that are going on in our government today.  
    The left wing ideologues for some reason have a violent reaction toward
    any kind of religious activity...things like praying silently in a
    school cafeteria before you eat.  Things that are not intrusive to them
    and they have no business interfering in the rights of US citizens.
    
    -Jack

re Note 833.224 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN:

>     any kind of religious activity...things like praying silently in a
>     school cafeteria before you eat.  Things 

        Is it really true that there is a public school in the US
        today (or recently) in which a student who silently prays
        before eating is made to stop?

        For one thing, HOW DO THEY KNOW THAT THE STUDENT IS PRAYING?

        Bob

>                    -< Public schools haven't got a prayer >-

From which, of course, we can directly deduce that Mike Heiser does not
pray for them.

This is one of many areas in which I don't undestand the mix of religion
and politics. While accepting that a great many people might politically
disagree with things, I would expect a religious person to pray at least
for mutual success or well being.

Clinton is a good example. Even if we hate him, maybe especially if we
hate him, we should pray for him as the leader of our nation.

Looks like Public Schools fall into that same category. We hate so let
'em be damned.

TTom

    Tom:
    
    You are correct about us praying for our leaders.  Perhaps I should put
    some of the blame on myself but I haven't been praying for Bill
    Clinton.  I admit this sin and make no excuse for it.  
    
    Perhaps there are times when the president gets a raw deal; however, I
    think it needs to be pointed out that if a person is unfairly judged,
    it is sometimes due to the fact that the person had character flaws in
    the past and unfortunately carries the penalty of those flaws with
    him/her.  Moses for example, was out to do the right thing, and yet a
    Hebrew said, "Are you not going to kill me just as you killed the
    Egyptian??"  Although Moses appeared to do right in protecting a beaten
    Hebrew, his past actions carried the short legacy which caused Moses to
    flee.
    
    -Jack

    ZZ       For one thing, HOW DO THEY KNOW THAT THE STUDENT IS PRAYING?
    
    Bob:
    
    There have been cases in this country where a student was unfairly
    suspended for silently praying before eating lunch.  In one particular
    case, the student had been warned not to do this two times.  On the
    third time he was escorted to the principles office and suspended. 
    
    I seem to recall a certain prophet in the Old Testament doing the very
    same thing...just before he was thrown in a den of lions.  
    
    -Jack

    
    re: Note 833.229 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN 
    
    > There have been cases in this country where a student was unfairly
    > suspended for silently praying before eating lunch.
    
    I believe this is an urban legend...
    
    	Eric

Jack,

>    You are correct about us praying for our leaders.  Perhaps I should put
>    some of the blame on myself but I haven't been praying for Bill
>    Clinton.  I admit this sin and make no excuse for it.  

This is really what it's all about. Your humanity and your faith ring
loudly and clearly!

Certainly, I'm in no position to cast stones on this issue, either. And
when pointed out, all we can do is 'fess up.

TTom

	Jack, thanks for being so honest. You showed a lot of character. Thanks
for posting that note. 



Glen

No doubt, there are abuses on both sides. The Christian Coalition
maintains an excellent ongoing referrals to attacks on individual
rights in the name of the separation of church and state, these
abuses need to be fought every bit as hard as abuses in the other
direction. While I don't always (often?) agree on where they draw
the line, there is no doubt that some of these actions are over
the line. 

From my point of view the line is pretty simple. The right of a
student to pray silently, read the Bible (during free time), talk
to fellow students about their beliefs, etc. should not be 
abridged. Religious clubs should get the same support as any other
club formed by the students, for the students.

The school must do nothing, however, to promote or deny religious
expression, or to give the appearence that they are promoting or
denying such expression. This includes a morning prayer, a moment
of silence, or sponsored prayers at a graduation ceremony. (Why 
not allow those so inclined to go somewhere for prayer after the
formal ceremony?). If the valedictorian wishes to acknowledge God
(or the devil) in their speech this is fine, but leading a prayer
crosses the line. It also includes prayers led by coaches or 
teachers at school sponsored events, a practice that is clearly
over the line. 

Steve

    Steve:
    
    You just made a great case for privatization!
    
    -Jack

.234

How so?

Steve

    Stop the socialized trend of the past years...forcing taxpayers to
    support public schools and allow them the freedom of choice given to
    pro abortionists and people who pray in schools to their diety.
    
    -Jack

.236

Jack,

I fail to see the connection between my first note and .236 
I wrote it around schools, but it could easily apply to government in
general.

Out of curiosity, if you privitize the schools how do you make sure 
that everyone has a chance at a good education? Or do you only school
those whose parents can afford it.

Steve

    Steve:
    
    Sorry, I guess your note spurred this kind of thinking in me.  Get rid
    of the government and allow the schools to set policy as they think
    best.
    
    Our secondary school system was amongst the elite...that is until
    recent years when Political Correctness and multiculturalism got its
    ugly claws into it.  The reason it was the elite was because it was
    competitive in nature amongst other colleges.  Competitiveness drives 
    excellence.  The socialistic methods we incorporate today.  The methods
    of tax funded schooling promotes things like tenure and mediocrity...a
    method that has brought us into 13th place amongst industrialized
    nations.  I find this inexcusable.
    
    -Jack

>From which, of course, we can directly deduce that Mike Heiser does not
>pray for them.
    
    Tom, never assume.

Jack,

I didn't use the word assume since I didn't have to assume anything.

Mike made it clear that from his perspective the public schools haven't
got a prayer. The one Mike knows for sure is whether or not he prays for
the publics schools. He declares that they have no prayers so he is
stating that he does not pray for the public schools.

TTom

    A good friend of mine at church just recently left public teaching (5th
    grade) after doing it for 8 years.  He's going to Scottsdale Christian
    Academy.  They're losing a lot of good teachers who are fed up.  My 
    children's 2nd grade teacher, who also attends my church, is on the way 
    out as well.
    
    Mike

I don't disagree that public schooling needs some (a lot) 
of help. I also believe that a strong public school system, 
available to everyone, can be a cornerstone to keeping the 
country strong. It is the available to everyone part that
worries me about private schools.

Steve

    I agree with you...which makes even more of a case that schools need to
    be privatized...or some sort of competitiveness between schools and
    districts.  We are well on our way to becoming a third world country.
    
    Theme of Public Schools...Don't press the need to learn 1 plus 1 lest
    you hurt Johnnys sensitive side....and anything that is a product of
    Eurocentrist thinking is not good.
    
    -Jack

.243 MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal"

Jack,

This still leaves begging the question: "How will a privatized
school system accept all applicants, even those that cannot 
pay?".

Also, my understanding of outcome based education was simply that
testing be implemented to make sure that each student did learn
the basics, yet this was vehemently resisted by religious 
organizations. What is your view on this?

Steve

re Note 833.244 by TINCUP::BITTROLFF:

> Jack,
> 
> This still leaves begging the question: "How will a privatized
> school system accept all applicants, even those that cannot 
> pay?".

        Well, there's always the dreaded term "entitlement".

        (I'm sure you can find some spokesperson of the right who
        will explain that by giving away "free" education we have
        interfered with and then destroyed the social fabric of some
        segment of our society>)


> Also, my understanding of outcome based education was simply that
> testing be implemented to make sure that each student did learn
> the basics, yet this was vehemently resisted by religious 
> organizations. What is your view on this?
  
        As far as I can tell, you are right.   The right wing seems
        to have found that almost any current educational phrase or
        philosophy can be raised to "demon status" (after all, few
        people outside of the education business read or hear enough
        about these things to have any idea what they are -- even the
        right-wing literature denouncing these things rarely tries to
        describe these programs in dispassionate terms).

        If your objective is to depose those currently in office,
        blame some of the obvious problems of society on some program
        that they can't deny but about which the public knows very
        little.  Modern political communications will give them
        little or no chance of explaining, much less defending, any
        existing program (nothing substantial can be done in
        15-second bites except mocking and ridicule).

        Bob

	Just remember that Jack is on vacation this week, so he probably won't
be replying....if he's sane anyway... :-)