Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Depends on whether you are a reformed or dispensationalist theologian.
    
    ktl

    
    	I used to have a couple of charismatic friends that had a favorite 
    saying:
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    			IT'S ALL GONNA BURN!
    
    
    
    	And that DOESN'T depend on whether or not you are reformed or 
    dispensational.

    
    	I noticed this note was spurred by one of my comments, so I guess 
    I'd better give a more serious comment.
    
    
    	My wife and I were discussing this the other day.  She keeps 
    reminding me that Christ could return 'any day', and that the spiritual 
    atmosphere of the world seems to be pointing to a very soon return. 
    
    	I believe that is so.  When I joined the army (1978) I was
    absolutely sure that Jesus would return before I finished my 4 year
    commitment.  As is obvious He hasn't returned.  I believe the Bible
    teaches that we are to 'occupy' until He returns.  That means keep on
    keepin' on.  Or as my pastor says 'Keeping the main thing the main
    thing.  We should be focused on MATT. 6:33.  
    
    	The Bible is CLEAR that no man knows the hour.  But it is equally 
    clear that those that are 'of the light' will not be taken by surprise.
    
    	ed
    

    I'm reminded of that character who keeps insisting every year, that the
    end times are going to commence on day such and such, and every year he
    is wrong.  Frankly, people have been predicting the end times for at
    least the last 2,000 years. 
    
    What frightens me about this subject is that there are those Christians
    who think that the "end times" will come about in the form of a nuclear
    war, and that they are ready and willing to get it over with.  I worry
    that some guy with his finger on the button will have some sort of
    "Born Again" experience, decide that he is the instrument of the
    Lord, and push us off into Armageddon.  
    
    Talk about self fulfilling prophecies!
    
    That isn't so far fetched, either, judging from some of the replies I
    saw in the "other" Christian notes conference while the Persian Gulf
    war was going on, and people were speculating if we would have to use
    nukes against Iraq. 
    
    Mike

    The Apocalypse
    
    IMO, the Apocalypse is just another part of the bible in general, and
    should be viewed as such, and not as some mystical addendum.  Of
    course, it speaks of the future, for it is prophescy, and is therefore
    not as "clearly understood or seen" as other scriptures, but surely as
    these prophecies are fulfilled they become crystal clear.
    
    The "end of times" or "end of the world" that we all agree must be just
    around the corner, is clearly not the "total end" of life on earth, but
    is a transition of "world order", the beginning of a new age.  IMO, one
    has view this as a question of "Astrological Age", and the transfer of
    dominion, rather than the "total end".  In our time, we shun Astrology,
    but in the bible writing times, ALL wise men were only so if they knew
    it, and many things in the bible can only be understood from an
    astrological perspective.
    
    You see, according to astrology, 2,000 years ago was the transition,
    the "end of times" and the beginning of a new age, just as we are
    experiencing it today, this happens every 2,150 years (approximately).
    
    We are in the Age of Pisces, which according to the ancients is called
    the "Age of the Brotherhood of Man", Jesus came to bring salvation and
    eternal life, yes, but he has a minor in teaching and bringing "Peace
    on earth, good will towards all men", as the angels proclaimed at his
    birth.  Jesus came to teach the Brotherhood of Man, (all Christs bring
    salvation), but this salvation is a matter of coping with the changing
    times and seasons.  During this age or season of Brotherhood, all men
    are suppose to learn the "common brotherhood of man", and when you
    think about Christianity, you can clearly sense the minor/undertone of
    it's teaching bringing mankind together as one brotherhood.  
    
    Some correspondences about Jesus that suggest an astrological
    perspective are as follows
    
    1)	Prior to the Piscean Age was the Age of Aries, which Aries is
    symbolized by the Ram, and Jesus is called the "Lamb of God", a Lamb is
    the son of the Ram, Jesus was born at the end of the Age of Aries.
    
    2)	Early Christians wore a medalion with "two fishes" to symbolized
    Jesus and their discipleship to him.  Pisces is symbolized by "two
    fishes".  
    
    3)	The signs of the zodiac function in oppositions, and opposite
    Pisces on the Zodiac is the sign of Virgo, symbolized by the virgin
    carrying tuffs of wheat/grain.  This has much to do with the "Virgin
    mother and Christ child, the Lamb of God" as being devised to represent
    the ages of Pisces and Virgo working together in opposition/complement.
    
    4)	Also, Jesus fed the multitudes with "two fishes and five loaves of
    bread", again Pisces and Virgo (bread is made from wheat/grain) working
    together.
    
    So, IMO, what is upon us is a time of "transition" and not the "total
    end".
    
    Clearly, the bible reminds us throughout itself that we live in a
    "world without end".  Also, we know that God said after the flood,
    never again will I destroy ALL life. 
    
    Playtoe

    In My End is My Beginning.
    
    T. S. Eliot

    Well, I think Playtoe makes some sense when he postulates that we may
    be in, or at least approaching, an age of transition, rather than
    entering some sort of "end times".  That I will buy, although I am
    uneasy with the astrological explanations, since I have difficulty
    accepting astrology in general.  The reason for that is, when we speak
    of transition times, or end times, we are speaking in terms of human
    events, and not anything else in outer space. 

    Although, if one can believe what the astrophysicists have to say,
    eventually life on earth will come to an end, if only because the sun
    with die out, and possibly go to a "red giant" stage just before it
    does so, which would, of course, completely wipe out all life on earth. 
    Not to worry though, the people who study such things think that series
    of events won't commence for about another four billion years yet.

    Mike

The end times are here (and have been here for 2,000 years).  The Kingdom
of God is here.  A word study of the New Testament shows that 95% of
the references to the end times are referring to the present.

Collis

    RE: 8
    
    I understand your skepticism, but the ancient's recognise the oneness
    of all things, the interconnectivity of nature, and perceived a reality
    in the consciousness of that oneness that we to can see if we first
    understand the nature of that "oneness/unity".
    
    Playtoe

The word translated "generation" in the Greek can also mean tribe or nation.
Therefore, there really is some question whether or not "generation" is
the best translation.

Assuming that generation is the best translation, the verse could still
mean that the generation that existed at the start of the special signs
being talked about would not disappear before the return of Christ.

Collis

    RE: 11
    
    Actually, there is much scriptural truth to these and other gnostic
    beliefs.  You'll remember that during the three days Jesus was in the
    tomb/death, he is said to have gone down into hell and bound up Satan,
    freed the captives and came giving gifts unto men.  Also, in one of the
    gospels (Luke or Mark) it mention that "the graves were opened" and
    the dead in Christ were at this time ressurrected (few ministers speak
    on this).  
    
    So 1)the Ressurrection (as the Gnostics say) has begun, 2)Satan has
    been bound, and the 1000 years of peace has already occurred, 3)we are
    in the period of "and afterwards (1000 years of peace) Satan will be
    lossed for a little season", and 4)we are close to the War of
    Armaggedon, the Apocalypse, the return of Jesus.
    
>    Could it be that the end times are when human beings recognize that
>    everything is already here, already accomplished? In other words, when
>    the "illusion" that we are divided and unforgiven and separated from
>    God is simply abandonned by our choice? It seems to me this would give
 >   Christianity a great deal in common with Buddhism.
    
    This indeed seems to be the message, at least that I'm getting.  Paul
    says this in Romans 1.  Also, Paul says, "Now only those who let will 
    let" (I don't remember where), but this referred to our coming into the
    knowledge of truth, what Christ had accomplished at his first coming.
    
    This is a wonderful topic to explore.
    
    Playtoe

      This topic, whenever it comes up, usually makes me laugh to myself
     a bit. All around us an entire universe is being born and is dying.
     Every moment is the "end times" just as every moment is the instant
     of creation. The universe of a split second ago is dead, gone forever
     and will never exist that way again. The universe of a split second
     from now is waiting to be created and none of us knows just what it will
     bring. You or I may not even be here to see it. Not one of us can be
     sure that we will still be alive a moment from now. There's a good
     chance will we be, but it is by no means a certainty.
       So, we are all balanced here on this razor's edge between the birth 
     death of universe, between everything that ever was and will be.
     "The end times" ? Why they have come and gone repeatedly just in the
     few moments it has taken to write this reply.

                                                               Mike
       

	I changed the title to this note by adding the theological term
"eschatology," which has to do with the study of the final days or the
end of all things.

Peace,
Richard

    I don't think Cindy'll mind if I share this here.
    
    The post-Rapture party for folks East of the Mississippi will be held
    at Cindy Painter's.
    
    The post-Rapture party for folks West of the Mississippi will be held
    at Richard Jones-Christie's.
    
    In either case, bring some munchies to share.  Dress will be casual.
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    Richard,
    
    Don and I will be glad to host a post rapture party, if you
    don't mind a messy house..
    
    n.w. Mass gang...
    
    hugs Cindy! 'bear' is doing fine...
    
    Bonnie

Sorry, I won't be able to attend.  :-)

    RE:  .18    Collis,
    
                         I have been thinking the same thing! :^)
    
    
    Dave

    The philosophy of consciousness implied by the Edgar Cayce readings (as
    I understand it)  strongly implies that the events described in
    Revelation are primarily a personal experience for which each of us is
    destined.  The readings do not deny, so far as I know, an eschatology
    for the human race, as well.
    
    DR
    
    (I should note that Edgar Cayce was a devout Christian.)

    in re .18 and .19
    
    if I'm still here, I'll be raising vegies, and chickens and ministering
    as best I can to those who show up here (like Mother Abigail?)..
    
    and assume that there was a reason God left me here....
    
    BJ

The two best known eschatological works are the Revelation of John, the last
book in the New Testament, and sections of Daniel, which is shelved with the
prophets in the Old Testament.

What is not commonly known is that many, many apocalypses have been written.
They all have pretty much the same thrust, ie, good ultimately triumphing
over evil.

Peace,
Richard

Re:  .20

Indeed, Bonnie, the Bible does give a reason as to why someone would not
be raptured.  But so as not to spoil the surprise, I'll let you read it
for yourself in Revelation.  :-)

Collis

    re 20
    
    Bonnie, I just started the note on UFO correspondences, and your
    comment brings to mind another good one.  
    
>            <<< Note 235.20 by WMOIS::REINKE "Hello, I'm the Dr!" >>>

>    The philosophy of consciousness implied by the Edgar Cayce readings (as
>    I understand it)  strongly implies that the events described in
>    Revelation are primarily a personal experience for which each of us is
>    destined.  The readings do not deny, so far as I know, an eschatology
>    for the human race, as well.
    
    You say E Cayce believes "events in Revelations are primarily a
    personal experience" (and I do too), it's also described this way in
    the book I recently purchased, Transformation, by Whitley Scrieber. 
    He says, that these Visitors don't plan to ever make a general
    announcement that they're here, but that there're coming "soul by soul"
    for us, everyone, as they become ready will be visited.
    
    ...excuse me...

    Stephen,
    
    there are two Reinkes in this file...
    
    the note you quoted was from my husband, Don "I'm the DR"
    Reinke...
    
    (anyone here an old Dr Who fan, btw?)
    
    Bonnie

re: Note 235.25 by Bonnie "bread and roses" 
    
>    (anyone here an old Dr Who fan, btw?)
    
Well, it depends on what you mean by "old".  Of course the good doctor is over 
749 years old, then again some of the episodes are "old", filmed in b&w, and
even the main character actor is expendable (what a concept!) 

Or perhaps I, a fan, am old (well, I don't *feel* too old, at least not 
today!)

So, with only a slight bit of caution, I'll admit that I'm an old Dr Who fan.

.-)

Jim

    One of the concepts that distinguishes Christianity from many Eastern
    religions is a sense of history.  Whereas the myths of Eastern
    religious thought have tended to present time in cyclical terms,
    Judaism and Christianity have creation myths that present the world as
    having a definite beginning.  John Cobb argues that the concept of the
    world as creation is *the* characteristic Judaeo-Christian doctrine. 
    By defining the world as creation, we perceive God as its Ultimate
    source, and thus the world is always in some way dependent on God.

    Judaism traditionally viewed God as acting in history.  In particular,
    God was seen as the agent of the history of His chosen people; this
    occurred, for example, in the context of the liberation from Egypt, the
    exile, and the return from exile.  In addition, Christianity views God
    as revealing Him/Herself historically through the life of Jesus Christ.

    But if history has a beginning, does it also have an end?  Prophetic
    eschatology in the Bible often came conditionally:  the people were
    urged to repent their ways, or else face the consequences.  If they did
    repent, they were spared the consequences that they were warned of.  The
    rather humorous Old Testament story of Jonah illustrated this lesson
    very well.

    I believe that the future is not yet decided.  We may very well destroy
    ourselves or our planet.  God is calling out to us, pleading with us to
    beat our swords to plowshares--to reconcile ourselves to each other, to
    the Earth, to God.  The task at hand is the same as it was in Jesus's
    day--to build the Kingdom/Queendom of God.  Realized eschatology refers
    to the notion that the future is breaking in on the present.  Are we
    going to listen to the Divine Lure, or not?  The future will disclose
    itself in good measure.  As each moment develops, we exercise our
    choices, and those choices will help to determine the future.

    -- Mike

The End of Times thoughts often have me wondering if our "limited time only"
marketing techniques evolved from loftier tracts than used-car slogans.
I wonder whether the fast-buck artist often seen on used-car lots has 
a place within theology. Perhaps theology is gaited on what the market 
will bear; personally I hope P.T. Barnum's observations about birth do not 
have philosophical grounding.

Once when discussing the End of Times with a retired minister, the gentleman 
observed,"When I was going through seminary, my teachers told us 'Boys, Christ 
is coming in your generation. There is no need to take out life insurance, 
your families won't need it.' I heeded their advice and now I am ten years 
into my retirement and I am deeply concerned that I have not provided for my 
family properly."

After observing high-pressure last-chance used-car salesmen, I wonder how
many through time have succumbed to similar sirens.

A classicist observed to me if we spend our lives living for the future, 
we are condemned to never see it. 

Perhaps we should live each day as if it is our last. If the End of Time 
arrives our lives will not be a disappointment but if it doesn't we will 
not be cheated.

Best wishes,
Rollyn

re Note 235.28 by USCTR1::RTRUEBLOOD:

> Perhaps we should live each day as if it is our last. If the End of Time 
> arrives our lives will not be a disappointment but if it doesn't we will 
> not be cheated.
  
        I think that this is essentially what Jesus said in various
        ways that we needed to be prepared constantly for his return
        (see Matthew 25 for the virgins and the lamps).  While I
        would agree that the primary meaning of these is probably
        Christ's second coming to the world, I would also argue that
        it applies to the personal coming of Christ that each of us
        will experience at the End of Our Time.

        Bob

MORE CULTS MAY PREDICT END OF WORLD AS YEAR 2000 APPROACHES
     By Carol Cirulli
     WACO, Texas, March 1, Reuter - The approach of the year 2000 is likely to
spur more predictions of the end of the world from religious cults like the one
now under siege in Texas after a gun battle that left six people dead, according
to experts.
     But few, if any, are likely to turn to violence, as did the Branch Davidian
sect on Sunday when they fought with U.S. federal agents at their compound 10
miles (16 km) east of the small town of Waco.
     Outbursts of sudden, deadly violence, sometimes accompanied or sparked by
hysteria -- and in one sensational case directed at the cult members themselves
in the form of mass suicide -- are not new.
     At Jonestown, Guyana, 15 years ago, 914 followers of paranoid American
pastor the Reverend Jim Jones obeyed his order to join him in death by drinking
a cyanide-laced fruit drink.
     Charles Manson, now incarcerated in a maximum-security prison, carved a
swastika into his forehead and led a sect that professed satanic beliefs and
butchered seven people, including pregnant actress Sharon Tate.
    Federal officials have put some extreme religious groups under stricter
surveillance that will make obtaining weapons and recruiting new members more
difficult, experts said.
     Nearly all religions, including Christianity, believe in some form in an
ultimate day of judgemnent or an Armageddon when a final battle between good and
evil will be fought.
     Many more extreme religous groups have over the centuries picked various
dates for the world to end.
     A South Korean doomsday cult predicted the world would have ended last
October, and members sold their property as they prepared for the end, but the
day came and ended without gun battles and the cult's leaders were exposed as a
fraud.
     "More and more groups will likely spring up saying the end of the world is
near as we get closer to the year 2000," said Steven Hassan, an expert on cult
activities in Boston.
     Groups such as the Branch Davidians believe they are preparing for a battle
that will mark the end of time and the second coming of Jesus Christ.
     It's not the first time the Davidian sect, started in 1934 when Victor
Houteff split from the Seventh-Day Adventist Church in Los Angeles and moved to
Waco in 1935, has predicted the end. In Waco, his following grew and by 1940 the
group had 64 residents before he died in 1955.
     His wife, Florence, predicted the world would end on April 22, 1959, the
Jewish Passover, and hundreds of followers disposed of their property to join
the group.
     The group later waited for a sign which was believed to be the resurrection
of founder Houteff, who was to return just before Christ, according to experts
who have documented the sect.
     The sect splintered in 1959 after the world did not end on the appointed
day and a large group of the remaining 450 members left with rival leader Ben
Roden. David Koresh, the 33-year-old current leader, wrested control of the sect
from Roden's son George in the late 1980s.
     The sect is now holed up in their Texas compound surrounded by about 200
federal agents.
     The Texas group is said to have a stockpile of weapons that Koresh has been
hoarding for what he has said would be a great battle as the end of the world
approaches.
     Koresh and other group members exchanged gunfire for about an hour Sunday
morning with agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms about 10
miles east of Waco.
     Four agents were killed and 15 were wounded in their attempt to arrest
Korech for weapons violations. Two cult members, including a two-year-old child,
were presumed dead.
     Experts said such cults tend to flourish in times of economic and personal
troubles by preying on the hardship in peoples' lives and use mind-control
techniques.
     The sect's followers come from Australia, New Zealand, Canada, England and
the United States, local authorities said.
     "People tend to find answers in various ways," said David Schneider, a Rice
University psychology professor in Houston. "They flourish from time to time and
this is nothing new."
     Hassan, a former member of the Unification Church, said the sect is similar
to other cults in that the group has a leader who claims to be divine and
controls all behaviour.
     Women in the sect make up the "House of David" and the children they
produce with Koresh will supposedly rule the Earth with him after they kill
non-believers, experts said.
     Men are told they will receive their mates in heaven and are not allowed to
have sex with women members, they said.
     One expert said there were probably one or two dozen "bonafide large cults"
in the United States and Canada with a total membership of about 30,000.
     "If you are talking about the number of people who are deeply involved, the
number is quite small," said Laird Wilcox, a Kansas-based expert on extremist
groups.
  REUTER JG LD JE

    
	[ Here is another view of the Book of Revelations for your
    	[ consideration.  It is only posted here for your information
    	[ and should be accepted or rejected by the individual as his/her
    	[ own consciousness dictates.  
	[ Sources: The Apocalypse and Initiation by Daisy E. Grove
	[          A Mystery Scroll and its key by E. L. Gardner

	   Apocalypse means "unveiling", here meaning illumination or
	Initiation.  Thus, this book describes, under heavily veiled
	imaginery, certain ordered steps in the path of Initiation.
	It has for its theme (hu)man's final liberation by rebirth
	in the deathless solar body, his release from incarnation and
	his entrance upon a higher spiral of evolution.

	   The title, Revelation of St. John, would make it appear that it
	is John who undergoes the experience, whereas the sub-title states
	that it is Jesus the Anointed (we remember that Christ, like
	Buddha, is a title, not a name) who receives the revelation.  
	In reality, these two stand for the higher and lower principles
	in the same individual.  

	   God is the giver of the Revelation, Jesus the Anointed represents
	the higher mind, and John represents the lower mind (servant of the
	higher), to which illumination is opened up on higher planes.

	   In those early days, drmatic presentations were the means,
	almost the only means, of teaching spiritual truth, and they
	were widely employed.  The mystery tradition of St. John's time
	is concerned with (hu)man's spiritual nature and experience.

	   The drama of the Apocalypse encompasses seven acts:

		Act   I.-  Opening of the Seals
		Act  II.-  The Sounding of the Trumpets
		Act III.-  The War in Heaven
		Act  IV.-  The Harvesting
		Act   V.-  The Outpouring of the Vials
		INTERLUDE: The Vision of Babylon
		Act  VI.-  The Last Judgment
		Act VII.-  The Marriage 

	   The main key (Man) to the book of Revelation is given no less 
	than four times in the book, twice at the beginning in Chapter I, 
	and twice at the end in Chapters XXI, XXII. Here it is:

		I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA,
		THE BEGINNING AND THE ENDING.
		THE FIRST AND THE LAST,
		WHICH IS, WHICH WAS, AND WHICH IS TO COME.

	   Another key are the terms used to describe the different bodies
	used by Spirit on the different planes of manifestation, they are
	referred to in the New Testament as the spiritual body, the psychic
	body and the physical body.  In Indian literature they are referred
	to as the causal body, the subtle body and the gross body. A fourth
	body is sometimes alluded in mystical writings, it is called in
	Sanskrit "kama rupa", the form engered by lust, and it comes into
	existence only after death of the physical body.

	   In mystical writings these bodies are made to correspond to the 
	four occult elements, and also to the sun, moon and earth, and hence
	are given the names air-body, water-body, fire-body, lunar-body and 
	solar-body.

	   Throughout the book, groups of seven are found on every page;
	they have obviously a special significance.  The variety is
	surprising, and all serve a purpose.
		7 angels  - 7 beasts  - 7 candlesticks  - 7 churches
		7 crowns  - 7 eyes    - 7 heads         - 7 horns
		7 kings   - 7 lamps   - 7 mountains     - 7 plagues
		7 seals   - 7 spirits - 7 stars	        - 7 thunders	
		7 trumpets- 7 vials   		

	   These seven relate symbolically to the seven principles of
	(hu)man's constitution, or to their septenary subdivisions, or to
	the sevenfold divisions of the elements and planes of nature. 
	For example, the seven orifices in the head: 2 ears, 2 eyes, 
	2 nostrils, and a mouth.  The seven senses: hearing, touch, sight,
	taste, smell and the future two, psychic feeling and telepathy,
	at the present only slightly active.  

	   The seven seals of Chapter VI are the seven psychic and spiritual
	force-centers (chakras), broken successively as humanity learns how
	to use its personal and latent powers.  These are also referred to
	as the seven lamps and the seven candlesticks.  Again, they are the
	seven seals, for the scroll which they close is the human body, quite
	accurately described as "written inside and at the back", in allusion
	to the spinal column.

	In the symbolism of the Apocalypse, the conqueror is he who has
	opened the seven seals (chakras), heard the seven thunders (secret
	words of Initiation), conquered the seven horned dragon (lower
	passional nature), and who finally himself becomes the internal
	fire, light or sun (the pure white light which has reabsorbed the
	seven rays or colors of which it is composed).  

	   The various other actors are but different aspects of his own 
	nature.  The enemies arrayed against him are the unredeemed elements 
	of his own lower nature.

	   Armagedon is the name given to the age long struggle between the 
	two 'selves' of (hu)man(s), his personal nature (lower self) and his 
	spiritual principles (higher Self), a struggle ultimately resolved by 
	their union.   Till the 'marriage of the Lamb', the conflict continues. 

	   The Bible begins with the creation of Man (The Beginning) in the 
	book of Genesis, and ends with the perfecting of Man (The Ending) 
	in the Book of Revelation.  In between, we have the record of the 
	trials and temptations with which Man is met upon the way, of his 
	dangers and difficulties, his repeated failures and ultimate attainment;
	it is from first to last, a manual of soul experience, and it is
	brought to a close in the Apocalypse with the account of the final
	stages of his perfecting.

	   In the allegory of the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve represent
	a duality of form and life, body and soul, matter and spirit.  The
	names themselves reveal this, Adam signifies "earth" and Eve "breath"
	or "life".  The story represents the soul attracted by desire (the
	serpent) entering the realm of generation and so becoming "subject
	to the man" (coming under the dominion of matter) in that state,
	to suffer a long and painful servitude.

	   The name ADAM has a numerical value of 144, and this, "the measure
	of a man" is also the measurements of the city.  The form, then, in the
	beginning, the mortal sheath of an animal-human consciousness, becomes
	at the final stage the shining garment of immortality.  The life
	ensouling the contininuously changing form is the Woman.  At the
	beginning, as Eve, she is the soul caught in the enchantment of maya
	(illusion) of the phenomenal worlds, and for long ages is imprisoned
	therein.  At the end, she becomes the Celestial Woman, "clothed with
	the sun", received back in a glorified state to conscious union with
	the Spirit.

	   In the Book of Revelation, the subjection is ended, for the
	opposing forces are reconciled and these two are made one, the outer
	as the inner.  The Holy City is the sublimated form (now a spiritual
	body), the perfect expression of the purified soul, the wedding garment
	with which the Bride has been "made ready" for the mystic marriage.

	   This New Jerusalem is man-woman raised to the order of Divinity,
	self-begotten within the androgynous organs of the brain.  In this
	allegory, the bridal City is the Initiate himself as he appears clothed
	in the Solar body.  

	   The serpent or dragon in its aspect of desire, once the tempter,
	has been conquered and cast out by the soul's striving and attainment,
	thus fulfilling the prophecy of Genesis: "The seed of the woman
	(spiritual activity resulting from the labor of the soul) shall bruise
	the head of the serpent", for only through this inner warfare can the
	desire-life be transcended and liberation attained.

	   The river of Eden which parted into four heads signifies the
	dispersal of energy to different levels of activity, the separating
	of the life-force into the varying vibratory rates of the physical,
	emotional, mental and spiritual planes with their corresponding modes
	of consciousness.  The four cardinal points are mystically the four
	planes of consciousness: North=body, West=mind, South=soul, and
	East=spirit.  

	   Of the four rivers which went out of Eden, it is the fourth, the 
	Euphrates, whose course turned "towards the East", which symbolizes 
	the spiritual element in man, and this is the river which alone is 
	named in the Apocalypse.  It now appears in the midst of the street
	of the Holy City, clear as crystal and life-giving.  This also refers
	to the serpent-fire (kundalini), now flowing through the spinal column
	having replaced the former vital current, and thus imparted "life"
	(enormously quickened rate of vibration) on an altogether higher
	level of consciousness.

	   In the center of the Garden of Eden were two trees (the tree of
	life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil).  In the Holy City
	one tree remains, the duality of mortal existence (good and evil)
	having been unified in the higher consciousness.  

	   The twelve manner of fruits, one for each month of the year, are 
	results of expressions of the Initiate's matured faculties and powers,
	while the leaves "for the healing of nations" symbolize the manifold
	outspreading of the spiritual life in beauty and service.

	   Corresponding to the twelve fruits and bearing the same significance,
	are the 12 gates of the city, associated with the tribes of Israel.  
	As the sun within the shining circle of the Zodiac, so is the spiritual
	self (the Lamb) centered in the luminous body, "having the glory of
	God".  The light emitting stone has been identified with the opal,
	in which all colors gleam in a flashing, fiery glow.

	   The wall of the city is the aura.  Its foundations, upon which the
	names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb are written, are 12 force-centers
	within the body; its "gates", with the attendant angels, are the
	corresponding points of contact in the aura.  At every gate there is
	a pearl.  The pearl is found by diving into the sea, and is thus a
	symbol of the treasure earned and qualities unfolded by the soul's
	immersion in the waters of desire.

	   The precious stones of which the city is built, of 12 kinds, 
	signify the rainbow coloring and brilliantly flashing fire of the aura.
	The city itself is built of gold, "like unto clear glass", descriptive
	of the solar fire, dazzling, yet translucent, which now fills every
	avenue of life and permeates the whole being.

	   In the opening of the "seals" (chakras), the Initiate experienced 
	successive Illuminations, the liberation of new currents of spiritual 
	energy by which he has awakened to higher modes of consciousness.  
	In the "sounding of the trumpets", by which Great Voices from Beyond 
	have thundered forth mighty Words of Powers, secrets were imparted only
	to those who have gained the mystic heights of inner, spiritual 
	perceptions.

	   In the Harvest, he witnessed the in-gathering of the result of 
	the cycle of incarnation, now transmuted to spiritual power.  He has
	passed through the tests of Fire and Water; the first, the "War in
	Heaven", that dread conflict in which the whole strength and power
	of the lower self had to be met and resisted; the second, the 
	Outpouring of the Vials, in which the final purification ordeals had
	to be endured; while in the Judgment, last and most terrible trial,
	he has been confronted with his own past and the totality of evil
	engendered by himself.  

	   This supreme testing ended and the last vestiges of impurity
	removed, Divine Union is established in the Heavenly Marriage.  The
	Conqueror receives his reward; as Perfected Man, he enters upon the
	spiritual kingdom.  The Pilgrim of the Ages has achieved his goal,
	he goes forth no more.  Of him, it is written: "Behold!  thou hast
	become the Light, thou hast become the Sound, thou art the Master
	and the God."	

	   [ Many of you may ask why the author went to so much trouble
	   [ to hide the actual meaning of the Apocalypse in the first
	   [ place; the reason is that back on those times, this Gnosis,
	   [ or secret science, was guarded with jealous care, being
	   [ imparted only to a comparative few who were deemed worthy
	   [ of Initiation, according to the maxim: "Many are called, 
	   [ but few are chosen".   Secrecy has always been maintained
	   [ regarding the sacred science, so as to guard it; since the
	   [ power its possession confers would be destructive to them
	   [ and injurious to their fellow-men.

		ACT I (OPENING OF THE SEALS, Chapt. II)
	 
	THE SEVEN CHURCHES IN ASIA.
	   The seven churches to which special messages are sent, are again 
	the seven force-centers (chakras) within the human constitution, which 
	have, in the dense physical vehicle, their representative organs.  
	Four are in the body and three in the head, but not all are active.  
	To "open the seals" successively, as done by the Lamb, is to arouse 
	one by one these dormant forces to activity.

	   A church or community, indicates a group of people linked together 
	for some collective work; it is used here to describe a nervous 
	ganglion, which consists of nucleated cells acting as a center of 
	force to the fibres connected with it.  It may be remarked that there 
	is no record whatever of some of these churches as actual religious 
	communities.  As was mentioned earlier, these refer to the seven 
	spiritual force centers (chakras).

        One of the messages to the church of Pergamos quoted from the Bible 
	is explained in some detail:

	   "And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write: These things
	    saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges:

	    I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's
	    seat is; and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied
	    my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful
	    martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

	    But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there
	    them that hold the doctrime of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast
	    a stumblingblock before the children of Israel to eat things
	    sacrified unto idols, and to commit fornication.

	    So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes,
	    which thine I hate.

	    Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight
	    against them with the sword of my mouth.

	    He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the
	    churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden
	    mana, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new
	    name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

	   Each of the messages to the churches begins with the significant
	statement: "I know thy works", meaning: the peculiar nature and 
	function of each center is known to the Higher Self, hence there are
	certain activities demanded of each and certain warnings uttered.
		
	   The messenger which had the sharp sword with two edges is the
	compelling power of spiritually directed Will.  The center here in
	consideration is particularly connected with the sympathetic nervous
	system and the desire nature;  the solar plexus being the "throne of
	the Beast" and "Satan's seat".

	   This indicates self-will as opposed to the Divine will, the limiting
	and separative element ever rebelling against spiritual unitive
	endeavor.  A curious piece of symbolism is presented.  Who was Antipas,
	the faithful witness, "slain where Satan dwells"?.  Scholars have
	failed to find any record of such a martyr or any satisfactory Greek
	derivation for the word.

	   Pryse shows that it can be deciphered as an anagrammatical puzzle
	yielding the word MANTIS, which means "second sight".  This faculty
	is referred to by Plato as located in the liver, employed there by
	the higher mind as its oracle or witness to the lower nature.  If this
	be meant, the martyr Antipas might stand for certain psychic senses
	which had been debased through misuse.

	   The disciple is commended in that even through the dangers of a
	false psychism, he had held to a right perception of Reality, and so
	preserved the realization of his true, spiritual being.

	   The references to the doctrine of Balaam is a warning against the
	unlawful use of psychic powers; for to "eat things sacrified unto 
	idols" indicates the turning to base use of any faculty that was
	designed to serve the divine purpose only.  Similarly, the sin of
	fornication, here as elsewhere in the Bible, means the defilement
	of spiritual powers through association with a carnal element.  

	   The teaching of the Nicolaitanes, again referred to here, stand
	for certain pseudo-occult sects which practiced sex magic.  The 
	reward to him who, by the exercise of spiritual will, is victorious 
	in this strife, is the "hidden mana" (Gnosis or secret wisdom), by 
	which strength and power is conferred.

	   The further reward is the white stone (established consciousness
	on the higher planes).  The "new and secret name written therein" is
	the knowledge within the Self of the changed, transmuted nature,
	a "new name" here, as invariably in the Bible, signifies an expansion
	of consciousness experienced, a higher vibratory rate established.
	  
           A white stone, with mystic characters engraved, was common to
	many of the Mysteries, the meaning of the letters being communicated
	to the Initiated alone.  A similar token survives in one of the 
	present-day Masonic degrees.  In older religions, such engraved
	stones or tablets were buried with the dead, that they might be
	provided with the secret passwords giving admission to the higher
	worlds.

	   "The seven lamps burning" represent the projection of the Spirit
	outwards to the planes of phenomenal existence (a septenary Universe),
	bringing the evolving individuality under the planetary order.

	   The twenty four elders wearing crowns upon their heads represent
	the twelve constellations of the Zodiac, doubled, (each having its
	dual aspect), the golden crowns symbolizing the light shed by these
	stars.  The outermost circle denotes the realm of incarnation in
	which the soul has undergone long cycles of human experience and
	over the forces of which it has now attained to rulership.  These
	elders have harps in their hands, and their music swells the chorus
	or praise, again signifying the harmonious co-operation of all the
	varied elements in Man with the Divine purpose.

	   The four Beasts around the throne are frequently presented in the
	Bible as (1) a calf, (2) a lion, (3) a man or angel, and (4) an eagle.
	These are the astrological signs of Taurus the Bull, Leo the Lion,
	Aquarius the Water Bearer, and Aquila the Eagle (substitute for
	Scorpio the Serpent), which placed at the cardinal points of the
	Zodiacal circle, for the well-known celestial cross, sometimes the 
	four arms of the Sun.  They correspond both to the natural elements 
	of earth, water, fire and air and to the fourfold constitution of 
	Man's body, soul, mind and spirit.

	   The 144,000 of Chapters VII and XIV is the number of the rays
	of energy generated by the chakras.  The rays of energy in the
	chakras are as follows: base of the spine (4), spleen (6), solar
	plexus (10), heart (12), throat (16).  These five together add up
	to 48.  In the head are two which are to become active in the future,
	the pituitary and the pineal, each with 48 rays.  The total is now
	144.  Then there is the crown which the conqueror wears, this is
	really the thousand-petalled chakram, as it is called in eastern
	occultism.  This is said to multiply the powers of the chakras a
	thousand fold, and the conqueror, Man, can then ascend into heaven,
	that is, can touch the high spiritual planes self-consciously.

	   The Holy City is the perfected (hu)man clothed in his glory body.
	The city is in the form of a cube, which is a square raised to a
	higher dimension, meaning, material existence lifted to a higher
	level of being by a process of transmutaion.  The twelve gates of
	the city are all the avenues of perception, trained and utilized
	both as ways of approach to spiritual consciousness and means for
	its expression.

	   The seven thunders or voices are the secrets of initiation as
	they are revealed one by one, imparting knowledge of occult powers,
	mystery teachings, which in the language of the apostle, it is
	"unlawful to reveal".  They must be "sealed up" in the heart of
	the recipient.  After these teachings are communicated, "time is
	no longer".  This marks the stage at chich the consciousness of
	the personality is transcended; the disciple is henceforth no longer
	bound by the illusion of time, but awakened to the simultaneous
	awareness of the spirit.

	   The twelve tribes, stones, gates of the city, etc. refer to the
	Zodiacal circle, signifying the functions and faculties in Man
	governed by these signs.  They represent all the methods by which
	the Spirit may find expression through humanity, being at the same
	time the avenues of approach by which the human reaches through
	to the Divine.

	THE FOUR HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE (Chapt. V).
	   The horse represents energy made available for the rider or driver,
	an energy which, however necessitates control by him who rides or
	drives, if he himself would not be carried away by it.  From very
	ancient times the horse has been used as a symbol of the mind acting
	as a vehicle for the Spirit.

	   The horsemen then, are the various forces inherent in the
	neophyte's own nature, stimulated to intense activity by the
	energizing of the Spirit (the Lamb), who "opens the seals", meaning
	"awakens the centers", and so liberates energy at every level.

	   The 'four horses' dramatically represent the four bodily principles 
	of the human constitution -physical, emotional, mental (lower and 
	higher), which are 'ridden' by (hu)man(s).  

	OPENING THE FIRST SEAL.
		"And I saw, and behold a white horse; and he that sat
		 on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him; and 
		 he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

	   The white horse is here made to appear in association with the 
	lowest center of force.  He is described as starting forth with his 
	newly acquired 'coat of skin' a 'white horse', the physical body, 
	'conquering and to conquer', setting forth the warrior on his path.   

	   Later, when the perfecting work is nearing completion, the white
	horse reappears, equipped for the final battle, from which it emerges
	victorious, one with the Lamb, the conqueror.  He then symbolizes the
	Spiritual Self, which, having triumphed over the lower elements, reigns
	supreme.  Henceforth, he is established as a spiritual sun, the center
	and ruler of his being, for his eyes are "as a flame of fire", and
	"on his head many crowns". 

	   The white-clad armies that follow him are his purified thoughts 
	and faculties, disciplined and arrayed; his new name "the Word of God",
 	proclaims him a true reflection of the Logos, or God-in-Man.

	OPENING THE SECOND SEAL.
		"And there went out another horse that was red; and power
		 was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the
		 earth, and that they should kill one another; and there
		 was given unto him a gret sword."

	   The red horse, like the red dragon, symbolizes passion, the lower 
	astral principle.  This horseman is associated with the solar plexus.
	At this stage, every unconquered element, every uncorrected tendency
	and possibility of future assail by temptation must be faced and
	conquered once and for all.  Hence, "peace is taken from the earth"
	(physical body),  for the conflict must be waged and ended during 
	physical incarnation.

	   The 'red dragon' is the desire life of the lower emotions, 'red'
	being an allusion to the passional nature, called the devil and
	Satan because it offers the fiercest temptation and dangers to the
	evolving soul.  

	OPENING THE THIRD SEAL.
		"And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on
		 him had a pair of balances in his hand.  And I heard a
		 voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure
		 of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for
		 a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine."

	   The black horse corresponds to the lower mind, the "beast", whose 
	number is 666. Famine accompanies his passage.  "A measure of wheat 
	for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny", suggests that 
	but meagre is the substinence he has to offer and dearly to be 
	purchased.  That scarcity and semi-famine follow in his wake, alludes 
	to the barrenness and poverty of the un-illumined intellect.  The 
	injunction "hurt not the oil and the wine" (to partake but sparsely 
	of them) illustrates its scarcity of love (oil) and spiritual wisdom 
	(wine). 

	   The "beast" is the lower mind, the concrete mind in association
	with desire, that element of the thinking principle which is ever
	"the slayer of the real", which causes illusion and error, here
	Truth is obscured, and Man is confused by false seeming.   Its number 
	is 666, which is the numerical value of the letters composing the 
	Greek name for lower mind (HE PHREN).  In the Greek number system, 
	the letters have certain values, and the word HE PHREN adds up to 666.

	OPENING THE FOURTH SEAL.
		"And I looked, and behold a pale horse; and his name that
		 sat on him was Death, and Hell followed him. And power was
		 given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill
		 with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the
		 beasts of the earth."

	   The pale horse, represents the generative principle on the 
	physical plane and is the lowest of the four divisions.   Its twin
	riders, death and hell for his riders (the destructive elements of the 
	physical and psychic planes), and they have power to injure the outer
	or sense nature, which is "one fourth" (one division only) of Man's
	being.  The center associated with this rider is the throat, which is
	associated with Virgo, the sign governing the womb.  


	OPENING THE FIFTH SEAL.
		"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the
		 altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of
	 	 God, and for the testimony which they held;

		 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord,
		 holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on
		 them that dwell on the earth ?.

		 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it
		 was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little
		 season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren
		 that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

	   Those that are described as lying "slain under the altar" are the
	brain centers, until now inert and dormant.  Of them it is declared
	that they must "wait", 'rest yet for a season' (remain in that state 
	of suspended activity) until their "brethren" (the centers within the 
	body) should also be awakened, but the "white robes" given to them at 
	this stage indicate the light already beginning to pulsate in the aura 
	of the brain centers.

	They are the last two centers to be awakened, psychic feeling and
	telepathy. which will enable (hu)man(s) consciously to touch two inner
	planes and the time is not ripe for this extension yet. The promise 
	made, however, that in the future 'they shall prophesy' (Chapter XI, 3)

	OPENING THE SIXTH SEAL.
           	"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, 
		 there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as 
		 sackcloth; and the sun became black as sackloth of hair, 
		 and the moon became as blood;

	         And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth; even as a fig
		 tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a
		 migthy wind.

		 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is scrolled
		 together; and every mountain and island were moved out of
		 their places.

	   It is at this point that the serpent-fire (having been preceded by
	the side currents of Ida and Pingala) begins its upward flow through
	the central spinal column into the brain.  This is described as the
	"great earthquake", for at this stage, the neophyte may experience
	most violent shock and terror, bloting out all light of normal
	perception and paralyzing all thought and action on the lower planes.

	   It is of this moment that it has been written: "In the sixth stage
	of development... every sense as an individual faculty has to be
	"killed" (or paralyzed) on this plane, passing into and merging with
	the seventh sense, the most spiritual."

	   In the opening of Chapter VII, a vision is recorded of four angels.
	These are the Karmic forces (The Lords of Karma), by which reward and
	retribution for past action are dealt out and the law of cause and
	effect adjusted.  They are the guardians of the "four corners of the
	earth", for they watch over the whole expanse of human life, as it
	manifests on the planes of phenomena.

	   They are here represented as holding back the destroying element
	from the physical (earth) and astral (sea) principles, and also
	preserving the results of mental activity (trees) until the "sealing"
	or initiation is completed.

	   There rises then, from the East (the place of light), the fifth and
	dominating angel, who confers the seal of the Divine approval and
	acceptance upon the aspirant.  The imprint of a circle (ring) upon
	his forehead signifies the imparting of a mystic sign or token, one
	of the marks of initiation.  It may also allude to the application
	by the Initiator of the Rod of Power, now focused upon the brain 
	centers.  

	   That the whole nature is thereby sanctified and raised to a higher
	rate of vibration is indicated by the subsequent sealing of the
	144,000.  These purified and liberated elements, with all the resultant
	thoughts and feelings, constitute the great multitude, which now
	assembled, burst forth into an exultant chrous of praise and thanks-
	giving.  They form three concentic circles around the throne, the
	four beasts (outermost), the alders and the angels.  The white robes
	and palms are symbolic of purity attained, victory achieved.

	OPENING THE SEVENTH SEAL.
	   The last of the seals, the seventh, is opened, after which there
	is "silence in heaven", for this center is the pineal gland, where
	the senses merge and where all the nervous forces are focused. 
	Hence here is found the equillibrium and there is experienced the
	mystic silence which succeeds to the turmoil of life centered in the
	outer consciousness.  So is written of this last stage: "The seventh
	swallows all the other souds.  They die, and then are heard no more."

I dropped the latter 3/5ths (approx) of the following article, which
appeared in my local paper last Saturday.

Peace,
Richard
==========================================================================
Postmillenialist says end-timers were looking at already-fulfilled
Bible texts

by Judy Tarjanyl
the Toledo Blade

	When Gary DeMar became a Christian in 1973, Hal Lindsay's
"The Late Great Planet Earth" was practically required reading for those
who claimed to be "born again."

	The book's prognostications about the imminent return of Christ
and the end of the world figured prominently into DeMar's conversion,
which took place while he was a student at Western Michigan University in
Kalamazoo.

	As DeMar started to study the Bible himself, however, he began
to question Lindsay's apocalyptic visions, joining a growing number of
people who a challenging what have been popular, long-held views about
the shape of things to come.

	According to DeMar, many end-times authors are wrongly basing
their predictions of Christ's second coming on Bible texts that have
already been fulfilled.

	For example, he said, the book of Revelation, which is frequently
cited in modern end-times predictions, was written to encourage Christians
who were being persecuted between 65 and 70 A.D.

	Likewise, he said, when the 24th chapter of Matthew's gospel
speaks of wars, rumors of wars, plagues, and famines, it is likely speaking
of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. than the second coming.

	Yet, DeMar said, such texts often are used by authors like Lindsay,
John Walvoord ("Armageddon," "Oil," and the "Middle East Crisis"), David Hunt
("Global Peace" and the "Rise of Antichrist"), and Charles Dyer ("The Rise
of Babylon")to support their theories about the coming Christ.

	When the Middle East erupted in turmoil during the 1991 Gulf War,
sales of such books skyrocketed.

	DeMar, who has stated his views in radio interviews, a debate with
David Hunt, and the 1991 book "Last Days Madness," said some people still
are antagonistic to his views, but many others are agreeing with him.

	DeMar, who edits The Biblical Worldview, a monthly newsletter published
by American Vision in Atlanta, said he now considers himself a postmillenial-
ist, one who believes that Christ's 1,000 year reign will occur in conjunction
with the Christianization of the world and be carried out through the church,
ushering in an era of peace.

.33

>	For example, he said, the book of Revelation, which is frequently
>cited in modern end-times predictions, was written to encourage Christians
>who were being persecuted between 65 and 70 A.D.

Is there anyone who *didn't* know this?

>	Likewise, he said, when the 24th chapter of Matthew's gospel
>speaks of wars, rumors of wars, plagues, and famines, it is likely speaking
>of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. than the second coming.

Yes, but in addition, has there been a generation which has not known
of these signs occuring somewhere in the world?

Shalom,
Richard

 Interesting theory on Matthew 24...I wonder if he read verse 3 however?




   Jim

    .35  I cannot say what DeMar has read.  I read it.  And I can see it
    through both sets of eyes (premillenialist and postmillenialist).
    
    Frankly, I find it all highly speculative, and really, a non-issue.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

 
 The way I look at it, Jesus said He's coming back and one of these days
 the curtain is going to close.  Whether one is post or premillenialist, while
 fun for debate and discussion, is inconsequential when one considers that 
 while that debate is going on people are dying and going to Hell.  Either
 way I expect to wind up in Heaven, and pre/post debate will be meaningless
 if my neighbors, family and friends don't.


 On the other hand, I question the wisdom of one being converted via the
 writings of Hal Lindsey rather than the testimony of the Scriptures and  
 the work of the Holy Spirit, though perhaps that was not fully stated in
 the article.



 Jim

.37

Actually, the rest of the article doesn't mention DeMar any further.
It goes into definitions and contrasts various views.

Except for what seem to be lingering notions about going either to
Heaven or Hell upon exiting this life, I would say we're pretty much
in agreement, Jim.

Shalom,
Richard

    With regards to explaining some of the symbolism in the Revelation
    of St. John the Divine, does the name 'Domitian' mean anything to
    you?
    
    Richard
    

re: Note 235.39 by Richard "Copernicus 3:16" >>>

>                                 -< Domitian >-

I don't know who you might have been addressing this question to, but...

As I recall, he was a Roman ruler who persecuted Christians.
Some believe it is his persecution that is obliquely refered to in the 
Revelation.

Peace,

Jim

    .40  Indeed, it would fit.  My point being that the revelation John
    wrote about may have already come to pass.
    
    Thoughts of others?
    
    Richard
    

    re: <<< Note 235.0 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Proud Sponsor FAWoL" >>>
                       -< Apocalypse/Eschatology/the End-times >-
    
    
    
  
    A snapshot of the last days:
    
    
    There are some interesting thoughts in Scripture concerning this
    subject.
    Biblebooks that highlight End of Times are named Apocalyptic books,
    especially the biblebook Revelation. i.e.: The last biblebook of the
    Greek-Scriptures.
    
    
    According to  =NIV Compact Dictionary of the Bible=
    The word Apocalyptic means "Revelation" or "Unveiling" and is applied
    to these
    writings because they contains revelation of the secret purposes of
    God, the end
    of the world, and the establishment of God's Kingdom on earth.
    
    
    
    Things seen by John, the beloved Apostle of Jesus,concerned the last
    days.
                    [John, the son of Zebedee, James brother]
    
    
    Starting with REV 5:1-6............
    
    
    
    And I saw in the right hand of the One seated upon the Throne a scroll
    written
    within and on the reverse side, sealed tight with "seven" seals. And I
    saw a
    strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice: "Who is worthy to open the
    scroll
    and loose its seal?"But neither in heaven nor upon earth nor underneath
    the
    earth was there a single one to open the scroll or look into it. And I
    gave way
    to a great deal of weaping because no-one was found worthy to open the
    scrollor
    to look into it. But one of the elders says to me: "Stop weaping Look!
    The Lion
    of the tribe of Judah, the root of David,has conquered so as to open
    the scroll
    and its "seven" seals.
    And I saw standing in the midst of the Throne and of the four living
    creatures
    and in the midst of the elders a Lamb as though it had been
    slaughtered, having
    seven horns and seven eyes, which eyes mean the seven spirits of God
    that have
    been sent forth into the whole earth.
    
    
    The One seated upon the Throne: That's Jehovah God the Sovereign Lord
    of the
    entire universal creation.
    The scroll sealed with seven seals contains highly important
    information and
    needs someone strong and righteous to broke the seals.
    The Lion that is of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, the Lamb:
    That's Jesus Christ the anointed one.
    
    Seven Horns and seven eyes: Horns in scriptures are often a symbol of
    Authority
    and Power. And the number "seven" symbolize completeness. So the lamb
    has
    totally control on the earth, as seen from heaven. From chapter 4 up
    till
    chapter 6 of biblebook Revelation we can draw a logical conlusion that
    Jesus
    Christ is by now King in heaven.
    
    This is just a glimp what happened in heaven when the Apostle John were
    invited
    to see what will happen in the last days of our old world. To get a
    better
    view, please start reading revelation chapter 4 up till chapter 5.
    
    This old world can roughly be divided into 2 Epoch.
    First epoch: From beginning of creation up till the deluge of waters
    upon the
    earth.
    Second epoch: After the deluge, when Noach's 3 sons and wives started
    all over
    new filling this earth with man [Human Beings].
    With this in mind, one can have a better understanding of Jesus
    teaching to his
    disciples about the last days; Matthew 24:33-39.He said that those days
    will be
    the same as were the time right before the deluge in Noach's days.
    
    
    Further unveiling of things seen by the Apostle John.     REV 6:1-15
    
    And I saw the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of
    the living
    creatures say with a voice as of thunder: "Come!". And I saw and Look!
    A white
    horse, and the one seated upon it had a bow, and a crown was given to
    him., and
    he went forth conquering and to complete the conquest.
    And when he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature
    say:
    "Come!". And another came forth a fiery-colored horse; and to one
    seated up it
    there was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should
    slaughtered one another, and a great sword was given him.
    And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature
    say:
    "Come!". And I saw and Look! A black horse; and the one seated upon it
    had a
    pair of scales in his hands. And I heard a voice as if in the midst of
    the four
    living creatures say: Aquart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts
    of barley
    for a denarius; and do not harm the olive oil and the wine.
    And when he opened the fouth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth
    living creature say: "Come!".
    And I saw and Look! A pale horse; and the one seated upon it had the
    name Death                       
    and hades was closely following him.
    And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth to kill
    with a
    long sword, and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by wild
    beast of
    the earth.
    
    Only the Lamb had authority to broke the seals.
    In Scriptures, a horse is often symbol of war. The one seated on a
    white horse is Jesus Christ. Him is given the power to conquer. 
    White is symbol of pure holiness.
    So this war is a righteous war and in advantage of this King.
    Remember him was given a crown.
    
    

    
    
    The second horse and the one seated upon it has authority to take the
    peace of
    this world away for for an unrighteous battle. This war is a war
    between people
    one against each other. See at the very moment all wars going
    on.National and
    international wars and bloodshare; and there are nowinners, only
    losers.
    
    
    the third horse; a black horse and the one seated upon it had a pair of
    scales.
    This shows us starvation bcause of food shortage. A few examples are
    Russia,
    a lot of countries in Africa, Asia and countries in Latin Amerca.
    And also in developed countries with high technology,we can notice
    this.
    
    In the times when John lives and were invited to see into the future,
    a denarius was the wage of a worker for a day work from sunrise till
    sundown.
    After every war things that follow is always food shortage, because
    everone
    involved in war, has no time doing agriculture and since money was
    needed to
    make war.
    
    
    The fourth horse; the pale one and the one seated upon it is a
    skeleton,and
    behind it follows Hades which is the greek word for grave.
    Since 1914, a very important figure if you are able to read Matthew
    24:33-34 to
    know for sure that we are living in the last days of this old world,
    millions
    of people died because of wars and disease like the Spanish flew.
    And researchers are now worried about how many people are going to die
    from new
    disease like; AIDS, HERPESand other sexual diseases.
    And new diseaeses pops up and lot are to come , but there is no cure
    for them
    on the short term.
    
    I hope you enjoy reading,
    This was only a snapshot of a nice guide to understanding the
    Apocalyptic book
    Revelation.
    In the month of October 1994 we will start with this book
    (Revelation-Its Grand
    Climax is at Hand) in a home biblestudy all over the world.
    If you are interested in this 319 page colored publication, why not ask
    for a
    copy when Jehovah's Witnesses rang at your door. It can help you gain
    eternal
    live in a paradise condition here on earth.
    
    End...
    
    
    
    
    

re: Note 235.42 by JGO::ODOR 

>                    [John, the son of Zebedee, James brother]

Just wondering...John was on the island of Patmos when he had his revelation.
I recall reading somewhere that "Patmos" was Latin or Greek (I forget which) 
for something or other which was relevant to the chapter.

Can anyone supply the translation (& anything else if you have it)?

Thanks,

Jim

   re:     <<< Note 235.44 by TFH::KIRK "a simple song" >>>
                                    -< curious... >-
    
    
Hallo Jim,
    
    About Patmos,it surely is a Greek word but the translation or what
    Patmos means I do not know.
    John was already an old man when he was exiled on that Island.
    The Island still exist, but is like al the other Islands in the Icarian
    see, no longer an Island for prisoners.
    Those Island like Patmos are nowadays used for agriculture.
    
    Just as information:
    John were taken as prisoner because of "spreading the good" news written
    in the 4 biblebooks i.e: Matthew, Marc Luke and John.
    That was the 15th government year of the Emperor Domitianus.
    When this Emperor died, John were released.
    
    Well Jim that's all I can help you about Patmos.
    Maybe someone else in this conference has more information about
    Patmos.
    
    

    Addendum to 235.46<<< Note 235.46 by FRETZ::HEISER "Maranatha!" >>>
                -< Fun with Math in Prophecy >-
    
  Calculations accoring to the Apocalyptic book of Daniel.(Dan chapter 4-9)
    =========================================================
    
    
 A person may ask: 'Where does the bible foretell the very year the Messiah
    apeared on earth?'
    
    The biblebook of Daniel says: "From the going forth of the word to
    restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Leader, there will be
    seven weeks, or all together 69 weeks, which amount to only 483 days,or
    a little more than one year. (pls read Daniel 9:25 ).
    
    Through the whole bible, there are times that the True Living God
    compares a solar day of 24 hours, with the rotation of the earth around
    the sun of one year. And sometimes even 1000 years as it was 1 day.
    I will show you some places in Scriptures where you can find this sorts
    of comparison.
    
    1>  Numbers 14:34 ;  By the numbers of days that you spied out the
    land, forty days, a day for a year, a day for a year you will answer
    for errors,forty years........
    
    2>  2Peter 3:8 ; and Psalm 90:4
    
    These 69 weeks, which amount to only 483 days, are however not 69
    literal weeks. They are 69 weeks of years, or 483 years.
    The command to restore and rebuild the walls of Jerusalem was givenin
    455 B.C.E. Refer to your ecyclopedia for 455 B.C.E. and look
    especially for the name Artaxerxes. (pls read Nehemia 2:1-8)
    Now doing a simple subtraction we get:             
    
    483-455=28 ;      And 28+1=29
    
    And 29 C.E. is the very year that Jesus came to John to be baptized!
    On that occasion he was anointed with holy spirit and became the
    Messiah, or Christ.   Luke 3:1-2, 21-23.
    
    A short history why an addition of +1 in the subtraction
    =========================================================
    
    On the one dimensional timescale when Rome was governing the old world,
    the figure null or zero  was not yet discovered.
    This number was first discovered by Indian mathematicians. So the one
    dimensional timescale in Roman times lokked like this:
    
    -----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----
         -3    -2    -1    +1    +2    +3         
    
    instead of:
    -----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----
         -3    -2    -1    0     +1    +2           
    
    
    Next time:     Seven Gentile Times ==== 2,520 Years
                   =====================================
    
    October, 607 B.C.E.---- October, 1 B.C.E. ==>  606  Years
    October,   1 B.C.E.---- October, 1914 C.E ==> 1,914 Years
    ----------------------------------------------------------
                       Grand Total                2,520 Years
    Ps:
    ===
    B.C.E. == Before Common Era
      C.E. ==        Common Era
        
    
    Next time:   Calculation of when did "THE LAST DAYS" begin!
                 -----------------------------------------------
    
    Refrence: You Can Live Forever In Paradise On Earth.
    
    
    Rgds,
    Alex
    

    Alex,
    
    I have this book.  There is a JW string so I will briefly state that 
    the Watchtower Society is notorious for justifying dates as to when the 
    end times will occur.  I don't have the data in front of me but the
    year 1914 has been revised on a few occasions in different editions of
    Awake!
    
    -Jack

Re: .47 Alex

>    The biblebook of Daniel says: "From the going forth of the word to
>    restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Leader, there will be
>    seven weeks, or all together 69 weeks, which amount to only 483 days,or
>    a little more than one year. (pls read Daniel 9:25 ).
    
	Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the
	word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an annointed
	one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks.  Then for sixty-two
	weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a
	troubled time.  And after the sixty-two weeks, an annointed one
	shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the
	prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
	Its [or "his"] end shall come with a flood, and to the end there
	shall be war; desolations are decreed.  And he shall make a strong
	covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall
	cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of
	abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed
	end is poured out on the desolator.
						Daniel 9:25-27 (RSV)

If you want to interpret the annointed one as being Jesus, then according
to the prophesy Jesus should have been born 49 years after the "going
forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem".  Once Jesus was born
Jerusalem should have been built again "with squares and moat", and Jesus
should have been "cut off" after a further 434 years (62 times 7).

Here's what Isaac Asimov says in "Asimov's Guide to the Bible":

	  One might see in this a reference to Jesus, particularly since
	the King James version capitalizes "Messiah" and "Prince".  The
	Revised Standard Version does not, however.  The phrase in 9:25 is
	rendered "an annointed one, a prince," and in 9:26, "an annointed
	one."  And we must remember that the writer of Daniel is speaking
	obscurely, at least to us.  His original readers would have had no
	trouble.

	  What the twenty-fifth verse seems to say is that seven weeks of
	years (forty-nine years) will pass from Jeremiah's prediction, or
	from the fall of the first temple in 586 B.C. to the coming of an
	annointed king who will make it possible to rebuild.  A passage of
	forty-nine years (seven times seven, a sacred number indeed)
	brings us to 537 B.C., which is indeed within a year of the time
	(538 B.C.) when Cyrus granted Jews permission to rebuild; and
	remember that Cyrus is specifically spoken of by the Second Isaiah
	as one whose hand God holds and therefore as an annointed king
	(see page 549 [ref. Isaiah 41:2]).

	  It is completely reasonable, then, to understand "Messiah the
	Prince" to signify Cyrus of Persia.  Following Cyrus are sixty-two
	weeks of years (434 years) during which Jerusalem exists as a
	city.  At the end of that time, 104 B.C., "shall Messiah be cut
	off".

	  This can't be the same Messiah spoken of in the verse before.
	In the first place, four and a third centuries have passed, and in
	the second, the first is a prince, a secular leader, and the
	second is not.  The second is merely "an annointed one"; that is,
	a High Priest.

Asimov goes on to give a theory that the annointed one (Messiah) that is
cut off was Onias III, a High Priest whose execution in 171 B.C. led to a
Jewish revolt against the Seleucids, resulting in the pillaging of
Jerusalem and the desecration of the Temple seven years later (a prophetic
week - see Daniel 9:27).

	  It may, therefore, be Onias III who is the Messiah that is cut
	off, although the date given in Daniel misses the actual date by
	sixty-six years.  (However, no one has been able to make the dates
	given in Daniel's vision come out both significantly and accurately.)

				-- Bob

This is the most amazing prophecy in the Bible to me.  Our God actually predicts
Jesus Christ's triumphal entry into Jerusalem down to the day!  Needless to say
I don't agree with your analysis of it.  Here's how I view it:

The Hebrew word for weeks ('shabua') can also be interpreted to be sevens.
This we pretty much agree on.  For another interesting use of this concept in
the Bible, refer to the story of Jacob and how he obtained Rachel for his wife
(Genesis 29:18-30 - served Rachel's father for 2 weeks or 14 years to gain her
hand in marriage).

The Jews followed a lunar calendar at that time, which consisted of 360 day
years (30 day months).  They would add a month when necessary to keep up with
the celestial bodies.  If you refer to Genesis 7-8, you see that the flood
lasted 5 months or 150 days (2nd month to the 7th month).  If you refer to
Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 12:6 you see that all the books of the Bible
refer to a prophetic month as 30 days.

The 70 7's are 490 years applied to the nation of Israel.  The 70 weeks are
divided into 3 groups: 7 weeks, 62 weeks, and 1 final week at the end.  It 
does not apply to the church as some suspect.  Look at what's going to be
accomplished in these 3 verses:

1. Transgression will be finished (v. 24)
2. End of sin will be made
3. Atonement for iniquity will be made
4. Everlasting righteousness will be brought in
5. Vision and prophecy fulfilled
6. The Most Holy (Holy of Holies) will be anointed

As of today, 4 of these 6 have been fulfilled.  All prophecy has not been
fulfilled to date.  The Holy of Holies in the true temple of God has not yet
been anointed.

In Daniel 9:2, God is referencing Jeremiah's desolation of Jerusalem.  In verse
25, the starting date of the prophecy is given.  We have to find the decree to
restore and rebuild Jerusalem and we know that there are 4 of them.  Only 1 of
the 4 fulfills prophecy because the other 3 had to do with allowing Jews to go
back to their homeland and/or rebuild the temple.  The emperor declared that
the temple always had to be rebuilt before the city was rebuilt so that the Jews
wouldn't rebel again.  No other decree besides the one in Nehemiah authorizes
the rebuilding of the temple *AND* the city.

The decree we want was issued by Artaxerxes in March 5, 444 BC (Hebrew calendar
is Nisan 1, 444 BC) and is referenced in Nehemiah 2:1-8.  The first 7 week
period is 49 years and the second 62 week period is 434 years.  In those first
49 years years, Jerusalem and the temple was rebuilt as prophecied.
Afterwards, we have 434 years before the Messiah would come into Jerusalem.

Going back to the beginning of the prophecy, which is the decree to rebuild
Jerusalem, we have 483 years (173,880 days) to the arrival of the Messiah in
Jerusalem (Zechariah 9:9).  The difference between 444 BC and 33 AD then is 476
solar years.  If you multiply 476 by 365.25 days (365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes,
45.975 seconds in an official year), the product is 173,855 days, 6 hours, 52
minutes, and 44 seconds.  We'll stick to 173,855 days for clarity's sake.  This
leaves only 25 days to be accounted for between 444 BC and 33 AD.  If you add
the 25 days to March 5 (of 444 BC), you come up with March 30 (of 33 AD) which
was Nisan 10 in 33 AD.  Jesus Christ was crucified that same week on April 3, 33
AD.

Did it happen?  Look at Luke 19:29-44.  This is the triumphal entry of Jesus
into Jerusalem.  We see Jesus weeping over Jerusalem because they didn't even
recognize "this their day" as He entered Jerusalem as their Messiah.
Furthermore, Jesus prophecied the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD as
punishment for them not recognizing their Messiah.

After the 62 weeks, the Messiah will be cut off or killed.  After this Jerusalem
will be destroyed again, the people will be scattered, and Jerusalem will 
continue to be the center of conflict until the very end of time.

Now we have the final 1 week period left and it deals with the nation of
Israel.  There is a gap between verses 25 and 27 and this isn't unusual in
prophetic writings.  Look at Ephesians 3:4-9.  Paul talks about how the OT
prophets saw the Messaianic writings as a straight road, without seeing the dips
in the road.  God had to work through the Gentiles and bring them into the
church as well and the OT writers never anticipated that.  Luke 4:14-21
elaborates on this.  Jesus was quoting Isaiah 61:1-2, but if you read verse 2
you noticed that He stopped at the comma.  The Jews saw it as 1 event in the
same day.  This was probably one of the reasons why they reacted so strangely
to Him reading that text.  The first coming was for forgiveness, grace, and a
way out of the coming wrath.  The second coming (rest of verse 2) was the time
of wrath.  There's a gap between the 2 events.  This is why those that feel the
final week should've happened 7 years after the Messiah's entry into Jerusalem
are wrong.

We've been waiting some 2,000 years now while God is bringing more into the
church (the Church Age).  In Acts 1:3-8, the disciples knew Jesus had
established Himself as the Messiah by rightfully asking about the next step.
Jesus answer in Acts 1:7 is the key hear and supports the verse that "No man
knows the day nor the hour..."  This final week will have an idefinite gap and
will be fulfilled in God's timing only.  Before this last week can happen, the
temple and Jerusalem had to be destroyed.  This first time this happened after
Messiah entered Jerusalem was in 70 AD (~40 years later).  This final week is
where the Antichrist will make a firm covenant with Israel, stop sacrifices in
the temple, and will defile the temple and begin the Great Tribulation
(Matthew 24:15-28).  This couldn't have happened in the first century AD.

    The sources I used are:
    
    Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict - Volume 1" (1979)
    Calvary Chapel Pastor Chuck Smith, tape 4977 (might have to double
           check the number)
    Calvary Chapel Pastor J. Mark Martin, tape DA015
    
Mike

    Hallo Jack,
    
    >I have this book.  There is a JW string so I will briefly state that
    >the Watchtower Society is notorious for justifying dates as to when
    >the  end times will occur.  I don't have the data in front of me but the
    >year 1914 has been revised on a few occasions in different editions of
    > Awake!
    
    
    But the matter is Jack, that since 1914 the world has undergo a totally
    facelift, if I may use that word.
    There are some authorithy who lived in those days and said that
    the world before 1914 was different than that after 1914.
    Things were nice and peacefully until the Big War started.
    And threafter there was a fall in morality,who got worser and worser
    up to our days.
    That what I had in mind when I posted the notes.
    I think you have to agree with me about 1914 in this context.
    
    
    Rgds,
    Alex
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Hallo Bob,
    
    I made a printout and will read it at home.
    
    Rgds,
    Alex

    Alex:
    
    First let me state that I do respect your desire for a closer
    relationship with God.  I see this exchange as two men with a desire
    to know God better.
    
    I must respectfully, yet deeply disagree with your premise that the
    world was alot more peaceful before 1914.  The only difference is that
    the world is on a far greater scale and technology has advanced.  
    But this does not, repeat...Does Not preclude that the world was more
    peaceful.  In fact, my opinion is that the world was more apostate
    during the dark ages than it is today not to mention the Roman Empire!!
    
    Now, I do concur that for the first time the world has the ability to
    destruct on a total scale.  However, I as a religious leader or a 
    leader wannabee could do the very same thing that Rutherford and others 
    have done by proclaiming, "The Return of Christ has come to fruition
    just as the Manhatten Project Became Complete"  Afterall, this was the
    dawn of the atomic age and would corroberate the trumpet judgements in
    Revelation.
    
    Personal opinion, the Watchtower Society is committing a great sin by
    making such a proclamation as 1914.  Our ministry isn't to determine
    exact dates, I believe this grieves the Father.  Yes, we are to watch
    for the signs of the times...That is All!
    
    -Jack

  re:    <<< Note 235.53 by AIMHI::JMARTIN >>>
    
    Alex:
    
       >> First let me state that I do respect your desire for a closer
       >>  relationship with God.  I see this exchange as two men with a
       >> desire  to know God better.
    
    
    Jack, first of all thanks for the way you see this.
    And that's exactly what I always have in mind when reasoning questions
    about the bible.
    
    I did read your letter, and I came to the conclusion that there will
    always be differences an point of views that are not to be solved.
    Only time and thouroughly study of the bible can change our point of view,
    because like the bible says:
    
    My own paraphrase:  the bible is like a lamp and it will shine brighter
                        the more often you study and practice it. The jewels
                        hidden in there will reveal itself with time.
    
    
    rgds, 
    Alex 
    
      
        

re .53

	Jack,

	Do you agree that the Bible foretold the first coming of
	the Messiah?. If you do, then why should not God foretell 
	the second coming of the Messiah? (which in a way is very
	important for the sheep in Jesus' illustration of the 
	"sheep & goats" to recognise). Or do you associate the 
	second coming with the end? (which no one knows when will 
	happen, only the Father).

	Btw as you have pointed out in your reply, the signs Jesus
	told his disciples to look for have happened throughout
	history. Was not Jesus' point that these would be on a
	grander & global scale and all happening around the same 
	time frame. If not what are you looking for ?.

	Phil.


	Note for those looking on, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that
	Jesus was installed as king in heaven in 1914, this is based
	on an interpretation of certain Scriptures. This was proclaimed 
	by the then called Bible Students, about 30 years before 1914.
	As Revelation 12 shows, this meant a time of woe for the 
	earth in line with the signs that Jesus gave to show his
	presense (parousia). During Christ's invisible presense a
	separating work would be carried out by himself and the 
	angels, as indicated by the illustration of the sheep and the 
	goats (Psalms 110:2, Matthew 25:31-46). In this illustration
	persons are judged on how they treat Christ's brothers, that
	is those who have the main responsiblity of proclaiming the 
	"good news" throughout the earth which in turn is another sign 
	of Jesus' presense (Matthew 24:14). 

          <<< Note 235.49 by GRIM::MESSENGER "Bob Messenger" >>>
                              -< Another interpretation >-
    Bob,
    
    I did read  your note last night, and compared the KJV against RSV.
    This is a big problem. At this point we can argue endlessly.
    There is indeed a big difference in translation between them.
    To know for sure, we have to back to the source, and that's 
    the original Hebrew. Only than we can come back and doing further
    reasoning.  That's all I can say.
    
    Rgds,
    Alex
    
     
    

Re: Note 235.55          
RDGENG::YERKESS "bring me sunshine in your smile"    35 lines  20-SEP-1994 09:04

      Hello Phil:

>>	Do you agree that the Bible foretold the first coming of
>>	the Messiah?. If you do, then why should not God foretell 
>>	the second coming of the Messiah? (which in a way is very
>>	important for the sheep in Jesus' illustration of the 
>>	"sheep & goats" to recognise). 

Oh, I certainly agree on the fact that the second coming is foretold by the
Hebrew prophets.  In fact, I believe Isaiah 9:6 is a dual prophecy on both the 
first and the second coming...and I believe it is very important that the
Word of God does this.  I feel however, what I was trying to convey to Alex
is that the Watchtower society is making the same error that the Thessolonians
made during the times of Paul.  The Thess. Church made the error of believing
they had the authority to determine that Christs 2nd return would happen right
then!  They sold all their goods and gave the store away because of this 
preconceived notion.  Paul exhorts them in this; stating that before He 
returns, there must be first a Great Apostacy or falling away.  Considering 
this was written during the years of Nero, I believe Paul was referring to 
the times of The Abomination of Desolation, something on a far greater scale
than the abominations of Nero's Roman Empire and, in my opinion, a time of 
destruction far greater than we have seen thus far.  "For there will be great 
tribulation..such as the world has not known or will ever see again." Matt 23.

      >>  Or do you associate the 
      >>  second coming with the end? (which no one knows when will 
      >>  happen, only the Father).

I for one do.  I believe his second return will be the 7th bowl judgement 
of Revelation.  I believe the seven bowls of wrath are done in sequence and
follow each other within a small timeframe.  I believe from the time of the
departure of the two witnesses in Revelation 11, here begins the greatest woes
of human history...the second half of  the 7 year tribulation period.  It is
at the end of this period that Jesus returns triumphantly and utterly destroys
his enemies.  Hence, the thousand year millineum begins.  Notice that written
on the side of His Blood dipped robe it says, "The Word of God"  

...and the Word was God.  

>>	Btw as you have pointed out in your reply, the signs Jesus
>>	told his disciples to look for have happened throughout
>>	history. Was not Jesus' point that these would be on a
>>	grander & global scale and all happening around the same 
>>	time frame. If not what are you looking for ?.

Oh, I am looking for these signs...falling asleep on watch once in awhile, but
still looking.  But what I don't do is determine...yes, this has happened...yes
that has happened...yes, this happened this year.  I am always looking ahead,
not looking behind.  My opinion is that 1914 holds no more significance than 
any other year.

>>	Note for those looking on, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that
>>	Jesus was installed as king in heaven in 1914, this is based
>>	on an interpretation of certain Scriptures. This was proclaimed 
>>	by the then called Bible Students, about 30 years before 1914.
	
Phil, I don't disrespect your faith, I am bringing up this example to make a 
point.

Charles Manson's interpretation on Revelation 8,9 on the trumpet judgement.

The first four angels - John, Paul, George and Ringo.
The fifth Angel - (fallen star) Charles Manson himself
The locusts - Music
With the face of a man and hair of women - the Beatles
With teeth like lion - Militant Black Power
Breastplates - Beatles Guitars
Stinger - Beatles ampliphiers

In a nutshell, Music brings messages of Helter Skelter, Black militants kill
on mass scale, Black militants don't have a brain so they need whitey to tell
them what to do.  Manson family takes over...end of story.  Yes, completely 
ludicrous, yet the sobering fact.  Seven US citizens brutally murdered.  
Phil, I find it completely amazing that you would base your doctrine on the 
eschatological interpretations of 30 bible students from pre 1914.  It is 
not up to us to determine the dates and times.  The Bible says that when He
returns...EVERY EYE will behold Him!

>>	As Revelation 12 shows, this meant a time of woe for the 
>>	earth in line with the signs that Jesus gave to show his
>>	presense (parousia). During Christ's invisible presense a
>>	separating work would be carried out by himself and the 
>>	angels, as indicated by the illustration of the sheep and the 
>>	goats (Psalms 110:2, Matthew 25:31-46). 

The is the ministry of The Holy Spirit, I assume you don't believe in the person
of the Holy Spirit.  


>>        In this illustration
>>	persons are judged on how they treat Christ's brothers, that
>>	is those who have the main responsiblity of proclaiming the 
>>	"good news" throughout the earth which in turn is another sign 
>>	of Jesus' presense (Matthew 24:14). 

I agree with you on this.  But I believe this is referring to the Tribulation
period.  Hence the Church will have already been gone.  This judgement is on 
how those on earth treated the Saints after the departure of the Church during
the Tribulation period!

-Jack

    re:  <<< Note 235.50 by FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>
                            -< My cut at Daniel's 70 weeks >-
    
    Mike,
    
    I read your note last night at home.
    Nice to know that there are more people on this earth, curious to know 
    the end of times.
    I appreciate your enthousiasm about this matter although we will not
    agree about Daniel's 70 weeks.
    Like I promissed, my last item will be "when did the last days begin"
    So there is one thing we both agree with, and that is that we did land in
    the last days of this old world. 
    
    Rgds,
    Alex                            
    

>	Note for those looking on, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that
>	Jesus was installed as king in heaven in 1914, this is based
>	on an interpretation of certain Scriptures. This was proclaimed 
>	by the then called Bible Students, about 30 years before 1914.
    
    There is a slight problem with this.  The Bible clearly shows that
    Jesus Christ ascended into heaven to be seated at the right-hand of the
    Father back in 33 A.D.  In spite of Christ's triumphant cry, "It is 
    finished," this denies that He completed His redemptive work upon the 
    cross!

    Mike

What does the Bible call the time of tribulation?
-------------------------------------------------
A Time of Trouble - Daniel 12:1
The Time of Jacob's Trouble - Jeremiah 30:4-7
The Great Day of the Lord - Zephaniah 1:14-18, I Thessalonians 5:2,
            Revelation 6:16-17
The Great Tribulation - Matthew 24:21,29; Revelation 2:22, Revelation 7:14
The Wrath of God - Zephaniah 1:15, Revelation 6:16-17, 14:10, 15:1, 16:1, 11:18

Note: the term wrath is never used in the Bible to refer to Hell or the Lake of
Fire.  The use of the word wrath refers to God's wrath against sin which is
specifically poured out during the Great Tribulation.

Who will experience the wrath of God?
-------------------------------------
The Ungodly and the Unrighteous - Romans 1:18
Children of Wrath - Ephesians 2:3
Sons of Disobedience - Ephesians 5:6, Colossians 3:6
Babylon the Great - Revelation 16:19
The Nations - Revelation 19:15
Israel - Jeremiah 30:4-7, Zechariah 13:8-9
The Tribulation Saints - Revelation 13:7-10

Note: the purpose of this Great Tribulation caused by the outpouring of God's
wrath is fourfold:

    1. To test those who dwell upon the earth - Revelation 3:10
    2. That God might pour out His wrath on the wicked - Revelation 15:7
    3. To destroy those who destroy the earth - Revelation 11:18
    4. To purge the nation of Israel - Daniel 11:35, Zechariah 13:8-9

Who will not go through this period of God's Wrath?
---------------------------------------------------
The Church is promised deliverance from the wrath of God -
    I Thessalonians 1:9-10, 5:4,5,8,9; Luke 21:36, Revelation 3:10

Remember there is a difference between the wrath of the world against the Church
and the wrath of God against the world.  Jesus clearly stated that the Church
would suffer the wrath of the world in John 16:33.  The Church will face
tribulation in the world from the Satanic world system.  Satan is the one behind
these attacks on the Church.  Paul tells us about this in Ephesians 6:12.  The
Great Tribulation manifesting the wrath of God, originates not from Satan, but
from God and is not directed towards the Church, but towards a rebellious world.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture (I Thessalonians 4:16-17)
-----------------------------------------------------
The Bible teaches that the Church will be "caught up" to be with the Lord before
the Great Tribulation, the outpouring of God's wrath, is allowed to come upon
the earth.  The term Rapture is taken from the Latin word "rapere" which is used
in the Latin translation of the Scripture (the Vulgate) for the phrase "caught
up" in I Thessalonians 4:17.  The Latin word "rapture" means to be in ecstasy,
so verse 17 was translated, "caught up into ecstasy (rapture)."  The term
"Rapture" has now come to describe the translation of the Church - which we know
will be a rapturous experience indeed!

Old Testament Pictures of the Rapture
-------------------------------------
Enoch - Genesis 5:21-24.  Enoch was a preacher of righteousness in a very wicked
        world that was heading for a deluge of the wrath of God (Jude 14-15).
        Enoch knew the wrath of God was coming and he proclaimed the coming of
        judgment.  Before the wrath was poured out, God took him.

Lot - The valley of cities of Sodom and Gomorrah had sinned so grossly that they
      were to be exterminated.  But before God could pour out His judgment of
      wrath upon these wicked cities, believing Lot and his family had to first
      be removed.  The angel sent by the Lord to destroy the city could do
      nothing until Lot was taken.  out of Sodom and safely to another place
      (Genesis 19:22).  This supports God removing his people before performing
      His judgment (Genesis 18:23,25).

New Testament Promises
----------------------
1. II Thessalonians 2:1-8

Other verses: Zephaniah 1:14-18, Acts 2:20, Joel 2:1-2,10-11, I Thessalonians
5:2, Isaiah 13:9-11, II Peter 3:10, Revelation 6:17, Zechariah 14.

Someone had upset the Church of Thessalonica by telling them that they were in
the period called the Day of the Lord or Great Tribulation.  Had they been
taught by Paul that they were going to go all the way through the tribulation -
or even mid-way through - they would not have been shaken from their composure
or disturbedness.  The Church was disturbed because they were being told they
were in the Great Tribulation and they had never expected this.  They were ready
to be persecuted by the world (John 16:33) but not to be the objects of God's
wrath!  See also I Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9.

Paul calms their fears by telling them that they are not in the tribulation
and the tribulation cannot come until there is first an apostasy and the one
who now restrains is taken out of the way.  The words "the apostasy" are "he
apostasia" in Greek and have been translated "falling away" in KJV.  The primary
meaning of the word "apostasia" is "defection", "revolt", or "rebellion" against
God.  But there is another meaning - it can be translated disappearance or
departure.  II Thessalonians 2:3 could also read:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except
 there come a disappearance (or departure) first, and that man of sin be
 revealed, the son of perdition;"

Some have seen a reference to the rapture of the Church and not just a reference
to and end-time apostasy.

The Restrainer
--------------
Before the day of the Lord can come, Paul tells the Thessalonians the son of
destruction, the antichrist, must first be revealed.  He cannot be revealed
until "what restrains him now" or "he who restrains" is "taken out of the way."
Who is the Restrainer?  It's the Holy Spirit working through the Church!  The
church is spoken of as salt and light (Matthew 5:13-14).  Salt restrains
contamination and decomposition.  Light restrains one from being enveloped by
darkness (Ephesians 5:8, II Corinthians 4:4).

2. I Thessalonians 1:9-10

The word wrath in the Bible can refer to God's general wrath against sin (Romans
1:18) and also of God's wrath which will be poured out in the Great Tribulation
(Revelation 6:17, 14:10,19, 15:1,7 16:1).

The word wrath is never used to refer to hell or to the lake of fire.  This
verse refers to our having been delivered "from the wrath to come."  This future
wrath from which we have been delivered is not the lake of fire or hell, because
Jesus has already saved us from these by His atoning death and glorious
resurrection.  The future wrath that the Church is saved from is spoken of in
this verse, the wrath of the Great Tribulation.  Jesus is coming specifically to
deliver His Church, His Bride, from the Great Tribulation.

3. Revelation 3:10

This faithful end-time Church is promised to be kept from the hour of trial or
the tribulation described in the following chapters of Revelation (chapters
6-19).  The sphere of this trial is worldwide, to test those who dwell on the
earth.

This verse does not say that the Church will be kept safe during the trial, the
tribulation.  It says that the Church will be kept from the very "hour" of
trial.  The Church will be kept *from* the actual time of the Great Tribulation.

The word translated in English "kept from" is "tereo ek" in Greek, meaning "kept
out" or "kept out of."  If Jesus had meant the Church would be protected
"within" the trial, He would have used "tereo ev" "kept in" (as in Acts 12:5,
25:4, I Peter 1:4, Jude 21), or "tereo eis" "kept into", or "tereo dia", "kept
through."  The words the Lord Jesus uses are specific and wonderfully chosen!
"Tereo ek" - "kept out of" means the church will not be in, into, or through the
tribulation at all!

The Clincher
------------
If this passage in Revelation 3:10 only means that the Church will be kept safe
throughout the tribulation as some have taught, then you have a major problem on
your hands!  The problem is this, all through the tribulation, "saints" are
being killed on a massive scale (see Revelation 6:9-11, 11:7, 12:30,17,
13:7,10,15, 14:13, 17:6, 18:24).  If these martyrs are church age saints then
they are *not* being kept safe and the promise to the Church in Revelation 3:10
is an error or it is meaningless.  Only as we distinguish between the Church-age
saints and the tribulation saints does the promise of Revelation 3:10 make any
sense.

The term saints can refer to people saved in the Old Testament, under the Old
Covenant (Psalms 34:9, 89:5,7) as well as those who are redeemed by the Lord
Jesus Christ in the New Covenant (I Corinthians 1:12).

The existence of the saints in the tribulation does not prove the Church is
going through the tribulation.  The term refers to those who are saved by God in
each specific dispensation.

The promise of Revelation 3:10 is that the church will be taken up out of the
sphere of the tribulation before the hour of testing comes upon the earth.
Those people converted during the tribulation (Revelation 7) are the saints
spoken of throughout the Book of Revelation.  They are martyred during the Great
Tribulation.

4. Revelation 3:10 tells us that the Church will be kept from the hour of trial
   that is to come upon the whole world.

The hour of trial is referred to again in the Book of Revelation in 14:7.  The
Church has been promised immunity from this hour of trial coming upon the whole
world.  The Great Tribulation is God's great judgment upon this world.  John
5:24 specifically tells us we will never come into judgment.  Romans 8:1 says
that there is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

re .57

Jack,

Sorry, but I didn't convey myself very well. What I mean't
to convey was that many Jews were in expectant for the
Messiah (an interpretation of the 70 week prophecy). Should we 
not expect God to prochecy when the second coming would occur?. 

;In a nutshell, Music brings messages of Helter Skelter, Black militants kill
;on mass scale, Black militants don't have a brain so they need whitey to tell
;them what to do.  Manson family takes over...end of story.  Yes, completely 
;ludicrous, yet the sobering fact.  Seven US citizens brutally murdered.  
;Phil, I find it completely amazing that you would base your doctrine on the 
;eschatological interpretations of 30 bible students from pre 1914.  It is 
;not up to us to determine the dates and times.  The Bible says that when He
;returns...EVERY EYE will behold Him!

Interpretation of scripture on prophecy is only proved after
the event. During the end of the Jewish system, Christians
had to interpret and respond to a prophecy given by Jesus,
for their very lives were at stake (Luke 21:20-21)  No doubt,
the Jews mocked those that fled to the mountains, for it
was quite a while before the Roman armies came back to
desolate Jerusalem.

We have signs, for Jesus' return will be invisible
to the naked eye. If every eye will literally see him why 
are we given signs to show that he has returned?. Just before
Jesus' death he said that a little while and this world will
behold him no more, that is in a physical sense (John 14:19).
The Scriptures tell us that he will return just as he left:
two angels said to the disciples who Jesus depart "'Men of
Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus
who was received up from YOU will come thus in the same
manner as you have beheld him going into the sky.'" Acts 1:11 NWT.
Lets analyse Jesus' departure to the heavens, there was no
pomp or ceremony, only a few disciples witnessed it also
his ascent was hidden from view (behind a cloud). God's Word
tells us that, he will return in similar fashion. That is
only a few will witness his return, and that it will be hidden
from view to the physical eye (on the clouds). On a cloudy
day, we can't see the sun but we can see the effects of the
sun so we know that it has risen as it were there. For this 
reason Jesus gave us signs, to show that he is ruling in 
heavenly power. 

>>        In this illustration
>>	persons are judged on how they treat Christ's brothers, that
>>	is those who have the main responsiblity of proclaiming the 
>>	"good news" throughout the earth which in turn is another sign 
>>	of Jesus' presense (Matthew 24:14). 

>I agree with you on this.  But I believe this is referring to the Tribulation
>period.  Hence the Church will have already been gone.  This judgement is on 
>how those on earth treated the Saints after the departure of the Church during
>the Tribulation period!

If the church has gone then who are the sheep?. Interesting verses are
in Matthew 25:37-39 NWT "Then the righteous ones will answer him with the
words 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty, and give
you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and recieve you
hospitably, or naked, and clothed you? When did we see you sick or in prison
and go to you?.'"  The sheep or righteous ones are confused as to when they
treated Jesus well, this is understandable for Jesus like the angels is
invisible. Christ's brothers must still be around at this time period for
persons to be judged as being on Jesus' righthand. For how can an earthly 
person, feed, give drink, cloth or show hospitality to someone who is in 
heaven?. 

Are you saying that the Church and Saints are different? that is the Saints
will be around, if so who are the Church and the Saints that you mention?.

On a personal note my conviction regarding 1914 is not based solely on the
interpretation of the Bible students. But mainly on the evidence we see
today, that is Jesus' signs a major one being the worldwide preaching of 
the good news which I am aware is happening now.

Phil.

    Be prepared guys,
    
    Dec 31, 1999 is THE DAY!
    
    Anyone working on those projects to rewrite the date calculations for
    the year 2000 can assign those projects to a really low priority.
    
    
                                    Patricia

    Yes, but wasn't the calender during the times of Daniel, etc. different
    from that of the Roman calender which we currently go by?
    
    -Jack

    Daniel wasn't written during the time of Daniel.
    
    Richard
    

    Let me rephrase...Isn't the Jewish Calender different from the Roman
    calender?  If so then we are using apples and oranges here!
    
    -Jack

    The Jewish calendar is in year 5755. 

re: .62 FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything"
 Title:  interesting stats on earthquakes

    1900-1950, the world averaged 3 major earthquakes per decade.  
    1950-1960 there were 13; 
    1960-1970 there were 30;
    1970-1980 there were 52; 
    1980-1990 there were 87; 

I think what you are primarily seeing are more sophisticated methods of
detecting earthquakes.

    What's also interesting is that the last 7 major earthquakes in the
    U.S. alone have occurred on the same week, and some even the same day,
    as a major pro-abortion or pro-gay demonstration.  The last one in

I find it interesting that the last 7 major earthquakes in the U.S. have
occurred during church services. Also, a tornado last summer flattened a church
in the south, collapsing a wall on the daughter of the pastor while she watched.
What's your point?

Steve

    > think what you are primarily seeing are more sophisticated methods of
>etecting earthquakes.

    how sophisticated do you have to be to measure something 6.0 or higher?

>I find it interesting that the last 7 major earthquakes in the U.S. have
>occurred during church services. Also, a tornado last summer flattened a church
>in the south, collapsing a wall on the daughter of the pastor while she watched.

Steve, not all of these happened on Sunday or Wednesday so you're
    insinuation isn't correct.

    >What's your point?

    If America or anyone else thinks they're going to behave as they have
    been without facing some sort of judgment from God, they are gravely
    mistaken.  If God didn't He would have to apologize to Sodom & Gomorah.

Psalms 33:12
Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen
for his own inheritance.

Psalms 9:17
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

    Mike

>Steve, not all of these happened on Sunday or Wednesday ...

Huh?  You think there are only church services on Sunday or Wednesday?
Here's just one church's schedule; there are others which have even more
services.  No matter what day it is; no matter what time it is, somewhere
in the world there is a Christian church service in progress.

	    Sunday
 7:30a	Morning Prayer
 8:00a	Low Mass
 9:00a	Sung Mass (church school follows)
11:00a	Solemn Mass
 6:00p	Choral Evensong and Benediction (only as announced)

	    Monday-Friday
 7:00a	Morning Prayer
 7:30a	Mass
12:00n  Mass (Tuesdays only)
 5:00p  Confessions (Wednesdays)
 5:30p	Evening Prayer
 6:00p	Mass (Wednesdays only; Wednesday Mass includes healing service)
 Solemn Masses on major Feast Days, usually at 6:30p

	    Saturday
 8:30a	Morning Prayer
 9:00a	Mass (Requiem on 1st Saturday of each month)
 9:30a	Confessions

>Huh?  You think there are only church services on Sunday or Wednesday?
    
    no I didn't mean to imply that, it was just an example of the more
    common days.
    
>services.  No matter what day it is; no matter what time it is, somewhere
>in the world there is a Christian church service in progress.
    
    We were talking about the U.S., but I understand what you're saying.
    
Matthew 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh
his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and
on the unjust.

    The point is that I don't see it as a coincidence.  These things will
    happen anyway, but the frequency and timing of earthquakes in recent
    years is a sure sign what happens when people turn their back on God.
    
    Mike

re: .69 FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything"

    how sophisticated do you have to be to measure something 6.0 or higher?
Unless you are relatively (on a world wide scale) near to the epicenter, you
need to be quite sophisticated.

	Steve, not all of these happened on Sunday or Wednesday so you're
    	insinuation isn't correct.
My point is that you can take any activity that is ongoing, put a time frame
around it and connect it to natural events. I find your linking of earthquakes
and gay demonstrations and/or abortion rallies an extreme reach.

    If America or anyone else thinks they're going to behave as they have
    been without facing some sort of judgment from God, they are gravely
    mistaken.  If God didn't He would have to apologize to Sodom & Gomorah.
If God were interested in punishing people why wait so long? Why punish
innocents (I doubt all those killed in the earthquakes were gay, pro-choice,
etc.) Why punish mild abberations such as homosexuality and let mass murderers
go free? Where were the earthquakes during the reign of Hitler in Nazi Germany,
it seems that there transgressions as a country were worse than ours, and
against God's chosen people no less. Give me a break.

	Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath
		chosen for his own inheritance.
So Israel never has natural disasters? 

Sorry Mike, but you are seeing what you expect to see with no facts to back up
your assertions.

(from .71)
    The point is that I don't see it as a coincidence.  These things will
    happen anyway, but the frequency and timing of earthquakes in recent
    years is a sure sign what happens when people turn their back on God.
Earthquakes are a sure sign of what will happen when stresses build up along the
earth's tectonic plates.

Steve

>If God were interested in punishing people why wait so long? Why punish
    
    God is a patient and forgiving God and allows us the freedom to turn
    from our ways.  God doesn't will that anyone perish.
    
II Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray,
and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from
heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

>innocents (I doubt all those killed in the earthquakes were gay, pro-choice,
>etc.) Why punish mild abberations such as homosexuality and let mass murderers
>go free? Where were the earthquakes during the reign of Hitler in Nazi Germany,
>it seems that there transgressions as a country were worse than ours, and
>against God's chosen people no less. Give me a break.
    
    Actually the characteristics in Germany that led to Nazism (1880-1940) is 
    very similar to what is going on in America today.  Especially with the
    parallels between the treatment of Jews then and how Christians are
    perceived today.

>So Israel never has natural disasters? 
    
    No, and they don't always follow God either.  They've paid a heavy
    price for the eras where they rejected God.

    Mike

	Re .72. Steve

	> Earthquakes are a sure sign of what will happen when stresses
	> build up along the earth's tectonic plates.

	>Steve

	Steve, I'll bet you could come up with some equally fantastic
	explanation as to why the Schumacher-Levy Comet crashed into
	Venus recently. Nothing to do with the sinful nature of the
	Vesuvians, I guess.   ;-)

	Greetings, Derek.

re Note 235.74 by VNABRW::BUTTON:

> 	Steve, I'll bet you could come up with some equally fantastic
> 	explanation as to why the Schumacher-Levy Comet crashed into
> 	Venus recently. Nothing to do with the sinful nature of the
> 	Vesuvians, I guess.   ;-)
  
        I guess I have to be fair to the conservatives whose errors I
        point out and say that it was Jupiter, not Venus.

        Bob

re: .73 FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything"

    God is a patient and forgiving God and allows us the freedom to turn
    from our ways.  God doesn't will that anyone perish.

OK. You implied that God was causing these earthquakes. If He is patient and
forgiving, then I can assume that only evil people perished?

    Actually the characteristics in Germany that led to Nazism (1880-1940) is 
    very similar to what is going on in America today.  Especially with the
    parallels between the treatment of Jews then and how Christians are
    perceived today.

OK, so where were the earthquakes? BTW, how do you perceive the perception of
Christians today?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re: .74 VNABRW::BUTTON "Another day older and deeper in debt"
 Title:  Seeing stars?

	Steve, I'll bet you could come up with some equally fantastic
	explanation as to why the Schumacher-Levy Comet crashed into
	Venus recently. Nothing to do with the sinful nature of the
	Vesuvians, I guess.   ;-)

Actually, my theory is that Jupiter crashed into the comet, not the other way
around, to punish the sinful cometonians!

Steve

    My most favorite prophecy expert has joined the WWW.  Pastor Chuck
    Missler's Koinonia House ministry can be reached at:
    
    http://www.khouse.org/khouse/index.html
    
    You can also email them at:
    
    khousewww@khouse.org
    
    Mike

>    http://www.khouse.org/khouse/index.html

Note - the version of netscape I have didn't cope with the www.khouse.org
name - the canonical name is krel.iea.com - that one worked.  So, if
the URL in .-1 doesn't work for you, try:

http://krel.iea.com/khouse/index.html

-Steve

	Re: .75 Bob.

        > I guess I have to be fair to the conservatives whose errors I
        > point out and say that it was Jupiter, not Venus.

	I thought when I was writing it that something was wrong, but could
	not nail it. Thanks.   But I wouldn't know what the people of Jupiter
	would be called: Jupuvians?  Jupitonians?  Jurists?

	Your fairness does you credit.

	Re: .76 Steve.

	> Actually, my theory is that Jupiter crashed into the comet, not
	> the other way around, to punish the sinful cometonians!

	What sins can you commit on a frozen comet?  Too much ice in the
	scotch, maybe!  :-)

	But a good theory; pity Einstein is not around to math it out.

	Greetings, Derek.

re: .79 VNABRW::BUTTON "Another day older and deeper in debt"
 Title:  I stand (sitting) corrected.

>>But I wouldn't know what the people of Jupiter would be called: Jupuvians? 
>>Jupitonians?  Jurists?

According to SF literature, they are Jovians. (Although I like Jurists better,
maybe they could try OJ :^)

>>What sins can you commit on a frozen comet?  Too much ice in the scotch,
>>maybe!  :-)

It would probably have something to do with how they keep warm. :^)

If there is life on other planets, are they too tainted with original sin due to
the actions of Adam and Eve?

Steve

>But I wouldn't know what the people of Jupiter would be called: Jupuvians? 
>Jupitonians?  Jurists?

BTW, you should know that the people of Venus would be called Venusians,
not Vesuvians, unless they had been blown to Venus when Mt. Vesuvius blew.

/john

    
    	I wonder what the Venusians, Juptians, Saturnists, Plutoriacs and
    	Mars-barians call us?
    
    	Odd-Balls, maybe 'cause we're blue and they aint.   :-)
    
    	Greetings, Derek.

    .82
    
    Jovians

    My original point in saying in 91.4508:
    
>   .4507
    
>   And when it ends, someone will jump up and shout victoriously, "See!
>   We told you so!"
    
>   ;-)    
    
    was that we *all* agree that the world will someday end.  Said
    long enough, the apocalyptic doomsayers will *eventually* be right.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    
    "Why do J.W's say that God's Kingdom was establised in.....1914?"
    
    Refering to: 235.42 & 235.47 & 235.51 and also to 91.4507
    Please, read very carefully.
    
    Although many will disagree (e.g: 235.53 and others within this note),
    there is a twofold proof for this;
    
    A>> Bible chronology
    
    B>> Events happening since 1914 as a fulfillment of prophecies.
    
    
B>>  Starting with the events; here are first of all some quotes 
     with references:
    
    Even after a second world war, some people point to 1914 
    as the big turn in modern history.It is indeed 1914, and not the year
    of Hiroshima that marks the big turn in our modern world.
    =Rene Albrecht-Carrie, The Scientific Monthly July 1951=
    
    Since 1914 everyone who is in consious what is happening in the world,
    they are deep disquiet about a controlled destiniy, predestined march
    to a still bigger catastrophy seems to be.Many serious people have got
    the feeling that nothing can be done to prevent, that mankind ruined
    themself.They watch how humans, like in a theatre the hero of a Greek
    tragedy, driven by evil gods and having no longer control over her
    destiny.
    =Bertrand Russel (Philosopher), The New York Times Magazine 27-Sep-1953
    
    Modern times....began in 1914, and no one knows when and how it will
    finish.It could be finished in a mass destruction.
    =The Seatle Times  1-Jan-1959=
    
    In the big war (first world war = WWI) the whole world really exploded,
    and up till now, we still do not know why Utopia was on the rim.There
    was peace and prosperity.Then...suddenly the whole world exploded.The
    whole world is still in a coma after that explosion.
    =Dr Walker Percy , American Medical News 21-Nov-1977=
    
    In 1914 the world lost a connection and could not find it since.This is
    a time of extraordinary chaos and violence, both between countries and
    inside national borders.
    =The Economist London, 4-Aug-1979=
    
    In 1914 the civilization we infected by a terrible and deadly disease.
    =Frank Peters, St. Louis Post Dispatch 27-Jan-1980=
    
    Everything was going to be healed.This was the world were I was
    born.Suddenly....,unexpected....there came an end on everything, on a
    morning in 1914.
    =The British Statesman Harold McMillan New York Times 23-Nov-1980=
    
        -----------------------------------------------------
    
            Prophecies going in fulfillment right now       (NWT)
            ==========================================
    
    Matthew 24:3    While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the
    disciples approached him privately, saying: "Tell us, When willthese
    things be, and what will be the sign of your presence  
    (Greek: presence=parousia) and of the conclusion of the system of
    things?"
    Matthew 24:7    The first world war introduced mass use of machine
    guns, Tanks, submarines, aircrafts, and also first time use of
    poison gas.This war took the live of 14 million soldiers and many
    civilians were killed and murdered.A war historian noticed: "The WWI
    was a total war."
    
    The second world war (WW II) brought more destruction. About 55 million
    soldiers and civilians were killed.The German newspaper =Der Spiegel=
    noticed: Since 1945 there was no day really peace in this world.
    
    Matthew 24:7   WWI were followed by starvation.After WWII starvation was
    even bigger than WWI.At this moment +/- 400 million people lives
    constantly on the edge of starvation.
    =London Times 3-Jun-1980=
    
    More then 800 million people are under feed
    ==The Globe and Mail Toronto  8-Nov-1983=
    
    Each year 12 million children die before their first birthsday.
    =The Guardian London   30-Sep-1983=
    
    Matthew 24:7 & Luke 21:11    George W. Housner mentioned the earthquake
    1976 in China.One hundred and thousands of victims were involved.
    =Time 25-Jun-1979=
    
    Statistics shows that our generation lives in a very dangerous epoc of
    high seismic activity.Figures shows that there were more people killed
    and more earthquakes since 1914 up to now than in the past ages.
    (Encyclopedias)
    
    Matthew 24:12     Increasing of lawlessness. Murder, raping, terrorism,
    corruption in every level of society, incest.........etc.
    Everywhere, and especially in big cities (metropolitans) people are
    afraid to walk in the street at night hours.
    
    Luke 21:26     While men (people) become faint out of fear and
    expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth.=Die Welt Of
    Hamburg= called our time "The age of fear" 18-Jan-1979
    A new phenomena is the new threatening, causing mankind an unlimited
    sort of fear.First time in history mankind are confrontating world wide
    pollution, nuclear holocaust to ruin all live on this planet earth.
    And there is no point of return.
    
    2Timothy 3:1-5  Remember this for once and for all; When the end of
    times are reached, That in the last days critical times hard to deal
    with will be here.....
    
    Decades before 1914 there was an organisation of people announcing, and
    proclaiming the advent of 1914.The outcome of the terrible war in
    Europe had his fullfilment.The past 25 years, the International Bible
    Examiners [nowaday Jehovah Witnesses] by means of preaching and by
    press, proclaimed the day of wrath, where Scripture predict that it
    will happen. Look out for 1914 were the call of the evangelists.
    =The New York World Magazine  30-Aug-1914=
    
    A protestant leader in Germany before and after WWII pointed to JW's as
    serious bible examiners who died in concentration camps by thousands,
    because they refused to go into wars, just like the first century
    Christians.As a contrast he wrote; Churches of all Christian
    denominations took part,through all centuries on wars, and even bless
    the guns to kill other Christians, to kill human creatures.They have
    pray for the destruction of their enemies.(Jesus teached pray for your
    enemies)
    =Of Guilt and Hope Martin Niemeuller  edition of 1947 Page 48=
    
    
A>>  Bible chronology.
    
    When God's government begins to rule:
    =====================================
    
    Beginning to rule in the midst of enemies.  (Psalm 110:1,2,5-6)
    When Christ returned to heaven after his resurection, he did not start
    ruling then as King of God's government.The Apostle Paul explains this
    in Hebrew 10:12-13.
    Does it sound strange that anyone would be an enemy of God's
    Government? Yet not anyone wants to live under a government that
    requires its subject to do what is right.So after telling how Jehovah
    God and his Son would take over world rulership, the Bible says, the
    nations became wrathful (Rev 11:15-18).
    The nations do no not welcome God's Kingdom because Satan misleads them 
    into opposing it.      
    
    
    To be Continued........     
    

  >>>   -< Gods Kingdom Established in 1914 >-
    
    And yet every eye hasn't beheld Him....
    
    -Jack