Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Ron:
    
    As an example, there was a young lady who used the G_D expression.
    After about the third or fourth time, I said, "Mary if every time a
    person hit their thumb with a hammer, then shouted..."Awww Mary
    Smith!!!", how woul you feel about that.  She looked at me and after
    thinking about it said, "Hmmmmm, good point".  She then made an effort 
    to stop using the Lords name in vain.  As far as the others, well, this
    will be good practice to perhaps send out a polite memo to the gang,
    or catch each person individually.  Course it will take longer.
    
    Rgds.,
    
    -Jack

Before I became a Christian I used to love irritating Christians by swearing
around them, asking them out for a drink, telling dirty jokes, etc.  In fact
one night my (then) wife and I had to pick up a Christian friend of hers at
the airport and I made sure I had had  few beers and my gutter language was
flowing quite freely. I was gonna show her.  She never said a word about it.
The entire weekend she was with us she would talk about the Lord, her church,
etc..and I would swear and burp and tell jokes..though the last day she was
with us, when I happened to observe her in prayer and reading her Bible left
mark on me..took me a few years, but her testimony and non judgemental actions
(and prayer, I'm sure) are among the many things that pointed me to the 
Savior.


Tough to do, I know, but perhaps if you just ignored it, and prayed that they
would see the Love of the Lord in you?  Getting angry will probably cause them
to continue to do this to provoke your anger.

Most of the folks around me knon of my love for the Lord everyonce in a while
they'll slip and swear or something and look at me and say "sorry"..I'll usually
just smile and say "no problem..I'm only in sales..He's (while pointing towards
the sky) in management"



Jim

Ron,

It sounds like you are very upset by this, and it's probably affecting
your work.  I'd say you have three options:

1. Get used to it.  This might not be possible, considering the strong
   feelings you showed in .0.

2. Get your co-workers to clean up their act.  To have even a chance of
   doing this I think you have to be willing to be confrontational.  Tell
   people that you are disturbed by their choice of language and ask them
   to avoid using profanity.  If they continue to use words that upset you,
   file a formal complaint.

3. Find a new job (in a different group at Digital).

				-- Bob

    How about reading 1 Corinthian 5.
    
    What is your responsibility as a minister and how can you most
    effectively deal with it.
    
    I know that is not easy, but it is the jist of the problem.  You see 
    behavorior around you that is morally offensive and you do not know how
    to effect change. Doing anything is better than nothing.  Who do you
    need to be to change the situation?
    
    Patricia
    
    P.S.  re 1 Corinthians, I would not agree with turning the sinners over
    to Satan for the destruction of their Flesh. btw 1 Cor 5-6 was the
    subject of my class last night.  In a small group we got to choose be
    between discussing Fornication or Lawsuits.  I would like to know how 
    many groups choose lawsuits.

>    How about reading 1 Corinthian 5.

Careful... this deals with Christians in the church (see 1 Cor 1:2).
It doesn't apply to a group of people outside the church.

I'm not sure how to deal with the problem itself, though.  Maybe to
say that it bothers you.  Maybe the people will watch out, maybe not.
Maybe it would help to think about why it gets you worked up?

I'll keep it in mind and write back if I come up with anything else.

-Steve

    Strange how we have to use PC expressions today, but have to listen
    to swearing.
    
    Marc H.

re Note 739.6 by JUPITR::HILDEBRANT:

>     Strange how we have to use PC expressions today, but have to listen
>     to swearing.
  
        Marc, as far as I'm concerned, if you want to swear, go
        ahead!

        Bob

    OK; how about a little pschoanalysis of ME.  Why do you think this
    bothers me?
    
    Maybe it has to do with a feeling of such utter disrespect for God
    that my insides say my neighbors have for God; I understand that this
    is a "perception" I have and that it probably doesn't have anything to
    do with reality - after all - aren't I now living in the middle of the
    bible belt?  Most likely these people go to a neighborhood church - or
    then again maybe they don't.
    
    And then, there is always "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in
    vain" and how that still echoes in my ears back from early childhood
    days.
    
    Maybe this has something to do with a feeling of such disre[ect of my
    peers for me and for others who are constantly w/i earshot and that I
    feel "hurt" or "not important" to them if they act so offenseively.
    
    I was in a concall on Tuesday in my mgr's office with about 15 other
    people.  One person started to speak on the subject at hand across the
    whole Central States Region and started in with "J----- C----- blah
    blah blah for C---- sake blah blah blah".  I was standing behind my mgr
    and I let out a large intentional groooooan.  Mr mgr truned around to
    look at me and didn't have a clue.  Well, I've been doing a few more
    groans around thje office and I'm getting some weird looking looks. 
    Gee, maybe I'm being REALLY offensive to others and maybe I'm not
    giving them the respect I'm wishing to get from them.
    
    Patricia, I havn't read the 1 Cor verses you mentioned (don't have a
    bible at work) yet I am trying to find a mutual solution to this
    problem I'm experiencing.  That's why I've come to this notefile to air
    my problem.  It's kind of like if you're a mgr, you don't want to
    everreact and when angry fire somebody or say something to somebody
    that really is not what you would say if you were not so hot under the
    collar.
    
    Bob comments that if somebody wants to swear, that's ok wioth him.  My
    feeling is that I, at first, would like to distance myself from the
    individuals, to not ask or demand that they change their life-long ways
    for me or that I insist that they need to clean up their lives ...
    
    Also, as another noter mentioned - I'm not the pastor to these people.
    
    My feeling is that this afternoon I just might wander up to my
    Personnel Consultant's office to discuss this in a friendly manner to
    get opinions from people who may be trained on such situations or who
    may have resources to share with me.  I also think I need to let my mgr
    know that I intend to speak directly to some of the offenders about
    what I need for a work environment so that I can do my job w/o wincing
    twenty million times a day.
    
    Of course, the other side of this is that I will only be here for a
    short time (measured in weeks) and that I need to decide whether
    anything I do is for me or for the betterment of others today and
    tomorrow.
    
    Whew; such ramblings.
    
    Thanks for your patience in this flow of words.
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

 It certainly is tough to deal with.  Perhaps sitting them down and 
 explaining to them why it bothers you (and at the same time perhaps
 sharing God's plan of salvation to them) would help.  Jack in .1 makes
 a pretty good suggestion, IMO.  And that would offer a perfect lead in
 to sharing the gospel!


 I'm trying to figure out how to get my ex wife to stop swearing around my
 kids, particularly my youngest.  He knows its wrong, and in fact talked
 to me about his "accidentally" swearing at somebody in school.  I explained
 to him that, as in any sin, the thing to do would be to go to God for 
 forgiveness.  Doesn't help a great deal when his mother (and one of his
 brother's) swear up a storm all the time..sigh..but that's not the topic at
 hand.  


 The bottom line, to me is that, while it irritates us, we need to continue
 to show God's love to them.  They are sinners, just as we are, the difference
 being we are saved by the Grace of God..talk to them, explain why it bothers 
 you, and if you get no satisfaction take it to the higher ups in your organiz-
 ation.




 Jim

    .5
    
    John Wesley said, "The world is my parish."  But what did he know, anyway?
    
    Richard

A view from the other side?

If you are only going to be there a few weeks I would probably ignore it as best 
I could. If not, or if you are going to be there longer you might try simply
letting them know you are offended by the profanity and ask them to try to tone
it down around you. Unless they are deliberatly trying to get your goat most
of them probably will, your request is not unreasonable. If they don't I 
wouldn't push it, they will either try to respect your request or they won't.

Be specific about what bothers you. I don't use profanity (much :^), but I also
don't personally view using the Lords name in vain as profanity (although I 
don't use those phrases much either). Let them know specifically what phrases
bother you.

I would suggest that, if the words are really what you are trying to stop, do
not use the opportunity to preach. First, it is innappropriate in the workplace
(this should get me some flames :^) and second, I can almost guarentee that 
at least some of them will become irritated and begin using it more frequently.
This is from observational experience, I have seen it more than once.

Finally, try to loosen up a bit. I understand that it bothers you, but they are
only words. From your description it doesn't sound like they are being 
deliberately disrespectful, to them it is simply part of their learned and 
normal speech patterns. Try not to take it personally, it doesn't sound as if
they mean it that way.

My bet is that they simply don't realize that they are offending you, and when
they do most (not all) WILL make an effort to tone it down (look for the
guilty glance when the revert, as opposed to the challenging glare). 

Steve

    I see profanity in much the same way I see racial slurs. They have
    no place in a business environment. I'd rather not hear them anywhere
    of course but I do have a practical side. Believe it or not. :-)

    Using God's name in vain is no different than using racial or sexual
    slurs. Using profanity is no different, in terms of creating an
    uncomfortable work environment, than regularly telling sexual or
    racial "jokes." To me it's that simple. I have made comments from time
    to time about people making racial and/or sexual comments. I would do
    the same if profanity started reaching the same level of
    uncomfortableness.

    			Alfred

    Thanks, Steve.  I discussed the issue with a group of eight people from
    Digital at lunch. (They were all from another group in another building
    and we were having a going-away lucheon for a woman who sits two cubes
    diagonally away from me.  I actually directed the question to her and
    asked the group for their thoughts.  Since today is her last day, I
    felt very comfortable asking her.
    
    The consensus was to tune it out (that's what she does).  One other
    person mentioned that if one particular person was around that it is
    almost imposible to tune it out because of the volume used by the
    person.  'tis true.
    
    I am also of the opinion that the workplace is not the place - for me -
    to evangelize to the masses.  (Although there is another person in my
    group with whom I've had lunch and one day (the first day aactually) he
    noticed I was involved in silent prayer before the meal and he asked if
    we might have a word of prayer!  Since that first day we have shared in
    prayer each time we've gone to lunch.  This person and I have shared a
    lot.)
    
    Well, thanks for all your comments.
    
    	Peace!
    
    	Ron
    

    I can't say I never, ever use foul language myself, though I generally
    attribute its chronic use to lack of vocabulary.  I picked up a kind
    of funny habit from my spouse of saying, "God *bless* it!" under
    circumstances where you'd normally expect the opposite.  Sharon is
    actually more likely to say, "God bless America!" when she's really
    upset.
    
    Don't know if using these kinds of counter-verbalizations would suit
    your situation or not, Ron.  It would be sort of shocking to hear
    someone say emphatically, "God bless it!  If you *must* talk like that,
    will you *please* lower your voices?  I'm trying to concentrate over
    here!!"
    
    Shalom,
    Richard

	Ron,

	I had a similar dilemma about 4-5 years back, difference being that 
	I also used profanity myself. At that time I began studying the Bible 
	with Jehovah's Witnesses and began to realise that from God's viewpoint
	that profanity was wrong , as Ephesians 4:29 The New English version
	reads "No bad language must pass your lips, but only what is good
	and helpful to the occasion." So I began to change my personality,
	but this made me all the more aware of the profanity going on around
	me at work.

	The approach I took was to tell my work colleagues how I thought myself 
	about swearing and the changes I was making and why (not as a group but
	one on one). At the same time not condemning them for their choice of 
	words but would they respect my views when in their company. To begin with 
	the reaction was as mentioned in 1 Peter 4:4 NWT "Because you do not 
	continue running in them in this course to the same low sink of debauchery, 
	they are puzzled and go on speaking abusively of you." However, after a
	while they began to respect me and the swearing in the group began to decline 
	and now it only happens once in a while. There likely were other factors why 
	this has happened but my experience maybe of help to you.

	Phil.

    Ron,
    
    I have thought about my response earlier in this note and to a great
    extend I do empathize with you dillema and have applied it to myself
    and my response was as much a response to myself.  The similar
    situation I have been in is with rascial, ethnic, and homophobic jokes.
    I now always(I think and hope) deal one on one and say without
    judgement that I do not listen or in anyway participate in those kinds
    of jokes.  I have even said that to children perpetuating in ethnic jokes
    on themselves.  I reread Corinthians 5 & 6 myself and it is only vague
    the connections I make.  For me the spiritual community includes all of
    humankind so in a sense everyone is a member of what calls the
    community of Christ.  Paul asks the question what responsibility do we
    have for our brothers and sisters and what responsibility do we have
    for the community as a whole.  And how do we take responsibility
    without judging and by making sure all of our actions only build up. 
    The person I would have to be to confront the situation you describe
    coincides with the kind of minister I want to become.  That was where
    my question "what kind of person would youl need to be to confront the
    problem"  I also know from your noting that you are that kind of
    person.  It is a struggle though being firm and confident and even
    finding our strength in our vulnerability in confronting difficult
    situations in a loving, positive, uplifting way.  And we have to do
    this
    without expecting the authorities to fix it.  My suggestion to you 
    then is to be the loving, caring, confident Minister you are and with
    God's guidance figure out what you need to do for the sake of the 
    community to which you are a part.
    Best of luck and let us know how it works out.
    
    in love,
    
    Patricia

    Well, on Friday pm I went to see my Personnel Consultant and we
    discussed the problem.  We agreed it would be best for me to revisit my
    mgr and request her to send a notice to tthe people w/i her group on
    the need for professional manners in the workplace WRT language.
    
    If things improve them that will be fine; otherwise, my mgr can restate
    the need for the improvement.  I will also attempt to approach the
    offenders in a non-confrontational way such as has been suggested here.
    
    Today, I took a "sick day" so that I could reflect on this at home (and
    to do my work from the comfort of a non-offensive atmosphere).
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

    Ron, I sympathize. And I have a suggestion: pray for them. I'm
    not joking. And I don't think I'm extremely naive.
    
    I had an amazing conversation with a Congregational minister
    recently. We talked about what evil is and about God and the Holocaust.
    She said that she thinks evil is the absence of good. It struck me
    immediately that she is right. She described it as a black hole,
    a vacuum. Jesus said "resist not evil." Meaning, don't fight it,
    I think. But that doesn't mean don't do anything about it. The
    Chinese book of wisdom also says that you should not fight against
    evil, and that if your spirit is purified you will affect others
    without trying to. It says that evil will destroy itself eventually, 
    because all it knows how to do is destroy. Therefore, we don't need to
    fear evil.
    
    And if evil is a vacuum, a black hole without goodness (I'm not
    saying that people who swear are evil) how sad. And all we can
    do is try to fill it with goodness. That's not easy, but prayer
    is easy, and I bet it would work. I'll put my money where my
    mouth is and try it myself next time something or someone is
    bothering and let you know if it works.
    
    Eileen
    
    Eileen

	Ron, has it worked as of yet?



Glen

    Well, I took last Monday off as a sick day partly because I couldn't
    let all the noise be noiseless in my ears as has been recommended to me
    as "my" way to live within the situation.  I also took last Friday and
    today off as vacation days for other purposes.  So, I don't have many
    days of being close to all the noise.  Also, some of the "voices" have
    been out of the office all of last week, so it has been generally
    quiet.
    
    Tomorrow morning I go back to work; so, we'll see how the language
    issue manifests itself.  Although my mgr put out a memo at my request
    regardin gthe need to be more professional in our way of not offending
    our peers, I'm not so sure she was all that pleased with me for asking
    her to write and distribute such mail to her workers.
    
    My time is running out within the group so I may not be around long
    enough to know how the languasge situation is resolved.
    
    Thanks for asking!
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	RR