Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Feel free to share all my replies with Marc.
    
    In Ephesians, Paul writes that we wrestle not against flesh and blood
    but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the
    darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
    
    I find it eye opening that rulers is in the plural.  I believe the
    bible supports the teaching that demons do exist.  The example of the
    demons going into the swine is a poignant example!
    
    -Jack 

    Demons are as real as angels.... And angels are as real as demons. It's
    a whole Yin-Yan thing.
    
    	Eric

    
    
    Re 1020.0   -< Demons >-
    
    
    1>>    ...Are they real?
    
    2>>    ...Are they devil-induced or just the evil side of mankind?"
    
    3>>  (Please include if I have your permission to share your reply with
    Marc.)
    
         ======================================================
    
    
    3>>  It's O.k. Richard.
         If you think it is worthy to share my reply, just do it.
    
    
    1>> They are real.
        It will take to much to explain it in depth, but I will give
        some Scripture Chapters to do further examination.
        In the hebrew Scriptures it starts with Genesis Chapter 6.
        
    Brief explanation:
    =================
    Angels came to earth from heaven deceived by Satan the Devil.
    They had to hold their places in heaven ,where they belonged.
    Satan is the Greek word for deceiver.
    Devil (Latin => Diablo) means liar.
    In those days the Angel tranformed themself into human beings
    and took as much women (beautiful in those days) as they liked.
    Their descendants were the famous Giants of those days.
    And they were very violent. They were called Nephilims
    (in Hebrew).
    The earth was full of violence because of them. (Tranformed Angels 
    and the Nephilims).  
     
    
    2>> They are Devil-Induced.
    ===========================
    
    In that way that they disobeyed their Master (Jehovah-God)
    and took the side of their new Master Satan the Devil.
    From that very moment they were tranformed from 1/3 of the Holy
    Angels ( see previous notes about this 1/3) into Demons.
    
    Matthew Chapter 4, you will read how Jesus were proofed by Satan
    (a real Person but invisible). A couple of chapters ahead, you
    will read how Jesus cast a lot of Demons out of a man's body.
    They asked Jesus not to destroy them but give them permission to
    enter in the body of a lot of pigs who were there at the moment.
    
    So this is just some information that Demons are real like Satan is.
    And not like a lot of people think that:  It is evil coming from themself.
    
    Rgds,
    Alex

    Alex:
    
    Did the Nephalim die off during the flood?
    
    -Jack

    THe first century human authors of the Bible as did the participants in 
    all 1st century mythological religions certainly believed that Demons
    were real physical, spiritual entities.
    
    The real debate is whether the mythological world view of the first
    century is part of the essential truth of CHristianity.
    
    Is CHristianity a religion for first century humanity or is it a
    religion deeper than the mythological form in which it is told.
    
                                   Patricia                     
    

    >    Did the Nephalim die off during the flood?
    
    They make a post-flood appearance in either Numbers or Exodus.  
    
    All it takes is a little first-hand experience with demons to realize
    they're not someone's little myth.

    While dealing with them can be frightening, it is comforting to know we
    have victory over them through the blood of Jesus.
    
    Films like "The Exorcist" and "Amityville II" were done with
    consultants on staff who were experts in demonology.
    
    Another interesting tidbit:  In 2 Chronicles you'll read about a
    character named Manasseh.  He is often termed the Hitler of the Bible.
    Archaeologists discovered some remains from his civilization not too long 
    ago.  The tablets found there turned out to describe such filth, 
    perversion, and wickedness that linguists absolutely refuse to translate 
    them!  
    
    Goes to show the spiritual problem of man has been around for
    milleniums.
    
    Mike

I've changed my mind a number of times about demons, their existance and
the nature of their existance.  I wouldn't doubt that I'll change my mind
again.

I've personally never seen a demon, unless you count Gingrich and Helms.
(But I would prefer to believe these two are simply "Dumb and Dumber") ;-}

Shalom,
Richard

	Richard, I liked that analogy! :-)

    Right Glen...let's keep the old liberal skeleton's in there that seem
    to live by this notion that your too stupid to make decisions for
    yourself!!
    
    -Jack

    Sorry to have sidetracked the topic with a bit of levity.
    
    Back to demons:  Is it believed that all demons are angels that
    were cast to the earth with Satan as recorded in Revelation 12
    (whenever that was supposed to have occurred)?  Did the ancients
    believe this to be the case, also?
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    the ancient Hebrews did.

    .12  Too bad the event wasn't recorded in the Hebrew Bible.
    
    Richard
    

| <<< Note 1020.10 by AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!" >>>

| Right Glen...let's keep the old liberal skeleton's in there that seem to live 
| by this notion that your too stupid to make decisions for yourself!!

	Jack, which note of mine are you referring to? You lost me on this one
bud. Was it the one where there was a big smiley face?????


Glen

    Ohh....
    
    
    Yeah....
    
    
    That was the one!

>    .12  Too bad the event wasn't recorded in the Hebrew Bible.
    
    Richard, you must not be a very good gambler.

>    Richard, you must not be a very good gambler.

Don't need to be.  Don't gamble.

If you're talking about these (from Note 1016.3):

>    See also Isaiah 14:1-23 and Ezekiel 28:1-19.

There may be some similar imagery, but as far as their being accounts
of Satan and his followers being cast out of heaven by the Archangel
Michael, they don't cut it.

Have you something else to offer?

Richard

    Richard, wanna bet? ;-)

    About what?  8-)
    
    Richard
    

    re:    <<< Note 1020.4 by AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!" >>>
    
     >   Alex:
    
     >  Did the Nephalim die off during the flood?
    
    
    
    Hello Jack,
    
    Nice to hear from you since our last dialog.
    
    First:  I want to apologize for the delay between your question
            and my answer.
            although we are living on the same hemisphere, we differ in
            latitude, and most important......we differ in longitude.
    
    Second: My answer on your queston.
    
    Jack,
    The Nephalims (or Nephilims) died off during the flood.
    While their fathers (Angels) took off their material body and 
    went to heaven in spiritual body as they were before,the Nephilims 
    could not. Although they had great strenght they were only humans.
    
    Right now that I'am writing to you, something came up to my mind.
    After the flood there were times, in Hebrew Scriptures, that Giants
    Popped up.
    The one well known was Golliat,killed by David.
    Others are mentioned in Scriptures, another one was a twin.
    A next one was not only ~10 feet (+/- 3 meter), but had 6 fingers on
    each hand, and toes.
    
    How it could happen, it is not written in Scriptures but they were
    descended from the same tribe as Golliat as far as I can remember.
    
    I can't backup it at the moment with Scripture, but I can find out
    if you wish ?
    
    Errata:
    B.T.W: From .3   1>> Diabolos is not the Latin word for Satan but Greek.
                     2>> Latin word = Daemonium  (for Satan)
    
    Rgds,
    Alex

    
    Addendum to Note 1020.20:
    
    Errata 2:
    =========
    
    Satan stated in .3 is wrong    1>> Satan doesn't mean Deceiver 
                                       but Satan means Slanderer.
                                   2>> Devil means Liar.
    
    Greek: Devil 
    Latin: Daemonium
                       
    Rgds,
    Alex
                            

re .11

 Richard,

 One thing to keep in mind regarding Revelation 12 is that prior
 to this event that Satan and his angels had access to the earthly
 and heavenly realm. Afterwards, Satan and his angels would be
 confined to the vicinity of the earth. Job 1:6,7 RSV reads "Now
 there was a day when the Sons of God came to present themselves
 before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. The LORD said
 to Satan, 'Whence have you come?' Satan answered the LORD, 
 'from going to and fro on the earth and from walking up and down
  on it.'" This scripture shows that Satan had access to both
 realms.


 One should note that Satan and his demons are invisible to the 
 human eye, but similar to the wind the effects of their influence
 are experienced by mankind. More so when the demons are confined 
 to the vicinity of the earth, Revelation 12 tells us it is a time 
 of woe for the earth and those that dwell in it. 

 Phil.

              <<< TAVENG::$1$DUA21:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BAGELS.NOTE;1 >>>
                -< BAGELS and other things of Jewish interest >-
================================================================================
Note 1440.0                       Demons, Satan                          1 reply
CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Unquenchable fire"                 8 lines  20-DEC-1994 01:50
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Is it a Jewish belief that all demons are angels that were cast out
    of heaven to the earth with Satan (as recorded in Revelation 12,
    whenever that was supposed to have occurred)?  Did the ancient
    Hebrews believe this to be the case?
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    
================================================================================
Note 1440.1                       Demons, Satan                           1 of 1
NAC::14701::ofsevit "card-carrying member"            4 lines  20-DEC-1994 15:49
                             -< none of the above >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Those are all Christian concepts and entirely irrelevant to Jewish 
theology.

		David
    

    Since everyone is offering definitions of Satan...
    
    My Hebrew dictionary says the direct translation of Satan into English
    is "Accuser."
    
    Mike

re Note 1020.24 by FRETZ::HEISER:

>     My Hebrew dictionary says the direct translation of Satan into English
>     is "Accuser."
  
        I know this a long time, and always think of it whenever I
        see or hear one person accusing another of something, even
        when that's their job (as in a prosecutor).

        The Church Lady wasn't far off.

        Bob

    I entered a reply in BAGELS to see what their interpretation is on a
    few verses.
    
    Re: The Accuser
    
Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength,
and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our
brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

    Satan constantly accuses God's children to find fault in the price paid
    by the Lamb.  
    
Hebrews 8:1
NOW of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high
priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the
heavens;

    Look to the Sanhedrin as an example of what is going on here and of the 
    seating arrangements.  The Sanhedrin was a very powerful civil and
    religious court.  They were the major player in the arrest and crucifixion 
    of Jesus Christ.  In the Sanhedrin court, the person logging all the 
    condemnations sat on the left of the judge.  The person who logged all the 
    acquittals sat on the right hand of the judge.  Satan, the Accuser,
    stands before the judge making his case.  Jesus Christ is on the right 
    hand of God because He has logged all the acquittals for us.  When God 
    looks at the Christian, He sees Christ's righteousness!
    
    Mike

    Satan also may be translated to mean "adversary."  In Job, the adversary
    (or the accuser) is a title, rather than a proper name.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

On the Nephilim side issue, see Note 731 "Genesis 6.1-4"

(Especially 731.4)

Shalom,
Richard

       re:     <<< Note 1020.28 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Unquenchable fire" >>>
                                 -< Internal pointer >-
    
    On the Nephilim side issue, see Note 731 "Genesis 6.1-4"
    
    (Especially 731.4)
    
    
    Remember, and do not forget after reading all these stuffs,
    Satan, and his slaves (demons) are ruler of this world right now.
    Scriptures says that Satan is going around this world like roaring Lion,
    searching for one of the righteous to destroy him.
    
    Written in Ephesian Chapter 6.
    
    rgds,
    Alex
    
    

    Alex:
    
    I was actually trying to better understand when I asked the question
    about the Nephalim.  The Nephalim appear as the Canaanite army in
    Numbers when Moses sends the spies to Canaan to check out the promised
    land.  The point I was making was...
    
    If Nephalim are stricly descendents of these angels that took on human
    form, then the Canaanites who were descendents of Noah would prove this
    isn't the case.  
    
    I submit to you that the term...Sons of God...in Genesis 6 do not refer
    to angelic beings.  You will also notice that God refers to them
    as...for they are flesh, and their days will be numbered..."
    
    -Jack

Note 1020.29

>    Remember, and do not forget after reading all these stuffs,
>    Satan, and his slaves (demons) are ruler of this world right now.

Also see topic 995, "When did Satan take over?"

Shalom,
Richard

  RE:  <<< Note 1020.30 by AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!" >>
    
    
    
    >I submit to you that the term...Sons of God...in Genesis 6 do not
    >refer to angelic beings.  You will also notice that God refers to them
    >as...for they are flesh, and their days will be numbered..."
    
    Jack:
    
    Refering to Note 1020.20, The giants who popped up after the
    flood weren't those before the flood.
    Those before the flood were violent in all their ways and,
    were dwelling around the whole earth to do only evil things.
    
    Those after the flood were living in Canaan, and were different.
    And only the 10 spies were afraid of them.
    The other two, Caleb and Joshuah, weren't. They even didn't mention
    any thing about the Giants.
    They only Said, we have to thrust on the True God Jehovah (N.W.T)
    who promised us the Land.
    
    Sons of God:
    ============
    
    Jack, if they weren't Angels, why do Scripture says Sons of God ?
    Why not Sons of Man, like the rest of Scriptures says?
    
    Rgds,
    Alex
    
    
     
    

Jack,

1 Peter 3:19,20 and Jude 6 is helpful in determining who are
the Sons of God mentioned in Genesis 6. 

1 Peter 3:19,20 NWT "In this state also he went his way and
preached to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient
when the patience of God was waiting in Noah's days, while the
ark was being constructed." This pin points the time of the
angels disobedience. Jude 6 NWT "The angels that did not keep
their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling
place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness
for the judgment of the great day." This highlights the act
of their disobedience, and as Genesis 6 shows they cohabited
with the daughters of men which was unnatural for angelic
creatures.

Also compare 2 Peter 2:4.

The angels in Job 1:6 are called the "sons of God". This confirms
what Alex has been saying that the Sons of God are indeed angels.

Phil.

BTW your quote "for they are flesh, and their days are numbered"
are you referring to Genesis 6:3?, in the RSV it reads
"Then the LORD said, 'My spirit shall not not abide in man for
ever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty
years.'" This obviously is a comment about man himself who was
being ruined (see verse 5), especially by these "Sons of God" and 
the effect they were having on mankind in general. There was one
who continued to walk with the True God, even with all this 
violence going on around him, that was Noah. 

	I was pleasantly surprised by a phone call the evening of
January 3rd from Marc Hildebrant (see .0).  He wishes to explore the
topic of demons a bit further.  I will be entering the specifics later.

Shalom,
Richard

	Selected excerpts from a letter from Marc Hildebrant [bracketed
remarks mine. rjc]:

	Thanks for your comments on the subject of "Demons."  The whole idea
of how demons have possibly been affecting me needs much thinking to clarify.
Let me take a stab at it though.

	I, too, tend to be a "brooding soul." [A reference to something I'd
said to Marc. rjc]  Maybe it's the engineer in me that tends to analyze my
situation in life or how I compare or how many problems I have.  I don't
know.  I do find though, that at certain times, I fall into a deep, low period
where everything -- everything -- seems bad [dark, gloomy, negative. rjc].

	Nothing seems to be able to penetrate an almost wall of depression
around me.  [In another letter, Marc shared that going to worship does help.
rjc.]  I would just see the problems and trouble with my life and others.
It's a feeling that tends to last 1-3 days.  I'm not talking about "brooding
or being "deep in thought."  Rather, it's as if a feeling of depression or
a strong "force" has taken over to completely change my approach to life
itself.

	This, I believe now, is actually a demon force from Satan.

	One of my favorite songs is one called "Hallelujah," from around
the Roaring Twenties.  A line in it goes something like this:

Satan lies awaiting
and creating skies of gray;
Sing Hallelujah, Hallelujah,
and you'll shoe yah blues away!

	The idea here is that the "Demons" are a force or spirit from Satan
that creates this bad feeling.

	Now, don't get me wrong here.  I'm no table-pounding type with a
Bible!  But I do know that since I came up with this idea and actively worked
to keep this "Demon" at bay, I've felt great.

	No, I'm not cheerful and optimistic all the time, but I don't have
such an overpowering feeling of depression seizing me.

	How often did this occur, you ask?  Well, almost every 2 weeks for
awhile.  The periods have varied over the 45 years of my life.  But I do
feel that I have conquered them.  How?  Prayer and the realization of the
fact that it's really almost a "dark side"/force that is at the core.

	I do feel that I'm onto something.

[When I spoke with Marc by phone he indicated that he would find most
helpful the sharing of personal thoughts and experiences, rather than
biblical references or doctrinal proclamations. rjc]

Note 1020.35

Dear Marc,

	Our solicitation in CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE concerning demons has
failed to spark any further response to date.

	Your understanding of demons is certainly benign in contrast to
William Peter Blatty's (author of "The Exorcist").  That book had me glancing
back over my shoulder for at least a week after reading it.

	Speaking of songs, yours reminded me of a song from around the
early '50s that had as its chorus:

	"So let the sun shine in,
		face it with a grin;
	 Smilers never lose,
		and frowners never win"

As I recall, one or more of the verses also made reference to causing
the devil to flee.

	I'm personally hesitant to diagnose your situation.  I wouldn't
rule out talking to a professional counselor or a trusted clergyperson.

Shalom,
Richard

       >>     "So let the sun shine in,
       >>             face it with a grin;
       >>      Smilers never lose,
       >>             and frowners never win"
    
    No...this song was on the Flintstones...Pebbles and Bamm Bamm sang it
    at a sold out arena with 30,000 cheering fans!  
    
    -Jack

    .37
    
    Flintstones?  You've lost me.
    
    Richard
    

    Richard:
    
    Didn't you watch the Flintstones when you were younger?  Apparently
    not, otherwise you would know what I was referring to.  Its just silly
    stuff!

    .39
    
    I watched the Flintstones when it first aired on primetime television,
    the pre-Pebbles and Bamm-Bamm period.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    Ahhhh, well then you missed the infamous Pebbles and Bamm Bamm gig at
    the Hollyrock bowl.  
    
    -Jack