Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

It's painful to bear the name Christian when others assume that I must
be boring or that I must lead a boring life.

It's painful to bear the name Christian when others assume that I think
the same way as Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell.

It's painful to bear the name Christian when others assume that I stand
ready to identify their sins and equally ready to chastise them for their
sinfulness.

It's painful to bear the name Christian when others assume that I will
submit immediately and unquestioningly to governmental authority.

It's painful to bear the name Christian when others assume that nationalism
is integral to my faith.

It's painful to bear the name Christian when I hear references to killing
carried out by Christian militia.

It's painful to bear the name Christian when Christians still kill one
another in Northern Ireland.

Richard

    It is never ever painful for me to bear the name Christian. It is,
    however, painful for me that some others who claim the name bring
    shame to it.
    
    			Alfred

    Richard, Richard, Richard!   This is rather uncharacteristic of you.
    
    Be careful, please.  You know the old saying, "Don't stoop to their 
    level..."  Your anxiety is understandable, but you do not want to 
    manifest in yourself those same traits, which you say get on
    your nerves, do you?   Specifically, as a Christian, you do not
    want to become *exclusionary* and you do not want to wall off other
    brothers/sisters just because they look at things (at you) differently,
    do you?   If other segments of Christendom cast a shadow on you,
    then instead of mustering bitterness/darkness in your heart -- like 
    you have to bear some burden -- let your light shine now more than
    ever.  Love your neighbors, especially your enemies, and by EXAMPLE
    show the world what unconditional Christian love and compassion and
    charity are really all about.  Stop worrying about what the negative
    images the word "Christian" creates in your life, and open your arms 
    to those who cross you the wrong way or look at you the wrong way
    or interpret your spirituality the wrong way.
    
    Paul
     

    Re: .3
    
    Gosh, Paul.  I said it's painful.  I didn't say I was sorry!  8-}
    
    Peace,
    Richard

Indeed, Christians are full of warts.

My deepest anxiety in this area is people who attempt to
change the message of Jesus' work on the cross as the only
way to be reconciled to God into a message that talks about
social justice and advancement to the exclusion of the
sacrifice that God gave us.

A secondary anxiety has to do with those who re-interpret
God in a way that makes sense to them but which has nothing
to do with what God has actually told us and revealed to us
about Himself.

Collis

    Collis,
    
    	This'll come as no surprise to you, but I think your perception is
    this area is askew.  Doubtlessly, you think the same of my perceptions.
    
    	I believe that anyone who leaves social justice and peace out of
    the gospel is guilty of giving only a fraction of the whole gospel message.
    I realize this is not exactly what you're lamenting, but it comes darn
    close.
    
    	Futhermore, I claim that you, too, are just as guilty as anyone
    of reading the Bible through filters of your own choosing; the very
    thing you claim disturbs you about others.
    
    Richard

    
    
    		Here is where I believe is the most important aspect of the
    Bible and that is the Temporal blessing of this unique book.  Try, for
    example, to read a single passage every day for a month and notice how
    that passage evolves in your mind.  I have no doubt that its the Holy
    Spirit using that passage to minister to you and your individual needs.
    While the Bible is a great historical book, this Temporal blessings
    make it "God breathed".  This is why I believe there are so many
    disagreements about what it is really saying...its meeting each need as
    it should and needs to.  I believe that many times we mix up the
    literal with the Temporal.  Relax.  God is real and dynamic.
    
    
    Dave

    It's painful to bear the name Christian when so many associate the name
    Christian with an unloving, exclusive, mean, wrathful definition of
    Christianity.
    
    Sometimes I wonder whether it is truly worth defending the name against
    those definitions that degrade Christianity!
    
                                                       
    

    The same can be said of those who are inaccurate in discussing the
    nature, work, and person of Jesus Christ of the Bible.  It's degrading
    to Christianity.

    .8
    
    I know what you mean.  So many times I've thought to myself, "Why be
    linked with these who profess Christ but whose lives do not bear it
    out?"
    
    I have considered dropping the association and going "underground."
    I don't know why I haven't.
    
    Richard
    

    ZZ    I have considered dropping the association and going "underground."
    ZZ    I don't know why I haven't.
    
    Richard, let me suggest a possible reason if I may.  You recall the
    great incident that happened between Elijah and the Prophets of Baal.
    The contest was set, The prophets of baal lost, Elijah's sacrifice was
    consummed and The prophets of baal were put to death.
    
    So what happens to this great prophet of old?  Well, a certain woman
    named Jezebel puts a bounty on the man's head, and Elijah who saw the
    great works of God is now cowering in a cave, at the point of wanting
    to seek death himself.  The angel asked, "Elijah, what are you doing
    here?"  Elijah like a little child cries, "Lord, I am the only one
    left!"  "Nonsense, for there were umteen thousand prophets of God in
    the land." 
    
    Morale: We are tactical individuals and have the need to see results. 
    God is strategic and sees the whole picture.  
    
    Sounds simple enough, but I believe even in an apostate church age,
    we ARE CALLED by God just as Elijah was called out of the cave.  As the
    great Winston Churchill stated when all was bleak for Great Britian....
    
    
    Never
    
    	Never
    
    	    Never
    
    		Never
    
    
    			GIVE UP!!!!
    
    
    -Jack

ZZ    It's painful to bear the name Christian when so many associate the name
ZZ    Christian with an unloving, exclusive, mean, wrathful definition of
ZZ    Christianity.
    
    I am compelled to reply to this because I believe I am lumped into this 
    group of unloving beings.  Please excuse my paranoia if I'm wrong but
    somehow I don't believe I am.
    
    I believe love is among one of the most misunderstood and misused words
    within Christian circles.  Some define love as the need to set
    boundaries while others do not.  Some define love as to mean the
    attribute of hate cannot coexist.  As you know I reject this notion. 
    It is fallacious and wrong.  Some define love as valuing all behaviors
    and regarding moral relativism as valid, others do not.
    
    Having gotten to know you over the last few years, it seems you fall
    more into the category opposite to what I believe.  I believe love does
    not preclude hate, I believe God has limits and boundaries within his
    unconditional love, and I believe I believe God makes it clear that he 
    doesn't regard all behaviors as sanctified actions.  
    
    Now, does this mean I lack love?  How about mean...am I mean?  Is the
    God I portray one of wrath...or are you mistaking wrath for holiness
    and sovereignty?  What about those martyrs whose crosses lit up the
    Colosseum at night so that the emporer could watch the chariot
    races...did Nero consider these men, women and children exclusive in
    their beliefs also?
    
    I believe the word love needs to be looked into, and dealt with in the
    scope of reality.
    
    -Jack

    Richard,
    
    It's the inside/outside question.  Is what Christianity has become so
    foreign to the words and deeds of the man upon whom it was founded that
    it is beyond reform, and we must devote our energy to building a Post
    Christian spirituality, or is what has degenerated capable of being
    reformed by those with a vision of a loving, inclusive, peaceful world
    and religion to match that vision.
    
    sometimes it feels like I go round in circles, but can't excape that
    question.

ZZ    It's the inside/outside question.  Is what Christianity has become
ZZ    so foreign to the words and deeds of the man upon whom it was founded
ZZ    that it is beyond reform, and we must devote our energy to building a
ZZ    Post Christian spirituality, 
    
    Richard, Christianity cannot be reformed such as government can. 
    Christianity under the energy of humans will crumble and fail.  The
    best way to see revival as we all need to be reminded begins on the
    knees.  
    
    -Jack

>    it is beyond reform, and we must devote our energy to building a Post
>    Christian spirituality, or is what has degenerated capable of being
    
    It's already here.  It's called the "New Age."
    
    glad to help,
    Mike

    "new age"
    
    I thought that was what Jesus attempted to establish!

    No, Jesus established God's new covenant with us.  The New Age was
    established in the garden by Satan.
    
    Mike

    This is correct.  Even if the garden incident is a myth, Satan did in
    fact state, "For the day you eat of the fruit you will become as God,
    knowing good and evil"  
    
    Jesus would never establish such a covenant.  Jesus made a clear
    distinction between himself and the Father.  How much more is there a
    distinction between us and the Father.
    
    -Jack

.18 JMARTIN

    This is correct.  Even if the garden incident is a myth, Satan did in
    fact state, "For the day you eat of the fruit you will become as God,
    knowing good and evil"  

If Eve did not know the difference between good and evil, then how can she 
be held responsible for acting evilly? Presumably she wouldn't even know 
that disobeying God was 'bad', right?

Steve

    If my understanding is correct, it is actually Adam that is held
    accountable for the whole incident.  Now this may be a stretch but is
    something to consider.  Figuring the importance of such a command, it
    would appear that Adam was also responsible to tell Eve of the
    consequences of eating the fruit.  Go figure.  A godly commandment
    never conveyed to Eve by Adam.  He had a responsibility here and
    neglected it.
    
    -Jack

    Steve,
    
    you hit the delemma on the head.  The myth is not really about human
    disobedience and sinfulness.  The myth is about the separation of
    humans and gods.  The myth is about how humans are the creatures of the
    world, closest to the image of God, but yet not God.
    
    This is what we get if we read the story as it is instead of read it
    through the eyes of Paul or through the eyes of the author of
    "Revelations"
    
    Is it time to give up wrestling with those with an untenable image of
    God, and define a image of spirituality of your own?
    
                              Patricia

re Did Eve know it was wrong to eat from the tree

One has just to look at the account for an answer:

Genesis 3:2-3 NWT "At this the woman said to the serpent:
'Of the the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat.
But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in
the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You must not eat
from it, no, you must not touch it that YOU do not die.'"

I agree with Jack's reply that this commandment not to eat
of the tree, must have been conveyed through Adam.

Phil.

    
    > If my understanding is correct, it is actually Adam that is held
    > accountable for the whole incident.
    
    I don't come to that conclusion from reading Gen. 3. To me it seems
    that God doles out the punishments in the order of accountability: the
    serpent, the woman, the man. I mean really; God gave Eve the pain and
    agony of child birth and made her subservient to Adam. Adam's
    punishment was to boss his wife around and be a farmer.
    
    Eric

    
    Re.17
    
    Mike,
    
    Re: New Age
    
    You don't even understand the first thing about it.
    
    But, we began this fruitless dialogue back in 1987, so I'm not expecting 
    much of a change in this area anytime soon.
    
    Besides, Hal Lindsay and Constance Cumbey have to make a living
    somehow...(;^)
    
    Cindy

    Cindy, it's the same tired old lie that can be traced back to the
    garden of Eden.  I'm a bottomline kinda guy ;-)

.21 FLANAGAN

    Is it time to give up wrestling with those with an untenable image of
    God, and define a image of spirituality of your own?

Patricia,

What makes you think that I don't? :^)

Steve

    Steve,
    
    Perhaps it is this particular medium. 
    
    Perhaps it is because this is not the safest place to reveal the depths of
    our own spirituality. 
    
    But in your noting I see you arguing why a particular definition of God
    does not work rather than offering the definition of spirituality that
    does work for you.
    
    Maybe its because I project onto you the struggle that I had before I
    realized that it did not matter what the "orthordox" believe.
    
    Most likely it is a little of all of the above.
    
                                      Patricia

    
    Perhaps Steve is rightfully more interested in objective reality, you
    know, "if there is a God He's not a figment of my imagination, He's
    awesome and powerful, etc., and He's not changed by what I think about
    Him" rather than "God is real, but unknowable or whatever I decide He
    is".
    
    jeff