Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    
    	...and it was said of him that Ebanezer kept Christmas all
    	   the days of the year and could keep it better then any man...
    						(my modest paraphrase)
    
    Since I assume this is where you are deriving your question...
    
    	Keeping Christmas is keeping the needs of others always before
    us.  Being aware of the hurts of others and reaching out to meet those
    needs and heal those hurts.  Being ready with a kind work and a cheerful
    greeting.

I try to "keep" Christmas by giving it away...

Peace,

jim

    Hai, my name is Hans Alles@uto. I just accidently went through the
    notes, and "discovered" this question. I like to answer it:
    
    It is very tragic that must of the people see Christmas as a day off,
    or as getting Christmas gifts, or having a good dinner. And although I
    like to have a day off, a nice gift (especially from those who are very
    close to me) or a good dinner, it has nothing to do with Christmas.
    
    Christmas is the birthday of Jesus Christ in this fallen world.
    Christmas is the first step to the liberation of this world. Christmas
    is the coming of Jesus Christ, The Sun of God, to this world, not only
    to show his love to us, to heal us, not only to liberate us from the
    devil, but also to be an example for us, what we can do in His mighty
    powerfull Name. (Read Marc 16). It is therefore that I find it tragic 
    that (at
    least in Holland) so many "Christians" do only go to church once a year.
    They forget or do not understand the real meaning of being a Christian.
    
    For me is Christmas a day were you can celebrate the birth of Jesus
    Christ. But honestly being a born again Christian, active in and
    outside my Church, for me it is every day Christmas. I thank Jesus
    every day that he came to earth, I thank Him every day that He is my
    Saviour, I thank Him, every day that I can be a witness of Him, both in
    Digital and outside. I thank Him that God uses all the Christians to be
    part of His army and to defeat the devil.
    
    May God bless you all with the faith, and hope that His Kingdom will
    come here on earth, and with the certainty that you are part of His
    plan.
    
    

    Re: Keeping Christmas in your heart.
    
    Well, for me Christmas, December 25th, is a pagan holiday, because the
    reality is Jesus was not born on (or nowhere near) December 25th. 
    Evidenced by the fact that the bible states "and shepards were minding
    the sheeps in the fields," which is impossible for Israel's shepards to
    do in December, because this is winter.  They usually put their sheep
    in shelters around October.  This was true 2000 years ago.
    
    Christmas, or December 25th, has been a day of celebration for ages, as
    it is the day when the Sun begins to come back into the northern
    hemisphere.  It was celebrated as the birth of the Sun God, by ancient
    civilizations and adopted as the day of the birth of Christ by
    Christians.
    
    In actuality, I would suggest that keep Christmas and celebrate the
    birth of Christ *everyday*, since we really don't know when Jesus was
    born, and the Christmas spirit is something we need year round anyway.
    
    Personally, I believe Jesus was born a Taurus (or possibly Aries, as 
    most genius' are born under these two signs, in the Spring.
    
    How did "Santa Claus" become associated with Christmas?  Why do we
    teach that he will bring us gifts, and not Jesus?  I believe there is a
    scripture that says something about Jesus "giving gifts" to men...  Why
    do we seek "material" gifts at the birth of Christ, and not "spiritual"
    gifts?  There is a predominating paganistic aspect to Christmas that
    needs to be evaluated by all "true" followers of Christ.  I believe
    that Jeremiah or Isaiah, chapter 10, has something to say, also, about
    "Christmas Trees, with ornaments", indicating it as a pagan ritual.
    
    Don't get me wrong Christmas is a nice time of the year, I wish we
    could have that sort of spirit going everyday...that's my point though,
    why not keep it everyday!
    
    Playtoe

    I find myself agreeing in some ways with .4. We keep Christmas best
    by not knowing what day it really happened and treating each day as
    if Christ had come in it. Every day someone (lots of someones) discover
    Him and helping to make that happen is a good way to keep Christmas.

    		Alfred

    BTW: I've only been to Bethlehem twice during the winter. Once in
    January a couple of days after Jerusalem (some 5 miles away) had been
    hit with 12 inches of snow. The next December when I was there for
    Christmas it was a whole lot warmer and while I didn't see any sheep
    out it seemed warm enough for it and there was some greenery on the
    hills. There seems to be some variation in the weather year to year
    in that part of the world. While I don't see any particular reason to
    believe that Jesus was born in December the arguements that He couldn't
    have been don't seem all that convincing to me.

	It starts about this time every year.  People's wonderful generosity
comes pouring out.

	I am more than slightly acquainted with the local soup kitchen and
the people who keep it maintained.  There have been years when the donated
items to the soup kitchen were so plentiful that one had difficulty
maneuvering about the facility.  Charitable gifts most often include food
(frequently frozen or perishable), items of warm clothing (mittens, mufflers,
coats, etc.) and toys.

	The soup kitchen is genuinely grateful to receive all these gifts.
But it's always been looked upon with a bit of astonishment to have the
flood suddenly return to a trickle each year on December 26th.

	There must be a way of keeping Christmas alive in one's heart
throughout the year and acting upon it.  Christ didn't advocate a seasonal
faith.

Shalom,
Richard

    
                   * For Internal Use Only *

    Stories from CLARInet may not be redistributed to non-Digital
    employees.

Subject: Christmas traditions, from mistletoe to Rudolph
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 4:47:46 PST

 UPI NewsFeature

			By SUSAN WYATT

	SEATTLE (UPI) -- Christmas trees, mistletoe and gift-giving are
    well-known holiday traditions, but their origins are generally unknown
    to most Americans who go along because ``that's the way it's always been
done.''
	But it hasn't ``always been done'' that way and to investigate the
origins of the holiday's traditions is to discover a fascinating part of
American and European history.
	Though most Americans celebrate the holiday to varying degrees, few
are aware that it wasn't until the middle of the 19th century that
Christmas was accepted into American culture. During the 17th and 18th
centuries, large groups of colonists vehemently objected to the
celebration, calling it ``an abomination.''
	The Puritans believed church government should not sanction anything
that couldn't be found in the scriptures. In 1659 in Boston, anyone
found observing the holiday was fined.
	But, still, the celebration was catching on.
	One influence may have been separation of church and state,
established by the U.S. Constitution in 1791. Members of the Puritan and
evangelical churches were less likely to oppose the celebration when it
was no longer a symbol of the religious and political dominance of the
Church of England.
       	During the 19th century, secular interest in Christmas spread rapidly
with an influx of German immigrants who celebrated Christmas as both a
religious and folk occasion.
	The English colonists in America weren't accustomed to giving gifts,
not even to the children. They did, however, give to servants and the
poor, as part of their duty to God.
	Christmas presents were advertised sporadically in newspapers in the
1820s, but for the next half century, gifts were referred to as New
Year's gifts or simply ``holiday'' gifts. The custom of gift-giving
didn't catch on until the mid 19th century, when stores were a flurry of
activity.
	While firecrackers and noise-making are largely associated with
Independence Day and to a lesser extent New Year's Eve, the old-
fashioned Christmas was a cacophony of guns, cannons and firecrackers.
	The practice of making noise dates back to the notion that loud
sounds would frighten evil spirits thought to be rampant at the winter
solstice -- celebrated as the point when days started getting longer, the
coming of spring and the renewal of life.
	In about 320 A.D., Rome decided to convert the pagan solstice
celebration and the Mithraic (Persian) ``Birthday of the Unconquered
Sun'' into something more suited to their purposes. Christians believed
Jesus was born on the 25th day, but couldn't settle on the month.
December was chosen and the observance became ``Birthday of the
Unconquered Son.''
	Christmas traditions have deep roots in European folk customs. The
yule log, virtually forgotten in today's celebrations, came from
England. The log was brought home on Christmas Eve, placed in the
fireplace, lit from a piece of the previous year's log and, to prevent
bad luck, kept burning for 12 hours.
	The popularity of the Christmas tree grew out of the yule log. As
legend has it, the first Christmas tree was cut by Martin Luther, who
brought it home and decorated it with candles to imitate the stars in
the sky above Bethlehem.
	The first national recognition of the Christmas tree custom in the
United States came in 1856, when President Franklin Pierce decorated one
at the White House.
	Originally, the ``tree of life'' was a tabletop model. It was
decorated with apples, the symbol of man's fall, and sacramental wafers,
the symbol of man's salvation. Eventually, the apples were replaced by
glass balls, the wafers by cookies cut in the shape of stars, angels, or
animals.
	The poinsettia is perhaps the most popular of the several plants
widely used in today's Christmas decorating. The plant with bright red 
``bracts'' was brought from Mexico by botanist and U.S. Ambassador to
Mexico Joel R. Poinsett. The ``flower of the Holy Night'' is believed to
represent the flaming Star of Bethlehem.
	Holly, ivy and mistletoe are symbols of fertility. Though ivy is
largely overlooked today, in old English carols ivy represents the
female and holly represents the male. Both were thought to have healing
powers.
	The legend of Santa Claus rose out of the story of St. Nicholas.
	Nicholas was born about 270 A.D. in what is now Turkey. Tales of his
charitable life and miracle-working were passed on by word of mouth. He
was considered the patron of children and this is thought to be the
reason he became tied to Christmas.
	The written description of the Santa Claus we know today was created
by Clement Moore, the New York scholar who penned ``The Night Before
Christmas.'' The visual image was developed by illustrator Thomas Nast,
a political cartoonist who created the Democrats' donkey and the
Republicans' elephant.
	Nast first drew Santa Claus for a book of poems that included ``The
Night Before Christmas.'' After the success of the book, he drew Santa
each Christmas for ``Harper's Weekly.'' Children and adults alike
eagerly awaited the drawings, which appeared in the magazine for 23
years.
	The appearance of Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer is quite new, having
appeared on the scene in 1939. Rudolph was created for an advertising
campaign of Montgomery Ward. The story was used as a ``giveaway'' item
for the Christmas shopping season and it wasn't used again until 1946.
In 1949 the popular song was recorded by Gene Autry and Bing Crosby and
it swept the country.

Z    Personally, I believe Jesus was born a Taurus (or possibly Aries,
Z    as most genius' are born under these two signs, in the Spring.
    
    Just as a side note, you realize the founder of Astrology was Nimrod
    the Great Hunter.  Nimrod was Noah's great grandson and was the founder
    of baal worship not to mention the great city of Babylon.  He is
    considered by scholars as one of the most evil men of the Old
    Testament.
    
    Also, Jesus celebrated the Feast of Lights with the apostles; what we
    know today as Chaunukah (sp?).  This holiday was not ordained through
    the scriptures and yet it was celebrated by Jesus himself.  What this
    tells me is that a holiday can be commemorated, even though the timing
    isn't exactly right.  Christmas did start as a pagan holiday but the
    important thing is that Christ is being glorified.
    
    -Jack

    
    I thought the wise men were Astrologers of a sort.
    
    	Eric
    

    They were, and the irony of it was that astrology even lead them
    astray.  They ended up in Jerusalem and not Bethleham!
    
    -Jack

    
    re .10

    If their navigation by the stars led them astray (haven't heard this
    before) then it was astronomy (or orientering) not astrology which led
    them astray. It was astrology that gave them the sign of the birth of a
    great king. So, if astrology led them astray, then maybe... nah.

    Eric.

    PS. The civilian version of GPS (Global Positioning Satellite) can only
    get you within several (100?) meters of your target. The fact that at
    least three individual, two thousand years ago, were able to travel
    enormous distances and navigate their way to within ~10 miles of their
    intended target is hardly being led astray, in my opinion. The Pilgrims
    of American history should have been so lucky.

.8 

    Just as a side note, you realize the founder of Astrology was Nimrod
    the Great Hunter.  Nimrod was Noah's great grandson and was the founder
    of baal worship not to mention the great city of Babylon.  He is
    considered by scholars as one of the most evil men of the Old
    Testament.

You mean only 3 generations after God drowned everything and everyone in the 
entire world(!) to destroy evil one of the most evil men in history was born?

This makes the great flood seem like a pretty drastic non-solution to the 
problem of evil. Why did God bother?

Steve

    Well, for one thing it proves that sin is NOT a learned skill.  Sin is
    something mankind is predisposed to.  Even in Noah's righteousness, sin
    still abounds and is passed on from generation to generation.
    
    And even though God's judgement was fierce and although God promised
    never to destroy the earth again by flood, history proves that death
    still results throughout mankind, because sin is still present.
    
    -Jack

re .12

>    Just as a side note, you realize the founder of Astrology was Nimrod
>    the Great Hunter.  Nimrod was Noah's great grandson and was the founder
>    of baal worship not to mention the great city of Babylon.  He is
>    considered by scholars as one of the most evil men of the Old
>    Testament.
>
> You mean only 3 generations after God drowned everything and everyone in the 
> entire world(!) to destroy evil one of the most evil men in history was born?


how big was the population on earth when noah's grandson founded the 
great city of babylon?? i mean after the complete destruction of earth 
only 3 generations ago where there enough people to fill even just a 
single city?!


andreas.

    Good point.  I imagine the population of the earth was quite small. 
    Nevertheless the very concepts Nimrod propogated in his society are
    being practiced today and have been a part of Israels sordid past.
    
    -Jack

    Err....forgive me if it's something obvious that I've missed, but what
    have the recent entries to do with the topic?
    
    Richard
    

    The issue raised was that Christmas originated as a pagan holiday.  I
    mentioned that Jesus celebrated unscriptural holidays because they
    glorified the father.  Somebody mentioned Jesus was probably an Aries
    or a Taurus due to his leadership abilities.  I pointed out the
    astrology was a form of Baal worship or originated from it.  Somebody
    said the wise men were astrologers, I pointed out the wise men's
    errors. 
    
    As usual, it has nothing to do with the topic.  It became a rathole.
    
    -Jack

    Magi were not astrologers, they were specialists in dreams and visions. 
    Study Daniel and the history/culture of the Babylonian captivity. 
    Daniel was a Magi and his God-given skills are most evident in that
    book.
    
    Mike

    
    Thanks for the information on the Magi, Mike.
    
    	Eric