Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

 This allegedly took place at Anchor Baptist Church in Woburn, MA.  I
 have the article somewhere and I'll try to post it later.  I am familiar
 with this church, as is my pastor, and without divulging any details
 there is a great deal of exaggeration in the press accounts. 

 And, I know of no Independant Baptist Churches that believe Baptism is
 necessary for salvation (this church is an independant baptist church) or
 which would forcibly baptise kids.





 Jim

    
     D.A. Looking Into Complaints of Group Baptism

     By RICHARD LORANT, Associated Press, 08/27/96

     WOBURN, Mass. (AP) - A Baptist church used
     promises of pizza and basketball games to attract
     hundreds of children, then gave them full-body
     baptisms into a faith that is foreign to many of
     them, parents charge.

     Prosecutors and police in five communities are
     investigating the complaints against Anchor
     Baptist Church.

     Parents say the church enticed teen-agers and
     younger children onto buses on at least two
     occasions in July. Instead of getting pizza, the
     children allegedly were taken to the church in
     Woburn, made to sit through a long service, then
     told to undress and put on robes. Those who
     complied were quickly dunked into a tank of water,
     parents say.

     Many of the children from Woburn, Medford,
     Stoneham, Cambridge and Somerville are Roman
     Catholic. At least one family involved is
     Buddhist.

     ``They didn't tell us about Mass or anything,''
     said Rosa Vazquez, 14, a Catholic who attended a
     service with a friend but wouldn't go through the
     baptism. ``They just told us about the good
     stuff.''

     No one responded by phone or in person at the
     white wooden church. Calls to its pastor, the Rev.
     Chris Pledger, were not returned.

     Pledger, who has described his congregation as
     independent, defended his recruiting practices in
     an interview last month with the Woburn Advocate.

     ``Jesus told us to go into the world and preach
     the gospel. Baptism is doing more than just
     hearing what the man said and if it's in the
     Bible, who am I to say what is right?'' he told
     the newspaper.

     The state Department of Social Services has said
     an 8-year-old boy was emotionally harmed in one of
     the incidents. The agency wouldn't elaborate.

     Most of the children are from public housing
     projects.

     ``Families around here are lucky to get pizza once
     a month, so if they offer it to kids, they go,''
     said Lisa Amorin, who said her 3-year-old son,
     Steven, has been repeatedly approached by church
     members.

     Twelve-year-old Hieu Nguyen, whose family
     practices Buddhism, said he didn't understand what
     was happening when he and his 9-year-old brother,
     Qui, were baptized. He said he went along because
     other children did.

     ``We had to go into this bathroom. We had to take
     off all our clothes and put on this plastic
     thing,'' he said. ``Then we had to go into this
     room and they held our nose and put us in the
     water.''

     It is unclear how many children were baptized, and
     whether some parents had signed permission slips,
     police said.

     The Middlesex District Attorney is reviewing
     allegations from three of the communities to
     determine whether any laws were broken,
     spokeswoman Jill Reilly said Tuesday.

     Other Baptists are troubled by the complaints.

     ``We're all being painted with the same brush
     because Baptist is in the name,'' said the Rev.
     Carol Boutwell of First Baptist Church in Woburn.
     ``That is not common to our church at all.''

     AP-DS-08-27-96 2107EDT

  Z  Of course, tlike many other things, there are two views.  The ardent
  Z      christian might see the action as saving souls, 
    
    This of course was an exercise in futility.  Not only does baptism not
    save an individual, it was coerced upon children who had no idea what
    they were taking part in.
    
    -Jack

>    This of course was an exercise in futility.

    Goodness!  We agree!

    Gee... And I was getting all excited about having another
    argument :*)

    Tom

    Well, isn't it supposed to be a necessary piece in being saved?  At
    least in the views of some christian churches? 
    
    I guess most are baptized as infants (at least I was) and wouldn't be
    congnizant of what was going on anyway.  I don;t believe it's necessary
    for the "baptizee" to know what's going on.  In the catholic church,
    there is a surrogate set of "God Parents" which are supposed to be
    aware "for" the child.
    
    -dave

    We had this happen last year in C Springs, by another independant
    Baptist church.  There was no criminal action, but some parents are
    seeking legal recourse.  
    
    Same sort of thing.  Bus came through asking kids if they wanted to go
    to a pizza party.  Kids were encouraged to be baptized and several
    were, apparently without knowing the rest of the commitment that should
    go with baptism.  
    
    meg

 
Baptism is an act of obedience that follows salvation, but it is not
required.  My church is a Baptist church, quite similar to this one,
and it is a well understood rule that we will baptise no children without
parental knowledge and permission.  In addition, we do not transport kids
on our busses without parental permission.

I suspect that this church was holding their Vacation Bible School program
and was out bringing in kids for that.  We did something similar this summer,
where we bussed the kids in 5 nights, they viewed a couple skits that continued
each night, then were taken to classes for there age groups and they
worked on crafts, etc.  They also had the opportunity to hear the gospel.


And each instance of Baptism that takes place in the Bible, of which I
am aware, is done right after someone was saved, and they understood why.



 Jim

    Re: Jack & Jim
    
    Amen!  

    Re .7 (Jim)
    
    But isn't it customary, in some christian churces anyway, to baptize
    infants?  How can baptism follow salvation in this case?
    
    -dave

    
>    But isn't it customary, in some christian churces anyway, to baptize
>    infants?  How can baptism follow salvation in this case?
    
 

     That's a rathole down which I'd rather not go.  However, there are
     few Protestant churches, that I know of, that practice infant baptism.
     



 Jim

    Most Protestant churches that I am familiar with practice infant
    Baptism.  i.e. United Church of Christ, United Methodist,
    Episcopal(Do Episcopal Churches consider themself Protestant).
    
    Infant Baptism is a welcoming of the infant into the Community of
    Faith.  The parents, God Parents, and the Faith Community all affirm
    their responsibility for the bringing up of the child as part of the
    Christian community.
    
    During adolescents, the children go thru a second ceremony, called
    confirmation in some churches, called joining the church in others.
    (called coming of age ceremony in the UU church).  At this time the
    adolescent themselves, recommittment themselves to the Faith.
    
    The Gospels and the Pauline Letters, tell the story of first generation
    Christians.  Christianity was not the established church and people
    were welcomed into Christianity from other religions.  The prophecy of
    the imminent end of the world did not come true, and Christianity
    became an established religion.  The process of accepting and welcoming
    children into the faith, was not directly a part of biblical faith,
    although the Words of Jesus himself imply that Children are very much a
    part of the faith, and even more likely candidates for salvation than
    adults.  In two poignant passages, he welcomed the children as the
    elders were trying to spare him the distraction and he said, unless we
    become as little children, we will not inherit the kingdom of God.
    
    The ceremony of welcoming the infant into the community of Faith and
    asking for the affirmation of the parents, God Parents and Faith
    Community of their support for the child is a compelling and good
    ceremony.  It is also good that the child herself, once she reaches
    adolescents has the opportunity to recommit to the Faith she inherited
    from her parents and faith community.
    
    Patricia

 Z   But isn't it customary, in some christian churces anyway, to baptize
 Z       infants?  How can baptism follow salvation in this case?
    
    There are two ways of looking at Baptism.
    
    The first is the one I subscribe to at this time.  Baptism in the
    context of the New Testament is in the greek, "Baptizo" which means to
    immerse of to placed into.  The significance is that when we are
    submerged into the water we identify with Christ's death and burial. 
    When we come out of the water we are raised unto a new life...a new
    creation.  Baptism is an outward sign to the world of our new life...
    it is symbolic...it has no regenerative power whatsoever.  Every
    example of scriptural baptism was given by an adult who was baptized of
    their own free volition.  
    
    The other belief, infant baptism, ties in with the sign of the
    covenant.  In the Old Testament, circumcision on the eighth day after
    birth was an outward sign (so to speak) of identification with God's
    people.  It was to be performed on all male infants on the eighth day
    after birth.  If one joined the Israelites as an adult, they were still
    circumcised (what a life!! :-)), and thereby identified with God's
    people.  Baptism is the same concept.  It is an identification and
    acknowledgement of the new covenant...and since infants were identified
    in the old, and it was the choice of the parents, then it stands to
    reason that baptism can act in like manner.  
    
    The holes with this thinking I need to clear is that first, lack of
    circumcision resulted in being cut off (no pun intended), from their
    people.  Baptism doesn't offer the same consequence.  Secondly, baptism
    is gender neutral whereas circumcision was obviously to make male ONLY
    children a cut above the rest, (sorry...I'm on a role! :-)).  
    
    You can slice it either way....it's really up to you!
    
    -Jack
    

     Z   The prophecy of
     Z   the imminent end of the world did not come true, and Christianity
     Z   became an established religion. 
    
    Patricia, could you please qualify this?  Are you speaking of Jesus
    saying, "truly I say unto you, this generation will not pass unto all
    these things have come to pass."?
    
    -Jack

    Jim,
    
    I hope that at some time you can provide more of the details about this
    incident.  I too find it hard to believe that the church did what the
    Globe implied the church did in kidnapping these children.  

    You sound giddy this morning Jack :-)
    
    Well, it was my understanding that some believe(d) that it was
    essential for salvation.  In the past, newborn infants were rushed to the 
    church within hours after they were born (infant mortality being what
    it was).  Since the mother was not in any physical condition to be
    making what would sometimes be a long journey to the church, relatives
    or friends would act as surrogates, thus the birth of God Parents.
    
    What prompted this sort of behaviour? There must be some compelling
    biblical rationale for their actions, and those of the Anchor church.
    
    -dave
    
    

>    Jim,
    
 >   I hope that at some time you can provide more of the details about this
 >   incident.  I too find it hard to believe that the church did what the
 >   Globe implied the church did in kidnapping these children.  


   This is now a matter involving the DA, and I don't think it wise to
   comment.  However, I believe it is safe to say that the article
   was exaggerated.




 Jim

 Z   What prompted this sort of behaviour? There must be some compelling
 Z   biblical rationale for their actions, and those of the Anchor
 Z   church.
    
    There are some who prescribe to the teaching of baptismal regeneration. 
    I don't know exactly where the teaching began.  I do know the verses
    used for example, by the Boston Church of Christ, to endorse such a
    belief are taken very much out of context.  In fact, they use Acts
    2:38, Romans 6, and a small passage from 2nd Peter 3 to affirm this
    belief.  It is not taken in context with the theme of the whole New
    Testament.
    
    -Jack 

>    What prompted this sort of behaviour? There must be some compelling
>    biblical rationale for their actions, and those of the Anchor church.
    
 

     All that is publically known about the actions of Anchor Baptist Church
     is what has been printed in the newspapers.  We all know that not all
     that is printed in the newspapers is accurate.



 Jim    
    

    >We all know that not all
    >     that is printed in the newspapers is accurate.
    
    Agreed.  There'll probably be hearings and some sort of testimony, at
    which time more accurate info may be available.
    
    -dave