Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

re .1

Andreas,

;what does it mean to be a man? 

In what sense?, as God originally created him. That
is in his image, reflecting his fine qualities such
as love and justice.

;what does it mean to be a jesus following man?

Not sure I understand the question. However, Peter
tells that Jesus left a model for his disciples to
follow closely (1 Peter 2:21). Jesus was the one that
made his Father known, thus imitating Jesus can help
one reflect godly qualities.

Husbands are instructed to treat their wives the same
way Jesus treats his congregration.

Phil.

.0> what does it mean to be a man? 

in my opinion, since the african american, the gay and particularly the 
feminist movement, the most significant gain which these big liberation 
movements have brought to each modern day individual, is the liberation 
from stereotypes and stereotypical behaviour and with it, the freedom to
define and choose own alternatives.

as individuals we are today freer than our parents or grandparents were.
we are freer to define ourselves through the work we choose to do, how we 
want to live, how we want to dress.

however, the process of liberation from stereotypes is not yet complete.
there are still varying degrees of freedom. not all jobs are open to
everyone. education is not readily available to everyone. not all individual 
life styles are generally accepted. 

i, as a caucasian, heterosexual, academic, middle-class male in his
mid thirties could well answer to the question: "what does it mean to be 
a man?" "it means to be a winner, all doors are open to me." in fact, the
doors to influence and power are pretty much open to me and i can get to 
where i want with putting in less effort and encountering less resistance 
than what a woman, an african american, a gay, might.

so i prefer to answer to the question "what does it mean to be a man?"
it means to be aware of inequality. awareness *does* bring responsibility
(a conservative christian might even say "accountability") and behaving
responsibly as a man, means countering inequality. the above would also
be my answer to "what does it mean to be a jesus following man?"



andreas.

91.4853
>   All I was inferring here is that Jesus IS the perfect role model as a
>   man and it's too bad that most of society sees him portrayed as an
>   effeminate sissy at times.

jack, might it perhaps be merely your fear that "society sees him portrayed 
as an effeminate sissy at times" ?

91.4850                  
>   I can tell you from what I have seen that Jesus is usually portrayed as
>   a sissy type...especially on stained glass windows in big churches.  

isn't the interpretation of a portrait highly subjective? 

what does a portrait of jesus praying or washing his disciples feet convey?
genuine humility, love. what more?

personally i believe the fact that jesus may have had feminine attributes
may have been his strength. overcoming male instinct to "hit back" but 
instead, to turn the other cheak must have made him into a fuller man.
i think it takes more guts than we can imagine to reach that point of being
able to offer the other cheak [and still get out of it as winners].


andreas.

	andreas, your .2 was simply amazing. I agree with it 100%. 

    <<< Note 1067.2 by DECALP::GUTZWILLER "happiness- U want what U have" >>>

>as individuals we are today freer than our parents or grandparents were.
>we are freer to define ourselves through the work we choose to do, how we 
>want to live, how we want to dress.
    
    	I agree that we are freer to define ourselves, but the problem
    	arises when we expect others to accept our definitions.  
    
    	Others should be equally free to accept or reject our definitions.
    
>however, the process of liberation from stereotypes is not yet complete.
    
    	Stereotypes are not necessarily wrong.  Quite often (most times,
    	in my opinion) people *do* fall into stereotypical roles,
    	behaviors, etc.  The word stereotype has developed an unfair
    	stigma.
    
    	And all the while, people are perfectly happy to be stereotypical,
    	and they should be free to define themselves that way, just as
    	you want to be free to be liberated from stereotypes.

    <<< Note 1067.3 by DECALP::GUTZWILLER "happiness- U want what U have" >>>

>personally i believe the fact that jesus may have had feminine attributes
>may have been his strength. overcoming male instinct to "hit back" but 
>instead, to turn the other cheak must have made him into a fuller man.
>i think it takes more guts than we can imagine to reach that point of being
>able to offer the other cheak [and still get out of it as winners].

	I can see what Jack is saying about wimpiness (hey, I precipitated
    	the thread in the other note!)
    
    	It takes a tough man to turn the other cheek.  Or it takes an
    	absolute wimp.  Most of us fall somewhere in between and do
    	not turn the other cheek.
    
    	Too often Jesus is portrayed solely as the lamb because that
    	makes for great symbolism.  He has doe eyes, soft pale skin, 
    	a quiet voice, a tender hands.  But I doubt that He was really 
    	all that tender externally.  People heard him when he preached 
    	from the boat.  His skin was probably rough and tanned.  His
    	hands, those of a carpenter, were probably muscular and calloused,
    	thick, rugged.  Portrayals of Jesus often show him being helped
    	onto the boat like a maiden, where in fact he could probably
    	rig and sail a ship with the best of them.  Would a man with the
    	demeanor of Barney Fife (Don Knotts) have been able to drive the 
    	money changers from the temple?
    
    	This is not to imply that Jesus did not have feminine attributes,
    	and Andreas captured that well in .3.  What I'm speaking about is
    	the frequent depiction of Jesus being as devoid of masculine
    	attributes as possible.

.5>    	Stereotypes are not necessarily wrong.  Quite often (most times,
.5>    	in my opinion) people *do* fall into stereotypical roles,
.5>    	behaviors, etc.  The word stereotype has developed an unfair
.5>    	stigma.

sure. one could even argue that most of our behaviour *is* stereotypical.
if we choose to, it can make us feel very comfortable to assume stereotypical 
roles. there is little wrong with that. 

a more appropriate term than "liberation from stereotypes" might have been
"liberation from the dictate of quietly assumed and unquestioned stereotypes."

the only important question is, are we aware of our behaviour, respectively,
of the choices which we have made. 

also, whether this is "liberation" or additional "burden of choice" is for
the individual to know!



andreas.

	I guess we can see things in different ways. When I read andreas note
about sterotypes, I had thought he meant that the sterotypes were seen mostly
as something negative, which is what has changed in some cases and continues to 
in others. andreas, is this what you meant in your note about the stereotypes?


Glen

ZZ    jack, might it perhaps be merely your fear that "society sees him
ZZ    portrayed 
ZZ    as an effeminate sissy at times" ?
    
    Yes, it could be...but I honestly never think about it.  I will say
    that the only description of the physical demeanor of Jesus is found in
    Isaiah 53...which the stained glass I've seen doesn't portray.  Also,
    Joe's explanation of the ruddy carpenter look makes sense.
    
    But if he was the same as the stained glass portrayed, It would make no
    diff to me.  I just think pictures of Jesus cause stereotypes that are
    unnecessary...therefore it is probably best not to have them.
    
    What makes a man...one who sets a spiritual tone in his home.   This
    sums up the whole package of the attributes of the Holy Spirit.
    
    -Jack

.8> andreas, is this what you meant in your note about the stereotypes?

yes i did, glen. a stereotype becomes a negative if it prescribes conformant
behaviour when such behaviour is not what you choose for yourself.

if the stereotype of "male" is a butch, out-door kind of guy, who only speaks
when there is something important to say and who has difficulty in articulating 
his emotions... well, if you don't feel like this is the type you want to be, 
you get my point.

on the other hand (and this is the other side of the same issue) a stereotype
provides a handy role to slip into. for instance, if i do have difficulty in
articulating my emotions, then when i'm confronted with this my weakness, 
i can just say "hey look, i'm just a MALE!" and hiding behind the stereotype
i hope not to have to articulate emotions at length! 

in a sense, stereotypical behaviour provides protection, like "i don't have 
to be myself, i just do what is expected"

if stereotypical behaviour suits me, then fine. but if it causes me to suppress
aspects of my personlity then i will become ill with it in the long run.
so recognising assumed (stereotypical) patterns and own needs and wants in
one's own behaviour is most important for health and sanity. this questioning
of traditional stereotypes of women and men and redefinition of conformity is, 
imo, what much of what the liberation movements (gays, feminists) are about.



andreas.

	andreas, that's a very good point. I hadn't given much thought to the
using a stereotype to your advantage. I'm glad you brought that up, as I think
it will make for some interesting conversation in here. I can hear Jack warming
up his fingers now! :-)


Glen

glen, you may just be seriously underestimating jack's capacity to see through 
stereotypes! :-)



andreas.

re .10

	Andreas,
	
	I find it hard to communicate, and it is not because people 
	stereotype men as such. Though I agree with you it's so much 
	easier to say "Hey, I'm just a man what do you expect!", 
	rather than accepting ones weaknesses and trying to overcome 
	them. Therefore I agree with you that one should not fall into 
	the trap of thinking along the lines of what you call "stereotype 	
	behaviour", for it could hinder ones self development as well 
	as burden ones family (eg I'm a man and men don't go shopping 
	or cook etc.... even if the wife is ill). 

	Jesus was a wonderful communicator, he impressed the Roman
	governor so much that Pontius Pilate was moved to proclaim
	"Look! The man!" (John 19:5). Following on from another note
	string Jesus is the role model to follow. Not his outward 
	appearance, but the type of person he was(is) on the inside. 
	This will help one be a man.

	Phil.

phil, with so many men suffering from the same problem, i am beginning to 
believe that this difficulty of communicating feeling is not stereotypical 
behaviour but rather a gender specific handicap! :-)


a man like jesus, who could live love and speak of love, truly is well worth
studying!




andreas.

;but rather a gender specific handicap! :-)

Andreas,

This seems to be the case, in my experience this 
is one of the hardest things to come to terms with 
as a husband. And yet, communication is one of the 
main ingredients that leads to the success of a 
marriage and/or family.

Communication is difficult for some men for it
includes listening as well as talking. Often
when a wife shares the things that have been
bothering her, a husbands reaction may be to 
give a solution when all the wife wants is a
listening ear. It can infuriate them at times. 

No doubt it would be worth discussing how Jesus 
communicated with people, especially the congregation,
in this note string.  

Ephesians 5:25 NWT "Husbands, continue loving your
wives, just as the Christ also loved the congregation
and delivered up himself for it,"

Or perhaps another note string would be more appropriate
to discuss communication.

Phil.

    Phil,
    
    It might be more helpful to use Jesus as a role model for HUMAN
    behavoir if we stick to the Gospels.
    
    

re .16

	Patricia,

	Sounds fine to me, perhaps we could all contribute
	on things that caught our eye regarding Jesus as
	a role model.

	Phil. 

    Should we go into a church and practice the same ferver Jesus did when
    his house was being used as a den of robbers?
    
    -Jack

    	Well, Jack, maybe we should if that church really IS being
    	used as a den of robbers!

    I was waiting for somebody to say live and let live!
    
    -Jack

re .18,.19

or how about getting a group together and then go and beat up who gets to you
most!



andreas.

re Note 1067.20 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN:

>     I was waiting for somebody to say live and let live!

        Jack,

        Your stereotypes of liberal Christians don't match liberal
        Christians very well.

        (Perhaps they match some other kinds of liberals, but being
        Christian really does make a difference!)

        Bob

    	re .21
    
    	What's the deal, Andreas?  You usually are pretty rational,
    	but this is the second unfounded projection upon me that I've
    	come across from you today.
    
    	What have I done to you that you should start doing this to me?

| <<< Note 1067.23 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Whatever happened to ADDATA?" >>>

| What have I done to you that you should start doing this to me?

	Probably the same thing you do to everyone else, tick them off. 

"Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in
heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and
my burden is light." Mattew 11:28-30 RSV

One of the main things that drew his disciples to Jesus was his humility.
Though being in authority as God's anointed one, Jesus never used his
position to belittle his disciples or make them look stupid. The gospel 
accounts certainly paint a picture of Jesus being "lowly in heart" or 
humble. This would have been in stark contrast to the religious leaders, 
who loved their prominent place, also they looked with disdain at the 
common people using negative terms such as 'amha'a'rets ("people of the 
land [earth]"). This Jewish culture, of seeking prominence, certainly 
rubbed off onto Jesus' apostles for often they would bicker who was the 
greatest among them. Jesus had to loving correct them on many occasions. 
Though the disciples found this teaching of humility difficult to grasp 
at times, Jesus never got angry with them but firmly  helped them to see 
the need for humble service towards God.

I guess the main occassion that everyone thinks about, were Jesus showed
his disciples a lesson in humility was at the passover just before his
death. It was customary for the host to see that a guest's feet was
washed, when inviting someone to a meal. In this case there was no host,
so after a little while, Jesus siezes the opportunity to perform this
personal service. Any of the apostles could have siezed the opportunity
themselves to do this, but maybe because of personal rivalry or not
wanting to loose face they do not. The apostles are embarrassed as Jesus 
begins to wash their feet. (John 13:1-17)

Jesus later goes onto relate that he is setting the pattern for his
apostles. This is not in ritual foot washing, but humble service to God
as well as their fellow brothers and sisters. That is a willingness to 
serve without partiality, eventhough the task maybe a menial or unpleasant 
one. They should not seek number 1 position, thinking that others should 
always serve them.

Today the spirit of the world is "me first". However, Chistians should 
strive to follow the example of Jesus in humble service so as to shrug
off the spirit of self importance.

Phil.