Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    I believe we also bear the burden of collective sin.  I've lost
    track of how many official secrets as a nation we're harboring.
    Then there are the cover-ups and the cover-up of the cover-ups.
    Our sickness runs deep.
    
    God of Truth, bring light into the recesses of our darkness as a
    people, as a society, as a nation.  Let truth clear our vision.  Let
    truth prevail over denial, fear and shame.  Amen.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    
    -1
    
    Hmmm...interesting thought Richard.  God definitely judged Israel as a
    whole people.  I do believe God will judge this country as well.  
    Everyone seems so fed up with the justice system not seeming to find 
    guilt even when there is strong, even conclusive evidence.  I do 
    believe that God will judge where no justice exists.  I forget the 
    exact reference I'm thinking of here...
    
    Jill
    

    I believe there are three judgements listed in the Bible.  The
    Judgement seat of Christ (For believers), the Great White Throne
    Judgement (For non-believers) and a judgement called The Judgement 
    of Nations in Matthew 23.  I believe this is referring to the 
    tribulation period.  I believe this will be a time in the not so
    distant future, where the Holiness of God will be revealed.
    
    The fall of Ninevah, the Fall of Babylon, the Exile, The Roman Empire,
    Ramses of Egypt, did all these nations fall because they were 
    warlike, or because of Godlessness?  Perhaps both.  What can we as
    America the nation learn from these former superpowers?
    
    A question I'd love to get an answer to.  I hear some pastors today 
    calling for unilateral disarmament.  What about it?  Is this type of
    action perceived as virtuous or fool-hardiness?
    
    -Jack

    I don't believe unilateral disarmament to be more foolhardy by the
    standards of the world than following Christ.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

.3 AIMHI::JMARTIN

   ...the Great White Throne Judgement (For non-believers)...

Interesting. Would you please elaborate a bit?

Thanks, Steve

    Hi Steve:
    
    The Great White Throne Judgement as described in Revelation 20 I
    believe.  This is the horrible judgement where all those not found in
    the Lambs Book of Life is cast into the lake of fire.  
    
    "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God.  And the
    books were opened, and another book was opened which is the book of
    life.  And the dead were judged by their works which are recorded in
    the books.  And anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of
    Life was thrown into the Lake of Fire."  Revelation 20.
    
    This is a dispensational topic and some view it differently.  My
    observation is that this is a prophecy of the final judgement of God.  
    Our eternal security has already been determined, This judgement is
    more a less a time of sentencing.
    
    I believe "the books" as written have recorded in them every idle thought
    and action that we have ever committed in our lives.  I believe that as
    it says in the scriptures, Those who live by the law will be judged by
    the law.  The law of God reveals our sin to us.  Those who are judged
    by their deeds will have the revelation that their deeds only bring 
    God's wrath.  The Books are only there to reveal God's unmistakable
    holiness and our unmistakable sinfulness.  There is no hope at this
    point.
    
    The Lambs Book of Life will reveal only those who have accepted the
    Blood of the Lamb as the only sacrifice for their sin.  "For there is
    none other, neither is there any other name given among men under
    heaven whereby we must be saved."  This is what the book of Acts tells
    us and I believe this.  
    
    In my natural state, I belong at the Great White Throne judgement as a 
    condemned man.  I only have Jesus as my plea, nothing other.  I will
    face God in my natural state only as absolutely wretched and without
    hope.  Since accepting Christ, I can now stand boldly before God
    because I now have an advocate and a mediator on my behalf, Jesus!
    
    Hope I explained myself clearly.
    
    -Jack

re: Note 950.6 by Jack

>    I believe "the books" as written have recorded in them every idle thought
>    and action that we have ever committed in our lives.  

This reminds me of when I because a lay reader and lay eucharistic minister
in my church.  In preparation, we were given several books, papers and such 
and we discussed them in several classes for that purpose.

We were told that there would be a "test" at the end.  Most people were very 
nervous, "crammed" in preparation for the test.  (I didn't.  My test 
philosophy in school was either I already knew the material or I didn't, and 
if I didn't, cramming wouldn't help.)

Anyway, we gathered together to take the test, which was given orally one at a 
time.  The single "test" question was "do you want to do this?"

How does this relate to what you said?  I wonder if God is going to review 
each idle thought, jot, and tittle, or not.  Maybe the test question is simply 
"Do you love me?"

Peace,

Jim

    I personally believe that the books would reveal nothing better than
    hate and that the human condition is desparately wicked, i.e. the heart
    of man.  I believe the books are strictly there for our benefit, not
    for Gods.   He already knows the outcome! 
    
    I am comforted by 1st Corinthians 3 where it talks of how the believers
    works will be tested with fire.  Even if somebody does not build upon
    the foundation of Christ, they will still be saved yet only as one
    escaping through the flames.
    
    -Jack

re .6 AIMHI::JMARTIN

Quite clearly, 

Thanks.

    Jim
    
    Re.7
    
    Great response.
    
    Patricia

    When I say I hope to communicate clearly, what I really mean is that I
    put a sense of urgency into yor heart.  It doesn't have to be a bummer,
    it is our choice!!!!
    
    -Jack

    RE .0
    
    another approach is not to call it secret sin but to deal with the
    Shame.  Not the Guilt of having done something wrong but the shame of
    having something wrong done to us,  the Shame of feeling the need to
    keep it secret, and the shame not of feeling that we have done
    something wrong, but that we are "wrong".
    
    Naming the shame for what it is is a healthy healing act.
    
    
    I would recommend John Bradshaw's book, <healing the Shame that Binds> for
    anyone struggling with childhood issues.
    
    

    If it were up to me, I would have the book of revelation decanonized. 
    I see nothing worthwhile in that book of hate.
    
    Another knee jerk, impartial opinion.
    
    Patricia

      re: -1
    
      The more Revelation is understood, the more God's love is revealed.
      I'm not sure whether you were purposely being sarcastic or not, but
      having such an opinion of Revelation is only possible if the eyes of
      faith are barely open.  Lack of sight paints an inaccurate picture.
    
      And I'm not saying my eyes are very open either!
    
                                                      Tony

    
    RE: .3
    
    Jack,
    
    Perhaps it's not an official judgement by name, but God is in control.
    He allowed the superpowers to flourish for a time and then He took them
    down or allowed them to fall.  We get an indication in the O.T. of why
    God allowed things to happen and sin was indeed a pivotal reason.
     
    Jill

    .12
    
    Those are two different subjects... one is taking responsibility for
    our actions and not letting control come from sources that aren't real
    but perceived i.e., past experiences, that is the shame that binds you.
    
    There is a proper shame or humility, if you will.
    
    I don't know if I've posted this in here before, but it is applicable
    to this piece of the discussion.
    

             <<< ATLANA::DUB1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN_V6.NOTE;1 >>>
        -< See 642.* - Conference rollover, Friday 2/27 @5pm EST (USA) >-
================================================================================
Note 374.26               Self Image and the Christian                  26 of 96
JULIET::MORALES_NA                                   75 lines   4-AUG-1992 11:25
                    -< Another Angle of the Same thing ??? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Sandy,

I still believe that self image is important.  

When our lives have been thrown out of balance by sin/shame everything changes 
and that which appears lucid becomes tainted, like looking through a dirty 
window.  What you see behind, is still the *same* thing, but the view is dirty 
from the stains on the window.

I see shame producing different results, as it affects our self image and 
ability to have a loving relationship with Christ:

1. shame - guilt - humility - salvation
2. shame - guilt - humility/humiliation - salvation
3. shame - guilt - humiliation - lost

Shame leads to guilt, and that guilt can lead to humility and eventually to 
salvation.  For others, the shame leads to guilt, humiliation and a sense of 
being completely and unreachably lost.

While I agree with you wholeheartedly that Christ needs to be the center of our 
lives, I propose to you that the process in getting there (based on childhood 
experiences), can be a long, difficult haul for the child that suffers from 
humiliation.

Our self image or mirror comes from:

    Parents / Authorities

In the Old Testament, God ordained by the law that if a man is caught 
breaking a law that the sons would bear the humiliation for generations and 
oftimes the consequences. (Cain banished and his people would be marked.)
Exodus 34:6-7

Children mirror their image in their parents.  If a parent is neglectful, 
unstable, deceitful, physically or sexually abusing, then the child has the 
"God-given shame" to know that is wrong, but the wounded child takes the 
parent's shame or sin and applies it to themselves.  When one of these 
children (it could be an adult who comes from this environment) accepts 
Christ as Savior, their salvation spawns hope beyond measure.  

The disconnect is that they are still carrying the sin/attitude of the 
parents.  Yes, God forgave them of their sin, and that is a miracle on its 
own merit.  But the wounded child cannot be forgiven for their father's 
(lineage) sins.  So once again that image can be tainted by sin (that which 
is not their own).

However, if salvation occurs while the child is still under the direct 
influence of their parents, who are abusive or dysfunctional, the child can 
grow into an adult who rarely has victory in their Christian walk.  They will 
become active in the church for a while, then temptation comes and due to the 
shame of their inability to overcome their father's sin, they abandon 
Christianity.  But, like a see-saw the desire to "do right" will bring them 
back and forth through churches, temporarily serving God, but never 
victorious for consistent Christian service.  

The condemnation of their self image creates an aura of "I'm not good enough 
to serve God."  Negative self criticisms like, "I don't deserve a place of 
service for God" or "I'll never be enough for God" mirrors and the image 
becomes distorted as to how God views his children.

Granted *we* never are enough.  But there comes a point in ones life when 
acceptance of *never* being enough is balanced by the grace and mercy of our 
Lord Jesus Christ, and not the knot deep within the pit of our stomachs that 
reeks havoc in the heart.  (Romans 7 & 8)

With this in mind, Sandy, can you really assert that a person's self image is 
not important to the very vitality of Christianity?

Nancy




    
    

    Patricia:
    
    I'm sorry you feel that way about Revelation.
    
    Let me ask you something.  If you were going to take a two hour drive
    to Cape Cod as a day trip and you turned on channel 5 and the
    weather report said, Overcast and thunderstorms much of the day....
    
    Would you call channel 5 and insistently state that the meteorologist
    be fired?  Food for thought.
    
    -Jack

re Note 950.6 by AIMHI::JMARTIN:

>     The Lambs Book of Life will reveal only those who have accepted the
>     Blood of the Lamb as the only sacrifice for their sin.  "For there is
>     none other, neither is there any other name given among men under
>     heaven whereby we must be saved."  This is what the book of Acts tells
>     us and I believe this.  
  
        This is really strange to think about.

        Normally, when a debt is owed, it is the one to whom the debt
        is owed who must "accept" the payment -- it isn't the debtor
        who has to accept it.

        You are saying that it isn't the one to whom the debt is owed
        who must accept it in this case, but the debtor.

        In effect, you are suggesting God will say "You owe part of
        this enormous debt (the collective debt of humanity), Jesus
        has deposited enough in this other account to cover the total
        debt, but since you don't know the account number, it's into
        the lake of fire for you!"

        It's enough to make one want the lake of fire (as opposed to
        spending eternity serving one who thinks that way)!

        Bob

re: Note 950.16 by Nancy "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" 

I appreciated your note, but I've got one question, mostly to clear up 
definitions.

Regarding shame and guilt, my definition are 

		shame:  I'm bad
		guilt:  I did something bad

How are you defining shame and guilt, re: 

> 1. shame - guilt - humility - salvation
> 2. shame - guilt - humility/humiliation - salvation
> 3. shame - guilt - humiliation - lost

Thanks,

Jim

    
    RE: .7
    
    Yes Jim.  That was a great response.  Indeed even those who have made
    it there life's work to study Revelation do not claim to know exactly
    what everything means.  
    
    I agree that it could be as simple of a test as "Do you love Me?"  But
    then again, is that really such a simple test. After all, isn't that
    what Christ asked Peter?  "Do you agape me?" Peter didn't seem to catch
    the inference Jesus was getting at. In John 14 and elsewhere it talks
    about us loving Jesus.  It says if we love Him, we obey Him.  Perhaps
    our lives will be played back and submitted as evidence.  Maybe
    it will be a big courtroom scene with Satan as the prosecutor (The
    Accuser) and Jesus as the defense attorney (Intercessor or Mediator). 
    There will be no insanity pleas, no loopholes. Only the evidence and a
    righteous judge.  And just like everyone else my life will be found
    worthy of eternal damnation except for one thing, Jesus will say "No, I
    paid for her.  She stays here with Me."  We don't have to have all the
    secrets of Revelation figured out thankfully, but we do have to accept
    the Truth that has already been given to us and live by it.
    
    Jill
    
    P.S.  One other thing...Jesus does accept cramming.  Think of the
    thief on the cross...in his final hours he accepted the Truth...he
    might not have ever went to church, or prayed, and he certainly had 
    never taken communion...but that day he was with Jesus in Paradise.
    It just goes to show, that Jesus gives us every second of our lives
    to decide if we will spend eternity with Him or not.  But unlike
    the thief we don't always have the convenience of knowing our time
    is up.
    

re Note 950.17 by AIMHI::JMARTIN:

>     Let me ask you something.  If you were going to take a two hour drive
>     to Cape Cod as a day trip and you turned on channel 5 and the
>     weather report said, Overcast and thunderstorms much of the day....
>     
>     Would you call channel 5 and insistently state that the meteorologist
>     be fired?  Food for thought.
  
        Jack,

        Your analogy is incomplete.  It would be more complete if the
        weather report said overcast and thunderstorms much of the
        day and concluded with a recommendation that it would be an
        ideal day to go to the Cape.

        You might very well call up channel 5 and insistently state
        that going to the Cape on such a day would be a terrible
        idea, especially if the forecast were correct (and if the
        forecast were incorrect, the report would have even less
        merit).

        Bob

    From a RO noter:
    
    My point of view is that I'm driving to the Cape and hear
    that there are going to be thunderstorms.  I call Channel
    5 and they give me a free plane ticket to Hawaii.
    
    That is how I see Revelation - whether I chose to accept
    the free ticket is my decision - yours may differ.
    
    Pam
    
    Back to RO

    RE: .18
    
    Bob,
    
    Hmmm....interesting thinking indeed...actually pretty creative thinking
    if you ask me.  Jesus gave a parable about a man owing 10,000 talents
    and being forgiven for that debt.  I wonder if we realize how absurd
    this seemed to the Jews.  Ten thousand was the highest number they used
    at the time...there was no need for anything higher and a talent was
    the highest denomination of money.  He was trying to show them
    something comparable to the debt we owe for sin.  What we have to
    accept is that we have this debt and no way of paying for it.  What we
    have accept is Christ's grace in forgiving the debt.  What we owe then
    is a life of gratitude and service to Him not because we have to
    (demanded) but because we have to (we can't stand not to).  Isn't that
    what love does?
    
    Jill

    .22
    
    Good analogy Pam!

re: .18

>        You are saying that it isn't the one to whom the debt is owed
>        who must accept it in this case, but the debtor.

The one to whom the debt is owed (God) accepted the payment already (Jesus
death in our place).

What is required is for us to accept that we owe, and someone else paid
what we cannot.

Us not accepting is like saying to God "I don't need your charity.  I'll
pay myself, thank you very much."

-Steve

| <<< Note 950.17 by AIMHI::JMARTIN >>>




| Would you call channel 5 and insistently state that the meteorologist
| be fired?  Food for thought.


	Why would Patricia want to watch Dickie!!?? :-)


Glen

    There is just enough truth in this note to be meaningful.
    
    I do believe that we are as sick as our secrets.  Healing comes when we
    learn to trust others and tell our secrets.  Secrets always have a way
    of nawing at the soul.
    
    Trust in our fellow human beings and trust in the Divine are
    complementary characteristics.  I believe that no one is able to trust
    in God until they are able to trust in humanity and no one is able to
    trust in humanity until they are able to trust in God.  I had
    discovered this circular argument before I learned that trust and faith
    came from the same greek root.  Faith is trust.  Trust is Faith.
    
    Likewise, we cannot love God until we can love another and we cannot
    love another until we can love God.  This is what the Incarnation of
    God means to me.  We we love and trust a fellow human being we
    encounter Christ within that human being.  When that human being
    returns the love and trust, then Christ is working through that person.
    
    We cannot love God or another person until we love ourselves.
    
    To love God, To love ourselves, and to love our neighbors is my
    Trinity.  Shame is a destructive emotion that keeps us from all three.
    
    Shame is not Guilt and Guilt is not Shame.  Guilt is a internal compass
    that keeps us on Course.  Shame is something imposed on us through
    internalizing abuse.  Turning to a power outside of ourself, whether
    that be God, another person, a community, a church and letting go of
    the shame is the first step of freeing ourself from that destructive
    emotion.  Grace is the gift of acceptance.  Salvation is the feeling of
    acceptance into a community of love:  a holy community.  Hell is on
    earth and it is being isolated, alienated, and separated from the
    community.  Salvation is through God's Grace and is experienced as
    inclusion into the holy community.  In Pauline terms, it is becoming
    part of the Body of Christ; a community of love and acceptance and
    grace.
    
    Patricia
    
    

re Note 950.23 by CSC32::KINSELLA:

>     What we
>     have accept is Christ's grace in forgiving the debt.  

        It also sounds like we have to accept that Christ will pound
        the H*** out of us (actually, into us :-{ ) if we don't
        accept it in the right way.

>     Isn't that
>     what love does?
  
        Well -- no!!!!!

        Bob

      re: .18
    
      Hi,
    
        I'd like to offer a different twist on salvation.
    
        We're talking about debt here.  No doubt Jesus paid a debt
        in order to deliver us.  But, the question is, just what
        is it that required the debt in the first place?
    
        It sounds to me like it is inferred here that the debt that
        was required was a penalty God demanded as a punishment for
        sinning.  That is...we are delivered from God.  Jesus' payment
        reconciles God back to us.
    
        I believe that God's law of which agape is the fulness of "seeks
        not its own" and thus requires no punishment to begin with.
        God doesn't have such a need.
    
        What we need to be delivered from is not God, but SIN and only
        by surveying the cross and being melted by that love are we drawn
        from living a life of sin to allowing God to reshape our hearts.
    
        The cross was an infinite gift.  It was 100% necessary for our 
        salvation.  It is the cross which delivers us from sin and sin
        is our condemnation.
    
        To all who respond by faith to God, a cleansing begins. 
        Deliverance from sin has begun.  God accounts such a person as
        righteouss.  He honors those first steps of faith because He knows
        that provided the oppurtunity, they could have eventually beheld
        such a fulness of Christ lifted for them that sin would have been
        completely rooted from the life.
    
        The great judgment is simply when God unveils His love.  If sin
        is in the heart, the contrast of seeing that love unveiled reveals
        to the mind how evil they are.  That revelation of the core essence
        of their being causes despair and thus causes them to disbelieve
        (for unbelief is blindness) that God could ever accept them as they
        are.  This despair will ultimately result in eternal death; the
        psychic terror will manifest itself physically.
    
        This is the lake of fire.  It is simply the presence of God who is
        love.
    
        The redeemed also experience the lake of fire, but that love is 
        their ultimate joy for their hearts are fashioned to its likeness
        and no destructive contrast is experienced.
    
        In Daniel, King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon had three friends be
        thrown in a fiery furnace.  He had it made "seven times hotter."
        Seven is symbolic of completeness.  Here is symbolized the removal
        of the veil.  Daniel's friends survived the fire wholly unharmed.
        Meanwhile, the Babylonian guards who threw the friends in were
        consumed.
    
        The spiritual meaning of the story is that there is something 
        fundamentally different between Daniel's friends and the babylon-
        ian guards.  THE FIRE WAS THE SAME.
    
        Likewise, there are two houses.  One built on a rock, the other on
        sand.  A storm comes.  I believe it is the unveiled presence of 
        God.  The house built on the rock stands.  The other falls.  There
        is something inherently different about the fabric of these two
        houses.  Righteoussness stands when bathed with the presence of
        unveiled love.  Anyone in whom is sin is destroyed.
    
        It is all unarbitrary and a reality God cannot circumvent.
    
        Song of Solomon 8:6,7
        Set me as a seal upon your heart,
        As a seal upon your arm;
        For love is as strong as death,
        Jealousy as cruel as the grave;
        Its flames are flames of fire,
        A most vehement flame.
        Many waters cannot quench love,
        Nor can the floods drown it.
    
        There it is...the unquenchable fire...the love of God.
    
                                                    Tony
    

see also note 205.*  Guilt & Shame

Peace,

Jim

re: Note 950.29 by Tony

>               -< The Unquenchable Fire...What Is It Really??? >-

Interesting perspective, thought provoking.  Thanks,

Peace,

Jim

re Note 950.25 by CFSCTC::HUSTON:

> >        You are saying that it isn't the one to whom the debt is owed
> >        who must accept it in this case, but the debtor.
> 
> The one to whom the debt is owed (God) accepted the payment already (Jesus
> death in our place).
  
        Like I said before, it gets weirder the more you think about
        it!

        The debt is paid, the creditor acknowledges it, and *still*
        the creditor beats the living daylights out of the debtor on
        the pretense of extracting a payment!

        Bob

    re: .27
    
      Hi Patricia,
    
        The following is not really a nit so I need to comment.
    
        Trust and faith are not equivalent.  Trust is MOTIVATION-
        NEUTRAL.  For example, I can trust that if I have car
        insurance and get in an accident, I will receive some
        compensation.  I'm not criticizing this, I am just observing
        that I am looking out for _self_.
    
        Trust is a subset of faith, but it is also not motivation-
        neutral.  The motivation of faith is "The love of Christ 
        constrains me."  One is motivated by God's love.
    
        To illustrate further...
    
        Let's say you are about to enter heaven and Peter is there at
        the gates.  He describes heaven for you...beautiful mansions,
        jewelry, fresh clear running water, whatever.  The place is
        excellent beyond comprehension.  Then he says, "By the way,
        Christ is not here, He is on the cross."  A person of faith
        would choose to forfeit the mansion to be there on the cross 
        with Christ.  A person of trust (depending on motivation) might
        opt for the real estate he trusted for.  (Actually, the  latter
        is not possible as selfishly motivated trust does not save, but
        you get the idea.)
    
        Faith works by love.  Trust can work by motivations other than
        love.
    
                                                   Tony

    Tony,
    
    I heard a story that is compelling.  It is an allegory.
    
    A child of eight climbs to the top of a ladder.  A parent entices the
    child to fall backwards.  Let go.  I will catch you.  The child let's go. 
    The parent takes a step back and the child slams into the floor.  The
    parent says.  "see, now never trust anyone"
    
    Growing up in a dysfunctional home is like being a child on that
    ladder.  The truly beautiful thing is that the child never really gives
    up trusting.  THe child always wants to trust and ultimately finds
    someone worth trusting.  The love that is extended is a gift of grace. 
    Healing is the result.
    
    In the retreat I went to last week, we were playing with a parachute. 
    To finish the exercise, A volunteer was requested.  I volunteered not
    knowing what I was volunteering for.  The parachute was wrapped around
    me like a straight jacket.  The facilatator explained that all the
    persons around the parachute where going to rotate it and I was going
    to spin like a top.  Camp rules are that anyone can say stop at any
    time.  I was frightened.  I knew I could not spin like a top.  I was a
    fraction of an inch from saying stop.  The facilators were smiling and
    asking if I was nervous.  At that moment, in fear, I also came to the
    realization that the facilators would not let me be hurt.  I let go and
    trusted.  I had faith in them.  The parachute was pulled and I tumbled
    on top of the parachute and tumbled a bit.  It was harmless.
    
    That moment was priceless.  I vividly recognized my fear, but I
    instantly let go of the fear when I realized that I trusted the
    facilators.  I had faith that I was going to be OK.
    
    My Faith in Goddess/God is the same.  I have no good idea what
    Goddess/God has in store for me, but I trust that God is love.  That
    Goddess/God will nurture me and take care of me.  I don't need a free
    trip to hawaii or a mansion in the sky.  I am blessed just as I am.
    
    Patricia

    .19
    
    Your definitions are accurate for shame and guilt.
    
    Of course, please understand, that as you are reading further into my
    writing, I do clearly point out there is shame and guilt that exists in
    many people that are false beliefs about themselves.
    
    Nancy

re:  Note 950.35 by Nancy "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" 

>    Of course, please understand, that as you are reading further into my
>    writing, I do clearly point out there is shame and guilt that exists in
>    many people that are false beliefs about themselves.
    
I do.

Peace,

Jim

    RE:  .28 & .32
    
    Bob
    
    Hmmm...I was thought love came out in our actions and that we did
    things for the one loved because we wanted to make them happy.
    Maybe you see love differently.  
    
    Accept Christ the right way?  If you mean as Savior and Lord, then
    that's true.  I don't see how this is like a mob enforcer.  I mean you
    are giving a choice.  Yes, the choice does have consequences.  You're
    aware of the consequences.  He doesn't force you to choose one way over
    the other. This is not an exact analogy, but it might suffice:
    
        Two people work overtime, but to be paid DEC says you have to
        submit a timecard.  One does and is paid.  The other doesn't
        and starts whining about how DEC is so unfair and how he should
        be paid for what he feels he is owed him.  He did all the "right"
        things:  showed up to work, put in his hours, got things 
        accomplished that needed to be done, so why is DEC being so
        HATEFUL to him.  DEC requires evidence that the work was actually 
    	done.  He would be paid, if he'd just do what's required
        of him to receive payment.
    
    God laid out a simple plan.  The early church didn't just talk about
    Jesus as Savior, but as Lord.  They knew that love required action and
    they knew that actions alone didn't take the place of love.   Jesus did
    pay for the debt...the debt of those who believe in Jesus as their
    Savior and Lord.  The evidence is submitted to God; it's our heart.
    If the evidence is true, we receive payment to cover our debt.  If not, 
    we don't.  Some will have done the actions to try to defraud God, but
    there heart will show their true motives.  I guess you can think of
    hell as a debtor's prison.  You owed, the bill came due, you have 
    no means and never will have means to pay it.  The only way you could
    have would be to have mortgaged your life to Christ and you refused.
    So now you have your life.  Was it worth it as you sit in prison with
    a life sentence?  
    
    Jill

re Note 950.37 by CSC32::KINSELLA:

>         Two people work overtime, but to be paid DEC says you have to
>         submit a timecard.  One does and is paid.  The other doesn't
>         and starts whining about how DEC is so unfair and how he should
>         be paid for what he feels he is owed him.  He did all the "right"
>         things:  showed up to work, put in his hours, got things 
>         accomplished that needed to be done, so why is DEC being so
>         HATEFUL to him.  DEC requires evidence that the work was actually 
>     	done.  He would be paid, if he'd just do what's required
>         of him to receive payment.
  
        The problem with this analogy is that you have reversed the
        role of the debtor and the creditor.  DEC is the debtor in
        the case of wages already earned but not yet paid.

        Your analogy would be a lot closer if the worker was paid,
        acknowledges he has been paid, but since the check didn't
        have DEC's name on it the worker went and firebombed the
        mill.

        Bob

>    If it were up to me, I would have the book of revelation decanonized. 
>    I see nothing worthwhile in that book of hate.
    
    you would have to do that to Daniel and Ezekiel as well since the 3
    contain several parallels.

    I was actually surprised to find Daniel was not that bad.  I don't
    think I liked Ezekiel but I read it quickly while reading the other
    prophets.  I had a problem with the major metaphor used within the
    prophets and was a little stuck in seeing beyond the metaphor.  
    
    I am reminded, again by my handy women's Bible commentary that we can
    learned much about the Hebrew People from the prophets without
    accepting it all as Gospel.  We can in particular learn much about the
    religion of the Hebrew women even though much of that spirituality is 
    condemned by the male prophets.  
    
    Patricia
    I am ambiguous about the prophets because I am inspired by the concern
    for the marginalized in the prophets while at the same time appalled by
    the treatment of women.

    Daniel 9:24-27 contains one of the greatest prophecies in all of the
    Bible.  Through the inspiration of God, he prophetically tells of Jesus
    entry in Jerusalem down to the *EXACT* day - over 500 years before it
    happened.
    
    These books have great nuggets of truth in them if you're willing to do
    the research and take the extra effort to explore them.
    
    Mike

    And bend reality to fit the prophesies listed.

    And bend reality to fit the prophesies listed.

I thought that was MY line! :^O

    >    And bend reality to fit the prophesies listed.
    
    maybe you should analyze the passage before poking fun?

    You might be surprised to learn that the path you propose is one which
    has been explored quite thoroughly.
    
    Perhaps indoctrination is the imperitive, rather than illumination.
    

    Perhaps you have Richard.  Do you still question it after exploring it?

    I'm not sure what you mean by your question, Mike.
    
    I do not hold to many of the doctrines about the Bible that fundamentalists
    typically hold as absolute.
    
    Richard
    

    The numerous attempts by different fundamentalist groups(all in direct
    contradiction to the Gospels) to predict the exact date of the end time
    from the book of revelations is proof enough to me that no dates can be
    predicted through what is in scripture.  To after the fact prove that
    any exact date was predicted is false prophesy at best.
    
    Patricia

    Patricia:
    
    I agree with your first part but disagree with the second.
    
    Agreed that ANYBODY who tries to predict the exact date will fall flat
    on there collective faces.  One group I'm aware of in my area says the
    end of the world is this Labor Day weekend {and they're not
    fundamentalists.}
    
    I disagree on the prophecies as recorded in the Bible.  Please show me
    where you have proof they are inaccurate.
    
    Ron

    I was referring specifically to .41
    
    Maybe I should ask you which specific prophesies written before the
    fact do you consider accurate?  The prophets are not predicting the
    future but providing  reasons for why hard times are befalling the
    Hebrews.

    Patricia:
    
    I don't believe ANY of the prophecies to be false.
    
    YOU make the claim some, if not ALL, are false.
    
    I asked nicely to give me an example of a false prophecy.  You come
    back in .50 and want me to try to prove you wrong.
    
    I think you're doing a major backpeddaling here!
    
    Ron

    Richard, I was asking you if you still doubted Daniel 9:24-27 after
    exploring it.
    
    Patricia, I agree that it is wrong to be "date setters."  However, I've
    reminded you before about Jesus' parable of the fig tree (Matthew
    24:32-51).  Paul also said in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 that we should watch 
    and be ready, and not be caught "asleep."  As in the fig tree, the Bible 
    has given us enough signs to know when the time is drawing nearer.  
    
    To not watch and not be prepared is as unbiblical as date setting.
    
    Mike

    right.
    
    And in 2 thessalonians, a disciple of Paul, correcting the impact of 1
    Thessalonians, tells us to get busy, back to work, and forget about
    hanging around waiting for the end time.
    
    Patricia

    No,
    
    I'm specifically claiming that the Book of Daniel does not accurately 
    predict the exact date of Jesus' entrance into Jerusalem.
    
    Patricia

>    And in 2 thessalonians, a disciple of Paul, correcting the impact of 1
>    Thessalonians, tells us to get busy, back to work, and forget about
>    hanging around waiting for the end time.
    
    Patricia, where exactly does it say this.  Also, I'd like to see your
    proof that Daniel is wrong.
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    Daniel 9:24-27 gives a bunch of mumble jumble about weeks.  My bible
    Bible comentary links the citation to Jeremiah and explains weeks are
    really years.  If you multiply the week(years) out you do get close to
    500 years. The events and persons described are by no way clear.
    
    Through a whole series of assumptions you have come to the concludion
    that Daniel is talking about Jesus' entry into Jerusalem happening to
    the exact day?  Besides from being mathematically impossible for
    measure to the exact day something that is given in weeks or years
    depending on your interpretation you can use the vague reference to
    build up any kind of mathematical scheme you wish.  It is the same
    logic that those predicting the end time from revelations fail time and
    time again to accurately predict.   It is easier though to link events
    that have already occured.
    
    Patricia

    Sorry Patricia, I don't agree.  The same mathematical model was also
    used in prophecying the day Israel became a nation and the end of the
    6-day war when Israel recaptured Jerusalem.
    
    Mike

    Patricia:
    
    I must admit, I find it awful hard to talk with someone about
    accuracies/inaccuracies of the Bible who deliberately misspells 
    both Mike's and my name.
    
    It's obvious you don't want to have a dialogue, just your way. 

re: Note 950.58 by GUCCI::RWARRENFELTZ "Follow the Money!" 

>    Patricia:
>    
>    I must admit, I find it awful hard to talk with someone about
>    accuracies/inaccuracies of the Bible who deliberately misspells 
>    both Mike's and my name.

I went back a ways in this string and could not find what you're refering to.
Please provide string and entry numbers.  (Are you sure it's deliberate?  I 
make typos all the time, though I try to refer to either a person's node::name 
or signature name if available.)

Thanks,

Jim

 .59


 See 938.189

re: Note 950.60 by Jim "I'm the traveller, He's the Way" 

Thanks, Jim.

Knowing Patricia from her noting here, my guess is that it is a simple typo.
No ulterior motive.

Peace,

Jim

    Ron
    
    I did not deliberately misspell your name. 
    
    I was careless and I apologize for that.  Spelling is not one of my
    strongest points.
    
    Perhaps we should not argue about accuracies/inaccuracies in the Bible.
    It is somewhat of a fruitless discussion.
    
                                      Patricia

    Patricia:
    
    Agreed...
    
    Ron

Speaking of Daniel, the following is my favorite portion of it
(The Song of the Three Holy Children 28-68, King James Version):

Then the three, as out of one mouth, praised, glorified, and
blessed, God in the furnace, saying,

Blessed art thou, O Lord God of our fathers: and to be
praised and exalted above all for ever.

And blessed is thy glorious and holy name: and to be praised
and exalted above all for ever.

Blessed art thou in the temple of thine holy glory: and to be
praised and glorified above all for ever.

Blessed art thou that beholdest the depths, and sittest upon
the cherubims: and to be praised and exalted above all for ever.

Blessed art thou on the glorious throne of thy kingdom: and
to be praised and glorified above all for ever.

Blessed art thou in the firmament of heaven: and above ail to
be praised and glorified for ever.

O all ye works of the Lord, bless ye the Lord : praise and
exalt him above all for ever,

O ye heavens, bless ye the Lord : praise and exalt him above
all for ever.

O ye angels of the Lord, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt
him above all for ever.

O all ye waters that be above the heaven, bless ye the Lord:
praise and exalt him above all for ever.

O all ye powers of the Lord, bless ye the Lord: praise and
exalt him above all for ever.

O ye sun and moon, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him
above all for ever.

O ye stars of heaven, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him
above all for ever.

O every shower and dew, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt
him above all for ever.

O all ye winds, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him above
all for ever,

O ye fire and heat, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him
above all for ever.

O ye winter and summer, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt
him above all for ever.

0 ye dews and storms of snow, bless ye the Lord: praise and
exalt him above all for ever.

O ye nights and days, bless ye the Lord: bless and exalt him
above all for ever.

O ye light and darkness, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt
him above all for ever.

O ye ice and cold, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him
above all for ever.

O ye frost and snow, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him
above all for ever.

O ye lightnings and clouds, bless ye the Lord: praise and
exalt him above all for ever.

O let the earth bless the Lord: praise and exalt him above
all for ever.

O ye mountains and little hills, bless ye the Lord: praise
and exalt him above all for ever.

O all ye things that grow in the earth, bless ye the Lord:
praise and exalt him above all for ever.

O ye mountains, bless ye the Lord: Praise and exalt him above
all for ever.

O ye seas and rivers, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him
above all for ever.

O ye whales, and all that move in the waters, bless ye the
Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever.

O all ye fowls of the air, bless ye the Lord: praise and
exalt him above all for ever.

O all ye beasts and cattle, bless ye the Lord: praise and
exalt him above all for ever.

O ye children of men, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him
above all for ever.

O Israel, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him above all
for ever.

O ye priests of the Lord, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt
him above all for ever.

O ye servants of the Lord, bless ye the Lord: praise and
exalt him above all for ever.

O ye spirits and souls of the righteous, bless ye the Lord:
praise and exalt him above all for ever.

O ye holy and humble men of heart, bless ye the Lord: praise
and exalt him above all for ever.

O Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, bless ye the Lord: praise and
exalt him above all for ever: far he hath delivered us from
hell, and saved us from the hand of death, and delivered us out
of the midst of the furnace and burning flame: even out of the
midst of the fire hath he delivered us.

O give thanks unto the Lord, because he is gracious: for his
mercy endureth for ever.

O all ye that worship the Lord, bless the God of gods, praise
him, and give him thanks: for his mercy endureth for ever.

    Greg, is initiating strife, provoking, and using improper language among 
    the body of Christ equally acceptable?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    I don't know what you're talking about.  I never apologized for calling
    a false prophet/teacher a false prophet/teacher.  Careful or I may
    think you have multiple personalities.
    
    Mike

Cool it folks.

Jim -- co-mod

BTW,

Greg, this is the first I recall seeing you note here.  WELCOME!
Feel free to introduce yourself in topic 3.

Peace,

Jim

    Yes, welcome to CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE, Greg Griffis!
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

re:  Note 950.73 by Greg

Greg,

While I appreciate your position, having seen similar situations in other 
conferences, let us remember that the freedom we have here also demands a 
responsibility to choose our words wisely.  Furthermore, as Christians, we are 
called to love, and as Jesus reminds us, it is easy to love one's friends, even 
the publicans and tax collectors do that.  It is far more difficult, though 
necessary, to love those we do not like or do not agree with us.

Please let us all stop commenting on other conferences and especially on other
*people* here. 

Peace,

Jim  co-mod

p.s.  While I doubt anyone here will be set hidden on theological points, 
Digital guidelines still apply.