Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

	Shelter me now
	from the cold
	she said
	Shelter me now
	while I bleed
	and bear the child
	whose coming is joy.

	Shelter me now
	from the sheep
	and the strangers
	who sleep
	in our stable.

	Shelter me now
	(and she smiled)
	Lift him now
	There is room
	in the manger.


			- Thomas John Carlisle

	Mary is a blessed embarrassment
	to a harassed world

	for she is great in more ways than one
	and we wonder how she managed

	to contain the salvific secret
	seeing all that she had seen and heard.

	How absurd, say all the knowing,
	unknown as we are to such magnificence.

	What guidance, what star, what manger
	can cradle our indifference?

	An offense against our apathy
	this pathetic refugee mother.

	But what other birth will ever be able
	to make us strong and stable with shalom

	home again in the world God made.
	Home with Mary's - and Joseph's - aid.


			- Thomas John Carlisle

    Amen!
    
    Like her Son, she is a sign of contradiction to the worldly ways of
    the proud and self-righteous. She mirrors the greatness of the Lord
    as she loves and serves in hiddenness. 
    
    We should praise God for giving us a perfect Mother in Mary who 
    gives a perfect witness to God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit!
    
    

    
    Awomen to that too!
    
    Cindy

    I admire her that in her song to God in Luke, Chapter 2, she states
    that she rejoices in God HER savior!!!  I truly admire her humility and
    her recongition of the human condition!
    
    -Jack

My soul doth magnify the Lord, * and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
For he hath regarded * the lowliness of his handmaiden.
For behold, from henceforth * all generations shall call me blessed.
For he that is mighty hath magnified me; * and holy is his Name.
And his mercy is on them that fear him * throughout all generations.
He hath showed strength with his arm; * he hath scattered the proud in the
  imagination of their hearts.
He hath put down the mighty from their seat, * and hath exalted the humble
  and meek.
He hath filled the hungry with good things; * and the rich he hath sent empty
  away.
He remembering his mercy hath holpen his servant Israel; * as he promised to
  our forefathers, Abraham and his seed, for ever.

    Romans 3:23
    
    For *all* have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
    
    Mary was a sinner... albeit saved by Grace, and does not hold a
    position more blessed then that of other saints [Christians who have
    passed on] such as Paul.  Neither do I believe that I am to pray to
    them and ask for their prayers to God.
    
    Jesus is the mediator between God and man...our prayers are
    intercessory through Christ and Christ alone.
    
    Praise be to Jesus!  All Glory forever and ever, Amen.
    
    

    "JESUS IS THE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN"
    
    If Jesus is the mediator, does that mean Jesus and God are separate
    Individuals?  If Jesus and God are one, then why does God need a
    mediator to himself?
    
    Patricia

I believe heaven does have different level of rewards.

I also believe Mary was more "blessed" than the average
Joe Schmoe follower of Jesus.  Just look at what God
did for her!  What a privilege!

God does not hand out all blessings equally, just as he
does not hand out all talents equally.  See Romans 9
for more information (as was recently referenced in this
notesfile).

Mary is *blessed*.

  >If Jesus is the mediator, does that mean Jesus and God are separate
  >Individuals?  

Would you believe seperate "persons"?

  >If Jesus and God are one, then why does God need a mediator
  >to himself?

It is man that needs a mediator to God, not God needing a
mediator to God.  Does this make it clearer?

Collis

    
    My Bible says that God is no respecter of persons. 
    
    

  >My Bible says that God is no respecter of persons. 
   
Nancy,

  While this is true, I think your Bible says a lot more
than that - much of which is relevant in this topic.  Yes,
I know that some idolotry of Mary exists in the world.  But
that doesn't mean that we should throw Mary out.  She is
indeed a woman specially blessed by God.  How many people
prominent people in the Bible can you name that do not have 
a significant sin associated out with them?  There are
mighty few.  Daniel and crew.  Mary.  I'm sure there's a
few more, but not many.  That's *special*.

Collis

    I agree that the Bible says all the nations of the world will call her
    blessed.  
    
    There are many women in the Bible I have a deep admiration for.  Ruth,
    Esther, Priscilla, the wives of the patriarchs (Sarah, Rachael, and 
    Rebecca I believe), and again I admire Mary for her faith exemplified 
    in Luke ch.2.  She recognized her sinful position in comparison to 
    God's Holy position.  I consider her fortunate to be the chosen vessel
    of God's will.
    
    -Jack

    Collis,
    
    In the way that you have presented Mary, I will agree.  However, I draw
    the line at worshipping Mary.  Christ is to be worshipped.

    Nancy .15,
    
    	*NOBODY* is advocating the worship of Mary.  Why even suggest
    such a thing?
    
    	.....Never mind.  I'm pretty sure I already know from whence the
    obtuse notion comes.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

Angelus ad virginem subintras in conclave,	The angel came to the Virgin,
Virginus formidinem demulcens, inquit, Ave!	entered her chamber and,
Ave, regina virginum;				dispelling her fear, said:
Coeli terraeque Dominum				Hail, Queen of virgins; thou
Concipies et paries intacta salutem hominum	shalt conceive the Lord of
Tu porta coeli facta, medela criminum.		heaven and earth and, untouched,
						shalt bring forth salvation for
						mankind, thou, gate of heaven,
						healer of sinners.

Quomodo conciperem quae virum non cognovi?	How shall I conceive, as I know
Qualiter infringerum quod firma mente vovi?	not a man?  How shall I break
Spiritus Sancti gratia,				the strong bonds of my vow?
Perficiet haec omnia;				The grace of the Holy Spirit
Ne timeas, sed gaudeas, secura quod castimonia	shall accomplish it.  Fear not,
Menebit in te pura Dei potentia.		but rejoice, for by the power
						of God thy chastity and purity
						shall endure.

Ad haec virgo nobilis respondens inquit ei:	The noble Virgin answered the
Ancilla sum humilis omnipotentis Dei.		angel, saying: I am Almighty
Tibi coelesti nuntio,				God's humble handmaiden; to
Tanti secreti conscio,				thee, heavenly messenger,
Consentiens, et cupiens videre factum quod audio;  bringer of great and secret
Parata sum parere, Dei consilio.		tidings, I give my consent and,
						longing to see that of which
						thou tellest, am prepared to
						follow God's will.

Eia mater Domini, quae pacem redidisti		Hail, thou Mother of our Lord,
Angelis et homini, cum Christum genuisti;	who has restored peace to the
Tuum exora filium				angels and to mankind by giving
Ut se nobis propitium				birth to Christ: entreat thy
Exhibeat, et deleat peccata: Praestans auxilium Son to show us favour and
Vita frui beata post hoc exilium.		forgive our sins, and to
						vouchsafe that we come into
						life abundant upon departing
						this vale of exile.

Popular devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is an affirmation of the
inseparable union between our Lord's true humanity and his full divinity.
The Church teaches that he who was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and the
Virgin Mary is a union of divine and human natures in one divine Person.
That being the case, it is appropriate to call His Mother "Theotokos"
(accurately rendered as "Birth-Giver of God," but more usually translated
as "Mother of God").  Indeed, the Nestorian controversy during the fifth
century was ignited by the condemnation by the heretical Bishop of
Constantinople of the use of the term "Theotokos."  Every orthodox
doctrine about Mary is Christological, continuing in the pattern of the
Wedding Feast at Cana, where she says to the servants, "Whatsoever he
saith unto you, do it."  Because of her faith in the works of God, all
generations have indeed "called her Blessed."  Mary is the model of
humanity redeemed by Christ, and the principal type of the Church.

The councils of the undivided Church encourage the faithful to venerate
and emulate the saints of the Christian family, and this is supremely
true of the Blessed Virgin Mary.  Adoration, however, is due only to the
Holy Trinity and devotion to the saints is supplementary to the worship
of the one, true, living God.  It is an expression of the unity of the
whole family of God in Heaven and on earth.  At the heart of all Marian
devotion is the simple request for the prayers of our Mother in Christ
-- one who is held by the common tradition of the Church to be "higher
than the Cherubim, more glorious than the Seraphim," yet still a creature,
and subordinate to God the creator.

					-- The Anglican Service Book

One of my favorite hymns is _Gabriel's Message_.  
It was our offertory anthem yesterday.  
(#265 in the Episcopal hymnal .-)

The musician Sting has a wonderful rendition of it, with a very nice video.

Our choir director was waiting in a Bar & Grill for her washing to finish at a 
laundrymat and she noticed that they has a jukebox that was loaded with 
compact disks.  One of them (I think the title is "A Very Special Christmas") 
is a collection of modern rock singers performing various traditional 
Christmas carols.  She selected _Gabriel's Message_ by Sting, and many heads 
turned in the establishment.  People wondering that something like that would 
be loaded in a jukebox along with "Achey Breaky Heart" and songs by Guns & 
Roses.

The angel Gabriel from heaven came
his wings as drifted snow, his eyes as flame
"All hail," said he, "thou lowly maiden Mary,
most highly favored lady," Gloria!

"For know a blessed Mother thou shalt be,
all generations laud and honor thee,
thy Son shall be Emmanuel, by seers foretold,
most highly favored lady," Gloria!

Then gentle Mary meekly bowed her head,
"To me be as it pleaseth God," she said,
"my soul shall laud and magnify his holy name."
Most highly favored lady, Gloria!

Of her, Emmanuel, the Christ, was born
in Bethlehem, all on a Christmas morn,
and Christian folk throughout the world ever say--
"Most highly favored lady," Gloria!


words:  Basque carol, para. Sabine Baring-Gould (1834-1924)
music:  _Gabriel's Message_, Basque carol; harm. Edgar Pettman (1865-1943)

(Another dear friend told me that she learned an alternative to the last line 
in England: "Most highly flavored lady, Gloria!"  It's now difficult to keep 
it straight now.  .-)     ^

Jim

Gracious Mother of our Redeemer, for ever abiding Heaven's gateway,
and star of ocean, O succor the people, who, though falling, strive
to rise again.  Thou Maiden who barest thy holy Creator, to the
wonder of all nature; ever Virgin, after, as before thou receivedst
that Ave from the mouth of Gabriel; have compassion on us sinners.

After Childbearing, O Virgin, thou didst remain inviolate.
Intercede for us, O Mother of God.

O God, who by the fruitful virginity of Blessed Mary hast bestowed
upon mankind the reward of eternal salvation: Grant, we beseech thee,
that we may know the help of her intercession through whom we have
been accounted worthy to receive the Author of our life, Jesus Christ
thy Son our Lord.  Amen.

re Note 787.20 by COVERT::COVERT:

> After Childbearing, O Virgin, thou didst remain inviolate.
> Intercede for us, O Mother of God.
  
        What does "inviolate" mean here?

        Bob

RE.21

	From the context it sounds as if the author is saying that Mary had no
physical relationship with Joseph her husband and therefore did not produce any
more children.

	I don't believe this is scripturally accurate, but then no one asked for
my opinion either!

ace

re Note 787.22 by LEDS::LOPEZ:

> RE.21
> 
> 	From the context it sounds as if the author is saying that Mary had no
> physical relationship with Joseph her husband and therefore did not produce any
> more children.
  
        But in what weird sense would (consenting) physical relations
        between husband and wife be considered a violation of either?

        Bob

re.22

>        But in what weird sense would (consenting) physical relations
>        between husband and wife be considered a violation of either?


	Well you know Bob, I've wondered about this several times myself. I
think the answer will eventually lead back into a discussion about the doctrine
"the perpetual virginity of Mary". Perhaps John can clarify this.

ace

[Bb]	: CCC C FFFF FFFF aaa F GGGG GGGG	   	(Daily, Daily)
          bbb d cccccc aa bb GG FFFFFFFF :
	  aaa b cccc aaaa ccc c bbbb GGGG
	  bbb b aaaa FFFF aaa a GGGGGGGG
	  CCCC FFFF FFFF; GGGG aaaa aaaa; bbb d cccccc aa, bb GG FFFFFFFF!
	  

Ye who own the faith of Jesus,          Blessed were the chosen people
Sing the wonders that were done         Out of whom the Lord did come;
When the love of God the Father         Blessed was the land of promise
O'er our sin the victory won,           Fashioned for his earthly home;
When he made the Virgin Mary            But more blessed far the Mother,
Mother of his only Son.                 She who bare him in her womb.

		Hail Mary; Hail Mary; Hail Mary, full of grace!

For the King of men and angels		Thus prepared, and thus exalted,
Chose her out of all he made,		Lowly still, and still unknown,
And in robes of grace and glory		Mary waited till the fullness
Her humility arrayed;			Of her destiny was shown,
With the radiant sun he clothed her,	Till the Maid became God's Mother,
At her feet the moon he laid.		And her nursing arms his throne.

		Hail Mary; Hail Mary; Hail Mary, full of grace!

Wherefore let all faithful people	"Magnify, my soul, God's greatness;
Tell the honour of her name;		In my Saviour I rejoice;
Let the Church in her foreshadowed,	All the ages call me blessed,
Part in her thanksgiving claim;		In his praise I lift my voice;
What Christ's mother sang in gladness	He has cast down all the mighty,
Let Christ's people sing the same.	and the lowly are his choice."

		Hail Mary; Hail Mary; Hail Mary, full of grace!

Let us weave our supplications,		May the Mother's intercessions
She with us and we with her,		On our homes a blessing win,
For th'advancement of the faithful,	That the children all be prospered,
For each faithful worshipper,		Strong and fair and pure within,
For the doubting, for the sinful,	Following our Lord's own footsteps,
For each heedless wanderer.		Firm in faith and free from sin.

		Hail Mary; Hail Mary; Hail Mary, full of grace!

For the sick and for the aged,		Praise, O Mary, praise the Father,
For our dear ones far away,		Praise thy Saviour and thy Son,
For the hearts that mourn in secret,	Praise the everlasting Spirit,
All who need our prayers today,		Who hath made thee ark and throne;
For the faithful gone before us,	O'er all creatures high exalted,
May the holy Virgin pray.		Lowly praise the Three in One.

		Hail Mary; Hail Mary; Hail Mary, full of grace!

Mary did you know
That your baby boy
Would one day walk on water
Mary did you know
That your baby boy
Would save our sons and daughters
Did you know
That your baby boy
Has come to make you new
This child that you delivered
Will soon deliver you

Mary did you know
That your baby boy
Will give sight to a blind man
Mary did you know
That your baby boy
Would calm a storm with His hand
Did you know
That your baby boy
Has walked where angels trod
And when you kiss your little baby
You've kissed the face of God
Oh Mary did you know

Mary did you know
The blind will see
The deaf will hear
The dead will ive again
The lame will leap
The dumb will speak
The praises of the Lamb

Mary did you know
That your baby boy
Is Lord of all creation
Mary did you know
That your baby boy
Will one day rule the nations
Did you know
That your baby boy
Was Heaven's perfect Lamb
And the sleeping child you're holding
Is the great I Am
Oh Mary

I have travelled many moonless nights
cold and weary, with a babe inside
and I wonder what I've done
Holy Father you have come
and chosen me now
to carry your son
    
I am waiting in a silent prayer
I am frightened by the load I bear
in a world as cold as stone
must I walk this path alone
be with me now
be with me now
    
Breath of Heaven, hold me together
be forever near me, Breath of Heaven
Breath of Heaven, lighten my darkness
pour over me your holiness, for you are holy
Breath of Heaven
    
Do you wonder as you watch my face
if a wise one should of had my place
but I offer all I am
for the mercy of your plan
help me be strong
help me be
help me
    
Breath of Heaven, hold me together
be forever near me, Breath of Heaven
Breath of Heaven, lighten my darkness
pour over me your holiness, for you are holy
Breath of Heaven

A sermon preached in Westminster Abbey for the Society of Our Lady of Pew
at their Annual Eucharist July 1994 by the Rev'd Canon Hugh Wybrew of
historic St. Mary Magdalene's Church, Oxford, England.

A few weeks ago I was passing Westminster Abbey with a couple of minutes
to spare.  I came in, and found myself in the presence of Christ and his
Mother, two presences, confronting all who come in through the West Door:
Christ the Almighty and the Mother of God, present in the two magnificent
icons recently placed on the second pair of pillars in the nave.

The icon of the Mother of God, like all icons, is a theological image.  It
is essentially an image of the Incarnation, of the Word of God who became
human with Mary as his Mother.  The title Mother of God was given to Mary
by the Third Ecumenical Council meeting at Ephesus in 431, and it was meant
as a defence of the doctrine of the Incarnation: that basic Christian
belief that in Jesus it was none other than God who came to share our human
life, to heal it from the inside, and to reconcile us to himself.  Mary's
title is first of all an affirmation about who Jesus Christ is, and only
then an affirmation about Mary.

But Mary is thoroughly used to taking second place after her Son.  The
Gospel we have just heard, Luke 11:27-28, is one of several passages in the
Gospels in which Jesus almost seems to be putting Mary, and sometimes the
rest of his family, in their place.  "Blessed is the womb that bore you
and the breasts that you sucked!"  But he said, "Blessed rather are those
who hear the word of God and keep it!"  The Revised Standard Version is
milder than the translation we have just heard: "No, blessed are those..."
But it is difficult to avoid altogether some sense of contrast, which is
stronger in another episode, in Mark 3:31-35, when his mother and brothers
wanted to see Jesus, cut off from them by the crowds.  When told they were
looking for him, Jesus said, "Who are my mother and brothers?"  And looking
around on those who sat about him, he said, "Here are my mother and my
brothers!  Whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and
mother."  The natural relationship is of value only if it serves the
spiritual: Mary, like anyone else, is blessed, not just by being the
mother of Jesus, but only if she hears and responds to the word of God.

Luke, of course, in his infancy narrative makes it clear that she was the
mother of Jesus precisely because she did hear the word of God, the call of
God, and did respond to it.  That is why all generations are to call her
blessed.  Yet the Gospels taken as a whole make it clear that her response
to that word grew and developed, as she came to understand its significance
more fully.  The Letter to the Hebrews says of Jesus himself that "he
learned obedience through what he suffered" (Hebrews 5:8).  It is not
surprising then if his mother too discovered as she went on, or rather, as
Jesus went on his way to the Cross, what the "yes" to God really involved.
Luke, for example, shows her puzzled and hurt by Jesus' behaviour when he
was a young adolescent, and went off to the Temple without telling his
parents.  She no doubt shared in the disciples' shocked reaction when
Jesus spoke of his coming death; and we can only imagine her feeling
graphically expressed in the Orthodox texts for Good Friday -- when,
according to John, she stood by the cross.  Mary, like her Son, learned
obedience through what she suffered: the predicted sword pierced her soul,
too.  She came painfully to an ever fuller grasp of what she had taken on
when she heard the word of God and decided to keep it.

The icon depicts Mary at the end of that process of spiritual growth.  It
shows her as what she finally became, beyond all her uncertainties and
questionings, beyond the death of her Son, beyond his victory over sin and
death, when "the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts
on immortality." (1 Cor 15:54).  That sharing in his risen life came beyond
her own death, her own physical death, and her spiritual death to self.
For Mary, as for her Son, the path to glory passed through suffering and
death.

In all that, of course, Mary points us to our own and to the Church's
vocation.  The icon of Mary is not only an image of the Incarnation: it
is also an image of the Church.  In early Christian and Orthodox tradition
Mary is never detached from the Church of which she is the figure.  Like
her, the Church is called to be the Ark in which Christ lives; like her the
Church is called, as Paul says, to be the temple of God, the dwelling place
of God in the Spirit (1 Cor 3:16-17).  Like her the Church is called to
bring Christ into the world, to embody in its life and mission the love of
the God who was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself.  That is true
of the Church and of each Christian.  Like her, the Church, each one of us,
has said "yes" to that vocation.  But in each generation Christians have to
grow into their response to the word of God.  We have to live and work
through questionings and partial understandings of Christ's mission and
ours.  We have to learn obedience to the word of God we have in principle
heard, and that learning can be a demanding, even painful process.  We have
to discover for and in ourselves that there is no new life without death to
the old, sinful self; and that the resurrection is a gift of God, a new
creation, to be hoped for, longed for, prayed for, and also worked for.

The icon depicts both our vocation as we have it, and the goal of our
vocation, as we do not yet have it.  But Mary is the promise that the goal
can be reached.  She was the first to begin to share in the renewed,
recreated humanity born out of the death and resurrection of Christ.  She
was the first after Jesus to experience the victory over sin and death won
by her Son.  We call her blessed.  With her we call her Son still more
blessed.  For his is the Word of God become human in her, who suffered,
died, and was raised for her and our healing and salvation.

================================================================================
Note 1329.148                        Gandhi                           148 of 152
ALFSS1::BENSONA "Eternal Weltanschauung"             15 lines   6-MAR-1997 12:54
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>        I should find it hard to believe in the literal
>        meaning of the verses relating to the Immaculate Conception of
>        Jesus.  

>>        I should, too, since the phrase "Immaculate Conception"
>>        refers to the state of Mary's soul from conception, not to
>>        Jesus at all.

>>        Bob
    
    And so should I since the Immaculate Conception is not discovered
    through a literal reading (and some would even say from a reasonable
    inferrence) of passages concerning Mary.
    
    jeff