Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

>Healthy religion tells you there are not ghosts.

The above sentence is a lie.  A lie directly from the Great Deceiver himself.

One of the few things I will never forget from my seventh grade Sacred Studies
class at St. Stephen's Episcopal Preparatory School for Boys was:

	The minute you stand up and say "There is no devil" --
	That's when he's got you.

It is not a medallion that will save you from the power of the Prince of
Darkness -- it is faith in Jesus Christ.  The message of love in the Gospel
is that Jesus came to save people from sin, from following the angel who
opposes God.

/john

    Thanks for posting that article, Patricia.  It was very thoughtful and
    moving.

    I have been thinking about this, and  I see at least a couple of
    aspects of religious addiction coming.  One, as Father Booth
    highlighted so well, involves viewing one's faith as panacea.  The hope
    is that it will make one's journey through life somehow painless.  Of
    course, religion does no such thing--all people of faith suffer through
    trials and pains--but religion can be perceived as an escape from life
    as much as drugs, alcohol, gambling.  Rather than helping us face the
    world, which I think is the real benefit of religion, religion is for
    some people a way of hiding from it.  There is a lot of magical
    thinking involved with this--as suggested by the story of the child at
    the end of that article.

    The other aspect that I see is the consuming nature of religious
    addiction.  There can be a lack of healthy balance in one's view of
    life.  An addiction becomes the overriding reason for one's
    existence--getting that fix is all that matters.  The broad range of
    beautiful experiences that constitute life are ignored.  Recreational
    pursuits, the enjoyment of nature, art, music--these can become of no
    interest.  Life is in a sense cut short because there the element of
    healthy balance is missing.  

    -- Mike

I think the article misses the mark.

I certainly agree that religious addiction exists.  However,
the problem does not lie in a devotion to God (a distinction
that the article does not clearly bring out).  Devoting
oneself to God and to follow his spirit does not become
an addiction which hides pain and lives in a fantasy world;
rather it is an acknowledgment of truth and truly allows one
to live free and unencumbered.

It appears that the author either has not experienced this
or does not wish to write about this.

Collis

    As I read the article, the words "Secular Humanism" kept ringing in my
    ears for some reason.  I thought it was also paumpous for the author to
    draw the conclusion that fundementalists are lying when they say the
    Bible is the inerrant word of God.  
    
    He should speak for himself!
    
    Rgds,
    
    Jack
      

    Thanks for posting the article Patricia.
    
    I'll have to say I have known people in my life that seem to have what
    Booth terms a religion addiction.   Like some recovering alcoholics,
    they have to get to the "meeting" or they will fall off the wagon. I've
    also found that these people do not have a personal relationship with
    God and that they are still trying of their own might to be a "good
    Christian."  I think that it's true that someone with a lifestyle of
    addiction and abuse, such as substance abuse, can often trade that for
    something else.  My boyfriend is a recovered alcohol/ substance abuser
    and as he went through the 12-steps, he chose God as his higher power. 
    Nothing else made sense to him.   But when he finally realized that he
    needed a personal relationship through Jesus Christ everything changed. 
    The desire for drugs and alcohol was taken away. He no longer put his
    faith in the meetings but in God.  He recently revisited a meeting and
    found plenty of people who indeed have been clean and sober for iss a
    meeting or they'd be drinking again.  They've never recovered in
    actuality, they've just become addicted to something else...in their
    case the meetings, but I'm sure there are a multitude of other things
    people trade this addiction/abuse for...and one could be church.
    However, I think it's dangerous to confuse religion and/or church
    with Christianity.  I agree with Booth that religion is often man-made,
    but a personal relationship with Christ is God-given.  As for
    spirituality, it is often not of God.  There is more than God's Spirit
    in this world.  Religion and Christiannity are not the same.
    Spirituality and Christianity are not the same.  I don't see where the
    author makes any such distinction.
    
    I'm also concerned with Booth's assumption that "most" people who come
    to Jesus have low self-esteem, low self-worth, their lonely and
    ashamed. It's like he's saying:  they couldn't possibly sink any
    lower...so they get sucked in and addicted to Jesus (or substitute
    religion as it seems to imply that Jesus is just another religion.) 
    People come to Jesus for all kinds of reasons.  Many are hurting, but
    just because they become a Christian doesn't mean they are addicted to
    religion. I know for me it was coming to an understanding that God
    cared about everything I do.  That was awesome.  It's completely
    changed my life. I'm thankful because of that relationship that I never
    got messed up in a lot of behaviors that cause low self-esteems and
    self-worth, lonliness, and shame.
    
    Lastly, in response to Booth's article in general, I think there's a
    danger with the teachings of Leo Booth.
    
    Jill

re: .0  	"When God Becomes A Drug" By Father Leo Booth.

I, too, think Father Booth's perspective is dangerous. He refutes many 
fundamentals of Christianity and seems to have no understanding of the 
mighty power of the Lord to deliver sinners from their sins. Because of this,
he seems to deny that there even is such a thing as sin. He does not affirm
the gospel of Jesus Christ who taught the need for repentance, forgiveness,
and conversion. Rather, he puts forth a false gospel which says that because
God is love, everything that we do is acceptable to Him and there is no need
for us to struggle with sin. 

> I am not saying that the Bible is not inspired.  I believe that it is very 
> inspirational.  But I think if you take it as a literal textbook, a 
> how-to-book for every aspect of your life, that's an abuse of the Bible.

He does not believe the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit; the witness of 
the Spirit to Jesus Christ in Scripture is not apparent to him, therefore, 
whatever man thinks is good is on equal par with the words of Christ.  Father
Booth exercises this 'freedom' by choosing to deny whatever in scripture does
not appeal to him or whatever he does not 'get' and in its place, he substitutes
his own understandings and desires which contradicts scripture at every turn.

> I think there's a danger with the teaching of original sin, because it keeps 
> emphasizing our weaknesses, our unworthiness, the idea that we are born bad.  
> And if you have an unbalanced emphasis upon our badness, then I believe you 
> create people of low self-esteem and low self-worth.

This is true only for those people who have not received the Good News of 
Christ which includes the availability of Christ's saving and transforming
grace in our lives so as to be converted from sin. 

Through this lack of acceptance of the reality of sin, Fr. Booth would have a 
hard time accepting that Jesus Christ died for our sins and through His
Ressurrection shows us his authority over sin and death. It is through this
power, in the Name of Jesus, the Christian can overcome sin, rather than
justify it in their lives.

Father Booth is correct that we should think of Jesus as being of loving 
qualities and not to be afraid of Him. It is precisely because Jesus is 
merciful and available that we, recognizing our sinfulness, can repentently
come to Him, ask for forgiveness, and pray for the saving grace to rise
again to "go and sin no more"; this is the grace of conversion, but in order
to receive it we must be willing to admit that our behavior is sinful.

> Religious addiction is progressive.  Most people who are religiously addicted 
> have already been religiously abused.  They already have low self-esteem, low 
> self-worth.  Many of them don't like themselves.  Many have been told by 
> their parents not to like themselves.  And then somebody says, "There's a 
> God up in heaven who loves you.  Jesus is just waiting to embrace you."  
> Originally people out ot their lonliness and shame start to move toward Jesus.

> What happens then is they start doing more things that progress into 
> addiction.  They start reading the Bible, then they start quoting the Bible, 
> then they start emphasizing texts that demonstrate their exclusivity.  "If 
> you don't believe what we believe then I'm afraid you're going to hell 
> because the Bible says so.  Some of them get into ritual, black and white 
> thinking, excessive judgmentalism.

The "addicted" person he cites has learned that God does indeed call certain 
behaviors sins and does indeed say that those who embrace sins will not 
inherit the kingdom. The "addict" has probably also found God's grace to be 
converted themselves and they are finding, slowly perhaps, the love of God. 
The "addict" has more Truth in this than Father Booth, who so far has denied
sin, the authority of scripture, the transforming power of Jesus Christ, and
(implied) our Salvation through Jesus Christ.

If the "addicted" person errs, it is in not yet learning how to demonstrate
love for the sinner while hating the sin. It can indeed be judgemental which
is not the role a Christian is to play. It is right to stand with Jesus in
calling sin sin. It is not up to us as Christians to condemn. It is an error 
of zeal and of immaturity in Christian witness.

Priests and Pastors are supposed to care for the spiritual growth of their
flocks. The above behavior is usually the first stage of a new Christian's
attempts at witnessing. Father Booth would 'temper' such behavior by stifling 
the truth of sin and of the Christian's responsibility to conversion.

There are different means of reaching different people and of witnessing to
Christ. The means are different depending upon where the person is in relation-
ship to God. A lot of 'wrong applications' have been used due to the lack of
understanding, leadership, and counsel by our priests and pastors. It is the
failing of people like Father Booth to shepherd their flocks which has 
perpetuated the abuses.

> It's ludicrous, for example , to expect St Paul to understand alcoholism.  
> So when he says all the drunkards are going to hell, that's because he had 
> no understanding of alcoholism, any more than he had an understanding of 
> homsexuality.  

Does God call alchololism and homosexuality GOOD?  Not according to scripture.
Not only that, neither has mankind throughout the millenium.

St. Paul understands a few things that Fr. Booth does not. 1) these things
ARE sins, 2) Jesus Christ is Lord and has all power and authority in heaven 
and earth to triumph over sin, any sin, 3) because of this, no sin is 
justified, 4) it is a Christian's duty to be transformed and we can do this
in Christ, 5) every person has access to the grace of conversion if one
is repentant and persists in the struggle. 

Alchoholism is NOT more powerful than Jesus Christ!! 

> Two thousand years ago, St. Paul also thought the world was flat.  

Oh yeah?  Where does St. Paul state this in his writings?

> He thought slaves should be obedient to their masters.  To follow exactly 
what St Paul said would be a menu for suicide.

Then it is suicide to follow Jesus who also told each one to be obedient to
their masters, even slaves. Here again, Fr. Booth demonstrates that he does
not understand the concepts of obedience, prayer, and the power of the Lord
to transform situations and life. He is not alone in this by any means, but
this does not mean he is right. 

I'm afraid that Father Booth is not teaching or affirming the Gospel; he is
preaching a different Gospel which is in error and should be rejected. 

For those of us who have found the power of Jesus Christ in our lives, we
attest that Scripture is true and inspired of God and that so is the 
teachings of our Church. Father Booth preaches a secular god with no power
and sees religion as being a dead weight. I and others say that Jesus
Christ is alive and has power over life, death, and sin and that we have
access to Him; our religion is not dead by alive and life-giving. If you
believe as Father Booth does, then I encourage you to look further because
you're missing the Way, Truth, and Life.

Peace of Jesus

Mary

    You will also find that people with his philosophy are actually the
    insecure and abused in the world.  They are trying to justify to
    themselves their own inadequacies by making sin seem so trivial.
    Not the case with everybody but with some!
    
    Jack

I was curious about Father Booth's credentials, so I tried to look him up
in the Episcopal Clerical Directory, which is only published every two
years.  I wanted to know where he attended seminary, and the where/when/who
of his ordination.

I couldn't find him.

/john

    Father Leo Booth, A native of England, was educated at King's College
    and St Augustine's Canterbury.
    
    He immigrating to the U.S in 1981.  Besides Breaking the Chains, Father
    Leo's other works include, Spirituality and Recovery, Meditations for
    Compulsive People, and Say Yes to Life.  Booth currently serves as
    vicar of St. George's Episcopal Church in Hawthorne, California.
    
    

    
    RE: .6
    
    Thanks Mary.  That was a delight to read.  Extremely thorough.
    Well stated.  You seem to have a knack for apologetics.
    
    Jill

Re   <<< Note 582.7 by CSTEAM::MARTIN >>>

>    You will also find that people with his philosophy are actually the
>    insecure and abused in the world.  They are trying to justify to
>    themselves their own inadequacies by making sin seem so trivial.
>    Not the case with everybody but with some!
>    
>    Jack

Just curious, do you have any studies to back this up?  You seem to be painting
with a broad brush.

/Mike

    Mike:
    
    Actually I do not have any studies to back this up per sae and I openly
    admit this.  I can tell you from personal experience however that on
    many many occasions the most insecure people in the world can be the
    most domineering (no not my wife!!)  And alot of times they do this to
    cover their own inadequacies.  In other words, if one comes from this
    type of background, they seem to make their misery reality and attempt
    to make everybody else miserable so that they can feel like misery is
    reality for everybody.  Is this making sense?  Again I'm just speaking
    from what I've seen in personal relationships, I.E. friends, family,
    etc.
    
    In writings of this nature, one may find they aren't coming to grips
    with their own sin nature, so to appease themselves, they look at life
    through rose colored glasses and state that everybody is Okay and that
    this talk about sin will lead to a poor self image.  
    
    If anybody can admit their condition and faults, in my eyes they have a
    good self image and they are the role models I would like to mold
    myself after, (discipleship).
    
    Rgds.,
    
    Jack

Re  <<< Note 582.12 by CSTEAM::MARTIN >>>

>    In writings of this nature, one may find they aren't coming to grips
>    with their own sin nature, so to appease themselves, they look at life
>    through rose colored glasses and state that everybody is Okay and that
>    this talk about sin will lead to a poor self image.  
    
>    If anybody can admit their condition and faults, in my eyes they have a
>    good self image and they are the role models I would like to mold
>    myself after, (discipleship).
    
How about if that person is not a christian.  They do exist, you know.  Of 
course, they wouldn't have your ideas on the sin nature and all that, but
they would be able to regard themselves with varying degrees of humility.

/Mike

>How about if that person is not a christian.  They do exist, you know.  Of 
>course, they wouldn't have your ideas on the sin nature and all that, but
>they would be able to regard themselves with varying degrees of humility.

But is Fr. Booth's job not to set forth the Christian and Episcopal teaching
on our propensity to make wrong choices?  May he, as a priest, deny this?

Is he not supposed to teach people to deal with these wrong choices in
penitence to the Lord, as in the Book of Common Prayer, p.41 and p.331,
or in very serious cases, through Sacramental Reconciliation (pp.447-452)?

Daily Office Confession of Sin		Holy Eucharist Confession of Sin

Almighty and most merciful Father	Almighty God, Father of our Lord
we have erred and strayed from thy	Jesus Christ, maker of all things,
ways like lost sheep, we have		judge of all men:  We acknowledge
followed too much the devices and	and bewail our manifold sins and
desires of our own hearts, we have	wickedness, which we from time to
offended against thy holy laws, we	time most grievously have committed,
have left undone those things which	by thought, word, and deed, against
we ought to have done, and we have	thy divine Majesty, provoking most
done those things which we ought not	justly thy wrath and indignation
to have done.  But thou, O Lord, have	against us.  We do earnestly repent,
mercy upon us, spare thou those who	and are heartily sorry for these our
confess their faults, restore thou	misdoings; the remembrance of them is
those who are penitent, according to	grievous unto us, the burden of them
thy promises declared unto mankind,	is intolerable.  Have mercy upon us,
in Christ Jesus our Lord; and grant,	have mercy upon us, most merciful
O most merciful Father, for his sake,	Father; for thy Son our Lord Jesus
that we may hereafter live a godly,	Christ's sake, forgive us all that is
righteous, and sober life, to the	past, and grant that we may ever
glory of thy holy Name.  Amen.		hereafter serve and please thee in
					newness of life, to the honor and
/john					glory of thy Name; through Jesus
					Christ our Lord.  Amen.

Re -.1

No argument with you, although I will say that Episcopal clergy are given a
wide latitude regarding scriptural interpretation.  During my eight years as
an Episcopalian, I met a few priests who would be considered somewhat 
bizarre in their teachings.  My argument was with the attempt to portray
all people who disagree with the conventional christian view of sin as
self-deluded, maladjusted fools.  By and large, they aren't.

/Mike

    Re: .15
    
    >>self-deluded, maladjusted fools.
    
    Naaahh, just people who really thought there was going to be a middle
    class tax cut.

Re  -.1

>    Naaahh, just people who really thought there was going to be a middle
>    class tax cut.


I was wandering why so many Republicans voted for Clinton.

/Mike

    Mike:
    
    Let me give you a small case scenerio of what happened!
    
    Me: Tell me Joe, who are you voting for this election?
    
    Joe: Well, I voted for Bush last time but I'll never do that again. 
    This time its Bill Clinton.
    
    Me: That's fine Joe, but why?
    
    Joe: Well..ahh..we need change in this country and Clinton is the man
    to do it.
    
    Me: Okay..What changes is he going to make that will better the
    country?
    
    Joe: Ahh..Ummm...Well...
    
    Me: Let me make this simple for you Joe...Give me one good reason why I
    should vote for Clinton.
    
    Joe: Because George Bush is a dirty..rotten...lying...
    
    Me: Joe, you still haven't answered my question..give me one good
    reason why I should vote for Clinton.  Just One.  Thats all I ask!
    
    Joe: Well..Clinton is an agent of change!  You just wait and
    see...thats all!!
    
    To keep on the topic of this string, people use politicians as a drug
    also; not only God.  They get high on empty rhetoric and unfortunately,
    are in for a big let down the next day/week/month.  
    
    

here in switzerland, the per capita rate of substance addiction to hard drugs
is the highest in europe. the problem has become so large, that there are now
two popular motions underway on how to tackle it. one calls for the complete
legalisation of drugs, the other for an even more stringent prohibition.

in an effort to better understand the problem of addiction, i have for three
years 'walked-alongside' and (to some extent) 'coached' individuals which were 
themselves chemically addicted to hard drugs.


re .0

> Religious addiction is progressive.  Most people who are religiously addicted 
> have already been religiously abused.  They already have low self-esteem, low 
> self-worth.  Many of them don't like themselves.  Many have been told by their
> parents not to like themselves.  And then somebody says, "There's a God up in 
> heaven who loves you.  Jesus is just waiting to embrace you."  Originally 
> people out ot their lonliness and shame start to move toward Jesus.


the article is very enlightening, as it provides an explanation to me why 
substance addiction is so often successfully replaced with religious addiction.

from own experience (from struggling to get away from my nicotine addiction), 
i have always maintained that a harmful addiction is best replaced with a less 
harmful addiction. it is a lot tougher living without addiction, living like a 
saint.

the current prohibition of hard drugs generates a lot of misery for those 
addicted to the illegal drugs. it also makes for misery to victims of drug 
related crime and only benefits organised crime. 
in this light, whilst prohibition is the policy of choice, replacing substance 
addiction with religious addiction is not such a bad thing. though religious 
addiction need and must not be the only way out of substance addiction, though,
for the time being, it often looks like it is the only choice.


andreas.