Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Help me with an area that I am totally ignorant in ....

    What kind of money does a pastor make?  Say .. for very small churches,
    medium .. and larger churches.

    I've often wondered what kind of money Dr. Charles L. Allen made as
    pastor of the First Methodist Church of Houston .. a very very large
    congregation.

    Bubba

    I think some small neighboring UU congregations share ministers. 
    Apparently they stagger the starting times for their starting services
    so that the minister can participate in both services.
    
    -- Mike

    And others hire part time ministers or student ministers.  My church
    has about 110 members and making the budget is tight.  The ministers
    salary and building expenses are the two biggest budget items.
    
    Some UU fellowships choose not to hire a professional minister in order
    to cultivate the richness of diversity made possible by congregation
    led services and support.

Jerry .1,

	The income of professional clergy varies widely.  At one United
Methodist church where I was a member (of about 400 members), in addition
to a base salary, there was also a housing allowance, travel allowance,
on-going education allowance, family health and life insurance and a pension
fund, which altogether added up to more than $30K per year - not great shakes,
but well above the median income for Colorado Springs.

	My present pastor is paid closer to $17K with nowhere near the
benefits, and in my opinion is shamefully underpaid for someone of his
qualifications and abilities.

Peace,
Richard

Pastors at churches I've been at have usually been paid
at least adequately.  Four years ago, the pastor at my
church had a package worth close to $40,000 (only about
half of that in actual income).  A package worth a similar
amount was what the senior pastor made at my last church
with the associate pastor making somewhat less.  BTW,
this church supported 2 full-time pastors on 69 "giving
units" (families/individuals that contribute regularly)
plus a missions budget that was 30% of the total budget.

I don't know what the package is at my current church.  When
I was active in United Methodist churches, the conference
set standards with our church in the middle with a package
worth about $23,000 - but this was over 10 years ago.  In
all these situations, the church provided a parsonage.

Collis

Total clergy compensation for the rector of Trinity Church (the big
church on Copley Square in Boston) is about $115,000.  This includes
salary, housing, and benefits.

(I think that's more than his immediate superior, the Bishop, makes).

Oh, yeah, and I think the job is open at the moment.

/john

    In the UCC entry level pastors are compensated with about $15-18K cash
    and other "package" benefits that bring the total package to about
    double the cash.
    
    Senior level pastors in larger settings (say 400+ members) often get
    $30K cash plus the same ratio as above for the total package.
    
    Parttime pastors (say around 10-20 hrs/week) are generally paid by the
    "unit" where a unit might be a morning, an afternoon or an evening. 
    They might get $50 to $100 per unit w/o any other benefits.
    
    Often pastors ask for a higher housing allowance with less cash for
    tax purposes.
    
    IN a few rare occasions, a senior pastor might make $50+K cash plus the
    rest of the package.
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    
    ps: only thirty people were at the church on Sunday probably because it
    was the first Sunday after Christmas and many people were away.  When
    the church has its ususal count of people, the number is around fifty.
    
    As the church is a Presbyterian "startup" church, it is partially
    funded by the denomination with their putting in less and less over
    time (around five years or so).  The church began in the basement of
    a shutdown elementary school and shared space with another group.  So,
    each Sunday people had to completely set up the church for the Sunday
    worship service and tear it down after the service.
    
    The congregation made a decision last year to move to an abandoned
    warehouse on RT 106 in Easton even though it meant a much larger
    financial commitment to the congregants.  They did this so that they
    would be more visible to the community and thus hoped to be more of
    a drawing for new members.  This was done when the membership was about
    34 people.
    
    It's really great to see this little church be so intentional about
    itself and its members.  The pastors of the church are doing a shared
    ministry as co-pastors (and as wife and husband).
    

.7> Often pastors ask for a higher housing allowance with less cash for
.7> tax purposes.

You mean that the "benefits" of housing, etc .. are not taxable?

Yet I have a Digital fleet car and they have attached a "net worth"
to me so that I have to include it as "income" whether it's mine or
not.  Wrong.  Big time wrong.

Bubba

    Hey, Bubba!  I've got a quick solution to this.
    
    Just trade salaries with one of these pastors and the also include the
    extras.  The pastors just might be nice enough to entertain such a
    notion - in the spirit of giving you a break.
    
    	;-)
    

Note 577.7

>    ps: only thirty people were at the church on Sunday probably because it
>    was the first Sunday after Christmas and many people were away.  When
>    the church has its ususal count of people, the number is around fifty.

I noticed our numbers were smaller than usual on the 27th.  Lots of people
doubtlessly had made plans for the long weekend.

My church presently boasts a membership of 50 individuals.  It ain't easy
makin' it all happen.

Shalom,
Richard

    Most Methodist clergy in the east get a salary, housing, and some sort
    of transportation allowance. The money is not a lot. As my father said
    when he retired, "I've never had just one job at a time ..." And indeed
    he could not have retired if he had only had the one job. Mostly he's 
    retired on his Navy reserve retirement. Also most cleric that I know of
    are considered self employed for tax purposes. So they have to pay all
    of the Social Security tax themselves. And expenses are generally
    higher then what they are reimbursed for. And the hours far longer then
    most realize.

    As for how small churches do it - many of them don't pay that much at
    all.Nor do they all provide housing. Some do it by having pastors who
    are in a "tent maker ministry". What this means is that the paster
    works full (or part) time at a job that meets most of their needs and
    so supports themselves in their ministry. Also sometimes two or more
    (though seldom more then 3) churches share a minister and their
    expenses. This often means that the church doesn't have Sunday morning
    service every week. An other option is student pastors. Students in
    seminary not yet ordained serving as temporary paster. Usually someone
    else must be called in to administer the sacraments.

    Other options include lay speakers for most services and occasional
    ordained in for the sacraments. Some small churches are mission
    churches where the pastor is funded for some term by a large church or
    the denomination. I have a cousin serving in this role at this time.
    An other source is retired clergy suplimenting their slim retirement
    income with some extra walking around money and cheap housing.

    As for the rest of the work, it has been my experience that the number
    of people involved in doing the work even in a large church is very
    small. IN a small church with correspondingly less work to be done one
    will often find a core of 3-10 who do it all. Hard on them at time but
    the dedication of some people is a joy to watch. And a source of
    fulfillment to them.

    			Alfred

Thanks, Alfred .11,

You've reminded me that there's an up side to belonging to a small church, too.

I like the intimacy of a small church.  I like the idea that I know every
member by name.  I like the idea that my participation is genuinely missed
when I cannot be present.   I like the idea that I make a difference.

I like the idea that the pastor and church officers are so accessible to me.
I like the idea of brief and relatively infrequent meetings.

Peace,
Richard

    Not that it's any consolation to small churches struggling to pay the
    bills, but these organizational issues are common to Jewish synagogues,
    too.
    
    It's particularly challenging when the organization is new and doesn't
    have the benefit of years of endowments, nor the time, energy, and
    money brought by folks whose kids are grown.
    
    I kind of envy my co-worker who belongs to a venerable old
    Congregationalist church.  This church has so much money that their
    biggest problem is how to spend it.  Of course he doesn't share the
    pleasures of molding a new organization.
    
    My husband and I belong to a synagogue that is less than a year old. 
    We were the 20th family to join. The synagogue is struggling to pay our
    rabbi a decent part-time salary and pay the rent on a building we share
    with several other users.  At High Holy Days next year we'll be too big
    for the largest space in town and we really need to buy or build. 
    Heaven knows where the money will come from.  You gotta believe!
    
    I also identified with some of the dilemmas in the pastoral search
    topic.
    
    Organizations are organizations.  Bless all of us who contribute our
    time and energy.
    
    L
    

Laura,

Last year I went to a friend's daughter's Bat Mitzvah and was seated at
the table with the Rabbi (Conservative).

From what I understood, the shul has dues.  That is, each family pays
a specific required annual amount (about $700).

It didn't sound optional at all, and didn't sound like families were
expected to base their contribution on their income or ability to pay.
The amount sounded very fixed.

According to the 1992 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches, giving
per member is as follows (RC data is from another source):

Roman Catholic			$128
Southern Baptist		$323
United Methodist		$335
United Church of Christ		$374
Evangelical Lutheran		$385
Disciples			$536
Presbyterian			$641
Episcopal			$811

Not sure how to interpret this; I think the RC figures are probably affected
by the larger average family size; giving per family may be more in line with
giving per family in other groups.  Episcopalians may be high partly because
there are a large number of single Episcopalians due to discouragement of
remarriage after divorce.

/john

    RE: .1
    
    Bubba....around the New England area, the salary runs in the low 
    to hign 20K range. If you add in the benifits, the total package
    can run up to around 60-70K.
    
    Marc H.

    RE:  .14
    
    John,
    
    Those are interesting numbers.  Does your yearbook say that these
    figures are per family or literally per individual?  If per individual,
    do they average the numbers to include children?  Do they include
    religious education?  Are these fees separate from the plate donations
    on Sunday.  I understand some churches obtain much of their operating
    budget from plate donations.  I assume that churches, like synagogues
    do fund raisers ranging from rummage sales to big donor dinners.  True?
    
    Jewish congregations keep stats on a per household basis.  This is
    often presented as "per family" but it actually means household because
    an extended family in multiple houses will usually pay for each
    household, eg the dues for a young husband and wife in an apartment are
    paid separately from their parents in a different house.
    
    We break out the school fees separately.  The schools always have a
    separate budget.
    
    Synagogue fees vary widely depending on location (higher in New York
    City than in Cleveland), and many other factors.  There are averages
    available to help synagogue boards set the numbers.
    
    L

I don't have a copy of the yearbook, but the article from which I copied
the information does explicitly say "Giving per Member".  It would include
loose plate collections as well as pledges, but may or may not include
other fund raising activities, such as tickets to parish dinners or to a
choir fund-raising concert.  It would probably include generous donations
in the case of parishes which have parochial schools, but would not include
the tuition at private prep schools like St. Mary's/Ascension (RC) or St.
Agnes/St. Stephens (Episcopal) in Alexandria, Va.

One obvious problem is differing methods of figuring out who is a "member".
A recent issue of the Roman Catholic (Jesuit) magazine "America" had a study
on figuring out what RC church membership is and discussed various different
methods, usually based on a statistical abstraction from the number of
baptisms and funerals done each year.  Certainly a significant number of
these people do not come to church very often.

At the other end of the scale, the Episcopal Church keeps fairly accurate
records of membership.  Canon law requires an Episcopalian to register
himself with a new parish when moving (and proof of baptism and confirmation
will be forwarded).  And, more recently, Episcopal churches admit people to
communion who are not members (as long as they are communicants of another
Christian Church).  So it is not at all uncommon for there to be people who
are part of the life of the parish, possibly very active, singing in the
choir, contributing financially, even pledging, who are Protestants or Roman
Catholics and who have not taken the initiative to be confirmed (if Protestant)
or received by the bishop (if Roman Catholic).  [I have one Lutheran/Roman
Catholic couple at my parish in mind.]

So I don't know that the statistics prove anything at all.

/john

<<Christian Church).  So it is not at all uncommon for there to be people who
are part of the life of the parish, possibly very active, singing in the
choir, contributing financially, even pledging, who are Protestants or Roman
Catholics and who have not taken the initiative to be confirmed (if Protestant)
or received by the bishop (if Roman Catholic).  [I have one Lutheran/Roman
Catholic couple at my parish in mind.]

Yes quite common, the Nashua Episcopal church also has a large number of Roman 
Catholic as well as other Protestant denominations as active members.

Ro

    "Membership" can be a tricky thing in many organizations. I think that
    technically I'm still on the membership roll of the church I attended
    12-13 years ago in a place far away. My wife is on the rolls of a 
    Catholic church though she hasn't considered herself a Catholic in
    close to 20 years. I think we have a topic on this somewhere. :-)

    One thing to remember about the giving per member is that some churches
    run to larger memberships. For example in my old neighborhood the
    Methodist church was lucky to get 200 out on Sunday while the Catholic
    church ran more like 2000. Their costs were higher but not 10 times
    higher. The old saying "many hands make light work" also applies to
    fund raising.

    		Alfred

Re: .14

Are those annual figures?  If so, they are pretty bad!

My church just hired a new senior pastor.  The package offered to
him was a matter of public record, as it was sent to all registered
members along with the candidates bio.

For a Presbyterian church with about 200 families, he was offered
something like the following (from memory):

$30K base salary
$10K housing allowance
$fewK travel
$fewK misc?

Total was about $45K.

    
    I know that my parent's church can't afford a full-time pastor.
    Their pastor is only part-time and he teaches at a local
    community college.
    
    An interesting (at least to me) sidenote.  So often church budgets
    are based on the limits we as people have.  This is the first time
    I've been in a church where each board prays for what God's
    will is and they then decides how much is needed to do it.
    The budget has continuous increased.  I believe last year it
    was by 24%, this year it's by about 38%.  There is no way that we
    can see how we are going to meet this budget.  The church has been
    doing this for about 5-8 years and has met their budget each year.
    This last year we had a surplus of $3K which we are able to use
    now to add another nursery rest room because we need to expand our
    nursery space due to the numbers of our congregation climbing higher
    and higher.  The Singles group is even moving out of the building
    for Sunday School.  A local mall is giving us space and charging
    us $10 a week for setting up chairs and tables.  It's great to 
    see God working.  Ephesians 3:20 says "Now to him who is able to
    do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his
    power that is at work within us."
    
    Jill