Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Nancy,

I believe that the government of Israel are like the
civil-government at the time of Christ. They are just as zealous
as they are today in belief that they are the ONLY ones that
should be living there. As for the decendents of the folks who
lived there since the birth of Christ are non persons.

It's much like how we treated the Native Americans in the past
(and still do, in some ways).

The agenda of Saddam Hussein in linking the treatment of the
Palestinians with the pull out of Kuwait is in itself a ploy to
justify the attack on Kuwait. From what I heard lately, the US
Ambassador said to Iraq that the US does not get involved in arab
border disputes; and I guess, not really checking out the
intentions of the Iraqies, let things drop. I believe that she
was a left-over from the Reagan years when he appointed folks for
their politics rather than their ability to do the job.

I believe that in 500 years, it will just be an insignificant
item in Christian history; or it may be the beginning of the
downfall of a different order for God's "choosen" people. Pat
Robertson and other fundamentalist folks will fight because of
the Christian significance of the piece of land but I believe
that Christianity can survive without the piece of land where
Christ stood.

I, too, am scared that if we persist in apeasing the Zionists, we
will continue to have trouble in the middle east. We must, above
all, remember that God discounts the commercial value and acts to
uphold those who follows His son (Jesus) commandments, that is to
love your enemy. Jeudism and christianity will survive all
threats of war since it is in the hearts of men; not part of a
realestate.

calvin

re Note 150.1 by CSC32::C_HOE:

> Robertson and other fundamentalist folks will fight because of
> the Christian significance of the piece of land but I believe
> that Christianity can survive without the piece of land where
> Christ stood.

        Cal,

        Isn't their position based not on the fact of where Christ
        stood but on the Biblical promises by God giving the land to
        Israel?  (Which begs the question whether a re-assembling of
        people descended from Israel is in fact Israel.)

        Bob

    I thought they were descendants of Ishmael (Isaac's brother).  Am I
    way off base?

    Re .4  Isaac's half-brother, to be precise.
    
    Richard

    Palestinians are not Philistines.  Philistines were not related to
    Abraham.  Palestinians are sons of Ishmael and Ishmael was a blood 
    son of Abraham.  
    
    
    
                                   Marshall

    This much my trusty encyclopedia has provided me:
    
    The name "Palestine" is derived from a word meaning "land of the
    Philistines."  It says that the ancient Philistines were a non-Semetic
    group, which came probably from Crete.  So, it looks like Marshall was
    right on, and I was wrong.
    
    My apologies for providing erroneous information.  I am deleting 150.3
    and replacing it with this note.
    
    Peace
    Richard

    I always find it ironic when Jews accuse Palestinians of being
    anti-Semitic.

	... LOVE to know how you REPLACED a reply in the middle of a series
of replies!!!  Is my VAX NOTES behind the times ( V2.1) ??  Many is the time
I've wanted (needed!!) to do that.

    RE: .8 Technical questions first. The command used to move a note is
    SET NOTE/NOTE_ID=new_note. So what was done with .3 probably was to
    delete 150.3 (using the DELETE command), create a new REPLY and then
    issue the command SET NOTE/NOTE_ID=150.3. This works fine for
    everything but base notes (note.0) which are something of a special
    case.

    Now on to the rest.

    There was a Palestinian state for several minutes. It was created the
    same time that Israel was. As that took effect Arab countries attacked
    Israel in an attempt to destroy the country. They failed. The Arab 
    nations at the time were unwilling to accept a "Jewish" state. In
    effect they played double or nothing and got the nothing. According
    to my memory of conversations with Palestinian Arabs (a 15 or so years
    ago) many of the refugees were forced out of the area by Arabs not
    Jews. And in fact many could return home, assuming they haven't been
    involved in military actions and the like, but there is considerable
    Arab pressure not to. Many Israeli Jews told me that they would not
    have a problem with Arabs returning. They just want a peaceful return
    and for both Jews and Arabs to live in peace.

    The current government in Israel is in many ways between a rock and a
    hard place. There are so many people on both sides that are unwilling
    to forgive and forget that compromise is difficult. The "uprising" in
    the West Bank seems designed to prevent compromise BTW. I believe a
    peaceful political solution could well have happened but for the
    radicalization the Indefada has caused. I do not believe that the PLO
    and other radical Arab groups want a compromise. Their actions
    contradict that claim. They never leave room for it and people (Arabs)
    who work for compromise often wind up "missing."

    This is not to say that I agree with everything Israel does. Not so.
    They should be making greater effort to involved Arabs in politics
    for example. They should also make some moves to create a permanent
    definition of what the West Bank is. Annexation would at least allow
    a stable know entity to evolve. Creation of a separate state would be
    better but the Arabs, by their actions not words, appear not to want
    that. If they did they would quiet the area down and show the Israelis
    that there is no threat there to the rest of the area.

    I do not believe that the current Israeli government is the one for the
    end of times BTW. Many Jews agree. They believe that the real
    government will be set up by a/the Messiah. Some of these Jews were in
    Israel long before the State of Israel was formed  and opposed its
    creation.

    RE: Linkage with Kuwait. I believe that Iraq and Kuwait are linked with
    the Palestinian situation at about the same level as it is linked with
    Lithuania and USSR. Actually neither is related but the later is more
    similar. Linking the Kuwait invasion with the situation in Israel is
    not only illogical but immoral. Why? Because in Iraq's case we have
    an unwarranted invasion. In Israel we have a response to invasion.
    Opposites. Linking them implies that to invade is good to defend is
    bad.

    			Alfred

They interviewed a writer of a book about the Ottoman Empire on
Fresh Air on Public Radio. The author said that Iraq was created
by the British Imperialists from 2 provinces of the Ottoman
Empire and one province from the Kuwaiti kingdom. The question
that I have is, then, how does Iraq get the idea that Kuwait was
a province of Iraq?

If I remember the conversation, they said the Brits installed a
King Fiasl in Iraq and the currant dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Both
kingdoms were bitter enemies.

cal hoe

    That's easy.  Iraq uses that as an excuse to justify their invasion. 

(Sarah's hand maiden) HAGAR----ABRAHAM----SARAH (his wife----KETURAH (2nd wife)
                       |                    |   & sister)         |
                       |                    |                 (6 sons)
                       |                    |
               (1st born) ISHMAEL         ISAAC  (2nd born) 
                       |                    |
                       |                    |
                 PALESTINIANS      JACOB renamed 'ISRAEL' 
                 and all Arab               |   (no blessing for ESAU,
                    nations                 |    his older twin)
                       |                    |
                       |                    |
                       |          (12 tribes, including JUDAH)
                                                         v
                                                         v
                                                      CHRIST JESUS

>If I remember the conversation, they said the Brits installed a
>King Fiasl in Iraq and the currant dynasty in Saudi Arabia. Both
>kingdoms were bitter enemies.

    FWIW, King Fiasl of Iraq and the king installed by the British
    in Jordan were related. Brothers I believe. Ethnicly and religiously
    Jordan and Iraq are closer then Iraq and Kuwait. I would not
    rest easy if I were king of Jordan knowing that the man who ruled
    Iraq had already had one royal relative killed.

    As for Iraq and Saudi Arabia, I heard a commentator say that other
    then Egypt there are not real Arab nations. Only Arab tribes. I
    believe this is a somewhat unfair characterization but that most 
    of the middle east was populated by nomadic peoples for whom national
    boundaries had little meaning. The finding of oil changed all that.
    I tend to believe that oil is the heart of most middle east conflicts
    that are not strictly religious.

    The Arab/Israeli and Lebanon troubles are religious.

    			Alfred

O Lord, soften the stone hearts

of those who preach and practice

intolerance and bigotry;

as the sun's setting glow

softens the stone walls

of your Holy City, Jerusalem.


Lord, the rocky hills, the valleys

the deserts and the sea shores

are filled with echoes of

centuries of pain.


Lord, bring peace to house and village.

Comfort the mothers who fret

and those who mourn.

Lord, keep strong the twisted old root

of the olive tree,

and protect the young vine.

Lord of water and stone,

of bread and wine,

Lord of resurrection,

feed hope, and bring peace

to this wracked but beautiful holy land.

 - Gerald Butt
   used with permission through the kindness of the Episcopal Church
   of Palestine.

"The peoples of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism should listen, and heed
the words of their prophets and build and work together.  No one has called
his people to hate each other."

					- Mufti, Islamic Higher Council

"I believe that Jewish heritage and Zionism that I profess cannot ever
allow for discrimination.  Many Jews think that history somehow justifies
our having a leg up on someone else, and asserting our own needs at the
expense of soemone lese's.  I don't accept that.  It is a blemish on
Zionist thinking."

				- Rabbi Jeremy Milgrom, Clergy for Peace

    this is a long dead string, but In Honor of Yitzhak rabin (sp) I reread
    "Skinny Legs and All" by Tom Robbins, seems the peacemakers in
    Palestine will always wind up being opposed and villified by some.  
    
    meg

.17

>   seems the peacemakers in
>   Palestine will always wind up being opposed and villified by some.  

It ain't just in Palestine.

Shalom,
Richard