Conference napalm::musclecars

    
    Considering a new carb for my 79 Z-28. Rebuilt the engine last fall
    it now has 9.5 compression and Comp Cams 280H. It has headers and
    an Edelbrock performer intake. It presently has a Holly 600 vacuum
    secondary carb. I have rebuilt this carb several times but keep blowing
    power valves. I'm asuming it's the power valve because my idle screws
    do little when adjusted. 
    
    Anybody have any experience with other carbs for this application? 
    Holly? Carter? Edelbrock?
    
    Holly also has a new series of carbs out with a polished exterier and
    different internals including a blow-proof power valve. Anybody heard
    of these before? Do you think it may be worth a try?
    
    Thanks
    Mark

    
    Your engine is set up almost like mine in a '76.  Backfires thru the
    carb can blow a power valve.  Make sure your ignition timing is set
    properly.  Where is your idle speed set?  If it is high enough to open
    the throttle plates enough to go past the idle holes, you will be
    running off the intermediate circuit of the car.  What some Holley
    manuals say to do in this case is take the throttle plate and drill a
    hole in each one to allow air to pass through.  Then the throttle plate
    will close further to draw the fuel at idle through the idle holes. 
    Then your idle mixture screws will have more control of the engine.  I
    did this on mine.  I think your power valve might be fine.  Check the
    timing.  If it's ok yank the carb and see the position of the throttle
    plate in relation to the idle holes.  It's cheaper than buying a new
    carb.
    Matt
    

    re last:
    
    I don't run a choke, I only drive the car in warm whether. The car will
    idle almost immediately , like 30 seconds after startup. I pulled the
    plugs last weekend and they are all kinda on the dark side. Defineitly
    running on the rich side. 
    
    I keep the idle speed around 900 rpm or so.
    
    How big of a hole are you talking about in the throttle plates?  This
    is a one shot deal right? If this doesn't fix the problem these holes
    are perminent. 
    
    The car has backfired through the carb before, due to lack of choke.
    But they all seem to be minor. No real pop.
    
    Does this more info help?
    
    Mark

     
     I just went through a terrible time and just thought I'd pass down
    
    information that may be useful.
    
    When ever you have a Fuel transfer tube between fuel bowls it is best
    
    to replace the rubber O rings on each end of the tube. Those O rings
    
    should tightly fit over the tube.If they are loose (due to heat, etc)
    
    or imperfect than itll leak gas each time.
    
                                                  Thomas
    

    
    Hi Mark,
    Yes you are right, the holes are permanent, at least until you replace
    the throttle blades.  It's sort of a trial and error thing.  Make some
    small holes, maybe an eighth of an inch, and then readjust your idle
    speed screw to close the throttle blades a bit so your speed is where
    it was before.  Then check the closed position of the blades to the
    idle fuel ports.  If it is still open too much, yank the carb again and
    try a bit bigger hole.  This is an empirical science!
    Matt

    This sort of fix will only correct a rich idle, correct?  I feel that
    my car is running rich all the time. A dark plug would indicate this,
    right?  If I stomp on it I get a dark cloud from my tailpipes, not
    blue!
    
    If I did decide to get a new carb does anybody have any recomondations?
    Name brand? CFM? vacuum or machanical secondarys? Sqaure bore or spead
    bore?
    
    Or is the consensus that my carb is okay?
    
    thanks,
    
    Mark

    Interesting, is your power valve still blown?  That would make it run
    rich all the time like you've seen.  Is there any problem with fitting
    a choke to your carb?  If the carb is otherwise good, that may be the
    way to go.
    Matt

Mike Urich wrote a small book on the 4150/4160 Holley, which is what it sounds like
you've got.  In it he covers things like problems with idle due to radical
cams (drilling holes in throttle plates), etc.  It's about $5 at the local speed
shop.  Helped me out by giving me pointers, but still leaves room for the application
of a lot of magic and trial by error.

Chris

I have a Holley question for you folks that have tinkered with them.  I have a
Holley O-3310, 750 cfm vacuum secondary carb on my SBC 331 in the Vega.

The problem is that it bogs somewhat upon initial acceleration (transitioning 
idle to main circuit?) and it also is reall rich.

My guess is that I need to rejet it.  How do I know what size jets to use.
I also need to change the power valve.  I think that the factory puts a 6.5 in 
them (?).  If I remember the formula correctly (in hg/2)-1, I need a 4 in there
since I have 10 inches of vacuum when idling at 900 rpm.

What do you guys think?

Thanks,
Mark

    
      Mark,
    
      I would change the power valve first, then check and see if the 
    engine is still running rich.  I am pretty sure your formula is
    correct.
    
      What size jets do you have installed currently?  A general rule of 
    thumb for changing jets is to go a maximum of two sizes at a time.  
    
      You might also want to fiddle around with different size accelerator
    pump shooters, and different springs in the vacuum secondary actuator.
    
    Tom
    

Right now the carb is still in out of the box condition which means (I think) 
that it has #72 jets in it as well as the 6.5 power valve.  

Mark

    I called Holley with a similar question when I lived in Utah. Their
    first suggestion was to change the jets (but I didn't have as much cam
    as you!). Their recommendation was to drop down one jet size for each
    1,000 ft of altitude. However, your situation may be different,
    considering the mods that have been made to the engine. 
    
    Look through the stuff that came with the carb. There should be a tech
    support number in there. Give them a call and tell them all of your
    engine specs. They should be able to get you very close on the first
    try.
    
    Harry
    

    Hi,,,
    
    I believe the 3310 comes with 72 primary, 76 secondary. Secondary is 
    a plate, not jets, right ? Anyway on mine, I swapped out the plate
    for a block, and run #68 primary / #72 secondary... That is just
    a tad rich here in the springs, and right on (depending on conditions)
    in Pueblo.... 
    
    
    					Brian...

Harry,  thanks I'll look for the phone number this evening.

Brian, I have the plate on my carb.  The block also gives you 4 corner idle
screws doesn't it?  How many $ for the block?  Is it a bolt on?

Mark

Harry,  thanks I'll look for the phone number this evening.

Brian, I have the plate on my carb.  The block also gives you 4 corner idle
screws doesn't it?  How many $ for the block?  Is it a bolt on?

Mark

    Nope,,, Just 2 idle screws...  If I remember, the block is around
    $25...
    
    			Brian...

re: .-a few


According to reputable sources at my local speed shop, the correct power valve
should be one that opens at a manifold vacuum calculated by taking the idle vacuum
and dividing by two.  So, in your case of 10" Hg at idle, you would need one that 
begins to open at around 5"Hg.  The 6.5 valve is already beginning to open, 
probably resulting the the richness you're experiencing.

    
    Can anyone provide a phone # for Holley?  I believe they
    have a 1-800 number for ordering parts, etc.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Tom

Holley Automotive
Sales Department
Replacement Parts Division
11955 E. Nine Mile road
Warren, Michigan  48090
(313)497-4000
Technical Hotline (Tennesee)
(615)859-4924

    Just a curiosity question here.  In what direction have other people
    gone when changing spring tension on their vacuum secondary Holleys?
         The other day I was messing around with my 3310 750cfm on a 351c,
    and I went to a lighter secondary spring.  There was a big difference.
    The car felt slower used more gas and bogged big time.  I have since 
    changed back to the stock spring and will probably go to one that is 
    one step firmer than that.  The secondaries open audibly at close to 
    2000rpm now.  At idle there is only 11" of mercury on a vacuum guage
    thats why I thought a softer spring would be better.
         Any advice,comments,criticsm appreciated...
    
                 Dean_who_likes_the_quick_change_kit
    

Generally speaking, on heavy cars, you should tune things towards a heavier
spring.  In the days of my youth, I used to like the 'slap in the back' that
the lighter springs provided (Sunoco 260 used to cost 39/9 then).  Being older
(and presumably wiser), I've discovered the errors of my youth.

The only real way to fine-tune your setup is to do things slowly and measure your
times carefully with a stop watch.  You'll see an increase in performance, up
to a point, then it'll drop off.  Using too light a spring will let the secondaries
flop open too early and you get the bog.  Opening them too late and you might
as well have a 2bbl.  

I've a '71 Torino (4200lb) pushed by a 302 with an Edelbrock Performer, an 1850
on top, headers and 3.00 rearend gears.  Turns out that I went to one rate heavier
spring and boosted 0-60 times.  I stopped there, for now I'm happy.

Trial and error, no fancy formulas, no reading tea leaves.


Chris

    I have to agree with with .21
    
    The 4300 lbs Goose goes better with a one step heavier (brown color)
    spring when I was using the 600 CFM holly.
    
    I'm back to the Qjet cause the Holly needs a rebuild yet again!
    I'm about convince that I'm going to get an Edlebrock 750 CFM next
    year. I like the way they are built and basically they are an AFB which
    was superior in it's day.
    
    /tb/
    

    Thanks for the reps.  I changed to the now coveted brown spring 
    last night and things are looking up.  I can't hear the secondaries
    open audibly till closer to 2300rpm which is better for me.
    before when cruising at 55 the secondaries would be opening
    now they don't.  As i was looking at my sping assortment I 
    noticed one extra spring all grey.  Its not listed on the chart
    and I am 99% sure it came in the kit ideas anyone ?  I may still
    try the heaviest spring, black in the future.  I would like to try
    a few timed runs to get a baseline then try the black spring. At 
    least now its in the ball park.
    
               Dean

    
       GONE
    
      I sold it on Friday with the brown spring in it.  Thats ok I like
    the green stuff he gave me better :-).

    Does anyone have a schematic or know what's involved with installing
    a late model (85-6) TPI on an early small block Chevy? I'd like to
    put a TPI on my 67 Camaro. The harness kits are advertised from
    $350-$600.00  I would think I could make one up for less than that.
    
    John

    Do you have the TPI unit yet? If not, just make sure that you get the
    computer and wiring harness from the donor car when you get everything
    else. Don't forget the sensors! They cost mucho bucks from GM.
    
    I got a complete TPI engine from a wrecked '87 Corvette. I made sure to
    get the harness and computer, and the various modules and relays that
    bolt to the firewall. The only sensor I didn't get was the Mass Air
    Flow sensor. GM gets around $400 for one, but I found a used one for
    $75. (Some TPI's use a MAP sensor (speed density system) rather than
    the MAF system. The systems with the MAP sensor don't take kindly to
    radical cams.) 
    
    With all of that stuff in hand, I ordered the factory service manual
    which had excellent wiring diagrams and explanations of where
    everything went and how it functioned. There were only about 5 wires
    that had to be spliced into the harness on the '75 Blazer that the
    engine went into. (Removing all the unneeded wires from the 'vette
    harness took considerably longer!) The major task was replumbing the
    entire fuel system to cope with the ~50 PSI on the supply side, and a
    return line to let the excess fuel get back to the tank.
    
    Beware that many of the aftermarket harnesses don't use an oxygen
    sensor and as such the computer always runs in 'limp home' mode rather
    than fine tuning itself for optimum performance.
    
    All in all, it's quite an undertaking. I spent 10-12 hours every
    Saturday and Sunday for about 4 months getting everything swapped over,
    but some of that time included customizing the motor mount brackets to
    clear the 'vette headers, fabricating the custom 316 SS duals, and
    other incidentals required during an engine swap. If not for the warm
    shop, fabrication and welding skills of the Mad Weldor who so
    graciously gave up time and space in the Fantasy Factory, it probably
    would have never been finished! :-)
    
    You can also check out topic 454 in GENRAL::4WD for more of the gory
    details (including the story of how I grenaded it exactly 3 weeks after
    getting it running). :-(
    
    Harry
    

    Thanks Harry. BTW, what are you doing with your TPI? I was told to
    use a 350 Corvette unit from an 85-6 because the injectors are bigger
    than that of a 305. Also the 87 and newer TPI's have the straight
    center bolt holes for the new style heads, whereas the 85-6 is a direct
    bolt on. A guy I know has an `85 unit from a Corvette that he'll sell
    me for $500. He said I would need to buy a "Howell"(?) harness for 
    around $300 and also get a computer from a Corvette,IROC,or GTA.
    We're looking at a grand here. I saw a 305 IROC TPI motor for sale
    in the Want-Ad for $1000.  I think I'll shop around a bit to find
    one a little less expensive, and go with your advice on the factory
    manual and re-fit a factory harness. It sounds easy enough.
    TPiS (tm) will sell me a complete "Mini-Ram" for around $3700. !!!
    I said no thanks..Oh well........
    
    John

    My TPI unit is undergoing many hours under the grinder, smoothing the
    base and plenum ports, as well as enlarging them just a bit. :-) I've
    already spent close to 40 hours grinding and sanding the 'vette heads,
    and figure that in another 40 or so they'll be ready to go to the
    machine shop to be cleaned up and get a 3 angle valve job. ( I now know
    why head porting is so expensive! It's VERY time consuming. I can't
    imagine how long it would take with iron heads!)
    
    Once the heads are finished, they'll be bolted to the RHS 383 that's
    sitting out in the garage. Then the TPI unit will be put back in place
    and the engine installed in the ThunderTruck(tm). The boys at RHS said
    that I should get somewhere in the 400 ft/lbs range with this setup and
    the cam they installed. I can hardly wait... :-)
    
    Last I knew, the harness from Howell engineering was around $650, but
    this was a couple of years ago. Maybe he's been forced to lower prices
    due to competition.  There's also a complete aftermarket TPI unit from
    AirSensors for around $2K. It includes just about everything needed to
    install it, tpi system, injectors, computer, harness, fuel pump, etc.
    
    Harry
    

    Harry,
     I don't know how far along you are with the intake but, I just saw
    an article in either HRM, Super Chevy, or Car Craft that showed this
    old but new-to-racing extrusion process to smooth out flow passages
    in intakes,etc. The process forces an abrasive through the ports
    opening them and smoothing to almost a polished finish. It looked
    very impressive and it's designed to be much more affordable than
    hand porting timewise. I believe there is an operation set up in
    Florida. I'm going to give them a call when I'm ready with mine..
    I think they are geared up to do heads also...
    
    John

    All this talk about TPI engines, I shouldn't be telling you this, but
    I've already got my order in.  SLP had an ad in the latest Car Craft
    selling new 1992 TPI engines for $1800, computer included. They were
    also selling the automatic transmissions (I don't recall the price)
    and a set of black insert GTA wheels with Goodyear 245/50-16 tires
    for $1000.  Obviously, SLP is selling off the hardware they are 
    replacing on the Firehawk Firebirds.  If you want any of this 
    stuff, call SLP and get in the order queue.  Sorry, I don't have the
    number with me at work.
    
    Ken

    I spoke with SLP already on that subject, but seem to remember that
    the computer was Not included. It's still a good deal for a `92  350
    245hp motor. If it was the aluminum head Corvette motor hhmmmmm.....
    
    BTW the ph. # is 908/240-3696  in N.J.
    
    John

    
    	Are there any other markings like "Performer" or "Torker" or the
    like? or any other markings of any kind?

    Nope all it says is Edlebrock and 048. It is a dual plane and it
    has been on something in the past is about all I can tell you.
    
                                         Dean

    I recently picked up a dual plane Edlebrock intake supposedly for
    my 429/460 powered Torino.  Well to make a long story short the
    person I purchased it from led me astray.  The intake is definetly
    for a big block but beyond that I don't know what it fits. There
    is a number cast into it 048. Can anyone help me identify it or
    point me to someone who can.  I looked in Jegs and Summit and 
    couldn't find any of their PN that resembled this. If I can
    identify it it will be for sale at a very reasonable price.
    
    
                Dean

    If you are sure it's for a bigblock Ford, does it have pushrod holes
    through it and a pad for the valev cover gasket? If it does then it's
    for an "FE" block, not for a 429/460. Hey Tom, got any ideas, since 
    you're a Ford man.

    I'm not sure what its for except BB it could be for anything.
    I don't know what you mean by pushrod holes. There are some
    bolt holes that are angled and some that are straight down.
    As for a pad for the VC gasket if you mean a casting in the intake
    I don't know ...How could I tell? or if you mean another piece that
    goes with it, all I have is the intake. How about some easier questions
    like what color is it, is it heavy :-) these I'm pretty sure I can 
    answer :-). Thanks for the replies so far.
    
    
                    Dean
    

    If it has round or oval ports and no thermostat housing it is probably
    for a 351 or 400 assuming it is for a ford at all. I've got some of
    these manifolds at home and will check them for numbers.
    
                                    JL

    The ports are rectangular and larger than a late model 429/460
    aluminum intake that I have seen, but not as large as the round/oval
    ports on a SCJ 429/460 intake. I cant remember if there is a
    thermostat housing on it I will check tonight as well as take
    a second look for any other identifying characteristics. One 
    other detail that I can remember is a 429/460 intake has an
    "indent" where the distributer would be, but this intake is
    "straight" across the end.
    
                      Dean

    In 1968 and 1969 the Z28 Camaros had an optional cross ram dual quad
    set up.  I believe it had 2 holley 600cfm carbs.  The question I have
    is:  Is there anyone out there with that particular setup on a 302
    camaro?  And what kinds of hp do you get from it.  I understand the 
    cross ram is rare and very expensive if one can be found.  Also would
    a big holley 1150 3bbl work as well on the existing high reiser that
    the Z28 came with? 
    
    			dennis
    

    Re .38 others
     
         Well I looked at the manifold real good this weekend theres a 
    themrostat housing near the front center. The back of the Manifold
    is indented and the cast on it is actually 04B it is stamped Edlebrock
    and 04b in two places but thats it.
                   _                _
    A pic         |  \             / |
                  |    \         /   |
                  |      \     /     | 
                  |        \_/       |
                  |                  | 
                  |                  | 
                  |                  | 
                  |______*___________|
    
* = thermo housing
The angle of the back is not as sharp as that
    
                      Dean

    Dean,                     
    
    As we discussed the other day, an FE Ford intake will look
    something like this:
                      __________________
                      |\b             /|     b=bolts (outside raised boss)
                      |o\ b          /o|             
                      |o|    ____    |o|
                      |o| b  |OO|    |o|
                      |o|    |OO|    |o|
                      |o| b  ----    |o<----- Pushrod holes
                      |o/            \o|
                      |/ b      ( )   \<-------- Raised boss for manifold
                      ---| |-||--^------         side of valve cover (Valve
                          ^  ||  |               cover SPANS head and intake) 
                          |  ^   |
                          |  |  Distributor mounting boss
                          |  |
                          | Coolant inlet (from waterpump)
                          |
               Thermostat housing (thermostat mounts horizontally)
    
Hope this helps you out.
    
    Tom
    
                                                                          

    Hello !!
    
    Edelbrock used to make a intake fore the 455 Buick called B4B. So if you
    don't know if it's for a Ford maby it could be B4B instead of 04B ?
    Shuld have rectangular ports ,termostat hous in front ,no distributor 
    hole and I think 5 bolt at each side .
                                           Peter Lindau/Sweden
 

    
    Actually, Peter may be on to something.  As I recall Edlebrock made
    an F4B intake for the small block Ford, and Caroll Shelby used this
    intake on his GT350's.  Perhaps the 0 is really a "B" for Buick, or "O"
    for Oldsmobile.....I suggest you look in these sections of your
    edlebrock catalog Dean.
    
    Tom

    If it is indeed a Ford intake, then the only remaining possibility
    is for a 383 or 430 motor. Their intake manifold is shaped very much
    like you describe. Most of them had a place for a road draft tube at
    the back of the manifold. 

    I can't stand it any longer!  someone please call edelbrock on the
    PHONE!!!
    Matt

    Ok anyone have the Number for Edlebrock? I looked at a few ads and
    they just listed their address.
    
               Dean

    Call information. You have the address so you must know the city and
    state.

    
    	Hi,
    		I have a couple questions about the ford fuel injection
    	set up. I thought maybe some of you have work with them before.
    
    		First, does the ECM work in the open loop or closed loop
    	normally?
    
    		Second, I know you can get the whole set up piece by piece
    	from Ford, but does anyone sell the complete kit for other appli-
    	cations? ie I have a '69 f100 I would like to inject.
    
    		I have seen an ad for a twin thottle body set up that
    	looked alot like the ford unit. I don't need that much, but what
    	a sweet system!
    
    		Any info on these systems would help.
    
    		Thanks
    
    		Jeff 

    
    This seems like a pretty involved project.  Rather than retrofitting
    an early smallblock, you might be better off going with a late model
    injected 302 from a boneyard.  
    
    The Ford system is port injection, not Throttle body, and it works
    in both an open (warm-up, "limp home") mode, and closed loop (normal 
    post warm-up) mode.  
    
    Tom

    
    		The problem with using a late model 302 is, I'v just
    	put a 351w in the truck. The 351 is in great shape and I 
    	would hate to pull it, again. I have the 351w GT40 manifold
    	from Ford, the manifold fits the '69 351w and there is plenty
    	of room under the hood. Am I not seeing something, something 
    	that would make this tough. The only thing I see is getting 
    	all of the right ECM readings (ie sensor, wiring, vaccum).
    
    		Maybe what I should do is find a wrecked Mustang, and
    	pull or make note of, all the pieces I'll need. 
    
    		How does this system work, and is it adaptable to 
    	high performance mods. Does it repectively read the air intake
    	reguardless of how much? 
    
    		I am installing Ford electronic ignition and some other 
    	creature comforts, off a late model ford. Should I get the 
    	complete wiring harness off here or custom build one?
    
    
    		Big project, but it's going to be nice!!!
    		I promise!!
    
    		Jeff

>    		How does this system work, and is it adaptable to 
>    	high performance mods. Does it repectively read the air intake
>    	reguardless of how much? 


Jeff,

	I can't be of much help but here's what I know. Ford has used two
types of controls for the FI mustangs. The first was the speed density
system, then in 1988(I think 88) the switched to a mass air flow system.
The mass air system is supposed to respond to high performance mods much
better than the speed density system. The mass air system meausures the
amount of incoming air and calculates the appropiate amount of fuel to
add. So, I would think you would want to try and find a mass air system,
it should have a better chance of working with your larger engine than
the  speed density system. Other than a different processor and the
MASS air meter I think the rest of the sensors are the same between the
2. Aftermarket places also make larger MASS air meters that can be adjusted(via
a chip I think) to work with larger fuel injectors.

Well that's all I can think of, good luck.

/Mike

The latest PHR (or Hot Rod) has an ad dor an outfit that sells the wiring 
harness for doing what you want.  I can look it up if you want.  For high
performance Ford Motorsports sells high capacity in the takn fuel pumps and
all kinds of goodies for Mustanf type FI systems.

There are also several companies that make aftermarket FI systems for various
applications.  You may want to give some iof them a call.  I can look up some
info on that too.

Mark

    Another option is to go with the Throttle Body Injection setup from
    Holley. It comes as a complete kit and is adjustable from the cockpit.
    Once it's set properly you don't have to fool with it any more. A
    friend of mine there in the springs has it on a 304 powered CJ5 and
    loves it! You won't even have to change the intake manifold.
    
    If you're set on going with port fuel injection you're in for a bit of
    fabrication unless you want to lay out $2,500 or so for an aftermarket
    port injection setup.
    
    Harry
    

    
    
    		As far as wanting to shell out $2500 for the system,
    	I'm not as worried what I'm spending as to what I'm getting.
    	
        	I'm not saying one is better than the other, but since
    	I have the intake and the body between the air sensor and the
     	intake, I might as well go with the ford unit.
    
    		When you say "I'm in for a bit of fabrication" what 
    	exactly do you mean? I don't forsee any fabrication. This is 
    	the part that worries me.
    
    		Mark, let me know what you can find. I'm committed to
    	this, this far. 
    
    		RE:52?
    		Thank you for helping me understand how that works.
    		It sounds like the Mass Air System is what I'll look
    	for.
    
    		The intake and body(for lack of knowing the real name 
    	for this piece) have been sent off for Extrude Honing. I guess
    	I'll find out how well that works soon enough.
    
    		Now for the Brain Box. Should I use a Ford unit, or 
    	go with an aftermarket product? ofcourse money is an object,
    	but I don't want to be messing around with junk all of the 
    	time. 
    
    		This is going to take along time, I can tell.
    
    		Thanks 
    
    		Jeff
    	

    
    You are going to need a lot of "pieces"  It sounds like what you
    have is the intake manifold and plenum.  These two pieces do NOT a fuel
    injection setup make!  You will need;
    
    1. A mass air flow sensor
    2. A throttle body
    3. A throttle position sensor
    4. A manifold air pressure (MAP) sensor
    5. An Oxygen sensor (and a suitable place in your exhaust system to
       install it)
    6. A coolant temperature sensor
    7. Electric fuel pump
    8. Fuel pressure regulator
    9. Injector fuel rails
    10.Injectors
    11.CPU (Ford EEC-IV unit)
    12.Harness
    13.Air filter assembly
    
    And this is ONLY what I can list off the top of my head.  Doubtless
    there's more stuff, plus all the minor hardware type pieces you will
    require.  Do some more homework on this project!
    
    Tom 

    
    
    		Hi Tom,
    			Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
    
    		I think I am being realistic in wanting to do a 
    	project like this right. There are alot of pieces to get,
    	but I don't think that it is unrealistic to do.
    
    		The list of things that you said I will need looks 
    	complete enough, and I have most of it.
    
    		the things I already have include
    
    		1. plenum
    
    		2. intake
    
    		3. 02 sensor
    
    		4. manifold air pressure sensor
    
    		5. a coolant temperature sensor
    
    		6. electric fuel pump 
    
    		7. fuel pressure regulator
    
    		8. injector rails
    
    		9. injectors
    
    		10. return fuel set up 
    
    		11. air box and filter and various sensors for that
    		    with vaccum diagrams.
    
    		So as it seams I have most of the things I will need,
    	and still haven't spent as much as if I were to have purchased
    	the Holley Four-Jector and intake. Sure the big dollars will be
    	spent on the CPU, harness, and mass air sensor. 
    
    		The thing that made me decide on the Ford system is, 
    	if they are putting this system on thousands of cars and trucks
    	every day, so there should be plenty of spare parts out there.
    
    		Tom, Thanks for the good advice.
    
    		Jeff

    I'm not much of a Ford man, but knowing how they build everything as
    incompatible as possible... Will a 302 intake even bolt onto your 351?
    
    Harry
    

    
    
    		Well yes and no.
    
    		Ford makes an intake for the 351w, with great flow 
    	capabilities, the model number they reffered to is GT40.
    
    		Every thing else is the same.
    
    		Jeff

    
    Well,
    
    I guess you are further along than I realized.  When I priced out an
    aftermarket port injection package (the idea of a smooth running,
    injected 428 CJ *REALLY* appealed to me) the total cost was nearly
    $3,000.  The throttle body was relatively cheap - it was all the other 
    "bits" that added up.  After that, the Holley  Projection 4 looked like
    a bargain!
    
    Tom

    
    
    	With everything I have, and everything still need, I figure
    	I will have between $1300 and $1500 invested without the 
    	Extrude honing. Is'nt that about right Mark?
    
    		Mark found an Accel cpu and wiring harness for 
    	around $800 from Summit new. 
    
    		So far, With shopping around and already have some
    	stuff, I'm getting off pretty cheap.
    
    		Jeff

    I'm very interested in knowing how the extrude honing works out. It
    seems like it would be a very limited process unless you have a perfect
    set of heads to begin with. Most heads have ports that are cast just a
    bit (or even quite a bit!) off center. Extrude honing takes off an even
    amount of material on all sides. Do they have to finish the job by hand
    to get the ports matched correctly?
    
    Harry
    

Harry, the appealing thing about extrude honing is that it tends to
self-regulate, based on the flow problems the stuff encounters as it
wends its way from beginning to end. That is, if a given port has some
turbulence problems in some area or other, the gooey stuff will wear
away proportionally more metal in that area, until the flow smooths out,
at which time the wear rate will normalize with the non-problem areas.

Where you have a cylinder-to-cylinder variation in flow due to basic
design (a la Chevy rat motors and late Ford EFIs), you simply push
the stuff through those particular ports for a longer period of time,
or at higher pressure, or some combination of the two.

Note: "Ports" means head ports, intake and exhaust manifolds - whatever
has a hole that air is supposed to go through :-).

Heads are tougher to do using this process than intake and exhaust
manifolds, becouse you have to protect valve guides, seats, etc. from
being unduly worn away.

I can't believe that extrude honing can be used to fully match ports,
although you can make a case that bolting, say, an intake manifold and
head together and flowing the stuff through the assembly would result in
at least a good, smooth transition from one port to the other. You couldn't
do gasket matching that way, however.

That job can still be done in your garage :-).

Bruce

    
    	For the intake and exhaust port on the head I extended my budget
    	a little. I talked to the folks at Summit. The have the Dart II
    	head assembled for a little more than $900 a pair. When I get the
    	intake and plenum back, and heads arrive, I'll spend sometime at
    	the flow bench a friend has and work out the port flow.
    
    		One thing I thought about is charting the difference
    	between the non extrude honed intake and plenum and the honed
    	ones I have. I'll chart the flow on the Dart head also.
    
    		Jeff

Jeff,
  This week marked the 6th week of waiting on my Extrude Honed manifold from
Kaufmann Products.  I ordered it under the agreement that it was to arrive in
about 2 weeks - a point I discussed at length with them so as to minimize
down time for my car.  I've waited patiently, and called once a week.  Each
subsequent week, though, it seemed less and less like they heard of me.

Anyhow, this past Monday I called and they said they have no idea when it will
be done; hopefully sometime this week, but they have been busy at SEMA. 
Ah, OK; this week SEMA, last week it was the shuttle launch was delaying the 
delivery of my aerospace technology inspired hose job.  I mean hone job.

Tuesday I told them to cancel my order.  Suprise!, they already sent it out and
would have to charge me shipping and a 20% restocking fee if I cancelled.  Total
sleezeball.  I spent 20 minutes on the phone with a true sleaze-artist that 
identified himself as "CJ".  I mostly stayed on the phone because of fascination
and awe with the quality and quantity of well-HONED( :-) ) lies CJ dished out.  

The point is, that it may be worth your while to "cancel" your order if you
want your intake back in a timely fashion.

I purposely didn't send my intake to them because I felt the potential for
rookage was high.

BTW, I'm not criticizing Kaufmann Products!  The whole delay was CLEARLY my own 
doing - though I must admit that now the logic seems a little fuzzy.  Maybe
I'll call CJ back and ask him to explain again :-) :-O :-) :-) :-) :-).
  { Insert long boisterous laugh here }
Too Much,

  Eric

    
    
    Last weekend I came across an old air cleaner. I believe
    it is a pontiac unit from the mid sixties. It is about
    12 to 14 inches in diameter, about 2 inches in height.
    The side has multiple rows of opennings. Believe that it
    is for a single four barrel. The top is chrome with a 
    painted base plate. Any help in identifying the application
    that this was used on would be appreciated.
    
    
    Thanks.
    
    
    Dave

      It sounds like the air cleaner housing used on mid-sixties
    Pontiac 421's.  I think 2+2's had them as well as some other 
    full size Poncho's with the high perf engine.  It would fit
    a Carter AFB if that is the case.  If it is in really good shape
    it is worth a lot of money as repro's are going for well over
    $100.00 .
    
    Rich

    
    
    Rich,
    
       Thanks for the info. I had a funny feeling
    that it was worth holding onto a couple of
    years ago.
    
    Dave

    
    Hello Gang,
    
    After a few months of "semi-serious" hinting, my wife (Family CFO)
    has given me the green light to buy a Holley Pro-jection 4 for my `69 
    Cobrajet.  I must admit the idea has appeal;
    
    Better cold starts
    Smoother idle
    Improved economy
    Better throttle response
    Fewer fouled plugs
    Etc.
    
    I realize that throttle body injection is less desireable than port
    injection, but the cost is reasonable at ~$850 vs. ~$2,500 for
    aftermarket port injection.  Plus, the Holley set-up doesn't require
    wholesale changes to the car, and can be concealed under the OEM air
    cleaner.  
    
    Anyone have experience (first, second or third hand) with this product?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Tom 
                                      

Tom,

There was a recent article on FI systems made for the SBC.  They tested a bunch
of FI systems and the one that made he most HP?  Yep, you guessed it, the Holley
Pro-jection 4.  I don't remember what intake manifold was used in the test but,
the Holley system beat out all of the TPI/port systems.

Mark

    re: .69
    
    Tom,
    
    I have one that I got (used) from my brother.  He loved it because of
    how easy it was to adjust, and the wide range of adjustments possible.
    
    He ran it on his race car with a slightly warmed over 455 Olds engine 
    with no problems. It improved his E.T.s by about .5 second on the 1/8th 
    mile.  
    
    I got it because it is somewhat limited in fuel flow, and it couldn't
    keep up with the highly modified 427 Chevy engine he replaced the 455 Olds
    with.  FWIW, Holley claims it will work on any engine that is making 600hp
    or less...  I sorta doubt the HP claim.
    
    I plan to install it on a slightly warmed over 427, with the hope of
    improving exhaust emissions, and possibly fuel economy.  
    
    The Pro-jection is a nifty package, and looks like it would take a
    weekend or two to install.  (to do it right)  If you wanted to jury-rig
    it, it could probably be put on for a quick test in an afternoon.
    
    Tom
    

    Do any of youy think a factory fuel pump is capable spinning a modified
    SB Chevy over 6K in the upper gears?
    
    I have modified just about everything in the car except the fuel pump.
    
    Talking the the guy at NewEngland Speed, he seems to think that there
    is no way the pump is sufficient. He also was trying to talk me into
    a regulator and fuel pressure gauge.
    
    In current condition, the car is no slouch. I just want to get the most
    out of it without going unnecessarily overboard.
    
    I'm sure that I don't need a race style pump that pums out 115 GPH and
    maintains 10 pounds of pressure, considering a stock pump is somewhere
    at only about 50 GPH at 3.5 pounds of pressure. 
    
    Maybe somewhere in the middle may be a good compromize. What do you
    think? That way a regulator may not be necessary.
    
    Mark 
     

    
    I don't think you will get what your after with the stock pump.
    I'm not turning over 5500 RPM and I know I need more pump.
    
    I'd go for a higher volume with the regulator and gauge.
    
    Without the gauge you won't KNOW what pressure you have.
    
    Without the regulator you won't be able to MAINTAIN the 6-7 psi you
    need.
    
    Without a higher volume pump you won't GET 6-7 psi to regulate.
    
    Edlebrock makes a nice pump that delivers 125gph for about $40 I think.
    I'm not up on the costs of regulators etc.
    
    Someone just came out with an approved gauge for inside vehicle use.
    It incorporates a fuel isolator so you don't toast your cookies by
    accident!
    
    /tb/
    

    Ditto...
    
         Not exactly apples to apples but on my old Mustang with a
    new, but OEM pump I would run out of fuel at about 5400 rpms and
    the car would just stumble at that rpm until it was shifted or
    shut down. BTW this was a 351c with a mild cam, headers and intake.
    
    
                       Dean
    
                         

    re: last few
    
    say I do buy a regulator and gauge, where do you mount such instuments?
    
    I definately don't want to mount a gauge up on my hood and paying the
    expense and the hassle of running one to the dash for the amount of
    time I would be looking at it really doesn't make much sense to me.
    
    But if I do run a regulator you would need a gauge to adjust the
    regulator. Right??  They do make an inline gauge that's pretty
    inexpense. With this I could only adjust pressure at idle, right??
    Is this good enough?
    
    Looks like I may be shelling out more money than I first thought.
    
    
    Mark

As an alternative to another mechanical pump, how about an electric pump?  I
run a Carter electric "Street" pump feeding my 327.  I have spun it under load
to 6300 rpm with no fuel delivery problems.  I do not run a regulator.  The 
pump is rated at 7psi and delivers something like 5.n psi @60 gph (or something
like that).

Mark

    I'l heard some negitive things about the inexpensive electric pumps.
    About not being reliable and such. Although I wouldn't rule one out.
    
    From what I understand about the electic pumps they should be installed
    toward the rear of the car near the tank, and they need the oil
    pressure relay switch.
    
    Mark, can you descibe how yours is installed and how difficult it was?
    
    Anybody else heard of the negitives descibed above about electic pumps?
    
    
    Mark
    

Mark

The pump was really easy to install.  I mounted the pump near the rearend 
'pumpkin" in the center of the vehicle.  Enen in the Vega there is plenty
of room for a pump.

First you mount the bracket using 2 bolts.  Then you mount the pump to the 
bracket using the 3 isolaters and nuts provided, next connect up the wiring 
(hot and ground), and finally connect up the input/output fuel lines.  I did
not run my pump wiring through a pressure switch.  That was shown as an 
optional step and I did not deem it necessary in my case.

After locating the pump, I fabricated a 3/8" hard line from the pump to the
engine compartment.  I run a Holley 570 cfm dual feed carb.  I mounted the
dual feed fuel line backwards and run my fuel supply in from the rear of the
engine.  This accomplishes two things.  It keeps the fuel supply line away 
from hot exhaust components and it is more astetically pleasing (to me) since
you so not see the fuel line running up the front of the entine to the carb.

As to the reliability of an electric pump.  I have never heard anything bad
about either the Holley or Carter pump.  They are both rebuildable too.  BTW,
the Carter pump is quieter than the Holley pump.  Isolater kits are available
for both pumps if you want to quiet them down ewven more.

I hope this helps.

Mark 

    
        The capacity of a stock pump is really not the question.....What
    happens with most stock pumps is that they suffer from pushrod float
    (-; Meaning that there is no way with the stock diaphram spring, that
    the pushrod/pump lever assembly can follow the eccentric on the cam at
    high RPM. You'd be better off if you had a friend operating the pump by
    hand.
    
    -john

    I am looking for some info that to this point has eluded all.
    
    
     Does anyone know the CFM rating on the following Carter AVS carbs.
    
    
     1)  Carter AVS 4682s [used on 69 "383"]
    
     2)  Carter AVS 4618s [used on 69 "440"]
    
    
    
    
    to date no one has been able to supply this info. Any help would be 
    
    appreciated.

......but I believe they were rated at 750 cfm, in all applications,
*including* the 340.

Bruce

PS - It's possible the rating was more than 750 cfm, but *not* less. Dim
memory says that Carter used a different measuring setup than Holley at the
time (Holley was more conservative), and may have called it 825 cfm or so.
Somebody did an article and said it was 750 by Holley standards.

I seem to remember mine as being in the 615 to 670 range.  I have that info 
somewhere.  I'll have to remember to look it up.

I remember being quite amazed at the low volume when I was first made aware 
of it.

Maybe I'm thinking of the Thermo-Quad, or somesuch?

Check it if you're able. I'm now interested, myself.

Bruce

Have you any of you folks seen a price for the new Edelbrock direct port
fuel injection system?  I have seen it mentioned in a couple of different
magazines and it is in the latest Edelbrock catalog but, none of the parts
places have it advertised yet.

Thanks,
Mark

    I have a question... I have a 1978 Chrysler Cordoba 400 CID with a 
    Carter Thermoquad... I would like to know what other Carbs I could 
    use on this.  I do not like the thermoquad, and it is in sad shape
    so I would like to bolt in another.  In a previous 400 in a Dodge
    Police car, I had another carb, but that was back in 1976, and I 
    have forgotten all about it, except I could tear it down and rebuild 
    it in the time it takes to disconnect the TQ.
    
    I do not have any numbers on the TQ... it just says "TQ" on the upper
    plate.
    
    Thanks in Advance.
    
    Dave

Dave,

If your car is mostly street driven, you may want to take a look at the 
Edelbrock 750cfm carb.  They seem to work quite well and will certainly
use less fuel than an equivalent Holley.  I believe that the Edelbrock
is based on the old Carter AFB.

I know a couple of people that run the Edelbrock carb and they are very
pleased with them.

Mark

    Any new info on the size of the AVS carbs mentioned in .80
    
    
    The reason I'm asking is that I have a 69-440 with the AVS. I don't
    know whether to rebuild the present carb, or replace. When/if I replace
    I will also be replacing the stock intake with the Edelbrock Performer.
    
    
    
    Mike D

I can't seem to find the passage where the CFM ratings are listed.  I did, 
however, find a tech article where the *upgrades* are  specified as an 
after-market manifold with 750 or 780 cfm carburetors  (both carbs are 
specified as upgrades).  (Tech article is part of the high performance 
bulletin package.  I have both the 1 1/2" thick Direct Connection book and 
many of the original data sheets that are included in the book.  The info, 
from what I remember, is jotted down on one of those tech info sheets in 
the handwriting of a Mr. Sox.  (We sponsored two Sox & Martin clinics)  The 
problem is, I can't find my loose leaf binder with all the original info 
sheets.  All I can find is the book w/out the handwritten clinic notes.

I'm going to try and find the Holley OEM ratings for the standard (not 
Magnum) versions of the 383 and 440 motors.  That'll give you an idea of 
what cfm the Magnum motors used.  I have that info buried on the south wall 
of the garage.

It's uncharacteristically low, BTW.

Also, I rebuilt the AVS on my '68 GTX and was able to get the kit off 
the shelf at Auto Machine in Maynard.  (about 4 years ago, I think)

    
    I has some early 60s MOPAR big blocks, mostly 413s and 426w, and seem
    to remember them to have the 625 cfm Carter. It always seemes small to
    me. 
    
    FWIW
    
    db
    

    Thanks Mark??
    
    Edelbrock has a 750 CFM Carb to fit my 400 but there is an adapter
    plate also.
    
    Carb.  No. 1407
    
    Adapt. no. 2696
    
    Price for the carb is 229 and change.  the adapter runs about 
    30.  Not bad to get rid of the TQ.
    
    Thanks again.
    
    Dave

    
    I called the MOPAR hotline the other day to ask about the new 360 H.O.
    engine. While I had the guy on the phone I asked about the Carter AVS
    used on 69 383 + 440 magnum engines. He stated the 383 carb was between
    625-650 cfm and the 440 carb was 725-750 cfm.
    
    
    MOPARS ARE STILL FOREVER

I yanked the engine out of the Vega to do some minor work and well, one thing 
led to another. I will be getting my ported heads back this week and I now find 
myself wanting to port match my intake manifold.

I have a die grinder but do not know where to buy the (carbide?) burrs and/or
stones that are needed to do the job.  Are these items something that I can
get at the local Sears store or do I have to order them from Eastwood or 
somewhere else?

Thanks,
Mark

    
     There is a place way out on east Platte near Powers called
    Tool-a-Rama. They have a large selection of hand tools and may very
    well have what your looking for. Their number is 597-1962. Failing
    that, American Speed, C-Fab, or Stoopid Shops may be able to provide
    the tools, or at least tell you who might.
    
    Tony
    

    Mark, I picked up a nice set of carbide burrs from Grainger (the folks
    with the HUGE catalog) for $120 when I was doing the heads and intake
    porting on the ThunderTruck(tm) engine. The latest catalog I have shows
    that they have a store in the Springs at 610 Pope's Bluff Tr,
    719-598-9500. It lists a set of 8 burrs for $117.94.
    
    These things will flat remove some metal in a hurry, but you'll need
    sanding rolls to get a smooth finish after using the burrs. For that, I
    ordered the porting kit from Eastwood (and Eastwood has sent me a
    catalog once a month ever since!!!). 
    
    Harry
    

I am going to be replacing the vacuum secondary Holley 750 with a mechanical
secondary Holley of the same cfm rating.  My question is, how do the new
polished 4010 series Holleys compare to the traditional 4150/60 carbs from
a power producing standpoint?  Do any of you folks know someone who has used
a 4010 series carb on the strip, on the dyno, or have you read of any
comparisons?

Thanks,
Mark

The phone number for the Holley Technical Assistance Line has changed.  The new
number is 502-781-9741.  The line is available 7:00 - 11:30 and 12:30 - 15:30
Central time.

For the first time ever, I was actually able to get through !

Mark

When I dynoed my 327, the dyno guy suggested that I replace my 750 vacuum
secondary carb with a 750 mechanical secondary "double pumper".  I finally went
down and bought that 750 dp.  Last night, I took it down to the shop to run it
on the dyno mule to get it setup correctly before bolting it on my engine.

It was then that I noticed that it had a 4-corner idle system.  I have never
owned a carb with a 4-corner idle system.  What advantage does a 4 corner system
have over a regular 2 jet idle system?  

Thanks,
Mark

I picked up a book on supercharging the other night and it says that when
bolting on a supercharger, enrichen the jetting by 10%.

On a Holley, with it's jet numbering system, how many jet sizes represent
10%?  I corrently have 71 primary and 76 secondary.

Thanks,
Mark

    A 71 jet has a drill size of .0076 inch so 10% would take you to
    either a 73 - 74 jet.
    
    A 76 jet (.0084) - 10% would be a 78 jet.
    
    Mike

    Mike, dumb question.  Why didn't they make a 71 jet with a .0071 drill
    size, a 76 jet with a .0076 drill size, etc.  That would have made it
    easier to calculate what jets would be needed to increase or decrease.
    I suppose it could have something to do with the drag on the fluid
    caused by the roughness of the sides so one needs a larger drilled hole
    to gain an "effective" area equal to blah, blah, blah.
    Is there a good book on this?  I have a Holly 600 CFM which I want to
    rebuild sooner or later.  I would like to learn how it works first.
    Thanks, Wayne

    Wayne,
    
    I don't know why they (holley) do what they did.  Some good books 
    are "Holley Induction Systems" by HP (?) and another book I like is
    "Super Tuning Holley Carburetors" by Alex Walordy.
    
    Mike

    Since there is no fuel system note this seemed as a good a place as
    any.
    
    I've been slowly modifying my '85 non-computerized Quadrajet to improve 
    both mileage and power on a 350 chevy. The stock #72 jet with a #48N 
    metering rod is a little lean, creating an off-idle stumble and a slight 
    flat spot while accelerating. The idle ports were drilled to .095 in 
    smooth out the idle. I changed to a #74 jet with the #48 metering rod. 
    This eliminated the off idle stumble but created an overly rich condition 
    and reduced mileage by 4 mpg. I'm going to change to #73 jet with the
    #48N metering rod to see how this works. I'd like to try the #72 jet
    with a #46N metering rod but cannot determine the GM part number. 
    According to GM the newer meter rods (1980 and up) do not follow the
    same part number scheme as before and as such you cannot just
    substitute the last 2 digits. Example: #48N part number is 17056948
    old style part numbering would have made 46N 17056946. Does anyone
    know what the 46N metering rod number is? The Rochester book does 
    have any info.  Looks like I may have to call the Carb Shop.
    
    Chris 

I am in the process of upgrading my fuel delivery system.  I am replumbing the
line from the fuel pump, back by the fuel tank, up to the carb using Earl's -8
stainless braided hose.  

I am also using the correct AN hose ends and AN to pipe adaptors.  I used teflon
tape on the pipe thread adaptors.  Is there a need to use teflon tape (or, some
kind of sealant) on the AN fittings or do they seal fine dry?

Thanks,
Mark

    I used teflon on all my fuel connections where I've used breaided hose.
    Without the tape I had minor leaks. 

    You only need teflon tape on the pipe threads.  AN fittings are
    tapered on the end so they will seal.  When I was building my car I
    call earl's and asked the same questions.
    
    Phil

    
    AN type fittings do not need teflon tape because the sealing surface is
    not the threads. It is the flare on the ends. Teflon tape is a "thread
    sealer" and used on pipe type connectons.
    
    For less cost you could use 1/2" aluminum tubing with AN connectors on
    the ends and have more flow, a safer installation and you could buy a
    double flare tool in the process. Moroso sells a 25' section for about
    $30. I'm sure Earl is more proud of his hose than that! I belive that
    you should use solid line whenever you can because it is safer and
    easier to maintain. Besides, solid line, bent with a tubing bender, looks
    neater than the braided stuff with a bunch of tie wraps to hold it in
    place.
    
    Be careful where you run the new line. Do not let it contact any moving
    suspention parts or exhaust. Also be aware that the NHRA rule book
    states that the fuel line must be shielded in the flywheel area so that
    a flywheel/flexplate explosion will not sever the fuel line and that
    fuel blocks cannot be mounted on the firewall.
    
    A nickel's worth of free advice.
    
    Don Berry
    

Thanks for the information about the AN fittings.  No teflon tape is what I
thought but, I wasn't sure.

Yes, tis true that SS hose is quite dear.  At $4.99 a foot, Earl is very proud
of his product!  The fittings are not that bad though.

The reason that I picked it is to hopefully delay the onset of vapor lock
related problems.  You see, on the Vega, space tends to be real tight,
especially in the engine compartment and the heating of the fuel supply line is
a reality.  I am hoping that the thicker wall of the SS hose (I can't use
regular rubber hose due to NHRA rules) and inside diameter of 7/16" will delay
the onset of vaporlock.  Faulty logic perhaps but, maybe it will make a
difference.  Besides, it looks neat and the tech inspectors won't whine.  :-)

I have the fuel line on the firewall problem now and will be removing it so that
the car stands a better chance of passing it's next tech.

Mark

    What happens if you do run teflon tape on that type of fitting?  I used 
    it where the dual inlet goes into the carb, and where the fuel filter is 
    spliced into the line from the fuel pump to the fuel rail.  Maybe I'm not 
    using AN type fittings but pipe fittings.   

    Mark,
    
         On my BB Torino I used foam pipe insulation around the fuel lines
    to keep them cool (cooler) and help prevent that dreaded vapor lock
    
             Dean

    
    The biggest risk of using teflon tape is from small pieces getting
    lodged in smaller passages. 
    
    When I ran the new line on my bracket car, I ran it on the outside of
    the frame rails to avoid most of the engine/exhaust heat. Where the
    line passes the headers on it's way to the carbs I used a piece of
    aluminum as a heat shield and some foam insulation from an air
    conditioner to insulate it.
    
    db
    

Thanks for the feedback about plumbing my fuel system.  I ended up plumbing it
with about 2/3 Moroso aluminum fuel line and then the front 1/3 was done with
Russell #6 stainless hose and AN fittings.  Those fittings are very nice.  They
flat just don't leak!

Mark

    AN fittings are aluminum - anodized red or blue usually. Pipe fittings
    are usually either brass or cast. AN fittings need no tape, pipe
    fittings do.
    
    Stan

>    AN fittings are aluminum - anodized red or blue usually. Pipe fittings
>    are usually either brass or cast. AN fittings need no tape, pipe
>    fittings do.

Whether they're AN fittings or not, if they are cut for pipe thread, you 
need to tape them.  i.e. the 1/2 NPT-to-#8 fittings I have screwed into my 
hemi manifold to carry water to the thermostat need to be taped where they 
screw into the manifold because it's 1/2" NPT and the cast aluminum doesn't 
thread well.  Even though it's a pipe thread and both pieces are aluminum, 
it won't seal properly unless it's taped.

The #8 AN fittings, however, seal at the flare just like a brake line or 
inverted flare fuel line.

    Agreed. It slipped my mind that there are adapters for pipe to AN.
    
Stan

I'm still working on getting my '63 split window to running the way I want 
it, and in going through the AFB it came with, we found a bunch of things
that contributed to it's poor performance: 

	1) The Carter AFB model L3721 SB it came with is the incorrect Carter 
	   number for this application and it should be a 3461S. (Any idea 
	   what the L3721 SB was originally for?)

	2) The choke rod mechanism was incorrectly assembled by a previous 
	   owner not allowing the mechanical portion of the secondaries to open

	3) The vacuum secondary butterfly counterweights were too heavy for 
	   the 327 application. (milled/lightened them so they open sooner)

	4) The throttle linkage was adjusted to the carb (when it was wrong) 
	   so that the throw wouldn't pull the secondaries open after the 
	   choke linkage secondary lock out problem was fixed.

	5) The jets in this carb are a little larger than spec for this 
	   application.

We fixed most of the above except the jets, and it runs 1000% better. Aside 
from the fact that the secondaries actually come into play now, they come in 
quick, at about 2700 rpm...    :^) x 100 

I'm now in the process of looking for the correct jets, and would appreciate 
any help in tracking them down. What I'm looking for is:

		.099 Metering Jets

		.063 Main Jets

Also, if anyone has a 3461S AFB collecting dust in their garage that they'd 
like to trade or let go for a reasonable cost, please let me know. I have a 
larger AFB sitting on my shelf (no model number with me right now) that I'd 
be willing to trade toward it...


Thanks,

Jack

I believe the Edlebrock carbs use the same jets and metering rods so one of 
their carb tuning kits ought to do the trick for you.

They're pretty easy to come by mail-order or your local pusher can get one 
for you.

    You can buy a strip kit from Carter which includes a number of
    different size metering rods, jets and inlets. I'm pretty sure that
    all AFB use interchangable parts. I'd have to look in my Carter book to
    find out for sure.
    
    Chris

    Is there a formula to match a the CFM of a carb to an application
    or a way to calculate how much air an engine can flow?
    
    A friend is building the 455CI in his 442. He is using the an
    Edlebrock mainifold (I think a torker II) which claims the powerband
    is 2500-6500 rpm> The cam kit has a matching power band and includes
    hydraulic roller lifters and roller rockers. I negelcted to write
    down the numbers on the cam, but can ask again. It seem very aggressive
    when he told me. He's putting in new SS valves, TRW forged pistons, 
    Crower Rods (I think), its been bored .030". Stock crank. He plans to 
    use a 700CFM holley carb and he's concerned that he might need
    more. My seat of the pants feeling is that he doesn't have enough
    carb but I don't really know. I offered to ask "the experts".
    
    Any advice would be appreciated.
    -Thanks
    -Fred  

    When calculating "engine as air pump", use the following:
    	   RPM * CUBIC INCHES
    CFM =  ------------------
    	         3456
    
    So, for an Olds 460 (roughly), at 6500 rpm (which is plenty high, for
    an Olds), you get 865 cfm, *assuming 100% volumetric efficiency*.
    Assuming this is a race engine, running with open headers, you might
    get something around 85% VE at 6500, assuming the power peak is around
    6000 rpm. Note that the engine isn't operating at peak efficiency at
    6500 rpm (it's at maximum efficiency is at peak *torque*), so 85% VE is
    probably pretty close.
    
    Therefore, you multiply VE by the calculated cfm, and you get 735 cfm.
    
    The carb is, indeed, too small.
    
    Your buddy needs a 750, minimum, and I'd personally go with an 800 cfm
    carb, again assuming it's a race motor. Note that carbs are flow rated
    at a certain amount of restriction (something like 22" of water), so an
    800 cfm carb would be the best overall choice, IMO.
    
    If it's a *street* motor, it's simply too much, IMO, and your friend
    will sell it within a year. That said, however, a 700 cfm carb will
    deliver better driveability, and, running through the mufflers, VE will
    likely fall to something below 80% at 6500 rpm, so the 700 will flow
    enough, anyway.
    
    Bruce

    Thanks Bruce!
    
       I'll pass this along. He "doesn't plan to have it on the street
    much" so I imagine that he'll move to a bigger carb. 
    -Fred
     

    
    	Sounds like a photocopy. I built the same motor, edelbrock torquer
    	intake, roller rokers, mondello cam. have an 850 double pumper and
    	depending on how tight of I stall I put on there are times it even
    	needed a bit more. PS There's LOOOOOOTS! of torque in this one so
    	dont go any higher than 3.73 in the rear.
    
    						Jeff Scherf

    Jeff, are you saying that, at full throttle *at stall*, you think you
    needed more carburetor than an 850?
    
    Bruce
     

    
    		It was a bit starved at open throttle. By stall I mean I
    	went from a 3500 RPM torqueconverter stall to a tighter 2800.
    	Also a warning to your friend; at high RPM that the OLDs will empty
    	the factory oil pan if he puts in a good quality high volume pump.
    	You need at least the early Toronado 455 oil pan or (Easier to get) 
    	an aftermarket 8 or 9 quart pan from say milodon. You may want to
    	put your buddy on to Mondello Performance in California. He puts
    	out a catalgue of Oldsmobile only HO parts. If you want to leave
    	me your mailstop I can send you a copy of my own.
    
    						Cheers, Jeff

    Jeff, it sounds as if you had a fuel problem, meaning either an
    incorrect jet size, or a mixture problem at low and medium rpm because
    of reduced air velocity through that big 850.
    
    If you had changed to, say, a 700 or 750 on your engine (running through
    the mufflers), you would have noticed somewhat better power at low and
    medium engine speeds, at any throttle, and you *may* have noticed a
    slightly reduced pull at 5000 rpm and higher, at full throttle.
    
    Bruce