Conference napalm::musclecars

Tom,

I use Mallory 8mm SpiralCore wires in the Vega.  Things are very tight 
around the headers and ignition wire to header contact is a given.  Granted, 
the combo only has 300 miles on it but I have not roasted any wires or boots 
yet.  Hopefully the Thermo-Tec will prevent anything from getting cooked.

Mark

    I've got Accel wires with about 3000 miles.  This is with cheap
    headers, better ones may give more clearance.  I've had no problems so
    far, and installed a wire loom to better situate the wires.
    Matt

    A previous Blazer that I had went through plug wires about every six
    months. Even Mallory Pro Wires, history, twice in one year (second set
    replaced under warranty). I finally went back to the stock GM wires and
    didn't have any more problems. (They even cost less than the supposedly
    high performance wires!)
    
    The wires never looked burned or anything. The heat would just dry them
    out to the point that the truck would start misfiring, especially
    during wet weather. Raising the hood at night with the engine running
    would treat you to a fantastic light show! Purple sparks jumping here
    and there and even a nice corona along some sections of wire! Oh yeah,
    the headers would also be glowing a dull cherry red if I'd been on the
    highway for any length of time. It was HOT under there! Too bad they
    didn't have Thermo-Tec wrap back then. :-(
    
    Harry
    

    
    I need some input on plug selection for my Big Block Chev. The engine
    will be used for drag racing and has 13:1 compression, roller cam, MSD
    7AL-2 with crank trigger and timing computer, cast iron heads (LS7) and
    will drink only racing fuel. If anybody has any sugestions or experence
    please let me know.
    
    Thanks,  :)
    
    Don Berry

    I know some racers use different plug types for different cylinders on
    the Big Block Chevy because of cooling differences, and because the
    heads and manifolds flow differently to the cylinders.
    Matt

    I was reading in the Tech Tips section of the last Summit catalog
    that if you have a big cammed moter and low compression that you
    should curve you distributer so that it goes to full centifical
    advance just off idle.
    
    Any comments on this??
    
    If this is true maybe I should try it. Having a 350 with 9.0 comp.
    with a Comp Cams 280H cam and a factory distributer curve.
    
    Mark

>
>    I was reading in the Tech Tips section of the last Summit catalog
>    that if you have a big cammed moter and low compression that you
>    should curve you distributer so that it goes to full centifical
>    advance just off idle.
>    
>    Any comments on this??
>    
>    If this is true maybe I should try it. Having a 350 with 9.0 comp.
>    with a Comp Cams 280H cam and a factory distributer curve.
>    

Well, I did that very thing to my 440 w/ 10.5:1 (back when you could get 
real gasoline, not this EPA stuff) and the car ran heaps better.

I removed the heavy spring so that I had full centrifugal advance by the 
time the motor reached 1,000 rpm.  It went like stink and was consistently 
1/4 second faster than the competition on any given Sunday.  Of course I 
sidestepped the clutch @ 1,800 rpm and whacked the throttle just as the 
engine started to feel the resistance of the tires gripping the strip.  
This left me w/ less than 6 feet of spinning street tires and got me the 
advance substantially sooner than having the factory curve active.  My top 
speed was always slower than every one else's, but top speed doesn't win 
drag races.

    That's great!!  You know you can't allways believe what you read.
    
    thanks,
    
    Mark

    I put a kit to recurve my HEI dist on my 350 SB and got good results.
    
    It's not quite as quick as Skips. Mine get's it all in at about
    3000RPM. 
    
    /tb/
    

I made some Vericom runs to optimize initial timing on my GT40 equipped
stang.  The data is thought provoking in light of the current discussion about
initial timing advance.  In particular, the notion of dumping in a lot of
initial time quickly, but not increasing total advance.  The following
information makes for great brain food; but its a meal, and not a snack.

Here's the results over a 2nd gear WOT 35-55mph interval:
                                                  
Initial                                                      
Timing		Time  Distance 	Max G/Speed/RPM	  Max HPP/Speed/RPM	
---------------------------------------------------------------------
14.5 BTDC     	2.17	145   	 0.536/40.5/3822    0.064/53.6/5058
14.5 BTDC	2.17	145   	 0.499/42.5/4011    0.065/50.0/4719     
---------------------------------------------------------------------
13.0 BTDC	2.21	146	 0.525/41.0/3869    0.064/54.1/5106
13.0		2.25	150	 0.497/46.6/4398    0.065/52.9/4992
---------------------------------------------------------------------
17.0 BTDC	2.22	147	 0.549/42.8/4039    0.065/51.4/4851
17.0		2.19	144	 0.560/41.8/3945    0.067/52.6/4964
17.0		2.23	149	 0.520/44.3/4181    0.066/50.6/4775     
---------------------------------------------------------------------
15.0 BTDC	2.12	141	 0.554/43.6/4115    0.065/52.3/4936
15.0		2.11	141	 0.562/43.7/4124    0.067/54.1/5106     

The RPM is calculated from speed assuming 5% tire slip while pulling G's in
this range.  Its not perfect, but I believe its a close approximation.
                                                            
I started gathering data (:-)) at 5.45 pm and finished at 7:15 pm.
The weather at start was - 63 degrees F, 30.22" Hg, 49% Humidity, 6-14 MPH SE
wind.  At 7:30 - 57 degrees F, 30.22" Hg, 49% Humidity, 2-8 MPH SE wind.  All
runs were made on the exact same stretch of road, ah asphalt that is.  The 
Vericom unit remained in one position from start to finish, all electric
accessories were turned off.  The consistency of the data matches the
consistency of the conditions. I never heard any ping, and the plugs looked
fine after making all the runs.

Included below is a note entered by Bruce Augenstein last year in the
late model musclecar note.  It provides insight into the current discussion.
===========================================================================
Late-model 5.0 EFI Mustangs are said to run best with 37-38 degrees spark
advance total, which is the maximum one might expect on highest-octane
unleaded premium while avoiding detonation. Typically, one gets to this
figure by setting the initial timing at 13-14 degrees, with an idling engine
at normal operating temperature, and spud connector out. The Ford EEC-IV
module will then kick the timing up by another 23-24 degrees as engine speed
climbs, and all the advance is in by about 3000 rpm or so. If you've read this
paragraph so far while nodding to yourself, you're someone I'd like input from.

The problem is as follows:

With initial spark advance set at 14 degrees BTDC, our car shows a rapid
spark advance (spud connector *in*) to 37-38 degrees by roughly 1500 rpm.
At somewhere near 2000 rpm, the spark begins to *retard* slightly, and, at
around 2800 rpm, retards more rapidly, so that, at 3000 rpm and up, we're
running at about 30 degrees total. Setting initial advance at 22 degrees
gives about 46 degrees at 1500, retarding to 38 degrees at 3000 and up. With
22 degrees initial using Mobil Premium, the car pings moderately in 3rd and 4th,
starting at around 3900-4000 rpm. In 3rd, the car will stop pinging by around
4800 or so (haven't taken 4th that high). At 20 degrees initial, there is light
ping, and at 18 degrees (about 34 degrees total), there is no ping at all.
I don't know of anyone else who can run 18 degrees initial with impunity in
these cars.

We have conducted these tests with two high-quality timing lights, and have
compared the results with Eric's '88 speed-density car, which shows a smooth,
progressive advance to 38 degrees total (at 3000 rpm) with 14 degrees initial,
and which runs on the marginal edge of pinging at these settings. As far as we
know, the only difference between the '88 GT and our car is the airflow sensing
paraphernalia.

Our dragstrip results tend to support our no-load timing observations, inasmuch
as the car doesn't seem to run as freely to 5500 rpm as most 5.0s, and the
quarter-mile speeds tend to be lackluster, with 95.5 mph being the best with a
short serpentine belt, and 94.5 with the normal belt. We have not raced the car
with anything more than 13.5 degrees initial, since we just discovered the
problem over the weekend, but will run this week with 18-20 degrees and Sunoco
Ultra, just as a check.                                                    
                                                                           
A call to Ford Motorsports brought a directive to bring the car in to our  
dealer, and we will do so, but we'd like as much data as possible beforehand,
and the shop manuals haven't arrived yet.                                  
                                                                           
Has anyone checked total timing on a mass-airflow ('89 or later) 5.0? If so,
how did the advance curve look? Any other input? Why is it retarding, and  
screwing up high-rpm punch?                                                
===============================================================================
Since Bruce wrote this message, I have converted my car to Mass Airflow.
As a follow-up, it turns out that the above advance scenario is intentional. 
Speed density 5.0's operate differently then Mass Airflow cars - as described
above.  The above behavior applies to a car under no load; I don't have the 
means of verifying the timing retard while under load.  Maybe if someone has
the new Crane Interceptor computer, they could verify the advance curve under
load and post the results here?  Without that information, I'm guessing that
the advance behaves the same way under heavy throttle.  The Mass Air 5.0's     
don't have any means of measuring manifold pressure, so if load is          
factored in, it is done so by throttle position and RPM.               
                                                         
Mass Airflow 5.0 Mustangs were initially introduced in California during the
1988 year.  This change supposedly provided better emission control, and better
fuel economy.  In 1989 and up, all Mustangs are equipped with Mass Airflow 
sensors.  Ford SVO offers an upgrade kit for 1986-1988 cars not originally
equipped with Mass Air.  The change becomes critical for highly modified
engines and good streetability.  1986-1988 Speed Density measurement cars
calculates inferred airflow from throttle position, rpm, manifold pressure, and
a calibration factor based on the pumping characteristics of a stock engine.
Mass Airflow equipped cars measure airflow directly by regulating the
temperature of a hot wire by electrical current, which is proportional to
airflow.

Eric
                                           

    
    
    Can anybody recommend a spark plug, brand and heat range for my motor?
    
    Chevy 350, smog heads, 9.0 comp. CompCams 280H, headers, Edelbrock
    performer intake and carb.
    
    I have been running factory recommended plugs, AC R45's with good
    success, but would like to know if others would offer any performance
    gains.
    
    From what I read, they say you should run a step or two colder plug
    if your motor has been modified with performance parts.
    
    I understand what a hot plug and cold plug do and what their
    differences are, but how does the manufacturer label the heat range?
    In other words, for AC is a R44 hotter or colder than a R45?
    
    I know this isn't CarBuffs but please don't recommend SplitFire plugs
    unless someone has REALLY seem performace gains from using them.
    
    Also has anybody had any experience with Champion U-Series plugs?
    Jacobs Electronics recommends them.
    
    
    
    thanks,
    mark
        

I've messed about with going back and forth between stock and one step colder 
on my Mustang.  The colder plug was more resistant to ping, so I was able to run
optimum advance with no knock at all.  That was about the only thing I learned; 
and even that, the difference was minor.

I beleive a good general rule for a performance streetcar would be to use 
the coldest plug you can that
1) Doesn't collect deposits.
2) Doesn't misfire at low load/idle or cause the engine to run poorly.
The gain being that a hotter plug wears faster.  

Eric

Mark,

I am running the Autolite equivalent to the AC 45S in my 327.  It has small 
chamber heads 10.6:1 compression, 290 adv. dur cam, and 44 degrees of timing.

Notice that I typed 45S.  This is a non resistor plug.  With my combo, a non
resistor plug produced more horsepower on the dyno than a resistor plug (can
you say, I need more ignition than my HEI/Accel SuperCoil can provide?).

In my case, detonation is not an issue as I run my engine on Sunoco "purple"
108 octane race fuel.

Mark

    I run AC44TSX in my 357CID Chevy Small block....like Eric says you can
    get some more advance in without detonation.
    
    The changes in timing probably have more effect than the heat range
    itself....I do have to watch for deposit build up if I drive at low
    engine speeds or idle alot....not the norm for me however!
    
    I've recently gone to an Accel coil and increased the gap to .060 as
    well.  I have yet to pull 'em and see how they are wearing but it feels
    good...also have not made any runs down the 1/4 yet this year to get
    any data on this change.
    
     Hope this helps.
    

    I'm going to run a test on my drag car this weekend by clipping the
    ground electrode back a bit to unshroud the spark. Has anyone in this
    file experimented with modifying the plugs in this manner? I've heard
    that you can gain up to a tenth with this modification although plug
    longevity will suffer. If I cut the strap back about .050 from it's
    origional length, what gap should I try to maintain?
    
        I'll post the results on Monday.
    
                                                         Thanks, Eric.

Cutting back the sidestraps was worth 3-5 HP on my TPI Vette. I cut them back to
the "near" side of the center electrode (which is what was recommended to me),
and kept the gap at .045", which is what I run all the time.

Bruce

    Thanks for the quick feedback Bruce. I'll definately post the results
    after Friday night's race.
    
                                               -ERIC-

    
     Why don't you just get some surface gap plugs? No need to hassle with
    cutting back ground straps then.
    
     Tony
    

    Hi Tony,
      I have a pretty good ignition system with an Allison XR-700. But
    don't you need a killer magneto setup to fire surface gap plugs? I
    figured that by trimming the ground strap back I could better expose
    the spark without significantly increasing the gap.
    
                                                              -ERIC-

    
     Hmm, got me on that one. I know most the Winston Cup cars are using
    surface gap plugs, and I think all they run is an MSD system.
    
    Tony
    

       Well, I tried the trimmed spark plug trick last Friday night, but
    I didn't see any significant improvement. Boy was the car consistant
    though. Except for my first run which spun the tires and ran a 12.3x,
    my next six runs were all 12.2x at 111.x mph.
    
                                                        -ERIC-

This mod works best if you trim the sidestrap back all the way to the near side
of the electrode (instead of cutting it back to the center of the electrode),
but, even then, it would have to be worth a good 10 HP to get you a tenth on a
car that fast. I remember reading that Myron Cottrelle got an extra 5-8 HP out
of a fairly serious 400 small-block awhile back, which was as big a number as
I've ever heard of.

Unless you make the change between runs, day to day temperature, humidity and
barometer changes can affect you by a good deal more than 10 HP. You might want
to run these a couple of more times to try and get a running average (assuming
you don't document the weather at any given time).

Bruce

Hi,
	Below is the ignition diagram for my project 55 ford pick up.
This circuit works, to crank the motor and spark the plugs. What it is missing
is the bypass wire to bypass the ballast resistor when you are cranking the 
motor. Where does the bypass connect ??? (This is a point system.)

 
			    __________________________________
	ignition switch	    |			    	     |
	________	    |	    to starter               |
       /	\	    |	       |        solenoid     |
   ----|acc  bat|-----------|	       |   ________          |
       |	|		       |___|       |___      |
       |   st---|----------------       ___|       |___------o--to battery
       |      ig|-----\		|          | O   O |
	\______/      |		|          |_|_____|
		      |		|------------|	   
		      |		       	     
		      |____/\/\/\-----------------+ | | - ----to dist
			ballast resistor    	  |------|
						  |	 | coil
						  |______|


		Brian...

>>Hi,
>>	Below is the ignition diagram for my project 55 ford pick up.
>>This circuit works, to crank the motor and spark the plugs. What it is missing
>>is the bypass wire to bypass the ballast resistor when you are cranking the 
>>motor. Where does the bypass connect ??? (This is a point system.)



>>			    __________________________________
>>	ignition switch	    |			    	     |
>>	________	    |	    to starter               |
>>     /	\	    |	       |        solenoid     |
>> ----|acc  bat|-----------|	       |   ________          |
>>     |	|		       |___|       |___      |
>>     |   st---|----------------       ___|       |___------o--to battery
>>     |      ig|-----\		|          | O   O |
>>	\______/      |		|          |_|___|_|
>>		      |		|------------|	 |    the terminal this wire is
>>		      |				 |<---connected to will only
>>		      |		       	         |    have +12V when solenoid is
>>		      |				 |    engaged
>>		      |				 |
>>		      |____/\/\/\----------------|-+ | | - ----to dist
>>			ballast resistor    	   |------|
>>						   |      | coil
>>						   |______|
>>
>>
>>		Brian...

 Brian,
I copied your diagram, and added the wire that bypasses the ballast resistor.

Tom

Hi,
Thanks Tom,,, That's where I thought it should go. I must have a bad solenoid.
When I connected the bypass to that terminal the starter wouldn't stop spinning
in the run position on the switch. I ohmed out the switch and it looks ok...

					Thanks...
						Brian...

    
      Brian,
    
    I wonder if the two small terminals on the solenoid you have are 
    shorted together?  If the solenoid is new I wonder if it may be
    just the wrong type for your application?  
    
    If you apply +12v to the small terminals (one at a time) does the
    solenoid engage both times?
    
    Tom
    

Hi,
The first mistake I made was assuming that the wiring that was
there already was correct. I had wired a new ignition switch, connecting
the ACC terminal to the fuse block. Little did I know that coming
out of the back of the fuse block, out of sight was the previous
owner's wire from the fuse block to the battery. Power was flowing
backwards through the ACC switch terminal and screwing the whole
system up...
Anyway, the ignition circuit now works properly.
Next step, the charging circuit, then maby even lights... (-:

				Brian...

How about some ideas on ignition timing?  A year or so ago I put on an Accel
cap, rotor, wires, on my Chevy 350.  This year it was running lousy, and I 
tracked the problem to a bad vacuum advance diaphragm.  It was stuck and not
moving the ignition timing, and was leaking air, wrecking the carb vacuum.

So, I replaced it with another stock HEI advance canister.  Has anyone used the
Crane adjustable one?  At what point should the vacuum advance kick in?  How
many degrees?

At this point I noted that my 'mr. gasket hi-perf' advance weights have the
exact same shape as the stock GM HEI.  Do these need to be modified to get an
increase in the amount of mechanical advance at higher rpm?
thanks,
Matt

In my experience, I have found pulling the distributor and taking it to someone 
with a distributor machine the way to go.  They can curve it to your exact 
specification and test the curve and distributor output out of the car.

I have not used the Crane unit (I run no vacuum advance at all now).  The 
combination of weights and springs is what changes the curve.  In any event, you
want all of the advance, mechancal + initial + vacuum, in by 3000 rpm for best 
performance.

Given good gas, in my experience, you can run just mechanical and *lots* of 
initial advance and it runs great.  The 327 in the Vega is set up this way now.

Mark

>Crane adjustable one?  At what point should the vacuum advance kick in?  How
>many degrees?

Vacuum advance in a GM should be derived from manifold vacuum, therefore, 
it should "come in" full at idle.  An adjustable vacuum advance diaphragm 
will allow you to adjust the manifold vacuum point where the advance drops 
off.

If you're experiencing a ping when you accelerate, the manifold vacuum may 
be holding the advance mechanism on too long.  To remedy this, increase 
the tension on the diaphragm.  This will cause the diaphragm to retard the 
spark at a higher vacuum than before you adjusted it.  I.e. it'll drop off 
quicker when the manifold vacuum starts dropping when the throttle opens.

The key is to have the vacuum advance fall off just after you crack the 
throttle and come back when you regain cruising speed and manifold vacuum 
again.  If the engine pings, it's not dropping soon enough.

>At this point I noted that my 'mr. gasket hi-perf' advance weights have the
>exact same shape as the stock GM HEI.  Do these need to be modified to get an
>increase in the amount of mechanical advance at higher rpm?
>thanks,

The shape has less to do with the advance rate than the weight *and* the 
return spring tension.  Increasing the spring tension will lengthen the 
mechanical advance curve (i.e. maximum advance will be attained higher in 
the rpm range because it will require more centrifugal force to get the 
weights "out")

Additionally, the angle at which the slots are ground into the driven plate 
will determine the rate at which the advance comes in.  The length of the 
slots along with their angle also determines the amount of advance the 
system can give you.

Lengthening the slots will give you more advance as will grinding a flat 
onto the pin to allow it to move the weight farther against the end of the 
slot. (because the advance is created by the pin allowing the weight to 
swing out against the side of the slot, which is why the slots are on an 
angle and not straight)

BTW, w/o a vacuum advance on a GM, it'll run very hot at an idle.  Most GM 
engines that don't have vacuum advance connected will overheat in traffic.  
Hook up the advance and you can let the engine idle for hours.

skip

      Skip, that is not the way I though vacuum advance worked on GM's.
    On my Buick and my Olds the Vacuum advance calls for ported vacuum
    off of the carb that has vacuum off-idle, and no vacuum on-idle.
    I checked this against my shop manual for my '69 Olds...
    
    In practice this works lousy as under light acceleration the 
    engine pings with any good amount of initial advance.
    
    What is the scoop?
    
    Rich 
    

    I am looking at getting a hotter ignition setup for the Vega.  I was
    going to use an MSD 6AL and asked the guys at Super Shops about it. 
    They suggested that I use a Mallory HyFire IV instead of the MSD box
    because the Mallory box gives a longer duration spark than the multiple
    spark of the MSD box. They are both of the rev limiting type (Mallory
    has a preportional rev limiter that does not require rpm chips) and are
    comparable in price.  They also said that the Mallory box can be setup
    to activate a nitrous system at a specific rpm.
    
    Do any of you guys have any experience with these two boxes?
    
    
    Thanks,
    Mark

    
    I have the MSD 6A I think it is, same as the 6AL but without rev
    limiter. This is in my 88 Mustang GT. I do notice a difference in the
    top end not dropping off as fast. Where I used to shift at about
    5800rpm during hard runs, I know let it get to about 6200rpm or so.
    
    I am happy with it. I run this presently with the stock coil, Accel
    8.8 wires and split fire plugs. Thinking of an aftermarket coil..
    
    Chris

      My brother uses the MSD 6AL, and he is very happy with it.
    He runs a 10:1 Buick 350 with N2o, DNE 5-speed and a 3.55
    12 bolt.
    
    Rich

    
    	I've got an MSD 6AL in my Firebird along with a huge Mallory oil
    filled spark coil. I have never seen such spark in my life! It doesn't
    really spark, it flames. I've had a 1.5" or so 'flame' out of it when I
    was testing it. I'd hate to be shocked by it, probably at least get RF
    burned. The 6AL has the Soft-Touch rev control too. You just put in the
    RPM limiting plug you want (3K,6K,7K,8K come with it) and when the RPM
    is reached, the ignition system starts cutting the spark out so that
    the engine cannot go over the specified RPM. The spark is not actually
    cut but re-timed so that the fuel is ignited before its dumped into the
    exhaust raw.
    
    	The Mallory after market distributors I've looked at don't put out
    a spark at all like that. I don't have any experiance with the Mallory
    ignition boxes but I have been told that the MSDs are much more
    accurate, powerful and reliable.
    
    	Either way, make sure that the ignition box and coil are matched.
    You'll smoke one or the other if they're not.
    
    
    	Dave

Thanks for all of the feedback on ignition systems.

Mark

    
    Hello All,
    
    I'm having a problem with the HEI ignition on a `79 Malibu,
    267 CID V-8.
    
    Last week I replaced the cap, rotor, plugs and wires - using AC Delco
    parts.  However, I neglected to install the coil ground clip into the
    new distributor cap.  The engine fired up fine, but under load the
    engine misfired through the carb, almost as if the plug wires were 
    crossed.  I discovered this error, and reinstalled the ground clip but 
    the problem persisted.  Since then, I've replaced the coil, rotor, and 
    cap, as all 3 components showed marked evidence of damage due to 
    improper grounding of the coil (carbon tracking)
    
    The problem still persists.  It idles fine, but under load misfires
    through the intake.
    
    I've double and triple checked the plug wires, but all are properly 
    ordered.  The plugs are also ok.  To check for mechanical problems
    (hanging intake valve, jumped timing chain) I've run the engine with
    each plug wire disconnected, but the misfire persists.  I have to
    assume since the problem isn't isolated to one particular cylinder - it
    isn't mechanical, but ignition related.
    
    The timing is spot on at factory spec with the vacuum advance plugged.
    
    My hypothesis is that due to improper grounding of the coil, the coil
    sought a ground path down through the distributor (accounting for the 
    carbon tracking on the cap, rotor, and old coil) which fried something.
    
    Not being familiar with electronic ignitions and HEI's in particular --
    I'm wondering which component is damaged.  The pickup coil?  Module?
    
    If the module were fried, being it's a solid state device , would the
    car run at all?
    
    Ideas anyone?????
    
    Thanks,
    
    Tom 
    

    
    Tom,
    
    Did you use the clear silicon grease around the red rubber gasket? This
    prevents leakage where the coil output comes through the cap.
    
    my .02
    
    Don B
    

    
    Don,
    
    No, I didn't grease up the gasket.  The old gasket wasn't greased
    either.  Could this be the cause of the problem?
    
    Keep the ideas flowing....
    
    Tom

    Tom. are you sure this problem wasn't there before you tuned up the
    car? (not sure if you own the car or not)
    
    These are the same symptoms of a worn camshaft. Chevy is infamous for
    this. 
    
    For your sake I hope this isn't the problem.
    
    mh

    
    Hi mark,
    
    Yes I do own the car, and no, the problem didn't exist prior to
    my botched tune-up effort..... Besides, wouldn't a worn cam prevent
    full valve opening, vs. closing?  The popping through the intake
    sounds like a valve is hanging open.  
    
    This car has a credible 38,000 miles on it.  I can't vouch
    for the quality of maintenance in those 38,000 miles however.  I have
    to assume that none of the hard parts are shot after so few miles, but
    again I'm no expert on bow-ties.
    
    Thanks for the tip.
    
    Tom
    

Popping through the carb is usually an indication of a worn intake seat or a 
worn exhaust cam lobe.

If an exhaust lobe is worn out, the intake will allow a nearly full charge 
to be drawn in and burned, however, the exhaust won't allow all the gas to 
escape.

Since there is an overlap between the end of the exhaust cycle and the 
beginning of the intake cycle some gasses are expelled through the intake 
valve as it opens because there's still pressure in the cylinder.

The harder you stand on the loud pedal, the more pressure is left in the 
cylinder when the intake pops back open.

    
    I guess Skip's explanation sounds plausible.  However, I must
    assume this isn't the case as the problem arose after the distributor
    was monkeyed with.  So, to get back to the original question,
    what ignition component is likely to have been damaged by the
    improperly grounded coil?  
    
    I'd really appreciate any help, as I will be needing this car
    as a daily driver when my Sentra gets sold.
    
    Thanks,
    
    

The explanation that Skip gave makes sense, given that you also just did an
ignition tune up.  Before, you may not have been getting a good spark to the
bad cylinder.  Now you are, and the popping is happening.  Try removing a plug
wire, one in turn, and see if the popping ever is reduced.  Then you know the
cylinders with the bad lobes or the bad intake seat.

If you suspect a bad lobe on a particular cylinder, remove the valve cover,
and start the engine, and visually inspect the associated rocker arm for a 
full range of motion.
Matt

    
    Matt,
    
    Been there, done that...... The problem was universal, and not
    limited to a single cylinder.
    
    I replaced the ignition control module last night, and guess what?
    THE PROBLEM IS STILL THERE!!!!!!!
    
    Arrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhh  agagagagagagaga!
    
    This weekend we're gonna temporarily pop in a known good distributor.
    Should this not fix the problem I'll have to assume it's the hard
    parts.
    
    A few weeks ago the valve cover gaskets were replaced, and all rockers
    adjusted.  Aside from a mild valvetrain tick, everything looked cool.
    
    The car was running well after this procedure, BTW.
    
    Tom

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm  didn't you adjust them to just 1/4 turn?  I wonder if you 
might have dropped a pushrod.

It might not be a bad idea to take another look under the valve covers

    
    Guys,
    
    This is a 2v 267 cube motor!!  Hardly a candidate for 6,500 RPM
    banzai runs!  So, I went with 1/4 turn cause I thought that was the
    correct adjustment, not to wring out a few more revs.....
    
    8^)
    
    Tom

    
    Well folks, the camsayers were right...sort of.
    
    Running the motor with valve covers off revealed the #4 exhaust
    valve to have minimal action.  Basically the rocker arm was just barely
    fluttering, where the other rockers demonstrated some semblance
    of lift (as least as much as a .3XX OEM cam allow 8^))
    
    Yesterday the intaker manifold came off, and the offending lifter
    removed from it's bore.  The toe of the lifter has done it's best
    impression of a Jamaican steel drum -- concave by about 1/16-1/8" with
    evidence of undampened collision with the cam lobe.  The pushrod 
    "socket" on said lifter was also well pounded and deformed.
    
    Some finger probing of the associated cam lobe revealed no obvious 
    scoring, but I'll probably put a dial indicator on it, spin the motor
    and check for proper lift.  If the cam checks out, she'll go together
    tonight.  I random checked a few other lifters and they all looked
    perfect.  The lifter galley is really clean, which lends further
    credence to the 38,000 mile claim.
    
    In closing I must commend GM on the ease by which the small block is
    worked on.  Compared with my big-block Ford, this motor is really
    a snap to work on.
    
    Thanks for all of your help guys.
    
    Tom

You should invest in a big block MoPar sometime.

You can remove the lifters WITHOUT having to remove the intake manifold.  
There's sufficient room to pull them up through the pushrod opening in 
the cylinder head.  Each pair will come up through one side of the opening 
(one get's stuck if you try and lift it straight out)

If anyone needs to borrow it, I have the tool for such maneuvers.

    
    But Skip,  I've already had a big-block Mopar, specifically
    a `59 Chrysler Saratoga with the "high deck" 383.
    
    Believe me, this motor was a runner.  It never required much work
    other than plugs, points and the like.
    
    Also loved the pushbutton torqueflite and the original equipment 
    2.25" dual exhaust.
    
    Neat car
    
    Tom  

    
    Well, in the final analysis, Mark Hamel and Skip Readio were right.
    I've got a cam lobe problem, and a significant one at that.
    
    After a massive push to install a new lifter and pushrod, a badly
    leaking intake manifold gasket (which necessitated installing the
    intake manifold *twice* 8^( ) I got the motor running.  Running
    with the valve cover off revealed (in addition to a fair amount of
    smoke from oil on the exhaust manifold!!)  that the #4 exhaust valve
    is doing nothing.  I mean nothing, save for a feeble fluttering of the
    rocker arm.  The cam lobe is toast......
    
    Bummer you say -- and it is.  Sort of.  A simple call to Summit racing
    and a new Comp Cams 252H, set of lifters, and steel timing chain is on
    the way.  About $120 total, which isn't bad at all. This change should
    yield a modest power increase and substantial piece of mind.
     
    Last night the motor cam apart (again) and tonight I'll finish the
    disassembly.  The only thing left to do is remove the balancer,
    radiator, and tilt the A/C condensor out of the way.  Hopefully this
    will give me enough clearance to remove the old cam and install the
    new one.  If not, I'll just remove the grille assembly.  The intake is
    off, pushrods removed, waterpump off, and all accessories out of the
    way.
    
    Suprisingly I'm not too bummed out.  This whole process has been a good
    learning experience, and I must say the Chevy small block is rather fun
    and easy to work on.  
    
    While I'm on the subject, this morning I was thinking about other
    simple power modifications.  I will retain the 2v intake and factory
    exhaust so these mods are out.  How about some longer rocker arms to
    gain more effective valve lift?  I've been told this change yields some
    easy power gains.  Any thoughts?  On early small block Fords there is
    a big flow imbalance between the reasonable intake ports, and super
    tiny exhaust ports.  I've seen people run longer rocker arms on the
    exhaust valves to help "even" out this imbalance.  Any such condition
    exist on the SBC?  Particularly with single exhaust and cast iron
    exhaust manifolds?
    
    Thanks for the help so far.  Boy a simple tune-up has gotten mighty
    involved.......
    
    Tom
    
    
    

>    disassembly.  The only thing left to do is remove the balancer,
>    radiator, and tilt the A/C condensor out of the way.  Hopefully this
>    will give me enough clearance to remove the old cam and install the
>    new one.  If not, I'll just remove the grille assembly.  The intake is
>    off, pushrods removed, waterpump off, and all accessories out of the
>    way.
>    
>    Suprisingly I'm not too bummed out.  This whole process has been a good
>    learning experience, and I must say the Chevy small block is rather fun
>    and easy to work on.  

AHA!!  but you haven't started to monkey with the timing cover yet, have 
you.  The only easy way to get it back on with the new timing cover-to-oil 
pan gasket is to lower the oil pan a bit.  Hope it doesn't leak too bad 
afterwards.

.......and you thought you were almost done taking it apart  :-(

I'm doin' a Dodge van (full sized) 318 timing chain right now.  I have the 
pan off and since the motor's got just under 200,000 miles on it, we're 
throwing in an oil pump for good measure.

The ONLY reason we'd decided to remove the oil pan is that I won't 
guarantee a leak-free timing chain job unless I replace the pan gaskets, 
too.

If you have to lift the motor to get the pan out to clean it, now's the 
time to replace the oil soaked motor mounts, too.  (I didn't have to lift 
the motor, though)

Since the fuel pump has to come off, it's being replaced, too.  It's a 
real bear to get at and has been on there for 90,000+ miles.

The guy who owns this van (my youngest's God Father) is a stickler for 
preventive maintenance.  He wanted to replace the bearings but I'm not 
doing THAT job on my back.  We'll use a lift for that if and when.  The pan 
comes off so nicely that it'll be a snap of a job later on.

><<< Note 79.53 by CSLALL::NASEAM::READIO "A Smith & Wesson beats four aces, Tow trucks beat Chapman Locks" >>>
                        -< Timing chain cover ???????? >-

Tom probably has Chris Roche helping him and Chris knows his small block
 Chevy. Am I right Tom??

Skip, How bad a job is replacing a rear main seal on the 318? (In a W100 pickup).

Ross

    
    Hey Ross,
    
    Chris is helping out, but primarily as phone advisor.  Putting in
    the new cam will require his presence.  To guarantee that presence
    I'm stocking up on brewskies right now......
    
    Tom

>Skip, How bad a job is replacing a rear main seal on the 318? (In a W100 pickup).


Well, the oil pan on the van came off w/o having to lift the motor, if that 
helps.

There are a couple of braces that run from the base of the engine block 
(just above the pan and midway front-to-back) and down to the bellhousing.  
The one on the left will have to come off as it's a bit close to the pan.  

The one on the other side will have to have the bell housing bolt removed 
so that you can get the flywheel dust shield off.

Remove the starter and the flywheel dust shield.  If you left the left 
brace (above) on you wouldn't be able to pull the dust shield over the 
starter stud.

Bring the crank up to TDC on # 1 or #2 to get the crank throws out of the 
way and slide the pan back into the cavity where the dust shield was.

You will, if you're lucky, see that the pan just touches the bottom of the 
bellhousing.  If you clean the crud off the crossmember, it'll drop a bit 
farther and come out.

Loosen the main bearing caps, remove the rear.

The new rear main seals you get from FelPro are two-piece neoprene units 
and will literally fall into place.  No more fishing a rope seal in.

I'd replace the rear main bearing while I was at it, too.  If the seal's 
leaking there's a good chance the bearing's a bit loose.

Put the front and rear gaskets on the oil pan.  There are little tabs on 
the corners that you pull through small holes to lock the front and rear 
gaskets into the pan.

Slip the pan back in place.

Glue both sides of the pan side gaskets with a good gasket cement.  If you 
insist on using silicone, don't use too much that it squeezes out where it 
can foul the oil filter screen.

Slip the gaskets up onto the pan and put the pan up against the bottom of 
the block.

    
    On saturday, we installed the new cam (Comp Cams 252H) timing chain
    and lifters.  Buttoned the motor back up, ran in the cam, and then
    off for a test spin.  Result?  The motor runs well, with much greater
    mid range.  I wasn't too happy with the poor bottom end response, but
    a few more degrees of initial advance cured that.
    
    The old cam looked ok, except for a TOTALLY flat #4 exhaust lobe.  I'll
    hang on to it for future war-stories....
    
    Only one problem.  Motor still has an RPM dependant tick.  Not a deep
    toned bottom-end style noise, or the hollow "thwock" of a piston slap
    but a metallic click at 1/2 engine speed.  Some long-stick audio
    diagnosis reveals the noise is emanating from the fuel pump.  Our guess
    is that the long storage allowed the pump spring to weaken, and
    basically can't keep up with the pump pushrod.  The motor also has a
    rolling idle consistent with large fluctuations in fuel pump pressure 
    and output.
    
    The lifters/rockers are ruled out.  All have been properly adjusted.
    
    Anyone every hear of a ticking fuel pump?  Is it common?
    
    Tom

It could be sticking/worn.

These maladies are not uncommon.

Bruce

A lot of times the ticking comes from a fuel pump pushrod that's a bit 
crudded up.  The return spring in the fuel pump arm isn't strong enough to 
return it to the base of the cam lobe.

    
    Well hopefully this closes out my Malibu saga.  Replaced the
    fuel pump and pump pushrod last night. This effectively cured
    the ticking.  The old pump had about 1/3" of slop in the pump arm 
    and the pushrod was crudded up too.
    
    However, I must say that replacing a chevy fuel pump (along with
    the timing chain cover) ranks among lifes more irritating things..
    You need about 8 pairs of hands to hold up the rod, install the pump,
    perfectly align the gasket, and get the bolts started.  Oh, I almost
    forgot.  15 years really makes the fuel line reluctant to break loose
    from the pump.  I ended up breaking the line -- and bending a newone by
    hand, as my tubing bender won't accomodate 3/8" line.  Arrrrrrrggggggg
    
    At least it's done.  For now.
    
    Tom

    Tom, there's an extra hole in the block to hold the pump pushrod. You
    remove the bolt that's in there, insert a longer one and snug it
    against the rod, then install the fuel pump. Easy! :-)
    
    Oh yeah, DON'T forget to remove the long bolt and put the short one
    back in before you turn the engine over! :-(
    
    Harry
    

    Hi Harry,
    
    Yes, I was aware of this trick, yet couldn't find a suitable bolt
    for the job.  Ended up using an old hacksaw blade to hold up the
    pushrod.  BTW, I could easily see damaging the pushrod with an
    excessive use of force on the bolt.....
    
    
    Tom
    

Another thing you want to do is bring the engine up to TDC compression 
stroke on #1 cylinder.  This puts you on the base circle of the fuel pump 
lobe on the camshaft and makes installation a WHOLE LOT EASIER!  The pump 
nearly falls into place because you're not working against a compressed 
pump lever return spring.

Tom, grease the rod. This will hold it it place.


Ross

    
    Hi Gang,
    
    Thanks for the SBC tips.  I brought the Malibu to work today.
    It's running quite well now.  The top end power isn't great, but
    I shouldn't expect LT-1 results from a smogger 267 2V!!!
    
    Perhaps I should have selected a Comp Cams 260H instead of the 252H...
    Oh well, live and learn.
    
    All of your help on this project has been greatly appreciated.  
    
    
    
    
    

    Tom, you don't have enough carb on there for much more cam. An
    Edelbrock Performer intake and a small Holley 4-bbl would bring that
    baby to life! :-)
    
    If you can keep your foot out of it, you might also get better mileage.
    I converted a Dodge 318 powered van from a 2 to 4 bbl and the mileage
    went from around 6.5 mpg to 10.9. Well worth the trouble!
    
    Harry
    

    
    Hi Gang,
    
    Throughout this topic are references to weaker distributor springs.
    I'm thinking of modifying my `79 GM HEI with lighter springs.  I'm
    looking to maintain the same *total* advance, but just bring in the 
    mechanical a little faster for better low-end throttle response.
    
    I'd be curious as to what to expect.  Will lighter springs affect the
    total advance? (sum of mechanical and vacuum) Will the lighter springs
    give me crisper response?  What are/may be the pitfalls of such a mod?
    (I already run 93 octane unleaded)
    
    The motor is a 267 2v with a comp cams 252H, 2.7X gear set, 8.5
    compression, TH350 trans, in a malibu of approximately 3,400 pounds.
    
    The carb will be modified soon to richen the mixture somewhat.  
    
    Tom
    

    Tom, the springs will only change when the advince is in. They don't
    affect the total advance. You have to change the vacuum can and/or the
    weights themselves to change the total advance. If I remember right,
    the weights have a cam shape and changing the shape will change the
    total advance. The vacuum cans come in different stroke lengths (some
    are adjustable) to affect total advance.
    
    BTW, you're probably wasting a ton-o-money by putting 93 octane into an
    8.5:1 smogger motor. :-(
    
    Harry
    

    
    Tom,
    
    One thing you will have to watch out for is to much advance to early.
    This could cause detonation at low rms under heavy loads, especialy
    with the "economy" gear set. May not be a problem with the good gas, but
    since you are aready using it there must be a reason.
    
    my $.02
    
    Don
    

    
    Thanks for the input.  Harry, I'm running the 93 octane cause
    this little motor needs lots of initial advance to gain some
    semblance of bottom end torque.  So, the initial is currently at
    around 14 degrees.  This kinda rules out 87 octane.....
    
    Besides, the motor seems to get better mileage (2-3 mpg difference)
    with the additional advance.  Basically, on a cost per mile basis --
    running the high test is no more expensive than running regular and
    getting 2-3 mpg less.
    
    Don, your advice is good.  Perhaps I will buy a few different spring
    "weights" and experiment for the best performance with the least
    detonation.
    
    Tom

Chevrolet runs MAXIMUM vacuum advance at idle and you can crank an 
additional 10 or so degrees into many of these distributors w/o getting 
into too much trouble on the bottom end.

Where you run into trouble is mid range when you do that.  One of the 
reasons is that total advance is up too far.

If you weaken the mechanical springs, you'll get the advance in sooner w/o 
the problem of too much total advance.  A quick test is to remove one 
spring and leave the other.  This'll give you total advance at roughly 1000 
rpm.  If it doesn't cause any problems, go out and get a spring kit and 
start playing with the advance rates.

If you start to experience mid range ping (that goes away if you get on the 
throttle a bit harder) STRENGTHEN the vacuum advance spring.  This'll 
cause the vacuum advance to drop off a bit sooner when you breath on the 
throttle (and reduce manifold vacuum) and it'll eliminate that cruising-up-
an-incline ping.

Manifold vacuum advance systems retard the spark when the throttle is 
opened and are at full advance whenever manifold vacuum is in the 15 inch 
range.

Ported vacuum advance systems gradually increase the advance as velocity 
builds in the carburetor.  Maximum advance occurs at cruising speed.

    
    Last night I removed one of the distributor advance springs and then
    took the car for a test drive.  Results were nothing short of
    astounding.  There's no problem whatsoever with ping, even at partial
    throttle in high gear under load.  However, the throttle response
    got really crisp off idle and especially mid-range.  This simple, no
    cost, 5 minute mod made more difference than even the cam swap.  This
    car can actually *break the tires loose* which considering it's lowly
    state of being is a damned miracle.  
    
    Tom

    Over the weekend we put a Mallory Unilite with vacuum advance
    in my ex Torino, this distributor replaced a dual point Accel unit.  
    The swap was simple, bring #1 cylinder to TDC pull out old
    distributor and drop in new one.  Three wire hookup, - on the
    coil, + on the coil, and ground.  The car fired instantly
    and after a couple adjustments runs even stronger than with
    the dual point..and no more points to adjust and replace.  Money
    well spent in my book.  BTW the dual point unit is for sale
    if anyones interested send me mail.
    
                Dean
                                                                

Anyone else having problems with an MSD 6A?

Mine's back in Texas, AGAIN, for the same problem.

The bonehead on the customer service line told me the reason the FUSIBLE 
LINK IN THE MAIN POWER FEED WIRE blew out was because I had a voltage spike.

Give me a break!  If I had a voltage spike it'd have taken out my radar 
detector, my CB radio and my Concord am/fm/cassette.

When it worked, it worked great.  The problem is that it died w/o warning.  
It died after only 109 miles.

I sent it back and they returned it w/ only a fusible link replaced.  I 
thought that was a bit strange but chalked it up to manufacturing defects 
instead of a faulty amplifier.

It lasted all of 9 miles the second time.

FWIW, while it was out the first time, a street rodder at the NSRA Nats 
east related that he'd had two units that'd been back twice (the second one 
was still there)

Has anyone else experienced similar problems?

I'm looking at maybe using an Accel box instead.  I need that "buzz" spark 
to get my engine to fire up when it's cold.  Too many carburetors, too many 
vacuum leaks (around the 8 butterflies) and I have to crank forever to get 
it to light off.  When the MSD worked, it started like it did when I had 
the 4bbl on it.

What's the word on the street?  These things any good for more than 15 
minutes of driving or are they strictly a race-only contraption?

    
        I have a dead MSD6A thats been sitting on my workbench for about 18
    months. It was given to me as a brand new unit as payment for work I
    did. It lasted 14 days on my truck, died...and left me stranded.
    I threw it on the bench and forgot about it until the last note where I
    just got reminded that I own one.
        Not sure now that I want it fixed or back on my truck!
    
    -john

    re: .74/75
    I know a lot of folks that have the MSD boxes installed in their
    race cars (some for years), my 6AL has been in for almost a year....no
    problems. I also know of units in everyday machines that don't have
    problems. Then there are stories like yours, but it seems to be the
    exception from what I hear.  Could it be the unit location, or
    installation ? Or just a bad (lemon) unit?
     
    rich
    
    

I did some checking.  MSD6A draws approximately 50 amps every time it fires. 
No wonder there's a buzz in my tape deck.  No wonder there's a fusible 
link in the power source.

Seems that they don't react well to SUSTAINED heat situations w/o popping 
said fusible link.  Mine is mounted INSIDE the car on the right kick panel 
where it's nice and cool....and it still gets hot.

I think I'll take this new one they're sending me and sell it.  I 
complained so much they said they'd replace, rather than repair mine.

    Hi Guys !
    
    I have been running my MSD6-AL for more than a year, that is 3000 
    kilometres in my Mustang. I have had no problems at all and I find
    it a great box. My box is located in the engine appartment beside
    the fan so it gets cooled from that.
    
    Lots and lots of people are running MSD boxes here so I don't think 
    they are so bad, then the rumour would have catched up on them.
    
    Regards, Richard 

Well,I sold my 6A  --  to a guy from Boxboro whose 6A died on him before he 
could even hear his new engine run.  Same problem, no continuity between 
the power and ground wires when you slap a DVOM on the leads.  Fusible 
link's toasted.

He's gonna send his back and get it repaired under warranty and use it as a 
hot spare when mine fails again.   He doesn't want a stock distributor (he 
has the MSD magnetic pick-up distributor in there right now) and he can't 
fit an HEI into his '55 Nomad w/o hitting the firewall AND the air cleaner 
on the tri-power.

I've thrown together a stock (Kettering style) distributor and harness and 
installed a ballast resistor under the battery tray (out of sight) that'll 
get him home when BOTH of his MSDs are dead.

Now, to my situation.  Anyone messed with or know of anyone with an Accel 
300+ box on a street driven (read: daily driver)?  How do they like it?  
Any problems?

Our old friend Tom Fisher's working for the folks who designed it and has 
given me some tech info on it but I was looking for some non-race car 
feedback before I went out and bit the bullet for one.

They're computer controlled and you CAN'T run solid core wires with them so 
it's going to cost me a new set of resistance plug wires that'll probably 
break the first time I try and remove them from the spark plugs (way down 
in the tubes) cause I'll have to tug on the wire itself to get the boot off 
the plug.  Hemis always had solid core wires for that reason.  I'll have 
to figure some way to glue the plastic plug wire sleeve to the silicon plug 
boot so it'll pull on the boot and not the wire when I have to get it off  
--  and that happens every time I have to remove the valve cover to set the 
valves.  Since it's a solid lifter cam (roller) and it gets driven HARD 
every time I head off to the nationals or to Macungie, or to the Lead East 
or to.... that happens a lot.  Bummer!

	The MSD6AL in my Mustang died the other night.  Just what I
needed when it's raining.....The unit is about 3 months old. I guess I'll
send it back and see what they say. Is there a trend starting here?

/Mike 

    I hope not.  I have an MSD6al but haven't installed it yet.  I have
    enough problems as it is.  A track buddy carries 2 MSD's...
    because one always seems to be breaking.
    
    Has anyone in here called MSD to see what the story is?    OR
    who else makes an ignition that will work reliably that comes with
    a built in rev limiter and a step?  I have had good sucess with my
    mallory, but they don't have anything with a step so I went with
    MSD.
    
    MadMike

    
       The msd that I had in my truck fried after 3 months, then it sat on
    my workbench for about a year. Recently, I returned it to MSD for
    repair and ended up giving it to a guy who fixed my roof for me as
    payment. It lasted 3 days in his chevell SS. He says next time he'll
    ask me for money instead.  Oh well...at least I don't have that damn
    thing anymore.
    
    -john

    simply Put...
    
     MSD = Junk !!!    
    
        If you own a FORD you should NOT use any MSD products, because
    MSD products are only for car that  Break down often...
    
       that's why you'll see Chevies with MSD products, most chevy
    owners DO keep a set in the trunk when they break down...but
    that's typical of a CheVE.  
    
    :)
    

I replaced the MSD with an Accel 300+ (box and coil) and the only complaint 
I have about that setup is the noise it makes.

It's in my hot rod and, since I don't run a hood, I put it inside the cabin 
on the right kick panel and mounted the ugly coil on the inside of the 
firewall.  (Can't have all that high tech stuff showing on a nostalgia hot 
rod).  The buzzing can be a bit annoying when you're idling around town.  
On the highway you can't hear it over the engine noise.

The mileage with the stock ignition was 12.6 mpg no matter how I drove the 
car on the highway.  Towing a trailer with a few pieces of luggage in the 
back, filled up in Tonowanda (it holds 53 gallons) and the mileage figured 
out to be 12.6.  Drove to and within Welland, Ontario for the weekend then 
down to Syracuse and filled up again.  12.6.  Drove around Syracuse for a 
week going to Cooperstown one day, again 12.6.

Finally got the Accel into the car.

Towed the same trailer LOADED with books to Rhinebeck, NY for the Goodguys 
event and only got 12.1 mpg but the trailer was loaded to the point where I 
had to boost the air shocks to keep the tires from rubbing on the floor.

Next weekend drove to Burlington Vermont and back.  65 mph most of the 400 
mile round trip.  Filled the tank when I got back. FOURTEEN POINT THREE MPG.

NOW it makes a difference what kind of driving I'm doing.  If the engine;s 
just loafing along at 65 mph (2700 rpm) I'm getting really good mileage.  
If I'm hauling a heavy trailer up through the Berkshires it falls off a bit.

14.3 is pretty good seeing as I used to only be able to get that kind of 
economy once I got past western Pennsylvania and onto less mountainous 
terrain.  And that was with the Holley R3310.  When I threw on the 4 
Stromberg 97 2bbl carbs my fuel economy went in the toilet.

The Accel is really helping to burn the fuel.

The engine pulls a bit better off an idle again.  It used to be pretty 
strong with the 4bbl but the 8 butterflies in there now had a tendency to 
induce a flat spot if I tried to cruise around in 4th gear at or near idle 
speed.  I had to be real careful how I applied the throttle for a few 
hundred rpm.  With the 300+ I've gotten a bit better off-idle response back.
Midrange is pretty much the same.  I would expect the top end to be better 
but with the weak valve springs in there now, I'll never know.  The valves 
start floating just below 5000 rpm now.  I can live with that, though.  
It's a lot better than replacing roller tappets and welding worn cam lobes.

The car starts better and idles better, it get's better fuel economy and it 
didn't leave me stranded in less than 150 miles.

    Skip,
    
    Is there any noise/radio interference with the Accel?  This system
    is usally advertised as a "race only" application.
    
    Mark

>    Is there any noise/radio interference with the Accel?  This system
>    is usally advertised as a "race only" application.


Actually, there's only minimal radio interference and it only happens 
between stations (my radio doesn't have digital tuning).  It hasn't 
affected my CB reception at all, either.

The noise is a buzzing sound emitting from the unit itself.  It's the 
electronics working, that's all.  The point I was trying to make is you 
don't want to mount it inside a car if you're using it in your daily driver
.  Aesthetically, it just doesn't cut the mustard having something like that 
on the firewall of a nostalgia rod.  I'm contemplating moving it onto the 
underside of the floor up inside the frame away from the elements.  It 
can't be any worse than having it on the firewall of a Chevelle from that 
standpoint.

FWIW, there was a full page ad in one of the current street rod rags 
touting the street reliability of the unit.  It DOES work.  It doesn't use 
massive amounts of power, it's small and it runs VERY COOL.  I reached over 
and laid my hand on the heat sink after it'd been running for 4 hours and 
it was barely warm.  Not nearly as warm as a ceramic coffee cup full of hot 
coffee, if that gives you any idea.

Skip,

 I'll be seeing Mr. Fisher tonight, I'll let him know you're happy with the
300+. 

 For those who don't know, Tom Fisher works for the company that developed
the 300+.

Chris

    What's it cost for the unit? Also do they have units that work with
    Mopar electronic distributors?
    
    
    
    						/Dave
    

    I'm going to junk my MSD and two step.  Jegs has a mallory ignition
    with a proportional rev limiter and a "staging control" (aka two step).
    I'll put the old mallory hy-fire into my truck.
    
    MadMike

The 300+ ran me something like $159.00 or something like that.  I got it 
from Summit, I believe.  It comes as a package (coil and unit) with all 
the necessary wire to hook it up.  FWIW, the MSD was $118.95 from Summit.

The 300+ is substantially smaller than the MDS 6A.  The coil is the new style 
(looks like a "transformer" instead of a cylindrical ignition coil.  i.e. 
it won't fit in your coil bracket.  You'll have to mount it on or behind 
the firewall.  The high voltage terminal looks like the top of a spark plug 
as well (as opposed to the conventional female socket inside a tower)

The Accel 300+ can be connected to either a Kettering or an electronic 
distributor.  It'll plug right into your MoPar distributor but you have to 
use the plug that's part of the original engine compartment harness if you 
want to retain the property of having a removable distributor.  Otherwise, 
simply splice the wires.  If it were my car, I'd get the plug from a 
boneyard car and put it on the end of the 300+ harness so I could unplug 
the distributor later.

I always get nervous when something is called Race-whatever. Several so-called
street parts I have gotten over the years I would consider race duty only.

I'm looking for a replacement ignition box for a seemingly useless (and
expensive) Jacob's ignition. My confidence is shaken by all the trouble I've had
sorting out my supercharger, the amount of fuel I'm using, and the fact that I
absolutely can't rev the engine over 5000 rpms with a spark gap over 0.028".
Everyone else seems to be able to run gaps at 0.038" without problem. I'm damn
meticulous with ignition system maintainence. 

I'm strongly considering the Accel ignition. Would you recommend it.

Eric


PS, I know now that I am no-longer a newbie to DEC...Having endured long enough
to witness Skip Readio speak kindly about computer-gizmo ignitions. :-)

All the catalog hype says it's "race", (I suppose that's to entice buyers.  
Isn't that what Summit is supposed to do?) yet the literature alludes to it's 
long-term reliability for, what I would consider, road race applications.  
One of the recent street rod mags carried a full page ad alluding to the 
same street reliability.  I even got the impression that this was designed 
to be a reliable street or Mexican Road Race type of device.  With that in 
mind, drag racing or land speed racing is a no-brainer.  The midget guys 
are running these things in the 5 digit engine rpm range, if that makes you 
feel any better about the performance aspect.

It doesn't draw a lot of current so it doesn't get hot, although it's got a 
pretty massive heat sink for it's size.  It's microprocessor controlled so 
it doesn't need gobs of stored charge.  It simply accurately programs the 
spark duration for the proper frequency (engine rpm) being used.  I suppose 
if you got up into the upper rpm ranges and shortened the duty cycle 
substantially (from where I'm operating at) it'd get a bit warmer.  I'm 
hitting 2800 @ 65ish mph.  That's not really going to tax it's output.  
With my spongy valve springs (I decided sacrificing a but of rpm was more 
cost-effective than replacing roller tappets and camshafts) the valves 
float @ 5400 so I doubt that I'll ever get it to run warm.

It's relatively small, too.  From what I recall, it's as long as an MSD 6A 
is wide.  I used two of the studs in the kick panel that the MSD was 
previously mounted on to mount the 300+

It's got an on board rev limiter.  Simply set the DIP switches for the rpm 
limit you desire.  Although it doesn't say so, I believe it's a soft rev 
limiter like Mallory's.  i.e.  it drops a few spark pulses as opposed to 
simply shutting down the ignition, thus leaving cylinders full of raw fuel. 
 ...not a nice thing when the ignition switches back on again, especially 
if you're on the "gas".

You're right.  I HATE electronics.  However, I'm looking to stretch out my 
spark duration and electronics is the only way to do it.  I can always go 
back to the stock ignition if I need to.  I can bypass the Accel in an 
emergency but I haven't had to yet.

It comes with a new coil, BTW, so if you're running a cylindrical coil 
you'll have to find a place to mount this new transformer-like high output 
coil.

The connections between the coil and box are the new weatherproof type.  
All you need to do is connect to power and to your distributor.

I haven't driven it a "lot" but it has been to Vernon, CT and back as well 
as Rhineback, NY and Burlington, VT.  Its been on two foliage tours, one 
from Worcester to Gilbertville to Leominster and the other to Wakefield, 
NH.   ...and a bunch of around-town/club meeting trips and hasn't burped.   
...and it stays cold to the touch.  (It's the same temp as the dashboard or 
the door jamb)

Well, time for an update.

The car's been idle since the beginning of October.  The 6 volt battery'd 
died in the spring but had enough oomph to kick the fuel pump to prime the 
carbs as long as I didn't let the car sit for too many days.  By October, 
though, it was a gonner.  I can't understand it. It was NEW in '86 or '87.

Anyways, since I'd planned to pull the tranny and give it a 200,000 mile 
service and I wanted to send my Competition Plus back to Hurst to get 
rebuilt ....and it was cold in the garage, nothing got done until this 
spring.

I picked up a new 6 volt battery a couple of weeks ago (the 12 volt was 
new last year) and the Hurst came back last night.

I fired it up last night for the first time since October. It fired w/in 2 
revolutions and idled perfectly.  In the past I'd have had to re-start it 
half a dozen times to get it to smooth out enough to take my foot off the 
throttle.

That Accel 300+ is great!

Now I gotta put the carpet and seats back in and take it for a putt.

    
       My question concerns the 6V battery in that car. In that, does
    anyone make an equivalent of say a Interstate super megatron Plus? But
    in a 6 Volt version?  The only thing In 6V the the Interstate
    distributor carries here is industrial applications and some really
    HUGE truck batteries.
    
    -john

Actually, Interstate has a line of 6 volt automotive batteries.  I bought 
one a couple of years ago for the '48 Chrysler.  It's a pretty small 
battery if you want to compare it to a truck battery.  It fits the stock 
Chrysler battery tray just fine.

FWIW, the 6 volt battery I just put in the '34 came from Whitley's in 
Townsend.  (My source for discount Interstate batteries sold his business)