Conference napalm::musclecars

    My Doug Nash may be in need of a rebuild soon. The second gear syncro
    seems to be on it's way out. It shifts fine until I power shift.
    Even with my foot all the way to the floor with the clutch I still
    get a crunch if I pull back hard on the shifter going into second.
    
    Anybody have any idea how much something like this costs to rebuild?
    
    Any recomondations on shops? I've heard alot of good things about 
    Bill Belmore at Competition Gear.
    
    Thanks,
    Mark

    
    You may want to talk to Steve Eaton in Shrewsbury.  He works at home
    and builds for racers.  He rebuilt my Muncie, and since I needed an
    input shaft, it got to be expensive.  I'll look up the number and the
    price for tomorrow.
    Matt

    reply to .2 could you post steves Phone # and address in here .
    I will be needing to sub out a rebuild on a 4 spd saginaw trans
    for a camaro.thanx

    Continuation of the torque converter discussion from notes 63.4-.12:
    
    Tom, torque converter stall speeds are not a constant. A torque
    converter that stalls at say 2,500 rpm in a 327 powered Vega, will
    stall at a much higher speed in a blown 454 powered station wagon (just
    had to use the Goose as an example!). ;-) Vehicle weight, gear ratios
    and the amount of torque produced by the engine will affect the stall
    speed. This is the reason behind having a range for the stall speed,
    rather than just a hard number.
    
    Before purchasing a converter, you need to contact the manufacturer and
    tell them what kind of vehicle it will be going into. They should ask
    you questions about the weight, gears, tire diameter, cam, and engine
    displacement. Armed with this info, they can select the proper
    converter for your specific application.
    
    Harry
    

    Thanks Harry....blown 454 huh? Hmmmmm.
    
    /tb/

Vehicl weight will *not* affect stall speed.

Bruce

    I have a bit of a problem with my trans. Perhaps one of you guys can
    give some guidance..I have a aniversary T/A with the auto (700).I have
    had the entire engine gone through (balanced, printed, ported, etc.)
    373 rear, and a new beefed trans put in..I have had this combination 
    for a few years. I have started to have intermitent trouble with the 
    speedo..Once in a while it will not work. We have found the problem and 
    it is the actual gear in the trans..Apparently it was not put in just 
    right and now wobbles at times and when this happens the gear on the 
    cable is not turned hense no reading. To make a long store short I am 
    told the only way to repare this is to take the trans apart and put in
    a new speedo gear..!!!..
     Is this true..??..Are there any tricks I could use other
    this..??.Perhaps someway I could take the play out..??..
    
    Any help is appreciated.
    
    Jim

    
         YES! vehicle weight DOES play an important role in stall speed
    under DRIVING conditions. Under full trrottle brake stand conditions
    it does not unless the comparison engines are of lesser or greater
    power output. To give an example the factory would never put the same
    stall speed converter in a Suburban as in a nova using the same engine
    and trans combinations. (its the weight difference) If you want, we can
    start digging through about 70 or so books in my library dedicated to
    transmission service that I accumulated in my tenure at AAMCO.
        
        Another point.....Having a 2500 RPM stall converter does not mean
    that the engine needs to reach that speed to get moving. If you step on
    the gas....the vechicle will move immediatly. And you will only see a
    small percentage of slippage at cruise RPM on the highway. Not only
    that but stall speed is a function of power output....A wimpy engine
    may not be able to approach the advertised stall speed.
    
    -john

         Very good point, made in the previous note!!!  In my car (the 82
    firebird mentioned earlier) there is no problem with highway driving
    (at 2000 rmp) or with taking off from a light.  I don't notice any
    slipage at all.  To give you an example my firebird idles at 750 rpm
    and I have never had any problem with stalling or the car feeling 
    mushy.
         I too was very curious when I was told to put a (2200 stall
    converter in)  At the time I thought that the car would note leave
    a stop sign until the rpms got to 2200 but I soon found out that
    this is not the case.
    
                            Hope this helps 
                            Dave D.
    

I agree with 8 and 9, although this doesn't negate my original point. The
slip rate and average rpm with a given converter will vary greatly depending
on vehicle weight, but "stall speed" is a very specific and formal measured
value. That's what I was responding to.

Bruce

re. speedo gear

It sounds like the problem may be with the drive gear.  There are two gears.  
The drive gear and the driven gear.  If the drove gear is the problem, you
can (if the 700 is like the 350/400) get to it by removing the drive shaft 
abd then the transmission tailshaft.

Mark

    
    
    	Re .8
    
    	Good stuff! It leaves me with two questions however:
    
    	1) Define Stall Speed. What specific factors weigh into formulate
           the stall speed parameter?
    
    	2) What would be a good brand, model and stall speed of converter
    	   to go with for my application?
    
    		Application:
    		- '68 Firebird w/ Approx 550HP 455 and TH400.
		- Want the ability to drive it on the street and strip.
    
    
    	Dave

    I'm thinking of putting a th400 in my 80'Camaro.. They didn't come 
    stock with these in the later years so....can I use a crossmember
    off of an earlier Camaro or should I make the th350 member work.??
    
    Thanx,
    Mike...

    There are two things to keep in mind with the trans mount.
    
    1. How to get it to fit
    
    2. How to get duals under it.
    
    
    The fit problem can be solved on some by using the TH350 mount and
    moving it back so the front holes of the mount line up with the
    rear holes in the frame. Then you drill two new holes for the rear of
    the mount.  This doesn't work on all body types but you might get your
    tape measure out and see if it's possible. 
    
    If a mount from an earlier year can be found that handles the TH400
    you may get lucky and find one that also allowed for dual pipes.
    Without that type you will have to micky-mouse either the tranny mount
    or the driver side pipes to get under the mount....
    
    I'd look for the earlier mount for the dual exhaust TH400...make life
    lot's easier.
    
    /tb/
    
    

    
    
     I have a problem I m not able to figure out concering my car. I
    
    believe it to be a tranny problem.
    
    I drive a '72 Charger with a 400cid engine. The engine is internally
    
    stock with add-ons. By this I mean the stock manifold/carb, exuast
    
    system, ignition, and smog system have been altered. At its curreent 
    
    state the car has this set up:
    
        400cid engine/ high-rise intake manifold with a 1850 holley
        universal 4-barrel/ mallory competition ignition with a promaster
        coil/ duel exuast with eagle headers.
        727 torqflyte auto'transmission with a B&M shift kit/ 8/4 posi rearend
        ALL smog taken off.
    
    THE PROBLEM:
    
        When the car tries to shift into second gear it sometimes  revs
       
        at more than  1000rpms until it actually clicks into gear. So,
    
        if I go slow or fast it wines big time then goes into gear. It
    
        feels as if something is slipping because its not a smooth 
    
        trans-action. The last gear (kick down?) used to change at 90mph
    
        but nothing happens now. When cruising at 50mph and Id step on it
    
        the car used to "kick down" and take OFF. It does do that anymore.
    
        I looked at the kick down lever and its okay.
    
    
    Thanks for any advice.
     Tom
    
    
        

    Did this start after you made some modifications that required the
    linkages, suach as the kick-down to be removed and re installed?
    
    Not sure on that vehicle but on a GM you need to adjust the kick-down
    linkage when ever you play with it. It's a simple procedure but as I
    mentioned I'm not sure about yours. That's what it sounds like though.
    
    /tb/
    

    re:- Is the kick-down even installed??? If not, expect to rebuild the tranny if
    you continue driving it...may even be too late. If it is installed,
    adjust for full throttle, full kinkdown.
    
    Dave'
    

    
     Ive been driving 2 years with this set-up. The kickdown lever is fine.
    
    This problem has just began in the last week.
    
    tom
    

    Then the tranny just can't handle the beating, which is simular
    to what my B727 goes thru with a 440 in front of it...a rebuild every
    few years to get back to those crisp shifts. Also torque converters
    don't last forever either!
    
    Dave'
    

    
     I must admit, I do punch it quite often. (Like everytime Im in the
    
    car :-). 
      
    How much do rebuilds cost? Do they use the same one or a completely
    
    different one.
    
                  tom
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Typically around $350 here in the east cost...know idea what you'll pay
    out there, but if it's like anything else out there...you'll most
    likely pay less. Save yourself some money, and maybe future headaces
    and take it out yourself and drop it off at a shop (transmission shop).
    
    Clutches and bands are all I replace for returned crispness.
    
    Dave'
    

    
      Sounds good. Problem is that I havent been able to find a Shop Manual
    
    for my make and model. When it comes to car mechanix Im pretty much a 
    
    novice. I learn as I go along. Thanks for the advice.
    
    
    tom
    

    Does anyone know how to identify Muncie 4-speeds? I have a few complete 
    ones and a box of parts that used-to-be one. I'd like to find out how 
    to decifer the date codes on them and find out exactly what I have.
    M-21, M-20, Close ratio, wide, what do the rings on the input shaft
    mean? I believe they all have the coarse spline inputs. One has no
    rings, one has two, another has one. ??? Doesn't this tell if its a
    2.20:1 first gear or whatever? 
    
    Thanks,
    
    John

    M20 has a coarse spline with 2 grooves, wide ratio 2.52 1st 
    
    M21 has a coarse spline with 1 groove, close ratio 2.20 1st
    
    from 63-65 Muncies had no grooves
    
    
    
    Chris

    So how do I tell if the ones with no grooves are close/wide?
    Count the input/output revolutions in first gear and figure it out?
    What is the Muncie,(besides the M-22), that has a fine spline input
    shaft and large tail shaft? I was told This was an M-21...
    How about the date codes? 
    
    John

      I will take a stab at it from my limited knowledge of Muncie's.
    If it has a fine input and a large output it should be a close ratio.
    If it has no grooves I thought that meant M22, but check also for a
    tranny drain plug separate from the filler plug.  Compare the cuts of
    the gears with the inspection plate removed.  You can tell by comparing
    that the M22's gears are straighter cut.
    
    By the way the close ratio tranny's are a pain if you do not have the
    appropriate rear gears.
    
    Rich

    I have the fine input with one or two grooves (sorry I forgot), large 
    output, and it is a wide ratio.  The Chevrolet Power Manual in the
    Corvette section describes Muncies.  I'll look it up and post the
    answers.
    Matt

    re:.23
    
          Here's what I have:    All have Coarse spline input shaft.
          
    Main case casting number: Grooves:  Stamped on right side of casing, left:
                                                   -----                 ---- 
          3851325               none               P0215               G13 4516
         
          3851325               none               P0215               S110478
    
          3925660               one                P8T84                 none
    
          3885010               two                P7T21              7P187675
    
    
          Anyone have a book to look these numbers up? 
    
    
    John

    re .28
    
    	Some of the numbers "work" and some don't.  First of all, the
    casting part number (3851325) doesn't help too much.  All the different
    trannies used the same shell for the same year.  The second number
    (P0215) is the build date for the tranny.  The "P" means Muncie In.,
    the 02 mean Feb. and the 15 means the 15th.   So the first tranny was
    built on Feb 15th.  There is no info on the year.  However, there may
    be a date cast into the tranny case that would get you in the ballpark.
    The third number is the VIN of the car.  G13x4516 would probably be a
    Chevelle.
    	In 1967 the format changed a little.  The "P" still stands for
    Muncie but the next number is the last number of the year.  The next
    letter stands for the month (with a special code) and the last two are
    the day.
    	The third tranny listed would be 1968, dec 84th!!!  Could you have
    misread it?  
    	The second tranny is from a Corvette with a VIN of S110478.  Hey
    wait!!!!!!  That's the tranny that someone stole from my '63 Vette!!!!!
    Only kidding!!!!!!
    	The fourth tranny was built it 1967 Dec 21st.  7P187675 is the car
    VIN, but I wasn't able to find P as an assembly plant.  
    
    	Recheck your numbers.  As far as M22, M21, or M20, the part number
    will give you this.  Without the tag, you need to take the thing apart
    to see what you have.
    
    Regards, John

    
    	While we're at it, how about the Muncie that I took out of my
    Firebird? I don't think its original but it may be, couldn't match the
    left side number in any way with the VIN. Also, how much are these
    things worth?
    
    			Right		Left
    			-----		----
    			P7S04		7 158016

	Let me try my hand at it - November 4th 1967? That would put it about
    right for my '68 Firebird but the VIN still remains a mystery. This should
    be the last 6 digits of the actual VIN shouldn't it? The same number you'd
    find on the original engine block?

    
    	Thanks!
    
    	Dave
    

    
    
    	Quick question:
    
    	Current '79 OLDS has a TH400 out a Pontiac.  It is the
    	"short-shaft" version.  What can I use to replace it?
    	Insides were "FRIED" by #1 son this weekend....to quote
    	him, "2nd seems to be the only gear and no reverse..."
    	I have a line on a couple of TH350's but want to be sure
    	to have a match BEFORE pulling the old tranny...
    
    	Inputs appreciated...
    
    	Bryan
    

     re .30
    
    I can't help you with the numbers, but my brother has been buying and
    selling Muncie's for a few years now and a couple of months back he got
    $500.00 for an M22 in nice shape.  The M21's command lower prices
    around $300-$400 for good ones.
    
    Rich

    re. -31
    
        The TH350 you have or are looking at will bolt up as long as it is
    of the pontiac, olds, buick, caddy type. You will have to change the
    yoke from the 400 to the 350 type. Also according to which 350 you may
    get you may have a problem with the kick down mechanism.
    
    Rod.

    re .30
    Dave,  
    	You did a pretty good analysis.  However, I'm puzzled by the 
    7 158016 number.  There should be a letter where you have a space. 
    The letter would give you the assembly plant where the car with that
    VIN was built.  With that info you would know what kind of car it came
    out from.  Reply .32 is about right with the prices, except in the case
    that you could find the right person that is restoring a 1968 Corvette
    and all they need is the "original" tranny to have a matching numbers
    car!!!!  Then you could name your price.  There is a company somewhere
    that for a fee, will try to match up parts and their original cars.
    
    Regards, John
    

    
    
    	Does anyone have an opinion (sure to get a response with that
    intro...) regarding the best ATF other than synthetic that one could
    obtain? I'm looking at filling my TH-400 and my opinion is that Kendall
    is about the best in this category in fact, I've already picked up a
    case. 
    
    	Ans now after-the-fact, I am interested to know of any good ATF
    stories and what the various recommendations would be.
    
    	Dave

    Have you thought about using the B & M  Trickshift ATF?

    
    
    	I'm going to be assembling my TH400 and converter to my 455 this
    weekend and want to make sure I get the ATF in the right places at the
    right time. I have a procedure I got from a transmission shop a while
    ago regarding doing this with a TH350. I'll enter the instructions
    next, please feel free to comment on them:
    
    	1) Put about 1 pint of ATF in Torque Converter prior to assembly
    	   with transmission and engine.
    
    	2) When ready to start engine, lift vehicle so all 4 wheels are off
    	   the ground.
    
    	3) Add 4 quarts ATF to transmission.
    
    	4) Start engine and immediatly add more ATF until correct level is
    	   reached. 
    
    	5) Run transmission through all gears 2-3 times to lubricate
    	   transmission.
    
    	6) Check level, add ATF as required.  
                                            

    Dave,
    
    That is how I filled my TH-350 when I put Vega #1 together.  It worked
    fine.  4 to start and then I added about 6 more when I fired it up..
    
    Have fun installing the engine and tranny.  I installed the 327 in the
    Vega on Sunday.  The Tranny goes in tonight.
    
    Mark

    That the way I've done it..have plenty of ATF on hand and DO NOT REV
    THE ENGINE! Just a nice idle will do.
    
    /tb/
    

    Tom,
    
    The only problem with the don't rev it scenario is that in my case and
    probably Dave's too, is the engine is brandy new.  You can't idle a new 
    cam.
    
    I had a buddy there dumping ATF in as I initially set the "idle" at 
    2800 rpm to break in the cam.
    
    Mark

    It took 14 quarts to get the 4WD version (Extra deep pan) of the Turbo
    400 in the ThunderTruck(tm) to the full mark! The bands didn't engage
    until we got to around the 10 quart mark. I'd guess that you could put
    considerably more than 1 pint in the converter before starting, but
    that's probably enough to insure that things stay lubed during filling.
    
    Harry
    

    I hear ya Mark...I had the same problem once...I used 2000 RPM to break
    the cam in and it didn't foam the ATF...that's what your trying to
    avoid...you should be OK.
    
    Harry, the first time I filled one that I had drained the converter on
    I kept looking under the car to see if it was leaking out someplace!
    My instructions had a missprint that said it would take 12 pints...it
    should have said 12 quarts!
    
    /tb/
    

     On the gear problem for the 700 tranny...I assume it's a chevy 700R4??
    There are (I believe) 3 different driven gear housings...2 for sure
    that house the different gear ratios depending on what rearend gearing
    you are running. The driven gears are different colors and tooth
    pitches. There is an o-ring seal on this housing. Be sure not to damage
    this on installation (lube with tranny fluid). It could be that the
    oring has bound the proper installation of this housing and the gears
    just aren't meshing correctly. Have you changed the rear axle ratio?
     Speedometers are all corrected by knowing what percentage you are off
    in mph and adding or subtracting that many percentage in the number of
    teeth on the driven gear. Don't fall for the ol trick that 1 tooth
    equals X amount of mph when trying to correct this problem.
    
     FWIW....I've always run Ford ATF in my Chevy tranny's. I've used them
    in power glides, TH350, and mostly in the TH400's. The reason is that
    the Ford fluids will take a higher heat load than the fluid recommended
    for chevy's. I have never ever had tranny failures except in one TH350
    where the shift lever came out of the spring-clip holder internally.
    (could this be because the ford tranny's run too hot from the factory
    and wearout sooner...hence the higher quallity of fluid required? :-)  )
    
    Bruce

    Dodge truck tranny problems
    
    I have a 79 Dodge pickup with a hipo 340 and a 4 spd tranny from a 
    73 Duster 340. The input shaft bearing is on its way out. What I need 
    to know is what is the tranny number so I can order the correct input 
    shaft and bearings. I looked last night and these are the only numbers 
    I can find on it,    3A    I called a Dodge dealer and he could not find 
                       C97372 
    a match or a cross reference. I found these numbers on the passenger
    side of the tranny. Any help would be great. Any suggestions of shops
    for "resonably priced" repairs would also be helpful. I live in
    Haverhill,Ma. and work in Salem ,NH. I have one quote of $600.00 I
    think this is very high.
    
    thanks, Dana   DTN:285-3489

    Does anyone know how to figure out what driven gear is needed for the
    transmission to calibrate a speedometer?  I have a 21 tooth gear in
    there now and the speedometer reads 25% high.  Do I need a gear with
    more teeth, less teeth, and just how many more or less teedh do I need?
    
    Thanks,
    Mark

    Mark, there's a speedo shop in the Springs that can help you out. I
    can't remember the name of the place, but they're near downtown. A
    quick check of the yellow pages should find it for you. If you can't
    find a close match, they can build a ratio converter to install inline
    with the speedo cable. It costs around $50.
    
    Harry
    

    Hi,,,
    The driven gear that connects to the cable is 5 mph per tooth...
    The more teeth, the slower the speedo reading...
    
    
    				Brian...

    What kind of transmission is this for. GM TH350s can take driven gears
    from 18-29 teeth I believe. If you need more than 29 (after you do some
    multiplying ) you will need to change the drive gear as well.
    
    There are also reduction gears available that go between the cable and
    the trans...speedo shop should be able to help.
    
    /tb/

Yes, it is a TH350.  I know that at 50 mph it is reading 62.  I now have
a 21 tooth gear in there.  Based on what Brian said, a 23 should get me 
close.  

True?

Thanks,
Mark

    Mark, 
      If speedometers were linear which they are not it would take 26
    teeth. I'd bet 24 would be about right if you are not planning on
    different size rear tires.
    
                                    Jim L

.......but if it's going 25% too fast, and it's the *driven* gear, then
26 teeth should be just about right on.

	62     21
	--  X  --  =  1.0015384  = 1/10th of 1% error. That's close enough
	50     26


for government work :-).

Bruce

PS - I am *not* an expert, so if it doesn't work in a plain old arithmetic
way, then I'm lost. I can't believe that 5mph per tooth applies to any
car, with any gearing, however. (I assume that meant 5 mph at 60.)

    try lerners on the pie cut corner off of weber and sierra madre.
    
                               dave

    Hi,,,
    I was told the 5 MPH bit by a parts guy at the local chevy dealer. I
    have found this guy to be very knowledgeable. I replaced the driven
    gear in my trany with one 3 teeth larger, and it dropped aprox 15 mph.
    Maby mathimaticly that didn't happen, but I sure believe it did... (-:
    Take it for what you will...
    
    				Brian...

I have a friend in "upstate" new your who calibrates speedometer drive 
systems at street rod meets and he mentioned that:

The speedometer cable should 1000 turns per mile.  All domestic automobiles 
use this standard.  Foreign autos go as high as 1054 revs per mile.

There's an article in one of the current-issue street rod magazines 
speaking to this very subject.   I'll try and see which one it is.  I get a 
bunch of them monthly.

    The more accurate way to determine the error is to check the odometer
    reading agains mile markers. I usually do it each mile for 5 miles
    and then take the average error as the one to work with.`
    
    /tb/
    

    
        Mark...what skip said was correct. If you would like to use this
    method; I have a hand held Digital tach that can clamp onto your cable
    and tell us exactly how many times it rotates in a measured mile.
        You get the idea....Pull over at a measured mile mark, drive to the
    next one....   I am not in the building this week but I will be back
    on the 24th....Let me know.  With this method we can be accurate
    to within .00001%  (-;
    
    -john

Once you have the odometer reading correctly the needle should read 
correctly as well.  If the oddo is correct and the needle isn't, the speedo 
head will have to be degaussed and re-magnetized before adjustments to the 
return spring can be made.

The return spring's linearity across the entire range of the needle 
movement is dependent on specific drag induced by the magnetic drive 
mechanism.

This is a job for a speedometer calibration shop because simply "adjusting" 
the return spring will only make the needle accurate for a narrow window 
within the entire range.  Calibration shops have the necessary equipment to 
properly magnetize the drive mechanism first.

skip

The article RIGHT ON was in the August '91 Rod & Custom magazine.

Essentially, you remove the speedo cable from the speedo and count the 
revolutions over a specified distance.  (or use a counter like John 
Kalinowski has)

Typically, folks measure out 52' 9 1/2" and count the revs whilst 
traveling this distance.

52' 9 1/2" is 1/100 of a mile (52.8')

You should have exactly 10 revolutions for traveling 1/100 of a mile.

If you count the revolutions and carefully approximate the last fractional 
revolution you can then multiply the result by 100 to get the revs per 
mile.  It should equal 1000 for a domestic speedometer.  Japanese 
speedometers will be slightly higher while European speedometers will be in 
the 15XX range.  (The number of revs per mile is usually silk screened on 
the dial of KPH/MPH European speedometers)

Take the gear out of your transmission, count the teeth and apply the 
following formula:

 # of teeth on your speedo X number of revs per mile gear / number of 
teeth required on speedo gear X 1000 

or;

number of teeth in your gear X number of revolutions per mile
_____________________________________   =  # of teeth required in new gear
         1000

     Also, as I mentioned earlier, when a parts man tells you one tooth
    equals "X" miles per hour, he doesn't know what he is talking about.
    The speedo is corrected as Skip pointed out if you have time to do
    that. The easiest method is to use the mile markers or someone elses
    car and mark off a mile. Check your odometer against this and figure
    out the % off. In your case 25%. Pull the driven gear and add or
    subtract 25% of the number of teeth on the driven gear.
    25% of 21 is 5.25. So you need a driven gear with 26.25 teeth or 26
    rounded off.
     Remember teeth are figured in percentages not the shade tree method of
    1 tooth equals X miles per hour.
    
    BB

    Thanks for all the input.  I've not had time to work on it and probably
    won't this week.  John K. loaned me his tach to do the speedo cable rev 
    count.  I wanted to get my new wheels and tires installed so I'd only 
    have to do the calibrarion once.
    
    Now the rear tires are having a close personal relationship with the
    fender lip.  As soon as that gets solved, I'll mark off a mile and use
    John's tach to check things out.
    
    Mark

    
    
    	Well, the next topic to address regarding the Moderator's tire
    burning 455 Firebird is the transmission. I noticed quite early on that
    the shifting of my TH-400 wasn't quite as crisp as one might want it,
    in fact the shifting between 2nd and 3rd doesn't happen at all under
    hard acceleration unless you back off on the throttle a bit. Doesn't
    make any difference if you shift it automatically or not.
     
    	Tonight, I finally got ahold of my transmission builder Al, to tell him
    about the problem. He was not a happy camper. He said that the problem
    was probably one of the valve body and recommended that I pull the pan
    and re-torque the valve body bolts. If that doesn't fix it, he said
    we'd have to pull the tranny and put it back on the bench. I asked him
    if the ATF I was using could have anything to do with it. He said not
    unless you're using that B&M Trick-Shift crap! Al's going to come over
    to my house on Wednesday night and we're going for a ride. 
    
    	Anyone ever had these kind of problems with a TH-400 before? What
    did it turn out to be? Al gave me a 12 month warranty so I plan to get
    him to at least help me fix this problem. More to follow....
    
    
    	Dave 

Dave,

Did he say anything about the converter contributing to soft shifts?  When you
took me for a ride, the tranny seemed to shift ok, just soft.  I did not notice
any rpm increase like it was slipping on a shift.  

After riding in your Firebird, the Vega seems slow.  I may have to pull the 
engine next winter and "tweek" it.  That 455 is one running beast!  You do need
to enhance the traction a little bit though...

Your speedometer correction should be easy.  I just did mine.  It cost $35 for
a ratio adaptor box and they can make one with any ratio that you need.  It is
now only off by 2mph which is quite acceptable.  Then you wouldn't have to use 
your correction chart anymore.  :-)

Mark

    Dave and Mark, I'll be in Colorado around the first week in August on
    my way to a huge 4WD event in the Glenwood Springs area. Please plan on
    taking me for some 'joy rides'!!!! :-)
    
    Harry
    

Harry,

You got it!  A warning though, my Vega is rather tame in comparison to Dave's 
Firebird.  Just let us know when.  If you want cheap lodging while in the 
Springs, I always have have room at the house. BTW, if you're interested, the 
Super Chevy Show is either (can't remember) the first or second weekend of 
August up at Bandimere.

Mark

    
    
    	We'll do it Harry! Just hope my tranny isn't in 2000 peices all
    over my shop at that time. Remember your eyeball reinforcers to keep
    'em in the right shape!
    
    	Dave

    Dave,
    Just hand Harry a 16oz. Bud, hit the loud peddle and he'll be just
    fine.
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim
    
    he'll have to come up East way next spring to find out what power
    to weight ratio really is....i.e. low cubes/low weight...  :-)
    Sorta like the Vaga, only in a Ford model.

    Dave,
    
    I had a similar problem with the TH400 in my race car. It turned out to
    be a shattered piston in the high gear clutch pack. The piston looks
    like a ring and is about 3/8" thick and is pushed by the seals. It
    started as a balky 2-3 shift and progressed to no high gear. It also
    burned the high gear clutches. Maybe a check of pump pressure might
    also be in order.
    
    Don Berry

    
    	Oh yea, I'd better update you all on the status of the tranny in my
    Firebreather.
    
    	Ol' Al said "Yea that's not very good" when I took him for a ride,
    so I took in the car to the shop to have him have a look at it. What he
    did is to adjust the pressure regulator. Now, the 1-2 shift is quite
    crisp and will break the tires off the pavement. But the 2-3 shift is
    still a little soft, can't break the tires loose. Called up Al and he
    said said that he'd have to disassemble the transmission to fix that
    up. I decided that it probably isn't worth it. Just hope it doesn't get
    worse. If I was building the car purely for race, I might be concerned.
    
    	We'll see....
    
    	Dave 

    
    Dave,
    
    I just reduced the pressure in my turbo 400 because it was shattering
    the pressure ring in the high gear clutch pack. The symptom was a
    fading 2-3 upshift until finaly 3rd and reverse were gone. Replacing
    the clutches, seals and steel plates is a simple operation that can be
    done without any special tools. For the best results get clutches for
    an Allison (they have a waffel pattern) and set the clearance to about
    .060". Also replace the intermediate snap ring with a heavy duty one.
    All the parts for mine cost less than $50. If you have any questions
    let me know.
    
    db

For 80,000 miles the stock Borg-Warner T-5 in my 1988 Mustang GT has provided 
excellent service.  Much better then its reputation would have predicted.  I
figure that changing the fluid every 5,000 to 10,000 miles, and not using 
slicks at the dragstrip, is responsible for its longevity.  I showed no mercy
while making hundreds on strictly powershifting runs.  Hell, it even survived 
a short stint with nitrous oxide!

So what the hell happened?!

In the last 10,000 miles, and less then 100 runs at the strip, I've ruined 2
3rd gears and 2 mainshafts.  Neither has failed, but both have suffered 
irrepairable damage such that I get strong whine and shifter vibration while
in 4th and 5th gear.  I beleive the problem to be roller bearing indentations
on the mainshaft, and 3rd gear.  Apperently the roller sleeve that 3rd gear 
rides on is denting the mainshaft and the gear - presumably upon engagement
while powershifting.  In 4th and 5th gear, third is freewheeling on the 
mainshaft and vibrating/resonating while the rollers go in and out of the 
indentations.  This is my best determination at whats making the noise.  After
numerous teardowns, the roller impressions are the ONLY damage to the gearbox.
I bought a new Motorsport (2.95:1 low) T-5, which is showing the same damage;
although its not hitting the resonant vibration yet.  I can here the prelude
frequency of whinning, and I'm sure the vibration is coming.

At $230-$380 for a new mainshaft at oil change intervals I have to do something!
So far, the only solution I can come up with is to not powershift 3rd gear :-(.
This makes me unhappy - and I don't know that I can accept this solution.  I 
want a balanced combination that I can thrash - I've made all the sacrifices I
want to by not running slicks.  I am truly deadwall frustrated.

I welcome *any* helpful suggestions.

Eric.

    Since you're having recurrent and similar problems with two different
    transmissions after so many trouble free miles, I'd look for externally
    for the source of your problem.
    
    I'd start by checking or maybe replacing the pilot bearing.  A worn
    one will allow the transmission input shaft to wobble and wreak havoc
    with your gears and bearings.
    
    Rick

    Eric,
    You could always go back to a Top Loader....  :-)
    
    Actually I don't like to hear the results of wear and brakage on the
    T-5. That's what I have for the Falcon. I will be hauling a little
    less weight, so maybe it will live alittle longer. Slicks.....Who
    ME??? With the four link it should hook up well, but for how long
    who knows...
    
    TMW.

RE: Rick	I was thinking along these lines, and spent much time checking
external things - Bellhousing alignment, replace pilot bearing, replace release
bearing, have the driveshaft balanced, and check crankshaft endplay.  The clutch
housing was out of alignment, with 0.012 face runout and 0.017 bore runout, but
I'm not sure how this problem shows itself in the real world.  Everything else
was either good or perfect.  I am pretty sure that the problem is that I have 
surpassed the load limit of a perfectly setup T-5.  I added 60 more HP; maybe 
30 more lb. ft.; and a centrifugal assisted clutch.  

I am going to take out the southside lift bars and install the stock lower
rear control arms with 1 or both bushings changed to urethane.  I replaced them
because I was getting wheel hop at the track.  The lift bars don't really have
bushings; just a 1/8" thick hard nylon sleeve wrapped around the metal mounting
pin.  Having these solid mounts on the lower arms is said to cause driveline 
wear.  How much I don't know.  Powershifting at redline with a centrifugally
assisted clutch, stiff sidewalled tires, and solid control arm bushings has
got to produce an extremely severe shock load.  

Maybe I need to try wrinkle wall tires :-).

Regardless of failures and shockloads, and all the other words I use to describe
stuff I don't really understand, I'm heading up to Epping tomorrow night to
give my car a proper and thorough thrashing :-).

RE: TMW
I need the overdrive to turn reasonable rpm's on the highway.  The toploader
is not yet an option.  Actually, you're not the only one to suggest this; a 
couple of machine shops have said the toploader is my only real alternative if
I want to bang gears.  Oh well...

Eric

I said I was going to post this a long time ago:

Steve Eaton
Performance Transmission Service
Shrewsbury 508-842-0672

Hi,

I have a couple question about transmissions in general:

I've heard that manual transmissions cannot be used with engine that have a lot
of horse power, instead, automatic transmissions or shift kits must be used.  

1.  Is this true?

if TRUE 
then
  2. Why?

  3. What does a shift kit do exactly?
endif

When reading descriptions of transmissions, I see the number C6, C4 or
C-something used. What do these mean?

Thank in advance,
Dave.

>1.  Is this true?
It depends on the power and torque of the engine, the transmission design,
and condition of the transission.  A borg and warner T5 might blow up in an
application where a Doug Nash Engineering 5 speed would work fine.

>  2. Why?
Because some guys build a new 450 horse engine, and put a 25 year old Saginaw
behind it.

>  3. What does a shift kit do exactly?
Better answered by someone else.

>When reading descriptions of transmissions, I see the number C6, C4 or
>C-something used. What do these mean?
It's a model number of a Ford automatic tranny.
Matt

Both stick and automatic transmissions are available that can take really
beefy amounts of torque, and when you're discussing drivetrains, torque is
the issue you need to be concerned with. Horsepower is only important when
you're worried about high rpm clutch or torque convertor explosions. That is,
large amounts of horsepower are generated by making torque at high rpm, so
rpm becomes the issue instead of horsepower.

In high-torque combinations, though, automatic transmissions tend to be easier
on drivetrain components, and this is one of the reasons they've gotten popular
with hot rodders.

Think of it this way:

Your drivetrain, from the back of the crankshaft all the way to the drive
wheels, only "sees" the output of a single cylinder at a time, in the form
of a "pulse" of torque. These pulses can be very strong ones in the case of
a good-sized engine. With a clutch acting as the link between the engine and
the rest of the drivetrain, the torque pulses are transmitted directly,
resulting in some level of load on all parts. Note that the flywheel is in place
for stick cars as a "buffer", in that it resists speeding up or slowing down,
thus tending to smooth the torque pulses a bit. It's also a terrific place to
hang a clutch :-). An automatic trans has a torque convertor in place of the
clutch, which attaches to a "flexplate", instead of the flywheel. A flexplate
performs the same functions as a flywheel (convenient place to hang a torque
convertor, convenient place to hang a starter motor, torque-pulse smoothing),
except that it's typically lighter than a flywheel. A torque convertor uses two
sets of paddles submerged in oil to transmit torque, and there is no direct
mechanical hookup between them. One set of paddles is driven by the engine, and
these paddles tend to get the oil rotating in unison with their rotation. The
other set of paddles gets coerced into moving because the oil is banging into
them, and those paddles are directly attached to the input shaft of the
transmission. As an aside, you can see that a flexplate can be lighter than a
flywheel, since the torque convertor itself has mass that will resist speeding
up or slowing down, and since there is no direct mechanical connnection between
the paddle sets, so the *oil* acts as a buffer of torque pulses.

As yet another aside :-), what I've actually described as a torque convertor is
really a fluid coupling. A torque convertor multiplies torque at stall by
virtue of one or more "stator wheels", placed between the two sets of paddles,
which redirect the flow of oil striking the driven paddles, thus providing
more efficient flow of torque, with less oil turbulence and cavitation.

Regardless of whether it's a fluid coupling or a torque convertor, the fluid
connection effectively acts as a shock absorber, so, for any given level of
torque production, a drivetrain is likely to live longer with an automatic than
with a stick.

When you're talking a dynamic situation, such as a drag race, an automatic will
also tend to be kinder to drivetrain parts than a stick, because you can't just
rev 'er up and drop the clutch, which tends to generate some really world-class
shock loads. Likewise, down track, an automatic is by definition power shifted,
but, unlike a stick, where power is interrupted by clutch disengagement while
the engine continues to rev, then reapplied with a bang as the clutch is
engaged and the engine is dragged back down to car speed, an automatic actually
begins to disengage its internal clutches in one gear while it is applying
clutches in the next gear, so power application is more continuous, and there is
less unloading and subsequent loading of the drivetrain, with less attendant
shock loads.

The bottom line: Automatics win the drivetrain longevity wars, everything else
being equal.

They may also win the *engine* longevity wars, since a missed shift under power
can blow an engine, and automatics are more trustworthy in this regard than
humans - at least *this* human :-).

Another reason why automatics are popular is that, in bracket racing, they tend
to be more consistent than sticks, and consistency is the key to winning in
bracket racing, as opposed to sheer speed.

Lastly, in a relatively small number of cases cases, automatics can be faster
than sticks, largely because, in traction limited situations, the smoother power
delivery may make for quicker launches.

Having said that, however, sticks *are* quicker than automatics, everything else
being equal and given reasonable driver skill, for a couple of reasons. First,
automatics take more engine power to run because they require internal oil
pressure to function, and the internal oil pump saps power to develop that
pressure. Second, they don't operate as efficiently in transmitting power as a
stick does, because of slippage in the torque convertor, which turns into heat.
Power is power, so that which ends up as heat is not going into the drive wheels
as *kinetic* energy. Third, sticks tend to have more gear ratios than automatics,
so rpm drop between gears is typically greater with an automatic. Even with a
like number of gears, automatics may have more rpm drop between each gear. An
example would be matching a 4-speed Muncie, top-loader, or some such against
a late model 700R4 or AOD. The 4-speed sticks have a 1 to 1 fourth, while the
autos use an *overdrive* fourth, so the ratio spread between first and fourth
is greater with the automatic than with the stick. Result: More rpm drop
between gears.

RPM drop is a no-no, in the sense that horsepower drops as rpm drops, and
horsepower is a convenient shorthand way to describe the available
belt-in-the-back at any given car speed. Less rpm drop between gears translates
into better ETs and trap speeds with any given power-to-weight ratio.

Re: Shift kits. These are modifications to autos that speed up the process of
simultaneous clutch engagement and disengagement, thus speeding up shifts, and
limiting heat production and wear caused by internal clutch slippage during the
shift process. Any automatic is likely to live longer under duress with a
well designed shift kit. A bonus is that the car will likely be quicker and more
consistent in a race.

Whew! Got carried away, there :-).

Bruce

    Great explanation, Bruce.
     Now can anyone describe how the new "lock-up torque converters" work?
                                                                John M.
    

They use a clutch, somewhere in the general vicinity :-).

Really.

It'a a small clutch, because it's typically engaged only under low-torque cruise
conditions (plus you never need to slip it), and it's electrically/hydraulically
activated. More often than not, it's somewhere between the engine and torque
convertor driven element, and it drives the power straight through, thus
eliminating the torque convertor function entirely.

On Ford AODs, I believe it's behind the torque convertor, in the front of the 
trans, and they transmit power through a double (shaft within a hollow shaft)
input shaft arrangement, which unfortunately crunches when you toss a lot of
torque through it, unless you get one machined out of unobtanium, or some such.

Bruce

PS - john K., tell us more if you're around.......

Thanks for the indepth explanation.

One more question: What does "Top-Loader" mean.


Dave

It's a type of Ford 4-speed gearbox from the sixties and early seventies. The 
700R4 is a late GM 4-speed automatic (3-speed plus overdrive 4th), and the AOD
is a late Ford 4-speed auto with OD 4th, similar to the GM box, but with closer
ratios - meaning it's a dog off the line but then has less rpm drop between
shifts than the 700R4.

Bruce

    A Toploader has it's access panel on TOP. Not on the side
    where the shift forks make it tough to remove.
    
    Incredibly strong!
    re

Has anyone ever tried to change the shift points on their TH-350?  I think that
it is a function of the governor.

Currently with my foot planted firmly on the floor the tranny (in Drive) shifts
at 5000 and I would like to change that to something like 6000 rpm.

B&M, or someone, makes a kit with governor springs and weights but, I have never
messed with any of this type of work.  Have any of you?

Thanks,
Mark

    Talk to Bob Lynch over a Champion Auto...
    
    				Brian...

I did it to mine...basically you try differtent combinations 
of springs and weights in the gov...it's a bit of a pain because you have to
keep trying combinations 'till you get what you want.

You can control the top RPM point for both 2nd and 3rd.

Mine shifts into 2nd at 5200 and 3rd at 5000 - if I have some time I'll
change it up a couple of hundered some day.

It's really great at the drags...just put it in DRIVE and nail the
loud pedal and watch the world go by!

/tb/

For all like-minded technoids that need to know; the Borg-Warner T-5 manual
transmission weighs 75 lbs..  I weighed my transmission, from a 1988 Mustang GT,
but I would expect that the T-5 used in various Chevy V8's weighs the same.

Eric

Is it safe to generally assume that if a torque converter stall speed is, say,
1700 RPM (stock) as listed in the manual and actually reads something like
2000 RPM, the engine is producing more torque than what the stock engine/tranny
combination is rated at?

I ask because this scenario is exactly what's happening with my car.  I added
a few goodies and the most change occurred with a cam change, which I expected.

I'd like to know if there's a general mathematical rule that will approximate
the torque output of an engine given the difference in the stall speeds before
and after modifications.  For example, X ft. lbs/100 RPM.  Is the resistance
the converter exerts a linear function? If not, at what point does it become
non-linear?

I realize that this will be imprecise, but a ballpark figure is good enough.

Chris

(Cross posted in CARBUFFS, note 291.114, Ford Automatic Transmissions topic)

A call to the tech line of any of the aftermarket torque convertor folks (TCI,
Art Carr, B & M, etc.) ought to give you as good a source of information as you
can get.

Let us know.

Bruce

    
    
    	What's everyone's favorite manual transmission oil additive? I've
    heard of a few, namely Slick-50 and Hilton Hyper-Lube but have also
    heard of others that transmission repair shops/personnel recommend but
    I haven't heard of any names. There's a few mysterious additives that
    the guys who push them say "If you put some of this stuff in, your
    gearbox will last for ever!"
    
    	Comments?

...........but I like Red Line products, in whatever flavor. MTL, 75W-90NS, etc.

Bruce

    
    	I've got a TH700-R4 transmission that I'm going to be changing the
    ATF in. As we all knwo, simply dropping the pan only gets rid of about
    half of the ATF, the other half is in the torque converter and in other
    'inaccesible' parts of the transmission. The problem is how do you
    change ALL of the ATF.
    
    	I've heard it said that one way this can be done is to do the
    normal pan-drop ATF change first. Then disconnect the return line from
    the ATF cooler (on the radiator) to the transmission, start the engine
    and let the ATF drain out of the disconnected tube until you start
    getting new ATF out the tube. Then turn the engine off and top off the
    transmission. This leads me to have some questions:
    
    	1) Is this an 'approved' way of getting rid of all your old ATF?
           Has anyone done this? Is there anything you need to watch out
    	   for?
    
    	2) Which of the two lines connecting to the transmission is the
    	   return line - the upper or the lower one?
    
    	Thanks!
    
    	Dave 

    
    Dave,
    
    While this method might exchange some fluid in the trans cooling
    system, most of the inaccessable fluid is in the converter. The only
    way to really flush the converter is outside the car on a special
    machine to flush converters. I have had my race converter flushed after
    major transmission failures to remove any metal that might be left. 
    
    If the transmission in the vehicle is in good condition, then the
    dilution of the old and new fluids would not really be a problem. You
    might consider changing the fluid again after a 1000 or so miles to
    really get as much new fluid in as possible.
    
    Have you considered synthetic ATF?
    
    Don B
    

You can always switch over to a MoPar trans.  Their converters have drain 
plugs in them.  :-)

    
    Re: 93
    
    Yea, I've considered synthetic ATF but the problem still is how to get
    all of the non-synthetic (and dirty) ATF out so you don't defeat the
    (expensive) synthetic ATF too badly. I was considering using Kendall or
    Castrol ATF. More affordible than synthetic and good enough...
    
    Re: 94
    
    Drain plug kits are available for GM transmissions but you still have
    the problem of how to get all the ATF out plus you'd have the
    additional problem of not being able to change the filter unless you
    did pull the pan...
    
    I guess the ATF doesn't get pumped through the torque converter... or
    does it? If id did, my method of pulling the cooling return line on the
    transmission and draining out the ATF until new ATF came out may work.
    Anyone know which is the pressure line and which is the return line? I
    can't find it anywhere in any of my manuals.
    
    Dave 

    Dave, to find the return line, start the engine cold and feel the
    lines. The one that gets hot first (in a couple of minutes usually) is
    the feed line. The other is the return line. :-)
    
    If things are hooked right, the one going to the bottom of the cooling
    unit should be the pressure side and the upper one the return side.
    This makes sure that the cooler stays full of fluid for maximum heat
    transfer.
    
    Harry
    

    
         Do the converter drain the way its done at transmission shops.....
    (at ours, anyway) Remove the old 700's filter, and cut off the pickup
    tube from the old filter body. Then you get a new or extremly clean
    2 gallon pail and solder a .5" nipple at the bottom side of the pail.
    Sit the pail on the hood and connect the bucket to the old filter neck
    that you shoved back into the valve body. Fill the bucket with 5 new
    quarts of atf and start the engine......your converter is now completly
    flushed of its old oil. At out shop we have adapters made for every
    automatic on the planet. Making one for a 200R4 or 700R4 just requires
    your old filter.  OOps!  don't use heater hose that was ever used for
    anything else. When you build this contraption, get a piece of brand
    new half inch heater hose to connect the bucket to the valve body.
    5 new quarts of oil is actually overkill as this will actually flush
    the converter twice.  But what the hell.....atf is cheap.
    
    -john

hi

I have a 1974 Nova with a trany that is give me some problems.  The old
girl has decided that reverse and third gear are no longer required for
day to day operation.

I can shift into Drive with no problems but when I get up to speed it
will not go into third.  When I shift into Reverse, the car will move
backward VERY slowly (about a snails pace).  If I give gas it will move
a bit faster, but just barely.  If I am going down a hill and shift into
"2" it will drop down.

Anyone know what the problem might be?  I will most likely have to take
this in to get fixed but I would like some idea of what it might be before.

Thanks
Dave.

A friend of mine had a '73 Omega (Novaclone) and had trouble getting it to
upshift.  The kickdown cable was rusty to the point where it was holding the
transmission in too low a gear all the time.

It's a longshot, but WD-40 beats any trip to the transmission shop.  I doubt
this cable would be affecting the reverse gear situation, though.

Just check the simple stuff first.


steve

    I had a '74 Apollo (Novaclone) and when I got stuffed into the wall
    at Riverside Park Speedway the whole transmission stopped working.

    Seriously, I don't think it's the linkage, since he's loosing reverse
    also.  It sounds like it's positivly shifting into the proper gear
    (confirmed by going in reverse) so it's not a cabling issue.  The
    problem sounds like the clutches in R and 3rd are shot.  How does the
    trans fluid look?  Have you checked it?  Does it look like somethings
    burnt up inside?
    
    A test drive at the trans shop can't cost that much, if anything.
    They'd be able to confirm the trannys on the way out, or give you
    an idea of what you need to fix it (or how much it'll cost for them
    to fix).
    
    MadMike

    
    The high gear clutch pack is smoked. It is used is both 3rd and
    reverse. If you pull the trans out and remove the pump (with a slide
    hammer) the high gear pack is the first one that you remove. For about
    $40 in parts you can fix it yourself.
    
    Don
    

    I am in need of an exploded view drawing and parts list for an older
    Doug Nash 4+1 race version 5 speed transmission. Richmond Gear has
    taken over DNE and only have literature for 4+1's manufactured after
    mine which I believe is early 1970's. Anyone have literature or know
    anyone who may that I can obtain a copy from?
    
    Thanks,
    
    John

Gentlemen,
	I've got a  '71 C4 with B&M shift kit that appears to be stuck. The car
was garaged all winter, started monthly and pulled out then back into the bay.
Only 1st and reverse were excercized, although I did  run the shifter throughout
the entire range each time.

	This past weekend, I took the thing out and onto the street, where I
discovered it seemed to be stuck in 1st. Pulling out of the bay, it was in 1,
then when on the street, I manually shifted it to 2, then to D, all at speeds
below 25mph. When going from 1-2, it shifted smartly, however when going from
2-D, it seemed to return to 1st.

	The shift kit was installed three years ago, the fluid changed once
since then, so it's not a faulty installation.  Is it conceivable that the
kickdown valve/plunger is stuck in the valve body? Wouldn't this condition
preclude manual shifting entirely?  The kickdown linkage moves freely, without
binding of any sort.  Is there a shifting sequence I can try to free the valve
or must I resign myself to the fact that I have to pull the valve body?

Chris

    most automatic transmissions shift based on vaccuum.
    if the vaccuum line is disconnected you will be able to shift manually
    ok but it wont shift automatically in drive.
    
    
    
    Brian V