Conference napalm::musclecars

    I think I might be able to squeeze it in here.
    It is a question about emmisions .I want to build a pro street vega
    or mabe a chevette.Say I chose to use my 81 Chevette for the project
    It would have a 396with hiborn fuel injection.Now with the emmision
    laws being what they are . Will I be able to get it inspected. Will
    it have to pass a sniffer test .this would help to decide if I should
    go this root .thanks

    
    In mass all cars 15 years old or less have to be sniffed.  If you have
    a relative in another state, it would probably be easiest to register
    the car there.  Then since you'd never drive to that state, it wouldn't
    matter if you didn't have thier inspection sticker here in Mass.  OF
    course, I don't recommend violating any motor vehicle regulations. ;-)
    Matt

    	If you go with an 81 car, you should be able to get it to pass. In
    fact, the emission to the mid '80's aren't too bad. I have a 79 sunbird
    with 350 (no cat/open air cleaner/600 Holley/ect...) and it  always
    passes, no problem. If at worst, adjust the idle circuit.

    	One tip that I got from a friend, which I haven't had to use, yet.
    If you're too high on emissions, run your tank down, and put 1/2 gal of 
    drygas in it. Then put a couple of gallons of gas. This mixture will
    contain  allot of alcohol, which burns very clean, and leaner than gas
    by about  50% (by leaner, I mean it takes twice as much alcohol to
    perform the same amount of work as gas. This is what I am told. Others
    may disagree). I am told this works. Like I've said, I haven't tried
    it. If all else fails, you will be able to get inspected SOME WHERE.
    :*))

    	CB

    Hi,
    
    I need to ask a question regarding Gas....
    
    What is the difference between leaded and unleaded gas?  Is it power?
    pollution? what are the pro's and con's
    
    What changes are there is the cars motor that runs leaded and unleaded?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ron.

    
    
    Re -.1
    
    Ron,
    
      Basicly, Leaded gas was used in `72 and earlier motors. Lead adds
    more octaine [power], but awful pollution. The difference in engine is
    that the "lesd motors" have valve train components that are made out
    of a softer metal, requiring the lead to act as a friction lubricant.
    Running a "lead motor" on todays gas, without lead additive in the gas,
    could deterioate your motor to destruction within a few thousand miles.
    
      So the Pro's are more octaine & proper lubricatioin for those older
    high compression engines. the cons are that lead gas is not sold at gas
    pumps any more, so generaly you have to carry around plenty of "lead
    additive" to mix with, every time you pull up to the pump.
    
      A lot of people with the older engines, when they have them rebuilt,
    have the mechanic install newer "hardened" type valve train components,
    so they can run the motor on unleaded gas, generally Super Unleaded 93
    or 94 octaine.
    
      My motor in my `71 Charger is a `74 400 big block, but the cylinder
    heads are out of a `63 426 max wedge big block(soft valve components).
    When I had the heads redone, I couldn't afford to upgrade yet, so I
    have to always mix lead additive to my gas. I use "REAL LEAD" additive,
    which is not a synthitic additive, it's the real thing. More expensive,
    but it makes the gas just like it used to be in the late 60's......
    
    
                       Hope this helps,
    
                           Mike Roberge
                 

Unleaded gas is *much* kinder to spark plugs and exhaust systems than
leaded gas. The only two issues are the potential deterioration of the valve
seats, and the potential for pinging, in those high compression engines
originally built to run with leaded gas. Reply 1 stated this, but it might not
have been clear because of the references to "valve train components".

So, if you have an engine originally designed for use with leaded fuels, it
will last a long time running on unleaded, *provided* you do not have a
significant problem with pinging (retard the spark somewhat if you
must), and *provided* you drive it gently. Running hard on unleaded will
cause the valve seats to deteriorate much much more quickly. I don't agree
with reply 1 regarding potential destruction within a few thousand miles,
unless the engine is pinging badly during normal driving. It's only the
valve seats, particularly the exhaust, that we're talking about here.

More octane only means more power if you *need* the octane to avoid
pinging. Otherwise, you could make a case that more octane than the engine
needs will give you potentially *less* power, because higher octane gas
burns more slowly than lower octane gas.

Bruce

    RE -.1
    
      Bruce,
    
       Thanks for your additional note, it helped clear some things up for
    me, also.  When I Mentioned "possibile destruction within a few
    thousand miles", I was refering to engines that we're driven hard &
    worst case seniro. i.e.- The engine rebuilder that did my motor warned
    me about my heads, and told me about a motor he did for a kid at the
    beginning of last summer(70 340 Duster [soft valve seats]). Apparently
    the kid didn't know he was supposed to use lead additive. 2months after
    the rebuild(&~2000miles of thrashing) the kid came back to complain
    that he was having terrible engine troubble. My friend felt
    responsibble and tor it down to find the problem. Well they found the
    problem alright, The valves we're sunken so bad they we're almost in
    the oil pan!;-)!!!! They had to throw out the heads and start over.
    Very expensive for the kid that didn't know what he had.  - - - and
    yes!, that was only 2000 miles, but plenty of thrashing too....
    
    
    
                       Miker
    

    re: .5 - interesting!! What intake are you using and what did you do to
    get the ports to line up?
    
    Stan

    
    I'll be putting my '69 Barracuda back on the road soon with the
    original engine configuration; 1969 383 block and heads, 10.5:1
    compression.
    
    I see two choices for fuel.  Put octane and lead additives in today's
    gas or make a trip to a station that has racing gas each time I get
    low.  The racing gas is leaded, 110 octane, and $2.40/gal.
    
    Are the additives sufficient?  They sure would be more convenient. 
    Don't know about cost.
    
    Thanks, Kris

    
    re-.1,
    
    Kris,
    
      The easyist way(the way I do it), is to buy "REAL LEAD 104+" lead &
    octaine boost additive, by the folks who make OCTAINE BOOST 104+(1 pint
    red can). The "REAL LEAD 104+" comes in a gray 1qt can and treats 20
    gallons per qt. It is the real stuff(lead) with 104+ octaine boost, so
    you get your lead & octaine boost in one "easy to carry in the trunk"
    can. You buy the stuff at any automotive store, and it costs varys
    store to store, but generally is $7-$9 a can. So, you put a can in at
    the pump($9/20=$0.45/gal) and it's gonna cost you 45cents a gallon,
    then mix super unleaded at ~~$1.45/gal. And what you get is $1.90/gal
    leaded gas at ~99 octaine that you can fill up anywhere. You are all
    set (just carry extra cans with you).........
    
    
                           Mike Roberge
     

	Summit racing equipment sells six packs of the 1qt 104+ real lead
	cans for $31.50 plus shipping plus a $5 UPS hazardous materials 
	charge.  That'll drop your cost/gallon of treated fuel by about 
	$0.10 or more.

	--Dave

For lack of a better place to put this...

I will be redoing the fuel system in the Vega while I have the rearend out.  I
will be rerouting the fuel line, running a larger (3/8" instead of the stock 
5/16") line, and installing a Carter electric fuel pump.

There is a reasonable chance that I will be running N2O once the car is running
and sorted out.  I was told by a local shop that I should run a separate fuel 
system and pump just to feed the nitrous system.  This sounds like overkill for
a what I plan to be a relatively "mild" installation.

What do you nitrous experts think? 

Mark

Do it.

Do it right.

Overkill it.



At least twice :-).

Bruce

    N2O  needs an ample fuel supply. If the sucker ever leaned out on you, 
    KABOOMSKI !!!!
    
    I've seen some systems advertised lately with a pressure sensor that
    shuts down the nitrous system if fuel pressure drops below a certain
    amount. This would be cheap insurance in ANY nitrous installation.
    
    Stan

      From my experience with nitrous I had no problems with the
    stock fuel system.  This was on a 350 Chevy with a quadrajet and
    a 125 horse nitrous kit.
    
    Rich

    
    
    	I've heard it said that one can manufacture hi-octane fuel by
    taking pump gas and mixing it with methanol. Is this true? If so, where
    does one typically get methanol and what ratios of gas/methanol produce
    what octane equivalents?
    
    

Methanol is about 99 octane, so it should raise octane in a mix.  I don't
know where to get it in quantity (try a performance automotive place), but
if you just want to experiment with a tankful, I think solvent alcohol at
a paint shop is methanol, or you can buy a bunch of gasline antifreeze (get
the cheap kind, the other kind is isopropyl alcohol)

If you start using a large portion of alcohol, you may have to rejet the
carb.  Methanol has a different fuel-air ratio than gasoline.

-Mike

    Isn't methanol another name for methyl alcohol? If it is, it's 
    methyl hydrate or "wood alcohol" and available at most any drug
    store or drug supplier. Used to use it to mix model airplane fuel.
    Can be bought in up to 5 gallon quantities.
    
    JC

Figure 2:1 on the jetting for alcohol (I think it's actually 2.2:1), so
a 10% alcohol content will make you around 5% lean, etc.

Bruce

    I don't think 10% is practical, less it's summertime. Cold
    weather reduces the amount gasoline can absorb, but i've
    ran 5% with no problem. And do remember it's corrosive,
    especially to brass/copper/alum etc. Tests show running 10%
    (gasahol) requires fuel system maint. every three years due
    to corrosion. Amazing what it does for the soggy bottom end
    on four cylinders though. Nice torque boost!
    
    Randy

    In view of some of the conversation going on in the "Firebird" note, I 
    have a question which I thought should probably go here...
    
    Some of you have mentioned buying 94 octane leaded gasoline. I've
    recently put my '68 442 restoration project on the road. I've used
    some of the additives mentioned here (REAL LEAD 104+, etc.) along with
    super unleaded in the past, ... I was wondering where you've found that
    one can buy real leaded hi-test at the gas pump these days? I live in
    Southborough, MA, and work in Shrewsbury. Are there any sources around
    here?
    
    Thanks for any suggestions!

re .21

Sorry, I can't be of much help to you as I live in Colorado Springs.  I get the
94 octane leaded premium at the Milk Store on Austin Bluffs just East of Academy
Blvd.  Dave Brown (Mr. Firebird) gets his somewhere in Denver.

Mark

    
    
    	Ask at your local Speed Shop(s). That is how I found the 108 and
    114 (too expensive for me to buy on a regular basis though). In my
    case, the HIGH octane is only by gas can or drum. That is to say that
    you bring them a gas can or 55 gal drum and they fill it; no pumps.
    
    	In the case of the 94, I called around a lot but what really worked
    was calling Motorcycle Shops and individuals with motorcycles. Those
    guys seem to be right on top of who pumps the higest octane.
    
    	Good Luck!
    
    	Dave

    Doesn't Sunoco in Westboro Center still sell CAM2 racing fuel?

    
    Yes it does - 110 Octane leaded.  $3.69 per gallon though.
    Put in 4 gallons and top off with premium no-lead.  Should do
    the trick!
    
    Tom

    Thanks for the pointers...!
    As a start, I'll roll on over to W'boro and check that out!
    
    
    Marc

      A couple of years ago, there was a Sunoco on RT. 9 near the
    Southboro/Framinham border that had high octane gas.  I don't remeber
    if it was leaded or not, but it might still be available there.
    
    Rich

    There is one across from Bay State Lincoln/Mercury on Rte. 9, I'm not
    sure if that's the one you mean, but I'll check it out.
    
    I did swing by the one in W'boro, and, FYI, they're (now) charging
    $3.98/gal for that 112 octane leaded racing fuel!

    
    I was wondering if we should start, if not already in another note,
    a topic around gas, i.e. unleaded and leaded.
    
    I have a '67 Pontiac GTO that I put unleaded 92 octane in with an
    additive for lead.  I can't find any leaded gas anywhere and I
    doubt that it is still available.
    
    What do others do?
    
    Rich

    
    Even though Colorado has smog problems (especially Denver), we can
    still find leaded gas.  I can get it at the local Kwik Way.  It's
    octane rating is 87 though so I only use it in my Landcruiser.  For
    the Firebird, I use what-ever Premium unleaded I'm near and use a
    lead additive.  I can't remember the name of the additive, it seems
    to be okay, I just picked it up at the local K-mart.  I have a 20cc
    plastic syringe I BORROWED from work, with about a six-inch 3/8-inch
    tubing pressed on it so I can squirt the stuff down into the tank.
    With the tank fill tube being in the rear-center of the car, I can't
    use the dinky reservoir that the additive bottle has -- I end up
    dribbling additive all over and never getting any in the tank!  The
    syringe works great.
    
    I recently threw out poundage of old musclecar magazines.  I took
    the time to go through them before tossing and, if I remember
    correctly, managed to save a couple that had big articles on leaded
    vs. unleaded and how to properly convert to unleaded.  I'll scope
    it out and let you know what they say.
    
    Hammer.

I thought that I put it in here before, but the rest of you Colorado Springs 
folks, the Milk Store on Austin Bluffs sells 94 octane leaded premium.  It's 
what I run in the Vega.  Last I bought some, it was $1.499.

Mark

The absence of lead in gasoline effects the valve seats, especially when 
the motors are run at high speeds and/or for long periods of time.  The 
seats recede into the head because there isn't a cushion of lead to protect 
them.

Replacing the seats with hardened seats will suffice.  Most pre-'72 motors 
used the cast iron of the cylinder head as a valve seat.  Subsequent 
production utilizes press-in seats instead.

Press-in seats CAN loosen and fall out while this is an impossibility in a 
pre'72 head that doesn't have separate valve seats.

the seats are installed by chilling the seat to shrink it and warming the 
head to expand the hole that's been machined into the seat area.  The 
chilled seat is then pressed in and when the head/seat assembly is at a 
constant temperature, theoretically, the seat won't come out.

Take it from someone who has replaced a couple of pistons, this isn't 
always the case.  Both seats that caused the damage, BTW, were factory 
seats, not after-market pieces installed at a machine shop.

As for lead additives/substitutes, they come in two flavors.  One is as an 
octane booster (which usually doesn't do squat for improving valve seat 
life) while the other is designed to increase valve seat life but doesn't 
do all that much to raise the octane level.

skip

	I have a solution for you: move to Finland; 
	we still have leaded 99-octane in *every* gas station here.

	- Jyri -

    
 I have read the same info. that Skip mentioned in .3 about the valve
    seats.  I am currently having a short block rebuild done to my
    GTO engine due to a worn main bearing.  In the process the heads
    have been sent to a machine shop because two of the valves were
    bad.  (Seating problems.)  I can only conclude that this happended
    due to NOT using a lead additive  all of the time.  (I would only
    put the additive in once in two or three tank fulls.)  I only put
    in the lead additive NOT the octane boost because the unleaded I
    buy is 92 octane which should be plenty.  ( I am willing to listen
    to someone else's opinion on this.)
    
    If you can find any more info. I'd be interested in reading it.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Rich

    re -.1
    
         Just curious how many miles on the GTO engine with bad
    valve seats ??
    
        Dean

    
    In response to .35, the engine has over 170K on it.  I have had
    it for the past 50K miles.  Prior to that I'm sure the engine was
    worked on because you can see where gaskets have been replaced,
    i.e. the splash plate below the intake manifold.
    
    In my case the 4 exhaust valves on the right side were pretty well
    worn.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Rich

    In response to the question a little while back as to where to get
    leaded hi-test, I had asked the same question a few months ago. I'm
    in Southborough, MA, and someone pointed me to the Sunoco in
    Westborough center. They do have 112 octane leaded fuel, ... for
    $3.95/gal!
    
    I put about 3/4 of a tank (balance super unleaded) in my '68 442 to see
    how it'd run, and I was quite pleased! However, I'm gonna either mix a
    smaller amount or try some of the additives that are available.
    
    That's the only place around here that I've found...
    
    Marc 

    
    There's an independant gas station near the Mall of NH in
    Manchester that sells CAM2.  It's next to Pizzeria Uno and
    the Sears Homelife store.  Not sure of the price or octane though.
    
    Tom

>was running with 3 1/2
>month old
>gas.

Prompted by Bruce's racing account I started to wonder.

Is age itself a problem with gasoline?
Is exposure to the atmosphere a problem, enabling the gasoline to out-gas?
Would a modern car, with an unvented fuel system, out-gas, and would the 
fuel stay better longer?

Matt

I have read that gasoline loses octane points with age, and that the fuel
companies make their gas to an actual higher rating than advertised, so that
when it's sold at the pumps it meets the advertised rating.

My reading it doesn't make it true, of course, but I have no other info to go on.

Bruce

I've read that, in many parts of the country, winter gas is now actually a blend
of gasoline and methyl or ethyl alcohol (i.e. - gasohol), or it's some other
version of a so-called "oxygenated" fuel. This is apparently required by the EPA
in many urban/suburban areas to reduce air pollution during those cold months
where atmospheric inversions, etc. add to the smog problem.

I've also read that these blends reduce peak power.

Does anybody have the straight scoop on any of this?

Thanks.

Bruce

Bruce,

Tis true!  Thanks to the all knowing Colorado legislature, we get to use
oxygenated fuels here in Colorado during the winter.  There have even been 
some rumors that they want to expand the program to year around.

They use the two alcolols that you mentioned and also use MTBE.  The upside 
is that it probably reduces emissions on ono-computer controlled vehicles.  
My assumption is that on a vehicle with an electronic feedback fuel management
system, the ecu, based on input from the oxygen sensor, detects the lean
condition created by the oxygenate and reajusts the mixture to compensate.  It
seems to me to have no benefit on these vehicles.

I find in my vehicles that I loose a noticible amount of power and approximately
1.5 mpg during "garbage gas" season, as I call it.

Mark

    
    I will second Mark's statememts about power and mileage loss. I have
    both types of cars, new F.I. and old ('68 Camaro) and the "Garbage Gas"
    takes a noticable toll.
    
    The '89 2.8L MFI Beretta looses about 2 MPG and runs noticeably
    rougher. Power output is not greatly affected.
    
    The '68 refuses to run with a "normal" tune-up. I have to add about 8
    degrees more timing, run super unleaded and hook the valve to the carb
    intake heater up to full vacuume, to get max heat. Only then will the
    car be driveable.
    
    I understand that they add 10% alcohol.
    
    Don
    

    
    Ditto here, the wife's `91 Isuzu 4x4 (3.1 v-6) drops to an average of
    18 MPG in the winter with oxygenated fuels.  Come spring, summer it's
    back to 22-23 MPG.
    
    Same trend with my `79 Malibu.
    
    Tom

Hi,
Next year when I go racing (drag) I was toying with the idea of running on
alcohol.  The carburetor conversion is cheep and easy. The biggest reason though
is horse power. It's supposed to be a significant hp gain without a large cash
drain... Also watching "NHRA Today" they said Methanol driven vehicles are less
affected by weather. That's a nice plus...
	Anyone out there have any experience running on alcohol ??? Tips or
drawbacks ???


					Brian...

    
    I would not call the convertion to alchohol "cheap and easy". Because
    it takes about twice as much volume of alchohol to produce the same
    mixture as gasoline you must upgrade your fuel delivery system to
    handle it. That means twice the fuel pumps, twice the fuel line size,
    twice the fuel capacity in the carb bowls etc... In addition, alchohol
    is corrosive so maintenance is much more involved. You will have to
    drain and flush the fuel system after every race. The alchohol itself
    must be kept in a tightly closed container because it will absorb water
    from the air in a hurry. 
    
    I have a friend on a TAD team and they spend a significant amount of
    time just dealing with the issues listed above.
    
    my $.02
    
    Don Berry
    

Well "cheep and easy" in this case is relative. In my situation it is both.
I have no fuel pumps,regulators and other parts of that sort.... My tank will
hold about a quart, is gravity fed and I probably will burn less than a pint
at a time. 
	I didn't know about the hydroscopic problem. That's good to know...
How corosive is methanol ?. Will it eat the aluminum in the carbuators if left
in the bowls ? What do you flush the system with, or could you just drain the
tank and run out the carbs ? 
	I plan on asking lots of questions this week end up in Denver of people
who run alcohol, but asked the question here also because there is a lot of
expertise in this file...  The more you ask , the more you learn, and in this
case knowlege really is power... (-:


					Thanks,,,
						Brian...

Is the Sunoco station on Rt 9 in Southboro
still selling the Cam2(?) gas?

thanks

larry

    
    Larry, I just read in the May '97 issue of Hot Rod magazine that 13
           lucky service stations in CT,MA,DE,NJ,& PA will carry the new
           "SUNOCO GT",100 octane race fuel at the pump. It's a trial 
            program with possibilities of going nation wide.
           HRM quotes the price at $2.99 per gallon.
           I'd be intrested to see if Southboro is one of them,it would be
           only a few miles from home for me and just what my 12.5:1,
           750 dblpmp,Clevland is thirsty for!
    
                                             _john                   

John, what do you use now for fuel?

    
    
          Right now I'm just using Sunoco Ultra 94, but it still does some
    pinging going up steep grades. I'm gonna have to start to experimenting
    with some 104+ or try to find some CAM2. 
    
                                              _john

John,

I haven't seen 104+ in auto stores near me (Leominster).
Where do you get it? I've tried Outlaw Pro.

Also, since you said you live near Southboro and
are going to look for CAM2, I'm deducing that the 
Sunoco on Rt 9 no longer carries the "racing" gas. True?

And, while doing some browsing last night, I found a
web page that had some Sunoco CAM2 gas info. They make
Sunoco "Standard" (purple, 111 octane), Sunoco "Supreme" (blue, 112 octane),
Sunoco "Maximal" (red, 117 octane), and Sunoco "GT unleaded" (natural, 100
octane).

There is also references for using Toulene, Xylene, and MTBE (methyl-
tertiary-butly-ether). They're common ingredients in octane boosters in a can
and the cost is 2.75-3.50 per gallon. Mixing them 30% with 92 octane gas yields
from 98.6-99.8 octane depending on which ingredient used.

I can see it now. Pull up to the pump, whip out your 5 gallon container of
Toulene, put it in the tank. Then the 16 oz bottle of lead substitute. Then
pump in 15 gallons of Ultra.... I hope somebody nearby starts selling Sunoco GT.

One more thing, I've seen a adverstisment for somebody selling
TEL (tetra-ethyl-lead). Real lead additive for octane boost. This guy
must have a stockpile of it cause it can't be manufactured anymore.


larry

    I remember seeing cam2 in westboro center at the gas station across
    from the radiator shop.

    Yep, still there. My buddy just pumped $37 bucks worth into his GTX.
    ME I cheaped out on the Ultra 94 in my GTX as I had my fun with this
    stuff at the end of last year. Boy does the old 440 keep pulling
    past the century mark with that stuff.....
    
    
    
    						/Dave