Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Shure has a cheap series that seem to work pretty well ($30.00 to
    $40.00 Brand New!!) for general purpose use. These are made in Japan,
    and don't have the high end response that you might like. I have one
    & find it works pretty well (especially since I always seem to run out
    of microphones when I'm recording anything live). You might also want
    stop in to the pawn shops in the area - I've gotten some excellent
    deals when I least expected it).

						    Jens 

    There are notes in the Music note file (I know, it's been down
    for a while, but expect it back up hopefully next week when db
    returns from his trip), and also in the audio notes file as well.
    
    Heres a few ideas ranging from inexpensive to expensive:
    
    	Peavey PVM38's. These mics can be had for $99 including a road
    case, 25' cable, clip, and foam screen. For the money they are great.
    Good alternative to an SM58 or ATM41. I own 2 of them and they sound
    great and are quite rugged. Don't pay more than $99 for them regardless
    what some salesman tells you.
    
    	Shure SM57. Good for micing drums, amps, and instruments.

        Shure SM58. Good vocal mike. Industry standard for the last
    	20 or so years. Cost about $150 each.
    
    	Audio Technica ATM41. A good alternative to a Shure SM58
    	and priced comparably as well.
    
    	Audix ???  A new entry into the mic market. I don't know much
    	about them.
    
        Beyer Dymanics. I have heard rave reviews about Beyer mics,
    	but I understand they are fairly expensive. They have a unique
    	shock-mount.
    
    	Crown. Again quite expensive, but used extensively in recording
    	studios, and they have quite a diverse product line. Crown invented
    	the PZM (pressure zone) mics. see RS PZM
        
    	Sennheiser. Considered by many to be the best. Very expensive.
                                                
    
    note: a unique mic well suited for recording acoustic instruments
    is the RS (rat shack) PZM mics. These can be purchased for $45 and
    modified to make them sound very good. If you would like more info,
    I can point you to some notes about them.
    
    Good luck,
    Mark
    

    I almost forgot Electro-voice. Again they have been making
    industry-standard mics for years.
    
    Yamaha and Sony both claim to have excellant mics, but I cannot
    comment on either. Why not check em out for the hell of it.
    
    Mark Jacques
    

   Unless you're in a big hurry, don't shell out $150 for SM58's.

   They go on sale *regularly* for $99.  SM57's likewise are $75 on sale.
   Used or pawn shop prices are ~$75 and ~50, respectively.

   Wurlies last had them in their ads about a month ago, keep an eye out.

   Happy Friday,
   Dave

    Radio Shack used to make a fairly decent cardiod (?) mike which
    retailed for about $39.95.  I say "used to" because most of the
    stores stopped carrying it about three years ago as a stock item.
    However, if you can find a store with one or two they are a good
    bargain.  (I got the pair for $39.95!)  They were judged to be a
    "best buy" by several audio publications.  If you need the model#
    I go look it up.
    
    Bill Allen @MPO
    

    I've been using a Beyer M-69 for a couple of years with great results
    for both studio and live.   It's a hypercardiod pick-up pattern
    (cuts down feedback problems)  and it's a dynamic type. (most of
    the others mentioned are also dynamic)   I use it mainly for lead
    vocals but works fine on guitar and bass as well.   It's a good
    general all around workhorse.   They used to retail for $189 but
    I believe that figure is more like $215 now.    I paid $100 used
    for mine.   It's also very heavy and durable.
    			Good luck,  Scott.

    
    The M69 is great. Sort of like an SM58 but one step further. It's
    smoother and less peaky.
    
    I use a Beyer M260 ribbon. It's vry flat and soft, with a nice
    proximity effect that adds some much needed bass boost to my thin
    voice. These are about $275 each but can be found used occasionally.
    
    As for the original noters needs, Audio-Technica makes some nice
    low budget mics, I think they're called the Pro series, in the under
    $100 range, new. Paso makes a 58 clone (doesn't everybody?) called
    the Handler which is in the $60 range and has a very similar sound.
    Also, the A-T AT813 is a condenser mic often described as an almost
    studio grade vocal mic, that can be found used around $125. They're
    very smooth and clean with good overload characteristics.
    
    Mikes really should be chosen by audition. You will sound different
    depending which mic you use. For instyance, I sound awful on an
    SM58, yet most people sound great. You should really match your
    voice to the mic.
    
    CdH
    
    
    

    Thanks for all the recommendations.  I've been looking around a
    bit, but still haven't really found anything.  I appreciate the
    help. 
    
    Greg

    
    I'm also interested in getting a new microphone.  I've tried
    a bunch of them at the stores, and am leaning towards purchasing
    an Audio-Technica AT813 condenser mike.  The price is $140 which 
    includes the cable and adaptor.  
    
    First of all, is this a good price?  This is at Wurlitzers in Boston.
    Second how would the AT813 compare with say a Shure SM58?, is there
    any noticeable difference?  Are they any obvious disadvantages
    to owning the AT813.
    
    Is the AT813 more adept at picking up vocals, or better at Guitar
    or drums etc, than some of other mikes on the market in that price
    range?  I'm going to be mainly using the mike for 4-track
    recording, but I might play out eventually.  Would a $300 Sennheiser
    mike be worth it, if I'm only recording on a Fostex 250 4-track.
    
    Is this enough questions?  I know you just got to hear them to 
    really tell the difference, but I'm looking for some general rules
    of thumb.  
    

    
    The AT813 is a condenser mike, the SM58 is a dynamic mike. The price
    you have for the 813 is probably the battery powered version. The
    phantom powered version is more expensive, but more desireable because
    it has more headroom and you don't have to worry about batteries.
    
    The 813 is a great mike, smooth and crisp, but I wouldn't consider it
    in the battery version. Too much hassle, and it overloads too easy.
    
    Check out the E/V N/DYM series. The N/DYM 257 is about the price of the
    58 and, to my ears, is a big improvement. 
    
    CdH
    
    

    I'd also second the EV N/DYM series mikes.  I ended up with an
    N/DYM-257 when I finally bought a mike (I started this note...) and
    have been very pleased with it.  It's got good range and has a hotter
    output than most.  Side by side with a SM58, the EV sounded much
    better to my ears.  Cost: around $100. 
                                          
    Greg

         Would any of you care to advise a microphone novice?
         
         I have read all the recommendations here. What I am really
         looking for is advice on HOW TO CHOOSE a mike. What do you
         look for? How do you test one in the store? 

         I am looking to buy a vocal mike for use on gigs. I will be using
         it from behind my keyboards. I want a low impedance mike with an
         on/off switch. My knowledge of mikes is: 
         
         		* plug one end into the PA
         		* sing into the other end.   
			* mikes can be omni/uni-directional         


         			Thanks,
         			Mark                          

    	PS I want a *good* mike. I don't mind spending up to $200 if
    		need be.

    There is a fairly extensive discussion of this in the DREGS::MUSIC
    notesfile. I don't know the note # however.

						    Jens

    Get a headphone mike.  Most of the keyboardists I know of move around
    too much to stay at a reasonable (i.e. close) distance to their
    mike- _unless_ the mike is on a headphone boom.        
    
    Some people don't like headphone mikes (they think it's geeky to
    look like an air-traffic controller or telephone operator on-stage)
    but others like the hi-tech look.  It sure makes it easier to set
    levels and get a good mix, though!
    
    	-Bill 

    
    E/V N/DYM 757. I think it's the nicest $200 mike going. If you like the
    condenser sound then the AudioTechnica AT813 is real good. But like
    buying ice cream, it has to be right FOR YOU.
    
    CdH
    

	Speaking as a gigging keyboard player, a headset mike is *wonderful*
	if you can stand looking like an air traffic controller. Just stay
	away from the monitors ;^)

	Seriously, though, you may spend over $200 to go that route.

	.-1's recommendation of the AT813 is also good, strictly speaking
	from a vocalist's point of view. I have two of those which are used
	as "nice" rehearsal mikes (we don't always bring our mikes out).

	/pjh

    Thanks for the advice so far but you all seem to have missed the
    question. What I want to know is not WHICH mike to buy but HOW to
    select one. When you go into the store WHAT do you do to test one.
    WHAT do you listen for to decide if you like it or not. 
    
    	Suppose I am A/B-ing some mikes on one of those mike turtles.
    Should I make sure the salesman has set a flat EQ? Does it matter?
    
    BTW re: back a few... Thanks for the DREGS::MUSIC reference. I
    found note 518 on microphones, however it was mostly on microphone
    recommendations (ie: "I like brand X model YYY). Again this is not
    the kind of information I am asking for. (Is it a stupid question???)
    I do recommend this note however it is *very* informative. Seems
    to cover about two dozen mike types!
    
    re: .16
    The idea of a headset mike is one I haven't though of. Cost? I'm
    working off of one keyboard stand, so I haven't had much of a problem
    "finding" the mike. What do you do if you have to sneeze? Or if
    you have to shout to a fellow band member when you have both hands
    full of keys? Couldn't a headset mike be a problem?
    
    					Thanks,
    					Mark
    

	re: .-1

	The whole issue of buying a mike is not unlike buying stereo speakers.
	You have to buy something that's "works well" with you, and something
	you can stand the sound of. In addition, some mikes are more specialized
	than others, i.e. the headset mikes. Maybe they're for you, maybe not.

	The point is, I found one that works for me. I have had many mikes
	in my keyboard/gigging career. This one does what I need, which is
	to provide condenser-quality sound and give me freedom of movement
	on stage (I have two keyboard racks, total of four keyboards on
	stage, currently. I have had as many as six). 

	You gotta try them out. Go into a music store and get them to plug you 
	in. Get a private, quiet demo room. Play piano and sing through one.
	Keep trying until you find one you can live with. It might not be
	a headset (maybe you don't need one), but it'll probably be a cardioid
	pattern (no feedback).

	Oh yeah... regarding coughing, etc. with headsets: The Lord provides;
	there is such a beast as a cough button which is mounted on the side
	of the headset. Push on, push off. Mine also has a little bright red
	indicator to tell me it's live, too. Mounted on the mike cartridge,
	just within eyeshot but not visible from anywhere else. Like I said,
	shop until you find what you want.

	/pjh

    What mike sounds good and works well with you is a lot like what
    brand of underwear you like...  It depends on too many factors to
    be easily quantified.
    
    I like mixing it when people I'm mixing use the headset mikes, because
    they don't mess up their level by distance changes.  A headset mike
    tends to have a pretty crisp response too, lots of high end, which
    is good especially for male vocals which may need a little "kicking"
    with EQ or exciter otherwise.
    
    On the other hand, I like to use a LARGE-apeture (like the U5x type)
    for things with abundant (overabundant?) high end, like flutes or
    really high-pitch vocalists. This is counter to common "wisdom" that
    high frequency -> small apeture, but I find that it makes flutes much
    more "natural" sounding in the mix. 
    
    Now what do I do when, say, a female vocalist with a great top end is
    in the mix?  Well, (fortunately) I've never had to mix one who also
    played AT THE SAME TIME, and WHILE STANDING UP. I don't know if I'd go
    for a large-apeture on a floor boom or have her try a headset and then
    make it OK by EQing it.  I guess a lot would depend on the vocalist's
    self-control and ability to not pop her P's, hisss her esssses, and not
    eat the mike while screaming. 
    
    ------
    
    Try out a few of the mikes- you also may want to try hearing how
    they _record_, not just sound to you subjectively "live".  That
    way you hear what the audience hears, without the additional bone
    and soft-tissue conduction that you hear while singing into monitors
    "live".  
    
    Just have the shop hook up a decent tape deck and record your vocals
    test, then listen to the test playback.  (telling what mike you
    are using in the recorded audio makes this test go a lot smoother).
    
    	-Bill
                                                                       

< Note 1675.17 by KEYBDS::HASTINGS >
                    -< not WHICH mike, HOW to select one. >-

>    select one. When you go into the store WHAT do you do to test one.
>    WHAT do you listen for to decide if you like it or not. 
    
>    	Suppose I am A/B-ing some mikes on one of those mike turtles.
>    Should I make sure the salesman has set a flat EQ? Does it matter?
    
Some thoughts on mic selection...

1. I've found that the main factors in choosing a mic for a singer (not myself)
   were...

sensitivity

How sensitive is the mic to sound pressure? Is it going to match up well with
the PA/mixer you are using? Can you get close to the mic and scream, or is
it going to distort/feedback? Is it going to overdrive your mixer, or pick up
every little sound coming from musicians behind you?

directional characteristics

It is very important to get a directional mic for live performing vocals.
Otherwise feedback is going to be a major problem. I chose a Sennheiser for
this reason ($500).

frequency response

What are the tonal qualities of your voice? Is it harsh, nasal, mellow, deep,
tenor, bass, etc? Are you going to be yelling and screaming R&R or singing
top 40s softrock? You may want a "warm" sounding mic which means good freq
response in the 200-800 hz range.

pop and sssss rejection

You may have to use a windscreen to reduce popping, but this will reduce
frequency response to the highs. When you test the mic, this is an important
consideration. You don't want it to sound muffled.

proximity

How close can you get to the mic without feedback and excessive popping when
you sing a word that starts with the letter "P" or "T"? What is the tone quality
like if you back off from the mic when singing loudly?

Unless you go to a large store, probably in Boston, the chances of them having
a private demo room are slim. The best test area is with your own band in a
typical setup configuration. Perhaps you can persuade the store to let you
try out several mics on approval before making the purchase. Usually, if you
let them put your credit card thru their machine, give them full details
on how to reach you, and/or know the salesperson well, this is not a problem.
This is one of the obvious advantages of dealing with stores and getting to
know their sales people. Having someone with a "good critical ear" listen to
you from the audience side is important. You probably will not be able to hear
yourself any better than whatever monitors you are using sound like, which is
usually not very well. I don't think the person singing into the mic can make
a valid decision on how the mic is going to sound to the audience. None of the
singers in any of the bands I played in were ever able to IMO.

hope this helps, good luck!

dave

     The one thing that has kept me from considering a headset mike
    for stage use is that I typically use distance between me and the
    mike to help balance the vocals. If I sing lead I get close, if
    I sing backup I stand back from the mike some...this can become
    very important if you have a strong (loud) singing voice.
    
    for what it's worth
    
    dbii

	Does anyone have a frequency response chart for either the Shure SM58,
the Shure SM57 or the AT818?  I need to be able to use one plugged into an audio
analyzer and need to compensate for the mike's response.

	OR...

	Can anyone recommend a good, relatively cheap (under $100) mike with
extremely flat response for use with said frequency analyzer?

	Dan

I have a question about wireless vocal mikes (posted in both MUSIC and 
COMMUSIC). I'm looking at two used systems for the same price - does anyone 
have any comments on either system, good or bad??? The two I'm looking at
are Nady 201-HT and Sampson Concert Series RH-1.

thanx,
alan