Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    RE .0 - What I currently have for base sounds are my D50 which has
    good slap bass sounds, not sure what else, and an ESQ-M, which has
    some decent acoustic bass sounds. I own the VOICE CRYSTAL 1 cartridge
    which has some pretty good upright bass sounds. The ESQ-M sounds are
    good, but I'm looking for better in the accoustic bass department.
    
    Gee, now that you've started this topic, let me throw one out ...
    I have various needs for bass sounds and have been wondering the same
    thing, where's the best place to get these sounds. What I'd really
    like to find are some great accoustic bass sounds - like a good upright
    jazz bass with that - not sure how to describe this - sort of a buzzing
    sound, as you would get sliding a note on an upright - perhaps from
    lifting your fingers slightly on the neck.
    
    For my needs - the module could be a sampler, which I might be in the
    market for, - or a sample player module or even another synthesizer.
    
    Bill

    There's the MIDIBass, of course, with a whole note devoted to it
    (anybody got the reference handy?).
    
    You can get some pretty good bass sounds out of those obsolete analog
    synths - my MKS-80 (Super Jupiter) and JX-10 come to mind immediately.
    A really good acoustic string bass is a bit of challenge for any
    technology, though, especially the sound that Bill describes.
    
    len.
    

    RE .1
    	I have layered some of the bass sounds on my FB01 but it's just
    ok. I want something that has a lot of presence. A sound that 
    someone might look up and say "Where's the bass player?". Karl,
    my needs sound identical to yours.
                                              
     Side Note:
    	I play bass on the keyboard with the left hand.  I wonder what
    other left-hand-bass keyboard players use? 
      
     

    I once helped produce a cover of the Beatles' "In My Life" for a
    friend.  He played guitar and sang, I supplied drums, bass and 
    the keyboard solo.  I made a dub of the instrumental parts that
    I had sequenced for him to practice with.  He called me a few days
    later and said, "I didn't know you played bass".  I said "I don't".
    "Well, then, who'd you get to play bass on that tape?"  "No one,
    it was my sequencer and a bass synth".  "C'mon, a guy I know who
    plays bass said you nailed McCartney's part".   "Well, yeah, I studied
    it real hard to program it, but a machine played it, and the sound
    came from my MIDIBass".  "You'll have to prove that to me before
    I'll believe it.  And I didn't know you played keyboards too".  "I don't".
    "Well, who played the harpsichord..." 
    
    So, the night he came over to record the guitar and vocal parts,
    I pushed start on the MC-500.  "Well I'll be ...!"
    
    len.
    

    I used my ESQ-1 in split mode for 3 years with the patch VELBAS in the
    lower part of the keyboard. It's a very 'generic' sounding bass with
    some presence, but also that full/mellow quality. I was never told
    that it sounded like a real Fender Precision or anything but I have
    had people come up to me and say..."hey that's gotto be the VELBAS 
    patch you're using for bass right?"  8^)  
    
    ..so I promptly changed.....the patch name!!!
    
           Frank

    I had a MIDIbass (the newer, "ProMIDIBass" model) for about 6 months,
    and really like it.  I play bass with either my left hand or left
    foot, whichever is easiest for the particular tune.  I sold the
    MIDIbass when I decided to "sell all my gear, and buy all new gear,
    in the interest of simplification (my setup got unweildy after awhile).
    
    There are MANY alternate sounds available for this unit, including
    one called "GrowlBass" which is what .0,.1 is decribing I think.
    They *are* good (the uprights), although the best "plain ol' upright"
    I've heard was the Kurzweil 1000-series bass sample ...
    
    	-Jim

    RE .6
          Jim, since you sold the ProMIDIBass what did you buy to replace
    it?  How much does a ProMIDIbass cost?  Would you mind giving me
    a brief discription of the ProMIDIbass, like number of sounds etc..
    Thanks
    Rick L.
     

	There's a fairly in-depth discussion of this in note 1681.

	Dan

    RE .6 -
    
    Jim,
    Was the Kurzweil 1000 series per chance the 1000-PX that I'm really
    starting to wish I had jumped on?
    
    I'm going to take a serious look at these Kurzweil units (looks
    like it will be the new version going for $1K +).
    
    The Proteus, Kurzweils, and Ensonique VFX are units I'm going to
    be checking out real soon (checked out the VFX but don't remember
    any great bass sounds).

    Thanks!
    Bill

    I like to lend another vote to the "pro" midibass. I also play lefthand
    bass in a general business type band and have found it meets my
    needs quite well.  The ability to switch between patches based od
    velocity is also quite usefull in a live situation, it lends a bit
    of realism to the overall effect. As was mentioned earlier, there
    is quite a bit of info around on this so read on.....
    
    One thing of interest, I was not at all familiar with 360 Systems
    when I bought the module and was concerned about reliability, I'm
    happy to report that I have had mine for 1.5 yrs without a single
    bit of problem. It did refuse to initialize once but the problem
    was traced to low A.C. line voltage, a long extension to another
    outlet fixed the problem. I'd be happy to send you a copy of the
    owners manual to check out, give me a call if you'd like it.
    
    Gary Ryan 8-332-3999
    

    Funny Frank should mention VELBAS - it's my favorite ESQ bass patch,
    too.  An ESQ should function quite well as a bass machine - as someone
    said earlier, the Voice Crystal I cartridge has some fairly decent
    acoustic bass patches; the ESQ factory banks (on the net in MIDIlib)
    have several variations of electric and synth bass patches, most of
    which are quite good. 

    The Kurzweil 1000 sampled acoustic bass is *the* best acoustic bass
    patch/sample I've ever heard.  It does lack gain, however - meaning it
    doesn't respond to velocity very well - and doesn't cut well thru
    a mix.

    For FM bass, I prefer a TX81z to the FB01 - the 8bit FB is just too
    thin and noisy on the low end ... the TX has many very good bass
    patches, and layering them makes for fat bass.  Of course, 6op FM (DX7
    series 1&2) have many very good bass patches available. 

    The Oberheim Matrix-1000 (or 6) also offer good fat analog bass. 

    Given the prices of the MIDIbass units (at least what they used to go
    for), I decided against them long ago.  A synthesized bass will usually
    suffice for live work, and the additional capabilities often outweigh
    the "imperfect" sound reproduction - especially if the unit is
    multi-timbral (like the ESQ, TX81z, or Kurzweil). 

-b

    RE .11
    	Brad, 
             I looked through the MIDIlib, only problem is I don't own
    an Atari ST. Looking through the summary of sounds it seems there
    would be enough ESQ-1 patches to last me a life time or as long as
    I own the ESQ-1.  
    
    	Does anyone have these on tape or in hardcopy so I could manually
    enter them.  Or is there any other way I could dump these down to try 
    some of the patches?
    
    	I did pull the hardcopy ESQ-1 patches out of Commusic but there
    weren't any bass patches.
     Rick L.
    
                                                                          
    

    RE .11 -
    
    Brad,
    Could you point me to MIDIlib? Like, how do I access it! I'll need
    specifics since I don't know what/where you are referring to. I
    have obviously never accessed this before!
    
    Or, just point me to a note that describes how to get there - I
    did a search on titles but didn't get a hit on this one.
    
    Thanks!
    Bill

RE: .12 (Rick L.)

    Given that there are over 1500 ESQ patches in MIDIlib, I don't think
    you'd want hardcopy.  You don't have time, and I don't have disk space. 

    Your best bet is to find a friend (or fellow noter) who'd be willing to
    let you borrow/use his (or hers, as the case may be). 

RE: .13 (Bill Karl)

    Do a SHOW KEY/FULL MIDILIB.  I think it's # 17, but I don't have my
    index handy, and forgot to do it myself before I ANSwered. 

-b

    Re .7
    
    I paid, if I remember right, about $350 for my MIDI bass.  I bought
    it from a store that was no longer going to carry 360 Systems products,
    so they were anxious to "dump it" cheap (I believe it lists at >$500).
    It came standard with 8 sounds, there are probably over 50 additional
    sound chips you can buy (1 or 2 sounds per chip) at ~$35-$55 depending
    on the sound.
    
    What did I replace it with?  My old setup was something like this:
    	K1000 keyboard
    	D50 keyboard
    	HR-16 drum machine
    	ProMIDI Bass SGU with "MIDI Director" to do patch-changes
    	TX-802 SGU (2 spaces)
    	MV-802 mixer (2 spaces)
    	MX-8 MIDI "patcher"
    	Elka DMP-18 foot pedals
    	Alesis microverb
    	Carver PM-100 (1-space) power amp, + speakers, etc.
        Lots (and I mean LOTS!) of MIDI, audio and power cables!
    
    My new setup will be (when I complete it ...)
    	Korg T2 keyboard with onboard drums, effects, etc.
    	Technics KN800 keyboard w/on-board drum machine, effects, etc.
	Furman 1-rack-space mixer
    	Elka DMP-18 pedals
    	Carver 1-space power amp, + speakers, etc.
    	A couple of MIDI cables, a *few* audio and power cables!

    I'll be set up to use either keyboard as my bass sound generator.
    I like things *simple*, well, I learned the hard way that I like
    things simple!

    RE .14 -
    
    Thanks Brad - I can't believe I never came across that library before!
    I have to install a modem on my PC, and hopefully can access those
    patch dumps ASAP. I could really use some more patches for my D50.

    RE .16 -
    
    Jim,
    
    A little off the bass subject here ...
    It's refreshing to see someone who's in less mode instead of more mode.
    I'm still in more mode, and I can see that the cable situation could
    get out of hand if I'm not careful. I'm trying to set things up
    with 8 cable color coded snakes. Having just added an R8 drum machine
    and using it as the sync master to my PC, I've come up with some MIDI
    cable configuration problems that I have to deal with. I don't want
    to end up with an unmanageable jumble, so I'm re-designing the studio.

    Bill

    RE .1
    
    Bill,
       
    It took being in "more mode" too long for me to come to the realization
    that "less is more", that "simpler/smaller can still be a good thing".
    
    My setup is now smaller, weights less - - - now, if I can only apply
    this same stragety to my body, trade it in for a lightweight model
    :-}
    
    	-	Jim	-

	Actually, the term "less is more" can be a bit of a misnomer in this 
case.  In music, it is generally used to give the impression that there are 
times when the overall musical product is more valuable if steps are taken to 
"shave it down" to some bare essentials.  But in the case of the current 
technology available, while you may decrease the SIZE of your rig, you get more 
functionality.  What once took many synths to do can now be done with a single 
unit (like the Proteus, for example).  I suppose that gives "less is more" a 
different twist of meaning.  While the SIZE of the system may go down, there is 
still ample opportunity to make the music "cluttered".

	Dan

    
    Electric bass: pick any synth. 
    
    Slap/pop : Velocity switch on a sampler.
    
    Upright Acoustic: WITHOUT COMPETITION: DX7II string bass sound.
    Dont know if it's a stock 6-op thing that works on orig DX or not.
    Probably....that means choice of TX7 or TX802 for rack-ish deal.
    
    It's just tooooooooooooooooo good. Trust me. Hear it.
    
    rr
    

    re .0
    
    This may sound a bit heretical but if you are looking for good bass
    sounds on a budget you should at least listen to the ROLAND D-110.
    I agree with Brad and others that the KURZWEIL 1000PX has a sweet
    ACOUSTIC BASS, but as he mentioned it is on the soft side.  There
    are no good electric basses in the 1000PX (IMHO); you have to make
    them yourself.
    
    The more I use the D110 and 1000PX side-by-side the more I have
    come to respect the D110.  Its ACOUS BASS is not as clean as the
    1000PX's but it does have the kind of characteristics that make
    it stand out in the mix as the real thing.  I really like it.
    
    There are also a number of nice SYNTH and ELECTRIC basses on the
    D110 that you would need to hear for yourself to evaluate.  At the
    going price, it might be a very inexpensive way to broaden your
    palatte (and to get some new sounds, too :-) ).
    
    Clusters,
    Bill (Who is thinking he might sell his hard-fought-for 1000PX)
       Allen ....  
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Nahhh!!!  8^)

    Before you purchase anything, try to use it in context first. I've
    found that some patches that sound great alone get lost in the mix,
    while so-so patches sound great.
    
    Edd

    I found many of the patches of the TX81Z to be excellent for this. 
    They respond well to aftertouch/BC and velocity.  You can split a sound
    into two voices and detune each slightly to get variety.  The sounds
    are not samples, sounding to my ears more natural over a range of
    notes.  And, there are lots of other features about the TZ that can
    add flexibility and realism to the sound.  The TZ is a classic and
    under-rated box.  It's really a shame that it has been discontinued
    without a suitable, inexpensive replacement.  In some ways, I felt that
    Sal what's-his-name did the TZ a disfavor.   He got great sounds with
    the WX, but only by defeating many of the features of the TZ and using 
    other gear to add sound features.
    
    Steve

    It is sad that FM synthesis is so poorly understood.  (The magazines
    have been notably to blame here, for not having enough theory
    articles.)  Having owned both an FB01 and now a TX81Z, I would say that
    the TZ's 128 factory sounds are lots better than the FB's 240 factory
    sounds, and the TZ's architecture is much more versatile.  But both are
    capable of much more than the factory patches if people would just
    dig into all those knobs.
    
    At 100 parameters per patch, coming up with a usable TZ patch by just
    noodling around with the "knobs" is not likely to get you anywhere
    fast.  You really have to understand the physics of the instrument you
    are attempting to simulate, and think in the frequency domain.  This is
    an area not generally in a musician's background (unless they have
    experience on an old Hammond organ with the "tone-bars").

    My favorite bass sound is the EQBASS patch on the Voice Crystal
    III cartridge for the Ensoniq ESQ-1.
    
    Perhaps I'm just different from everybody else, but I don't like
    this metallic sound slap-bass type sounds.  I prefer stuff more
    like thumb picked "round" sounds (sorta like Chris Squire).
    
    They blend in better with electric piano and guitar (sorta make
    the bass sound like part of the chord voicing rather than a separate
    part).
    
    The EQBASS patch has a fairly realistic vibrato and "bends" pretty
    well, unlike a lot of the slap sounds.
    
    Anyway EQBASS sorta sounds like a VERY clean "direct" bass with lots
    of tonal definition.  The only complaint I have about it is that it
    doesn't cut through very well which can be a big problem.  Because
    of this, sometimes I use EQBASS when the bass is very prominent
    (soft section, moving bass, etc) but resort to the various slappy
    basses when the mix is kinda of busy.
    
    	db