Conference napalm::commusic_v1


Newsgroups: rec.music.synth
Path: decwrl!ucbvax!pasteur!ames!husc6!bloom-beacon!mit-eddie!XEROX.COM!webster.henr
Subject: new Roland sample player (T110)
Posted: 10 Sep 88 20:46:48 GMT
Organization: 
 
Roland just announced the T110, which seems basically like a playback only
version of the S-550.  Supposedly has the same voice archrtecture as the S-550.
It comes with 2 Meg of ROM, and slots for up to 4 1/2 Meg card.  Now the S-550
has 1.5 Meg of ROM (29 seconds -- 2 disks worth), and while I'm not exactly sure
how this all divides up, I would guess the T110 fully loaded would be a minute
and a half to two minutes of sampleing -- something around 5 or 7 disks worth of
sound at the touch of a button.  Plus ... you don't just get 8 voices or 16
voices, or even a Kurzweil 24, but *31* voices to allocate!  They only give you
6 outs (boo!) but still...
 
At around $1000 list, this seems like it could be an extremely hot item...
 
marc webster 

< Note 1671.1 by HPSRAD::NORCROSS >
>how this all divides up, I would guess the T110 fully loaded would be a minute
>and a half to two minutes of sampleing -- something around 5 or 7 disks worth of
>sound at the touch of a button.  
    
    sure wouldn't want to have to load this beast from floppies 
    live in mid-set...
    
    karl

    but it sounds like it'd work just great in the studio...
    
    len.
    

    
    
    Kinda sounds like the Oberhiem DXP, which will play disks from
    lots of different manufacturers...('cept the Roland S series samplers)
    and for about the same price (1k).  Rumor is its a matter of time
    before the software is available for it to run the Roland disks
    too!
    
    Ralph
    
    

    Roland were showing the T-110 at the recent British Music Fair. I
    don't think they demoed it, but I have the official Roland glossy for
    it at home (I'll bring it to work when I remember).

    A point which may have passed you by ...

    The T-110 does *not* have a disk drive. It loads it's samples from
    card memory (the cards look like the ones the D-50 uses). I assume that
    the next product from Roland will be a RAM-card writer for the S series
    samplers (S550 + card writer + T-110 = 2 * S550 !!).

    In any event, this will be a biggy (U.K. retail estimated at 799 pounds)

  
    Cheers,

        Derek.    
    

    Gee,
    
    I had gotten the impression that this was sorta intended FOR live
    performance rather than for the studio.
    
    The extra memory is so that you are LESS likely to have to load
    it up during the middle of the set.
    
    It's remotely conceivable that after I win megabucks, I may buy
    one of these to use for gigs, and keep the S-550 which is heavy,
    big (sticks out the back of my oversized rack) and of questionable
    road-worthiness (I've had loads of problems).
    
    	db

  Read the latest ROLAND USER"S GROUP rag.  It has a blurb about the U-110,
  which is what the T-110 also appears to be called.  I had typed it in as
  a reply but lost my conection and the .TMP file and I am not going to retype
  it.

CHad

    
    re: 'losing' your reply
    
      You didn't really lose your reply, you should know.
    
      When you get the dreaded "network partner exited" after ^Z-ing
    out of a reply, type the following:
    
    notes> Eve Buff Notes$Edit
    
    <do> write reply.not
    
    ^Z
     then get yourself back into the conference, when you find your
    topic again, then reply, then <do> include reply.not, ^Z, new title,
    and you saved yourself some typing.
    
    Ain't TPU wonderful.
    
    /pjh
    

>    re: 'losing' your reply
>    
>      You didn't really lose your reply, you should know.
>    
>      When you get the dreaded "network partner exited" after ^Z-ing
>    out of a reply, type the following:
>    
>    notes> Eve Buff Notes$Edit
>    
>    <do> write reply.not
>    
>    ^Z
>     then get yourself back into the conference, when you find your
>    topic again, then reply, then <do> include reply.not, ^Z, new title,
>    and you saved yourself some typing.
>    

This work when using LSE as editor too?  Anyway, I had typed out the .TMP
before it got overwritten and thanks to the scrollbars on DECterms under
DECwindows I was able to salvage it anyway.  Thanks for the tip.

Here it is:
________________________________________________________________________________


  From the latest Roland User's Group rag.  Taken without permission etc etc.
  Apparently it is now called the U-110.

     U-110  PCM Sound Module

 "Lots of today's MIDI musicians are interested in using sampled sounds, but
many don't want the hassle of creating their own samples, while others just
don't have the budget for a professional quality sampling unit.  Roland offers
the best solution to this predicament with the new U-110 PCM Sound Module, an
affordable sample plaback unit that delivers the high quality, realistic
sounds previously available only on Roland's professional-standard sampling
units.

 "Incorporating Roland's newly developed proprietary LSI chip, the amazing
U-110 is based on advanced DC-PCM technology (Differential Scale Pulse Code
Modulation), a highly efficient method of increasing storage capacity.  As a
result, using a sampling rate of 32 kHz, the U-110 can provide you with high-
quality sounds comparable to those produced by more expensive and sophisticated
samplers.

 "The U-110 is shipped with fourteen different sounds stored in the unit's
internal sixteen megabit (comment by me: notice *bit* ) ROM, including
acoustic piano, electric piano, strings, and rhythm sounds.  In addition, on
the front panel of the U-110 there are four ROM card slots which enable you to
use four optional ROM cards simultaneously for a total of six separate sounds.
With the combined use of the four ROM cards and the internal ROM memory, the
total memory capacity is increased to thirt-two mega*bits* (again my
emphasis) or the equivalent of eight S-50 samplers! A wide variety of sampled
sounds will be available on optional ROM cards from Roland and third party
software developers.

 "Since the U-110 is a multi-timbral instrument, up to six separate musical
parts can be performed at the same time with a total polyphony of thirty-one
voices.  This makes it perfect for use with MIDI sequencers such as the
MC-500 Mark II and MC-300, as well as any type of MIDI controller.
Percussionists will find the U-110 an especially useful addition to their rack
for layering high quality samples of drum and percussion sounds using an
advanced controller like the PAD-80.  Occupying only one rackmount space,
other features include built-in chorus and vibrato effects.

 "Now any MIDI musician can increase the power of his or her MIDI system a
thousand fold with the addition of PCM samples generated by the highly
versatile and affordable U-100."



-----------------------------------------------------

Also included as NEW were the A-880 MIDI Patch Bay, the PAD-80 Octapad II,
the M-16E and M-24E Prefessional Audi Mixers (look like M-160 and M-240s with
EQ), the E-10 and E-20 Home Synthesizers,, the PC-100 Midi Data Keyboard, the
PAD-5 MIDI Rhythm Controller, the SYS-553 and SYS-333 Director "S" Sequencer
Software for the S-550/S-330 samplers, the D-110 (new ???), and the A-50
Mother Keyboard Controller.  Also a big blurb about the R-8 Human Rhythm
Composer with 16 bit digital samples. (once called R-9 in the article)



Chad

    
    I don't understand some  of the things in the ad in the last reply.
    First they say the unit comes with 14 sounds, then they say there
    are 4 optional ROM card slots for a total of 6 seperate sounds?????
    
    I'm confused.
    
    MD

>< Note 1671.11 by MAY26::DIORIO >
>              -< ...clarification alert...clarification alert... >-
>
>    
>    I don't understand some  of the things in the ad in the last reply.
>    First they say the unit comes with 14 sounds, then they say there
>    are 4 optional ROM card slots for a total of 6 seperate sounds?????
>    
>    I'm confused.
>    
>    MD

It was typed just as it appeared.  probably means playable at once 
versus just sitting there as a "preset"

??
CHad

    
    Chad,
    
    I know you just typed what you saw. It's not you, it's THEM! I was
    just wondering if you or anybody else could offer a translation
    of what they *meant* to say. My guess is a total of 6 *simultaneous*
    seperate sounds. Also, it sounds (to me) like they are saying that
    each ROM card only contains 1 new sound (multisampled). 
    
    Mike D_still battling the killer ???????????
    

>                        -< I wasn't criticizing you... >-
>
 I know.  After I typed the reply and had it posted I saw it wasn't what
I meant to say.  I meant that it could have been a typo and that I had
double checked it and that it did indeeed say what I typed (if you can follow).
>    
>    Chad,
>    
>    I know you just typed what you saw. It's not you, it's THEM! I was
>    just wondering if you or anybody else could offer a translation
>    of what they *meant* to say. My guess is a total of 6 *simultaneous*
>    seperate sounds. Also, it sounds (to me) like they are saying that
>    each ROM card only contains 1 new sound (multisampled). 
>    
>    Mike D_still battling the killer ???????????
    
My question is why it says U-110 (including the picture in RUG rag :-) )but
all the other trade zines say T-110 including the picture in Keyboard mag.
There can't be two different machines that are about the same.

CHad

    re-1 I hadn't even thought about that aspect of it. I think the
    problems that Roland has with its manuals is creeping into its
    marketing literature also. They don't seem to know what they want
    to say about what product or how to say it! (That sentence should
    be about as clear as Roland's documentation.)
    
    Mike D

    Ahem ... according to most sales rep's, this is actually a *feature*.
    Ya see, this way, you always get more in your equipment than the
    documentation says.  Typical of Roland and their gear...
    
    Steve

             <<< NOVA::$111$DUA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]COMMUSIC.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -<   **  Computer Music  **   >-
================================================================================
Note 1671.17                          T110                              17 of 17
XERO::ARNOLD "time is rope."                         30 lines  29-NOV-1988 12:26
                       -< Seemed good for the money... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I played with one of these for a bit last night at E.U. Wurlitzer
    in Worcester.  (For the life of me, I can't remember if the thing
    was labelled as a T-110 or a D-110!)  It sounded pretty good though
    I'd like to compare it against a Kurzweil 1000PX and the 2 disk
    S-550 piano before I buy.
    
    The sounds I recall are acoustic piano, electric piano, trumpet, sax,
    drums, choir, strings, acoustic bass, and electric bass.  The 64
    patches are essentially variants and "setups" of the built-in 14
    sounds.  For instance, there seemed to be regular piano, bright piano,
    detuned piano, and wide (i.e., stereo field) piano variants of the
    basic acoustic and electric piano sounds.  These were good. The sax was
    quite good, too.  As I recall, the acoustic bass was not as good as the
    1000PX. 
    
    Eddie Fritz told me that the price was $900 but my memory may have
    lost a trailing $50 or so.
    
    At any rate, I'm going to decide on something like this, a 1000PX,
    or a S-550/S-330 sampler in the next few months.  The brief demo
    was good enough for me to put this on the list (due to significant
    savings without losing "much" in terms of sound quality).
    
    I'd love to see a head-to-head competition between the acoustic piano
    (and other sounds) of the Kurzweil, T/U-110, and S-550/S-330 before I
    buy so I hear each in the same context.  Maybe this could be a good
    excuse for an ActonGig, Dave Orin?  (hint, hint). 
    
    - John -
    (finally caught up on the over 2000 unseen notes in this conference!)

re: -.1

But hw much are new sample cards going to cost???  $80 retail = $55 MO?
Add the price of a few cards into your equation.

Remember a 3.5" floppy costs between $.85 and $2.00 and you can copy
sound libraries for Roland and Yamaha samplers free (ususally).  And you
can sample your own.

Chad

    Re: cost of add-on cards...
    
    In constant fear of vaporware (i.e., there are NO cards yet, regardless
    of price), I was judging my 15 minutes with the U-110 (or is it
    T-110?) strictly on a "this is what you get for your money" basis.
    The cost/availability of these cards is one of the main reasons
    why the S-550/S-330 and Kurzweil 1000PX are still on my list of
    possible even though they cost >= 2x this unit.
    
    Thanks for the reminder to factor the cost in, however.
    
    - John -

John,
    
>    I'd love to see a head-to-head competition between the acoustic piano
>    (and other sounds) of the Kurzweil, T/U-110, and S-550/S-330 before I
>    buy so I hear each in the same context.  Maybe this could be a good
>    excuse for an ActonGig, Dave Orin?  (hint, hint). 

I sent out mail asking if anyone was interested in an Actongig. I received
a total of 2 replies so assumed that meant no. I thought maybe we could
try again after the holidays. I have a 1000PX and S550. I love them both,
but they are very different kinds of instruments. The PX has lots of great
presets, but no sampling. The S550 is great, but makes inefficient use of
sample memory and has lousy manual. Once I finally spent enough time with
the S550 just trying to figure it out, I was able to enjoy the many
features. The disk drive, video out, large free library, lots of sample
memory, 9 separate outputs, etc. make it a great instrument. I've since
added an Ensoniq EPS. This is my favorite instrument of all, and I'm
using Universal Sound Designer to transfer samples from the S550 and sampling
my other SGUs like crazy. USD makes it real easy to Cross-Fade loop even
the most complex samples. You can also trim down those inefficient S550/S50
samples to a small fraction of the sampling time used. By appending the
samples onto each other after the "dead time" at the end is removed, and
then creating subtones on the S550, you can regain about 50% of the wasted
sampling time. The S550 can truly hold an entire orchestra full of samples
at 30kz if you use this sample trimming technique.

dave

> < Note 1671.17 by XERO::ARNOLD "time is rope." >
>                     -< Seemed pretty good for the money... >-
>
>     At any rate, I'm going to decide on something like this, a 1000PX,
>     or a S-550/S-330 sampler in the next few months.  The brief demo
>     was good enough for me to put this on the list (due to significant
>     savings without losing "much" in terms of sound quality).

Me  too.  I've been trying to decide whether to purchase an S550  or  an
     Ensoniq EPS in the next month or two.  Then I listened to a U110  a
     few days ago.

The U110 sounds pretty good.   From  my  point  of  view,  it had a good
     piano, good strings, and a good choir.   And wouldn't you know that
     these are the main things that I want  a  sampler  for!    And sure
     enough,  I  was  able  to  modify  these patches with  just  a  few
     keystrokes (attack/release rates - the only thing I really care  to
     edit).

As for the rest  of  the  sounds  -  well, frankly, I don't need most of
     them.  The sax was a  little  bit  better  than the D110 sax that I
     have now.  Also, the crash cymbal  was  longer  than the D110 crash
     cymbal.  In general, I'd hate to see all  that  memory go to waste.
     Also, I'd like to see what kind of cards become available.

The user interface was  light  years ahead of the D110.  It was straight
     forward and menu driven.

My latest  thoughts are along these lines:  Get a U110  now  (when  they
     become  available) and get an S330 or equivalent later.  This  will
     give  me  the  main  sounds  that  I want now together with 31 note
     polyphony and ease of use.  The  S330  will give me the flexibility
     that I will ultimately want later together with  an  additional  16
     voices.  I think the two prices will add up to _about_ what an S550
     costs.

I will continue to listen and learn about the U110 before deciding.

/Mitch

    This is a very short note based on a pretty superficial listen to
    the new ROLAND U110.  I went back to the dealer from whom I recently
    purchased a D110, just to see what the U110 sounded like (and if
    I had "made a big mistake"...oh no 8-]).
    
    To my ears, the U110 sounds pretty good.  The sounds are clear and
    all are credible except when they detune them.  For each sound there
    is at least one detuned version, and so of the 60-odd sounds listed,
    only about half of these are unique.  The pianos sounded OK, definitely
    better than the D110, but not quite what I was expecting.  I still
    felt that a trained ear could easily pick these out as "fake". 
    The electric sounded nice, though, as did the organs.  This is the
    same situation as in the D110, although the U110 sounds even cleaner.
    
    Strings and brasses also sounded good, but IMO not exceptional.
     The Chorus was very nice, as long as you stayed within realistic
    human voice ranges.  Where I think the U110 really sounded great
    was in some of the layered sounds, like Brass + Strings.  These
    were very rich sounding.  The drums also came across as much more
    convincing than the D110 in many cases, particularly the cymbals.
    
    But you know what, after playing with this beast for about an hour,
    I was not moved to start my usual process of coniving to get one.
    Although it does offer many sonic improvements over D110, it has
    nowhere the variety that D110 has.  At this point in my development,
    variety is very important.  Another drawback is that it does not
    use the same cartridges that the S550 uses, so that I couldn't just
    go in to the dealer and try out sounds (or borrow them to dump down
    to the computer).
    
    If you are looking for an SGU like the D110 or Kurzweil 1000PX,
    this might be a good one to hear before you jump.
    
    Santa Clusters,
    Bill Allen @MPO

I gave this device a second listen a few evenings ago.   It still sounds
     pretty  good  to  my ears.  This time I discovered the 4  ROM  demo
     songs.  These  were  impressive.

There is some noticable noise in  the audio path (I was using headphones
     though the headphone jack).  I  compared  the  piano  sounds to the
     Roland P330 piano module which was sitting right  under  it.  Yech.
     The P330 sounded like an anologue synth in comparison.    The  U110
     definitely sounded better to my ears.

I looked over the manual.  It is similar  to  the  D110  manual in form.
     What I learned from it was that the architecture of  the  thing  is
     indeed quite complicated.    Tones,  Parts,  Voice  Groups,  Output
     Modes, etc....  Very  heirarchical,  like  the  D110, but different
     enough for me not to be able to figure it out in that sitting.

As expected, the 31 note polyphony claim only holds true if you're using
     the simplest of  tones.    From what I gathered, tones could either
     use up 1 note of  polyphony  or 2 notes of polyphony - so the worst
     case would leave a total of  16  notes  of  polyphony.   The 1 note
     tones were either single samples or 2  velocity  switched  samples.
     The 2 note tones were either doubled samples  or  2  velocity mixed
     samples.

I hope it goes down to $700 real soon.

/Mitch

Oh yes.   There  are 64 programmable patches.  These are what you get to
     listen to in the store.  Each  of  these are built from one or more
     of the 99 non-programmable tones.   4  memory cards will double the
     available tones (and I suppose add more patch memory too).

Re: .22, Bill - I also have a D110.    I would not consider the U110 as
     a replacement  for  the  D110  for the same reason that you stated:
     the D110 offers more all-around variety.  However, to me it will be
     a good addition to  the  D110  as  it  has good piano, strings, and
     choir (things that the D110 only does mediocre).

/Mitch

    
    re: .-1
    
       Umm, which EPS piano *did* you try? I now have a couple of disks
    worth of pianos, i.e.:
    
       Grand Piano (4 patches - 1 stereo non-flanged non-reverbed,
    				1 stereo flanged non-reverbed,
    				1 stereo non-flanged reverbed,
    				1 mono)
       Rock Piano  (4 patches, similar to above)
       Electric Piano (rhodes, y-word, and two mixtures)
       Digital Piano (a sinkinabeer-ish sounding thing, but nice)
       Kawai EP-308 electric grand (from my living room)
    
    ...any EPS users are welcome to send a disk and obtain a copy, there
    are no "for sale" samples involved here.
    
    /pjh

>>> Umm, which EPS piano *did* you try?
    
    I know it was an Ensoniq factory disk.  I think it was called Grand
    Piano but I'm not sure.  Note also that it was taking me a while to get
    used to the EPS keyboard's feel so that may have affected the sound
    (e.g., abilty to play at different but predictable velocities may have
    made the playing sound worse than it really sounded; if you know what I
    mean). 
    
    Also, this ISN'T a dig at the EPS.  I'm sure there are better piano
    samples and I'm sure that 5 minutes while in a hurry doesn't produce
    enough information to pass judgment.  All I was implying was that
    in this particular scene, the U110 piano sounded better to me than
    the particular EPS sample I was playing.
    
    Thanks for the offer of disk swapping.  If I get an EPS, I'm sure
    I'll ask you for more details.

    - John -

    
    
    I wasn't implying you were digging at the EPS. I was just curious,
    since I have heard other samples on other samplers that were close,
    but I haven't found as good a piano at the price (not counting the
    1000PX, which ain't bad at all but doesn't do sampling)
    
    I use my bank-o-pianos regularly, and it is very realistic, especially
    with outboard reverb. But that was only one reason I chose the EPS
    over the other samplers on the market at the time.
    
    /pjh

    I didn't bother to look and see if this has been addressed in an
    earlier reply ... this was prompted by Chad Leigh's note in 1815.90. 

    The "31 note polyphony" of this thing appears to be the same marketing
    hype that was used in the "32 voice" MT32/D110 units.  As an aside, I
    played a D10 a few weeks ago and reviewed all 128 patches (count 'em)
    in the machine.  Not ONE used only 1 partial, and close to 50% used
    more than 2 (making the thing effectively a 10 or 8 voice machine). 

    Anyway, not having played a long time with the U110 but having done a
    bit of reading, it appears that any complex tone (eg, piano) will
    require at least 2 "voices" (whatever a voice consists of in this
    context) to play a decent patch.  In short, it appears that the U110 is
    (in concept) similar to the Korg M1 with twice as many "osciallators"
    or "voices", and certainly NOT 31 note polyphonic as the hype suggests. 

    Does anyone know something different?  I'd like to be wrong on this
    one.

-b

    Just as an aside, the MT-32, which shares a lot in common with this
    family, tends to run out around 14 to 16 individual notes being played
    (not counting the drum parts which are not allocated, or are even a
    part of the patches - there are a few percussion patches that will
    eat layers however - as long as you are using MIDI channel 10 for the
    drums).

    I find that I use the MT-32 as the primary drummer & the most of it's
    sounds to emulate missing musicians, but I rarely use it for solo's.
    I either play a solo on guitar or have my keyboard player solo. In
    this situation, 14 to 16 active notes (no matter what patches are
    being played) is usually not a problem. If I had to use it for solo's
    at the same time, I would quickly run out of available notes & would
    be subject to a seemingly random loss of random notes (as the system
    dynamically re-allocates layers for various Timbres). In other words,
    this limitation is only a problem is you are using the LA MT-32
    architecture to its limits. If you were planning on using additional
    SGU's (we use a CZ-101, ESQ-1, non-MIDI Mini-Moog, non-MIDI Korg &
    definately a non-MIDI Hammond M-3), I'd guess that you would not find
    it as limiting as you suspect.

							    Jens
    

> < Note 1671.23 by HPSRAD::NORCROSS "Schedule, Schedule, and Schedule." >
>                              -< Second Impression >-
> As expected, the 31 note polyphony claim only holds true if you're using
>      the simplest of  tones.    From what I gathered, tones could either
>      use up 1 note of  polyphony  or 2 notes of polyphony - so the worst
>      case would leave a total of  16  notes  of  polyphony.   The 1 note
>      tones were either single samples or 2  velocity  switched  samples.
>      The 2 note tones were either doubled samples  or  2  velocity mixed
>      samples.
> I hope it goes down to $700 real soon.

Anyone see these *in  stock*  yet?   I know Wurlies had some demo units,
     and they sold those right off the racks before even getting them in
     stock. Chad, you mentioned Daddy's. Do they have them in stock?

I still hope they go down to $700 real soon.

/Mitch

    
    Dumb question....this thing really has *31* note polyphony?  Where
    did the other note go?  8^)  8^)  8^)
    
    It suggests a pretty bizarre hardware architecture.....
    
    

RE: Mitch about Daddy's availability?

Don't know. They have one in their rack, and a lot of their stuff they sell
is in their rack...  Give them a call.

Daddy's Nashua  603-888-1160

Talk to Matt or Tim and tell them Chad sent you!!!

Chad

    > Dumb question....this thing really has *31* note polyphony?  Where
    > did the other note go?  8^)  8^)  8^)
    
    This missing phony is the Roland guy that had the balls to
    the MT-32 "32 voice polyphonic".
    
    ;-{<
    
    	db

I am now  the  proud  owner  of  a Roland U-110.  9 bills, EU Wurlies in
     Framingham.

I played with the device from 9  till  3 last night.  I just re-read all
     of the comments in this topic.  All  of  my  previous  observations
     still hold true (replies .21, .23, .24).
     
--------------
Bad point #1) It doesn't respond  to MIDI pan info (controller #10).  It
     has a stereo output pair, but the stereo is only used for producing
     the built in chorus/tremelo effects.

Bad point #2) If you route a part to one of the  separate  outputs  then
     you  need  to  set  a  limit  on the number of voices that  can  be
     simultaneously played through that  output.  (This is actually more
     complicated than it sounds, but it's  a  long story:  voice groups,
     output modes, output assigns, etc.).  Where  do  they dream up this
     stuff?  I haven't actually experienced this drawback yet, but we'll
     see.

Bad point #3) The slowest attack rate that you can  get  on  the  string
     and choir samples is a bit too fast for me.

Good point  #1)  To me, the documentation and user interface  are  quite
     good.  I think that all of the complexity and ambiguities stem from
     the hardware/sound architecture itself, not from the documentation.
     I  think  the  documentation and u/i  guys  did  a  real  good  job
     considering  what  was  probably  thrown  over the  wall  at  them.
     Included  are  some excellent pictures of the overall  architecture
     and user interface.  I haven't had to read much yet at all.

     The user interface is  indeed  much  better that that of the D-110.
     It is completely menu driven,  real  nice.  They may have made it a
     little too flexible (in terms of  the number of levels of hierarchy
     involved  in  the  sound  architecture and in  the  output  routing
     capabilities), but I suppose it's better to have  too  much than it
     is to have too little.

Good point #2) To me, the sounds are what I have  been  waiting  for for
     about 4 months now (satisfactory piano, strings, and choirs).


-------------
Questions?

/Mitch

    Mitch, I'm toying with the idea of getting one or maybe waiting
    for a Proteus. What was it that made you decide to go with the 110
    as opposed to wait? I know that the Proteus is still a promise,
    but although the 110 sounded good to me (albeit a little noisy on
    some of the patches), I can't make up my mind whether to wait or
    bite the bullet now.
    Comments?
    
    Ken
    

> < Note 1671.36 by TROA01::HITCHMOUGH >
>                              -< U-110 vs Proteus >-

Hi Ken,

Why did I  get  the  U-110 instead of waiting?  'Cause I've been waiting
     for 4 months, and if  I  wait  another  2 I'll probably find a good
     reason to wait an additional 6.    Basically, I am tired of waiting
     for the next best thing.  The U-110 gives me what I've been waiting
     for.  I've been stifled without a piano and strings.  Now I can get
     back into musical creation once again.  The Proteus  sounds  great,
     especially  the  3  stereo  output  pairs, but I couldn't wait  any
     longer.

/Mitch

    Hi Mitch, I can't argue with your reasons at all!! I'm currently
    using an S-330 so I can get the sounds you were missing.
    The problem that usually stifles me is thinking the next piece of
    gear is the one I need to break through the "creativity barrier".
    This time I'm trying to make a concsious effort not to go and buy
    a 110 "because it's there" even though I think I need it. So hopefully
    I'll end up getting what I want instead of what I think I need.
    
    Ken
    

Bad point #4) The level envelope parameters are specified at the "patch"
     level (per part) instead  of  at  the  "tone" level.  (I think they
     should have had an intermediate  level  for  instantiating the same
     tone more than once with different  envelopes - on the D110 this is
     the "timbre" level - in which case I  could  have  done without the
     "patch" level.)

Bad point #5) The noise is definitely bothersome.

/Mitch

> Bad point #5) The noise is definitely bothersome.

Good News:  The noise that people have been complaining about (including
     myself) is only  present  if  you  use  the built in chorus/tremolo
     effects.  Using an  'output  mode'  which  bypasses  these  effects
     gets rid of the noise almost 100%. Heres a quote from the manual:

     "When using the Effect, Output  modes...However,  noise may be more
     conspicuous in the effect sound."

Sigh (of  releif).   I am much more satisfied  with  the  sound  quality
     with the effects turned off.

More good/bad news:  When using the  stereo  outs,  you can get distinct
     positioning  of 'parts' in the stereo field.    This  is  how  they
     created the 'wide piano' patch.  The bad  news  is  that  once  you
     place a part into a distinct output position, you  have to pick the
     max number of voices to be allocated to that position  (same as for
     separate  individual  outputs).      Also,    this   is  completely
     undocumented in the manual.  I discovered it while trying to figure
     out how they did the 'wide piano' patch.  Also,  as  far as my ears
     could  tell,  one  or  two  of  the  stereo positions seemed to  be
     redundant.

----------
I suppose one should keep in mind that while I seem to be talking mostly
     about  all  the  bad  points, there are inherent good points - like
     having instant  access  (0 load time, 0 setup time) to 100 possible
     sampled tones (I estimate  about 40 of these to be of direct use to
     me). I'm looking forward to the add-on cards.

Ramblin',
/Mitch

From:	SUBSYS::ORIN         "Dave Orin NKS1-2/H6 DTN:291-7094" 10-MAR-1989 15:22
To:	HPSRAD::NORCROSS
CC:	ORIN
Subj:	U110

Hi Mitch,

I am considering getting a U110. I saw your notes in COMMUSIC. You mentioned
some "noise" problems, etc. How do you like the U110 now? Is it doing the
job? Have you checked out the new ROM cards yet? How is the documentation
and ease of use?

I listened to the built-in demo last night, and it sounds fantastic.

Any info will be greatly appreciated.

dave

From:	HPSRAD::NORCROSS     "Shape up, or Ship out." 14-MAR-1989 09:46
To:	SUBSYS::ORIN,NORCROSS    
Subj:	RE: U110

Hi Dave.   Sorry for the dalay, I have been out skiing for an extended
weekend.

I am very happy with the U-110. As I explained in the conference, the noise
problem only exists if you use the built-in digital chorus/tremelo, so don't
plan on using these.

Is it doing the job?  yup. for me, it is providing great piano/string/chorus
sounds. It also has great sax, marimbas, and brass/trumpets, good electric
pianos.

I checked out the "orchestral strings" card at wurlies. i decided against it
since for $75, all you really get is a violin, a cello, a pizicatto, and a
harp. i already have a good pizicatto and harp (D110) and didn't need a violin
or cello desparately (although they did sound excellent).

i just purchased the "latin percussion/fx" card at daddy's in nashua n.h.
yesterday. they only charge $65 and they are tax-free. this card has LOT's
of latin stuff (similar to the d110, but better quality in most cases).
i bought it mostly for the LOT's of fx that are on it. "boing's", "zing's",
"scratches", "space" type fx, glass breaking, best orchestra hit i've heard,
pinball machinery, typerwriter machinery, and others. they set it up
pretty nice - a couple of patches with all these sounds located across the
keyboard, then a whole bunch of patches with each individual sound spread
across the keyboard (so you can use them really "slowed down" or really
"sped up").

user interface is MUCH better than the D110. It is menu driven.

I can complain about at least one thing in the architecture. that is, the
level envelopes are specified on a per part basis, so if you have a slow
attack/release envelope for a string sound, then you call up a different
tone in that part (say, a percussive tone), the envelope remains the same
and you end up with a slow attack/release envelope on a tone that can't
really use it. the way i avoid this is i have "reserved" different parts
for different envelopes - 2 parts get a "normal" envelope, and the others
get various combinations of slower attack/release rates. this way if i want
particular envelope for a particular sound, i have to know which part (midi
channel) to call it up on. it works for me.

(i don't use the 64 different patches - i just use one MULTI-SET pacth,
then i call up different tones within each part. "Virtual instruments"
is what i like to think of them as.)

feel free to ask specifics.

talk to you later.

/Mitch

btw...

I had a friend  and  his Emu Emax over a few weeks ago.  We chose to use
     the  U110 acoustic  piano  over  the  Emax  acoustic  piano  (grand
     piano?).  The U110  sounded significantly better.  The Emax sounded
     quite "fake" in comparison.

/Mitch

    I'd like to hear it compared to the Proteus.

-b

    
    Actually, I'd like to hear the U110, Proteus, and M1r side by side.
    
    Mike D

< Note 1671.45 by MAY10::DIORIO "Cellulite Heroes never really diet" >
               -< Any more ROM-based units to add to the list? >-

    
The biggest advantage I can see to the U110 is the ROM/RAM card slots.
An optional disk drive port would be nice. The first Proteus units are
due in late April, and are already sold out. It may be awhile before
the stores have a demo unit. The Proteus will need to have vastly
superior sound quality to beat out the U110. I hope Roland can correct
the onboard effects noise problem. I'm looking for a replacement for the
D110.

dave

    
    Re: A disk drive port for the U110...
    
    I read something in Keyboard mag about some company (can't remember
    the name, dammit) that came out with a disk drive retrofit for the M1
    at the last NAMM show, so a precedent has been set for third party 
    development of things like this. 
    
    Mike D 

Sound Cards:

I checked out a few more sound cards recently.

One interesting architectual  feature:  The U110 recognizes the cards by
     "model number", not by  "slot  number".    In other words, when you
     setup the U110 to map  MIDI  PC  messages to tones you specify card
     number/tone number, where the card number  corresponds  to the card
     model  number  (1-99,  I  think), not which slot it's plugged into.
     uh...   In other words, the setups - as they relate to the optional
     cards - are  slot  independent...  you get the idea.  Implications?
     Well, what do 3rd  party  guys  do?    Do  they  get  unique "model
     numbers" from Roland?  What  will the machine do if you plug in two
     cards with the same number?  Will there be 3rd party cards?

Now, about the sounds...  ($65 per card is  the  cheapest  I've  seen  -
     Daddy's Junky Music)

Electric Grand/Clav -  2  basic  sound  types (Electric Grand and Clav),
     about 5 variations of  each.    Generally  sounded thin, but had at
     least one good electric grand  sound.    Useless  for  me  (for the
     money).

Ethnic - about 7 or so  basic sound types, about 3-5 variations on each.
     Some  interesting and intriguing sounds.  Almost  a  buy,  but  not
     quite.

Electric  Guitar  -  about  3  basic  sound  types    (Jazz,  Overdrive,
     Distortion),  about  20  (!) variations on each.  The  picked/muted
     Overdrive sounds  are  very  realistic.    The  velocity  switching
     (muted/no-muted) is especially effective.  Of all those variations,
     I find only a handful  to be useful.  For example, many of them are
     nothing  more  than  variations  on  which   harmonic  feeds  back.
     (Speaking of feedback, it mixes in too  slowly).    No  good  power
     chords, generally just single notes. I now own this card.

/Mitch

Daddy's in Nashua has 1 of the new U-20 keyboards.  This is basically
a U-110 with keyboard and a cleaned up audio path (less or no noise like U-110
has) according to the salesman.  I played with it a few minutes but time was
pressing.  I auditioned each patch a few seconds.  Some were ok, some great,
some interesting, some probably useless for normal work.  Lots of chorus/choir/
vox humana type sounds.  The acoustic Piano is pretty good.  Excellenmt trumpet.
Good strings.  Basses were just ok.  Several funny sounding patches with
funny names.

The manual says "Maximum voices:  up to 30 voices"
Probably same story as in U110.  The demos were good.

The price he said was $1500 "until we get more", which I took it to mean when 
they have a ton in the warehouse and not singletons.

Chad

    
    Just got one semi-demoed today (as usual, the salesman had no idea
    how to make *anything* happen).  Sounded great.  Keyboard has
    aftertouch (channel).  Takes up to two of the U-110 ROMs for additional
    sounds.  Has four drum kit setups.  Has two direct outs (no effects)
    plus the stereo mix (with effects).  Not the same as full seperate
    outs, but not bad.  Headphone jack, two assignable controllers,
    typical cryptic Roland user interface and manual.  Listening to
    the U-20 demo next to a D-10 demo and it's no contest.
    
    Len will be pleased to know that the on-board sample set includes
    JP-8 strings which sound heavenly.

>     One interesting architectual  feature:  The U110 recognizes the cards by
>     "model number", not by  "slot  number".    In other words, when you
>     setup the U110 to map  MIDI  PC  messages to tones you specify card
>     number/tone number, where the card number  corresponds  to the card
>     model  number  (1-99,  I  think), not which slot it's plugged into.

    The U-20 allows you to select 31 of them (1-31).  This is an
    interesting problem.  You get zero access time but you're stuck
    with whatever Roland and anyone they might allow to build cards
    wants to put on them.  Notice that in the first seven cards there's
    no acoustic pianos.  You're left with the built-in one (which is
    good) and if you need a tack piano or something, you're (temporarily)
    out of luck.  Compared to E-mu's approach of no add-on sounds, the
    ROM cards are cool but not quite as flexible as disks.  Opening
    up the card format to third parties will be the key here; notice
    that Korg has promised to allow third party ROMs for the M1.
    
     

    re .50 - len doesn't care a whole lot if they've sampled the Jupiter's
    strings into the U-20, as len has the Jupiter strings in his Super
    Jupiter.
    
    ;^)
    
    len.
    

    
    Re: .52
    
    I know, just thought you could say "toldjaso".
    
    Re: .50
    
    After a second demo, different store:
    
    -Effects now include digital reverb in addition to a cleaned up
    chorus/tremelo.  Overall signal path is higher fidelity than U-110.
    They call the new technology "resynthesis" and the logo, or "RS-PCM".
    
    -The envelope bug that Mitch found is fixed.  ADSR is now part of
    the *timbre* in the U-20.  You can set ADSR, pitch bend (bend wheel
    range plus "autobend"/glide rate), vibrato/mod depth and rate but
    no *filtering* of samples is possible.
    
    - Six part multi-timbral plus one "rhythm" part (using one of the
    four drum kits).  Assuming that the drums use up some of the 31
    note polyphony, but *still* unconfirmed.  At the "sound" level
    you can set up splits/layers/zones, etc.
    
    - Will accept poly aftertouch but only sends channel.
    
    - Two chord memories plus an *arpeggiator* that will broadcast over
    MIDI.  You can assign the arpeggiator to a different channel than
    the keyboard, i.e. have one module play the arpeggio while another
    pads the chord.  These two features were common on pre-MIDI synths,
    nice to see them coming back (speaking as an all-thumbs keyboardist).
    
    - Assignable out:  Stereo mix out plus stereo direct out.  To use
    effects you go through the mix.  You can assign:
    
    	1. Dry to mix, pannable across the stereo field
    	2. Dry to direct, pannable
    	3. Reverb and/or chorus/trem to mix, pannable
    
    Not as good as full multi-outs but can be used as four independent
    outs through use of panning. Also has a voice reserve parameter
    which prevents the dynamic allocation from swiping voices from
    important parts.
    
    - Two sliders can be mapped to any continuous controller.  One doubles
    as a value slider for data entry.
    
    - List $1695, store prices $1425 at Union in Worc. MA, $1495 at
    Daddy's in Shrewsbury MA.
    

I'm picking up a U110 this weekend at Wurlitzer's in Portsmouth. 

This is a demo one from the rack in the store:

    $650 !

Prices for new ones are $699.

They are charging $60 apiece for additional cards.

-Dan

RE < Note 1671.42 by HPSRAD::NORCROSS "Shape up, or Ship out." >

> i just purchased the "latin percussion/fx" card at daddy's in nashua n.h.

	Would you mind listing the sounds out that are on this card?

	Dan

Card Number 02 - Latin Percussion and FX - Best card of the bunch.  /Mitch
01 - latin 1    (First 7 programs are various "keyboard setups" of
02 - latin 2     all the other tones).
03 - latin 3
04 - FX 1
05 - FX 2
06 - FX 3
07 - FX 4
08 - conga 1
09 - conga 2
10 - conga 3
11 - bongo
12 - claves
13 - timbale
14 - tambourine
15 - wood block
16 - whistle
17 - triangle
18 - belltree
19 - jinglebell
20 - vibraslap
21 - castanet
22 - maracas
23 - agogo 1
24 - agogo 2
25 - cuica 1
26 - cuica 2
27 - guiro 1
28 - guiro 2
29 - guiro 3
30 - berimbau
31 - shekele
32 - steel drum
33 - log drum
34 - orchestra hit
35 - siren
36 - typewriter 1
37 - typewriter 2
38 - clock
39 - pinball
40 - telephone
41 - smash glass
42 - rezno
43 - eerie
44 - ambia jr
45 - temple block
46 - zing!
47 - boing!
48 - mod zap
49 - interface
50 - scratch (as in rap music)
51 - stake
52 - zappu

I picked up one of these over the weekend to add to my rack. The grungy 
sound that I've heard so much about has been exagerated. You can hear the
noise when a patch starts & sometimes at the tail end of a patch, but you
have to be looking for it to hear it. In general, it sounds mighty good
to me.

I haven't played with it that much as of yet, but I do notice that some
of the tom toms are different than those of the MT-32 and the D-110, however,
since I used the drum notes from my TR-505 (and those are consistant with
the MT-32/D-110/U-110) My sequences will be able to use them both.

I bought it because I needed more notes than the MT-32 and the FB01 can
supply (And I really wanted a more expressive SAX). Since I tend to double
things such as BASS guitar, I'll be duplicating the Bass tracks & playing
them on both the MT-32 and the U-110. Fun stuff, especially since I can get
my MX-8 to do this without changing my sequences beyond a patch select in
the first measure (where my four beat countdown is done & all of my other
patch changes are also done). 

							Jens

	I had one but I sent it back.  It had a broken switch and it wasn't 
going to meet my needs.

	One of the things I had hoped to do by buying it was to sell off my 
piano in favor of a more comprehensive master controller (like a KX76/88).
But the piano sounds just didn't match up to the ones on my RD200 (to my ears
and for my kind of music).  Another thing I had hoped was to get a decent 
sounding acoustic bass.  But the a.bass patch in it was not very high in quality
to my ears.  All in all, its not a bad piece of equipment, but it didn't have 
enough bang for my buck in the system I'm working with.  (It did have nice 
strings, choir, and flute, though).

	Dan

    Just a quick note about the flute - 
    
    It sounds good until you pick up on the fact that the vibrato speeds
    up or slows down with the pitch. Not enough sample points or
    something like that. I liked the piano and basses and strings, as
    I remember, but I only had a quick demo of it. Just as a side comment,
    I think the best flute I've ever heard, and certainly the most
    expressive is the woodflute and perhaps the regular flute on the
    VFX. You can really vary the vibrato with after touch, and it
    sounds great!
                 
    Bill

RE < Note 1671.59 by NRADM::KARL "It's computerized, no thing c,an go wrong nothing c an g" >

	Ahh, but you NEED to vary the vibrato speed, especially on wind 
instruments.  When a high note is played, the vibrato is almost always faster 
than when a lower one is played.  I realize what you're getting at about the 
multi-sample split points.  

	I have plans to modify a flute patch on my Matrix-6R such that the 
vibrato speed is modulated by the position of the key being played on the 
keyboard (i.e. play a higher note, it speeds up the vibrato, play a lower note, 
it slows it down).  That's the beauty of a flexible matrix modulation scheme -
you avoid the drastic jumps from one speed to another like you get on the U110
at its split points.

	Dan

Something like a flute or a sax should never be sampled with vibrato, IMHO.

Steve

    Steve,
    The flute on the Kurzweil PX was sampled with vibrato, and you can't
    vary the vibrato as it is part of the sample. It's a nice vibrato,
    but I love the flute on the VFX because you can add whatever depth
    to the vibrato that you want with after touch, while there is no
    vibrato on the patch sample itself. I'd like to know how to program
    this, as I have a fair to good flute patch on my ESQ-M, and a decent
    one on my D50, but I really want that vibrato control.
    
    RE: Dan's reply - one of the things that I didn't like about the
    U-110 patch was the fact that you had no control over the vibrato,
    and therefore could not control this aspect of the expressiveness
    of the flute. It also sounded kind of un-natural to me, especially
    when playing long notes in sequence on different notes of the scale.
    
    I see your point though about the fact that the vibrato is suppose
    to vary in this way.
                        
    Bill

	Since I can't find a separate note on U20's...

	I have plunked on a few keys on the U20's and for the most part I like
it.  Still has a rotten electric piano (IMO).  

	It has one patch on it that I have looked for for YEARS and have not 
found - a killer B3.  I mean you can feel the friction of the spinning tone
wheels!  I think its called "Mad Organ".  If I had money to burn, I'd buy it
just for that patch alone.

	Dan (who doesn't have money to burn)

    Dan,
    
    I had the *pleasure* of playing the U20 a while ago (I won't say
    where since I don't want the police at my door after I break into
    his apartment ;-)
    
    (great...now his apartment will be robbed and I'll be blamed...
    this could be my "Bryant Gumble" note ;-)
    
    Anyway, I agree with all your assessments and would add (and never
    thought I'd ever say this) that the grand piano is FAR superior
    to the Kurzweil grand!
    
    I'm now selling my dog to buy the U220.  She was a nice doggie,
    very loyal...but hey...there's an SGU out there just beggin' to
    take her place!
    
    (just kidding of course....)
    
    I'll go back to my hole now.
    
    Steve
 

RE < Note 1671.64 by NRPUR::MCCONNELL "Member of the FSW....wanna join?" >

	Funny you should say that about the piano - I hate the piano samples 
they put into these sample players - too tinny, the sustain is to unnatural...
I'll take the Rd200 pianos (SA synthesis - same as your MKS20) over the sample
player pianos any day.

	Dan

    I picked up a U-110 a few weeks ago, from Building 19, sans
    documentation. Could someone please loan me theirs long enough for me
    to do a photocopy?
    
    Thanks, Hoyt @ 297-2325

    Call Roland and order one -- probably about $15
    Ask for parts and service dept.
    
    Chad
    

    I'm shopping for a keyboard.  The U20 has caught my ear: I'd like to
    get some opinions in this 'board from the experts...Hey, I'm just a 
    guitar player =8^) 
    
    I plan to use this instrument playing with the band I'm in. Ease of use
    in a performance setting is a requirement, as is portability and
    ruggedness.  Since I'm fairly illterate when it comes to synths (I 
    consider a DX7 to be a really cool instrument), I almost don't what 
    questions to ask.  I need good piano, organ, strings, horn section,
    and synth sounds.  This instrument would be the only keyboard; that is,
    I'm not planning to use it as a controller for other synths.
    
    How does the U-20 compare to the Roland D-5?  What is the cost for the
    U-20 local to the Boston area?  What questions should I be asking?

	I quite liked the U220 I had on loan for a few months.  It would
	cover your basic sound needs.  Daddy's in Nashua recently had
	a used one for $899.  That should be a guide.

	Chad

>>>    How does the U-20 compare to the Roland D-5?  What is the cost for the
    
    If you're used to using D-5 sounds, the U20 will blow you away!! I was
    going to get a U220 (rack mount version of U20) but chose a Korg M3
    instead as the preset sounds suited me better. Both units are vastly
    superior to the D5, though.
    
    Tony (D5 owner!)

    Confusion reigns!  It seems the keyboards I should be examining are the
    Roland U-20, the Korg M3, ...?  Could someone who is knowledgeable 
    about hardware in this general price range add any other synths that I
    should test driving?
    
    BTW, re -.1, I'm not really 'used' to any sounds, save those of a DX7;
    remember, I'm a guitarist who's shopping for a first synth to be used
    in band.
    
    Also, Mods, I see this note is starting to diverge from the basenote 
    topic.  Should I move my request to another note?  If so, could you 
    pass me a pointer, please?  I'm kinda new to this conference, so pardon
    blunders.
    
    Thanks.

    RE: .-1
    
    I would give serious consideration to the Ensoniq line, in this price
    range, that might mine the VFX-SD (which has been replaced by the
    SD-1 and is being "blown out" at mind-boggling prices like $999).
    
    The VFX-SD has the easiest-to-use and yet most sophisticated
    builtin-sequencer (24 tracks!) of anything of its kind IMHO.
    
    But be warned here that we've mentioned both "sample players" and
    "synthesizers" and they are substantially different beasts.  The
    sample players will give you a limited number of more realistic
    sounds.  The synths will give you a virtually unlimited number
    of somewhat less realistic sounds.
    
    However, it should be noted that most synths (like the VFX) have got
    hot rodded sounds for the most commonly used samples (piano, organ,
    strings, brass, etc.) and thus for THOSE sounds, there may not
    be much of a disadvantage over a sample player.
    
    In fact, there may even be an advantage - I've found for example that
    the ability to more precisely process the organ sounds in my VFX
    ultimately give me MUCH better organ sounds than the sampled organ
    sounds in my U-220 (sample player).  This is because synths generally
    give you more processing capabilities like filtering, modulation,
    etc. than sample players.
    
    	db - who is currently converting his own personal favorite "killer"
    	     ESQ-1 organ sound over to the VFX (it's ALMOST there)

    Acton Music Store is advertising the U-20 for $899.
    508 263-9288

	Could someone with a U20 (and also an M1) tell me what the power
	inputs are?

	are they 110/120 60hz? or 110/120 50/60hz?  (or 110-240 50/60hz??? :-)

	Thanks

	Chad