Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
    
     Yeh. But whats it's vibraslap sound like?. =8^)
    
    
    RichC
    

    What sounds?  How much ($)?  Additional sounds on cards?  What sound
    editing capabilities?
    
    Really, the MIDI implementation chart is pretty close to worthless
    all by itself.
    
    len.
    

    I was curious enough about this unit to call some shops and ask about
    it. Found out that (a) Alesis has a tough policy with dealers which
    doesn't allow them to discount gear for at least 180 days; and that (b)
    the list on this baby is $399. Since my interest at this point is
    really just curiosity, that's all I found out.
    
    Bob

            <<< DNEAST::SYS$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]COMMUSIC.NOTE;2 >>>
             -< * * Computer Music, MIDI, and Related Topics * * >-
================================================================================
Note 2711.0                         Alesis D4                         No replies
WEORG::WIEGLER                                       10 lines   3-SEP-1991 09:01
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Has anyone seen/tried/bought the new Alesis D4?
    
    It's a one-space rack mount drum trigger to midi interface complete
    with sounds loaded in.  I believe it has inputs for 9 drum triggers or
    pads.  Retail price is $399.
    
    That's all I know about it.  Anyone know more?
    
    	Thanks,
    	Willy

    I saw one at ProSound in Colorado Springs (funny coincidence; I live
    there) and can tell you some more (not much).
    
    It has 509 built in samples.  Hmmm.  I haven't gone through all of them
    (maybe 100 at most) but they sound very clean.  Most seem useful, but
    then again only a discriminating electronic drummer could make that
    determination.  For example, there are five types (banks?) of sounds: 
    Bass drums, Snare drums, Tom toms, Percussion, and Special Efx.  There
    are 99 basses, 99 snares, some 80? toms, 99 percussion, and whatever
    else in efx.
    
    I don't see this as much of a hit in the pre-packaged music business
    (mild flame towards today's top 40 etc.) because it doesn't have a
    sequencer.  But, it is exactly what I need and YES I AM ACTUALLY GOING
    TO BUY SOMETHING INSTEAD OF JUST READING THIS CONFERENCE AND WISHING.
    
    Hear that len, db, dbii, etc.?  Mike Bell is going to BUY a D-4
    (finally...ahh).
    
    I will post a review if anyone would like, probably within four weeks
    depending on how fast it ships/arrives.
    
    Mike Bell
    
    P.S.  It does have 12 yes 12 trigger inputs as well as a hi-hat switch
    (big deal I'm a Zildjian purist)

    I'd certainly like to hear a review.
    
    	db

    Has anyone tried one yet??? Looking forward to a review.
    
    Mike____

            <<< DNEAST::SYS$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]COMMUSIC.NOTE;2 >>>
             -< * * Computer Music, MIDI, and Related Topics * * >-
================================================================================
Note 2763.0            Announced in Switzerland in October            No replies
GVA05::BOULMIER "Tout est dans tout et y participe"   7 lines   1-NOV-1991 06:43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I already ordered it in Swizterland one month ago, still waiting...
    
    I already have a Emu Procussion but the Alesis has some powerfull
    sounds I am looking for, in fact I'd like to have an HR-16 but I am a
    module addict, so...still waiting.
    
    Patrick

    Hi guys, I ordered about a week and a half ago, still waiting.  I think
    they were back ordered from this place (which I'm putting in dealer
    contacts).  As soon as I rip it open I'll get working on one.
    
    -=mikie=-

    Hi all,
    		I had a chance to play with the DR4 and 6 Roland pads. I
    only tinker with Keyboards my interests is in triggering from my Drum
    Kit. I compared it with an SR16 at the same shop. The DR4 had all SR16
    stuff plus tons more. I contacted my cousin (a dealer in the midwest)
    He is sending me 1 and six simmons triggers.
    	As I find out pro's and con's I will post them. A side note, Colo
    Sprgs was recently visited by Tony Verdosa and the Yamaha team. The
    gear was much more expensive and from a drummer's perspective I can't
    justify 3X the cost.
    
    	Just an opinion.
    			Rich

    What would the DR4 plus Simmons triggers cost if one didn't have a
    cousin in the business? What would it cost with all the ancillary
    doodads, e.g. mounting hardware, pedals, etc. ?

    A lot.  I know, I've been researching the best prices for quite some
    time now.  Here's a run down, plus an example:
    
    D4		$350 + shipping (of course)
    pads	$95 each simmons (Chuck's) or $104 each dauz
    bass	$169 roland pd-11
    patch cord	$5 each
    bass pedal	$60 mail order
    hi hat	$70 gibraltar
    rack	$149 gibraltar
    multiclamp	$20?
    tom arm	$13?
    amp		$300 or so for KB-300
    
    Each drum needs a pad, a multiclamp, a tom arm, and a patch cord. 
    That's up to 11 pads on a D4 (including the bass).
    
    Then you have cymbals:
    
    hats	$125-150 
    crashes	$90-150
    rides	$100-200
    special	$50-175
    cymbal arm	$15?
    multiclamp	$20?
    
    Each cymbal (except hats) require an arm and a clamp.
    
    All prices and types are Zildjian, quoted in general from Victor Litz. 
    They sell Zildjian for 50% off list.
    
    So, you're looking at anywhere from $1500 to $2500 for a basic ->
    advanced kit.
    
    Mike

    If I'm looking for semi-silent playing (the sound of sticks hitting
    pads only) then are the D4 (or competitor) cymbols adequate? I'm not
    a very advanced drummer (I just evolved a notochord last week).

    The cymbal sounds in most modern drum boxes are (finally!) adequate
    these days, but triggering them requires a pad per cymbal.  For a
    playing drummer, pads just don't play like cymbals, hence the
    MIDI/acoustic hybrid Mike describes (exactly what I did when I was
    playing).
    
    Also, there's as yet no "hihat pad" that comes close to duplicating the
    expressive control of a mechanical hihat pedal.  I imagine if someone
    were so inclined, it would be possible to make a "hihat pad" with a
    pedal that switched between several different note numbers to be sent
    when the pad was struck, based on how far down the pedal was pushed,
    so that "closed", "quarter open", "half open" etc. could be triggered
    at the drum box.  The pedal would also have to be able to detect a
    "top to bottom" sweep and send a NOTE ON for "pedal closed hihat"
    (with velocity) without the pad being struck, to simulate a pedal
    closed hihat.  It ought to be possible to build such a device using
    a standard hihat stand, a handful of position sensors, and a little
    box full of logic.  It ought to be programmable as to the note numbers
    sent (the simplest interface would be a pair of thumbwheel switches
    for each position; a fancier one would entail a display and cursor
    and value up/down buttons).
    
    An entrepreneurial opportunity for someone...
    
    len.
     

    Note I am a cymbal purist and would never consider electronic cymbals
    despite my love of electronics.  All prices were real cymbals;  I don't
    believe you would be satisfied without them.
    
    Real cymbals always sound good to me; it's only real drums that I have
    a problem with.  You have to spend so much money on a good kit and then
    make sure your room is soundproofed and then buy shure mics and then
    mixers and then effects and then...?  It's cheaper for me to just get
    the canned kit and it sounds great, too.  Only two outputs to a mixer.
    
    Funny, I guess it's the low frequencies I have a hard time with.  Like
    I said, real cymbals work fine!  Oh well, most drummers think I'm sick
    in the head for it, anyway, so don't listen to me...
    
    -=mikie=-

    Good cymbals are an addiction of sorts - my cymbal case weighs 85
    pounds (with the cymbals in it of course); I have three rides, eight
    crashes, and two sets of hihats...  In my normal setup, I only use
    four of the crashes, two of the rides and one hihat.  It's only with
    the Roland R-8M with all three RAM card slots full that I can come
    close to this kind of cymbal sound capability.
    
    len.
    

    Hi,
    	Just a side note the DR4 cost me $320 to get it to the Springs.
    There is not a lot of mark up for the dealer, so I think the earlier
    quoted price would be more than fair. I currently have not found an
    electronic cymbal sound that I would replace my Zildjians with.
    	Hope to have the DR in a few days,
    
    	Anxious!

    
    Yeah, I guess hope is the operating word here.  I've had mine on order
    for eight weeks since the local dealer got their demo...what's the
    deal?
    
    I hope Alesis didn't screw up again and make 19 units for the first
    run.  I'm really getting anxious, and Christmas is too close.  If I
    don't get it by then....
    
    <...flames...>
    
    Mike
    
    

    You two may have a lot in common !!

    ;^)   ;^)   ;^)
     
/doug

    P.S. 

    If you don't get it, you might want to browse through Edd's saga
    in the HR16 topic (1064, I think.)

    
    You're right, Doug!  Now I remember the Alesis disease....
    
    I think I actually met Edd Cote when I was a senior at Acton-Boxborough
    High School.  I went to an Ensoniq clinic where they showed off the
    *new* VFX and the proven EPS.  I also met my good friend Dave Orin
    there, who I believe pointed Edd out.
    
    Well, my friend has a Yamahahaha DSP-1000 surround sound processor for
    his 100" Sharpvision TV (guy's loaded) and he's gonna let me hook the
    D4 in there to get that HUGE sound (I'm actually impressed with the
    Yamaha unit), so I really can't wait....
    
    Mike (or -=mikie=-, whatever)
    
    P.S.  What IS that second D for, Edd?  I can't remember note 17xx?  ;-D
    

    The second "d" is the result of a horrible accident I had during my 
    early days as a musician, back in the days of analog delays. The
    details are too painfull to recant, even now...
    
    Edd

    
    AHA!  Sheldon of the Music Depot called me today, with D4 in hand!  So
    I shall be getting it on Saturday (if UPS delivers blue on Sat) or
    Monday.
    
    Yippee!!!!!
    
    -=mikie=-

    It's in my shaking hands as I speak (well, on my lap I can't type
    otherwise) and I will post a review, probably very very late tonight.
    
    ;-)
    
    -=mikie=-
    
    BTW, the manual is VERY GOOD.  And, the unit so far is VERY GOOD.
    Three thumbs up for me, will tell more later...

    >Three thumbs up for me, will tell more later...
    
    Hmmm.  Sounds like you have the same problem I do when it comes to
    keyboard chops ...
    
    Steve

    Here's my first try at a review, please ask if you have questions; I'm
    pretty tired now.
    
    
The Alesis D4 "high sample rate 16 bit drum module w/ stereo samples" is pretty
much what it sounds like.  It is a full featured sample player, as well as
trigger interface.  I'll organize this review in pretty much the same way the
manual is laid out.

First off, the manual is very good.  It has well organized chapters subdivided
into numbered topics with a thorough table of contents for reference, and it
follows an easy to difficult scheme for presenting the different functions (in
other words, it helps beginners become experts).

Some of this might happen to be quoted without permission from the user's
guide; the only reason I will is because they paraphrased better than I could.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Key features:

500+ sounds:  99 kicks, 99 snares, 55 cymbals, 92 toms, 76 percussion, 80
effects.

48 kHz sample rate, 20-20kHz bandwidth  * note signal to noise is not given *

18 bit DAC  * from seperate brochure that came with it *

12 trigger inputs

Full MIDI implementation (master volume, program change, pitch bend (see below))

Simultaneous trigger/MIDI operation

Trigger to MIDI conversion

Single rack space  * very short--only about 6 inches deep *

21 programmable kits

Main and Aux stereo outs

Velocity Sensitive Preview  * this is kinda a doubtful feature, see below *

Headphone jack

Hi hat pedal switch  * quite a complete implementation *

Note chasing for easier editing

Of course, sound editing

It defines a voice as, well, a voice.  With this unit, you don't have to worry
about "virtual polyphony" or any other synth jargon.  It is simply a 16 voice
sample player.  The samples can't be made to go on for more than about a 
second, so running out of voices probably won't happen.  It will probably sound
terrible if you try.

It has a notion of the Rx series tone control...it varies the sound based on
the velocity of the note.  This, it says, and I believe it, makes for a more 
realistic sound.

For each drum kit (of 21), you can program 5 octaves (61 keys) of notes that
correspond to MIDI note numbers.  What's nice is, you can program the offset
for those 61 keys, so you can start anywhere you like (well, up to 67 of
course). 

The archetecture is, that the triggers are converted to note numbers which is
then sent to the note bus (where incoming notes from MIDI are sent).  This 
implies to me that the trigger delay is large, probably like the Octapad, but
when I played it in the store (on pads) and at home (with a little piezo 
element) I don't notice it.

Ok, so programming a drum kit is fairly cool.  You can set up your own detailed
trigger parameters for each kit.  This includes the type and the note it
triggers.  Type means the type of error correction it uses to eliminate
crosstalk and other nuisances.  All (25) are presets which cannot be edited.
They are:

1-5 for pads with low noise floor (studio)
1 has least crosstalk suppression, 5 most

6-10 for pads, medium noise floor
1 has least suppresion, 5 most

11-15 for pads, high noise floor (concert)
1 has least, 5 most

16-20 for triggers, high noise floor, slow recovery time, crosstalk suppresion
16 least of above parameters, 20 most

21-25 for hard to detect attack transients (uses lesser attack slope)
again 21 least, 25 most

There is also an Unassigned type, which is really cool but takes away an input.
You take a piezo and stick it to your stand (for the drums giving you problems),
and set it to unassigned, and then choose types 16-20 for the other drums.
This will eliminate false notes caused by stand vibrations.

The gain is individually set for each of the pads, however this setting is 
global and is not saved with individual kits.  (To get sounds softer, you
change the voice, see below).

Footswitch mode:  you can either have the footswitch advance the program, or
control a hi hat.  This works rather well on the D4, because the footswitch
will trigger a pedal-closed hat sound.  (or anything else).  So, when you
stomp your foot down, it will play a sound.  Kinda nice.  Still can't do 
variable-closed hats, and I'd never play fake cymbals (maybe a splash or china
until I afford them) so a lot of the D4 is wasted on me.  Of course, it's still
worth the investment for all the rest.

One more thing before the voice particulars:  You can assign each key in your
MIDI note spread a different type of play characteristics.  Like the mode.  You
can set it to multi, where subsequent hits start a new voice if the first is
not finished.  There's single, so each hit restarts the same voice.  And there
are 2 (count 'em) group modes.  Whatever you set to group 1 will be able to
cut off any other group 1 if it is played.  Likewise, there is a group 2, so
if you have decent application for such a feature, you can have two different
sets of them going.  The only reason I can see for this is hat control, where
the pedal-closed shuts off the open.  Of course, certain long samples may be
unimportant enough to want to cut them off in case a more important note is
played.

Ok, VOICES!  Editing, by the way, is very very easy.  I'd compare it to the
VFX in terms of sitting down to it without the manual, and fooling around.
Each MIDI note number has its own sound, selected by bank and then number.
From here, you can pitch up 3 chromatic steps or down 4.  You can also do 
cent increments, within the bounds of the chromatic steps.  This sounds
limiting, but for the most part every sound is sampled three times over its
range, so you aren't missing out on the tuning part.  Each voice can then be
panned 7 steps (4 being middle...I think this is the same as the HR-16).  You
can alter the volume of the note.  And finally, you can assign it to the main
or aux outputs.

On to MIDI...the pitch bend doesn't really work.  Yeah, it will play a note 
higher in pitch if you crank the wheel, but it is not a dynamic controller.
In other words, you can bend a note in progress.  For most, that is not a
problem, and for those who it is, there are a couple of samples that bend.

It supports Omni and Poly modes; Poly on any channel and Omni sends on channel
one only.  This might be a disadvantage to existing set-ups, but the target
audience here is drummers, not MIDI sequence-type guys.  The Rx series would
much better suit them.  (of course for $350, how can you go wrong?)

You can toggle the MIDI out/thru port either way.  You can disable controllers
and program change (independently).

The best thing, in terms of live performance features, is the program change
table.  You can map MIDI programs 0-127 to any of the 21 internal programs.
Individually.  So, if for this song, your keyboardist changes to "xxx" patch,
you can have that set your kit without blinking.

The other real nice feature of the D4 is the Sys Ex dumps.  You can save (to
any capable receiver) the entire system data (8K), the program change table
data (150 bytes), the trigger setup (50 bytes), and the edit buffer (500
bytes).  The edit buffer, by the way, is the temporary change to a kit you
make, unless you either save the changes to the kit or change kits.

Therefore, in a gig, your keyboardist calls up a Sys Ex file and dumps it on
the line...and the D4 reads the incoming Sys Ex and AUTOMATICALLY and makes
the changes ordered.  Even while you're playing.  So, you could even have more
than 21 kits at a gig (why?) and just download them (2 seconds) each song.

I haven't said anything about the user interface, I'm getting fragmented, it's
late...here we go.

There's menu buttons for anything I've described above, and paging through them
can be done by pushing the button again, or by cursor key.

There's a data knob to select everything the cursor buttons highlight.  This
isn't too bad, but sometimes if you turn it too fast it goes wayyyy to fast
and blows past your desired selection by about two miles.  This is corrected
by slowing down.  However...

I HATE THAT PREVIEW BUTTON!  It really is *terrible*.  You have to hit it
very hard to get it to play with the velocity you need to hear the sound,
which hurts your finger, but also, if you don't make sure your finger bounces
off the pad, it plays neighboring notes!  Yes, if you hit the button and keep
your finger there (don't rebound), it will play sometimes a note lower than
the one selected, ora a note higher, or both.  Note that it still plays the
note selected.  So basically you get a whole BANG of an orchestra hti without
tuned instruments, etc., you get the picture.

Basically, I can't wait to get my pads because the preview HURTS.

I know I've left stuff out of this review, but I'm tired.  Any more questions,
just post 'em and I'd be glad to reply... 

    One more thing about the sounds.  I've previewed (OUCH) most of them. 
    My general impressions:  Great sampling.  Good amount of different
    snares.  I think they overkilled the kick drums, though.  A lot of them
    are very hard to tell apart.  I wish they'd have included more tunable
    sounds, like xylaphones.  I wish they put in a real orchastra hit.  I
    wish they'd have put less cymbals in there (so they could fill it up
    with things I need more).  But overall, you can't beat it.  The tom
    collection is great, and the electronic sounds (beautifully showcased
    in a preset kit called "Ol' Hex") would make Simmons people cry they're
    so good.
    
    And, it has a VIBRASLAP!  Two of 'em!!

    
    Ok, having first real problems.  I finally got some good studio
    headphones for X-mas and I'm noticing very bad noise levels even when
    at rest.  The samples, as far as I can tell, are clean.  I notice no
    harsher noise when they play, only a steady noise, like the difference
    between CD's and tapes.  Also, when I select drumkits or different
    sounds within drumkits for previewing (all this done by rotor wheel), I
    hear a digital grundge.  By this I mean a sound like modem talk only
    very very fast.  This also happens when a SysEx dumps is performed.
    
    The wall bug doesn't have a grounding plug...for some reason it sounds
    to me like a bad ground that the D/A converters and the CPU chips
    share, which pulls the signal around the main chips.
    
    Either way you slice it, I'm calling Alesis on Friday or Monday and
    rattling some chains.  If this problem is not fixable (remember the
    suspicious S/N ratio data was missing...hmmm!) I'll demand money back
    and get KAT/Roland pair (take me a while longer, more money).
    
    It may be fun and easy to use, but noise is a no-go.
    
    Mike

    Hi Mike,
    		I've not been having these problems. I use Simmons triggers
    and am currently using my stereo for playback. I hope the problem is
    resolved by Alesis for you.
    
    		Rich

    Hi,
    
    Maybe this reply is of general interest and not only dedicated to the
    D4 specifically, feel free to move it , Mr Moderator.
    
    Just having added a D4 to my rack, I run into this confusion when
    customizing the drum sets with regard to panning and choosing the
    available outputs;
    
    Given that the D4 is capable of panning individual sounds in the stereo
    field and also each sound can be routed to any of the outputs makes me
    look at the unit to having 4 separate mono outputs, even if I loose
    some of the stereo effects. I then want to take advantage of my two FX
    devices fed from the mixers effect sends 1 & 2. 
    
    I like to have your opinions on the two scenarios for hooking up and
    customizing the sounds.
    
    1. Connect it and treat it as 2 separate stereo outputs and setting
    each sound's output to either out 1 or out 2 depending on the type of
    FX (mostly reverb) that is most likly to be used on the type of sounds.
    
    2. The same physical connection but treating it like 4 separate mono
    outputs with the sound panned hard left or right. This would give me 
    4 "groups" of sounds to send through 4 different effect sends, still
    only two FX types, of course.
    
    Could you also try to help me with some of your experiencies with what
    drum sounds (types) could be grouped together and sent into the same
    FX. i.e. snare would always need a different FX from kicks and hi-hats
    and so on.  
    
    How do you add FX to your (electronic) drums when sequencing??
    
    Re -.2 or -.3. My unit does not have any noise problems discussed, IMO
    it has more dynamic range than my Proteus 1/XR
    
    Torbjorn
    
    
    

	Sounds like they did a good job on the unit. The big concern I have is
that it seems like you are saying that there are ONLY 4 OUTPUTS? Makes it  
rather useless for any serious studio recording, don't you think? I guess you
could separate the kick on one channel, the snare on another, and put everything
else into a stereo mix. A couple of more outputs would have been real nice.

-Andre

I sympathize, Andre, but I'm attracted to this thing because it won't make me
have to buy another mixer!  I don't know if the the processed samples would
reduce the need for lots of outputs for state-of-the-art pop, but I don't make
that kind of music, anyway.

	Eirikur

    Well, luckily Sheldon at The Music Depot took my D4 back...aparently
    Alesis wants to take a long hard look at it.  But I got the good end of
    the deal...Sheldon traded it for a Gibraltar double bass pedal, a
    Gibraltar hi hat stand, and a 16" paper thin Zildjian.
    
    I'm glad everyone else is having good luck with their D4--I wouldn't
    want my situation to be the norm.
    
    By the way, if I ever go electronic (read: if I ever have any more
    money) I'll do it with K.A.T. and an R-8M, perhaps a Yamaha tone module
    for other effects.

  Hi guys, I just got my D4 a couple weeks ago and I've been having a blast!
  (paid $325 plus shipping - Sweetwater Sound)

  First though, to earlier reply(s) - I too have noticed awful noise from the
  headphone output - but I attribute that to a really cheap headphone preamp.
  I haven't noticed it yet thru the main outs into my mixer - but I haven't
  tried 'soloing' it out yet for a good listen either.

  I mainly bought the D4 because I wanted to play around with triggering, and
  I just found how easy and fun it can be...!

  All I needed to buy was a pfiezo-electric transducer (from radio-shack,
  part # 273-073) and 1/4" phono plug for each trigger - ~$3.00 total each.
  I simply wired the transducer to the phone plug, taped the transducer to
  the bottom of the plastic lid of a coffee can, and inserted the plug into
  one of the D4 trigger inputs - and voila!  It worked like a charm, I didn't
  even have to muck with the sensitivity (gain, decay, etc) parameters.

  Obviously this wouldn't suit the needs of a real drummer, and it's not as
  sturdy/reliable as real pads, but it sure was simple, fun, and cheap.  Many
  possibilities.  Instead of tape I could use epoxy or a glue gun or something,
  but for temporary use this works great.  Since then I've made more out
  of different sized magarine containers, coffee cans and tuna cans, just
  about anything will work!

  I also taped a transducer to a piano-sustain type foot pedal, so that 
  when the pedal is depressed it strikes the transducer, even that worked fine,
  so now I have a bass pedal.  And I'm using another normal footswitch for
  hi-hat control.  (In case it hasn't been documented - you get one sound
  by hitting the hi-hat trigger with the pedal 'open', and another sound by
  hitting the trigger with the pedal 'closed', and just steping on the pedal
  itself triggers a 3rd sound.  These are meant to obviously simulate open,
  closed, and closing hi-hat sounds respectively, but they can be any sounds
  you choose.

  Not to mention the fact that the triggers also sends the corresponding note
  #s out MIDI, so you could trigger other drum sources, or any sound at all,
  like special FX from a sampler.  (tape a transducer to the back of your
  front door, so that when somebody knocks, they get a real suprise!)  

  I'm more than happy with my D4 right now.

-Tom