Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Whuzza SY22?  FM version of 55 (ie, FM, but no PCM)?

+b

    
    The SY22 is a vector/wavetable synth of some sort...in the vein of the
    Prophet VS.  So is the Korg WS, which was also shown at NAMM, but a lot
    more $$$$....about 2.5K, to be exact.  
    
    Lotsa USENET folks wondering how much the Y-folks picked up from the
    Sequential technology, especially at such a low price tag.
    
    						Brian

    
    
    I heard one of these things last week and was very impressed by the
    sounds. In these days of everything having sampled pianos as a starting
    point and then 14 different versions of a slap-bass, it was quite nice
    to hear a nice lush syntho for a change. If I had any money I would buy
    one.
    					Paul.

I stopped into LaSalle's to see the SY22 but it hasn't come in yet.  The
salesman said it hadn't been released, so I mentioned how folks on the west
coast have bought them already (based on USENET reports).  Guess Yamaha is
shipping by covered wagon.   They did have the brochure which answers the
question:

If this is a $1100 synth, why are other "vector" machines  like the Prophet VS,
Korg WS and Waldorf sold at such high prices?

Answer: the synth the SY22 resembles most is the Kawai K1!!!  Read on...

1. Voice Structure

There is a wavetable of 384 "preset waveforms", of which 128 are samples
(Yamaha AWM style) and 256 are FM.  You can have either two or four "elements"
in a sound, an AB configuration or ABCD.  A and C are always AWM, B and D
always FM.  You can edit "complex" (number of stages not mentioned) envelopes
on each element, plus a global attack/release element on the entire sound.

The vector controller is a joystick.  It can be used in real time, or
"recorded" which allows "dynamic" vector control (i.e. it is triggered by
keystrokes).  Two element sounds only respond to the joystick vertical axis,
four element sounds to both axes.  The controller can be mapped to level (i.e.
fade from one element to another) or pitch (i.e. detune A sharp while B goes
flat, etc.).  Once recorded, joystick motion can be edited.  You cannot have
pitch and level under vector contol simultaneously except where you have one
recorded and vary the other manually while playing.

When editing, in addition to full control, there are preset envelopes and
vectors you can use for quick patch construction.  Also a patch randomizer
which picks elements and vectors randomly for you.  Remember, with 128 AWM and
256 FM, there are 32K 2 element combinations alone.  NO mention of filters of
any sort.

There is NO mention in the brochure of mapping velocity or aftertouch to
vectors.  Interesting feature: when panning voices, *each* element in a sound
can be panned independently.

2.  Drums

One of the 128 AWM waves is a multisampled drum kit, with 61 sounds.  Three
basses, five snares, acoustic and electric toms, triangle (!!), two record
scratches.  One of the factory presets is a "rap perc" patch.

3.  FX

Sixteen effects available, NO mention of any programmability of them.  A
selection of reverbs, three delays, doubling, ping-ponging, two delay plus
reverbs, distorion plus reverb.

4.  Patch Memory

This is vague.  They mention 64 factory presets, 64 user locations and 16 multi
locations.  On the last page of the prochure they list the 64 presets and 16
multis, of which the last is used for the demo sequence.  I don't know if this
means there are 16 *preset* multis and 16 user multis or not.  The unit is
8-part multitimbral, but no mention is made of voices.  I'd *guess* 16/8 based
on whether you use 2 or 4 element sounds.  NO mention made of patch mapping.

5.  General

It uses a wall bug!!!!  Second surprise is no breath control jack.  Stereo and
mono outs, phone out, MIDI I/O/T, sustain and volume pedals, card slot for 32K
and 64K memories.  Sys-ex bulk dumps via MIDI, etc.  Pitch/mod wheels.  Two
7-segment LEDs for program numbers, 2 X 16 LCD for alphanumerics.  Velocity and
(channel) aftertouch keyboard, 61 keys.  It offers "overlapping voice
selection" like Ensoniq synths, that is, when changing patches any sustained
notes hold the old sound until released.

6.  Price

La Salle said that if the $1095 list holds, they will sell them for about $900.

    							
								Brian

    For the benefit of the drooling hordes awaiting this new board from
    the Y-people:  Despite these being sold on the left coast since the
    beginning of May, shipments to MA dealers won't go out until the first
    of June.  

    
    I bought a SY22 last week. It's a really nice machine. to answer some
    of the questions in *.4 :
    
    Price : In Holland it goes for 2800 guilders, which is around $1200.
    		Mine was 1800 guilders ($800) for a demo version (Allright
    		with me!)
    
    Filters : I haven't found any filters off yet, but as of me, I don't
    		mind. Basically everything can be set. If you've got a 
    		configuration with 4 elements, of all 4 you can choose
    		between about 7 different envelopes, 8 different decay
    		styles etc. etc. etc. Then there also is a general one.
    		Also Pan can be set for each instrument to get some nice
    		stereo effects (this is mentioned before).
    
    Aftertouch : Is programmable but I think not mappable to vectors.
    
    Drum kit : You mentioned a triangel ... There two! An open one and a
    		colsed one!
    
    FX : 16 available, programmable is the depth of each, among others,
    		reverb room, reverb hall, reverb chamber; you can really
    		make anything sound like played in the largest theatre.
    
    Patch memory : 64 preset, 64 internal (programmable), 16 multi preset
    		and 16 multi internal. You define a voice per channel,(max
    		8). You can change any sound, as long as you take pre-set
    		sounds. I haven't been able to have pro-24 change from
    		let's say preset 18 to internal 35. Maybe it can be done,
    		but I don't know how yet. The number of elements per sound
    		seems to me indepentent of the max number of voices.
    		Also there is an option to insert ROM memory cards for
    		additional samples, however, as long as it's used (maybe
    		deep down in one of the internal voices, the card should 
    		stay in.
    
    Overlapping : sustained notes when changing voices hold the original
    		voice untill released. The FX do change though. 
    
    I quite like it, nice toy
    
    
    		Bernd.
    

    Well, it finally arrived in Worcester.  Went down to the K-word-place
    and spent a half hour on it.
    
    First impression--WOW!!!  The vector feature really delivers in some
    very nice patches which shift in timbre quite nicely.  Of course they
    also have some overdone patches ala "Digital Native Dance" which are
    probably useless (why do they put these things in ROM?).  Rumors that
    it can't do sample-playback type sounds are false, it has a nice (not
    incredible, but nice) piano, strings, etc.  
    
    The thing is plastic and feels chintzy.  The wheels didn't impress me,
    and as KEYBOARD noticed, aftertouch response is kind of, eh, sudden. 
    Hard to modulate.  I used the joystick mostly to "disassemble" the
    patches to see what they were built out of.  Of course, most used 4
    "elements" which gives 8 notes max.  Some used only two, for 16 notes
    max.  A few used two samples, so four elements had to be used, since
    they are always set in sample/FM pairs.  The unused FM elements have
    their volumes set to zero, but I assume still take up voices.  Ugh.
    
    Programming seems easy enough but time consuming due to the small
    display.  However, the 16 patch select buttons double as control keys
    so at least you don't have to wander through menus.  Editing is on
    three levels: the elements, then the vector, then the total patch. 
    Effects are added at the total patch level, but when multis are used,
    the FX setting is ignored in favor of the multi's FX setting.  You can
    only pick the algorithm and depth for the FX, BTW, there is no access
    to parameters.  The FM programming is quasi-preset.  You get 256 preset
    programs on which you can modify a whopping two params.  Heavy duty FM
    gurus will be underimpressed.
    
    MIDI dumps of all memory (patches and multis) or individual patches are
    possible.  Dumping of individual multis appears to be not possible. 
    Typical decent MIDI implementation, like most Y-word synths.
    
    As far as a rack version, it's looking less likely...Yamaha has just
    dropped the list on the TG55 rack unit to $800 (thus the $560 Sam Ash
    prices), so that a "TG22" would have to list at about $600 to make
    sense.  Plus, as the sales guy pointed out, what do you do with a
    joystick on a rack unit (notice that the D50 and K1 both lost the
    sticks when racked).
    
    I'm not too interested in having another board lying about, but this
    thing has interesting potential for some very expressive timbres.  Even
    if it doesn't have filters.  Here's hoping that this box and the Korg
    WS are successful enough so that some more vector boxes hit the streets
    soon.
    
    							Brian

    Hello, Germany is calling...
    
    Has anyone experience with the MIDI-Program CREATOR (C-LAB) on an
    ST and the SY22.
    I want to buy a SY22 for Chrismas and need some Info's about
    this connection.
    
    Markus_patient_waiting_for_Chrismas
     

    I honestly don't know what manufacturers are thinking sometimes. 
    Around the first of June, an Ensoniq rep assured me and other clinic
    attendess that no rackmount Ensoniq synths were in the offing, then the
    first week of August, the SQ-R was in the stores.  Now we have Yamaha,
    who swore to me on the phone last month that no SY22 rack unit would be
    made.  Welcome to the TG33, the rack-mount of the SY22.
    
    The TG33 may not truly be a rackmount, it looks like a table-top module
    to me, but Yamaha says it's rack-mountable, so sue me.  It looks like
    an SY22 sans keyboard, much the way the Kawai K1m resembled the K1. 
    
    The Yamaha blurb talks about 32 note polyphony using 64 elements, so it
    seems to have double the note capability of the 22, but then they
    mention "196 voices of which 16 can be used at one time"...I have no
    idea what they mean here.  
    
    No price given, but claimed to "extremely inexpensive", so with TG55s
    listing at $800 and selling in NYC just under $600, this may be in the
    $450 street price range.  
    
    						Brian

    Sales folks don't talk to engineering.  And, nobody talks to Marketing.
    
    Steve

    
    Sam Ash price for the TG33 is $479 as of today.  Apparently list is
    about $600.
    
    						Brian

I just re-read the Keyboard review of the SY22, it was not very positive about
the sound.  Apparently most of the samples are not multi-sampled, and the FM
implementation is simplistic.  Too bad, the TG-33 is neat-looking.

	Eirikur

I spoke to a local Yamaha shop about the TG33; he seemed to think they wouldn't
hit NH for a while. His explanation of the guts was that it was in essence two
SY22s, thus the "TG33" moniker. Any more info on the 22's sounds? I for one
haven't been impressed enough with Keyboard reviews to not seek a second opinion
before nixing what sounds like such a sweet box.

    
    Re: .13
    
    Have you heard the 22 yet?  I read the reviews and saw all the nits
    about cheap sound.  I would tend to disagree.  It's not masquerading as
    a sample player.  In fact, a lot of the boards people talk about as
    having "sampled" sound like the D-50, K-1, ESQ-1, etc. don't sound much
    like sample players to me, the sampled sounds are just too rough.
    
    Noone complained about the D-50 lacking multisamples at $2000 but then
    Keyboard takes the SY22 to task for the same at $1000....gimme a break.
    
    Also, EM and Keyboard seemed to disagree on the joystick.  Keyboard said
    it did *not* send via MIDI, EM says it uses controllers 16 and 17 (and
    the synth receives the same, letting you use remapping to drive the
    vector function from other controllers...nice).  So who's right?  Was
    EM's reviewer one toke over the line or what?
    
    The vector synthesis feature lets you get some very nice *synthetic*
    sounds.  The samples seemed adequate to me for non-critical use in
    imitative sound, i.e. it's not the best piano I ever heard, but it's
    still pretty good and usable in many contexts.  I'm real interested in
    picking one up, but mainly for the synthetic possibilities.  I already
    own a sample player, thank you.
    
    I would think that if you find boxes like the D-110 and K1 to have
    suitable fidelity, the SY22/TG33 would be acceptable.  Go listen to
    one!!
    
    BTW, I've seen a mail-order price for $415 already, which is very close
    to current D-110 and K-1r pricing.  
    
    							Brian

    Keyboard was taken to task in the latest issue for their mistake
    regarding the joystick...
    
    Edd

    I got a second try at a TG33 over the vacation and verified this
    thing not only can really generate 32 voices, but this may be the new
    "bank-for-the-buck" champ, taking the crown from the MT32.
    
    Yes, you can rack it, and the rack ears are included (yeah!) but the
    options are either flat or tilted, mostly submerged in the rack or
    sticking way out (forget closing the cover, bad news on the road
    although OK in a studio).  It'll eat two or three spaces. 
    
    It really is like two SY22s in a module.  Polyphony is 32 voices using
    two elements or 16 voices using four (and, in multitimbral mode, you
    get somewhere in between, depending on the mix of patches).  Speaking
    of multis, they are 16-way now (yep, this can hog an entire MIDI network
    all by itself).   Parts are assigned to one of two groups.  Each group
    has its own send to the FX unit, so you can have some parts wet and
    others dry, etc. (this is pretty cool in a unit at this price point). 
    There are two pairs of stereo outs.  You can assign groups to outs
    however you like (both groups to #1, both to #2, group 1 to #1 and 2 to
    #2, group 1 to #2 and 2 to #1) except that out #2 can't use FX.  Both
    stereo pairs are hooked up so that using only the left jack gives you a
    mono mix.
    
    I doubt pros will drool over this, after all it's plastic, only
    marginally rack-mountable and uses a wall bug.  For amateurs and
    cheapskates this will be the new power toy.  At $595 list, it's already
    $100 cheaper than the MT32 was in 1988.  And you can program it without
    a computer.
    
    							Brian

    A Few questions on the SY22/TG33;
    
    Has anyone been able to get a better piano sound? (This is only sound in
    there I dislike, the others sounds better than the D-series to my ears)
    
    Are there any editor/librarians available?
    
    Sound cards?
    
    Cheapest price I've seen in the UK is 499 pounds.  Anyone seen any
    better?
    
    
    matty

>    Has anyone been able to get a better piano sound? (This is only sound in
>    there I dislike, the others sounds better than the D-series to my ears)
    
    There's not a lot you can do since the only options you have are
    playing with envelopes and using vectors, there is no filtering
    available. As far as using vectors, you may be able to find a better FM
    sound to mix with the piano sample.
    
>    Are there any editor/librarians available?
    
    I haven't seen any yet, but I'm sure they are on the way.  You could
    use one of the generic programs like X-Or or Gen Edit if you were
    willing to write your own template based on the MIDI data in the Yamaha
    manuals.  Of course you can then use the same programs with any other
    synths you might acquire.
    
>    Sound cards?
    
    Only RAMs in the US so far, no ROMs with new patches yet.
    
    						
    							Brian

Hi there !

I've seen ad's for SY22 editors, but none of the larger SW houses is offering
them yet. 

	Richard

    How does the SY22 compare to the D10, or D20?  I've seen the specs in
    the Keyboard Buyer's Guide.  The SY22 has half the polyphony, but I
    prefer the sounds.  Would 300+ waveforms be enough to keep me, a novice
    synthesist, happy for a year or so?  Or would I find myself limited
    after a couple of months?
    
    matty

    > SY22 has half the polyphony...
    
    ...carefull when making comparisons to Roland gear. They seem to use
    an "optimistic" approach to polyphony figures.
    
    Edd

On polyphony, .21 has an *excellent* point, which applies to all gear, really.
Check out the specs real well to see how many "voices" are used to actually
generate each "sound." We users often assume, all too naively, that what they
say is what we get; if a synth layers the output of four LFOs to get each sound,
for instance, cut their polyphony by four.

The larger difference which I believe you'll want to look at is the fundamental
difference in voice architecture between the D-xx and SY-xx synths. The Roland
line is their "L/A" synthesis, while the Yamaha doodads are vector synthesis, a
whole different breed of cat. If you like the voices better, you'll probably
like the ones *you* can program better as well, IMHO. The only truly correct
decision is to get one of each! No, seriously, think long and hard, and you'll
be able to endure the inevitable second-guessing at least a *little* better. If
you don't think you understand the voice production methods, study them until
you feel comfortable making a choice.

Good luck.

Cheers,
	Bob

    The SY22 has essentially the same polyphony as a D-10/20.
    
    The Rolands have 32 "partials" which you can use one, two, three or
    four per patch.  Yamaha has 32 "elements" which use two or four per
    patch.  So Roland only comes out ahead if you use lots of one partial
    sounds (I don't like most of them).
    
    The Yamaha drums are drawn from the 32 elements, the Roland drum sounds are
    totally separate and a drum pattern sequencer is included.  
    
    The Yamaha effects unit is more flexible, it can do more than just
    reverb.
    
    Roland has filters for square and pulse waveforms, Yamaha does not;
    this makes Roland better for analog-style sounds.  Roland cannot use
    filters with sampled partials, however, which makes it equal to the
    Yamaha.  Yamaha's vector synthesis allows a whole new class of sounds
    that Roland cannot create, but Yamaha can imitate most of the Roland
    sounds.
    
    The Yamaha samples are superior to the Roland (to my ears).  Yamaha has
    aftertouch.  Yamaha uses an external AC adapter (wall bug), Roland has
    an internal power supply. 
    
    Of course, the SY22 has no sequencer while the D20 does, but the D20
    sequencer is not very flexible.  
    
    The biggest plus going for Roland is the price will probably always be
    less, as it's an older instrument, so the current street price of a
    D-10 in the US is $50-100 less and used pieces are found easily at
    further savings.
    
    							Brian

    I think I'm going to go for the Yammy.  I can get one of them for 500
    pounds, while the D10 is around 600 pounds.  I prefer the sounds, the
    looks and I love the Vector joystick idea on the Yammy.  I also think
    the Yammy will be easier to program.
    
    
    matty

Re .24:

When you get your new baby, plop in a reply after you've had it a while. I still
harbor a barely-repressed lust for the TG33, and I'd love to see a considered
opinion based on enough use to expose the more subtle loves and hates which are
missed by "first impressions" and "spec snob" reviews.

Cheers,
	Bob

    Question; The SY22 has 1 instrument where you a seperate percussion
    sounds assigned to each key, ie. 69 drum sounds.
    
    Can you copy this in a user definable `patch' and edit and store the
    sounds?
    
    
    matty

    Yes and no.
    
    You can modify the entire set of drum sounds, but not each sound
    individually.  
    
    						Brian

    That sounds very off-putting.  What's the soloution?  It's important
    that I have hundreds of rhythm sounds.
    
    
    matty

    I'VE JUST BOUGHT ONE TG33, AND LIKE SOME HELP.
    
    It is suppossed that with Control Change 32 and the value of 37, you
    can change yout preset bank into P2, as it comes in the page ADD3 of
    the manual. I do not know what is going on, but it does not work, even
    with other values neither with Control Change 0.
    
    By the way. Anyone knows what LSB and MSB bank selector means?
    
    Thanks.
    

    Re: .29
    
    What you wrote isn't too clear, but LSB and MSB are usually least
    significant byte and most significant byte, i.e. the data is
    transferred in two pieces.
    
    Perhaps if you could explain what you are trying to accomplish.  When
    you say "control change" are you talking MIDI continuous contollers or
    are you talking a *program* change?
    
    							Brian

    Yes, Control Change, no Program change.
    
    In the MIDI implementation chart of TG33 manual you can see different
    control changes that can de sent from the computer, in order of
    changing some parameters, or instance, control change #7 modify the
    volume of the selected instrument in the selected midi channel, between
    0 - 127 values. Other control changes modify other parameters, such as
    panpot (10), expresion (11), breath (6), vector control (16-17), 
    soustain (64), etc..., and
    with control change 32 you can change the bank (P1 or P2 or Internal),
    but it does not work in my system.
    
    
    Control changes are very usefull. I use MUSIC-X software in my AMIGA
    computer to drive my MIDI system (Kawai, Rland and Yamaha), and
    inserting these control changes between notes you can add a nice
    expresion to your compositions, modifying the pan or volume or whatever
    in real time during play.
    
    If anyone else is interested, I can eplain in details all kinds of
    control changes, their range and so on.
    
    Isidro. 
    
    
    

    Carried on from the SH-101 note;
    
    The TG33 has no filters, therefore does this mean it is not possible to
    create `sweeping' sounds?  Or are there other ways of doing this?
    
    
    matty

    It's possible to emulate a sort of "sweeping" sound by diddling the 
    envelope of an FM *modulator*. It's no substitute for a filter but
    it works in a pinch. I was able to get a patch that didn't sound unlike
    the manic synth sweep in Edgar Winter's "Frankenstein" on my DX. I've
    found it best to just leave the unit in EDIT mode and move the
    slider(s) in real time....
    
    Edd

    Re: .33
    
    The FM in the TG33 is not sophisicated enough to allow modulation as
    Edd described.  
    
    What I would look for is a pair of FM presets and a pair of samples
    that are similar to each other but have different degrees of
    brightness, and then make a vector which rapidly moves between them. 
    Probably won't sound too "analog" but I suspect it's about as close as
    you'll be able to get.
    
    							Brian