Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Matty,
    
    You don't mention having listened to an Ensonique VFX. There are two
    versions - the VFX (no sequencer and I think no percussion), and the
    VFX-D which does have a sequencer and more wave forms (as I recall the
    wave forms or whatever they call them are all percussion).
    
    This is a pretty amazing machine with lots of possibilities. It has
    built in effects (as does the D50), but is multi-timbral and has
    more notes that you can play at the same time (I think it has 21 -
    vs. the D50 that has 16). Anyway, the multi-timbral aspect will really
    only be of use if you are using a seqencer that can access more than
    one sound at the same time. Most keyboards you can split so that
    when you are playing live, you can get one sound on the left half
    and a different sound on the right half. On some you can have multiple
    split points. How you intend to use the synth may have a lot to do with
    how many bells and whistles it nees to have.
    
    You should check out the VFX though, as it really sounds great!
    I own D50, and really like it, but if I were new in the market for
    something, I'd also give good listen to the VFX if you like that
    full kind of sound that you get from a D50. There are other synths
    that Roland has recently come out with that may be worthy of
    consideration as well - including the U-20 (I think that's a new one),
    and the D-70. Korg makes some good ones to. I'd shop around a little
    more before you decide!
    
    I hope this helps!
    
    Bill

    OK next question;
    
    The D20 sequencer can do a rhythm track of 500 measures.
    
    What is 500 measures?
    
    How long (mins:secs) is 500 measures 4/4 130 BPM?
    
    Is 16,000 note capacity high or low for a sequencer?
    
    What makes a seqencer powerful?
    
    
    matty
    
    (thanks Brian for your memo's.  I finally understand the faults of the
    D50, what multimbrality is and you have set me wanting a D20)

    
    Simple math:
    
    500 measures X 4 beats per measure / 130 beats per minute
    
    (500 X 4)/ 130 = 15.4 minutes
    
    						Brian

    So a measure is a bar?
    
    How do you get those acid `squelchy noises'?
    
    
    matty

    
    What's a "squelchy" noise?
    
    						Brian

    The best way I can describe the Acid noise is a `squelch'.  The wierd
    thing is that the noise changes through the sound and each time a key
    is hit.  It's driving me mad trying to describe this.  You'd have to
    hear an acid house record.
    
    Can anyone out there explain properly?
    
    
    matty

    
    Sounds like an analog synth using a sample and hold.  I've heard a few
    house records which made *heavy* use of analog synths.  This sort of
    sound is not possible on most digital synths, Roland D-series in
    particular.
    
    

    So how much do these things cost?, can you still get them?, what other
    advantages do they have?, how come LA synths can't do those sounds.
    
    
    matty_the_living_questionare!

    
    Just because Roland D-series machines can't do it doesn't mean it can't
    be done with modern machines.  Try an ESQ-1 with the NOISE waveform
    really slow, or any Oberheim (like the Xpander, a machine near and dear
    to my heart).
    
    Question: are you sure that the "squelch" sound is a sample/hold and
    not a filter sweep?
    
    	-Bill

    I've not seen the ESQ-1.  I'm not sure if they sell it over here, and
    it's discontinued anyway, so I'm not sure I could get one used.
    
    As for the question: Que?  Non comprendez!
    
    
    matty

    
    An example of a filter sweep would be a guitar playing through a
    wah-wah.  yeah, it's not a synth, but it's a filter sweep, i.e. the
    tone or timbre is changing over the duration of the note.  Lotsa synth
    bass parts done in the 70s used filter sweeping as part of the sound.
    
    							Brian

    Sounds like it's one of them.  Can a D20 do that?
    
    
    matty

    A D20 can do that, and an ESQ1 can too. By the way, ESQ1s are available
    via the free ads in Music Technology for around 500 pounds.
    
    Richard.

    How risky is it buying a 2nd hand keyboard?  What % are clean?  What do
    you forfeit when buying used?
    
    matty

	You never know what te previous owner has done to them. For example,
	one of the keys broke on my ESQ-1 (there is an internal damper that
	limits the up/down travel - this is what broke) & this key ended up
	sticking up about 1 inch higher than the rest of the keys until I
	could improvise a replacement damper - mines metal with rubber pads,
	theirs was plastic with rubber pads. It was a challenge to get into
	but fortunately, the keyboard had other adjustments on each key to
	reset the travel for note on/off. I know the ESQ-1's previous owner
	and he took excellent care of it. Somethings just wear out or break
	after a while. I wouldn't buy a beat up keyboard or rack unit. If
	it looks well cared for, then you probably will have better luck
	with it.

								Jens

    If I wanted to amplify a keyboard, just for home use, with stereo
    quality sounds what would I need?
    
    I think I just want some some of amp that I can plug the keyboard into,
    them from the amp into my CD line in on my Hi-Fi.  I have already
    discovered that the input needs to amplified in order to be able to
    hear what going on.
    
    Would I have to get a Keyboard amp, like a Roland Cube?  Is there a
    Rack Mountable option?
    
    I want to keep this as cheap as possible.  Under 100 pounds if
    possible.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    
    matty

    Notes> DIRECTORY/KEYWORD=AMPLIFIER yielded the following wealth of
           information.
    
    Edd
    
   251  DYO780::SCHAFER      19-FEB-1986    28  Recommendation: Amplifier for Synth Gear
   275    STAR::MALIK        18-MAR-1986     4  Amp suggestions?
   356    STAR::MALIK        13-MAY-1986    11  Looking for SMALL Amp/Speakers for Home Studio
   828  FDCV01::ARVIDSON      2-JUN-1987    27  Connecting Pro Synth Equipment to Home Stereo
   875     HUB::OPERATOR     17-JUL-1987    15  Roland Juno Sounds Thin w/ Gorilla Amp
  1120  COGVAX::LABAK         4-JAN-1988    13  Recommendation - Powered Keyboard Monitor for Gigs
  1676  IMGAWN::BERDAT       16-SEP-1988     6  TOA Keyboard Amps
  1684  FGVAXR::LAING        22-SEP-1988     6  AB Power Amps?
  1797  FGVAXX::LAING         6-DEC-1988     1  Peavey DECA 528 Power Amp?
  1872  FGVAXL::LAING        23-JAN-1989     6  Power Amp: "Pro" vs. "Home"
  1922  FGVAXY::LAING        21-FEB-1989     5  Rackmount (1 Space) Power Amplifiers
  2039   CURIE::DECARTERET    6-JUL-1989     9  Peavey KB300 Amp - Compression Light?
  2092  COGVAX::LABAK        21-AUG-1989     8  RAMSA Sound Equipment?
  2093   PAVAX::SPRIGGS      22-AUG-1989     4  Help - Music Man Guitar Amp Buzzing
  2096   NRPUR::DEATON       23-AUG-1989    19  Micro PA Systems?
  2141   HAMER::COCCOLI      18-OCT-1989    29  What Type of PA Gear Do You Use?
  2184  COGVAX::LABAK        28-NOV-1989    12  Power Amps - Digital or Analog?

While I'm sure the info keyed to "AMPLIFIER" is useful to the original question,
I don't think its slant is guaranteed to be the right one. Matty, if I hear you
correctly, you're not looking for top-of-the-line-giggable-massive-power
amplifiers, but rather the ability to get decent sound out of a synth with no
onboard speakers or amplifier. If that's the case, you're on the right track.

Being budget-conscious myself, I started with the "CD-in" approach, then
progressed to a set of powered speakers. If you can spring for them, there are
several high-quality powered speaker setups available. If you have speakers and
are really are looking for just amplification of the signal, the keyworded notes
may indeed be what you're looking for; however, there's nothing wrong with using
your stereo system's amplifier, or purchasing a second one for dedicated use
with your synth. It really all depends on your needs/wants and your available
cash. Good luck, anyhoo.

Cheers,
	Bob

    > There's nothing wrong with using your stereo system's amp...
    
    ...until the first time he whacks it with a transient and sends his
    amp and/or speakers to audio heaven.
    
    While there's nothing inherently *wrong* with using your stereo 
    for synth amplification, bear in mind that it wasn't designed for
    this type of use. I personally have been able to trip the protection
    circuit regularly on my Phillips 7871 with nothing more than a bass
    drum kick. Synths and drum machines will put out levels and dynamics
    far beyond whatever I suspect Matt has for stereo gear is capable
    of handling reliably.
    
    Forewarned is forearmed...
    
    Edd

Re: .19

I don't want to distract from the original query, but this might be useful to
explore just a tad.

I'm aware of the "unusual" aspects of synth-generated signals with regard to
transients, but I've been given to understand that virtually all modern gear,
including the amps for stereo systems, was capable of handling such spikes.
Is your Phillips amp of relatively recent vintage? Is this assessment correct or
not? I confess that I'm not a true "bithead," so I've got to take *someone*
else's opinion on such matters. I haven't had any problems myself, so up to now
I was comfortable with the info I'd been given. If an update is warranted,
though, I'm more than willing to be enlightened- as, I'm sure, will be the noter
looking for the amp!

Bob

    I want the amp for 2 things;
    
    1.  To be able to hear what I'm playing (while in my bedroom) without
        having to use headphones.
    
    2.  I already have a guitar, a microphone and a 4 to 2 mixer.  I plan
    to mix guitar, vocals and keyboard.  I already have the ability to do
    the first 2.  I need some sort of amplification to raise the volume of
    the keyboard in order to be able to give me enough signal to record on
    my Hi-Fi.  I already do this with my portable PSS keyboard, but that
    has it's own internal amp.
    
    matty 

Sumpin' sounds weird dept:

You don't have enough signal to record? From your keyboard's line outs?
That sounds kinda odd- obviously you need some amplification to drive speakers,
but unless you're actually trying to *mike* your keyboard's output (I can't
believe it!), you should be able to hook your keyboard's outputs direct to your
mixer's inputs. If they're mike inputs, you might even need a trim pot to cut
*down* the signal. All of the above, of course, assumes I didn't just drop a bit
somewhere...

Cheers,
	Bob

  
  I've managed to get very nice sound from a flea-market SONY receiver
  ($10 because the on off switch was stuck on) and Radio Shack
  Minimus 7 speakers (on sale they go for $60). People in the AUDIO 
  conference recommeded the Minimus 7s - I'm very impressed.
  
  This setup sounds good and, if I kill the receiver I'm only out $10.
  So far the speakers seem tough enough.
  
  Dave
  

    	I've been using an old 150 watt/channel Kenwood receiver with a
    pair of AR-93s for several years with no ill effects...  (I do have a
    mixer in front of the receiver, I don't know how high the levels would
    be without it???).  The only think to be a little careful of is to turn
    your amp off before hitting the switch on the old power strip that
    powers everything else.  I get a massive thump from the various modules
    and computers as they power down if I forget to kill the amp first.
    
    Brian
    

    RE Bob,
    
    If I plug my Mic direct into the DC In socket, the output from the
    Hi-Fi's speakers is so low it is almost in-audiable.  I *assume* that
    any keyboard (not including consumer ones) will need amplification,
    just like the Mic.
    
    At present I use my consumer keyboard, which has speakers and therefore
    it's own little amplifier (3W I think).  This is easily loud enough for
    what I want.
    
    So I think I need some sort of amplification box that has stereo in's
    and out's.  It doesn't have to be over 10W, but it does need to be as
    cheap as possible.  A bonus would be that I could put my Mic through it
    as well.  Maybe I'd need 2, one for each.
    
    I've seen something in the Roland catalogue that might suit.  It's a
    little white box that sits neatly under an Atari monitor.  It has two
    little speakers.  I reckon it might give off enough amplification to
    allow me to record, using my Hi-Fi.
    
    Am I just complicating things?  Would a simple Hi-Fi Amp Separate do?
    
    Confused.
    
    
    matty

    It sounds like you're doing something wrong.
    
    The little amp in your consumer synth is probably driving just the
    built-in speakers, and not affecting any line-out signals.
    
    Is there a level switch on the back of your synth? My Roland has one.
    I just set it at MAX and control everything else from the front panel.
    
    Edd

Re .25:

One or both of us truly *is* dreadfully confused, if what you say is what you
mean. (Never mind that, I know I am.)

The "DC In" jack of anything is for *power* input, not signal to be amplified.
Typically on an audio amp of any kind this is called a "line in," or possible
"mic." If you're really doing this and not blowing anything up, you must live
right! It sounds more like you're plugging a microphone into a "line in" jack.

If you plug a mic into a line in, it's quite possible that you won't hear much,
as a microphone typically outputs very little voltage- a true bithead could
tell you how much, I can't. A "line-level" signal is substantially higher
voltage- there are differing standards for "pro" and "consumer" gear, but both
are higher than mic levels. If this is the case, I'm not too surprised, but you
should be able to plug in your keyboard without amplification. Typically
instruments do have a "preamp" stage which is the reason that they have a
"hotter" signal than mikes. (If all this is too painfully simplistic for some
hardware junky, feel free to correct the nits.)

Cheers,
	Bob

    The DC in threw me also, but I assumed it was British for CD in...;^)
    
    Edd

    I can sympathise with the problem here. I have a Yamaha HS-8 which I
    record on my Kenwood Hi Fi cassette decks. However, to get a decent
    recording level the master volume on the organ needs to be near max.
    
    I am not confused, or using the wrong output/input combination. The
    line out from the organ just is not at the correct level to drive the
    AUX input on the Hi Fi. (Both pieces of equipment are 3-4 years old.)

At last, a question in COMMUSIC that is right up my street :-)

Matty, having trodden a similar path myself, I don't think you really
have much of a problem. I've been building up my equipment on a 'cheap
and cheerful' basis for a number of years, and had the same problem as you.

My setup is as follows:

Instruments/mic ---> mixer ---> 4-track ---> Hi-fi amp ---> Speakers

I don't know if I run the risk of burning anything out, but I use the mixer
to set the levels for the four-track, and the output levels of the four-track
to make sure that the hi-fi amp doesn't get blasted.

Unfortunately I can't show you this at the moment (music room *still* not set
up - 18 months into the decorating and counting :-( ).

Give me a ring if you've got any questions.

Cheers,

    Derek.

    Sorry, I DID mean CD, not DC.  Maybe I've been talking to too many
    Australians! :-)
    
    Edd, I use the 2 x Aux Out on my PSS straight into the HiFi.  It must
    go through the amp because the volume control affects the output from
    the speakers HiFi.  The volume is sufficient that with the PSS on 3/4 I
    get the equivailent amount of volume as a pre-recorded commercial
    cassette.
    
    Maybe my question should be, is a SY22 (I'm going to get some cash for
    one in a couple of hours) going to give me enough volume to do the
    same, or do I need a little amp?  And if so, which sort?
    
    
    matty

Matty, I didn't know if you were asking Edd specifically, but what the hey, I'm
here at the moment-

The SY22 should produce plenty of signal without amplification. A good way to
doublecheck, though, is to look at the specs for your PSS and compare them to
those of the SY22. The description of the output jacks should include a nominal
voltage for the output, for example plus or minus 4 Volts. I think the SY22 is
classed as a "pro" keyboard (as opposed to "consumer"), and will have as hot a
signal as any you can find.

You can doublecheck the specs for the *input* jacks on your stereo, as well. If
all else fails, take your stereo down to a shop with a SY22! That should settle
it with some certainty fersure.

(It sure is nice to see all the input from other folks doin' it on the cheap!)

Cheers,
	Bob

    
    Matty,
    
    You don't need a *power* ampliier, you need a *line* amplifier. And
    since your mike also needs a microphone *pre*amplifier, the best
    solution is a cheap mixer that has both mic and line inputs, preferably
    with a pad on each channel so you can match the output levels of each
    one of your inputs.
    
    As for using your consumer hifi as a playback system, you can do it...
    but proceed with caution. Just like it's not designed to play all night
    long on 11, it's not meant for the hot signals from keyboards, drum
    machines and microphones. It doesn't have the hefty components of pro
    gear, it was made for playing back recorded music with limited dynamic
    range. Just the opposite of what you're feeding it.
    
    CdH
    

    I'm really surprised that anybody, much less two of you, have this
    problem. I've got at least 8 SGUs, and none of them exhibit this
    problem. Indeed, it's never even been something I was concerned
    enough with to even think about. I can't imagine the SY22 being
    any different from what I consider "normal".
    
    But... maybe the manufacturers of these consumer keyboards are
    trying to protect you from yourself? If indeed the signal is low,
    it may have been designed that way to keep the owners of consumer
    keyboards from frying their consumer stereos when they inevitably
    try what you're doing.
    
    One thing you may want to try is moving the inputs from "CD" to
    "line" (or "tape") in. The circuitry for the CD player may be 
    expecting a "hotter" signal.
    
    Edd

Oooh.  Just thought of something.  You don't like turning the volume up to 75%,
and mention the built-in speakers.  Maybe all you need is a dummy headphone
plug to cut out the speakers!  I'm serious.  A plain headphone plug from Radio
Shack will do this, right out of the blister-pack.

	Eirikur

    ...or just plug in some headphones!
    
    Edd

    Another vote for just using your home stereo.  I've been quite happy
    for years with a used 75wpchannel Marantz stereo amp.  BTW 0DB on a
    line level signal is .776 volts.  A mic puts out less than a tenth of
    that.  I suspect that Matty's "CD" input is looking for something
    hotter than line level.
    
    karl

    
    .775 volts = 0dB is a convention, not a spec or requirement, for
    sonsumer and/or semipro gear. Manufacturers may or may not decide to
    conform to the convention.
    
    CdH
    

    RE-2,  if the Mic produces about 1/10th the power needed (that a CD
    player would give), what do I need to amplify it by 10.
    
    matty

    
    A microphone preamplifier. Normally found in a mike mixer.
    
    CdH
    

    So what's the cost of one of them?  Cheapest.  And what should I look
    for?
    
    The mic sounds alright through my guitar amp!
    
    
    matty

           <<< Note 2261.41 by IGETIT::BROWNM "SpacebassmanBrown" >>>
>        The mic sounds alright through my guitar amp!
    
    That's 'cause mic output and guitar pickup output are about the same
    voltage levels.. so there's a preamp inside your guitar amp.
    
    karl

I've used a Radio Shack for quite a while, which not only provides me with
preamp for mic inputs, but also lets me mix them with line input from my synth,
guitar, and computer before going to my amplifier (previously, my "CD in"!).

I can't recall the model number, but mine is Radio Shack's "top of the line,"
and on sale it was $60. I think they're standard price on their lowest-priced
model is around $40. Mine has been quite satisfactory, but I have no idea if
the lower-priced models are significantly noisier.

Cheers,
	Bob

    
    
    Another vote for being extremely careful using your stereo equiptment
    to channel keyboard output from. I have a 50 watt rms Technics
    amplifier and two 100 watt Celestion Ditton speakers. The only channel 
    through the amp that passes signals from the E5 is TAPE in. 1/4 volume 
    is enough on a low piano type note or kick from the base drum to take 
    the speakers to their absolute max. Much more and it's expensive
    rupture time. Try passing the phono out from your keyboard into the 
    'TAPE'/'LINE' in on the amplifier. If you need pre-amp on the mic - or
    for any wierd reason need pre-amp on the keyboard, try plugging into
    the 'PHONO' ( record player ) input on the amplifier. This should help
    as most record players don't contain a pre-amplifier, and rely on a 
    pre-amp stage in the amplifier to boost the signal before it gets to
    power amp. As I think was mentioned before, go careful as you use your 
    home equipt. tho' - I reckon that a powered speaker ( like you see 
    electric guitars plugged into ) is a better option than a fried stereo.
    
    
    regards.
    			Nik.

    re: plugging into "phono"...
    
    And if it sounds wierd, blame it on RIAA equalization.
    
    Edd

         <<< Note 2261.44 by RUTILE::COX "Yes, I did this by choice" >>>
    > ....1/4 volume 
    >is enough on a low piano type note or kick from the base drum to take 
    >the speakers to their absolute max. 
    
    Okay.. you have a synth that doesn't adhere to the line level standards
    mentioned here in an earlier reply.  If you had a mixer with a 'pad',
    you could damp that signal somewhat.
    
    >If you need pre-amp on the mic - or
    >for any wierd reason need pre-amp on the keyboard, try plugging into
    >the 'PHONO' ( record player ) input on the amplifier. This should help
    >as most record players don't contain a pre-amplifier, and rely on a 
    >pre-amp stage in the amplifier to boost the signal before it gets to
    >power amp. 
    
    Bad advice.  In order to conserve on groove size, bass is SHRUNK by a
    predetermined amount when the master for a record is cut.  Then when
    the record is played thru that special pre-amp you mentioned, it
    imposes a corresponding bass BOOST to the signal.  This is called the
    RIAA Equalization Curve.  If you think you've got level and thumping
    problems now, just plug into that input and kiss your speakers goodbye.
    
    best. karl

    Trouble is, is that my `Hi-Fi' only has CD in sockets - nothing else
    whatsoever.  It's only a 180 pound MIDI 1 piece system, not Marantz
    separates!  (I wish!)
    
    BTW, what's a `pad'.  Do you mean a slide control, rheostat, variable
    resistor?  Maybe it's the American dialect that confuses me.
    
    
    
    matty

           <<< Note 2261.47 by IGETIT::BROWNM "SpacebassmanBrown" >>>
                             -< Confused again... >-

    >BTW, what's a `pad'.  Do you mean a slide control, rheostat, variable
    >resistor?  
    
    Yes.  Many mixers have a separate 'damping' control which will load
    down the incoming signal so that your 'real' volume slider/knob can be
    used througout its range.  I have a Yamaha mixer with two dual-purpose
    1/4" jacks; can be used for mic or line or anything inbetween.
    
    >Maybe it's the American dialect that confuses me.
    
    Wot ?  Doncher suss it ?
    
    karl

    
    It's also called a pre-fader. Like Karl says, it's used to match signal
    levels on each mix channel so that 0dB on the fader is approximately
    0dB on the meter on each channel.
    
    Rat Shack is Tandy in Europe, their cheap mixers are about as
    inexpensive a solution as you'll find for your needs. A small disco
    mixer would also work well in a four track setup.
    
    CdH
    

    It's a Tandy mixer that I have.  4 channels (6.3mm or phone) to 2 x
    6.3mm (L & R).  It only cost 23 pounds and as far as I see there is
    little loss of sound.  At present I do this;
    
    PSS680 (left)	PSS680 (right)		Guitar & Amp
        |			|			|
    	|			|		       | |
    	|			|		      |   |
    Tandy mixer ch1 (in)    mixer ch2 (in)          ch3   ch4 (both in)
    			|			|
    			|			|
    		Left channel out       Right Channel out
    			|                       |
    			|			|
    		CD in on HiFi (Left)   CD in on HiFi (Right)
    
    If I have all the `pads' (as you call 'em) on full, my keyboard on 3/4
    (about 2.5W) and my guitar down real low I get a nice balanced sound at
    about the volume of a normal tape.  Advantages are that I get to use
    the equaliser on the outgoing signal and yet there is little hiss when
    I record.  The PSS680's PCM drum sounds sound pretty good through the
    Hi-Fi too.
    
    Now I need something that I can put the mic through to amplify to
    around the volume of the others.  I can use a `Y' adaptor on the guitar
    amp's input socket if I like, but that limits the sounds I can have on
    the guitar, and the voice sounds stupid through a Wah Wah!
    
    
    matty

Y'know, I think you just proved what has been cited to me as a truism- you can
never have too many inputs!

You already have what you need, but just not enough of it- your mixer would
give plenty of output from a mike, *if* you had a spare input for it. What to
do...

(Didn't say I knew the answer, just the question...)

Cheers,
	Bob

    
    Why two channels for the guitar and amp? If your mixer has a mic
    preamp, can you set the PS680 to mono and use one input? Or use a
    single input for guitar? That will free up a channel.
    
    CdH
    

    I don't have any problems with the amounts of channels.  I just need
    one amp for the mic, and one for the guitar.  I only have one for the
    guitar.
    
    
    matty

    I've just re-read the whole of this topic.  I've learned a lot through
    this conference and the Music mags (Music Technology and Sound On
    Sound).
    
    I sorted out the amplification problem.  I bought a 20 PA amplifier
    from Tandy (Radio Shack) which is more than ideal for the keyboard. 
    Not only does it drive the CD `in' enough to produce a normal level
    signal, it blasts my ears off direct to speakers.
    
    I also bought a Radio Shack reverb unit (only 20 pounds).  My SH101
    sounds great through it!  It also has a Mic socket which I use to boost
    my Mic to CD in level.
    
    Anyway, the point of this note is to say thanks for all your help -
    looking back at this topic now it all makes sense ;-)
    
    I'll be leaving Dec in mid August so I'll be spending my redundancy
    money on some of the gear I've been dreaming about for the last couple
    of years.  The next few months will be very important to me in my
    choosing what to buy.  I'll try and keep my questions to the relevant
    topics.
    
    Here's what I'm planning on;
    
    TG33	-	No two ways about it, this is to be my main tone
    			generator - I just wish it had more drum sounds.)
    
    Keyboard Controller - I've not really decided on this yet.  The PC200
    			is cheap and functional, same as the Cheetah stuff,
    			but I could always spend more and get a full
    			multi-timbral job, such as a D10 or somesuch.  I want
    			value for money, but something with more drum sounds
    			and tones that aren't going to sound bad against the
    			TG33.  I might go for secondhand here.  I really
    			fancy a D50 but they seem to be for more secondhand
    			than new, so that's really out of my 400pound target.
    			I'll try and have a go on a DX7 or something.  Any
    			suggestions?
    
    4-track		I have my eyes on a Tascam 488, but I don't
    			consider this to be that important, as long as it has
    			slow tapes speed and a decent mixer.
    
    Computer and s/w	This is a killer.  The ST/Monitor/Creator seems a
    			great package for use as a dedicated home sequencer,
    			but I'd need another monitor for games.  I could use
    			a TV with an Amiga, but there's not the software.
    			Also the 8-bit sampler looks attractive.  I guess
    			this is my choice, I know the pros and cons of each.
    
    I don't think there is anything else that will be necessary for now,
    though a reverb unit might come in handy, but cost will postpone that
    for a while.  I do have a worry about all my inputs - I already have 3
    keyboards, a guitar and mic, plus I have the above.  Hopefully the 488
    can cope, if not I'll have to overdub and re-wire all the time.  Then
    there's amps for the keyboards and guitar, oh God!!!
    
    Please throw your advice at me - I might be able to understand a bit
    more now!
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    
    matty
    

    I would avoid a stock DX7 as a controller as it only sends on channel 1
    (not a problem with the DX7-II or units with the E! board added).
    
    On computers, my advice, as you are in the UK, would be to go Atari
    over Amiga.  The latest Ataris  (STE) do have RF outputs so you *can*
    run games on the tube (although graphics are kinda fuzzy) and use the
    mono monitor for "serious" stuff, in fact this is what I do.
    
    Good luck and have fun.  I'll keep my eyes peeled for your name on the
    charts  8^)  8^)
    
    							Brian

    Question!
    
    If I had 10 inputs to be recorded on 4 track would I be right in
    thinking the following?  Either I could use a 4 track with 10 inputs
    (such as a 424) or a mixer/simple 4 track combination.  And if the
    mixer was 16 channels I could cope with 6 more inputs!
    
    What is generally considered the best approach?  This is in view that I
    don't want to be plugging and unplugging every 5 minutes.
    
    
    matty

    
>    If I had 10 inputs to be recorded on 4 track would I be right in
>    thinking the following?  Either I could use a 4 track with 10 inputs
>    (such as a 424) or a mixer/simple 4 track combination.  And if the
>    mixer was 16 channels I could cope with 6 more inputs!

Yup.

>    What is generally considered the best approach?  This is in view that I
>    don't want to be plugging and unplugging every 5 minutes.

Yup. That is, either one can be "best" if it suits your needs/wants. How many
input sources do you have, and how often do you switch between them? Inputs on
a "ministudio" 4-track are pretty accessible, and I personally don't find that
using a mixer as a glorified patch bay justifies its cost. I'd base the decision
to do with an outboard mixer on the featureset you need (and budget, of course).
A ministudio 4-track fits better in a small studio, and is usually much
cheaper than a mixer and a "simple" 4-track. While I've found some minor
limitations with my 4-track's mixer section (Yamaha MT3X), they don't justify
an outboard mixer for me as of yet. (Your mileage may vary.)

Y'know, I think all the rest of us get a certain amount of vicarious pleasure
"observing" you on your quest, matty- best of luck!

Cheers,
	Bob

    Be careful of "10" inputs on the 424.  It's more like 4 full-feature
    mono inputs (i.e. with EQ, effects ends, etc.), 2 pairs of stereo
    inputs with shared gain control (really effects returns; not tone
    controls or sends).  That comes to 8, I don't know if there are any
    more inputs or not.
    
    Outside of open reel machines and the Tascam 234 (apparently still in
    production) there are really no four-tracks *without* mixers built in. 
    if some of those 10 inputs you need are keyboards, you might consder
    a six or eight channel rack-mount keyboard mixer patched into one of
    the stereo returns of a 424, this would give you 10 or 12 channels to
    muck with when doing mixdowns.
    
    						Brian

    re-2,  Bob, I had to look up vicarious.  I may me English but I don't
    talk like James Bond, nor do I drink tea at 4 o'clock and I have never
    owned a bowler hat, nor have any of my friends!  - I'm just plain
    thick! ;-)
    
    I have this thing about information and knowing all the angles before
    going into something.  I don't want to make a mistake.  But you all
    know that feeling.
    
    I so much like participating in this conference that I would like to let
    you know how I'm getting on even after I've left.  I just hope in a few
    years I hit the Top40 and someone who still works for Dec says "I told
    him all about SMPTE" ;-)
    
    Are there any questions I should be asking?  The more I read about this
    recording/keyboards lark the more complicated it gets, and it looks
    like I need more and more equipment - I'm already in torment with
    myself over whether I should get a car or a S950 with the rest of my
    money? ;-)
    
    Please throw all the advice you can at me.
              
    
    matty

re .-1

>    like I need more and more equipment - I'm already in torment with
>    myself over whether I should get a car or a S950 with the rest of my
>    money? ;-)
    
>    Please throw all the advice you can at me.
              
    
>    matty

Matty,

Get the S950 and sample all the cars you can, then when you're on the
bus you can listen to a suitable soundtrack ;-)

Cheers,

    Derek.

    re-1 ;-) ;-) ;-)

    I bought a Korg Polysix at the weekend for only 45 pounds.  I quite
    like it, but not as much as the SH-101.  I can get good metallic bass
    sounds and ambient tinkley sounds, but I really miss the Random VCO
    selector on my SH-101.  I do like the fact that I can save to the 32
    presets.
    
    I don't find it very flexible - am I doing something wrong?
    
    
    the ever inquisitive matty

    The Polysix is actually quite similar to the SH-101 and Roland Junos
    in architecture.  However, you can now see where similar architecture
    doesn't mean similar sound! 
    
    There are MIDI upgrades for the Polysix available from Korg (do a
    dir/key=korg to find a note on it in here).  
    
    Goes to show that good synths are still out there for low money, eh?
    How does it feel to be polyphonic?  
    
    						Brian

    Polyphony is good!  It's like a different instrument when used with
    mellow, ambient sounds.  I wish I had another SH-101 with presets and
    poly mode.  
    
    I also like the Monophonic mode (Unison).  This seems to really
    reinforce (sp?) the sound, though sometimes if I have a good Unison
    voice and I switch to Poly mode, the result sounds nothing like before. 
    Why is that?
    
    I read about the upgrades in the other note.  I don't think I will need
    this because the things the sounds inspire me to play would be easy
    enough to overdub onto a 4 track.  The SH-101 inspires me to sequence
    16 notes per bar, which I can't play, especially while messing with the
    sliders.
    
    I still have a problem that I'm losing sleep over.  It's what to use as
    a controller for the TG33.  I really fancy a D50 but this is expensive. 
    I read that a D50 is Bi-Timbral - does this mean 2 part multitimbral?
    I fancy a look at the CZ101/CZ1000 but I've not come across one yet.
    
    What keyboards are there in the D5/D10 price bracket that I could use
    as a controller?  It must have decent sounds.
    
    
    matty

    The exact meaning of unison mode varies from synth to synth, but in
    general it involves assigning all available voices to the same note,
    and as such it is usually a monophonic mode.  Since simply stacking up
    exactly the same sound (especially the case with digital synths; in
    analog synths, especially the older ones, there may be enough component
    variation (whether inherent or drift related) from voice to voice to
    make the sounds different enough to make unison interesting) would
    just make it louder, not "thicker" or "richer", it's usually possible
    to detune the voices a bit, introducing a chorus like effect.  I
    suspect this is why your unison patches sound different in polyphonic
    mode.
    
    Some synths have variations on the unison mode, like doubling voices
    at the octave (retaining half as much polyphony), or assigning voices
    based on the requested polyphony.
    
    Unison/monophonic mode may also affect the retriggering of envelopes;
    "overlapping" notes (where the NOTE ON for the next note occurs before
    the NOTE OFF for the current note, as is the case with a legato playing
    style) may "inherit" their envelopes from previous notes, so the attack
    phase is not retriggered.  Portamento may also be available only in
    monophonic mode (though some synths do support polyphonic portamento).
    
    len.
      

	Jeez, I've had a Polysix since they came out. What exactly do you
	mean by "not flexible"???

	The "unison" mode should make your timbre louder but you should
	also sound "fatter" since the natural tendency of the VCOs is to
	be not-exactly-in-phase. The architecture of the machine is such
	that each voice is it's own mini-synth, with separate VCO,VCA,
	VCF for each voice. You can't tell that from the front panel since
	the EG and LFO are single, and the voices are all ganged to your
	front panel. 

	Also try "chord" mode. Hit the hold button, play a 3 or 4 note
	chord then hit the chord button. Now you're playing in mono
	mode but with the chord spacing being transposed for each note you
	play. Combine this with arpeggiation/octaves/fifths for a very 
	interesting bass line.

	The filter resonance is quite flexible for a 4-pole LP. You have
	positive and negative bias for EG, you have enough resonance to
	get feedback on your own. You want Simmons sounds, just turn the
	Q up, and make a pingy envelope. Play with the filter keyboard
	tracking to make it less tonal. 

	The arpeggiator can make some pretty reasonable tonal colors
	when run at high speeds with complex chordal structures. Make
	a bell-like timbre and mash the keyboard with the arpeggiator
	latch enabled, arpeggiator mode "down". Instant bell tree. Add
	outboard delay for LSD effects. 

	It makes really decent (IMO) organs too. Knock the filter down
	to get rid of upper harmonics (set your envelope to allow them
	to briefly appear at the beginning of an envelope), use a
	saw, medium filter resonance, and tell me what you get. Use the
	onboard effect (ensemble) for an almost Leslie.

	The only thing I never got my Polysix to do well was piano. It
	does a nice clavinet, analog strings, analog brass, organ, fretless
	bass, and SFX. Not bad for the price you paid ;^)

	/pjh

    re-1; I'll try all that!
    
    Is it worth knowing how to dump to tape?  Do I need more than 32
    patches?
    
    
    matty

    Yes, tape backup, if nothing else, will save your butt the first time
    the machine's memory gets messed up on a gig or you accidentally blow
    away your favorite patch.   
    
    You can certainly find use for more than 32 patches, trust me.  
    
    							Brian

    So how do I link the tape machine to the Polysix?  What cables?  Where
    do I stick 'em?  How do I load back?  Which buttons on the Polysix?
    
    matty

Not wishing to start a rathole, but where did you get the Polysix from ?
Sounds like a good bargain to me - maybe it's time I cluttered my music
room up a bit more :-)

Cheers,

    Derek.

    Hi Derek,
    
    It was a pawn shop in Doncaster.  I think it was just a lucky find as
    they seem to be going for around the 100 mark in the for sale columns.
    
    
    matty

	re: tape in/out

	located on the back of the Polysix. Hook up the out to your tape
	deck's line-in, hook the in to the tape deck's line out.

	You want to do a backup, hit the "TAPE" button, you'll get a pilot
	tone on your meter - set it for about -3dB to 0dB (or -10VU to
	-3VU). Then you can do a "write" (start the deck first, give yourself
	about 10 seconds of pilot tone). You can (I think, I haven't done this
	in way too long) verify your tape after you write it. I found my
	manual while moving my office belongings, once I unpack them I can
	post the actual procedure if you are interested.

	/pjh

    I would appreciate it if you would post the procedure as per manual -
    if there's a mistake to be mad I'll sure make it.
    
    I assume the tape in/out sockets on the Polysix are mono.
    
    Thanks,
    
    
    matty

    re-1,
    
    `mad' -  I told you ;-)

    I have a question re. the Yamaha YMC-10 MIDI to FSK converter.
    
    I don't know what FSK is and was wondering what I could sync to MIDI
    clock using it.  eg.  how about the Roland CV stuff?
    
    
    matty

    I just bought a CZ1000.  I've not tried it out yet, but I'm going
    throught the manual now.
    
    
    matty

    re the CZ1000 the manual says a bit about sys-ex.  Sys-ex is something
    I know knothing about, so I was wondering whether it is possible to
    dump sounds to a Atari's drive and call them back whenever.
    
    The manual gives me the impression that this is possible, but it
    doesn't say how to do this.
    
    Does anyone know if it can and if so how?
    
    Sorry if this seem elementary!
    
    
    matty

    
    re: sysex
    
    You can indeed dump/load the sounds between your CZ1000 and Atari using
    sysex MIDI commands. The easiest way to do this is to buy a librarian
    program (usually includes a patch editor function as well) specifically
    designed for your computer/synth combination. Should be relatively
    inexpensive (maybe even free shareware available?). There are also some
    more generic librarian programs that work with a variety of synths (I'm
    not as familiar with these).
    
    If you're interested in writing such a program yourself, you'll need
    to get a more detailed sysex MIDI implementation guide from Casio. I
    got one for my CZ-101 (which is the same as the CZ-1000) a couple of
    years ago by simply calling Casio. They were very nice and sent it out
    promptly (no charge as I remember). If you have any trouble, I can
    probably dig out my copy. I wrote a simple librarian for my C-64, which
    in retrospect was probably not worth the time I spent on it. Only
    recommended if you enjoy the challenge of programming.
    
    Rob

    	You might want to give Dr. T's a call.  I got a flyer the other day
    that indicated they were having a sale on some of their older software
    titles.  CZ-Rider for the Atart ST was listed for $60.  I've used their
    D-110 editor before and its pretty nice.  Anything is better than
    trying to edit your sounds from the CZ panel (although its better than
    most modern day stuff), and saving them on cassette.
    
    

    The CZ will dump sounds but only when requested by another device over
    MIDI...that is, there is no way to initiate the transfer from the CZ. 
    Also, only single patches are transferred, you cannot dump an entire
    bank.  Matty, I'll mail you the Casio MIDI document which gives you all
    the nitty-gritty.  As I mentioned to you offline, CZPHONIX in the
    MIDILIB area here on the net will do what you want if you can download
    it. 
    
    						Brian 

    Thank Brian,
    
    Does anyone know how I can a get a RAM card for the CZ1000?  It would be
    nice to have those extra sound at a touch of a button.
    
    On a similar line, is there any way I can get hold of a Modulation Grip
    for the SH-101?
    
    
    matty

Matty,

I think you'll have to scour the music shops for the CZ cartridges and the
SH-101 modulation grip. Neither are manufactured any more, but I'm sure 
there are a few gathering dust in the corner of a shop somewhere.

Cheers,

    Derek.

P.S. Dare I ask how much you payed for the CZ1000 ?

    Derek,
    
    The CZ1000 was 80 quid with PSU, MIDI & Audio cables & Manuals.
    
    
    matty (dropped on lucky again) Brown!

    
    
    If you can't find the cartridge, maybe you can find the Electronic
    Musician article from a years ago that shows how to build one from
    Radio Shack parts...  Sorry, don't know which issue it was...
    
    \John
    

    I had my first MIDI link up last night.  I linked my CZ1000 to the
    PSS680.  I worked out how to record the CZ on the PSS' sequencer, and
    how to layer sounds from each keyboard.  It was wonderful - CZ strings
    layered with PSS Piano and put through an analogue Reverb box!
    
    I couldn't get the PSS to transmit seperate sequencer tracks on
    seperate channels to the CZ, but this should be no problem when I find
    the PSS manual.
    
    Anyway, Friday is my last day at DEC and I'd like to thank you all for
    your help, especially Brian Rost and Paul Kent.  Notes has been one of
    the main perks of the job during my 3 years service and it's a shame I
    won't have access afterwards.  I hope DEC never have the stupidity to
    let employee interest Note go.
    
    COMMUSIC has helped me a great deal in choosing what to buy.  Since
    I've been reading this conference I've only bought 4 keyboards, and
    only one of those was MIDI!  But when I get my golden handshake on
    Monday I'll be off down the shop to buy the kit that COMMUSIC and the
    various magazines have aided me in choosing.
    
    I'll be taking about 4-6 months off so I can get on with my music. 
    (It'll take me about 3 months to figure out how to work all the kit!
    ;-)
    
    See you in the charts!
    
    
    matty 
                                            

    Wait!  Before you go, what kind of "kit" do you plan to feed your
    MIDIlust on?
    
    Steve

    I plan to feed my MIDIlust on these;
    
    Atari 1040ST & Cubase or Cubeat.
    Yamaha SY22 keyboard (I was going for a TG33 & controller but they just
    	dropped the price of the SY22 by 200 pounds.  This free's me some
    	money for other stuff when the will takes me.)
    Tascam 424 4 track.
    
    I also might get a Juno 106 - the local shop has one going cheap.  If I
    don't get this I may MIDI up my SH-101.
    
    I will probably buy some module as well, but I still don't know what. 
    I fancy something that would cope with my thing about having loads of
    synthetic drums sounds, but be useful for other sounds too.
    
    I will also get an effects processor or two, but only cheap, simple
    ones.
    
    That will leave me with enough money to maybe buy a sampler (probably a
    S950), but I'd rather save the money for now.
    
    I can't wait to get on with the music!
    
    
    matty