Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    I once did Mozart's Sonata for pinano and violin (K.303) in C.
    
    Am I cool?
    
    Edd

    The real question , to my mind, is why?  Would you copy an oil painting
    in watercolour?  In this notesfile, you would quickly be told that
    acrylic would give you better fidelity, and faster drying time.  Is it
    art, if or because you moved it to another medium?
    
    There are some absolutely spectacular orchestrations on existing
    electronic recordings: particularly the works of Isao Tomita, Patrick
    Gleeson, Ahmin Bhatia, to name a few.  I dunno, I like that old
    Mellotron-through-a-phase-shifter music, myself.
    
    Tom, perhaps you should offer up a medly of "Music by dead composers"
    for the next Commusic tape.
    
    	Eirikur
    	

RE: Dan Eaton

> If it can be played, it can be sequenced.

Only if what you are playing on can do what Tom was talking about accurately.
(No, I am not going to discuss this as I am *not* an expert :-)


re: the topic by Tom

I would like to sequence some of this stuff.  As I am not a real keys player
I tend to do more entry through my computer, and the software allows great 
control over a lot of expressive parameters.  I suppose you could do a really
good rendition of a lot of classical works if your tools will do it, if
you have the necessary skills (arranging, technical, etc), and if you have
a lot of time.  I would tend to use the MIDI equipment as new instruments and
not try to exactly recreate an orchestra playing, kind of like Tomita has done.

Unfortunately I lack many of the skills necessary to do this well and also I
don't have a lot of the time.  I prefer to spend a lot of my time doing new 
stuff, my stuff.

Perhaps in the future I could do some.  I would like to do Mussorgsky's 
"Pictures at an Exhibition."

Chad

    >< Note 2003.1 by WEFXEM::COTE "I sat (where?) one night (when?).." >
>                            -< Took over a week... >->
>
>    I once did Mozart's Sonata for pinano and violin (K.303) in C.
>    
>    Am I cool?
>    
>    Edd
On an Amiga with Deluxe Music it would have taken an evening or two.
    Tom

    >  I once did Mozart's Sonata for pinano and violin (K.303) in C. 
    
    I thought Mozart used Fortran.
    
    Richard.

	I haven't sequenced any classical music, but I am considering
	it. Not because I have a great desire to have a very good sounding
	classical sequence, but I think that I might learn something
	about music in the process. There is nothing like plugging in
	each note into a sequencer to give you an appreciation for the
	work of the composer. I'm sure there are classical structures that 
	can be applied to popular music, and that has obviously been
	done before. 
	
	Any suggestions for some SIMPLE BUT ENLIGHTENING works?
	(no jokes please, I don't understand enough about classical
	 to be able to appreciate them)
Rick

    "Is Bach the only music tolerant of constant tempo, constant dynamic?"

What's this?   MIDI can convey variable dynamics, and I am sure most sequencers
can handle varying tempos (some more easily than others).  The two I have used
sure could.  The big problem when entering in step-time is that is awfully slow
work to do this.  (Like to accent the first beat of *every* measure requires
constant diddling of velocity or dynamic markings, something that most scores
do not bother to show since "everybody knows" you are supposed to do it.)
A velocity-sensitive keyboard would help, but I can't afford that.

    Keyboards are not allowed.
    Anyway, you don't always accent the first and third beat, at least
    not in 3/4 and 5/4, and also not in 4/4, but you often need to elongate
    the first and third beats in 4/4 meter, so the technical result
    is a different tempo on EACH BEAT in EVERY measure.
    Mozart's quick movements, such as the first movement of the popular
    C major sonata , are also tolerant of constant tempo.
    Tom

    Re: Easy ones...
    
    I'd recommend the only one I did, K.303. It's in C, so you're not
    goofing up forgetting sharps and flats. It's only 2 instruments,
    piano and violin, it's got some challenging parts like trying to
    simulate "pedal down" (I didn't have a pedal!), and the score is
    available at the Worcester Library on Salem St.
    
    Edd

    re: 0
    
    Tom, I don't know that there is any one "type" of Classical music
    that fares better than another.  I am working with a lot of classical
    music of all types and enjoy sequencing most of it.  The main reason
    is what Rick points out in .7: you can learn alot about the music
    by sequencing it. 
    
    When I seq a Bach Organ Prelude or the introduction to a ballet
    by Stravinsky, I learn a great deal about how the sounds come together.
    I also get an insight into what the composer must have heard in
    his or her mind in creating the work.  Bach is definitely NOT the
    only classical composer whose work can be fun to sequence.  I have
    done works by Handel, Morely, Byrd, Rameau, Britten, Tippett,
    Stravinsky, ....  Anybody's music I like is liable to be seq'ed!
    
    To be sure, getting things like rhythmic changes down is tricky.
    I could see how a Chopin Prelude might challenge most sequencing
    programs.  BTW, I tend not to step, but to play parts into the 
    program from the keyboard.  I find it faster and easier.  I then
    will "clean up" the timing or tone as needed (I use SEQUENCER Plus
    MKII).  
    
    Recently our church did a performance of an Argentine Mass by Ramirez
    and the choirmaster asked me to provide a "string bass" and the
    assorted latin percussion on my synths and DMs.  For the prelude
    I did a sequenced version of the 1st of Bach's 18 Leipzig Chorales
    and closed with a version of Morely's "Now is the Month of Maying".
    People loved it!!! 
    
    Finally, in regard to how "authentic" can you get, I think if you
    get to heavy into that question (or as in .2, "Why do it?") you
    are missing the point, IMO.  I'm not trying to put the Academy of
    St. Martin's in the Field out of work.  I'm just trying to learn
    more about the music while having some fun doing it!!  :-)
    
    Clusters,
    Bill Allen @MPO
    
    

             <<< Note 2003.7 by VOLKS::RYEN "Rick Ryen 285-6248" >>>
                            -< What can you learn? >-

>	Any suggestions for some SIMPLE BUT ENLIGHTENING works?
>	(no jokes please, I don't understand enough about classical
>	 to be able to appreciate them)

Rick,

I've been doing a lot of classical sequencing using Master Tracks Pro on
a Mac Plus. Some suggestions for works are Mozart's "Eine Kleine Nacht Musik"
which is for Chamber orchestra (strings), and Vivaldi's "The Four Seasons".
If you want a straight forward orchestral score, the Sinfonia of Mozart's
"Marriage of Figaro" is excellent.

I buy the study scores from Boston Music, ordering by phone and paying by credit
card. I've found that patch 026 on the Kurzweil 1000PX is about the only
synth string patch that can handle the variety of bowing techniques and make
it sound like a real string orchestra. The articulation percentage and
release parameters are the critical factors, with dynamics and tempo being
secondary for realism. I still haven't found a solo violin patch on any
synth that comes even close to doing it justice.

Using patch 026 on the 1000PX, here are the articulation percentages I use:

Notes:		Percentage:

staccato	50%		staccato
normal		80%		as written
16th		90%		used for rapid bowing
slurs		100%		legato

I concentrate on music that is public domain, because it can be sold without
any ASCAP or BMI fees to my customers. I go in for realism, so I'm constantly
searching for a great solo violin. Maybe the Proteus has it?

dave

    The largest thing I've sequenced is Eine Kleine Nachtmusik I-III
    and it lent a whole new appreciation of what the composer did.
    
    I don't have a computer, the sequencing was all via the B&W keys
    into my ESQ-1 in step-time. (hold the notes, hit <STEP>, hold new
    notes, hit <STEP>, remember to not retrigger the half notes, etc.
    Lots of fun...:-) )
    
    (If you want a lot of fun, sequence by ear in step time Beethoven's
    9'th symphony, 4th movement.  There are things in there that are
    really neat that aren't apparent to the ears on hearing, but are
    wonderful little jokes when you play them.  They're things that
    are easy to do with sequence edits- but Beethoven _didn't have_
    a sequence editor.  He did it all in his head! )
    
    	-Bill
                                                   

    re .5 - yes, but DMCS is a little stilted in its treatment of
    expression (e.g., it simulates legato playing style by extending
    the release time of the amplitude envelope, altering the instrumental
    timbre rather than the playing style; it doesn't do crescendos very
    well, imparting a sort of "terrace dynamics" to a piece instead;
    it doesn't handle rubato).  All of these things can be done properly
    with any decent sequencer, but they require additional work.  There's
    more to quality sequencing than just copying a score.
    
    len.
    

    One of the fun things about sequencing piano music, is that you get to
    orchestrate it (assuming you have enough synth modules, or a multitrack).
    
    I enjoyed doing some of Bela Bartok's Mikrocosmos -- there's a lot more
    there than meets the eye! Just as the string quartets are a
    distillation of his composition style, the Mikrocosmos is a further
    distillation.
    
    I've also done something
    similar with Chick Corea's Children's Songs.  Not really classical, but 
    it's all notated. Lots of ostinato.
    
    Another reason for sequencing -- it's awfully hard to find players who
    are talented enough/have the time to play your original compositions. I
    sequenced a percussion sextet I wrote (3 mallet, tuned keyboard
    percussion, 3 untuned percussion) that was written using 12-tone
    system. I used Mark of the Unicorn Performer, with slightly varying
    tempo throughout, althout actual tempo changes aren't marked in the
    score; just the usual conductor liberties. It was really terrible
    without the tempo variations. I used synth/sampler combinations. The
    hardest things were coming up with good rolls.
                                           

    	The begining of Stravinsky's ballet ORPHEUS has a real haunting,
    but beautiful theme in the strings against a harp slowly playing
    descending tones (ie dropping tears).   The rhythym is typically
    Stravinsky...free form; and the mode...12-tone.  I've always liked
    this piece but was afraid it would lose a lot in the "translation".
    But I decided to give it a crack.
    
    	So, I found the best String patches I had (the K5 seems to have
    better ones than the D110) and combined them with realistic Harp
    and Brass (from the D110) and had at it.  I did one part at a time,
    layering them from the top (1st Violin) down (Contrabass).  With
    a touch of hall reverb (thanks MIDIverb II!) I was blown away by
    how close the finished product sounded to a real ensemble playing
    this piece.  Along the way I got to really HEAR the inner parts,
    and feel what their contribution was to the whole.  
    
    	In the case of the Bach Chorale, "Komm Heiliger Geiste" BWV651,
    although I've always loved this piece, I never had the technical
    ability to pull it off.  It's very demanding with three (at the
    end four) voices going over the melody on the foot pedals.  MIDI
    gives me the flexibility to put each part in from bar 1 to bar 90,
    layering each part on top of the other.  Or, as I did, take the
    process in 6-8 bar chunks.  That way I don't get burned out, so
    easily.  Played with the Pipe Organ 2 D110 patch, you'd be hard
    pressed to tell how this was really performed.  But the real fun 
    came in deciding how we could "improve" on this.  
                                               
    	After all, we had a perfectly good pipe organ at the church,
    and the organist did not want to be put out of a nice gig :-).
    I decided to have each of the upper parts represented by a sonically
    distinct timbre (oh no, not the T-word).  We ended up with : Harp,
    Pizzicato, and Celesta.  The Cantus Firmus in the bass was a Synth
    Bass, a mellow DX-like string, and a ghostly Whistle all combined.
    The result was something familiar, yet unfamiliar in which at any
    given time you could clearly hear Bach's brilliant counterpoint.
    
    	Handel's Concerti Grossi are also great for this.  I've even
    taken piano reductions like Warlock's Capriol Suite (originally
    for string orchestra, reduced for two pianos) and "built them back
    up" into the ensemble sound.  
    
    	Again, the point of doing this is not to fool myself or anybody
    else.  If anything, the first time listening to the final product
    it becomes clear what you're missing in tone and dynamics.  But
    at that point the real fun begins as I learn what makes these pieces
    "sound" like they do; the subtle dynamic and tonal changes that
    often cannot be written into the score.  
    
    	Two caveats:
    
    1) I try to back off when I run into things that can't be done (eg.
    complicated trills combined with tempo changes).  I could spend
    hours trying to engineer these little things in when even in real
    life, people leave tham out specifically because they ARE difficult
    to do.                                                             
    
    2) Spending too much time doing this can lead to a kind of "Mecho-ear"
    or "Quantaudition".  I was at a recent performance of the St. Paul
    Chamber Orchestra and began to feel a little uncomfortable because
    it appeared that not everyone was playing in tune or on the beat.
    (Perhaps this affliction and remedies for it are a good idea for
    another topic 8-))
    
    Clusters,
    Bill Allen
    

	First thing I sequenced using Dr. T's was the "Three Gymnopoedies" 
	and my brain is dead and I can't remember who wrote the arrangement
	right now. Scored it for trombones and played it on the EPS. 

	I was also considering some Mendelsohn pieces from a book I recently
	bought ("Songs without Words") which has some nice passacaglia form
	parts that might be interesting realized via sequencer and sampler.

	I did a series from my elementary piano book too, to use as examples
	to figure out how to use Dr. T's PVG. Really simple stuff. From
	"Easy Classics to Moderns, Vol 17". Good examples to work from.

	/pjh	

    I've found the best way to get a really good string ensemble sound
    is to layer string patches from several synths of different
    architectures, especially if there are oatches available corresponding
    to each of the string groups (violins, violas, cellos, basses).  This
    uses up synths, so you may have to relegate it to one pass of a
    multitrack session.  Of course, the effect is considerably aided by
    recording in stereo and judicious use of chorus.
    
    The longest "classical" fragment I've sequenced is the first 55
    bars of the first movement of Bach's Sixth Brandenburg Concerto.
    After that my MSQ-100 ran out of memory, and I can no longer read
    the data tape to transfer the sequence from the MSQ-100 to my MC-500.
    One thing I have wanted to do for some time is sequence the cadenza
    to the first movement of Prokoviev's Second Piano Concerto; another
    is an orchestral transcription of one of Schubert's Impromptus.
    
    I'll second the idea that the main reason to do this sort of thing
    is to learn.  It's analogous to the painter's tradition of copying
    the work of acknowledged masters.
    
    len.
    

    >< Note 2003.18 by DRUMS::FEHSKENS >
>              -< Oatches, Patches, Natchez, You Know What I Mean >-
>  It's analogous to the painter's tradition of copying
>    the work of acknowledged masters.
>    
>    len.
 I disagree.  Playing something McCoy Tyner after hearing on the record
    is analogous to the painter's tradition of copying the work of
    acknowledged masters.  Playing a musical score on machine is different
    and less of a learn.  A good learn is also to write something similar
    to the master's, but not for too many years.
    I sequenced veritably all my music last year; it was written from
    1971 to 1987 in full scores for piano, orchestra, voice, winds,
    etc., in a classical context.  It was 7 hours of music, and I did
    it in 3 months.  That's part of why I'm asking.  When I had a piano
    I enjoyed playing orchestral scores and piano transcriptions at
    the piano, but can't seem to justify sequencing other people's music
    enough to do it.  My study of music is over.   My study of writing
    is  resuming.
    Tom

    re .17
    
    You wouldn't still have that Satie score, would you?
    
    Edd

    re .19
    
    > "My study of music is over. My study of writing is resuming."
       
    
      ?  ?
    
       ~
    		(please SET=@REPHRASE...)

    
    re .19
    
    > "My study of music is over. My study of writing is resuming."
    
    NEVER !!!
    
    You'll never look at a piano the same way again, and you know it.
    
    And unless you, by some mischance, are NEVER exposed to any music
    again (familiar or unfamiliar, humanmade or natural), and never
    think about music, or number theory, or fourier space again, you
    will continue to "study music" whether you believe you are studying
    music or not.
    
    I think the only way you can do this is by immediately committing
    suicide (not that I am advocating this in any way). 
    
    	-Bill

re: Edd

	Yeah, that's it. Erik Satie. Yup, not only do I have the original,
	now I have a transcription in softcopy. Makes a HUGE PostScript
	file, but you should see it on an LN03R ;^)

	You looking for a copy?

	/pjh

    Tom, thanks for an interesting topic.
    
    I have sequenced fragments of a number of 'classical' pieces. Among
    them are:
    
    Boccherini - Minuet from string quintet in E
    
    Mozart - Eine Kleine Musik_that_everyone_can_hum
    
    Beethoven - Rondo from Symphony #7
    
    The Boccherini and the Mozart involved the annoying (for me at least)
    task of reading Viola cleff. The Beethoven was done using the piano
    4-hand transcriptions, and the orch scores for voicing reference. 
    
    Mahler 1?? No thanks. I am planning on doing the Andante Moderato from
    Mahler 2.
    
    Good horns are a problem for me, armed (disarmed?) only with an ESQ-1
    and TX81Z. Any decent bress ensemble patches for these machines?? I've
    hacked the cheesy strings into decent violins, and the TX81 cello patch
    was toned down to produce a really nice deep string tone. (BTW why is
    it that every string patch I've ever heard has an attach time on the
    order of hours with no velocity scaling???)
    
    I think it's fun attacking (litterally!) the classics. Among the pieces
    I'd like to try: Bizet Symphony in C finale, Beethoven Piano Concerto #5 
    (after I get the PX-1000 :^), Saint-Saens French Military March (where
    IS that score?!!?)
    
    dp
    
    

    Last night started the sacrificial dance from rites of spring.
    I could never get a duet player who could play the rhythms; I got
    tired of teaching it and gave up looking for a partner.  The computer
    doesn't complain, and I can use the original rhythm notation in
    this progra.
    m
    Tom.

    Hi!
         I too am interested in sequencing classical music and have
    learned a great deal by producing Tchaikovskys Nutcracker Suite
    from the Eulenburg Pocket Edition of the complete orchestral score.
     The sequencer I used was a Yamaha QX5 in step time mode, and I
    reckon it took three years from start to finish. One of the major
    problems was in getting a good string patch which would keep up
    with the fast/slow attack dynamics, but the addition of a Kawai
    K1m layered over my DX7S, the strings for the latter having been
    tweeked and re-tweeked over the project period, helped give a
    reasonable string texture which when used in conjunction with the
    remaining orchestral instruments, gives a fair imitation of a full
    orchestra.
     The equipment I used is-
                          
    YAMAHA QX5
    YAMAHA DX7S
    YAMAHA TX81Z
    YAMAHA FB01
    KAWAI K1m
    YAMAHA TX7
    YAMAHA KM802 Mixer
    SIMMONS SPM82 Midi Prog. Mixer
    ALESIS MICROVERB X 2
    YAMAHA RX17
    AKAI MIDI DELAY
    
    I too am looking forward to the EMU PROTEUS and plan to replace
    the QX5 with an Atari - Software Sequencer package, but in the
    meantime I feel I have learned a lot using relatively basic
    equipment, and agree that a lot of pleasure can be gained by almost
    stumbling across textures and phrases in the score that suggest
    what the composer had originally in mind, and does not always come
    across in a commercial recording.
     I find ballet music of this nature is particulary attractive for
    sequencing work as there is an opportunity to animate, or make the
    music move so to speak, and encourages the departure in sequencer
    use from mechanical pianola roll type applications.
     Anyway, its a lot of fun and I am looking forward to my next project
    - has anyone actually seen or heard a PROTEUS? There is a lot of
    speculation in the music technology press here but there seems no
    immediate release date yet.
     I am very keen to hear examples of home produced classical sequences,
    and would be more than happy to forward anyone who is interested
    a stereo tape of my efforts.
    
                      Very Best Regards   Brian Robson
                                          Edinburgh  Scotland.
    

    < Note 2003.27 by FULMER::ROBSONB >
>    - has anyone actually seen or heard a PROTEUS? There is a lot of
>    speculation in the music technology press here but there seems no
>    immediate release date yet.
    
    PROTEUS has its own topic.. do a DIR/TITLE="PROTEUS" to find it.
    yes, some folks have heard one..

    karl in Tucson AZ USA

    At a recent LERDS-BIM we stumbled into fantasy mode and discussed doing
    a MIDI symphony... Participants could sequence individual parts on
    whatever seq's and SGUs they own. Then we get together, sync the whole
    mess together and see what happens....
    
    Edd

    One thing that can be fun and educational without the pain of all the
    note entry is to arrange a piece that comes to you as a MIDI file.
    Places like GEnie and CompuServe, and local bulletin boards tend to
    have MIDI files for various classical works and popular pieces (which
    present copyright problems if you do more than amuse yourself).
    
    Most good sequencers read MIDI files.  The reason that I suggest
    starting with a MIDI file is that all it saves you is the note entry. 
    There are often sequencer-specific files available for downloading, but
    then you wind up just tweaking what the originator had done.
    
    	Eirikur
    

    Thanks Karl for the pointer towards PROTEUS - I have read the extremely
    informative replies and can hardly wait!
    
    Best Regards
    
    Brian
    

    
    
    Brian...
    
    I believe you are in SWAS in Livingstone...(is this correct ?) I get
    up your way occasionally. I would love to get a tape of your efforts.. 
                
    How can we arrange this ? You could phone on 7851 2007.
    
                                        Paul.
    					

    re .27:
    
    If you really like contemporary (20th Century) ballet music, try
    some of Stravinsky's ballets.  They take a little work but you come
    away with a deeper understanding of the music.  The opening to ORPHEUS
    is very moving if done faithfully.
    
    I have also found that much of the Baroque ballet music translates
    well over to the synth.  Watch your tempos, though, or it begins
    to sound very mechanical :( .  I like Jean Phillipe Rameau, but
    sheet music of his ballets is very hard to come by.
    
    Clusters, 
    Bill Allen
                                                       

    Try Stravinsky's le Sacre du Printemps.  I put in part of the
    Sacrificial Dance , but got
    bored. (I've spent 17 years studying that piece and playing it for
    myself at the piano (not to performance level)).
    Tom

    Hi Paul...
    
    I am in Field Service in Livingston and my All-in - One mail stop
    is ROBSONB@EDO or NIBLIK::ROBSON. I am now site-resident so I do
    not have a DTN as such but I will let you know my daytime number.
     I will be back up home at the weekend when I will make a copy then
    get in touch re. your internal mail address.
    
    Best Regards,
    Brian
    

    Re: Midi Files 2003.30
    
      This sounds a good idea but I would suggest it is by no means
    a "A lazy person's option" as a lot of work is required in moulding
    the notes into shape, I should imagine, but the idea of having all
    the notes pre-programmed is very attractive as it would save a lot
    of time because the framework is already provided for you to leave
    time for creativity.
      Roughly what titles are available, Eirikur, and in what degree
    of complexity?
      I wonder if one day we might see a light-pen device which when
    drawn across the score will convert the output to midi!
    
    Brian

    Terry could you please send me your mail address on
    NIBLIK::ROBSON or FULMER::ROBSONB as I cannot find you on
    the network to reply to your mail.
    
    Jim could you also do the same?
    
    Brian.
    

    re .36:
    
    I just happen to have this list of MIDI files on GEnie sitting in my
    paste buffer.  I'm not volunteering to fetch them right now.
    
    13818 BACH WTC BK1MIDIFILE.SIT X EDWARDPGRANT 890525  202860     29   2
          Desc: Arkive of 48 files Preludes/Fugues
    13658 BEETHOVEN OP27#2.MF.SIT  X EDWARDPGRANT 890507   35280     41   2
          Desc: Moonlight Sonata in Midifile format
    13653 DECEMBER.MIDIFILES.SIT   X EDWARDPGRANT 890507   51660     56   2
          Desc: George Winston's music for piano
    11213 NIGHTS.MIDIFILE.SIT      X EDWARDPGRANT 880923    5040     89   2
          Desc: Nights in White Satin - Midifile
     9423 RAP IN BLUE.MIDIFILE.SIT X EDWARDPGRANT 880429   56700     71   2
          Desc: Gershwin's classic piano piece.
     
    		Eirikur
    

    Any chance of making these MIDIfiles available ?  Sounds interesting
    (especially "Rhapsody in Blue")
    
    Jim Burke

Eirikur,

	I second .39 - any chance of making them available to the public (us)?

	:^) :^)

	Thanks, 
	Dan

Getting them is simple folks, just subscribe to Genie...

Chad