Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    At least Roland will sell you the service manuals. I still can't get
    them out of the folks at Ensoniq. Arrgh!
    
                   Dave...Ensoniq/Yamaha

    Yeah but Ensoniq stuff never breaks.  ;-)
    
    Dave, while your at it, *PLEASE* throw in a flame or two about
    Roland manuals.  I am actually comtemplating a self-imposed moratorium
    on Roland equipment because of their piss poor manuals.  They should
    not feel like they can get away with half-assed jobs on the manuals.
    
    Tell them this son is thinking about getting a K1R over a D-110
    solely as a protest against their manuals.
    
    	db

Got my newest BYTE yesterday.

There is a review on plotters.

The reviewer had good words to say about the Roland plotters, especially
their documentation.  It (documentation) was (in my own paraphrasing)
well written and useful.

Chad

    re .1
    
    I support you in trying to get to the source in Japan to raise this
    issue to a higher level.  Having worked with a number of H/W and
    S/W MIDI vendors, I am convinced that KAWAI is the best of the bunch.
    Their people are pleasant and knowledgeable on the phone, and if
    they say they are going to send you something, they do.  Their products
    work and are intuitive, and the documentation is clear.  YAMAHA (4-Trk/
    Mixer) and VOYETRA (Sequencer Plus) are also pretty good.   
    
    ROLAND has been a little dissapointing, so far.  As mentioned
    elsewhere, their documentation is attrocious.  When you call them
    to clarify things, they seem a bit impatient and even disorganized.
    Maybe I've been spoiled by KAWAI.  At any rate, I am giving KAWAI
    and VOYETRA strokes whenever I call so that they'll keep up the
    good work!
    
    Clusters,
    
    Bill Allen @MPO
     

An article in last weeks USNews & WR had an article about machine translation.
It talked mostly from the Japanese use of computers to translate Japanese
to english.  Seems a lot of companies use machines to translate their
documentation to English, at least on the first pass.  Made me think of
the Roland discussion :-)

Chad

    Yeah, I'll confirm the latest documentation abomination from Roland.
    The manual for the new MC-500 sequencer software is the worst manual
    I've ever seen, bar none.  And I thought the previous one was bad...
    
    But I still like what it does, once I figure it out.
    
    len.
    

    Just when I had hoped to be able to hate roland forever :-), thay
    announce a product that looks good to me. 
    
    GR-50 Guitar synth system: LA Sounds, MIDI controller capability,
    8msec conversion time!! (vs 24 on the older systems) and best of
    all, no nasty wierd pickup, you just plug your guitar in, any guitar
    and play it.
    
    If it works, I guess I'll have to get one.
    
    dbii

    Rather than start a new topic ...

    Anyone know anything about Roland "cracking down" on mail order houses?
    For example, I had a deal set up to get a W30 and a Proteus, and the
    deal fell thru, because (in the words of the dealer), "Roland will drop
    us as a dealer if we continue to sell mail order". 

    The implication was that they (Roland) are trying to quash mail order
    discounts on their equipment.  Given that they're the hottest mfgr out
    there right now, I'm inclined to think they're being greedy and am
    considering withdrawing my W30 order. 

    Anyone have any more info or comments?

-b

    I've heard this rumor before, but am no more able to substantiate
    it now than I was then.  It doesn't make a whole lot of sense -
    what does Roland care how much consumers pay for their gear, as
    long as they get the same wholesale cost from their dealers?  It
    would seem to be in Roland's best interest for their equipment to
    be discounted (the dealer's the one who has turn a profit on his
    margins) and so increase its attractiveness to consumers.  So "greed"
    on Roland's part can't be their motivation.  Nor can I see why Roland
    would care whether a dealer sold mailorder or walkin, unless it
    had some effect on Roland's support costs, and I'm hard pressed
    to imagine how it might.  Again, Roland is screwing itself by limiting
    distribution channels.  Usually it's the *dealer* who tries to get
    an exclusive dealership arrangement so he doesn't have to compete
    with anybody else locally and can then charge what the traffic will bear.
    
    It seems more likely to me that this dealer isn't a Roland "authorized"
    dealer.  Authorized dealers usually commit to move some volume of
    a manufacturer's product and provide certain kinds of support. 
    Either that or the deal he struck got overridden by his boss ("You
    told him he could have a W30 for HOW MUCH!!!???  You @#$%^ing
    idiot!!  No @#$%^&ing way!!") and he just won't admit it to you.
    
    I think this salesman is misrepresenting the real situation to you.
    His explanation just doesn't compute for me.
                                                   
    len.                 
    
    

    Len,
    
>    I think this salesman is misrepresenting the real situation to you.
>    His explanation just doesn't compute for me.
    
    Actually, I think I can give you a way to "compute" that explanation.
    
    And, I think it's something I've said many times before in this
    conference. 
    
    This has happened before in this market as well as others.
    
    Roland isn't the "bad guy" here.  What almost certainly has happened
    is that retail stores have said, "Look, we can't compete in product
    lines that are available via MO so we just aren't going to sell
    anything that's offered via MO.  Not only can't we compete, we lose
    money AND we SUBSIDIZE our competition by having the overhead of
    showrooms and such that allow people to see and demo the stuff,
    and then go order it cheaper from MO."
    
    Roland knows that it NEEDS those retailers, and thus has to make
    this kind of gesture to keep them.
    
    It's an old dilemna.
    
    OK, folks.  Let's commence with the inevitable flogging of the
    "greedy" retailiers (not that I buy it but folks always go
    for the easiest scapegoat).
    
    	db

    Yeah, that computes.
    
    But it seems to me this qualifies as "restraint of trade" and makes
    Roland liable for legal action by any MO dealer who feels
    "discriminated" against.
    
    len.
     

    Yeah, but I would say that it's hard to pick out the "bad guys"
    here.  Take your pick:
    
    	1) Folks who demo in stores and buy MO
    
    	2) MO's who depend on (1)
    
    	3) Roland
    
    	4) Retailers 
    
    I'm looking for the first (2 or 3) place(s) I warned of this and
    lectured about the buying practice of (1) so that I can collect my 
    "I told you so's".  ;-)
    
    	db

Anyway,

We have one instance of perhaps pressure not to MO (this being Brad's).  Unless
we can see more instances and show that this is a real effort and not a loner
then I think we must admit that len is pretty right, though what db has said
is true.  I think the store changed its mind and didn't want to admit it
or something along that line.

Chad

Anybody else have a story to tell?

    re: .13
    
    > We have one instance of perhaps pressure not to MO... Unless we see
    > more and show this is a real effort.
    
    > I think the store changed its mind...
    
    Chad,
    
    I agree that it's best not to draw conclusions, but I don't think we
    should draw them either way.
    
    And this is NOT the only instance.  Len said he's heard of this
    before, I've certainly heard it.  And as I said, it's far from the
    first time this has happened - in this market as well as other
    markets.
    
    It would be a simple thing to have people call their favorite mail
    order salesman and ask a few questions.   I'm sure they'd be more than
    happy to express outrage at Roland if this is true.
    
    	db

db,
We may have instances before, but not in recent (last few weeks or months - at
least that has been reported here - the only reliable source :-) time
so it is a loner.

CHad

So there :-) :-) :-)

    Chad,
    
    You think want you want to think.
    
    That it hasn't been "reported here" does not seem all that significant
    That Len and I have heard of the same rumor independently and on
    seperate occasions DOES seem significant... at least to me.
    
    There's a big world outside of what's written in COMMUSIC.
    
    I actually don't think Roland will pull anything from MO.  In the
    past, some sort of "gesture" to the retailers has been as far as
    its gotten.
    
    Are you old enough to remember "fair trade pricing" and the Timex
    battle? That's another potential "gesture" they could make.
    
    Anyway, if I get some time, I'm gonna make some phone calls.  Hope
    others will stop speculating and do the same.  This could have a
    significant impact on MIDIholics.
    
    	db

    I might be able to save you the trouble.  I didn't want to name names,
    but I had in an order at ProFound Sound for a W30.  According to Shane
    (who I happen to trust a great deal, bad reviews in this conference
    notwithstanding), their Roland rep threatened to yank their franchise
    if they continued to sell mail order ... something having to do with
    their 800 number. 

    I then called Chuck Levin's Music Center (who has no 800 number).
    Talked to Mark Towles (who I also trust a great deal), and he said
    Roland was giving them the same jive - "stop selling mail order". 

    So I would probably disagree with the earlier assessments.  Let us know
    if you find anything out, db. 

-b

db,

Now we have two independent cases, and things start to look interesting.  (BTW -
the remark I made about it not being in COMMUSIC had a bunch of :-) :-) :-),
remember?).  But before we had a single incident.  I don't care if you or len
in the past heard similar things -- that was the *PAST* and cannot be used
to justify a pattern of behavior *today*, *the here and now*. Now that we have
two cases, like I said, it gets interesting and we might be able to define some
sort of pattern of behavior for what is happening *now*, for *today's* policies,
etc.

Chad

    Since my name's being invoked as evidence, let me say that the only
    place I've heard this rumor is in COMMUSIC, and the only other time
    I heard was over a year ago.  So I don't personally consider
    myself able to supply any support for the rumor's existence, truth,
    or otherwise.
     
    len.
    

    All smoke/naming aside, I'm curious if anyone else has experienced
    something similar of late, and what the reasoning was. 

    Of course, I've found someone who's willing to ignore the risk and sell
    me a box, but I'm still curious. 

-b

    Not with Roland but with Alesis....
    
    We don't *mail order* alesis anymore...
    
    dbii

    I wasn't speaking "in the past".
    
    I'm not going to "debate" how to interpret what we hear.   As I said,
    you believe what you want.
    
    	db
    

    Ok, ok.  db, did you ever call around for yourself?  Has anyone
    else?  What's the scoop?

-b

    I talked to someone who was at NAMM.  He got the impression that there
    was a special meeting between retailers and Roland and that that
    was the topic.
    
    Had a real busy week and didn't have time to call.

	I walked into E.U.W. in Framingham more than a year ago.  I was
	browsing around, played with virtually all the keyboards with no
	intention to buy.  Jack Colburn, the Keyboard guy(is he still
	there?), and I shot the sh*t for a while.  And I took off.  Later
	on I stopped buy and they had a D-50 there.  The guys didn't
	know the price, but asked me to come back when Jack was there.
	I doodled around with it, liked it, asked questions here and on
	the Net.  Decided I was 99% sure I'd buy it.

	I stopped by E.U.W. again and asked Jack, 'How much?'  He said
	something like, '$1595 and that's the lowest price you'll see.
	Won't even get it cheaper mail-order.'  I asked, 'Why's that?'
	He said, 'Roland will pull the Pro line from any dealer that
	discounts any of the Pro units.'  He went on to say, 'If you find
	it for less mail-order, I'll sell it to you for the same price
	as long as you tell me the dealer that you bought it from.' 
	Although I could understand why this was in place I asked for
	Jack' opinion.  He said, '1) to be fair to the showroom dealers,
	and 2) keep the aftermarket price up.'  Whereupon I mentioned the
	hassle the dealers get from people who buy from the MO dealer and
	go to the Showroom dealer for help when they are stuck.  I walked
	out of there without the D-50, as they didn't have any in stock,
	and displeased about Roland's price-fixing.

	So I called around and found that it wasn't very easy to find
	one in stock.  On the net, someone suggested buying from ProFound.
	I called, they had it for $1300, in stock next week and I bought
	it there.  I received it within a month.  After I ordered it, I
	stopped by E.U.W. and talked with Jack, mentioning that I didn't
	think that the price-fixing was fair to the consumer.  He changed
	his offer, it was now dinner for the name of a MO dealer who'd sell
	for less.

	Well, reflecting on it and reading the replies in here, it's pretty
	obvious to me what's been going on and that Roland is following thru.
	Whoever said the *past* *is* *the* *past* is sure right!  The present
	is the *PAST*^2!  What about all that stuff with Sam Ash?  Geez!

	Anyway, I don't approve of the price-fixing practice.  Are there
	that many people who'll go to mail-order for the big stuff?  There
	must be a balance somewhere.  For example, I believe my MO limit
	is $2000.  If I ever decide to buy a S-550, you can bet I'll get
	it at E.U.W.  If I have any problems with it I'd rather have a
	nearby dealer rather than have to mail it away to some one who'll
	mail off to somewhere else!

	Dan

    The MO issue is a big deal for people like me (I live 80 miles from a
    music store that carries *any* pro gear).  I buy *all* my gear mail
    order ... and most of it as a result of opinions/recommedations
    expressed in this conference. 

-b

    re .25 - Jack's now at Acton Music on route 27 'twixt Maynard and
    Acton.
    
    len.
    

    Fortunately, Roland doesn't make anything that I'm interested in
    buying right now, so it's easy for me to say I'm boycotting Roland
    on the grounds that they are attempting to fix prices.
             
    Besides, weren't "Fair-trade pricing" actions declared unconstitutional
    in the early 70's?
                      
    -------
    
    I'd have to think a lot harder if it was Ensoniq or Alesis doing
    the "price-fixing"...
    
    	-Bill

    Oh goodie, another devil's advocate opportunity for me to debate. ;-)
    
    Everyone seems to be ganging up on Roland.  Does no one understand
    the position they are in?
    
    The dealers are saying that "we can't compete on your product line
    because of MO, so we're not going to sell your stuff".
    
    If they actually follow through, that would probably decimate
    the product line because it's hard to sell products that sell
    for 4 figures sight unseen (and unheard).   Showrooms are where
    products are launched.
    
    What do you think would happen to Roland if they (as some of you
    seem to wish) said "No, by gosh, we're not gonna do this because
    we are a noble and honest company and if showrooms can't compete
    on price, we'd rather let our products get pulled out than
    compromise our integrity."
    
    	db

    
    I think a significant number of their customers AREN'T as keen on
    cut-price deals as you may think. Many people probably don't give a
    toss if they could buy a similar unit after a two+ week wait from a
    guy they haven't seen for a bit less.
    
    Richard.

    re: .30
    
>    I think a significant number of their customers AREN'T as keen on
>    cut-price deals as you may think.
    
    If that's true, then the blame is on the showrooms, NOT Roland.
    
    Roland is merely reacting to pressure that the showrooms are
    putting on them.   On the other hand though, it would seem reasonable
    to believe that the showrooms are more likely to know the effect of 
    MO than you or I, and thus what this action MAY tell us is that
    the number is not "significant", as you've said.
    
    	db

RE: < Note 1783.29 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Conliberative" >
>                      -< Let's be pragmatic for a moment >-
>    
>    Everyone seems to be ganging up on Roland.  Does no one understand
>    the position they are in?
Sure do...but does anyone really understand the ratio of MO buyers vs
Showroom buyers?  I don't think anybody does.
    
>    The dealers are saying that "we can't compete on your product line
>    because of MO, so we're not going to sell your stuff".
A drop of milk out of a quart container drips on the floor and the dealers
start crying.
    
>    If they actually follow through, that would probably decimate
>    the product line because it's hard to sell products that sell
>    for 4 figures sight unseen (and unheard).   Showrooms are where
>    products are launched.
'Bull-feathers!!!' - Col. Potter MASH 4077th  - If they follow thru,
which I doubt with a product line like Roland's (IMO), another dealer
will gladly snap it up.
    
>    What do you think would happen to Roland if they (as some of you
>    seem to wish) said "No, by gosh, we're not gonna do this because
>    we are a noble and honest company and if showrooms can't compete
>    on price, we'd rather let our products get pulled out than
>    compromise our integrity."
Great stuff would happen - Free trade.  Roland, if they stay on their
path product wise will continue to sell.  Showroom dealers can't keep
enough of the good equipment on their shelves.  For example, the D-50
I ordered thru ProFound came in a month, had I put my name on the waiting
list at the Framingham store, I would've waited 3 or 4 months.

    
RE: < Note 1783.30 by MARVIN::MACHIN >
>                      -< That looks good -- I'll have it >-
>    
>    I think a significant number of their customers AREN'T as keen on
>    cut-price deals as you may think. Many people probably don't give a
>    toss if they could buy a similar unit after a two+ week wait from a
>    guy they haven't seen for a bit less.
Maybe we should have a note where noters can put in what new equipment
they purchased ever, where they first saw it, where they bought it and
why, to see if we can get a ratio of showroom seen/MO buy .vs. showroom
seen and bought.  This is an integral part for this discussion.  I've
written note 2004 to get this ratio, please enter the information there
and discussion will continue here.


RE: < Note 1783.31 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Conliberative" >
>                     -< If that's true, why blame Roland? >-
>
>>    re: .30
>>    
>>    I think a significant number of their customers AREN'T as keen on
>>    cut-price deals as you may think.
>    If that's true, then the blame is on the showrooms, NOT Roland.
>    
>    Roland is merely reacting to pressure that the showrooms are
>    putting on them.
I see this as the drip of milk I describe above and that any pro line
dropped by one dealer will be gladly picked up by another.

Dan

    I don't know of any other manufacturer who feels they have to resort
    to price-fixing to keep their dealers.  Alesis, Oberheim, Ensoniq,
    even Y* manage quite well in a Free Market system - where you pay
    for what you get.  
    
    This includes things like in-store advise, expertise, and service
    for those who "bought local", and the uncertainty of MO for those
    who MO.  For Roland, doesn't this include access to their in-store
    sample library IF you bought the sampler at that particular store?  
           
    Roland's quench on MO seems to be a sad commentary on how good they
    think their sample library really is (i.e. worthless).  Or is it
    a commentary on how well local stores can help users on Rolandish
    questions (again, worthless)... or ability to service in-house (again,
    worthless.)
    
    If Roland refuses to try playing by the free-market game, they can 
    pick up and go home.
           
    	-IMHO
    	Bill

Brad brought up a good point.  Pro music dealers aren't as numerous as
Chevy dealers.  Not everyone can  regularly visit a showroom.  What are these
people to do?  I know that if Daddy's wasn't around the corner I probably would 
have bought my stuff MO.  I look for convience.  I don't want to drive to
Worcester, Framigham, or even Acton regularly to play with the newest toys.
And I visit a store a million (slight exageration) times before I buy.  These
visits are important.

Chad

>    Roland's quench on MO seems to be a sad commentary on how good they
>    think their sample library really is (i.e. worthless).  Or is it
>    a commentary on how well local stores can help users on Rolandish
>    questions (again, worthless)... or ability to service in-house (again,
>    worthless.)
    
    This demonstrates that you can take almost anything and cast
    whatever motives or intentions suit your argument best.
    
    Let me propose another explanation.
    
    Perhaps Roland thinks there samplers aren't as useful and thus saleable
    WITHOUT showrooms providing access to the library.  Perhaps Roland
    feels that if you can't go down to Daddy's or EU's to get whatever
    samples you need, that you WON'T buy the sampler, even from MO.
    
    	db

    To Chad and Brad,
    
    No one questions the validity of MO.  Certainly not I.
    
    My whole point is that it's hard to identify any clear villains
    in this (MO, retailers, Roland, etc.)
    
    	db
    
    p.s.  BTW Chad, where did you buy your R-8 again?  ;-)

            <<< Note 1783.35 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Conliberative" >>>
        -< It's a "sad commentary" on the ability to invent "motives" >-

>    Let me propose another explanation.
    
>    Perhaps Roland thinks there samplers aren't as useful and thus saleable
>    WITHOUT showrooms providing access to the library.  Perhaps Roland
>    feels that if you can't go down to Daddy's or EU's to get whatever
>    samples you need, that you WON'T buy the sampler, even from MO.

Both Thoroughbred and Caruso's will send you the sampler libraries to copy
if you MO you're keyboard. Daddy's typically doesn't even have the S50/S550
library in any given store (as you and I know). I don't think this theory
holds water.

dave

And what if Daddy's *is* just around the corner, but you want to buy something
made by Yamaha, which they don't carry?

    Dave,
    
    First of all, you missed the context of my note.  Bill was ascribing
    negative motives to something he observed.  I was merely demonstrating
    that you can just as easily ascribe positive motives, and in fact,
    in this context, the positive motives are far more likely.
    
    Daddy's is bad about those libraries.  I've talked (i.e., "complained
    to") to Chuck Vandeman of Roland and Daddy's and they have promised to
    correct that.  Turns out the Peabody store is run by a really sharp
    guy and HIS store has always had the entire library and a very
    organized filing system for it.
    
    However, I'd point out that I don't want to spend the bucks for
    floppies to retain my own personal copies of the ENTIRE Roland library.
    I do have about 40 disks, but several times I have gone into Daddy's
    and said "got any good Shakaguchi samples", and copied what I needed.
    
    You certainly can't convince me that MO can offer all the conveniences that
    local stores do in terms of support.  Their advantage is price, and
    their price advantage comes mainly from the fact that they don't have
    to provide support.
    
    	db

>    I buy *all* my gear mail
>    order ... and most of it as a result of opinions/recommedations
>    expressed in this conference. 
    
    This only means that you don't directly benefit from show rooms.
    
    On the other hand, if one thing is clear from the "poll" in 2004
    it's that most of the people who you are listening to DO depend
    on showrooms.
    
    Perhaps one compromise is not to sell to places that ONLY do MO,
    and thus have an unfair advantage over the showrooms.  Believe
    me, despite what you may think I am a big-time believer in competition.
    But there is no "competition" on an unlevel playing field.
    
    	db

    re: .26 Ditto while there are  a few dealers near me, the largest
    is a korg/akai dealer, the others carry Y* and R* gear but do not
    stock hardly anything, their attitude is buy it and I'll get it
    in here for you...they also never deal, at all...I buy MO, almost
    exclusively now, it's cheaper and considerably easier than driving
    an hour and a hlf to find out that the dealer didn't have x-widget
    in stock like they said they did on the phone...
              
    a great example is the ADA MP-1 the only one I could fidn for the
    first 10 months after it was announced was broken, and the dealer
    still had the same unit, still as yet returned for repairs sitting
    in the box on the showroom floor....funny they closed not long after
    too...                               
    
    dbii
    
    

    re: .29 I don't buy the argument primarily because if Roland's gear
    is so wonderful (debatable but that's a different rathole) then
    customer demand is going to force the dealers to continue to stock
    that gear. Not everyone will buy MO so there is still a market,
    and if people want to buy it Roland will sell it.
    
    IMHO,, Roland is a cheezy company that makes good (not great)
    equipment.
    
    dbii

    On last point teh MO house that is most frequently used by COMMUSICIANS
    I believe to be Profound and they are a showroom also, as is East
    Coast sound, as is Sam Ash, as is Thoroughbred as is.....
    
    sounds like the complaint is from those stores that 1. won't discount
    and 2. don't mail order in addition to their showroom business...
    
    it's their problem not Roland's
    
    dbii

RE: db

> Where did you buy your R-8? ;-)
(or some such line)

Like I mentioned in 2004.? (which I don't take as a valid poll, really as
another note to "brag" about your stuff" :-) :-) :-)
I got my R-8 from my ex-showroom store I used to frequent as a showing of
thankfulness for their support for me before I had the moneyto get into
this hobby.  Though it was delivered via normal mail-order style means, it
doesn't follow the normal mail-order method.  And I didn't spend a lot of
Daddy's time test-driving it either.  I would have 95% gotten it there at
Daddy's if I wasn't getting it from my friends.  Almost everything I have
comes from Daddy's and probably will (unless they don't carry it - then I'll
probably MO it) in the future.  Besides being around the corner, I agree with
supporting the local merchant and also in receiving support and "good deals".
MO is important though as it is useful to know what some of the more lower
prices are before negotiating a deal.  That doesn't mean you use it as
specific leverage as in "XYZ will sell it to me for  555, what about you?"
Just so you know what is near bottom.

:-)
:-)
:-)


Chad

    
    
    Reading through the previous brings me to a couple of conclusions.
    When buying equipment of the sort we are talking i.e. High Tech,
    Large Investments, Potential for problems etc.. There is more to
    buying a piece of this gear than getting th hottest deal,, There
    is the issue of long term support, there is the understanding you
    get when a dealer knows you, knows your set-up, knows what you can
    afford, trusts you..
    
    I am fortunate, I have a relationship of this sort with my dealer.
    He knows he can rely on my custom, I get help, I get support, I
    get loan gear if mine breaks I get new stuff to try out at home
    to ensure that I buy things that will work in my environment. This
    has taken some effort from both parties. However he is a small dealer
    with an extremely large turnover given the size of his premises.
    He has acheieved this by fostering relationships of this sort with
    a few of his customer's. He gets and demands a similar service from
    his suppliers. (The only stuff he doesn't carry is ENSONIQ and EMU).
    
    I know that the manfacturers (IN THE UK) go out of their way to
    support this type of dealer provided they can turn round the hardware.
    
    If onyl cause they will fend of 95% of user queries. Seems to make
    customer sense and business sense to me.

    
    
    
    
    
    
    They're probably going to refer you back to your dealer, but the main
    Roland number in L.A. is (213) 685-5141.
    
    
    
    
    
    

Sorry I'm adding the the confusion here...I asked for Roland's number, but
then realized I had done a reply here rather than a new topic as I intended.
I deleted my note, but it had already been answered.

Anyway, thanks!  I wanted get a a new ROM for my D110, and that number did
it.  Tech support sent me to service who is mailing me an update.

Burns