Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Sounds like a good idea.  It's a good way to get the classic synth
    sounds without buying (and coping with) the "classic" synth
    idiosyncracies (like tuning drift, unroadability, monophonic-only, etc).
    
    You could even get a theremin that plays in tune!
    
    	-Bill
    

    You run into a problem with "sculptured" sounds, though (to quote Bill
    Y.).  Sounds that tend to travel a great deal (such as modulated osc
    analog patches or long filter sweeps) will be very hard to sample
    accurately, because they travel so much within the patch. 

    Your ability to reproduce the sound will be limited by the ability
    of the sampler to provide similar functions (eg, filter).

-b

    Gee, didn't we just have a note like this a month or so ago???
    Oh well, such is COMMUSIC::...
    
    Anyhow, yeah it's entirely possible, but I've never found it to
    work all that well in practice. Any time based or fixed pitch
    function doesn't translate well. (Ex: The 'tine' sound of an
    FM Rhodes should NOT go up in pitch as you move to the right
    of the keyboard. On a sampler it will...)
    
    Time based functions, like a filter opening up, or a slow modulator
    attack in FM, also don't port well.
    
    Static sounds translate quite well.
    
    I bought my sampler for just this purpose over 2 years ago. The
    number of times I've actually done it has been negligible. It's
    not that easy...
    
    Edd
    

    If you multi-sample, don't vary the pitch too much, sample for
    sufficient duration and so forth the sampler can emulate other instruments
    rather well.  But, I think the best approach is not to (in my case
    and as an example) turn my S-10 into a D-50, but rather to use a D-50 
    sound to make the S-10 sound D-50'ish.  Using a sampler to just
    copy sounds limits its capabilities.  It's better to view it as
    a complementary technology rather than a replacement for other
    instruments. 
    
    Steve

    I'll be facing this soon (I hope).
    
    I'm mostly familiar with classic analog synth architectures 
    (y'know with oscillators, envelopes, LFO's, Filters, etc.) and
    digital reproductions of such (ESQ-1, etc.).
    
    I know that if I wanted to replicate ESQ-1 sounds productively, I'd
    really have to analyze the patch itself.  I look at the sampler I'm
    planning to get (Roland S-550 or S-330) as being a sorta strip-down
    version of the ESQ-1 (architecturally), but with user-loadable
    wave forms.
    
    I think the real game is trying to figure out what to sample out
    right, and what to try and emulate using the samplers builtin
    modulators and such.
    
    For example, most of the organ patches on my ESQ wouldn't require
    much sampling memory cause the modulation of the basic wave forms
    is pretty simple.
    
    On the other hand, trying to get a sculptured sound (like "Lunar
    landing") is probably best done by just burning up sample memory.
    
    	db

	When I do get my sampler, its prime use will be that of complementary
	architecture.  It will be used for percussion, strings, and just
	about anything else in companion with my synths.  It will have no
	set purpose but rather each new piece it is used in will have 
	different demands to place on it.  Sometimes, I might just need
	that extra synth sound without any voices left, and I hope that
	the sampler could fill in there too.

	So, as I am not that intimately familiar with the various
	'pro'-samplers, which ones (I am partial to Roland at the moment)
	allow the various tweekings etc afterwards (above and beyond
	the norm) that would allow such after sample work on the sample
	as  db  mentioned.

	Chad

    re .6, which samplers have good 'analog' controls..
    
    I've found the E-mu Systems' Emax sampler has superb analog functions.
    The filter is superb.  Also, the Emax allows any MIDI controller
    to map to any analog parameter.  Just great for replicating that
    old Moog filter sweep.
    
    karl

    
    re: .-2
    
      The Ensoniq EPS has 2 filters, essentially allowing you to build
    yourself a multimode filter. Each filter can be either a 3 pole
    or a 4 pole, LP or HP. Adjustable Q, of course, and modulatable
    from either the controllers, the keyboard tracking, or a combination
    of any two (per filter). The filter is part of an instrument, and
    you have eight instruments available in the EPS, so that's really
    an implementation with 16 configurable filters. Not bad at all.
    
      You also get three 5-step EGs per voice, one (!) LFO, the wheel,
    the mod wheel, and the polyphonic AT as sources.
    
    /pjh

    Can you modulate the Q of the EPS filter?  There are some wonderful
    Moog effects based on that.
    	
    	-Bill (who_misses_that_feature_on_his_ESQ_1)

    
    I don't think you can modulate the Q... I haven't seen modulatable
    Q since the ARP 2500's multimode VCF...or the Moog 15...
    
    /pjh_who's_waxing_nostalgic_again

    re:  .9
    
    The "classic" MiniMoog filter sweep was done by modulating the base
    frequency of the filter (which the ESQ-1 can do), not the Q.  I'd 
    imagine that modulating the Q would be somewhat like modulating 
    the DCO of a 4th modulator tuned to the base frequency of the filter..
    
    	db

    The particular sound I was thinking of is on a micro or polymoog,
    but requires manual intervention to play with the filter resonance
    while playing.  
    
    Unfortunately, once a note starts on an ESQ, it doesn't update from
    the programming displays.  Too bad...
    

    
    well *I* knew what Bill meant, and yes, there were a couple of advanced
    dinosaurs (there's an oxymoron for yuh) that had it. Amazing what
    they did with op-amps in the '70's ;^)
    
    Yeah, the ESQ doesn't even have real-time updating. 
    
    /pjh

    Re: filteer mod on moogs
    
    you can get great movement in the sound by modulating the filter
    cutoff with the pressure sense on a multimoog.
    
    Richard.

< Note 1519.14 by MARVIN::MACHIN >
>    Re: filteer mod on moogs
>    you can get great movement in the sound by modulating the filter
>    cutoff with the pressure sense on a multimoog.

    .. or by mapping the KX88 aftertouch to filter cutoff ..

    Re: KX88 after to filter cutoff
    
    Hate to be a Luddite, but is the KX aftertouch analogue? If not,
    it's a bit like 'Pick a card -- any card as long as it's a diamond'...
    
    Richard.

    < Note 1519.16 by MARVIN::MACHIN >
>    Re: KX88 after to filter cutoff
>    Hate to be a Luddite, but is the KX aftertouch analogue? If not,
>    it's a bit like 'Pick a card -- any card as long as it's a diamond'...

    Uh, no, Richard, no parameter that is xmitted across MIDI can be
    analog (unless it's the MIDI sync tone?).. aftertouch from the KX
    series is a specific controller # that is scanned quite often (don't
    know the rate) by the keyboard.  Since it tends to flood the MIDI
    data stream (and fill up sequencer memory rapidly) I usually have
    it turned OFF at the KX88.  I just felt I needed to remind you that
    you don't necessarily lose by going MIDI..
    
    karl

    That's my point -- there aren't enough values available in midi
    to 'reproduce' the responsiveness of an analogue pressure device.
    
    Try sticking volume on aftertouch via midi and the problem is painfully
    apparent; on filter mod, maybe it's not so immediately inconvenient.
    I think this is one example where you definitely DO lose going midi.
    A midi'd aftertouch can NEVER sound/play as good as its analogue
    partner, no matter what. With advances in local net design in the
    pipeline, midi must soon have had its day for professional musos.
    
    Richard.

    I'm not sure I buy this.  There are 127 values available for
    aftertouch.  Perhaps some synths don't respond to all of them,
    but that's not MIDI's fault.  I doubt any human being has sufficient
    muscle control to even get close to this degree of resolution.
    I have after touch on my three main synths (MKS-80, JX-10 and D-550)
    and I've never heard any "granularity" on any aftertouch use,
    volume or filter.
    
    This sounds like a rehash of the "digital is inherently bad, because
    the world is analog" argument.
                     
    len.
    

    Not all aftertouch systems can send all 127 values.  My understanding
    of the poly-aftertouch on an EPS is that it only sends eight
    values ( * correction requested !), which is fine for loudness
    control, OK for filter opening, but inadequate for any but microtonal
    pitch-bending.
    
    The 127 value limitation is not a big problem unless you also feel
    that your pitch-bend and modulation wheels are inadequately resolved.
    
    	-Bill

    Yup, I certainly had problems with after used in these ways on a
    DX7.
    
    Horrible noise. 
    
    Yuch.
    
    Richard.

    Can't speak as an owner, but I *played* an EPS that used a/t as
    pitch-bend, and it worked perfectly, with NO granularity whatsoever. 

    The only unit I know that "works with 8 levels" is the HR-16 (although
    it responds to 32 via MIDI).

>analog/digital arguments

    Len stated my opinion perfectly.  Hey, if you want to get real picky
    about it, patch memories on all major analog synths (JX, OB-X,
    MemoryMoog) are stored digitally.

    Avoid digital - buy a piano.  (insert appropriate smiley face)

-b

    re: Avoid digital - buy a piano.
    
    Absolutely. Don't even *think* of buying anything with a MIDI
    interface. I bought an RD-300 (see note elsewhere). If I had
    only bought a standard acoustic piano, I would not now be the
    owner of an Alesis Sequencer and a Roland D-110 synth module.
    Digital vs Analog aside, something about those empty MIDI
    sockets makes you want to go out and fill them with yet more
    expensive toys. Now I have all this stuff, and no money.
    
    If that isn't enough, I walk around work all day with this wierd
    sh*t-eating grin on my face, dreaming about all the fantastic
    sounds I can now make. Terribly distracting. That and the fact
    that I walk about two feet above the carpet for hours after
    a session at the keyboard.
    
    So absolutely avoid this digital stuff. It's just too much fun!
    
    -chuck_who_can't_believe_the_LK201_doesn't_have_orchestra_hit