Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    I've done something like this.  My RD-300 generates MIDI volume
    data that I just record with the ESQ-1 sequencer.
    
    In other words,
    
    1) I record the basic track
    
    2) I record another track that contains nothing but MIDI volume
       data that I generate using the external volume sliders on my
       RD-300.
    
    3) I keep doing takes of the second (MIDI volume) track until I get 
       it right, then I merge the two tracks.  I believe I can even
       remove the volume information if I need to via MIDI filtering
       but I haven't had to.
    
    I made this experiment once a long time ago because I needed an
    ADSR that I couldn't possibly program into the ESQ-1.  I haven't
    actually tried doing this as a MIDI-mixing application, but I suppose
    if you've got enough memory in your sequencer (and all your stuff
    understands MIDI volume) you could use it that way.
    
    	db

    .0's personal name: You couldn't possibly be a Residents fan,
    Karl?  What with the Joe Satriani recommendation, this could spoil
    your terminally mellow image.  Seeing your liner notes for COMMUSIC
    IV is saddening in this context--I'd have liked to hear the more
    challenging stuff--but I'm looking forward to the stuff you sent
    in!
    
    	Eirikur
    

    re .0 - yes, that's what the Iota Systems MIDIFader does.  It's
    not limited to tracking controller 7, though, you can tell it to
    track *any* controller.  It also accepts velocity based inputs as
    well.  From the reviews I have read on the unit, the latter is
    preferable, because the controller based inputs generate a just
    barely audible click that can result in a "zipper" effect during 
    crescendos.  It is 8 channels wide.
    
    Incidentally, I seem to have the opposite view from you regarding
    where dynamics should be controlled; with a few exceptions, I generally
    prefer to control volume at the source rather than to "fix it in
    the mix" at the board.  There are some advantages to laying down
    tracks at constant/maximum volume and then adjusting relative levels
    at mixdown time (e.g., optimal signal to noise ratio, opportunity
    to reconsider levels without having to rerecord (perhaps after editing)
    tracks, etc.).  Partly this reflects my laziness - it means you
    have to carefully "score" the mix (i.e., write down all the cues
    and fader movements), and you have to be pretty nimble with your
    fingers in real time.  Being basically a died in the wool step time
    guy, this is of course anathema to me.  However, a MIDIFader would
    very nicely address these issues.  So, one is on my list of "got
    to get soon" toys.
    
    I'll echo Eirikur's remark about your COMMUSIC IV submissions,
    which I've actually heard (Dave gave me a copy of the tape so I
    could serve as a secondary distribution point).  Nice of you to
    be so condescending.
                                         
    len.
    

    Thanks to the little birdie who pointed out the correct spelling
    is "dyed in the wool", before anyone had a chance to publicly
    (see, I learn) humiliate me.
    
    len.
    

   RE.0 
    
    Karl I know you have a KX88. Why not do as I do, which is basically
    the same as Dave, and use the Swell/Volume pedale to record the
    volume control track after the event. I have always found this to
    be a reasonable and workable approach.
       

    Erikur, that's a James Brown title..
    
    re my 'condescending' to the noters re my choice of material to
    present.. why be deliberately obscure ? .. others do it so well..
    
    Re the MIDImix dilemma.. I DO use separate sequencer trax for volume
    info.. it's just that with 4-6 separate parts emerging from one
    SGU, it's a major drag trying to balance them, and it (the mixing)
    is NEVER real-time.
    
    Guess I'll go find some reviews of the IOTA MIDIfader thingie.
    Thanx for your input !
    
    karl    
    

RE < Note 1189.6 by CANYON::MOELLER "It's a (man's,(man's,(man's))) world" >

>    Re the MIDImix dilemma.. I DO use separate sequencer trax for volume
>    info.. it's just that with 4-6 separate parts emerging from one
>    SGU, it's a major drag trying to balance them, and it (the mixing)
>    is NEVER real-time.

	Why isn't it in real time?  Won't your sequencer accept midi volume data
in real-time?

	I've started using MIDI volume on the 'SGUs' that understand it - 
		1) sequence parts (in either real or step time or both)
		2) over-dub volume data while listening to entire sequence
I use the slider on the RD200, and it seems to me as easy as pie.  Am I missing
something in your situation, Karl?

	Dan

>I use the slider on the RD200, and it seems to me as easy as pie.  Am I missing
>something in your situation, Karl?

    I guess so.. to me, 'mixing' means being able to adjust the relative
    volumes of MULTIPLE instruments at one time. Using my footpedal
    sending #07 info, I can alter ONE instrument's volume per playback.
    Yes, that's 'realtime' one instrument at a time..
    
    I guess that isn't 'mixing' to me !
    
    karl

    re .8 -
    
    But that's what overdubs are for - doing many things in realtime,
    but one at a time.  Why do it the old hard way?
    
    len.
    
                                                        

Check out the Simmons MIDI mixer too.  Reviewed in "Keyboard" about 6 months
ago or so (along with other MIDI mixers I believe)...

Todd.

    The AKAI and Simmons MIDI mixers are kinda passive, in that they
    will respond to MIDI controller data and patch changes coming from
    a sequencer. I can do that now.
    
    It seems that only the Yamaha DMP-7 digital mixer can do what I
    seek.. that is, assign each of 8 faders to a MIDI channel and thus
    generate strings of #07 info. Of course one would then require a
    sequencer that can record these multiple MIDI channels simultaneously
    onto separate tracks, for future editing.
    
    I have better things to do with $4K plus the cost of the extra 
    sequencer, even if I did have it.
    
    karl

< Note 1189.8 by CANYON::MOELLER "It's a (man's,(man's,(man's))) world" >
>                           -< where's the faders ? >-
>    to me, 'mixing' means being able to adjust the relative
>    volumes of MULTIPLE instruments at one time. Using my footpedal
>    sending #07 info, I can alter ONE instrument's volume per playback.
>    Yes, that's 'realtime' one instrument at a time..
>    
>    I guess that isn't 'mixing' to me !

I've been doing a little thinking about this MIDI mixing stuff. I too,
would like to mix the volume of several instruments using MIDI controller #7.
Right now, I have a keyboard controller that has two sliders on it.
This allows for mixing two instruments at a time, which is ok, but not ideal.

I guess the KX76 and KX88 have four sliders, which is better.

But for those who don't have so many sliders, wouldn't it be nice to have
a "controller" which had 4-8 sliders on it for sending volume info on
separate channels (or any controller number for that matter, pan #10 included).

That is, a "controller" without the keyboard. Or you could think of it as
a MIDI-mixer without the audio attenuators.

This could be an "add-on" for keyboard controllers with few sliders, in which
case a merge input would be nice, although an A/B switch would probably
suffice.

Has anyone ever seen anything like this? Thought about building one?

Wouldn't this do away with the need for MIDI mixers (for electronic music,
not acoustic)? Would this solve the problem that Karl posed a few notes back?

/Mitch

     I'm glad SOMEONE else is still pondering this.. with 32 sampled
     voices available to me, (Kurzweil 1000PX,24v, and Emax, 8v), coming
    out into two stereo lines, I need some help! 
    
    But one idea of yours, Mitch, just won't fly.. though the KX88/76
    do/does have four assignable sliders, they cannot all be assigned
    to #7 on 4 MIDI channels, because the KXes only xmit on TWO channels
    at once.. 
    
    back to your 8-slider device.. see my comment from .11... reproduced
    here for your redundant reading redundancy..    
>< Note 1189.11 by CANYON::MOELLER "welcome to acronym hell" >
>    It seems that only the Yamaha DMP-7 digital mixer can do what I
>    seek.. that is, assign each of 8 faders to a MIDI channel and thus
>    generate strings of #07 info. 
    
    .. in the intervening months, have any COMMUSIKers invested a hefty
    $4K in the Yamaha DMP-7 ??  Was I misreading the various reviews
    of this device ??
    
    karl

>    back to your 8-slider device.. see my comment from .11... reproduced
>    here for your redundant reading redundancy..    
>>< Note 1189.11 by CANYON::MOELLER "welcome to acronym hell" >
>>    It seems that only the Yamaha DMP-7 digital mixer can do what I
>>    seek.. that is, assign each of 8 faders to a MIDI channel and thus
>>    generate strings of #07 info. 

But Karl, the difference is that the device I described doesn't need ANY
audio paths (let alone the digital audio paths of the DMP-7). My approach
relies only on the SGUs responding to MIDI volume. The device I'm talking 
about should be real cheap.

Basically, who needs audio attenuators?  Why not rely on MIDI volume change
messages?

4-8 sliders, generating volume (or pan) info on 4-8 MIDI channels to be
recorded onto a MIDI sequencer (which should be able to separate out the
info by channel # for subsequent editing).

I want one of these.

/Mitch

    Well, Mitch, it seems we're vehemently agreeing.  If you read my
    comment one more time on the DMP-7, 
>>    It seems that only the Yamaha DMP-7 digital mixer can do what I
>>    seek.. that is, assign each of 8 faders to a MIDI channel and thus
>>    generate strings of #07 info. 

    .. then you'll agree I'm NOT talking about separate AUDIO paths
    here, but rather using the faders differently, to generate controller
    #07, MIDI volume, which can be recorded by a sequencer and even
    edited later..  
    
    Of course, if my SGU's had separate audio (the Emax does) outs I
    wouldn't have these problems, except of course I WOULD, because
    the Emax DYNAMICALLY ASSIGNS the notes to the 8 available separate
    audio outs.. pretty useless to set up a hot gated snare channel
    on the mixer if the snare sound bounces around from output to output.

    No, using 'faders' to record MIDI volume for each of 8 MIDI channels
    is the way to go.  some of the confusion arises from the fact that
    a box like the Kurzweil 1000PX with 24-voice polyphony, has all of those
    sounds coming out, supposedly pre-mixed via MIDI volume, thru stereo
    outputs.  Which is where we came in..
    
    karl

>    Well, Mitch, it seems we're vehemently agreeing.

Great. So how much would you pay for the 'Slide Controller'?

I'd pay $100-$200 (depending on how good the user-interface is) for 4 channels,
each with two sliders which transmit
controller change info when moved, and the unit should have a "snapshot"
button which, when pushed, sends a snapshot of all the slider values.
The unit should be a table top thing about 6" x 6" or so.

/Mitch

  >  Basically, who needs audio attenuators?  Why not rely on MIDI volume change
  > messages?
    
    For digital synths, relying on MIDI volume can seriously compromise
    the sound quality.  At low volume levels, quantization noise will rear
    its ugly head. 
    
    For analog synths, response to MIDI volume consists of adjusting
    an analog attenuator anyway.
    
    Steph

< Note 1189.0 by CANYON::MOELLER "It's a (man's,(man's,(man's))) world" >
>            -< Recommendation - Alternatives For Mixing Using MIDI >-

>Using my Emax and Fb01, using stereo outs only into the mixer, my 
>method for balancing the various sequenced parts is by inserting a 
>controller 07 value in each track at bar 1 beat 1 tick 1 (1/0/0). 
>This is okay in a sense, it allows a crude volume adjust for the 
>multiple timbres coming out of one SGU.. however, when into the 
>body of the piece, it's extremely frustrating to continue the 
>fading/mixing nuances that by rights happen with mixer faders. 

>My wish.. a mixer-like device with a minimum of 8 faders, each assigned
>to its own MIDI channel, generating controller 07 info, which then
>gets recorded onto the sequencer.. then of course the data would need
>to be editable.
    
    See ? If I wait long enough someone will fulfil my every wish.
    Page 19 of the July '89 Electronic Musician has a full page ad for:
    
    FaderMaster from J.L. Cooper. 
    
    8 faders on a mixer-like base, completely assignable to any continuous 
    controller on up to 8 MIDI channels at once.. my dream come true - 
    8 channels of cc#7 info.. and if its data were merged with the MIDI 
    data coming from the sequencer, I could save the sequencer storage 
    space.. of course that would prevent me from perfectly replicating 
    the mix later.
    
    suggested price $299.  I'd like to get one.
    
    karl

	Thank you, Brad, for forcing keywords on us. I found this note instead
	of starting another. (I *thought* I remembered this discussion!)

	Anyway, yeah, CC 7 is the way to go, it would seem. Now if I could
	only get CC 7 to come out of any of my controllers. It turns out that
	the EPS doesn't allow one to remap the actual controller number of
	either the PB, mod, or data entry pots. CC 7 is sensed from the 
	"optional whiz-bang volume pedal" and of course *that* can be mapped
	to either 4 or 7. Thanks, Ensoniq. To their credit, at least they
	published the spec for the CV pedal.

	So I could spend $10 in parts and make a nice one-slider 0-9V 
	"CV pedal" that could sit on my desk next to the sequencer, or
	invest $300 in that JLCooper thingie Karl referred to in .-1. 

	The human factors issue is really evident (so is the dollar cost).
	The intent is to create separate tracks of controller (actually CC 7)
	data separate from the key data in the KCS track mode. The problem
	would be doing one channel per pass - as Karl said, that ain't mixing,
	and I suspect the amount of changes needed to balance during each
	pass through the piece would make a mess-o-CC7s. 

	So what are people doing this year? Does anybody actually own a
	multichannel fader/controller? Does it do other control events? 

	/pjh

    Paul,  I never bought the JL Cooper MIDIfader (FADERmaster?) thing
    because :  I would assign each slider to a specific MIDI channel, and
    have it generate CC7 - except my version of Performer for the MAC will
    only RECORD one MIDI channel at a time !  
    
    So for now I'm doing it the same old way - inserting ONE CC7 message at
    the beginning of each Performer track in order to set up relative
    instrument volumes.  Actually, I only insert a CC7 value if I want to
    REDUCE the overall volume of an instrument.  For multisampled
    'instruments', like a drum kit on the Emax, I have to play with the
    VELOCITY of the individual parts, like Hihat or snare, because all the
    drum tracks respond to the same MIDI channel.
    
    Gee, isn't working with Stone Age equipment a drag ? (wink)
    
    karl

A plug for Notator.

Notator has what is called RMG -- REaltime Midi Generator. It is a screen
with 16 sliders (1 for each channel) that can transmit anything you want.
You can also record or just use without recording.  You can do a lot of this
type of stuff with it.  I have only furzed around with it.

Chad

	re: .-2 (karl)

		Ah. KCS lets you record multiple channels, although they all get
	merged to one track (you can separate them (actually SPLIT) afterwards).

	So I went down to Advance Music and whattaya know, they had one 
	JLCooper FaderMaster in stock, for $255. Since it was my birthday,
	and I haven't bought any MIDItoys since who knows when (spring
	I think), I bought one. Review will be in another topic, but the
	teaser is that the Fadermaster does a LOT more than just CC 7.

    
>>    Gee, isn't working with Stone Age equipment a drag ? (wink)

	yeah, wink wink, nudge nudge, life's a real bitch when you're working
	with such backwards stuff...

 	re: .-1 

	Yeah, if I wasn't already married to Dr. T's, I'd have taken a harder
	look at Notator - plus the Doctor put out some software version of
	the same thing, sort of - but I didn't buy that either. I like
	real sliders too.


	And I got called something I never was called before yesterday. The guy
	I get much of my stuff from (and haven't seen in a while) called me
	a "power user"... Is that a compliment? In the context, it seemed
	like that's what he meant, I mean he said he didn't know too many
	people like that. Bzzt.

	/pjh

    > review of JLC Fader Master.
    
    I'm VERY interested in a review. I want one.
    
    > "power user"
    
    Yuppie speak. Were you wearing a yellow tie with small blue dots?
    Please, please, please, don't let him call you that. Let's keep
    the Volvo crowd outta MIDI... ;^)
    
    Edd

Well, almost a year after this MIDI mixing topic tailed off, I was reminded of
it last weekend when talking to the owner of a southern NH music store.

It appears that Kawai is supposed to release a new MIDI Mixer product called the
MM-16 at the Winter NAMM (it it hasn't already).  From a photocopy of the spec
sheet comes the following information:

"MM-16 MIDI Mixer    (hand-scribbled note: suugested retail price $299.95US)

 The Kawai MM-16 MIDI mixer is a multi-purpose MIDI data processor.  With 17
front panel faders, it's [sic] most obvious capability is that of a 16 channel
mixing console.  But the MM-16 contains many other useful features including
MIDI merge/split, spillover, patch editing via system exclusive commands and
more.

 MEGA MIX - As a mixing console for MIDI instrumentsm the MM-16 enables indiv-
idual fader control of MIDI volume for each of the 16 MIDI channels plus a
master volume control.

 CONTINUOUS CONTROL - In Controller mode, the MM-16 gives you front panel access
to all MIDI controller functions such as modulation, expression, breath control,
portamento, pan, chorus, etc.
 In Velocity mode, the 16 faders become a "graphic eq" for veolcity data, so you
can re-voice any instrument across the keyboard.  This is useful for fine-tuning
a mix or smoothing out uneven multi-samples.

 PROGRAMMING PAL - As a synthesizer programmer, the MM-16 gives immediate 
control over synthesizer parameters via system exclusive data.  The MM-16 comes
setup for many popular instruments such as the K4, K1, K5, D-50, and DX-7. 
Users can also create custom programs and save them via Sys-Ex data dump to a
MIDI data filer such as the Kawai Q-80.

 MERGER MANIA - As a merging/splitting device, the MM-16 enables two devices
such as a keyboard and sequencer to be selectively merged into the same MIDI
cable.  The MM-16 will also split a MIDI signal into two, separating them by
MIDI channel, Key number, Velocity level, or alternate between the two outputs
to create spillover.  The channelizing function will also change MIDI channels.

 MEMORY MAPPING - The MM-16 also contains 64 Setup Program Memories, which
remember Volume, Program, and Channelizing"

Although there is no picture, I think this will be a table top unit similar
to the Lexicon MRC and JLCooper FaderMaster.

Just thought you might be interested,

- John -

My review of the MM-16...

The Kawai  MM-16 is a MIDI message generator and does some amount of MIDI
message processing. ~$270 at an EU Wurlies near you.

No programmable buttons.

16 sliders, but these are not "general purpose".
The use of these sliders is "modal"...

Mixer Mode:    16  sliders send MIDI volume on channels 1-16.  Fixed - no
    adjustable ranges, no changes to the channels assigned to each fader,
    no  changing  the  controller  numbers,  no  grouping, etc.

Controller Mode:  16  sliders  send  16 different factory defined (fixed)
    controllers on ONE channel.   You  can  select  the channel with some
    button presses, but all goes out  on  ONE  channel.   No changing the
    controller numbers.  Controllers include volume, pan,  balance,  foot
    controller, breath controller, expression, portamento, program change
    (zat a controller?), and others.

SysEx Mode:  16 sliders send out SysEx  messages with variable parameters
    There  are  16  factory defined "setups" (12 fixed, 4  programmable).
    Each setup defines sysex header info and parameter numbers.   All  16
    setups are  pre-programmed for Kawai synths (No D-50, No DX-7, etc.).
    The 4 programmable setups can  be  overwritten with your own manually
    input  sysex/parameter  setups,  which  can    be    dumped    to   a
    computer/sequencer  and  back.  I won't say  anything  more  since  I
    haven't used this mode yet. This paragraph is subject to error.

Velocity Mode:  Interesting, but it will be  a  long  time  before I find
    myself experimenting with this.

In  addition  to  the sliders described above, the unit has  a  few  neat
features:

o panic button sends out "all notes off", "reset bender", etc.

o 17th slider acts as master volume by sending out volume messages on all
  16 channels at once  -  It provides the result you would expect, though
  it's kind of hard to explain how...The range for each channel is set by
  that channel's slider's current position, so moving the  master  slider
  from top to bottom and back effectively moves all  of the other sliders
  from their current positions down to 0 and back.  Not sure what happens
  in all the different scenarios of moving different sliders in different
  orders.

o "Send  Faders" button sends a snapshot of faders (volume messages only,
  while  in  MIDI  Mixer mode).  This is a  very  important  feature  for
  initializing the mix at the start of a sequence.

o The unit merges  TWO  MIDI  inputs with eachother and with the sliders.
  Also can split a MIDI  stream  onto  individual  MIDI outputs (of which
  there are 2) according to odd/even note numbers, velocity switch point,
  and maybe some others.  I won't have  a  use  for  splitting,  but I am
  definitely already using the two input merge.

o 64 "Patches" which store a MIDI volume value and a program change value
  for  each of 16 channels.  Each patch can be called up  via  a  program
  change  message received at the unit's MIDI input.  I won't have a  use
  for this feature.

It's a great set of 16 sliders.  They look and feel good.  It's compact.
However,  I  really  would  like  to write a program on my computer which
would map these sliders to more flexible functions, such as...

o send pan messages on all 16 channels
o send pan on 8 channels and volume on the other 8.
o send volume on 8 and program changes on the other 8.
ad infinitum...

Also, there  is  no  built  in  "thinning"  mechanism, so if you move the
sliders fast and far while  in  volume  mode and your SGU is playing (ie.
normal mixing mode) the results can  be  messy.  I've experienced "jumpy"
volume changes as well as stuck notes on a U-110.