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Conference napalm::commusic_v1

Title:* * Computer Music, MIDI, and Related Topics * *
Notice:Conference has been write-locked. Use new version.
Moderator:DYPSS1::SCHAFER
Created:Thu Feb 20 1986
Last Modified:Mon Aug 29 1994
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2852
Total number of notes:33157

1035.0. "Recommendations - Consumer Oriented Keyboard" by USHS01::MOFFITT () Tue Dec 01 1987 23:21

    It looks like the family Christmas present this year is going to
    be a keyboard.  Could I ask folks in this conference to make some
    recommendations to someone who has *extremely* limited knowledge
    in this arena?
    
    Principal criteria (by family caucus)
    
    5 octave (min) keyboard
    "neat" sounds (I was outvoted)
    MIDI interface -- I have a Macintosh that I hope to use eventually.
    Good feel (Subjective, huh?)
    
    Principal criterium (mine)
    
    Cost in the $800 range.
    
    Velocity sensitive keys would be nice, but aren't critical (or are
    they?)
    
    My strategy, based on what I've read in this conference, is to get
    a fairly basic but expandable keyboard with enough flexibility that
    it'll be "fun" and hence enticing to the kids.  At some future date,
    I'd eventually like to add synthesizers, as well as the Mac interface.
    
    Recommendations?  (Does this make sense?)  Thanks!
    
    Mike Moffitt
    SWS Presales, Houston
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1035.1AKOV76::EATONDPress.. Press.. Pull! (nyuk, nyuk)Wed Dec 02 1987 12:2761
	Well, by looking at your list, there's are some possibilities, but a lot
of ambiguities.   5 octave is standard.  Anything more than that will be well 
over your price range and probably be getting more into 'electronic pianos' 
rather than synths.  "Neat" sounds, well that narrows things down a bit 8^).  
If that means 'pop' sounds, as in top 40, most any synth will give you that, 
and you'll still have the flexibility to get whatever the alternative is as well
(sloppy sounds?).  MIDI interface - would we recommend anything else?  Feel,
thats indeed nothing you can ask someone else on.  Price range - $800.  More
later.  Velocity sensitive keys may be hard to find in a new keyboard in
that price range.  Do you need 'em?  I dunno.  Depending on the particular sound
I'm aiming for, I can take it or leave it.  You might be interested in knowing 
that many keyboards that do not themselves have velocity sens. are able to
recieve that information (and process it) from an external valocity sens. 
keyboard.

	Do you know the different kinds of synthesis?  FM? Analog?, PD, ect...
I have a treatise I wrote up for someone a while back that I can reprint here 
if there is a need.  It will give you a basic idea of the various flavors of
sound synthesis available.

	Here are some recommendations, based on your criteria:

	Analog:	

		Roland Alpha Juno 1 (but only 49 keys)  ~$600-$700

	FM Synthesis:

		Yamaha DX-27 or DX-21 (FM synthesis)	~$600/$800

	Come to think of it, there's not really much to recommend in new 
keyboards for less than $1000 list price.  Some shopping may help you find 
better prices on the following next-level units:

	Analog:	

		Roland Alpha Juno (61 keys)  
		Korg DW-8000
		Roland HS-60 (same as old Juno 106, but with built-in spkrs)
		OBerheim Matrix-6

	FM Synthesis:

		Korg DS-8
		Yamaha DX-7S


	Beyond these (and I'm sure others can offer more suggestions), the
next level brings in the highly touted ESQ-1.  This is the best keyboard (IMO)
for the entrance into synthesizers.  It is touch sens., multi-timbral, has
eight-track sequencer built-in, and sounds great.  Price around $1300.  More
than you wanted to spend, but you'll literally need nothing else for some time.
See other notes on this merketing wonder.

	Now if you wouldn't mind going for used equipment - a whole other
world opens up to you.  You can find just about anything you want used if you
have a good idea what something is worth, and you're willing to wait (and
watch the ads like a hawk).  Ron Ross is selling a Casio (not a toy) CZ-5000
somewhere in these notes, and I'm selling a JX8P.  Both are great keyboards.

	Dan
1035.2Reprinted from a mail response (mine)AKOV76::EATONDPress.. Press.. Pull! (nyuk, nyuk)Wed Dec 02 1987 13:1988
	Below is an explanation I gave to someone who asked for advise about
what is currently available on the synth market.  I hope it will be of help to 
you.  Others feel free to correct me as necessary.

********************************************************************************

	To have a feel for the used synth market (which, by the way, is THE
best place to look for entrance into the synth world, in my opinion), you
need to have an idea of the KIND of synth sounds you want.  Let me give
you an idea what I mean.

	There are four MAJOR types of sound synthesis out there (plus a host of
other kinds and many hybrids that bridge one or more):

	1)  Analog - This is the most well-known from years back.  With the
instruments produced by companies like Moog and Arp came sounds like those
amde popular by the recording 'Switched on Bach'.  They are produced by
votage-controlled oscillators and filters...  The sound is warm and spacious
but in the past had a tendancy to go out of tune.  Thios has since been
corrected by instruments adding Digital-stabalized oscillators.  Some sounds
most often characterised by this are 'string sections' and filter-sweeping
leads and resonant basses.  The programming is very simple to learn and
instruments can be found ranging from $250 to $2000.  Companies making these
are Roland, Korg, Oberheim, Akai, Ensoniq,...

	2)  FM Synthesis.  This method of sound production has been for a long
time used exclusively by Yamaha.  Only in the last year has Korg built an FM
synthesis unit.  FM synthesis uses complexe algorithms and operators arranged
in configurations to produce various timbres and modulations...  As you may
suspect, it is very difficult for a novice to try and program.  Fortunately,
many of the instruments in this category have very usable sounds already on
board and some even come in pre-set form as well (i.e, no programming 
available).  In the last three years or so, FM synthesis has flooded the
music industry via an amazing instrument calle the DX7.  Whenever you listen
to Whitney Houstan's (sp?) 'Saving all My Love For You' or most any ballad
on popular radio and you hear a bell-like piano instrument, you are hearing
FM synthesis.  Unlike analog instruments the sounds are crisp and digital.
As of yet, FM has been unable to create really 'fat' sounds like analog can, but
in its place you get clear cutting brass, bright metalic leads, etc.
Intstruments in this category range from $250 on up to $5000.

	3)  Phase distortion synthesis.  This method is used exclusively by 
Casio.  The world was shocked by Casio's first entrance into the professional 
sysnthesis market by it's own form of sound production which imposes angles
on the shape of sine waves to produce various and complex timbres.  PD is
much easier to program than FM synthesis.  It often looks a lot like programming
analog.  The sounds, though quite different from FM, are also digital, crisp, 
clear and cutting.  It is much better, though, at mellowing out than FM
synthesis, in my opinion.  PD can recreate a good electric piano, many 
orchestral instruments, and some very complex sound effects.  I've even heard
an attempt to make PD reproduce human speech.  Used prices, I've heard have gone
as low as $125 for a CZ-101 (no extras) on up to the $1000 range.  This is
definately the lowest priced category.  And you get a lot for your money.

	4)  Sampling.  This last category is still somewhat in its infancy.
Sampling is really little more than making digital recordings of sounds and
accessing them from a keyboard.  There are a lot of applications of sampling -
from drum machines on up to recreating complex sounds like those of an acoustic 
piano to 'playing' the sound of someone's voice.  Perhaps the most popular use
of sampling is the 'stuttering of the voice of Max Headroom.  THere are a number
of 'toys' out on the market that use sampling but are not MIDI connectable.
The best -selling one is made by Casio the SK-1 for about $80.  Radio Shack
has this instrument, as well, but put their own label on it.  In professional
MIDI samplers, prices range from $400 to $200,000.  Samplers can alter recorded
sounds, and some are easier to program than others.

	Well, I hope I haven't overwhelmed you with data.  Regarding your
inquiry, it's my opinion that one needs to decide what kind of sound(s) one
wants most and then look at the instruments that best fit in.  What do you
plan on using a synth for?  If it is to teach children how to produce
sounds and make interesting effects, you might do well to skip MIDI and
buy a monophonic analog for $100 or so.  I have one and let my 4-year-old
play it when I go down to practice my other instruments.  He does quite
well on it making all sorts of sounds.  If you want to have something for 
family members to learn how to play music, you probably want something that
can play more than one note at a time (polyphonic).  You will probably have to
pay at least $300 for a good instrument.  If you want to learn piano, but don't
have the room for an upright or grand, you will want something with a good
keyboard 'feel'.  This will cost considerably more, on up into the $1000
range.  You see, it's important to know your application.  Oh yes, if you
want something you can diddle with on the computer, it's important (at
least for programming's sake) that it sends MIDI system-exclusive data.  If
all you want is to have the computer play the synth, that is not needed.

	So, narrow down your interests, and I think I can point you in the
direction of some suitable electronic instruments.

	Dan (who gives looonnng answers)
1035.3CZ-1, still resonable choice?NEWVAX::BONANNORich BonannoThu Dec 10 1987 01:1517
    As another novice in this area I have thoughts along the same line
    as Mike. I am a real rusty piano player and am just looking for
    relatively cheap but interesting synthesizer to revive my music
    skills and also indulge my computer and audio interests. I have
    been following this conference and reading a bit to get up to
    speed.
    
    The CZ-1 seems interesting to me, especially since its available
    for about $650 or so. Saw a short article that suggested that
    a cheap and powerful system could be build around  a PC clone
     and a CZ-1. It could be expanded by adding a FB-01 FM synth
    module and a drum machine like a TR505.
    
    Is this resonable advice? Is it out of date? Things seem to be
    moving in this area as fast as they are in PCs.
   
	Rich
1035.4CZ a good dealHPSTEK::RHODESThu Dec 10 1987 22:229
I think you're on track, Rich.

A synth with touch and pressure sensitivity for $650 brand new is hard
to beat.  The CZ sounds great too.

I tend to keep my eye on the cheap-o priced synths with at least 
touch sensitivity (someday...)

Todd.
1035.5Good deal, but not the BEST deal...AKOV75::EATONDHe who toys with the most wins, dies.Fri Dec 11 1987 11:316
RE < Note 1035.4 by HPSTEK::RHODES >

	Sam Ash was selling the CZ-1 for $599 last summer.  The sale may still 
be on if you want to catch it.  1-800-4-SAMASH.

	Dan
1035.6UFP::LARUEJeff LaRue - MAA Senior Network ConsultantTue Dec 15 1987 20:0711
    Rich,
    
    Also, you might want to keep an eye on the Washington Post
    classifieds... I'm always seeing various synthesizers, etc. for
    sale at really good prices.

    As for as store purchases go....I've found Chuck Levin's (Washington
    Music Center) in wheaton to have the best prices...assuming you
    want to haggle over prices.
    
    				-Jeff