Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    paul, i've been looking round for a USED Fostex A8, 15ips, dolby
    C, 7 1/2" reels. available for $800-$1000.. these generally have
    seen light use. they have noise reduction for less than a third
    the price of the tascam 38, which has none. after all i'm not cutting
    CDs here. yet.
    
    karl moeller

    
    The Fostex has response from 40-18KHz maximum. That's not real
    professional specs. The Tascam will go out to 23K (Len? Dave?).
    Much more like it.
    
    Signal/noise on the Fostex is on par with a Dolby C cassette deck,
    around 70 dB. The Tascam does that at 15 ips with NO noise reduction.
    Makes a big difference when bouncing tracks. When you can afford
    another $550 you can get 4 dbx 150X units and approach 100dB S/N.
    
    Sure 1/2" tape is more bucks, but it is a pro format which can be
    taken anywhere for mixdown, whereas the Fostex 1/4" format is
    constrained to it's machine.
    
    Used 38's are around $1600 here.
    
    CdH
    

    re -1.. Chris, it's true, but my ears on a good day top out at 16KHZ.
    Most signal over 11-12KHZ, cymbal sizzle excepted, is hiss.
    
    Of course 1/2" tape is better that 1/4" tape. I was just pointing
    out that one can move into a USED FOSTEX 8 track WITH noise reduction 
    (of course,it NEEDS it) for about $1000, rather than $3-4K.

    karl

    At school, we used an Otari Mark III (or was it Mark II...?),
    1/2" tape, 15ips, no NR.  What price range do these fall into (new
    or used)?
    
    Richard

    
    The Otari's, at least the ones you'll see around nowadays, came
    in two flavors, the Mark II and the Mark III. The II is made up
    of two modules, the transport and the electronics. It's built like
    a......, and weighs about 140 lbs. It's still very much a state
    of the art machine (as far as 8 track goes) and is used by many
    pro studios for preproduction. A fairly good example in decent shape
    goes for about $2500 used. The Mark III is a self-contained unit,
    with the electronics mounted above the transport. The meters are
    smaller, and the package isn't too portable. But it's still being
    made new (don't know how much) , can be had with a SMPTE track
    (pseudo ninth track) and the sound quality is at least as good as
    the Mark II. They are about $4000 used.
    
    There is no comparison between the Fostex-level machine and the
    Otari. What you get for your money is a machine designed and built
    for day in, day out use, year after year. The Tascam 38 and Fostex
    E series should be called semi-pro gear, fine for a home studio
    (until you can afford an MCI 8^)) but questionable for a busy 
    commercial studio. Some studios start out with the Fostex and upgrade
    when it gets near the end if its life, which is one-two years of
    full time use. The Otari is about as nice an 8 track machine as
    you can buy.
    
    Re: Karl
    
    On a good day I can hear up to 18KHz, but that isn't the point I
    was making. It's not the fundamental, it's the harmonics (ask Mark
    S. about natural sound) which make up more of a feeling than an
    absolute tone. I guess the thing that bugs me about the 18K figure
    was that it was listed as a maximum, not 40-18KHx +/- XdB (as in
    a bandwidth). So who knows how it really sounds. 
    
    I also didn't mention a thing about crosstalk in such a narrow format.
    
    CdH
    

Subj:	fostex :: "Who knows what it (Fostex A-8) Sounds like ?
    "Crosstalk in such a narrow format".. 8tracks in 1/4" is the same
    as 4tracks in 1/8".. when's the last time you heard backward 
    signals coming from your home stereo cassette deck ? Re the A-8,	
    John Sauter knows, he has one. He's also submitted a piece
    to COMMUSIC TAPE II, possibly recorded using the A-8.

            Reproduced without permission.
    
From:	DSSDEV::SAUTER  "John Sauter  02-Jun-1986 0814"  2-JUN-1986 09:23
To:	CANYON::MOELLER,SAUTER      
Subj:	Fostex 8-track Answers

Hi Karl.  Yes, I am happy with it.  I cannot confirm the 55 db
crosstalk number, since I don't have measuring equipment and I
generally record very similar material on adjacent tracks anyway.
It may be the signal-to-noice level on isolated tracks.

Yes, I have 1/4 inch tape.  It uses a 7 1/2 inch reel at 15 ips,
which gives me about 22 minutes per tape.  So far that's been enough
for anything I have wanted to do, since my "masters" are on floppy
disks as MIDI files.  I have only one reel of tape.  Since I bought
my unit a better one has come out, which will accept velocity servo
information from an outboard SMPTE unit.  If I were buying today I'd
get that one, since it will let me add more tracks later.  So far I
haven't found the need for more tracks, but I'm sure I will eventually.

I run a Fostex 8-channel mixer that I bought with the recorder.
I have occasionally wished for more channels, but so far I have been
able to kludge my away around its limitations.  It has VU meters
for each channel plus two for the monitor outputs, and I have found
them very valuable.
    John Sauter

    
    Hey Karl, I'm not trying to get into a pi**ing contest here...the
    title of this note is "8 which and why", so I'm just trying to point
    out to Mr. Kent what the differences are between the two formats.
    I'm as anxious as you are to hear from someone who uses a 1/4" machine
    regularly.
    
    The home cassette deck analogy doesn't hold up, though, because
    you're primarily listening to remixed, compressed, and processed
    music. Crosstalk can be a problem in a mastering situation, and
    certainly the 1/4" machine will exhibit more of a problem than
    an equivalent 1/2" machine.
    
    CdH
    
    
    

    re: .6--Yes, my piece on tape II was recorded on the A-8.
    Reproduction permission retroactively granted (though you
    could have corrected the typo.)
        John Sauter

    The rated S/N for a 38 without dbx is 65 db.  I have heard 38 tapes
    done without dbx and they have audible hiss (some of which may have
    come from elsewhere than the tape/recorder).  My 38 doesn't get
    round the clock use, but Dave Dreher's, which gets a tad more use
    had its capstan motor bearing seize.  Don't know if that's
    representative.  For a "semi-pro" machine, the 38 is built like
    a tank (it weighs about 80 lbs).  With dbx, the tapes are absolutely
    quiet.
    
    I'm quite happy with mine, but there wasn't anything else readily
    available at the time I got it, so I didn't look very hard at anything
    else.
    
    len.
    

    re .6 : John, I did correct some typos regarding reel size and 
    		recording time.
    re .7 : Chris, what kind of cassette 'remixed, compressed, processed' 
    		signals are you talking about? Average signal level?
    		I routinely run +7DB levels in my Nakamichi decks, Dolby
    		'B' only. This includes my OWN music, and I would certainly
    		know what's happening with it. I don't HAVE a (stereo)
    		compressor. It seems to me you're prematurely blowing
    		off 8 tracks in 1/4" based on personal assumptions.
    		I get amazingly clean tapes out of my Nak cassette decks 
    		and I guess I'm willing to believe that a Fostex 8trk with
    		Dolby 'C' might do quite well FOR ME. The 'cassette
    		analogy' DOES work.. it's all Dolbyed signal on tape
    		to me.
    re .9: len, a possible reason that Dave's deck capstan siezed is
    		that when the deck was on, there was always tension
    		on the tape tensioner, keeping the capstan motor going
    		every second the deck was on. Rolling the tape reel
    		to the right loosens the tensioner, allowing the motor
    		to stop. This is a characteristics of all TEAC/TASCAM
    		equipment.
    
    karl moeller
  
    		

    Regarding my capstan motor problem:  It was probably caused by
    the way Karl described.  I now release the tension on reels to
    stop the capstan from spinning when not rolling.  It cost $89
    to replace.  It seems the original motor had a 'melt-down'.
    
    Regarding crosstalk:  On a cassette, when you have a full mix
    playing simaltaniously, you probably won't notice any crosstalk
    since there is almost always program material on both sides.
    When recording 8 track, you might have material on adjacent tracks.
    On mixdown, you want just one of those tracks mixed for 8 bars,
    say, vocals.  But you can hear the drums on the adjacent track
    bleeding through.  Very faint, but it could be annoying.
    
    Dave

    I would consider cross-talk and portability of tapes as two important
    factors if I were buying an 8 track. I've worked in an 8 track studio
    with the Mark II Otari, and even on that machine cross talk is
    noticeable if you're trying to begin a song with one track only
    and the track next to has something recorded. I would suspect it
    is considerably worse on a Fostex. 
    
    The wider tape format allows you to take rough tracks into a studio
    for mix down, where they may have a better monitor system and effects.
    I don't know the situation where you are, but in Boston there are
    several 8 track studios with much better outboard gear than I could
    ever afford. 
    
    Rob

Re: .10 & motor binds

    The TEAC 144 (and I believe all 4-track cassette models) have the motor
    spinning whenever a cassette is in place.  The only way to stop it is
    to remove the tape.

Re: Crosstalk
    
    Crosstalk is quite noticable on my 144, which is supposedly specs out
    close to the Fostex .25" 8-track deck.  If you put very hot tracks
    down, it *will* bleed through.  And it *is* an annoyance. Strangely
    enough, my standard cassette deck (K-960 Yamaha) does not demonstrate
    crosstalk.  Perhaps there's not enough tape to go around sliced 4 ways?

8^)

    re .13 and crosstalk - the track widths and intertrack spacings
    for 4 track (one direction) and stereo (two direction) cassettes
    are pretty much the same, but since the tracks are interleaved in
    the stereo case so physically adjacent tracks are recorded in
    opposite directions, the crosstalk is "backwards" and may sound less
    obvious or objectionable.                        
    
    len.
    

    
    Re: .11, .12, .13
    
    That's what I was trying to say to Karl, in fact, it is what I said
    to Karl, it just didn't come out as "clean". 8^)
    
    I try very hard not to "blow something off based on personal
    assumptions". I HAVE worked with the Otari -8 in half inch, and
    although I haven't critically listened to the Fostex I know several
    people who run studios based on them and regard their opinions highly.
    This crosstalk issue has more to do with "signal integrity" between
    tracks than "sonic quality" overall. That was my point. I guess
    I wish I could put things down as eloquently as Len or Dave or Edd.
    
    CdH
    
    

    I don't want to get involved in any of the arguments. I just want
    to state my opinions based on my experiences.
    
    The first 8-track demo I ever did was on the Fostex, about 1 1/2
    years ago. At the time, I thought the quality was quite good, certainly
    better than I could get with my Teac 3340 4-track. For the money
    and the beginning studio, it is a good learning machine and the
    quality is certainly reasonable for the money.
    
    When I was ready to buy an 8-track, I looked at the Tascam-38, the
    Tascam-48, and the Otari Mark III. Needless to say, once I made
    sure I could arrange financing, I bought the Otari. I have as yet
    not purchased any noise reduction - I haven't needed it. I bought
    a very clean Carvin 16x8x2 board and high-end outboard gear, and
    realized I didn't need noise reduction. The tapes to date have been
    super quiet. It is, as someone previously mentioned, the state of
    the art 8-track machine.
    
    If you can afford the Tascam, go for it. Every pro-audio man I talked
    with at the Boston area stores agreed that the difference is very
    noticeable between the Tascam and the Fostex.
    
    Incidentally, the Tascam-38 brand new was around $2800, the Tascam-48
    brand new was around $3900, and I bought the Otari with a stand
    for $5000. These prices were last May at the Music Workshop in Nashua,
    NH.
    
    -Dan
    

    RE: .16
    
    Dan,
    
    	How do you like your Carvin Mixer (16x8x2)?  I'm in the market
    for a new mixer.  I currently have a Tascam 312 (12x4x2) and I've
    out grown it.  I want somthing with along the lines of 24x8x2 with
    at least 4 aux sends plus numerous patch points.  I saw an add for
    Carvin mixers and they make such a beast.  It seemed very well priced.
    What do you think?
    
    Dave 
        

    Well, none less than good ole Frank Zappa is a Carvin fan, and Frank's
    not noted for his poor taste.
    
    The Carvins are also pretty cost effective, as they only sell direct
    and don't have a whole lot of marketing expense.
    
    len.
    

    RE: .17
    
    I cannot recommend the Carvin mixer highly enough. I was using a
    rented Soundtrax board before I bought the Carvin, which I thought
    was good quality. When we re-mixed some tapes using the Carvin board,
    and the quality was crystal clear.
    
    If you really want a good explanation of the ins and outs of this
    board, I'd suggest you contact Ray Grimard (MKFSA::GRIMARD). I bought
    the board from him. He just upgraded his studio by purchasing the
    old board from Downtown Recorders in Boston. I am not a highly
    technical person (although I am learning). He could describe the
    features to you much better than I could.
    
    If you'd like to come and see the board and get a demonstration,
    send me mail and maybe we can arrange something.
    
    -Dan
    

    I believe Carvin also sells their manuals via mailorder if you're
    interested in a preview of a particular unit before plunking down
    *all* your hard cash.
    
    Incidentally all reviews I have read about Carvin products (e.g.,
    their guitars) have universally commented on their quality and value.
    
    len.
    

  
    We talkin' born in the USA  or another Jap(anese for the sensitive)
    
    retribution? Hmmmm?
    
    rjr_bored_with_boards
        

Re: Carvin mixers

I've never seen an ad of theirs. Does anyone have a contact address ?
And how much do the mixers mentioned cost ?

zayed

    re: .22
    
    The mixer I bought (16x8x2) sells for somewhere between $4000-$5000
    new. I'll see if I can dig up their address this week sometime.
    I think I've got it somewhere. 
    
    I also saw in the latest issue of "The Beat" the name of a dealer
    who sells Carvin equipment. They claim to be the only Carvin dealer
    in New England. I'll check on that too.
    
    -Dan
    

    According to mix magazine, the 16x8x2 goes for around $3000 and
    the 24x8x2 goes for 3900.  I'll try to find the add and reprint
    the prices and features.
    
    Dave

    I brought the add in from Mix magazine.  Here's what it says:
                                               
    Specs: "Total harmonic distortion at mid freq measured .025% while
    	   line inputs measure only .01%"
    
    		MX2488  24x8x2		  $3995
    		MX1688  16x8x2  	  $2995
    		MX1644  16x4x2            $1695
    		AN-16   16ch anvil case	   $269
    		AN-24   24ch anvil case    $299
    
    		MX2488 Recording features:
                .  Eight track studio control center
    		.  Quick tape playback and rough mix
    		.  Three band parametric EQ with defeat
    		.  Complete que mixing facilities
    		.  Four auxilary busses with pre-post switching
    		.  Two effects returns with panning and soloing
    		.  Patch jacks and direct outs on each channel
                .  Solo and mute on all input and output channels
    		.  Built-in talkback system and monitor diming

        	Send $10 for for the complete 100 page manual including
    		schemedics and circuit layouts.
    	    
    		Adress:	Carvin
    		        Dept. MX77
    			1155 Industrial Ave.
    			Escondido, CA 92025

    		order direct - VISA, MasterCard
    
    		Call Toll-free   800-854-2235 (Calif. 800-542-6070)
                Factory hours: Mon-Fri 8:00-4:30 Calif. Time
    
	I've priced boards with similar features (Soundcraft,Soundtracs,
    	Tascam,Allen-Health-Brennel,Yamaha) and they are all in the
        $5000-$7000 range.  This board seems to be real nice for the
        price.  Think I'll check out Dan Dube's MX1688...