Conference napalm::commusic_v1

After suffering a few months behind the times with VMS V4.1 and no VAXnotes
I'm back on line with a new setup to tell you about. At the end of March I
got a great deal ($2750) on a KX-88/MKS-20 combination at Daddy's Junky
Music in Nashua, NH. After I had decided on this as the configuration I
wanted I shopped around for price. LaSalle Music in Boston quoted me the
best price, but Daddy's told me they'd match the best price and they're more
convenient for me PLUS they had the stuff in stock and LaSalle's was back
ordered. Note: LaSalle's wouldn't quote me a price over the phone, I had to
walk in.  E.U. Wurlitzer didn't even come close.

I'll be reviewing the Roland MKS-20 Digital Piano in a separate note.

I was adamant about wanting the controller separate from the sound
generator, so this ruled out all the integral keyboard synths from DX-7's to
Fairlights. I wanted a totally modular setup, because I don't know what I'm
going to get into next, FM synthesis, additive synthesis, sampling or
whatever. I have a strong background in piano and for the time being I'm
ensconced in my studio (i.e. no roadwork), so I wanted a full width piano
style keyboard. Within these parameters the choice boiled down to either the
Yamaha KX-88 or the Roland MKB-1000.

I picked the KX for the auxiliary controllers, and the programmability. Both
units have an 88 key piano style keyboard with weighted action, velocity
sensitivity, aftertouch, and 2 modulation wheels: one spring-loaded
return-to-center, (commonly thought of as the pitch-bender) the other a
stay-where-you-leave-it continuous controller (commonly thought of as the
vibrato (from mini-moog usage, I think.)) Both have programmable split point
and transposition setting. Both can transmit on any MIDI channel, and in
split mode on any 2 channels. Both keyboards felt about equally good to me.
Same for the modulation wheels. The MKB's mechanical switches feel crisper
than the KX's membrane switches, and would probably be easier to find by
feel in the dark at a gig if your light show requires that. On the other
hand the KX is probably more resistant to beer spillage and dust
contamination.

The KX also has breath controller input and 4 sliders which the MKB lacks,
and two on/off pedals (e.g. sostenuto and sustain) and two continuous foot
pedals (e.g. wah-wah or volume) where the MKB only has one of each. The KX
has 5 momentary switches (i.e. push it - it turns on; release it - it turns
off) and 2 toggle switches (i.e. punch it once it's on; punch it again it's
off) as well as two sets of 16 program change buttons. The MKB (I don't
remember this too clearly) has two sets of 8 bank and 16 program change
switches, one for above and one for below the split point.

The big win of the KX over the MKB is in the programmability of these
controllers. The MKB seems to be set up very well for live "pop" gigs where
you have to control the presets of a large bank of remote synths. The
bank/patch selection setup makes it easy to jump from patch to patch in
minimal time in a live situation. You can switch both bank and patch number
for both above and below the split point all at once, like playing a chord.
With the KX you'd have to do it with 8 sequential hits, waiting for the
logic to respond properly to each one, and an intricate arpeggio it can be.
But when it comes to twiddling with a lot of continuous parameters, e.g. FM
operators, the MKB is very limited.

What the KX can do that the MKB can't do (at least, none of the sales drones
I asked could figure out how to make it) is allow any physical controller
(aftertouch, breath controller, foot pedal) to send any MIDI control change
parameter on any MIDI channel. I used this feature to get my toggle switches
to on/off the built-in tremolo and chorus on the MKS-20, so instead of
reaching over to punch the front panel of the MKS-20 I can hit the toggle
switches on the keyboard console. This would have been impossible with the
MKB (as far as I can tell.) If the MKS-20 would respond to MIDI messages for
controlling the EQ paramaters and rate/depth of chorus/tremolo I could
control them from the KX, using any physical controller I wanted (breath
controller, slider, whatever.) There are also universal parameter
programmable setups that can be used to send system exclusive messages and
any manufacturer-specific codes or sequences (up to 8 bytes) and also a
manual input mode which can be used to send ANY sequence of bytes. I haven't
tried that one out yet, but I feel pretty confident that whatever MIDI
equipment I get in the future I'll be able to control it with the KX-88.

All these settings can be saved in any of 16 memories for later re-use. If
you really screw things up badly there's a way to get back to the factory
settings. When you run out of memory in the KX you can dump the whole raft
or one at a time through MIDI to your computer, and load them back later.
This can be controlled either from the KX side or the MIDI side. (At least,
that's how I understand the documentation, this hasn't been tested.)

The manufacturer's suggested list prices I was quoted were $1695 for the
KX-88 and $1795 for the MKB-1000. Daddy's, LaSalle's and Wurlitzers were
willing to deal on the Yamaha, ($1400-1600) but there was some kind of heavy
restriction coming down from Roland about letting things go below list
price. Apparently they decided they had too many distributors, and were
looking for excuses to break contract with some of them. Looking at it that
way I got the MKS-20 for full list price and the KX-88 for $1000.

If any fellow netters are interested in a hands-on demo it can be arranged,
but my studio is tiny so this offer is limited to at most 2 customers at
once. The KX-88 weighs in at 63 pounds, more than I can comfortably handle
be myself, so out-calls are going to be very difficult.

    
    	Just some price info -
    
    		I called Sam Ash and was quoted $1476 for the KX-88.
    
    		Also, the TX-816 is going for $4396.
    
    						- Karl

    I think I'm ready to take the plunge and buy an MKB-200 and
    a TX7.  I know you can't program the TX7 with out a DX7 but
    enough people have DX7's that I can get patches for it.  The
    idea is that I can get a CZ101 or some other MIDI sound generator
    latter on.  The price of TX7, MKB-200, and CZ101 is about the
    same as a DX7.  The trade off is that you can program a DX7 versus
    the ability to split and layer on the MKB plus have another sound
    source.  You can also send patch change information the the other
    sound generators from the MKB.  I tried running a TX7 from the
    MKB this weekend and it worked fine.  Patch change, velocity
    sensitivity, aftertouch, pitch bend and modulation all worked.
    I already have a Jupiter-6, so this ought to make a nice MIDI setup,
    especially sequencing with the Linn.
    
    Here's the best prices I can find so far:
    
    		MKB-200		$725          DX7	$1659
                TX7		$699
    		CZ101		$250
    		--------------------
    			       $1674
    
    
    Does this sound reasonable?       
    Or am I being impulsive?
    
    DD
    

    There was a whole article this month in one of the U.K. mags about
    using TX's without DX's. I think basically the author concurred
    with you and reckoned that the DX was falling a little behind in
    terms of keyboard quality and "bang for buck" and that the TX7 was
    a great option. He was programming his from a commodore 64 however.
    The one thing I am wondering about is how you are going to swap
    patches with DX owners they mostly save their patches on cartridges.
    I don't think the TX has a cartridge slot. Does the DX have a cassette
    interface compatible with the TX.
    
    				PAUL.

In the latest issue of the Roland Users' Group magazine I just got there's a
page about the MKB-200 which says it's a weighted-action 5-octave (i.e. 60
keys) keyboard. Compare this against the Yamaha KX-76 which is 6+ octave
non-weighted action. Both a compromise in a different direction.

I think you could program a TX-7 with a Yamaha KX style keyboard, but I
don't the the Roland MKB series is up to it. When I was in the store they
told me that you can actually program the TX-7 through its own front panel,
but this looked to me to be prohibitively tedious. 

Actually, I think if you are just using canned patches this wouldn't be so
bad. You just scan down the data sheet and punch in the parameters basically
sequentially. The bottleneck is when you're trying to modify a patch. It's
hard enough to conceive of how to modify an FM program without also
struggling against a minimum bandwidth display: each parameter is
represented by some cryptic LED symbol followed by a 2-digit setting.

So in other words this setup sound OK. With a Jupiter, a Casio and a TX-7
you ought to be able to go pretty far without having to get deeply into
editing the TX-7 FM programs. For any serious patch editing you're
going to need a computer.

Just my opinion.

Don.

    The latest issue of Keyboard magazine has an advertisment from Beetle
    products for a programmer that looks like a DX-7 front panel. They
    say that it can program Tx216, Tx816 and Tx-7s just fine. Another
    alternative already mentioned is getting a personal computer with
    a DX-7 voicing program. You may already have a PC of some sort,
    in which case this is definately the way to go.
    
    	- Rick
    

    
    	I haven't tried it yet, but my scanning of the TX and KX manuals
    lead me to believe that you can program the TX modules from both.
    
    	However, you will still need some way of storing the program
    off-line (otherwise, your only choice is to write over a current
    program).
    						- Karl_1

    I have been using two TX7s for about a year with nothing but a computer
    interface.  My patch library consists of entries obtained from
    my dealer.  He would allow me to move DX7 ROMS to the TX7 and then to
    the TX7 cassette interface.  There isn't any easy to way to make
    patch changes on the TX7.  I now have a DX7 which makes things much
    easier.  Without either a computer or some other edit device I would
    only want to depend on preset patch selections which could be loaded
    on the TX7 with the cassette interface.
    

    re .4 -> .8  Thanks alot!
    
    re .5  How much more is the KX-76 than the MKB-200?
    
    I just put in an order from Sam Ash for a TX7 on the old VISA
    card.  I think I'll start with a library of Patch presets.  I
    would like to have one of the savesets be "the Best of DX7' sounds.
    Like 6 rhodes and piano patches, clavinet, 4 or strings, 4 or 5
    DX7 bass patches, Bells, brass and others.  I don't need "TakeOff'
    or 'Train'.  I'll worry about getting an editor after the VISA is
    paid off.  
    
    DD
      

    Let us know how things work out in practice.  I have decided to
    go a route similar to your own but might start out with an Oberheim
    Matrix-6R before I add the TX7.  Since I am more used to analog
    programming, I thought I'd go with that type of machine (replacing
    my JUNO-106) first and then add the TX7 or slimmed down TXn16.
    
    		Good luck,
    		Derek

    Maybe this should be another note, but since it was mentioned,
    
    	What do you think of the Oberheim matrix 6 (or 6R).  I just
    saw one in Sam Ash, and the presets were pretty wimpy, but I gleaned
    a potential for great sounds.  Has anyone had experience with it?
    BTW: I would look more seriously at the 6 because it has the aftertouch
    keyboard and that makes for some excellent capabilities if your
    controller doesnt have that feature already.
    
    Dan

    see note 328.8 for my notes on the Matrix-6
    
    	- Rick
    
    

    Rick,
    	You describe the differences between Matrix-6 and the Roland.
    	Im looking for points of view on the Oberheim by itself.  Did
    	you buy it?  How do you like it?  Good sounds?  That stuff.
    	Anyone out there have one?
    
    Dan

    There was a review of the Matrix-6 in a recent Keyboard or something.
    I'll see if I can track it down.
    
    len.
    

    I haven't bought one, but I'm leaning heavily towards it. I like
    the versatility, which I miss from my modular synth days and from
    the MIT experimental music studio.
    
    Len,
    
    	If you can find that review from Keyboard I'd be most grateful. 
    There is also a review of it in the second issue of Keyboards,
    Computers and Software, or whatever that new magazine is called.
    
    - Rick
    
    

    It's the March 1986 issue, with the low-resolution picture of Jean-
    Michel Jarre on the cover.  Keyboard.  I also thought of the review
    in KCS too.  The Keyboard review may be more meaningful if you've got
    their old review of the Expander (last year?); also the recent article on
    programming the Expander/Matrix-12 (sorry, no date) in Keyboard
    would be helpful (it's recent, like the last two or three months
    at most... I think).
    
    len.
    

    Thanks,
    
    	Geez, I'm going to have to subscribe! I find I buy more and
    more of the issues these days at full price...
    
    	- Rick
    

    The Matrix-12 review was in the July '85 issue (Kate Bush on the
    cover!), and the "How to Program the Xpander" was in the May '86
    issue (Ivo Pogorelich on the cover).  Been spelling Xpander wrong
    all this time, sorry Oberheim.
    
    What a retrieval system, huh?!  (Consists of digging through piles
    of magazines looking for the issue in question or an annual index).
    
    len.
    

    This is probably a question which requires someone with access to
    the equipment to answer:
    
    I am totally confused about how to perform patch changes on the
    KX series of keyboard controllers.  I have a copy of the marketing
    brochure and a copy of the review in _Keyboard_, but no one addressed
    the issue of performing patch changes on remote synths from a KX88
    or KX76.
    
    What I want to do is be able to change patches (up the MIDI limit
    of 128) on the synths that the KX is currently addressing.  In split
    mode that would mean on two different channels; in whole mode, that
    would mean one channel at a time, or all MIDI channels simultaneously.
    
    Is this possible or do I need a Roland MKB series to do that?
    
    Also, I am lead to believe from the marketing boo-bah that you have
    a few choices for ways to program VOICES into the TX series:
    
    	1.) From a DX7 or DX1
    
    	2.) From a computer with voicing software
    
    	3.) From one of the BEETLE programmers mentioned in a previous
    	note.
    
    Nothing I have read leads me to believe you can program VOICES (not
    function data) from its front panel.
    
    		Thanks in advance for any answers,
    		Derek

Re: .19 (TX Modules)
    
    I can't speak for the controllers, but I do have a TX7 tone module, and
    have worked with the TXx16 units. 
    
    As far as I can tell, there is no bloody way to program one of these
    things standalone.  I KNOW that you can't program a TX7 without
    external help - I doubt that you can program a module to the x16
    without external help. 
    
    Even if you could, it would be Slllllloooooooowwwwwww as a cow in a
    hottub.  8-)  Best bet - either get an external programmer or find a
    friend with a DX7. 
    
8^)

    Brad,
    
    	I'm confused.  The manual for the tx 216/816 states very clearly
    that all 145 of the voice parameters can be programmed from the
    front panel (or a KX88).
    
    	However, being a MIDI novice, I have yet to try this.
    
  	It does sound tedious, though.  A good voicing program would
    probably be a blessing.
    
    						- Karl
    
    p.s. Brad, do you lots of wonderful tx patches/programs that you
    might be willing to send me? :-)

Re: .21
    
    I know that the manual states very clearly that the TX modules can
    indeed be programmed from the KX keyboards. 
    
    What they don't bother to tell you is that the setup required to make
    the KXes do this is horrendous (unless something has changed recently)!
    Furthermore, setup of the KX in this manner precludes all other
    operation (such as really using it as a keyboard controller - this
    setup sucks the memory dry). 
    
    So, I guess in all honesty, it CAN be done.  Heck, I can also run a
    quarter mile in under 50 seconds (at least I used to) - but I wouldn't
    count on much useful work out of me before, during, or immediately
    after such a fiasco.
    
    As for patches, let me see what I can dig up.  What specifically
    are you looking for?
    
8^)

I tried the Kurzweil MIDIboard at LaSalle last weekend and HATED it!  It 
reminded me of the way a harpsichord feels!  The keys "click" when you play 
them, which drives me batty!

They didn't have a KX88, but I tried various Yamaha PF-series electric 
keyboards and really liked their action.  Heavy action for good expressive 
control, quick response, no sluggishness in bouncing back like Roland's.  Very 
tight design, all around.

No word yet on the Kawai.  I have a feeling it's going to be a real loser.  
Wonder what Yamaha has up their sleeve?

Guess we'll know next week when the data from NAMM is released.


				Mark

    From Daddy's  rep. today (live) that went to NAMM:
    
    No new yamaha controller. DX7 mark2. TX81Z (like
    a fancy 16 voice fb01. you want one. ~$500)
    a new sequence, a new drum machine. thats about it.

    If you notice slugish bounce back on keys, dont bother
    to try a KX88.
    
    Such an unreasonable, unfounded, unsupported statement
    about Kawai being poor. You aint tried it, seen it, smelled it....
    
    Im sure you just want to be the first on your block to poo poo it,
    but I think you should wait and see. If you could tell about the
    future or know the unknown, Im sure you would be retired by now. jeez.
    
    ron

Re: .23:  Yes, the bounce-back on Roland weighted keyboards is poor,
especially compared to Yamaha (even their CP series). Its a shame -
cause it makes the first generation of MKS-20 pianos inaccessable to
many of us.  (see the note on "the NEW Electronic Pianos"). If you
like Yamaha - look at the Clavinovas - they may not be much more than
the PFs, and, I think, the Clavinovas may be more Midi-smart (do the
PFs have MIDI?) 

    
    Gee. What is this "bounce back" that makes the "first generation
    of MKS-20 pianos inaccessable to many of us" ? 
    
    Many of whom? 
    
    The Kx88 is sluggish. I find the Rolands have superior action.
    And the only fair comparison in Yamaha's (or other mfg-er) line
    *must* have a weighted action. I believe that leaves the CP series
    out?
    
    Of course 'my' standard is a Steinway that Im used to.

    Talk is cheap, Jeff. What is your "perfect" piano action? 
    
    Ron
        
        

Ron-My CP-30 had weighted keys, reasonable action, and good bounce-back.
I've been quite impressed with the feel of subsequent Yamaha keyboards (PF
series, ClaviNova,YPR-n).  On the other hand, I spent one evening with the
Roland (MKS-20 internals) HP-3000, and was disappointed with the action,
particularly the slow bounce-back. Since only Roland presently makes MKS-20
pianos (to my knowledge), this makes having an MKS-20 type keyboard 
somewhat inaccessible, to me at least, as I find the compromise of a slow
keyboard unacceptable, and don't have the $$$ to by both the module AND a
keyboard. 

Which Roland do you have?  Maybe I should try it out sometime? 

    I don't have the inclination (or experience) to get into the "perfect
    piano action" debate.  I just want to add a comment about the Yamaha
    PF series.

    A few years ago I wanted a full 88 key keyboard with a piano-like
    action (i.e, weighted, etc.) and a reasonable sound.  The Yamaha PF-15
    (~ $1600) fit the bill pretty well at the time.  Most recently, I've
    added the Forte Music Midi-Mod to the PF-15 so it can receive and
    transmit MIDI information.  This cost me about $425 (I think... I'll
    get out my receipt for an exact figure if anyone cares.) 
    
    The point of this is that I've spent about $2000 on a MIDI keyboard
    that fits my style very well.  Now, I could get a PF-80 (that has all
    these features for about $1600!).  BUT... I keep hearing that used
    PF-15s are cheap because they lack MIDI.  If you like the feel of them,
    it may be worth your while to consider this alternative as a master
    MIDI keyboard.
    
    - John -
    
    P.S. I've glossed over the exact features of the MIDI modification
    because I can't remember them all off the top of my head.  If you're
    interested, you can send me mail and I'll answer them.  (I'm so
    busy with school right now (remember, I'm still working on my review
    of COMMUSIC Tape I !!!!) that the mail route will be more reliable
    than waiting for me to catch up on NOTES.)

RE: .24

Don't try to analyse me.  My statement about Kawai wasa follow-up to a 
previous statement, probably elsewhere in this same note, about what Wurlitzer 
had told me about the company.  They stated they were backing down from most 
of the originally announced functionality in order to keep the cost below $2K. 
 They expected it to be 73 keys, maybe not even touch sensitive or possibly 
velocity sensitive but no weighted action.  I am only reflecting Wurlitzer's 
pessimism.

When I called E.U. last week they didn't have info yet from the show.  I'm 
real disappointed, but may end up getting the KX88 if nobody else has anything 
coming out for awhile.  The TX81Z might be what I need voice-wise.  Does it 
replace the TX7, I wonder?  Is it rack-mount (far preferable and more portable 
than those silly square boxes that can't be stored properly and take up floor 
or counter space)?

Then again, I heard some rumours that Korg and Roland have new controllers on 
the way too.  Since Roland has had longer to do a good job, due to the 
security of having essentially been first to market with the MKB1000, I am 
looking forward to an optimistic announcement with regards to that company.


				Mark

RE: .28

Thanks for taking the time to enter some worthwhile data into this discussion 
about Yamaha.  Your suggestion of buying a used pf15 and adapting it, or 
buying a pf80, might be the wisest solution.

RE: replies by ROSS

As for keyboard feel, all acoustics have different feel so there is no such 
thing as perfect.  Only what you're used to.  My parents have a Mason & 
Hamlin.  My grandmother had a Steinway.  I liked the latter better, but grew 
more accustomed to the former.

The Yamaha KX88, in my opinion, does not have sluggish response.  It merely 
has high action.  It seems precise to me.  Oops, I forgot, I'm talking about 
the pf-series not the KX88.  Anyway, the Roland seems sluggish to me.  Light 
action, but imprecise.

These are just my opinions.  As is anything else stated by anyone else here.  
I will not be crucified for wanting heavy action on my keyboard.  Just as I 
will not tell solid-body guitarists that they have to switch to a jazz guitar 
if they want to play with feeling.  Because it isn't true.  That's why all of 
the keyboard controllers are selling well; everyone wants something different. 
 In fact, that's what gives music its diversity.


				Mark

    re .28: This may be old, but Keyboard's Feb. '87 issue talks about
    the TX81Z on page 28.  The author (Milano) describes the TX81Z as
    a professional version of the FB-01.  It has 16 multi-timbral voices,
    stereo out, more editing capabilities on the front panel, 11 preset
    and two user-programmable microtonal scales, four-operator FM with
    eight waveforms besides sine (instead of just sine), and a 12-bit
    DAC (instead of a 10-bit DAC like the FB-01).  It's expected to
    cost around $500.

    re .28,.31
    
    And it is rack-mountable -- the packaging is very similar to the
    SPX-90.
    
    Richard