Conference napalm::commusic_v1

Jim,

I agree with you 100%.  As a matter of fact, I am having a real problem deciding
what I should buy for next synth since I feel that the way for me to go is
to buy a MIDI keyboard controller and some rack mount modules.  Here is my
dilema (be forewarned, this goes on for a few paragraphs):

I currently own a Juno 106 and a few pre-MIDI synths (which I am looking
to trade/sell to help finance my upgrade).  I love the Juno but it is not
suitable (at least in my mind) as a MIDI controller for 2 reasons: first,
the keyboard is not velocity sensitive and therefore does not transmit velocity
information; second, I find the five octave range a little limiting.

I also feel that buying another synth with its own keyboard is a waste
of money since most of the ones on the market have only a five octave range,
which is no better than my Juno.

OK, so I have decided to buy a MIDI keyboard controller.  What brand is another
issue I won't go into.

What about synth or sampling modules??  Since I already have an analog-type
synthesizer, I would like to expand into either sampling or FM digital and
would like to go rack mount for convenience in the studio and on the road.
What are my options?                                                    

The Mirage Multi-sampler, which is the strongest contender at the moment.
My only gripe there is that the Mirage only responds to five octaves from
a MIDI controller, kind of defeating the purpose of having a MIDI keyboard
with greater than a five octave range.  Sigh...  at least the Juno can respond
to more than 5 octaves.

Yamaha doesn't help me out much at all.  The TX7 looks nice but has, again,
three major drawbacks that I see: first, its voices can only be programmed from
a DX7 (great, spend $1700 to program a $700 rack module) or a computer (not
willing to compromise on a Commodore 64 and can't afford anything better);
second, sounds are off-loaded to cassette tape (yuck) or computer (same as
above) or DX7 (ditto); third, only 32 sounds can be stored on board at once,
unless you have it upgraded by some company I saw advertised in _Keyboard_
magazine.  The TXn16 has the same limitations: it basically assumes you have a
DX7. 

Roland has some nice rack mount modules, but I am reluctant to go with them
because I already have the traditional DCO, VCF, VCA-type sounds at my disposal
now with the Juno.  Ted Czotter has agreed to demo his Super Jupiter for
me and after that I might change my mind.

Korg has some nice stuff, like the DW8000 (forget the name of the rack mount
version) but it again uses a similar technology to the traditional synths,
except that the waveforms used are generated using Digital additive synthesis.
I might look into this in more detail as well.

Not to forget the Sequential Prophet 2000 rack mount sampler, but it has
the same 5 octave limitation as the Mirage.

Where does that leave me?  Confused, actually, and hoping Casio could do
something like Yamaha (imagine 2 to 8 CZ101's in a rack...) or Yamaha will
get its act together and produce a REAL rack mount synth you can program
from the front panel, or maybe I'll bite the bullet and buy a Super Jupiter
or a Mirage Multi-Sampler.

Sorry about the tirade but I had to get it off my chest.  My wife is so sick
of hearing about this could die!!

Anyone else feel the same way?

		Derek
                     

Yeah, I'd sure like a rack mounted cz-101 too.

Note that the the rack mounted keyboardless Prophet 2000 DOES respond to more
than 5 octaves, at least so I have been told by the folks at EUWurlitzer.

Warning - you will fall in live with the super jupiter once you hear it/
play with it.  Set aside $2100.   Set aside another $350 for the programmer,
which is absolutely necessary (the programming interface on the synth
module is sequential access to parameters with up/down button control of the
values.  It takes a LONG time to program this way.).

There are articles on programming the CZ series in the latest Keyborad and
the latest Electronic Musician.  The latter is more useful, but neither
contains any blinding insights.

Take a look at the new Oberheim rack mounted Matrix 6.  The latest Keyboard
also reviews this synth module.  It's about $1K.  It looks very interesting
as an alternative to the standard VCO/VCF/VCA synth architecture.

len.

re: .2

If what the folks at Wurlitzer say about the rack mount Prophet 2000 is true,
that's good news!  I might consider it more strongly that the Mirage at this
point.  I guess it also remains to be seen what type of visual smaple editing
software appears for the Prophet 2000; the software from Blank Software for
the Mac and Mirage looks mighty nice!

Based on prior good experiences with Roland, I am inclined to believe I will
love the Super Jupiter.  Roland sure makes some nice gear!

		Derek

Derek,
 I found the super jupiter to be probably rolands best synth product to 
date....the sounds are superior including a fairly good sounding 
acoustic piano...at least much better than my Jx3-P.

dave

Re: .1

Derek - I thought that I was the only person in the world going thru this!!!!

After my tax refund, I'm going to have around $3K to spend, and have been
trying to decide what to blow it on. 

The only viable board I have is a midi'd OB-Xa (I love the thing!) -
everything else is pre 1980 stuff - old ARPs and the like.  I've looked at TX
modules, Roland modules, Mirage modules, and the same thing comes back - you
either need a blasted computer or a module-compatible synth to program 'em! 

>8^(

I, too, need a controller board.  I'd like a decent sequencer, and I'd also
like a decent patch librarian.  I can get a brand new 512K Mac for $1300, but
that only leaves around $1700 for modules, drum boxes, software, effects, etc.

What in the heck do I do?


Brad

Wait a few years until things get a whole lot cheaper (two years ago you
couldn't touch a six voice polyphonic synth for less than $4K!) or find
some more money.  Note that if it's more important to make music than
program new sounds, you can get by just fine with the presets that come
with today's synths.  You CAN program the modules without a compatible
synth or computer, it's just a real pain.  If I had to spend that $1700
judiciously, I'd go with a sampler that could handle both synth and drum
sounds, so I wouldn't need a drum machine.  However, that might imply a
requirement for a multitrack recorder.

You want it all, but right now, "it all" costs about $10K.  I started with
a Poly800 and a TR606 a year and a half ago, and it was enough to get started.
My setup now is much bigger and more capable, but I didn't get it all at once;
the technology changes fast enough that it makes sense to grow your system,
rathe rthan blow a jillion dollars on a ton of equipment that will have been
out-price-performed by the tie you understand fully how to exploit it.

len.

Re: -.2/-.1

It sounds like you guys have a good handle on just what's going on in this
wonderful world.  I'm still trying to ramp up after a few years "out of it". 

Maybe I should start another note, but I'll ask here anyway.  What do you 
think about the MAC?  Is $1300 a good deal on a new one?  Should I wait and 
see what the Amiga or ST are going to offer?

Here's the bottom line - I've got an Xa that I want to hang on to.  I've also
got the following gear: 

	Pianos:	Yamaha CP-30	Rhodes 73
	Synths:	ARP Omni-2	ARP Odyssey	ARP Axxe

In addition, I've got $$$ to spend - between $3K & $4K.  If this were you, 
what would you do?  Would you buy, or wait?  If buy, what would you buy?

And, just to keep somewhere in the realm of this note, what do you think of 
Casio stuff?

BTW - I am primarily a performer, although I have done session work in the 
past.  I'd like something that would fit the bill in both categories.


Brad

You ask too many questions! ;-)

OK, I'm personally holding out for the Amiga, but I have a real concern
about Commodore going belly up at this point.  Also there's still no
software for the Amiga, although some neat stuff is promised.  There's
a lot of good stuff available NOW for the Mac and the IBM PC.

If I had your gear and the bucks, I'd trade in the Arp stuff.  I don't know
anything about it other than it's old and Arp's gone, but that would be
enough.  If my resources weren't "open ended" and I didn't have a long term
plan for where I wanted to go (equipment-wise), I'd go with a good sampler
as the most flexible route.  You could sample drum and synth sounds from
other instruments.  I hear there's some neat Roland sampling stuff in
the wings. (Warning, I am a heavy duty Roland user.)  I have heard the
Mirage and the Prophet 2000 and they both sound pretty good, I think the
Prophet's got the edge.

The CZ series instruments have more bang for the buck than anything else.
Nothing can touch the -101 in the under $400 class.  The architecture takes
some getting used to, but I'm am continually mazed by what that little thing
is capable of.  If only it was velocity and aftertouch sensitive.  The
keyboard (on the -101) is a joke, but so what.  Buy one, you will never regret
it.   This is an unqualified recommendation in case you still can't tell!

If I had a jillion dollars, there's the Oberheim Matrix 12, and there's always
the Kurzweil.

len.

	As John Sauter has wisely said many times, 'don't buy futures'.

	I have a Mac and am happy with it.  If I had it to do over again,
I would only consider a Mac or an IBM.  They exist, the software exists,
and the MIDI interfaces exist.  Even the little Commodores would not
be a bad choice, but I worry about their future.

	I currently have a bunch of stuff on order. I kept researching 
until I knew that every piece I needed to make the setup work existed
and did what I wanted.  Counting on some promised technology is risky.

	(Mark - 'a house and a new car' *before* getting more equipment?
Where's your sense of priorities?)

	To the fellow with the Arps et al - none of that is MIDI or
(easilly) computer controllable.  Unless you're rich, sell the stuff
or don't get a computer.  It's simply too costly an area to tie up
money in incompatible equipment.

						- Karl

    re: .11--Right on!
        John Sauter

    	I saw it mentioned somewhere in this note, and I don't remember
    exactly how it was worded.  But anyway, I was wondering if you use
    a CZ101 as a MIDI slave, will it play notes beyond the limits of
    its 4 octaves?
    
    	Dan

    
    
    Yes

    But only up to a point.  Somewhere in the CZ-101 documentation is
    a MIDI specification summary that tells you exactly what it does
    for all note numbers.  It responds over a range at least octave
    above and below its keyboard.
    
    len.