Conference hydra::dejavu

   REf : 1183.0

   Appologies :I am not trying in any way, to infer that the name SADIE is linked
               to spritual phenomena.

    This is my first time replying in the notes files.  The name Sadie
    Johnson sounds very familiar.  I remember a girl I worked with had a
    mother that had a nick name Sadie and I beleive her last name is 
    Johnson - weird or what? I don't know if this woman is still alive.
    Also, I know that one of Charlie Manson's girls name was Sadie and
    the beatles have a song called "SADIE".
    
    I used one before that said he was Steve and another one that
    said she was Lizy Borden.  
    Nothing happened to me or the people that were using it with me.
    Nothing like your friend any way.  Weird stuff did happen and it made
    some predictions that came true.   This was about ten years ago i was
    18 - someone could have been pushing it.  There is one thing I do
    notice, most people that use Ouija boards stop after awhile and get 
    rid of them pretty quick.  The woman I used it with, one day came right
    out and said "get rid of it and never mention it again". The one that
    said it was Lizy Borden threatened my life and my friends so we got
    rid of it.  I personnelly would not use one again and would not advise
    anyone to use one.  I think they are evil spirits.
    
    Cathy
    

    Something else I just thought off.  The woman I spoke off SADIE JOHNSON
    did have a history of mental problems.  Her kids put her in a mental 
    hospital quiet a few times.  She also had a drinking problem and tryed
    to committ suicide.
    

    Without going into the good or bad of it, I'm interested in
    experimenting with a Quija board. Are there any other souls
    there that can offer the board and an extra set of hands?
    

  i myself am interested around the area of Ouija board, however i'm not toooo!
  sure if i said " I would like to EXPERIMENT with it"....mainly because
  i do not feel comfortable interms of the "know how" that i have. Also i have
  heard that you are likely to be more vunerable (sp.) ( in a bad/good way) if
  you do noty know what you are really getting into.

  What i can say is that as i learn more and feel more comfortable...AND can
  think of a viable reason to make contact via the Ouija,..AND i am with
  experienced persons ( for example my friend that i mentioned note 1183.0) then 
  i may go for it.
  
  Viren ( EUC Tools Consultancy )

    I would never use a Ouija board again.  I guess I'm not as curious as I 
    was 10 years ago. I don't think I had enough experience and the people
    I used it with did not either.  That is probably why we got all the bad
    spirits and we didn't know how to get rid of them.  Anyway, I'm not 
    interested in experimenting with a Ouija board again.  But, I do like
    this notes file.
    I didn't think you could get good spirits thru a Ouija board - not
    until I started reading this notes file. 
    I don't have a Ouija board any more anyways.  I am interested in
    reading everybodys experiences  with a Ouija board.
    
    Cathy
                                   

    
    re: .4 (FENNEL::ABRAHAMSON)
    
    	I've had the best results from teaming up with the right pair of
    	hands.  It's amazing what the right combination of energies can
    	accomplish!  I wish you positive, loving results.
    
    	I do have one suggestion, and that's to say a prayer before each
    	session on the Ouija board.  If you'd like me to share with you 
    	the protective prayer I've always used, given to me by one of my 
    	spirit guides, please send me mail.
    
    	Carla
    	

    
    reply .7
    
    Who/what is it that you are praying to? This strikes me as very odd. I
    don't know if others are interested, but I would like to see this
    prayer.
    
    Jamey 

    
       Every now & then, I get this urge to test to see for myself,
    if the Ouija board is true; but I always get this gut feeling not
    to.
    
    Lorenzo

    
    Be very careful with this one. Sometime a name can be a very
    manipulative message in disguise.  I really feel the name
    Sadie Johnson is not a person (or the person mentioned in
    1183.2).  But, if you examine it more closely you obtain
    this.
    
    
      SAD DIE JOHN SON
    
     after manipulating the words you can come out with something
    like 
    
    SAD SON of John DIE...
    
    Actually it could be very evil disguising itself as a name.  
    Just a warning too the wise. 
    
    By the way I like to learn hear that prayer too!  And it wouldn't
    hurt in a case like this...
    
    

    
    
    Reply .9
    
    		Always go with your own gut feelings. I don't think
    		you should do anything you feel right about.
    
    My original request ! Is there anyone out there in the southern
    N.H. area that has had GOOD experiences with this and would not
    mind bring me along for the ride.
    
    Thanks
    
    Jerry

  I ( Author of this note) have found the replies to this note very interesting....
   Some more info that i did not put in the note 1183.0...
 
  Ref .0...
  
  The  contact " SADIE JOHNSON', mentioned at the beggining...mentioned
  to my friend that  'it' was a nine-year old girl who had died in a accident
  of some kind. Also 'it' repeatedly asked my friend :

     " HELP ME TO COME BACK " (...or something very similar to this..)
   My friend replied by saying go away..  go away....


  I wonder if the contact was saying " HELP ME TO COME BACK ", due to the
   fact that it had been a young child....i.e. having had a relatively short
  Life-span.?......


  Viren.
  
  ** Have a great Xmas/new-year ** look forward to more...in the '90!!!!
   
  
    

    
    re: .8 (Jamey)
    
    	Who/what does anyone pray to?  And why does praying strike you
    	as odd?  Loving positive guidance and protection is not really
    	an odd thing to pray for.
    
    	I have a strong aversion to posting it for curiosity's sake.
    
    	Carla
    

    
    re .13
    
    Coming from the assumption that you are praying to God in the Christian
    sense, I am really pretty frightened for you. God is a very jealous
    God, and His spirit is the only one he wants us to experience. From His
    perspective, only He is good, and therefore his spirit is the only good
    spirit. Appealling to God's spirit for protection while you commune
    with other spirits is contradictory. Should God's spirit actually come
    into play at the same time as these (from God's point) evil spirits,
    the battle could literally destroy you. 
    
    If you are praying to some other spiritual being, then you are
    operating outside the realm of God and His spirit, in which case, I am
    still concerned for you, but see less contraditions (you are communing
    with spirits all within the same 'side' if you will).
    
    I constantly pray for positive guidance and protection. It is the who
    that is being prayed to that makes an infinite difference in the
    results. I could stand on the railroad tracks and ask him to protect me
    from trains, but I think He would probably ask me to quit testing him,
    rather brutally, I assume.
    
    As you can see, I am not idly curious, rather deeply concerned.
    
    Jamey
                              

I've been a reader of DEJAVU for over a year now and the OUIJA topics
have always interested me, though not to the point of becoming involved
in it's use.  However, there is something that I have a question on:
How long does an "OUIJA session" usually last?  It seems to me that 
since the entity/spirit has to spell EACH letter of a word and sentence
out INDIVIDUALLY, it could take an awfully long time to have a complete
and meaningful conversation with it.  Or do you draw conclusions from
incomplete words, sentences, and misspellings (i.e. "Lov U" = "I Love You")?

Just Curious.

Jennifer Kelly

    
    My sessions usually last from 45mins to 1hour on the average. It will
    differ according to the style of the contact,whether they abbreviate
    or spell out numbers,etc.A lot of times I know what the next few words
    will be,and,will acknowledge that,and our contact wont finish the
    sentence.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    
    Re.14 (Janordby)
    
    >Coming from the assumption that you are praying to God in the
    >Christian sense, I am really pretty frightened for you.  God is a very
    >jealous God...(etc.)
    
    It looks to me as if you are describing the legalistic/fundamentalistic 
    view of God as opposed to the view of God I subscribe to - the one who 
    sent Jesus with the message of Love.  
    
    For a clarification of this, see the first few notes of topic entitled 
    "Religions and World Peace" in this conference.
    
    Cindy
                                           

    re:13
    
    I agree with Jamey, praying before using a ouiji board is like asking
    God to protect you from the flames as you douse yourself with gasoline
    (all it take is one little spark!)
    
    When you use a device like that your leaving yourself "open" to
    attack. Anyone or anything could come into contact with you and
    the price you pay for your curiosity (as shown in .0) could be quite
    high. You want to talk to someone in the spirit world?? Talk to
    the Lord through prayer, He'll fufill all your needs and more!
    
    Cindy,
    
    Yes, our Lord is a *MOST* loving God, isn't He? But, if we love our
    Lord, we must obey the things He tells us. He tells us to stay away
    from such things for *our* good. Jesus know's what is best for us
    (take a look through all the Ouiji notes. I've read them all and
    the *bad* experiences out weigh the good at least 2 to 1).
    
    
    							In HIM,
    
    							Jeff
    
    
                                         

    
    re: last few with the jealous "God"
    
    If "God" is omnipotent, omnipresent, and "God is Love"  then it
    is not logical that such a being would require: a) worship - since
    worship implies dominance of the worshipee by the worshiped and
    b) total singular alligence since the god is all powerful to
    begin with and by definition doesn't need alligence to be fulfilled.
    
    Just my opinion
    
    aliso3n
    

    Reply to .19, Aliso3n,
    
    I agree. Love does not require or even intimate slavery, except perhaps
    in the fundamentalist-legalistic _mind_.

    Re: 19
     
       What you wrote, don't make any kind of sense at all!
    
    Lorenzo
    

    
    According to your statement: Are you married? OR have you ever been
    in Love? If so, YOU WERE A SLAVE TO LOVE!
    
    Lorenzo
    

    .22
    
    	I Maintain that if one is a slave to anything that it cannot
    be love, at least according to my definition.  Being a slave to
    anything or anyone is called "Co-Dependency" and is in no way healthy.
    
    Ernie             

    
    re: .23 (Ernie)
    
    Exactly.
    
    re: .22 (lorenzo)
    
    >According to your statement: Are you married? OR have you ever been
    >in Love? If so, YOU WERE A SLAVE TO LOVE!
    
    No, Lorenzo, you misread my words and miss my point.
    
    Love does not possess.  Love does not require worship.  Being
    married and loving a human in no-way requires either to be a slave
    to the other.  Love is all giving.  Love demands nothing from the
    other.  
    
    In fact, I am married - to my twin flame soul-mate.  And it is
    wonderful to be married to someone who cares about my well-being
    and loves me, and  whom I care about and love also.  There is
    no slave relationship between us.  In our relationship we know
    freedom and equality.  This is much more beautiful than the male
    dominance and female subservience that was required of me in
    a previous 'christian marriage'.  (disclaimer - I know and do not
    mean to imply that all 'christian marriages' are repressive and
    master slave oriented, but the precepts of the religion do
    predispose marriages within the religion to that possiblity.)
    
    Btw - Lorenzo - are you married?  Are you a slave to love or your
    partner? ;-)  Better yet,  and I ask this in all seriousness,
    are you a slave to your God?
    
    Aliso3n 
    

    The fundamentalists would argue that it is Satan speaking through
    your hands as a way of distracting you from the word of God. They
    apply the same reasoning to everything in this conference from ghosts
    to UFO's. 
    Personally, I think ouija boards are harmless fun and that we "create"
    our own spirits, demonic or otherwise through subconcience manipulation
    of the pointer. If you're aprehensive before playing with the thing
    (and most appear to be) you're bound to start spelling all kinds
    of scary stuff like Lizzy Borden death threats and the like. If
    you go into it with a clear head or as one noter mentioned, praying
    for reassurance, you'll undoubtably have a good experience. 
    As for Sadie Johnson, that was a very popular name at the turn of
    the century. Johnson being the #1 name in the country at the time.
    I have 2 great aunts named Sadie, 1 grandmother (all passed away)
    and in my wife's family there were 2 Sadies. IMO, it's like saying
    "There I was, holding the pointer gizmo and it started spelling
    J-O-H-N S-M-I-T-H ...wow! 
    
    When I was a kid I got a board for Christmas that had a pendulem
    instead of the pointer. We use to say "Spell my name" and lo and
    behold, the thing would start swinging just where I wanted it too.
    The directions even explained why: nerve endings 
    
    L'est I be perceived as a realist, please understand, I'm far from
    it, as my base notes in here will attest, i just can't buy the Ouija
    board. Who puts them ou? Milton Bradley? :) 
    
     
    
     

    Nope...Parker Brothers does ;-)

    Yeah, evil spirits and the anti-christ brought into this world by your
    friends at Parker Brothers.  :-)
    
    S

<   <<< Note 1183.27 by BUFFER::GOLDSMITH "Like a kiss from the lips of Ra" >>>
<
<    Yeah, evil spirits and the anti-christ brought into this world by your
<    friends at Parker Brothers.  :-)
<
    
    
    Don't know much about the anti-christ brought to you by Parker Brother,
    but I've found that anything from runes to crystals, to swinging a dead
    chicken over your head in a paper bag at midnight during a full moon is
    ok, as long as it helps you explore things about your own spiritual
    awareness. 
    
    I have a feeling that what this whole notes file is about is a bunch of
    people trying to grow a little. So, we crawl, we stumble, and we
    eventually we walk, and later on fire and maybe on water, and then we
    try to fly. But with luck, we learn something new about ourselves.
    
    So, Parker Brother, or K-mart, where can I find someone that wants to
    give it a try?     

    Re:24
    
      Yes I am married, and yes I am a slave to love/ my partner; When
    I speak, but not the way you view slave. I would do anything I can
    to please my wife, and to make her happy: we are, in a sense, slaves
    to love, when we do all we can to make the next person satisfied.
    I am not a dominant person: my wife and I are "Very" much in Love
    with each other, and as far as our marriage, it's equal and we're
    happy.
    
    Yes, I am my master's (Almighty God) servant (slave). I surrendered
    my whole being to him, that he may have his way in my life and direct
    down the path in life, that he want me to travel.  One day we all
    are going to bend our knees and give reverance to our Almighty creator,
    and every tounge must confess that he is Lord.
    
    Lorenzo
    

    .28
    
    I don't mean to offend you, please don't misread my :-).
    
    If doing these kinds of things help you find yourself, by all means go
    ahead with it.  For some of us that have trouble understanding the
    spiritual world, it seems quite odd that a toy would bring forth this
    "evil".  It's just hard to understand.
    
    S

    .30
    
    	Not to worry, I'm not offended, just tossing my two cents worth in.
    
    	Everyone has a different view of reality, myself included.
    
    	Mine however is not to place the "evel" with the object, but with
    	person. For me, I think we find in this life what we look for. I
    	don't look for evil, and I've been very lucky. So, like I said, you
    	can use a board, a cross, a rock, or a dead chicken at the full
    	moon. For me the object is not what we have to worry about, it's
    	our own minds !
    
    	%-)
    
    
    

    .30 
    
    Just took notice of the title for your reply:  "Perception is never
    reality."  Are you trying to say the converse: that reality is our
    perceptions? If someone thinks that reality and perceptions are
    totally isolated events, please  try to describe or define some
    aspect of reality without using any of your perceptions: perceptions = 
    sense stimuli + emotional and intellectual interpretation.    
    
    I agree with you though, as beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, so,
    too, evil exists  only in the eyes of the beholder.
                           
    General:
    
    I have tried working with the Ouija but never got any responses
    from it.  I tend to utilitize numerology to effectively acquire
    personal information for myself. 
    	I am interested in hearing more about individual experiences
    and contacts via the Board.  Information received if not too
    personal, etc.
    
        Ernie
    

    Re:   <<< Note 1183.28 by CLOVE::ABRAHAMSON >>>
                       -< Is there a full moon tonight? >-
    
   > Don't know much about the anti-christ brought to you by Parker Brother,
   > but I've found that anything from runes to crystals, to swinging a dead
   > chicken over your head in a paper bag at midnight during a full moon is
   > ok, as long as it helps you explore things about your own spiritual
   > awareness. 

    Hey! I tried that and it didn't work. Oh, hell I musta' forgot the
    chicken. B^)
    

    
    .32 
    
    	Actually, the full scale version of that saying is
    
    
    		Perception is always reality,
    
    		Reality is seldom perception.
    .33
    
    	Try adding a little humility and a pinch of garlic to the
    	chicken. Also, it helps if there is a full moon and an open
    	mind. %=}
    

    
    Just a few comments,FWIW. I have experimented with the Ouija for 3
    years now. My observations are that there is an energy manipulating the
    pointer,what that energy is,and,where its coming from,I dont know. The
    Ouija has been around for many centuries,in different forms,so,Parker
    bros. only put it in better form. Being in the toy department means
    nothing,other than that is where they decided to put it. I have had
    many bad things told to me,and,even threats at times,but,was not
    intimidated by it,and,I never had anything bad happen because of it. I
    also have had many interesting contacts as well.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    re .17
    
    Where did you get this message of love? See Acts 19 for an example of
    someone who misused the name of Jesus. 
    
    Reference a concordance about the discipline and punishment. The fact that
    children are punished does in no way diminish a parents love. See Revelation
    2 and 3 for punishment for those he loves. 
    
    Note also the number of times evil spirits and demons were cast out by 
    Jesus. No mention of any good spirits other than the Spirit of God Himself.
    
    If your God is nothing but gushy love and everything goes if it feels good,
    then the God of the New and Old Testaments is not your God. That God 
    includes trials, suffering, punishment, etc. as well as a deeper and more 
    eternal love than the human mind can imagine. 
    
    Legalistic/fundamentalistic. Really. Name-calling. OK, how about
    heretic, denialism, self-centered/serving. etc. See, that really does
    not get very far. The Legalistic label is a pretty popular one these
    days for those who start with themselves and see how God fits as
    opposed to starting with God and see how *I* fit. The Love that Jesus
    came to communicate included total obedience, even unto death. Jesus
    was commanded to die on the cross. Doesn't fit very well with your
    loving God, does it? Like it or not, if you are His, disobedience will
    be punished.
    
    Jamey

    Re.(whichever - Morgan)
    
    Mikie,
    
    You need a _rubber_ chicken.  It works much better and saves a life in
    the process.  We used to have one hanging over a cubicle and called it
    the rubber chicken conference room.  Lemme know if you need it and I'll
    look around here...
    
    (;^)
    
    Cindy 

    .36 Jamey,
    
    	"...if you are His, disobedience will be punished."
    
    	Then If I am not his, my disobedience will **NOT** be punished?"
        
    	Your logic seems very circular.  By the way, labeling something
    as "fundamentalistic" is not necessarily purjuritive (sp?) Whereas
    calling someone self-centered or self serving or heretic are likely
    to be highly emotionally burdened labels especially when used in 
    ignorance.  
    
    	I sure would like this irrelevant conversation carried on elsewhere
    so we can continue with the intent of this note.
               
    Ernie
    

      Beware the fear merchant who has ties that bind,  

      they like to entangle you up in your mind, now all 

      move in step don't get out of line, the god that is

      theirs, will never be mine. To be yourself is better, 

      than playing pretend, at least you will have been you,

      when you come to your end. Each should pursue, people

      similar in kind, and see who you are in the world that

      you find. Let the murders sleep one eye open in bed,

      the rapists together all feeling the dread, the thieves,

      barricaded with locks on the doors, the liars together will

      never be sure. You reap what you sow, together you'll be,

      with others like you, me with others like me. Those that

      pretend, are wasting their time, for always they'll be

      with others in kind. So beware the fear merchant, who

      entangles the mind, unless of course your similar in kind.


                           George Ducharme

    .36
    
    Jamey,
    
    I find your comments interesting, and you really seem convicted to
    what you think.
    
    You mention a great deal about the old and new testaments. I have read
    them, and find them interesting. Another thing I found interesting was
    the fact that they were done about 300 years after the fact, and
    financed by the people did the nailing. There are also rumors of
    other writings that were kept out of those books because they didn't
    fit with the local politics of the church at the time. In particular,
    there is no mention of a particular sect of people that Jesus would
    have had to have contact with living in those times. The omissions can
    be as interesting as what is put in, sometimes. I find it interesting
    to read both sides of an issue and then think about what I've read. It
    doesn't make me any smarter, just a bit more tolerant of what other
    people think.
    
    Another thing to think of is the level of understanding of the people
    at the time. Men just about owned woman and children. They had a value
    slightly above that of the rest of his posessions. They could be killed
    if they didn't confrom to his and the communities standards. Beatings
    were normal and sometimes expected.
    
    Were I a God, and given that I would like to get some very basic messages
    about right and wrong and love and God and a few other somewhat
    controversial issues over to this group, I would lay things out as
    close to the existing values as I could, and hope for the best. Maybe
    that's why I'm not a God.
    
    Times change, and so does our ability to understand and accept new ideas
    (I hope). If it were to all happen again, the messages would be the
    same, but in terms we could understand now. The cross could be AIDS,
    George Bush could wash his hands, and Jesus could be a 31 year old
    divorced black woman. What difference would it make if the basic messages
    were the same?
    
    Jerry   

    re .40
    
    reminds me of a joke.
    
    Ole Beuaregard finally kicked the bucket and left the plantation to his
    boys and went on through the pearly gates. One of his ex-cronies found
    hime a couple of days later shaking in fear in a cloudy corner. When
    asked what was the matter, Beauregard said: 'I am in big trouble. I
    just saw God....and she's black'. His buddy assured him that it was OK,
    Her mercy endureth forever.
    
    Jamey

    Re.(Janordby)
    
    Hi Jamey,
    
    Oh NOW I know where I've seen your name before!
    
    (;^)
    
    Cindy

    let's stay on the topic,huh?
    
    I own a ouija board that I've had for 25 years.  It is very old and 
    looks to be one of the first made in our era....  it is of solid
    wood, not pressboard, and has a veneer on top....maple?maybe?
    
    Anyway, I too have had a troublesome experience or 2
    I haven't used this for years, yet it still resides in my
    home... any one want to buy a very old ouija?
    
    send
    mail 
    to 
    LEDS::MORRILL

    Greetings,
    
    Just a few comments on Ouijas and spirit contacts ...
    
    I think there is an essential difference between opening onesself up
    wide (arbitrary experimenting) and having high spiritual intentions
    and purpose during the process of experiencing these connections.  If
    somone allows any old thing to come through, without prayer and good
    intentions, then any old thing will come through, including negative,
    obnoxious messages.
    
    During the past year, I have experienced channeling -- through others
    and through myself -- and have observed that praying for the most wise
    and loving connection almost always translates into a wise and loving
    connection.  We can control what comes through by being clear about
    intentions and purpose.  And depending on your concept of God, praying
    to God and channeling are *not* contradictory.
    
    In general, there are many misconceptions about channeling -- that we
    "lose control" and "go under" and so forth.  These misconceptions stem
    from irrational fear over, and a refual to try to understand, channeling.
    My understanding, according to what I have read and experienced, is that
    negative/offensive messages originate from spirit vibrations that are 
    closely associated to the "lower" levels of the spirit dimension --
    those levels that border on the physical plane, those that could
    be termed "crude" and "dense."  However,  the higher levels contain
    the more positive, wise, and loving vibrations.
    
    Given that, my understanding also is that certain kinds of vehicles for
    connecting correspond to / attract the higher or lower levels.  For
    instance, just about everybody I know who has used a Ouija board has
    received several negative messages.  On the other hand, channeling 
    usually involves positive messages (unless one does not state
    intentions/purpose).  In high school, I used a Ouija board just for
    fun, and of course received many insults.  I try to avoid them. 
    The Runes and Tarot serve as much more reliable oracles.  Automatic or
    inspired writing can also be useful.
    
    Anyway, just my three cents.
    
    .36  Hello Jamey,
    
    I'm baaaaaaaaaak!   8^)   Although you and I seem to have debated
    ourselves out in Religion 370, your comments here seem to make me
    concerned and frightened for you... you know, like how you were
    concerened for and frightened for others (and now me) in this topic. :)
    
    What's so offensive about "gushy love," as you put it?  And what is so
    appealing about jealousy, punishment, trials, suffering, chastisement,
    brutal reactions, and so on?  Are you consciously aware of the real 
    portrait you are painting of your Christian faith???  (Sounds like a
    "real" man's religion.  8)  )
    
    I mean, having been raised as Roman Catholic, I know that *even* the
    Church does not play up these negative characteristics, assuming for
    the moment that God really does have a vindictive streak, which many do
    not believe.  
    
    Presumably, you believe that God's nature is incomprehensible and
    boundless -- his loving nature as well as his "other" nature, which you
    no doubt will say stems from love.  However, many of your faith say
    that we should try to live God's nature, and Jesus said love your
    neighbor.  So why shouldn't you/we display the love as much as these
    other things?  Or do you feel love automatically results from jealousy, 
    punishment, confrontation, suffering, and so on?   (Your words seem to
    be tilted heavily in the negative direction.)
    
    How do you live "love your neighbor"?  I would challenge you (urge you,
    if challenge is too strong) to try to say something in these conferences
    to indicate what "love thy neighbor" really means.   Otherwise, your
    attempts to make others understand Christianity (as you know it) could
    backfire with this vindictive picture you are painting of the "one 
    true God."  
    
    Sorry if this is not relevant to the topic, but it was important to me.    
    
    Take care,
    Paul
    

    Paul .44,
    
    As one who is also studying and developing as a channel for spirit, 
    (I refer to it as mediumship), I really liked what you said in your
    perception/experience of channeling, particularly:
    
    > ....depending on your concept of God, praying to God and channeling
    > are *not* contradictory.
    
    and also that many misconceptions exist about the dynamics of
    channeling and how it works.  I don't think there are misconceptions,
    however, because there is necessarily a refusal to understand.  
    I think misconceptions are due more to the fact that there is a 
    lot of misinformation out there.  And some so-called channelers,
    although perhaps well-intentioned, do not adequately understand the
    mechanics of channeling themselves, and then impart their own
    misinformation onto others through books, lectures, workshops and
    readings.
    
    Channeling is a complex, wonderful, communication process available 
    to every person, yet deserving of many years of sincere study and 
    experience to understand - and even then I feel you only scratch
    the surface of its potential.
    
    My understanding and experience with mediumship gives me a slightly
    different view of negative spiritual influences as well.  Rather
    than associating them simply
    
    >....to the "lower" levels of spirit dimension -- those levels 
    > that border on the physical plane, those that could be termed
    > "crude" and "dense".
    
    ...My experience is is that many positive and helpful spirit beings
    also do work in these "lower" levels of spirit dimension.  In fact
    when channeling is done, most physical human beings cannot raise 
    their consciousness beyond the astral plane.  Spirit guides and 
    teachers must then "descend" into the astral plane to make a workable
    telepathic connection with the consciousness of the medium or
    channeler.
    
    My concern is the "bum rap" that lower, (for lack of a better term),
    spiritual dimensions tend to get.  Again due to subtle or blatent 
    misconceptions and incomplete information, we can mistakenly believe 
    that these lower dimensions have little or no socially (or spiritually) 
    redeeming qualities -- which is definately not so.
    
    Karen                                             

    .45
    
    OK, I stand corrected.  I did not mean to convey that there are not
    positive things happening on the so-called lower end of the spectrum of
    the astral, that which is close to the physical, just that the negative
    stuff seems to originate from the lower end.  I also did not mean to
    equate the physical with the negative ... there are/have been high
    vibration spiritual beings (wise spirit guides) who take on 
    flesh-and-blood form.
    
    And I agree there is a lot of misinformation out there, and that
    channeling is a great unrealized potential.
    
    Paul
    

    re .44
    
    EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK!  :)
    
    Thanks for the pointer, I would've missed it.
    
    One thing, Christianity is not for quiche-eaters, AND DON'T YOU FORGET
    IT.   \;o
    
    Nothing wrong with sincere, emotional love. However, there are very few
    who understand loving me (they don't know me, how can they know how to
    love me) and fewer still who understand what it means to love me
    without knowing me. It is much easier to give a hug and an I love you
    in church that it is to love somebody. I guess in the context I was
    referring to gushy, I was also associating insincere.
    
    Roman Catholic!! Now that explains some things :) :) Seriously, I feel
    that the churched has wimped on a lot of things: Heavens, membership
    might drop, or worse, offerings might suffer if we say something hard
    to hear. 
    
    I feel that punishment and discipline are to be expected and
    welcome from God. Don't parents have to discipline and punish children.
    I gotta 2 1/2 year old who has to be disciplined regularly. He also has
    some friends who are not disciplined at all. What a difference. I also
    know that I love my boys more than just about anything there is. In
    this light, I will take the time, energy, and co-suffering that it
    takes to make him prepared to deal with life when he's eventually on
    his own. It is the greatest love that I can think of that God is
    willing to do the same for me. It is not vindictiveness, though I see
    where certain teaching leads to this perception. It is a major
    misconception that suffering and pain are 'bad'. Even in a secular
    concept, all of us are willing to sacrifice in the achievment of goals,
    why would spiritual goals be any different? From my perspective, why
    would I not be willing to suffer any amount on the way to spiritual
    oneness with God?
    
    God is not 'schizo', he has no other side. There are merely pieces that
    you and I do not yet know. I don't mean for the concepts that I am
    pushing to be negative, but I don't want Christianity to be painted as
    a cakewalk either. None of these things produce love, they are endured
    and accepted because of love. I am very jealous about *my* children. I
    know how I would feel if they were toying with the idea of going
    somewhere else to be raised. All jealousy is not *bad*. All discipline
    is not *bad*. Sometimes it hurts, but sometimes it saves a life
    (spanking for playing with matches). I would feel it was pretty loving
    for all concerned if I had to confront my neighbor about his target
    practice with a flame-thrower. 
    
    Much of what you are calling vindictive is a reflection on the American
    culture. Pain and suffering are to be avoided at all costs. What a
    seduction into mediocrity, even at a physical level! This country was
    founded on people who were willing to suffer and hurt for what they
    believed in and what they wanted. Why should the spiritual be any
    different? Sorry if my comments have seemed to imply vindictiveness, it
    was not intended. Nor were they intended to paint Christianity as this
    blissful state of being in Disney World. I trust that God will bring me
    to Him, no matter what the cost or pain that must be endured.
    
    To bring this back to the topic (whew, at last!!): why, if the Holy
    Spirit of God is available, would you want to channel/ouija anything
    else? And why would a jealous God (in the *good* sense) not discipline
    one of *His* own that was 'playing with matches'?
    
    Enough for the moment.....
    
    Jamey
    
    
    

    
    I am not sure I agree with your analogy of "why would anyone want to
    channel anything other than God". Why? Curiousity,interest,desire to
    know. It is all a part of the whole,and,we know a little more than
    nothing about our own universe. So,what makes it wrong?
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    Jamey,
    
    If the holy spirit of God is available why would anyone want to channel
    anything else?  Well, so much depends on your concept of "God" and
    "holy spirit."   If you believe God is the collective divine wisdom and
    energy of everything, everywhere, and if you believe the holy spirit is
    the light/love of God (God component, if you will) residing at the core
    of every creature -- which you do not -- then you know that God
    dwells within everything and the holy spirit within everyone.  So,
    channeling one's higher self (holy spirit self), as well as other pieces 
    of God out there, to which the higher self is connected, can manifest in
    very moving spiritual experiences.  It isn't an either/or situation,
    and I am sure "God" understands.
    
    Till later,
    
    Paul  
    

    Jamey and Everyone Else reading this file!
    
    What about the angels who ministered to Jesus when he was in the
    desert, after the tempter left him?  Aren't they good spirits? 
    If you look through the Bible you will find many, many different
    kind of spirits, good ones and destructive ones... 
    
    Keep in mind, too, that all the devil did was offer Jesus a choice,
    just like he offered to Job before him and Paul after him...  The
    devil didn't DO anything bad, unless you think offering choices
    is bad...  Even God gave Adam and Eve a choice, eat the fruit and
    you will get in trouble, so don't eat it...  Adam and Eve got a
    choice, plus a good bit of advice.  Maybe they should have asked
    a few more questions before proceeding down the path they took...
    Maybe you think the devil would be a better fellow if he offered
    the choice, plus told the consequences of making the wrong choice?
    Sigh...  Use your head and your heart and your connection to the
    Lord to help you figure out your choices, just like Jesus and Job
    and Paul did.
    
    As for your children, I feel sorry for them.  I was raised by a
    person who could and did verbalise his punishments of his children
    by the same 'logic' as you are using.  Now I see that he has a
    different personality type (almost opposite, in fact - he's most 
    likely an INTJ - a good surgeon -  while I am an ENFP) to me and 
    to my brother.  And, he and I have not been on speaking terms since
    I married a fellow going to Harvard for his PhD, whom my father
    didn't approve of, so he thought it was his Christian Duty to abandon
    me to my fate....  This was 25 years ago!
    
    As Paul (in Corinthians) said, we are ALL members of Christ's body,
    and this includes your children, and EACH ONE OF US is unique and
    has something unique to offer.  I pray that you are not 'disciplining'
    the uniqueness out of your children, just because they are different
    from you!  That's what happened to me and my brother, and its taken
    half an adult lifetime to find our true 'calling' from the Holy
    Spirit of what our TALENTS are that we were given at birth (if not
    before, but that's not the point of this discussion)...
    
    As for the Ouija Board, the topic of this note, years and years
    ago I was at a party where there was such a board.  I used it once,
    to ask what I should be doing professionally...  It answered "writing",
    and so with the fundamentalist background I had, I was scared and
    I thought the message was from Satan.  That was before I figured
    out that God told Satan to offer temptations to people (see the
    book of Job for confirmation of this), and that its HUMANS who make
    the choice, not Satan, so its HUMANS who are doing evil deeds, not
    Satan (who is simply in relationship with God, too)...  Anyway,
    back to the Ouija board:-  I didn't do any writing.  Years and years
    later, I started writing about an experience I had when I was in
    college.  I hope this will become a book, published soon, and it
    will glorify God, not me, and this is what I am called to do...
    So I felt that there was a good deal of irony in using that Oiuja
    board, because I didn't do what was suggested then as I didn't know
    where the message was coming from, and it was only AFTER I had written
    the first draft of my book, 10 years later, that I remembered the
    incident at the party.
    
    This is a longwinded way of saying that I think everything you need
    to know from the spirit world IS in the Bible...  I didn't need
    the Ouija Board to tell me what to do with my life and I wouldn't
    rely on it anyway.  Direct prayer to God through our advocate, Christ,
    is fine for me.  
    
    Just curious, too...  What spiritual path is the Ouija Board from,
    originally -  (Tarot is from Quaballah, which is part of
    Judeo-Christian tradition, for example)?
    
    Ruth
                                             
    
    p.s. Jamey, have you read That Man Barnhouse?  High on the Christian
    Best Seller List for a long time in the middle 1980's?  Even he
    had to lighten up on his 'fundamentalism' - age, experience, his
    walk with the Lord, taught him a few things that you could learn
    from...

Re .51

   "As for your children, I feel sorry for them.  I was raised by a
    person who could and did verbalise his punishments of his children
    by the same 'logic' as you are using."

That seems a harsh judgement, especially since all Mr. Janorby said about 
disciplining children was that children, for instance his 2 1/2 year-old son,
need discipline.  He said nothing about his degree or methods.  We do not
know if he whacks the kid with a coal shovel, issues demerit points, speaks
firmly to him, or uses cold glares.

Concerning Satan's temptations of Christ, yes, they carried implied choices, 
but that does not mean they were "just choices" and ethically neutral.  For 
instance, Satan urged Christ to worship him; in the Judeo-Christian ethical 
system, only God has the right to ask for worship.  It is wrong for anyone 
else, for instance Satan, to do so.

Earl Wajenberg

    re .51
    
    Ruth,
    
    Sorry I am so long in replying. I don't get into this one very often
    these days.
    
    Please read my entry again. I am sorry to have evoked such a strong
    response from you about your relationship with your father. I think you
    may have been reading something into my words that is not there.
    
    For example, I don't consider it 'valuing uniqueness' when JD tosses
    his mashed potatoes across the dinner table to see if they will stick
    to his brother's face. If you feel that discipline in this case or in
    cases where deliberate disobedience would be dangerous would be
    destroying valuable uniqueness rather than teaching safety and
    responsibility, I am afraid we will really cross wires. 
    
    Jamey