Conference 7.286::red_sox

	Oops.

	I did a "copy" of the title of the previous season's note and then
	pasted it into the "Enter title" space when I finished the note,
	and changed the year to 1997.  But when I did that, I didn't realize
	that the "e" was missing from the end of "note" [title ran over the
	end of the screen], so I pasted the title into a SET NOTE/TITLE
	command and added the "e" but this time forgot to change the year.

	Oh, well.

BZ reported that with two outs in the top of the ninth the Sox

doubled, singled, walked, walked, walked, hit batsman, infield single for the go
ahead winning run.

Don't think they won it as much as the Angels lost it.  O'Leary got the
game winning RBI.

zamboni

Valentin went 3 for 4 and was in the middle of what I assume was a 6-4-3 (or
5-4-3) double play.

Burns

    Valentin's DP was a liner to second and he doubled of the runner
    [Alicea?] off first.
    

    The news this morning said Valentin made an awesome diving stop too,
    but they didn't have video. I have to admit I wasn't up until 2:00+ AM
    watching it, so I guess I'm not a true fan.

    
    	Ok, so they lost a game.
    
    	Big deal, it was bound to happen eventually.  The winning streak
    	couldn't last forever.
    
    
    
    	8^)
    

Randy Johnson will pitch against the Red Sox tonight.  It should be on 
free TV.

Jim

I'd have to think that the Big Unit has the intimidation factor going real
strongly in his favor tonight.  Let's see, he's probably the hardest thrower
in the league, he's normally a bit wild, and he hasn't pitched in almost
a year!!!  

I'd tuck a bit more padding in my ear flap!

Dan

    Been awfully quite in here of late (if you ignore the ticket note HAHA)
    Sox pulled 1 out last nite against the A's.   Jefferson hit 2 two run 
    dingers.   Val made a spectacular play ranging far behind the 2nd base
    bag & backhanding a hot grounder, leaping up while turning & hit Mo
    with a toss to get the batter by a eyelash!   Bragg his a Grand Slam
    that was a "thing of beauty to behold" as some old, dead poet once
    said.    Final was Sox 13, A's 7.   1 more road game then the Home
    Opener!
    
    /ed
    
    
    
    

    Must have been quiet at the game last night, too.  Attendance was
    listed as 9,010.
    
    	Ted

  At this point the BoSox appear to be 1/2 game out of 1st place.

  Considering where they were this time last year and that they are on the
dreaded west coast trip, things could be worse.

  George

    It seems a team needs to be able to pound on poor pitching to compete
    with the west division teams. Since the Sox bats showed little in
    spring training, I'm very pleased with the road trip so far. The bats
    have shown thunder and the team has shown the ability to come back.
    Bragg seems to be putting up a good case to be the fulltime center
    fielder.  Starting pitching has varied, and the bullpen has been awful,
    but that lines up with all the teams in the west division.

    
    
      Anybody got a score. If so put it behind a FF for those taping.

	It would be interesting to see if Bragg could be the everyday
centerfielder. He sure is trying harder than Mack to have the job.

    
    	Today:
    
    
    
    	Well, it's actually 3-3 now.  Must be the bottom of the 7th.
    
    	Homepage says bases loaded [OAK] also.
    
    
                                     R  H  E  LOB
    
         Boston           000 010--  1  8  0    7
         Oakland          000 011--  2  6  0    7
    

    
     Did anyone happen to see that only 746 people showed up to see the
    White Sox - Toronto game yesterday.....
    
     Must have been mighty cold.....
    
     john

    The temperature was 34 degrees at game time. 
    
    How many fouls go into the stands per game, 40?  With 746 fans, that
    would mean 5% went home with a lucky souvenir!  

    
    	Yesterdays game was suppose to be a night game. Since they
    cancelled Tuesday nights game because of the cold. The changed
    Wednesday game from a night game to a day game. So the fans didn't have
    much notice in the change of game time.
    
    Ron

Yesterday the bullpen collapsed again.  Trlichek (sp?) walked in the winning run
in the bottom of the 10th after (obviously) loading the bases with walks and
hits.

Burns

Clemens won again.  5 2/3 scoreless innings before going out 
with a cramp in his leg.  He was pitching in the cold in Chicago. 
I'm looking forward to him pitching in Fenway later this year.

Jim

    RE: .21
    
    I thought ole Rog had a "groin problem" that knocked him out of the
    game?
    
    I blame this on the obviously incompetent Toronto Front Office not
    providing a space heater behind the mound.

    
    Groin problem, just like he's had the last couple of years...
    
    When are the Sox going to dump Eshelman???  The guy's a bum.
    

    
     No way stat man say both he and Trilicheck (sp) are superior
    releivers.

    
    	Don't forget Heathcliff "I never met a batter I didn't try to allow
    	to get into scoring position in the late innings" Slocumb.
    

    
    Shawn, I like the p-name!

4-4 is pretty good considering who they played.  I think this is a 
.500 ballclub at best.  

Jim

    
    	RE: .26
    
    	Thank you.
    

    
      Noticed in the Boston Herald this morning, Corsi has been called up
    and Eshelman was sent down.

    
    	.27 - Could be better than .500 if the bullpen is made stronger as
    the year goes on...it's about time Corsi was called up.
    
    	I like this team, the makeup of it, they battle to the end, and
    Jimy Williams isn't afraid to go against the book, and manage by
    right/left.  He isn't afraid to take chances.  Also the fact that there
    is no more preferental treatment on the team...do you hear me Jose????
    86-76 is my prediction for final record.
    

    Oh yes, I can hear you...
    
    Jose

    
     Does anyone have access to a radio/tv/internet...and be nice enough to 
    post updates for today's game? If you could it would be greatly
    appreciated!
    
     john
    

    
    	For anybody going to Saturday's game. They have moved the start of
    the game from 6:05, to 12:05.
    
    Ron

Yow!  Thanks for telling us.  I'm one of those going on Saturday.

Burns

    
    
    	Middle of the 1st, 0-0. Avery struck out first batter, put out
    	2nd batter, walked third batter, fourth batter flied out to LC.

    

    Bottom of 1st

 Nomar struck out
 Valentin flies out to left
 Vaughn struck out

SEA 0
BOS 0


Top of 2nd

  Buehner singles to right
  Blowers strikes out
  Wilson doubles to left
  Davis hits broken bat ball to Avery,who gets Buehner out in a rundown,
	Wilson stays on 2nd, Davis on 1st.
  Tinsley singles to left, runners advance 1 base
  Amaral doubles to left, 2 runs score
  ? pops up to left

SEA 2
BOS 0

    

    
Bottom of 2nd
  ? strikes out
  Naehring walks
  Cordero flies to right
  Pemberton grounds out to short

SEA 02  2
BOS 00  0


Top of 3rd
  Rodrigez homers into left field screen
  Martinez lines to short
  Buehner strikes out
  Blowers fouls out to catcher

SEA 021  3
BOS 00   0

	

Bottom of 3rd
  ? strikes out
  Mack singles to center
  Mack picked off by Johnson
  Garciaparra strikes out

SEA 021  3
BOS 000  0
  

Top of 4th
  Wilson walks
  Davis singles to left
  Tinsley pops out to catcher, who has to push the umpire out of his way
    to make the catch in back of home plate
  Amaral strikes out
  Espinoza singles to left, runner held at 3rd
  Rodrigez pops out to pitcher's mound

 SEA 021 0  3
 BOS 000    0

    
Bottom of 4th
  Valentin hits homerun to left on 1st pitch
  Vaughn hit by pitch on elbow
  Stanley hits into double play, 4-6-3
  Naehring walks
  ? grounds out to 2nd 

 SEA 021 0  3
 BOS 000 1  1

Top of 5th
  Martinez singles to right
  Buhner hits into double play, 1-4-3
  Blowers grounds out to 2nd

 SEA 021 00  3
 BOS 000 1   1

    
Bottom of 5th
  Pemberton walks
  Hasselman hits into a double play, 6-4-3
  Mack strikes out
 
 SEA 021 00  3
 BOS 000 10  1


Top of 6th
  Wilson grounds out to 3rd
  Davis flies out to right
  Tinsley flies out to left

 SEA 021 000  3
 BOS 000 10  1

    
Bottom of 6th
  Garciaparra lines out to 1st
  Valentin homers into left field screen (2nd today!) 
  Vaughn singles into center
  Stanley strikes out
  Naehring grounds out to 2nd   

 SEA 021 000  3
 BOS 000 101  2


Top of 7th
Jim Corsey replaces Steve Avery to start the inning  
  Amaral singles to right
  Espinoza bunts out to pitcher, runner advances to 2nd
  Rodrigez grounds out to 3rd
  Martinez intentionally walked
  Buhner singles to center, Amaral scores
  Cirento bats for Blowers, Henry replaces Corsey, Cirento strikes out

 SEA 021 000 1  4
 BOS 000 101    2

    
Bottom of 7th
 Ayala replaces Randy Johnson to start inning
  Cordero grounds out to second
  OLeary replaces Pemberton, walks
  Hasselman strikes out
  Jefferson replaces Mack, lines out

 SEA 021 000 1  4
 BOS 000 101 0  2

    (sorry, work got in the way here ;^)
Top of 8th
  Wilson reaches?
  Davis reaches 1st on error at 3rd
  ... run scores ...
  Tinsley makes 3rd out

 SEA 021 000 11  5
 BOS 000 101 00  2

Bottom of the 9th:

2 out, Bragg on 2nd.  Garciaparra up.  RS scored in the 8th, now 5-3 Seattle.

It's over.  Nomar made an out, I assume.

Burns

    
Bottom of the 8th
  Garciaparra walks
  Valentin flies out to left
  Vaughn singles to right, Garciaparra goes to 3rd
  Stanley singles to center, Garciappra scores
  Frye pitch runs for Stanley
  Naehring pops out to short
  Cordero strikes out

 SEA 021 000 11  5
 BOS 000 101 01  3

Top of 9th
 Slocumb starts the ninth
  Rodriguez strikes out
  Martinez doubles to right
  Buehner ?
  Someone pops up for infield fly rule, ball is dropped, runner on 2nd steps
	off and is tagged out
  
 SEA 021 000 110  5
 BOS 000 101 01   3

Bottom of 9th
 Charlton starts the ninth
  Jefferson? strikes out
  Hasselman strikes out
  Bragg pinch hits, walks, advances to 2nd on wild pitch
  Garciaparra strikes out to end the game 
  
 SEA 021 000 110  5
 BOS 000 101 010  3

    
    
    
       Wally the green Monster???   Bahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

    
    	I guess Wally was put in for the kids...at least we all know the
    new assignment for Johnny Pesky!!!!

    We were there yesterday for Kids Opening Day.  It's obvious to
    me that this opening day is aimed at the 4-5 year old child - not
    someone who's in the 8-11 year old range.  My two sons were literally
    snickering over this rotund "monster" coming out of the scoreboard.
    Plus the singing acts they had, plus the sesame street theme, left
    these two baseball "kids" asking "Can we go to the souvenir stand
    while this is happening?".  
    
    In my day as a kid (late 60's early 70's), baseball became your life
    when you were 7 or so, and took on a reverence through the first
    year or two of high school (until other things started becoming
    interesting).   You loved going to the park to get the early-season
    giveaways, seeing old-timers, getting autographs, watching batting
    practice, etc.  Now, what you get is a bunch of 30-something moms
    and dads pushing their 3-5 year olds right up to the edge of the field
    to have Bert and Ernie autograph their kids' red sox baseball.  Big
    gimmick for yesterday was giving away tickets to Sesame Place and
    free tickets to a circus (which I never say numbers drawn for, btw).
    To me, this was a circus.
    
    Yep - I've been to minor league parks, where they have odd events
    during between-innings - but those are fun for all ages to appreciate.
    I think they should rename "Kids Opening Day" to "Pre-Kindergarten
    Mall-based Yuppie-led kids opening day", and then make a REAL kids
    opening day, where baseball is the theme, and kids who are learning
    the game (or have heros and experience in the game) see something
    special that's related to baseball.  Maybe give away a trip to
    Cooperstown?  Nah - that wouldn't draw the 30-something crowd in like
    yesterday.
    
    Oh, yea - the game was actually great!!  My son learned that it DOES
    pay to catch a fly with 2 hands - thanks Mr Bragg - glad it didn't cost
    the team anything!!
    
    andy
    
    ps - just for the record, I have 3 sons - 11 and 8 years, and 4 months
    old.  And I have spent more of my share of time in malls buying yuppie
    items for our kids.  But, come on - this is Fenway Park and this
    is Baseball!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    

As much as I dislike the Coke Bottles, I really detest (along with 
my 10 and 12 year old kids) this Wally mascot.  I am beginning to 
think that the Red Sox management do not have a clue about building
baseball fan loyalty.  I expect we will soon see the aerobics 
instructors to lead the seventh inning stretch and music and sound 
effects between plays.  I wonder if Wally will also be pitching in 
on player relations and contract negotiations?

Jim

    Here's my observation of this team after 1-1/2 weeks.
    I believe the starting pitching will be ok, a little above the A.L.
    average. I'd like to see Avery or Gordon become a #1 pitcher though.
    Wasdin could be a great pickup. Suppan adds depth in Pawtucket.
    Middle relief with Henry, Corsi and Trilicek has the chance also 
    to be above average. Lacy and Hudson in Pawtucket could also help this
    year.
    Slocumb as a closer is solid.
    The hitting has been solid but I think that Mo needs some protection.
    Without a top slugger in Pawtucket or Trenton a trade for a RF with
    power probably is the only way out. 
    The IF imho is the best in the A.L. Solid at all positions with nice
    depth.
    The Of needs a RF more then a CF (Bragg). Darrin Jackson becomes a
    possibility down the road.
    Hasselman has been OK. Better then I thought. Hatteberg also looks
    pretty good.
    They should be able to compete for at least a wildcard. It doesn't look
    like there are any super teams in the AL East. 
    Cleveland looks like the AL fav. But it's early.
    
    Mike

    
    Is Mr Gimbel the man behind the Monster?

    
    They do have the sound effects between plays now.  I was there Friday
    and Saturday, and though the coke bottle is a little obnoxious, I would
    rather see that than hear Queen's "We Will Rock You", like I heard
    several times during the game.
    
    I never thought I'd see that crap at Fenway, could always say "glad
    they don't do that at Fenway" when I would hear it on my TV while
    watching a game at another ballpark.  The fans would always know when
    to cheer the team on, start a chant, etc.  Now the PA queues the fans
    to follow the "boom boom clap".....which the fans follow for a few
    seconds, then fade out as soon as the PA stops.  It was totally lame. 
    
    Dave
    
    PS: my Dad didn't take me to Fenway until I was 7.  By then, I knew
    what the game was, and was totally focused on the game while I was
    there.  My son is 3, and though I want to take him, I won't until he is
    mentally ready.  I don't want to take him to the park and entertain him
    with anything except the game.  This year I may take him to a minor
    league game....

Living in Maine, the first time I went to Fenway I was about 19 and drove myself
(and my then-girlfriend/now wife).

Burns

    .50 - interesting observations. I think this team might gel, too,
    unless DD creates a revolving door situation again and defuses the team
    spirit.  I am most excited about two things - the play of Valentin at
    second and the pitching of Wasdin. The Sox may have one of the best
    infields in baseball figuring offense + defense.
    
    .5* - I watched these "Nickolodeon"-type nonsense slip into TV,
    pro-basketball, minor league baseball.... it was only a matter of time
    before it hit major league and the Sox.  Gak.

RE                       <<< Note 663.54 by RICKS::BROWN >>>

>    .5* - I watched these "Nickolodeon"-type nonsense slip into TV,
>    pro-basketball, minor league baseball.... it was only a matter of time
>    before it hit major league and the Sox.  Gak.

  It's nothing new. Are you old enough to remember why the Dodgers were called
"The Bumbs"?

  George

re: .50
>    Here's my observation of this team after 1-1/2 weeks.
>    I believe the starting pitching will be ok, a little above the A.L.
>    average. I'd like to see Avery or Gordon become a #1 pitcher though.
>    Wasdin could be a great pickup. Suppan adds depth in Pawtucket.
>    Middle relief with Henry, Corsi and Trilicek has the chance also 
>    to be above average. Lacy and Hudson in Pawtucket could also help this
>    year.
>    Slocumb as a closer is solid.

I think the pitching is highly suspect.  The staff is next to last in 
walks issued.

>    The hitting has been solid but I think that Mo needs some protection.

I don't like all those shutouts.  The AL pitching is not THAT good.

>    Without a top slugger in Pawtucket or Trenton a trade for a RF with
>    power probably is the only way out.

No argument about the need to find a solution beyond Pemberton/O'Leary
(especially Pemberton who was described as fielding balls like they 
were live handgrenades).
 
>    The IF imho is the best in the A.L. Solid at all positions with nice
>    depth.

I'd take the Baltimore IF over the Red Sox IF.

>    The Of needs a RF more then a CF (Bragg). Darrin Jackson becomes a
>    possibility down the road.
>    Hasselman has been OK. Better then I thought. Hatteberg also looks
>    pretty good.

Hasselman is 1-11 at throwing out runners.  I'd like better, but it may 
be a problems with the pitchers holding runners.

>    They should be able to compete for at least a wildcard. It doesn't look
>    like there are any super teams in the AL East. 
>    Cleveland looks like the AL fav. But it's early.
    
This is really hopeful.  Pick three from Seattle/Chicago/Cleveland/New York/
Baltimore/Toronto/Oakland that Boston will beat out.  I think a run at 
third place in the AL East is more realistic with a little entertainment 
thrown in (and I don't mean Wally).

Jim

    Yeah Boston fans like to sit in 90 year old stadiums with 80 year old
    seats that were built for 5'-6" 145 lb people. Said stadium has about
    35,000 seats which 15,000 are decent but the majority of seats either
    require you to bring binoculars if you want to see the batter and/or
    require 2 weeks of chiropractic therapy for your neck after watching 
    a game. This same stadium have the men relieve themselves in cow troughs,
    and parking that not only is the most expensive in the country, but
    makes Foxboro traffic seem like a day at the park. 
    Giant Coke bottles are necessary because of the lack of a new stadium
    that would bring in more revenue so the sox could compete with the
    other teams in their division is being held ransom by the mayor of Boston 
    wants a rebuilt park only halfway over the Mass Turnpike. 
    
    People in stupid green costumes is a way for baseball to try and and
    get kids back in the stadium after the idiots who run baseball have
    alienated the fans with two strikes and World Series game that no kid
    could watch because of his bedtime. It's for kids for crying out loud.
    And Snippets of insipid rock songs are for people like me who if they
    wanted to hear organ music would visit Funeral Homes at night at pay
    last respects to noone that we know.

    
>>    The IF imho is the best in the A.L. Solid at all positions with nice
>>    depth.

>I'd take the Baltimore IF over the Red Sox IF.
    
    Just focusing on this - why?  There isn't _one_ IF on the Orioles I'd
    take over their equivalents on the Sox (though there's a good case for
    Alomar, I must admit).  Naehring > Ripken (at this point in time),
    Garciaparra >> Bordick, and Vaughn and Palmeiro are very close to the
    same player.
    
    Joe

    >This is really hopeful.  Pick three from Seattle/Chicago/Cleveland/New
    >York/Baltimore/Toronto/Oakland that Boston will beat out. I think a run at 
    >third place in the AL East is more realistic with a little entertainment 
    >thrown in (and I don't mean Wally).
    
    Right now their isn't one AL East team without major questions. The
    Yankees seem to be getting a lot of injuries and their pitching staff
    misses Rivera in the setup role. The O's pitching is thin and Could
    give them trouble. The Blue Jays hitting is not that strong. I don't
    think it's hopeful. They have a good team. in the age of expansion
    there are no super teams left.
    
    Mike
    
    

    > "The Bumbs"
    
    I'm probably old enough, but I don't remember probably because I was an
    American League bigot, actually, just provincial. 

    >Pick three from Seattle/Chicago/Cleveland/New
    >York/Baltimore/Toronto/Oakland
    
    That's easy enough - Chicago, NY, Toronto, and Oakland.
    
    Joe

    
>>>    The IF imho is the best in the A.L. Solid at all positions with nice
>>>    depth.
>
>>I'd take the Baltimore IF over the Red Sox IF.
>    
>    Just focusing on this - why?  There isn't _one_ IF on the Orioles I'd
>    take over their equivalents on the Sox (though there's a good case for
>    Alomar, I must admit).  Naehring > Ripken (at this point in time),
>    Garciaparra >> Bordick, and Vaughn and Palmeiro are very close to the
>    same player.
    
Ripkin/Naehring - Ripkin is a gold glove man and never misses a day (two 
	things that cannot be said for Naehring).  Despite his conversion
	to third base, I'll take Ripkin any day.

Bordick/Garciaparra - Less clear on this one.  Bordick is solid (you'd have 
	to be to displace Ripkin).  Garciaparra is unproven, but looks like 
	he might be the AL Rookie of the Year.  I'd probably take Garciaparra.

Alomar/Valentin - Not even close.  Alomar is probably the best fielding 
	second baseman in the MLB and is often a leader in the batting title.
	Valentin will be a very good second baseman, but he is no Alomar.

Palmeiro/Vaughn - Palmeiro is a much better fielder than Vaughn (and that is 
	not any high praise).  Vaughn will hit for more power (although he 
	has not got his first RBI this year much less a homer), but will also 
	strike out a lot more.  There is also the question about whether 
	Vaughn can hit in the big games.  I'll take Palmeiro.

Overall, the Orioles IF is MUCH better defensively and is just as productive 
offensively.  I'll still take the Oriole IF over the Boston IF.

Jim

    
>Ripkin/Naehring - Ripkin is a gold glove man and never misses a day
    
    Good point.
    
>     (two things that cannot be said for Naehring).  Despite his conversion
>	to third base, I'll take Ripkin any day.

    Defensively, sure.  But Ripken's an offensive hole in the lineup (not
    to mention one with enough clout to be in a key position in the lineup)
    whereas Naehring is productive, and good defensively (albeit likely not
    as good as Ripken).  I'd rather have Ripken in his prime, but at this
    point I'd rather hav Naehring.
    
>Bordick/Garciaparra - Less clear on this one.  Bordick is solid (you'd have 
>	to be to displace Ripkin).
    
    Solid?  He's a disaster offensively, and good defensively.
    
>      Garciaparra is unproven, but looks like 
>	he might be the AL Rookie of the Year.  I'd probably take Garciaparra.

    Garciaparra's offense is unproven, which makes it many times better
    than Bordick.  Given that there's every indication that Garciaparra's
    the better defensive player, this one's not close.
    
>Alomar/Valentin - Not even close.
    
    Actually, it is...
    
>      Alomar is probably the best fielding 
>	second baseman in the MLB and is often a leader in the batting title.
    
    No, Alomar is _not_ probably the best fielding 2B.  He's above average,
    though his performance in Toronto wouldn't indicate that due to poor
    positioning.  Valentin, meanwhile, was near the top at SS, so there's
    some reason to believe he might be better than Alomar at 2B.
    
>	Valentin will be a very good second baseman, but he is no Alomar.

    He's not Alomar, but he might be better.  He was better offensively
    in '94 and '95; Alomar held a significant edge last year.  I don't
    really see a good reason to expect Alomar to be significantly better.
    
>Palmeiro/Vaughn - Palmeiro is a much better fielder than Vaughn (and that is 
>	not any high praise).  Vaughn will hit for more power (although he 
>	has not got his first RBI this year much less a homer), but will also 
>	strike out a lot more.
    
    Whoopie.  Strikeouts just aren't _that_ much different from other outs,
    and Vaughn doesn't make many outs - many fewer than Palmiero - while
    hitting for more power.
    
>Overall, the Orioles IF is MUCH better defensively
    
    I disagree.  Slight edge at 3B, clear edge at 1B, but undecided at 2B
    and the Sox win at SS, probably.  The O's may be better, but not _much_
    better.
    
>and is just as productive 
>offensively.
    
    I _really_ disagree.  Offensively, Naehring > Ripken, Garciaparra >
    Bordick (the low end of what Garciaparra might do is higher than
    the high end for Bordick), Vaughn > Palmiero; only Alomar is odds on
    to have the better year, and at that it's no sure thing.
    
    Joe

  On a bright note Brian Rose pitched his 1st game at Pawtucket yesterday going
8 innings giving up something like 7 hits maybe a run. You can do worse than
having your AAA team stocked with prospects learning exactly what you lack on
the major league club. 

  As for Wally and the Coke Bottles, how many people walk into Fenway and
exclaim "Oh no, the view of this quaint ball park is marred by a gas station
sign just over an ugly green wall!!"? I have no doubt that if Nuf Ced McGreevy
and the fans from 1912 came back and saw that ad and the giant green wall that
replaced Duffy's Cliff their comments would be no different than what people
are saying about Wally the Coke bottles today.

  Nor do I have any doubt that if Wally and the bottles stay, 20 years from
today someone will take their kids to the ball park, look at those bottles
and his eyes will mist up as he tells his kids how dad brought him so see
Wally and those bottles back when he was a kid 20 years earlier.

  George 

    
    	I'd like to see Ripken and Bordick, duplicate the plays Naehring
    and Garciaparra made yesterday.
    
    Ron

    I know Dodger was from Trolley Dodger but "Bums" I assumed was
    originally because they were bums for so long.
    
    Why didn't someone take a chance on Valentin when he was available. Joe
    I think we have to write off Valentin's 1996 because of the shoulder.
    Because of his guts he was out there all year to help Kennedy and
    should have been dl'ed for the year.
    
    We saw him opening day and he has the natural moves around the bag. 
    Alomar made one of the great, crucial mistakes on a ground ball to cost
    Baltimore the championship last year.  Second base is a sigma quality
    position especially at critical times.  Valentin shows a lot of
    promise.
    
    Defense in the outfield and middle relief pitching is the critical
    question for the sox.  Money can probably solve some of this.  The talk
    is for some of the excellent "B" pitching prospects to be moved for a
    playoff berth (chance).

    
    	Another side note about the coke bottles. If I remember correctly
    the green monster used to have ads painted on it like a billboard.
    When the wall was rebuilt and wood was no longer used on the outside,
    the ads stopped.
    
    Ron

RE                      <<< Note 663.67 by MKOTS3::BREEN >>>

>    I know Dodger was from Trolley Dodger but "Bums" I assumed was
>    originally because they were bums for so long.
    
  I'm surprised that you don't know this one Bill. The Dodgers are called
"The Bums" because back when they were in Ebits Field they had a clown dressed
up as a bum that would perform between innings. Was it Emit Kelly or one of
the other clowns, I forget.

  If he wasn't the original mascot he certainly was performing his antics long
before the current wave of mascots. And as I recall when the Dodgers moved
to L.A. and announced they would no longer have that clown it was something
of an unpopular decision. Anyway, what do you bet the first day Walter O'Mally
sent that clown on the field the reaction he got was not unlike the reaction
seen by Wally the Green Monster.

  For a long time I've held that you could build just about anything in any
city and the reaction would be predictable. They could put a giant 30 story
Pogo Stick on a Boston harbor island and the pattern would be the same. At
first everyone would be outraged. By it's 50th anniversary it would be a 
signature of the city and when someone tried to rip it down and it would be
saved as an historic landmark. At it's 100th anniversary the President would
preside and there would be a giant celebration.

  The reason people don't like Wally and the Coke bottles is not because of
what they are, it's because they were not there when their dad took them to the
games. If they were they would be just as much of the hallowed tradition of
Fenway Park as the Wall and the Citgo sign.

  George

    > For a long time I've held that you could build just about anything in any
    > city and the reaction would be predictable.
    
    I agree, George.  Taking it to the extreme, remember the outcry over
    the appearance of the Vietnam Memorial in DC?  It didn't last long -
    now the first thing people ask if you've been to DC is if you saw it.
    
    But, shooting tee-shirts into the crowd is not what I want out of a
    spectator sporting event.

Tip the coke bottles upside down and they look like exclamation points.
Just another indication that baseball (and sports in general) are nothing
but a business.  The owners are not in this for the love of the game like
the fans are.  We will never relate.  Every year its something else to
add to the long list of 'whatever happened to the game'.  Its sad that the
up and coming young generation will see so much of the business point of
view that you have to wonder if baseball as a spectator sport will not be
so popular in 10 years.

They might as well build a new Fenway Park now.

On another note....whatever happened to the woman announcer?  I just assumed
she'd be there for a while like Sherm had been.

    
> For a long time I've held that you could build just about anything in any
> city and the reaction would be predictable. They could put a giant 30 story
> Pogo Stick on a Boston harbor island and the pattern would be the same. At
> first everyone would be outraged. By it's 50th anniversary it would be a 
> signature of the city and when someone tried to rip it down and it would be
> saved as an historic landmark. At it's 100th anniversary the President would
> preside and there would be a giant celebration.
    
    Trust me: in Boston, "Wally the Green Monster" will never attain such a
    status.  In 2-3 years, maybe less, only a handful will remember he ever
    even existed.  It's an act that just isn't going to play for long.
    
    glenn
    

re .71:  Leslie quit a few weeks ago.  She wanted to spend more time with her
(church, was it?)

Burns

Leslie should have stayed with the Church of Baseball. 

Jim

    re .69
    
    George -
    
    I think you're re-writing history to prove a point. The Dodgers did not
    have a clown for a mascot, nor did the nickname "Bums" come from a
    clown. I attended many games at Ebbets Field in the 50's, so I speak
    from personal experience. 
    
    The representation of the Dodgers as a hobo (not a clown) started when
    sports cartoonist Bill Gallo first drew the caricature for the New York
    Daily News. He got the idea from the Brooklyn fans who sometimes used
    the expression " 'dem bums" in referring to their team. The most
    memorable cartoon appeared in 1955, after Brooklyn won their only world
    series. It was a picture of the smiling Dodger Bum, flashing one tooth
    and saying "Who's a bum?"
    
    Emmitt Kelly was a famous circus clown. *If* he ever appeared at Ebbets
    Field, it was probably a one time thing. The only clowns I ever heard
    of appearing in baseball parks in the 50's were Al Schacht and Max
    Patkin, two famous baseball clowns who entertained perhaps once a year
    at various major and minor league parks.
    
    As the one time Dodger, Casey Stengel, used to say - "You could look it
    up."
    
    Dick (A Yankee fan who went to many games at Ebbets Field because his
    parents were Dodger fans.)   
    

  Maybe it was a one time thing but I remember reading about how someone
dressed as a hobo or clown was the bum for the Dodgers. He was always shown
as a Red Skelton like bum and seemed like a logo for the team.

  Granted I have always seen the world filtered through the Massachusetts
press but I'm sure this one didn't come in a dream.

  George

    
> Maybe it was a one time thing but I remember reading about how someone
> dressed as a hobo or clown was the bum for the Dodgers. He was always shown
> as a Red Skelton like bum and seemed like a logo for the team.
    
    And the next thing you know, according to you people were upset because 
    Walter O'Malley didn't bring the clown to Los Angeles.  Dick is right;
    this is pure fiction...
    
    Mr. Breen had the origin of the nickname "Bums" correct, too (it was 
    based in their early futility, and had nothing to do with a mascot or 
    a clown).
    
    glenn
      

  Well it's not pure fiction. I may have misunderstood the role of the clown
or hobo but I distinctly remember seeing the hobo in the papers many times
being associated with the Dodgers.

  We didn't get national league games and had to rely on the papers for news
about the Dodgers but the clown always seemed part of what ever I saw
published. 

  George

    I will agree that the hobo became a symbol like the elephant with the
    Athletics.  But calling them bums came first in my overall
    recollection.  And I'm pretty sure it happened in the 30s.

    
    
    George -
    
    >Well it's not pure fiction. I may have misunderstood the role of the
    >clown or hobo but I distinctly remember seeing the hobo in the papers
    >many times being associated with the Dodgers.
    
    The part about the *cartoon* representation of the Brooklyn Dodgers as
    a hobo is fact. What is pure fiction is all the other detail you
    provided about a "mascot" to prove your point. Perhaps there is some
    guy who grew up in a National League city and remembers the Red Sox
    mascot in the 50's. You remember the guy in the giant sock costume,
    don't you? :^)
     
    Dick
        

    Wakefield masterpiece last night was a shot in the arm. He's pitched
    exceptional in 2 of his first 3 starts. In the last 5 games the
    starting pitching has been great. 
    Mo got his first dinger and Garciaparra and Naehring had great plays in
    the field. They're at 500 now and with the O's in this weekend for 4
    games these games could be big. Hopefully the pitching can keep it up.
    
    Mike

RE        <<< Note 663.80 by SCASS1::STAHLI "Pretentious?.....MOI!!??" >>>

>    The part about the *cartoon* representation of the Brooklyn Dodgers as
>    a hobo is fact. What is pure fiction is all the other detail you
>    provided about a "mascot" to prove your point. 

  I remember seeing an old film of a hobo on the baseball field. Maybe as
you said it was a one time thing but I do remember seeing the film.

  I've never seen a film of a guy dressed up like the old Red Sox logo. I
think the problem is that if you actually tried to design that costume it
would be somewhat obscene.

  George

    Another nice pitching performance by the Sox last night. Sele pitches 7
    inning of 5 hit shutout ball and the Sox win 7-2. Nomar amd O'leary hit
    homers .
    Tough 2 game series with the Indians followed by 4 with the O's. This
    will be a telling 6 games.
    
    Mike

I liked that MLB retired "42" for ALL teams (grandfathering those wearing 
the number today).  In all this discussion of Jackie Robinson, I'm a little 
surprised that there hasn't been more mention of Branch Rickey who managed 
the introduction of Robinson into MLB.

Jim

    
     Besides Mo and Butch Huskey, how many players are currently wearing #42???
    
    also
    
     I noticed that they hung #42 at Shea next to the other retire Mets 
    numbers. Was that just a temporary thing for last night or is it
    something every team is going to do to remember Jackie?
    
     john
     

    
    I attended the home opener with my wife and another couple.  We sat
    in section 42 of the bleachers.  After the game there was to be a
    free baseball giveaway at each of the turnstile exits.  We attempted
    to exit the park via Gate C, the normal bleacher exit.  People were
    backed up and packed like sardines at the gate, waiting for these
    free baseballs.  After about 15 minutes we were told that we had
    to go to another exit to get one; none would be given out at this
    gate.  Now, I don't know of a way to get from the bleachers to
    any other exit rather than Gate C.  Is there one?  Anyway, everyone
    jammed up at this gate just said, "To h--- with it," and left.
    Another nice touch by Rotisserie Dan.
    
    Re Wally, the Green Monster...take a hike!  And the Coke bottles?
    Who cares?  There's plenty of other less-garish advertizing all
    over the park.  Music (other than the organ kind)?...I don't care
    one way or the other as long as they restrict it to between innings.
    By the way, I've been going to the home opener for quite a few years,
    and I've never witnessed a less-enthusiastic one than this year's.
    The crowd was very sedate.  A couple of young girls stood on top
    of a railing in the bleachers and attempted to get a "wave" going.
    They gave up after about five minutes.  And no one threw anything
    at them either.  One of these girls was quite attractive, too.
    You would have thought we all were at a golf match rather than
    opening day.
    
    	Lou
    

>    inning of 5 hit shutout ball and the Sox win 7-2. Nomar amd O'leary hit
>    homers .

Well, actually Hatteburg hit a homer and was credited with a double, while Nomar
hit a double and was credited with a homer.  Hatteburg's "double" was actually
off the center field camera, clearly on a trajectory that would have taken it
out.  Nomar's "home run" bounced off the hand of a fan reaching up and out.  It
seems to me it would likely have hit the fence, not the stands.

Burns

I was at the home opener and it was announced at least twiceon the PA
that the baseballswould be given out at the turnstiles.  They also made
a point of saying that they would stay there until EVERYONE who wanted
one got a baseball.  However, the ball was the "Home Opener 1997" ball
and not the "50th anniversay of JR"that was what I thought we would
get.  I guess that ball was handed out on Sunday at the Kids Opener. 
One problem with the bleachers is that you rarely see the announcements
that are put up on the scoreboard.

Jim

    
    I was in the bleachers, and heard the announcement.....had no problem
    getting out, but then again I exited through Gate C.  Does Duquette
    really deserve to be blamed for things as trivial as long lines at the
    turnstiles?
    
    Dave

>    Does Duquette
>    really deserve to be blamed for things as trivial as long lines at the
>    turnstiles?
    
    No, but the failure of bleacher fans to hoot and throw things at pretty
    girls, well, that's pure DD... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    
    	I notice that as the Red Sox are winning, all the DD bashing is
    slowing down, espically by the knights of the keyboard.  The ones that
    said that he made a bad call on putting Nomar at SS and Val at 2B are
    very, very silent these days for some reason.  
    	Not to mention the ones who said that he screwed Jim "16+ ERA" when
    he sent him down to the Paw Sox....
    

    Well the pitching let down a little last night but Mo and the offense
    took control. Cleveland is off to a slow start but their offense sure
    is scary. Glad the Sox are playing them now and not in a month or so
    when they should start heating up.
    
    Mike

  Way to go Mo. He's finally out of the slump. One dinger in the screen, and
another in the bullpen.

  I believe that's 4 in a row for the BoSox.

  George

    
    Yep, I've attended all the Red Sox home losses this year ;^)
    
    Avery apparently hasn't pitched too effectively yet this year....on
    Opening day he settled down after a few innings, but he got slapped
    around quite a bit.  Good to see the offense (especially Mo) give some
    serious run support....otherwise, Sox starting pitching has been pretty
    good so far.
    
    Dave

    Did someone in or out of the media question putting Garciaperra at ss?
    I know of no one.  There was debate about where to put Valentin or to
    trade him.  Keeping Frye, allowing Williams to keep him was a good move
    and showed Duquette is smarter than last year.  Last year and what he
    specifically did is what he generally is criticized for.

I think the real question for Duquette was why he waited until after 
the start of spring training to move Valentin.  This was an obvious
thing to do, but instead Cordero played all of winter ball at second
base and Valentin was told that he was going to play shortstop.
In my opinion, the move was not the issue, it was how it was handled.

Jim

re .96:  The Duke may be getting blamed for Williams' decision in that case.  I
think Jimy did not know either Val or Nomar.  He probably should not have opened
his mouth about who is ss was till he did see them.

Burns

    Jim hit the nail on the head. I went back and read the thread
    of notes in the topic where a lot of us discussed this. All
    the replies I reviewed, either mentioned that Val should shut up
    and play, or mentioned that Duquette could have handled his
    interpersonal interaction with Val better. No one that I saw in
    the notes thread criticized the Duke for approving the move,
    making the move, telling Williams what to do...none of the above.
    It was the appearance that between Duke, Williams, and Val there
    was a communication breakdown, and that if the real intent by
    Duquette/Williams was to move Val to 2b, they could have prepared
    him for it by telling him earlier in the winter.
    So as far as people in here being quiet about this, it's been a closed
    issue ever since Val picked up his glove and started playing at
    2b.
    
    nuff ced,
     2
    b  :)

Watching the pre-game ceremonies of Sunday's game, I was embarassed *for*
the Red Sox organization for such a lame and poorly done attempt to stir
up young fans' interest in the game.  Like some previous notes have said,
7- and 8-year olds in the crowd looked completely bored, if not disgusted,
and the whole ballpark was like a morgue.  It almost looked as if the
security guard was trying to get Wally off the field to save any further
embarassment.

That said, I don't see it as the next straw towards ruining baseball as it
used to be, etc., etc.  As others have also said, apart from the pleasing
dimensions of Fenway Park, and the beauty of the field itself, the place is
a dump.  I've scrunched my slightly-overweight body into those crummy seats
enough times to attest to that.  The fact that the Sox are doing things in
an attempt to market their team, assure future fans, and work toward building
a decent ballpark is no problem to me.  Do I like the Coke bottles?  Don't
really care.  Do I like Wally?  No, but judging by the fan reaction so far,
he will just go away in the near future, never to be heard from again.
Some things fail, but at least they are trying.  The sad fact is that
baseball teams have to do this kind of stuff to assure that they can put a
decent team on the field.  Let's roll with it and hope for a World Series
win before they tear the old, beautiful dump down.

Dick

  It is curious that the mascots are so popular at the AA level but get such a
bad reaction in Fenway. At minor league games the people cheer, everyone gets a
kick out of the acts they do between innings and the kids go absolutely nuts
chasing the mascot around the park. 

  George

I've seen some mascots that had some personality.  Wally was going 
to be a tough sell in any case, but when he looks like a rip off 
of the Cookie Monster and Oscar the Grouch with a timid personality
I don't think it had a chance.  I think an outrageous mascot would 
have had a better chance - climbing the ladder and doing a dive off 
the green monster during 7th inning stretch might have been amusing 
or taunting (sp?) the pitchers in the visiting bullpen or leading 
the grounds crew in racking the infield - but not some timid little 
monster who is trying to avoid scaring any 3 year old who comes 
to the ballpark.  

Jim

  That may be. Most of the mascots I saw had more aggressive cheer leader type
personalities. 

  The Norwich Navigators something-gator and the Portland Sea Dog both made
an enterence racing around the warning track on 4 wheel drive motor cycles. New
Britain's Rock Cat was a "cool cat" with dark shades.

  No doubt this mascot is just filling in while the real one is developing
in the farm system :*)}

  George

    That's because mlb isn't smart enough to move the mascots up thru the
    minors a level at a time.  They need seasoning at A, serious mascot
    competition at AA and a stint at Pawtucket at serious mascotting to
    prove they're ready for big mascot show.  And none of this middle relief
    mascotting, they need to go the whole nine.
    
    The best mascot I ever saw was the original BC Eagle.

    
    I don't see anything wrong with Wally. He is only going to be at Fenway
    Park on special days. It isn't like he is going to be there to get the
    crowd into the game.
    I have attended Worcester Ice Cat games and Scratch the mascot is a hit
    among ALL people, not just kids. He roams through the stands and the
    kids just follow him.
    
    Give Wally a chance....
    
    Jim

    Tough loss last night against the Tribe. Runners at 2nd and 3rd with 2
    out, bottom of the 9th, down by 1.......... doesn't get any better than
    that! (unless Jefferson gets a hit)
    
    The O's series starts tonight, weather permitting, and is as important
    as an April series can be. The rubber meets the road - Jimmy Key.

    
    I have a question about last nights game...Why the hell didn't
    Williams pinch hit Jefferson for Stanley?  I admit I am not a 
    big Stanley fan but that aside Reggie should have been pinch hitting
    then.  The other thing that upset me about the last inning was why
    they did not have O'Leary bunt?  He squared around on the 1st pitch
    and never again.  He even had a perfect situation for the bunt with
    a 2-0 pitch that Mesa had to throw right down the middle.  (He had
    thrown 6 straight balls at that point).  
    
    I know Jimy Williams manages "on hunches" sometimes but last night's
    situation seemed way too obvious to me.  Last nights hunch did not pay
    off.
    
    CF

	No one will ever be perfect, and it is too early to know if Williams
will be any good or not with his hunches. But Williams hunches can't be nearly
as bad as Riggleman's. :-)

I've never been much of a supporter of managers who play hunches.
Baseball is a game of averages and percentages where the team 
that makes the best small decisions over a season wins a few 
more games than those teams that play hunches (LaRusa being perhaps 
the best at this).  That said, I would not consider Jimy as a 
manager that plays a lot of hunches - I just don't think he wants 
to say what his reasoning was.

Jim

    As long as Williams doesn't sink to the level of playing hunches
    that Joe Morgan did, I think we are spared from cruel punishment.
    
     2
    b

    
    
    	Playing percentages sounds good over the long haul, but all that
    matters is here and now...i.e. Jefferson hits .XXX vs righties, but how
    will do against Jose Mesa when the counts 3 and 2.  Who can answer
    that???
    
    	LaRussa and Weaver were pecentage managers whose teams were the
    best in the game but managed to lose 2 out of 3 World Series.
    

RE                     <<< Note 663.110 by BUSY::RSTPIERRE >>>

>    	Playing percentages sounds good over the long haul, but all that
>    matters is here and now...i.e. Jefferson hits .XXX vs righties, but how
>    will do against Jose Mesa when the counts 3 and 2.  Who can answer
>    that???
    
  Well I don't have that but I do have the following from the Stats Inc
note book:

  Here are Mesa's numbers last year against

                            AB     H   HR   RBI     Avr
    Left Hand Batters      133    30    2    12    .226
    Right Hand Batters     136    39    4    13    .287

  Here are Jefferson's left right numbers:

    Left Hand Pitching      50    16    1     9    .320
    Right Hand Pitching    336   118   18    65    .351

  George

    
    	And $20 says that Stanley doesn't even come close to either of
    	those numbers.
    

    
    Re a few back about the free ball giveaway at the home opener...
    
    There are turnstiles at Gate C, and I heard that the balls would be
    given out at the turnstiles.  This was obviously to control the 
    crowd, forcing them through turnstiles one-by-one to get their
    souvenir.  However, the turnstiles at Gate C which I passed through
    on the way into the bleachers were mysteriously shunted aside at
    game's end.  The crowd was milling around waiting for the balls to
    arrive, and when they subsequently announced that balls would not
    be given away at Gate C, the crowd groaned and slowly filed out.
    As a previous noter remarked, "blaming long lines on Duquette is
    ridiculous."  I was not blaming any long lines on Duquette.  The
    crowd was there "waiting" for the giveaways.  When the Sox (and
    thereby Duquette) reneged on giving the balls out at Gate C, that
    was the problem.  It was basically saying, "everyone will get a
    free baseball except those people in the bleachers."
    
    Big early series with the birds starting tonight.  Hope the rain
    holds off.
    
    Lou
    

    .108
    
    >>>>>>>That said, I would not consider Jimy as a
    >>>>>>>manager that plays a lot of hunches
    
    
    Williams said he "relies more on his gut feeling and instincts
    than on conventional baseball wisdom".  Mo reiterated this on the
    radio (WEEI) the other day and said that Jimy made it clear to them
    that was how he was going to manage the team.
    
    I really don't have a problem with that but I think he messed up
    last night.  How he had a gut feeling that Stanley would come through
    in that situation is beyond me.
    
    Oh well
    
    CF

    For those of us who have to work up here in Cow Hampshire, could we get
    an update on todays Sox game, and you can skip the STUPID marathon
    results.
    FAST EDDIE

    
      Sox are ahead 4-0 top of 7th. Cordero hit a 2 run homer in the 4th

    
    	4-2 now, top of the 8th.
    
    	Baltimore is threatening to tie, with runners on 1st and 3rd and
    	the go-ahead run at the plate.
    

    
    	Three outs ... someone struck out [Incaviglia?].
    

    
    	Onto the 9th.
    
    	Stanley pinch-hit for Jefferson [again] and flied out to center.
    
    	Eesh.
    

    Sox win 4-2.

    
    	Sele gets the win ... 3-0, 2.55 ERA.
    
    	7 BB by Boston pitching, none scored.
    
    	Cordero leads Boston with 11 RBI's this year.
    

    I believe Naehring has more rbi's than Cordero.

Sorry for the late entry, but in response to the question about last
Thursday's game Vs. the Indians, the reason that Williams couldn't use
Jefferson to hit for Stanley is that he would have had to use Jefferson
at first base since he put in a pinch runner (Pemberton) for Mo Vaughn.
If Jefferson hits for Stanley he wouldn't have been able to go into the
game without losing the DH.  I was thinking the same thing as I was watching
the game.  Stanley was in a slump and that was a key at bat.  Someone else
should have been batting.  I may have taken the risk and had Jefferson hit
in Stanley's spot.  If the game ends up tied then go with the best fielder
available at first base.  It's not the most technical of positions.  Was
Naering not available that day?  He's played first before hasn't he?  

Dan

Here's the starting lineup for today's game.  I see real balance
in the Sox attack - the HRs and RBIs are spread out.  The offense 
is doing well despite that fact that Mo, Val, and Wil haven't kicked
in yet. 

I also notice that the lefthanded platoon players - Bragg, Jefferson, 
and O'Leary are MUCH better than the righthanded platoon players -
Mack, Stanley, and Pemberton.

Wasdin deserves a few wins.



Boston                                Cleveland
                       AVG  HR  rbi                          AVG  HR  rbi
Nomar Garciaparra SS  .349   3   12   Omar Vizquel SS       .301   0    7
John Valentin 2B      .162   2    5   Tony Fernandez 2B     .318   0    4
Mo Vaughn 1B          .262   3   10   Jim Thome 1B          .315   3   12
Reggie Jefferson DH   .385   3    9   Matt Williams 3B      .230   1   10
Tim Naehring 3B       .303   5   15   David Justice LF      .339   4   11
Troy Oleary RF        .360   2    8   Manny Ramirez RF      .292   3   12
Wil Cordero LF        .271   4   11   Brian Giles CF        .250   2    6
Bill Haselman C       .294   1    8   Kevin Mitchell DH     .174   4    9
Darren Bragg CF       .340   3   11   Pat Borders C         .400   1    2

John Wasdin Rhp (0-0, 3.72)           Albie Lopez Rhp (0-1, 6.17)
    

    
    	Garciaparra was 4/4 yesterday with a leadoff HR.
    

    
    	Here is the latest Red Sox score, behind a FF. I'm not listening to
    the game, just caught it off the web.
    
    Ron
    
    
    
    
    Red Sox 5, Cleveland 2  --- Bottom of the 6th

    
    
    	Sox 5-4, bottom of the 7th, Clev w/men on 1st and 3rd...Corsi
    coming in for Rick "The Arsonist" Trilicek...

Bases loaded, one out, Ramirez at bat, score tied 5-5 (gulp)

Sorry, bottom of the 7th!

bottom 7th, wild pitch, Thome scored from 3rd, runners on 2nd, 3rd. One out
score 6-5 Tribe. Ramirez intentionally walked to reload the bases for Franco
with Mitchell on deck.
(double gulp)

    
    	Clev now ahead 6-5 bottom of the 7th, bases loaded, Eshelman now
    in.  Make it 7-5 as the bum walked in another run on 4 pitches!
    

Franco walked, 7-5 tribe. Bass still loaded bottom 7th. Mitchell at bat, Alomar
on deck.

Bottom 7th Pitching change, Mahomes for Eshelman. Bases loaded, one out, score
7-5 Tribe, Mitchell at bat, Alomar on deck. 

Bottom 7th, 2 outs: Mitchell singled, Justice scored from third, Ramirez out at
3rd, 8-5 Tribe.

Bottom 7th, two out. Alomar singled, Curtis scores from 3rd, Mitchell to second.
Vizquel grounded out. Inning ends 9 - 5 Tribe.

Cripes....

Top 8th, Tribe ahead 9 - 5. Frye singled, Nomar at bat, Val on deck.

Bottom 8th, Tribe ahead 9 -5. Nomar struck out (one out) Val at bat, Mo on deck.

Bottom 8th Tribe up 9 - 5. Val popped out (two outs) Mo at bat and
DRIIIIIILLLLED one!!! He and Frye score now 9 - 7 Tribe!! 

Top 8th, pitching change for the Tribe. Plunk in for Asssenmacher with Stanley
up and Naehring on deck. Two outs, Tribe up 9-7.

Top 8th, Tribe up 9-7, two outs. Stanley walked and Naehring stuck out. Gone to
bottom 8th.

    So how did Eshelman sneak back onto the roster?  He threw 11 pitches
    yesterday - one was a strike.
    
    The Sox have had a pretty good starting rotation, but middle relief is
    killing them.  Something needs to happen soon.
    
    		Ted

RE     <<< Note 663.141 by SALEM::LEVESQUE_T "Oh, yeah! The boy can PLAY!" >>>

>    So how did Eshelman sneak back onto the roster?  He threw 11 pitches
>    yesterday - one was a strike.
    
  The Sox called him up when they put Wakefield on the DL.

  He had been doing ok at Pawtucket, after 2 weeks he had 6 innings pitched
2 saves and a 1.50 ERA.

  George

	What happened to Wakefield?

    
    
      I saw where Wakefield was questioned about his elbow and he said he
    was fine pitching on Thursday or whatever next day he's on the DL.  Do
    you think the Sox are trying to weed out their middle relieve by trial
    by fire/sink or swim method?  Not that I think its such a bad idea to
    try and dump some of the middle relieve guys.  Trileck, Mahomes, Esh.
    Mike Maddox was no Greg but he was better than those 3.  Yea Esh is a
    lefty but if you can't find the plate who cares.

  Eshelman wasn't having problems finding the plate at Pawtucket. Granted it's
AAA but even there the strike zone is the strike zone. He'll probably spring
back.

  As for the rest of the pen the Globe quoted Jimy as saying he'd talked to
Duquette about getting some help with relief. They still don't want to put
Suppan in the pen, Jimy seemed to indicate that they'd rather have him starting
games in Pawtucket.

  Nomar comes through again. Could be the start of something big in Beantown.

  George

I only could stay awake til the middle of the 11th last night.
I caught on the CNN sports ticker that the Sox won.  What happened
and how long did the game go?

Thanks

    
    	From the home page:
    
    
    The Boston Red Sox defeated the Orioles 2-1 in front of 40,000 fans
    tonight. The Red Sox had a 1-0 lead going into the 8th inning when Jim
    Corsi gave up a lead off home run to Chris Hoiles. The Sox had a golden
    opportunity in the top of the 9th when Wilfredo Cordero led off the
    inning with a single to right field. Cordero then moved himself into
    scoring position when he stole second base with one of the Sox hottest
    hitters up (Garciaparra). The Red Sox unfortunately left Cordero at
    second when Garciaparra struck out swinging. Fortunately for the Red
    Sox, Garciaparra had another at-bat coming to him in the top half of
    the 12th inning. Nomar hit his 4th home run of the season and extended
    his hitting streak to 10 games. It was then up to the Red Sox relief
    corps to finish the job, and they did just that.
    
    Red Sox closer Heathcliff Slocumb had done a nice job in relief earlier
    in the game and kept the Red Sox alive in the game through 10 innings.
    Slocumb entered the game in the 8th and pitched 2.1 innings, gave up
    only 1 hit and walked two batters. Rick Trlicek took over the relief
    duties in the bottom of the 11th inning and pitched a scoreless inning.
    After giving up a 1-out line single to Incaviglia in the 12th, Butch
    Henry came in to pitch for the Sox and got Chris Hoiles to bounce into
    a 6-4-3 double play. The Red Sox and Orioles will play the second game
    of the 4-game set tomorrow evening.
    

  Not only did Nomar hit the game winning home run he started the double play
that ended the game. Henry only had to throw 2 pitches to get the last two
outs. 

  The beginning of another Boston Legend.

  George

Hmmmm.  I just checked sportsline.com and it said Stanley hit
the home run.  I guess you get what you pay for.

  It was Nomar. Gill Santos and the folks at WBZ showed us the replay a couple
times this morning.

  George

    So far, Butch Henry has been the most pleasant surprise on the pitching
    staff.  This coupled with Hammond's starting performance last night,
    are very encouraging.  Even Trilicek pitched relatively well and he has
    been involved in a lot of decisions [3-4] on the season so far.  I wish
    some of the starters had a bit more luck - they leave a game ahead, and
    end up with a no-decision.
    
    The announcers were talking last night that with the extended innings
    that Slocumb threw last night, that he might not be available for a day
    or two.  I hope that doesn't end up hurting.  The bull pen could use a
    starter going deep into the game, but I'm not sure about Gordon
    tonight.  He unravelled very quickly last Sunday after an error by
    Vaughn.  Hopefully he can put a quality start together and give the
    team a solid 6 or 7 innings.
    
    Sure would be nice to have a Rhodes-type pitcher to come in and shut
    the other team down.  I went to bed at the middle of the 11th expecting
    the worst and was pleasantly surprised with the win.  I thought this
    one would be one of those that we shouldn't win, but after blowing the
    5-0 lead in Cleveland the other day, this one makes up for it.
    
    I think the Sox turned 3 DPs last night...all SS-2B-1B.
    
    	Ted

    Anyone want to join me in chipping in some money to buy Corsi a one-way
    ticket to ANYWHERE BUT THE SOX BULLPEN!!!????!?!?
    
    Maj

    Jim Corsi ? According to the media and some of the players he was the
    missing ingrediant when DD started him off in Pawtucket. 
    Seriously I think Corsi will come around. Mahomes should be #1 out of
    there with Trilicek nt far behind.
    With all of the innings put in by the pen last night I hope Gordan goes
    the distance tonight. If not watch out.
    
    Mike

    
    	Well, Boston has lost two straight now ... 2-0 and 14-5.  Back-to-
    	back HR's by Vaughn and Stanley in the first inning weren't enough
    	today.
    
    	Wakefield on the DL, Eschelmann recalled.  Corsi struck by a ball
    	on his pinky finger and is considered day-to-day.
    

    
    	This is much better.
    
    	13-7 win, 5 HR's, Haselman gets 3 2B's and a HR.

I was at the Thursday night game in Baltimore - nice ballpark!
The 2-0 loss pointed up some of the real weaknesses of this 
team.  First, Valentin should have scored when he was on third 
with one out and a ball was hit deep to the right field corner.
Valentin thought the ball was in for extra bases and was trotting
home.  When the ball was caught, he didn't have time to tag and
score.  Major league baseball players should be thinking of 
tagging whenever there is a ball hit deep with less than one out.
This cost a run.  Finally, when the Orioles scored, there were 
two out when the Red Sox called a pitchout on attempt to steal 
second base.  I don't understand how a pitcher can give a huge 
jump to a baserunner on a pitchout.  If you guess right on a 
pitchout, the runner should be out regardless of how fast he is.
To make things worse, Cordero looped in the throw on the following 
single which allowed the runner to take second on the throw to 
the plate.  Again, bad fundamentals leading to runs.  

Jim 

    
    	Mahomes was designated for assignment and Rich Garces was recalled.
    Mahomes is out of options. Thus, must either be traded within 7 days,
    placed on waivers, or released out right. If Mahomes clears waivers,
    the Sox can then assign him to Pawtucket. Where Pat can either accept
    his assignment or elect to become a free agent.
    	
    
    Ron

    
    
    >>>>>>Again, bad fundamentals leading to runs.
    
    -.2
    
    
    I agree.  I've noticed a total lack of fundamental baseball
    recently.  The other day I was watching on TV (I forget which
    game it actually was) but Mo was on 1st and someone hit a line
    drive down the line in right.  As Mo was 3 or 4 steps around
    second base he was still looking back in RF for the ball instead
    of looking at the 3rd base coach.  Now I know major leaguers ALL
    do this but I cannot understand why.  It's one of the first things
    you learn when running the base is to look for the coach, not at
    the ball.  It didn't cost the Sox anything in this case but it
    is something that should not be occurring.
    
    A question....Has Mike Stanley *ever* run out a base hit or
    a ground ball???  I must've missed it if he did.
    
    
    CF

    
    
      Well thats one down two more to go. Mahomes probably won't clear
    waivers and if he does my guess is he'll elect to become a free agent.
    Now its just Trileck and Esh.  Although Esh had a decent outing on
    either Thursday or Friday, but there lies the problem, he is
    consistanly inconsistant.  Didn't see/hear the game on Saturday
    thank god but did listen in yesterday.  Avery didn't have it but it
    was one of those days for Mussina also.  Sox bats took the heat off
    the pitching and all is well.  

    >                               As Mo was 3 or 4 steps around
    >second base he was still looking back in RF for the ball instead
    >of looking at the 3rd base coach.  Now I know major leaguers ALL
    >do this but I cannot understand why.  It's one of the first things
    >you learn when running the base is to look for the coach, not at
    >the ball.
    
    It could be what with the new manager & coaches, that some of
    the players simply haven't gained confidence in their coaches...
    or worse, they already have discovered, (as in Mo's example),
    that the third base coach is not paying attention either, and is
    gazing off into the distance instead of getting the runners attention.
    Another example of this apparently happened over the weekend when
    Valentin ran thru a stop sign at third during one of the weekend
    games (I think it was the Sunday game). Apparently Val thought he
    could make it home and ran thru the sign. 
    So who is the Sox third base coach? Has anybody who has gone to
    home games this season observed whether the 3b coach is really 
    doing his job, or is he going through the motions?
    
     2
    b
    

The 3rd base coach is Wendell Kim.  Supposed to be good, and when I looked at
Fenway, he always seemed to be working with the runners.

Burns

 CH68 did a nice little piece on Wendell Kim before yesterday's game.

    
    He also sprints to the Red Sox dugout from the 3rd base box after each
    inning.
    
    Dave

 Does some neat card tricks, too!

    
    	RE: .163
    
    	Not a very good sign, is it?  I mean, if he were to sprint TO the
    	3rd-base box FROM the dugout I would tend to think he wanted to be
    	there.
    

  Question is, when he gets to the dugout does he stop running?

  :*)}
  George

>>    	Not a very good sign, is it?  I mean, if he were to sprint TO the
>>    	3rd-base box FROM the dugout I would tend to think he wanted to be
>>    	there.

Actually, he does sprint to the box, as well.  It's actually kind of funny
watching the players walking, or jogging at best, and this guy with stubby
legs bolting on and off the field.

Dan

    
    Anyone catch the throw that Salmon made to nail Naehring
    at third last night?  Talk about perfect - you cannot make
    a better throw than that one.  
    
    When Tim headed around second, I said "No way should he be running
    on this guy"....Naehrings not the fastest guy around.
    
    
    CF

    I think there were 5 players thrown out on the bases last night on
    outfield assists.  Course the Sox had 3 thrown out, one at home.
    
    	Ted

    
    	Angels' outfielders all had OF assists in that game.
    

    While the throw to the plate beat Pemberton, the replay clearly
    showed a swing and a miss on the tag.  Even the announcers didn't
    say a word about it, but the two angles they showed seemed to
    indicate the missed tag.  
    
    Salmon's throw was a double bullseye.
    
    Jimbo

    
    	Can we put last nights game, on one that got away. Even though
    Valentin did not get an error for his behind the back flip. It cost
    the Red Sox a run, which was earned but should have been un-earned.
    That little mistake changed the pitching rotation the rest of the game.
    The Sox could have had a 4-3 lead going into the 9th. Where Slocumb
    would have then been pitching. Instead Henry was pitching his 2nd
    inning and gave up a run and took the lose.
    
    Ron

>    Can we put last nights game, on one that got away. Even though
>    Valentin did not get an error for his behind the back flip. It cost
>    the Red Sox a run, which was earned but should have been un-earned.
    
    The (accurate) comment from my friend with whom I was watching the game 
    last night (with no sound, so I didn't hear what the NESN boys had to
    say about it): "What an a%$hole..."  Definitely a bush-league play...
    
    glenn
    
    

    
    	Well, another one got away. I think I discovered the reason why.
    Herald article quotesd manager Jimy Williams as saying
    
    	"Oh, we're still cometeing. I still really enjoy watching our team
    play."
    
    	And also:
    
    	"We had a shot in the ninth, and that's all you can really ask
    for."
    
    BULL - You can demand far greater things! It's always this kind of
    attitude that will sink this team. 
    
    ed

    It may sound like Williams is coming across like he isn't
    demanding as much as he would like the Globe readers to believe.
    However, put yourself in the position of a major-league manager
    who has to say something to the media. You can't sound too 
    up-down from day to day, nor come across as too uptight or intense.
    You're the captain of a ship, you have to keep an even keel.
    otherwise things and people's (team members) emotions start swinging 
    too wildly, and things will un-ravel. It's a long season, and a
    manager has to keep that in perspective. Now in private (spell that
    away from the media glare), I'm sure Jimy will have ample opportunities
    to light into selected individuals who need it without embarrassing
    anyone excessively.
    
     2
    b

    
    Well, I'm tired of this in all sports. Noone ever says anything
    anymore. I think that this mediocre talk actually does affect their
    attitudes. 
    
    ed

    Ed, look at it another way. If you were Jimy, would you get
    yourself in a lather, and watch your BP elevate itself on a 
    daily basis, and then have to repeat it all over again for 
    the benefit of the media, or would you rather keep your cool,
    save wear & tear on the old ticker, and blow off the media
    by telling them some nonsense which they may or may not believe?
    Then on chosen few occasions make sure to tell the offending
    player in private to get his a$$ in gear or he's gone. :-)
    
     2
    b

    
    	The former!
    
    ED

    
    If Jimy's into ass-kicking, yesterday he'd have to have started with
    himself, for leaving Wasdin in too long and giving up the HR to Will 
    Clark.  Wasdin didn't have it.  The HR came off his 100th and last pitch, 
    with only one gone in the 5th inning.  The reason he didn't come out 
    was due to a syndrome known as "Starting Pitcher's Decision Appeasement", 
    possibly influenced additionally by Wasdin's complaint that he was 
    lifted too early the last time.

    So, I wouldn't have minded a for-motivation-and-media-benefit tantrum 
    yesterday, so long as Jimy upended the postgame spread on top of 
    himself...
    
    glenn
     

      Glenn if they took him out and say Trilchk gave up the 3-run dinger
    then you would've said "Why did he take him out?". The problem is the 
    relief pitching.....they need to get some better arms in there. Even 
    Slocumb is scary every time out!! This team is going to score runs, so 
    the pitching better clean up their act or we are in for a long summer. 
     
    
     By the way, they should of swept Texas this past weekend. The only 
     thing they have going for them is that there is a lot of parity in 
     the division so far. I must say they are fun to watch.

    I think Jimy desperately wanted Wasdin to go 5, and get out of there
    with a lead.  And despite the bullpen's problems, I think he would have
    brought someone in to pitch in the sixth.  Wasdin is going to develop a
    complex.  He's started 6 games, all no-decisions for him personally,
    but all losses for the team.  In at least 4 of those games, he's
    pitched well enough to win.  He didn't have it yesterday, and
    unfortunately it came down to the one pitch to Clark.  Had that ball
    gone foul, or been caught, the outcome might have been very different.
    
    This game, the pen gave up only 2 runs out of 7 [somewhat of a
    departure from past performances], but again they were just bad enough
    to lose a game.
    
    	Ted

    I wonder if the Starters inability to go 7-8 innings doesn't have an
    effect on the pen. Sele, Wasdin, Hammonds and Avery have done well
    getting into the 6th but can not seem to get into the 7th and 8th
    consistently. 
    Those 2 losses in Texas hurt. 
    
    Mike

	Wasdin had it for the 1st 3 innings. Lost it in the fourth, but got it
back to get out of the inning. Then he got Gonzalez out, which is why he stayed
in. I don't think Jimy did anything wrong. 

	Thrillachek was quite the site to see. Throwing behind the batter like
he did and all I thought for sure would get him the ticket out of here. Send
Eshelman to St Louis and he will be another John Tudor. :-)


Glen

    Eshelman is headed to Pawtucket. Sox call up Kerry Lacy. Hammond
    pitches well again but the Sox cann't hit Appier. Is it almost time to
    panic?
    
    Mike

Notice that Hammond pitched 8.  That is encouraging, at least.

      Ya, but won't he be going to the bullpen once Wakefield is back?   

    Hammond has earned his spot, at least temporarily.  Avery was put on
    the DL with a groin problem.
    
    	Ted

    Nice work by Heath Slocumb again last night to keep things close.
    I'm sick of this "some closers don't pitch well without a lead" 
    excuse...
    
    Jimy Williams was again late in going to the pen, btw.  No possible
    excuse this time.  Gordon had given his 8 solid innings; there was
    no reason for him to start the 9th. 
    
    glenn
    

    
    Tough loss for Gordan last night.  He pitched well and got into the
    9th, but he was victimized by a couple of bloopers which scored
    runs.  Rosado was immense for the Royals.  Heathcliff was his old
    self...ERA is now in the 5.xx range.  Until the relief pitching
    improves, I don't see the Sox getting back above .500.
    
    Lou
    

    I didn't see the game and may be wrong but from the box it looks like
    the key to the game was Goodwin going to third on the single and the
    hitter advancing to second on the throw.  The next batter hit a ground
    ball which would have effectively ended the inning.
    
    Now show me one RedSock getting to third on a single.  Show me other
    major league centerfielders allowing it in Fenway.  Mack is just a
    typical Duquette brain-dead signing handcuffing Jimy.  He keeps
    thinking one of these minor-league types is actually Willy Mays.

>    Now show me one RedSock getting to third on a single.  Show me other
>    major league centerfielders allowing it in Fenway.  Mack is just a
>    typical Duquette brain-dead signing handcuffing Jimy.  He keeps
>    thinking one of these minor-league types is actually Willy Mays.
    
    It was a mental error by Mack more than anything.  The hit was a 
    blooper to the RCF side so advancement to 3B by a runner like Goodwin
    was almost automatic.  The announcers correctly pointed out that no
    one was covering 2B, but if Mack had held up, I think one of
    Garciaparra or Valentin would have beaten the batter to 2B to prevent
    the advancement.
    
    glenn
    

    .The hit was a     blooper to the RCF
    
    Oh!  First class centerfielders wouldn't jump on this?  The key was
    still the advancement to second by the hitter.  This run put KC ahead.
    
    Given the rest of the outfield I would think the Redsox would sacrifice
    whatever hitting they might lose and buy/trade for the best
    centerfielder obtainable.

>    Oh!  First class centerfielders wouldn't jump on this?  The key was
>    still the advancement to second by the hitter.  This run put KC ahead.
    
    The ball wasn't that far out of the infield.  SS and 2B had the best 
    shots.  As for "the key", that's what I said, mental error on Shane
    Mack. 
    
    I'm not defending Mack as a CF.  In fact last winter when you were 
    expressing some optimism, I told you, can hit, but not a CF.  And 
    my first question was about his busted arm, which obviously never 
    got better in Japan.  No big secret.
    
    Nonetheless, the first-class CF is damned hard to find/buy...
    
    glenn
    

    
    In fact, here was the discussion.  Conclusion: you get what you pay
    for (not much).  It's not like Dan Duquette doesn't know this.
    
    glenn
    
         <<< HBAHBA::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CAM_SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                -< Sports 93-96 Archive.  No new notes allowed >-
================================================================================
Note 88.3496                     Boston Red Sox                     3496 of 3730
MKOTS3::BREEN "Sans Doute"                           11 lines  16-DEC-1996 11:32
               -< Big sigh of relief by Duquette (congrats Dan) >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Clemens is the guy who rates top dollar since he clearly will produce
    wherever he pitches.  Smoltz coming from a team where "the winning is
    easy" is not so sure a thing in another arena.  Braves probably make a
    mistake going so high to keep him.
    
    The Redsox btw slipped the signing of Shane Mack a centerfielder with
    past defensive credentials in with the Clements money.  Since without
    that defense it's useless to pay the big money to a pitcher they
    probably did the right thing.  It also shows that it was their plan and
    they probably had white knuckles lest Clemens double cross them and
    take 8 mil out of the limited budget for three years.
    
         <<< HBAHBA::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CAM_SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                -< Sports 93-96 Archive.  No new notes allowed >-
================================================================================
Note 88.3497                     Boston Red Sox                     3497 of 3730
2975::WAUGAMAN                                       18 lines  16-DEC-1996 11:36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>    The Redsox btw slipped the signing of Shane Mack a centerfielder with
>    past defensive credentials in with the Clements money.  Since without
>    that defense it's useless to pay the big money to a pitcher they
>    probably did the right thing.
    
    Shane Mack wasn't playing CF all those years he was aside Kirby
    Puckett.  I'll believe that Mack is a quality defensive CF when I 
    see it (and I know you'll be the first to detail his deficiencies).
    Last I saw of him before he went to Japan, his arm was so bad from 
    recent shoulder surgery that he was practically rolling the ball in
    (and it's not the same game in Japan-- shorter outfields and no 
    running game).  He's also getting up there in years.  I think this
    is another stab in the dark, sign the guy cheap and pray (no that 
    this is so bad-- but it's wise not to expect much either).
    
    glenn
    

    Pretty prophetic Glenn.  But 1.5 mil is not so cheap.  Since a good
    hitting cf would be impossible at that salary I assumed he was here for
    defense.  I assumed Duquette had learned a lesson.
    
    This year will be two playoff appearances in a row that Duquette will
    have gone out of his way not to make.  Since all we care about is
    erasing 1918, perhaps 5th = 4th; perhaps not.

    All the print media seemed to be saying or at least quoting
    Duquette, that Mack was here for his bat, not for his defense.
    
     2
    b

    I remember a lot of talk about Mack being a "gamer" from his old Twins
    buddies and all.  This is code for "lost or never had the skills, but
    his heart is still in it".

>    I remember a lot of talk about Mack being a "gamer" from his old Twins
>    buddies and all.  This is code for "lost or never had the skills, but
>    his heart is still in it".
    
    Mack once was a fine RF, and a very good hitter.  I haven't given up
    on him as a hitter, but as an OF the writing is on the wall.
    
    glenn
    

  Hey, take a look:

    Boston                    IP     H  R ER BB SO  NP  ERA
    Sele W, 4-1               7      5  1  1  3  4 115  3.72

  Ok, not bad. Not Greg Maddux but not bad.

  Sox take the Twinkies. Now let's see if they can do it again.

  George

                                R  H  E  LOB
Minnesota        100 005 040-- 10 11  0   10
Boston                040 000 030--   7 14  1     7


Inning Narrative:

                                                      Red Sox 9th: Aguilera
                                                      came in to pitch for the
                                                      Twins. Garciaparra
                                                      singled (80 feet, third).
                                                      O'Leary struck out
                                                      swinging. Cordero singled
                                                      (130 feet, up the middle).
                                                      Garciaparra advances to
                                                      second. Vaughn struck
                                                      out swinging. Naehring
                                                      struck out swinging. 

[Aguilera struck out the side]

    
    
    		Mo Vaughn has got to be the WORST fielding 1st baseman
    		in the league, can't stop a ball hit right at him or 
    		thrown to him.  He has NO range, and he swings at balls
    		way out of the strike zone.  He looked real good stiking
    		out in the 9th last night.  I can't believe this guy was
    		voted MVP, musta been all that community work!
    
    		Dave

    
    So long as Frank Thomas remains at first, he'll be the worst
    defensively...

    
    
    		I'd trade Mo in a heartbeat for Frank.

    
    On the basis of offense or overall, sure - I'd rather have the Big
    Hurt.
    
    Defensively, though, Vaughn is superior.

    
	re "until the relief pitching improves, I don't see the
	Sox getting back above .500"...

	Wish I could pick horses, stocks or lottery numbers as
	well.

	Lou
>             <<< HUMANE::DISK$SCSI:[NOTES$LIBRARY]RED_SOX.NOTE;1 >>>
>                             -< Boston Red Sox >-
>================================================================================
>Note 663.189            1997 Season Game Discussion Note              189 of 204
>MROA::CESARIO "Vinyl Dinosaur"                        9 lines   7-MAY-1997 09:39
>                             -< Same ol' same ol' >-
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    
>    Tough loss for Gordan last night.  He pitched well and got into the
>    9th, but he was victimized by a couple of bloopers which scored
>    runs.  Rosado was immense for the Royals.  Heathcliff was his old
>    self...ERA is now in the 5.xx range.  Until the relief pitching
>    improves, I don't see the Sox getting back above .500.
>    
>    Lou
    

    So far my record for personal attendance at games is poor this season. 
    Now 0-2, an 11-1 pasting by the Orioles, and now Texas takes advantage
    of the woeful Sox.
    
    Well, the "ace of the staff" [he with the exactly 1 win] didn't need
    any help from the bullpen on Sunday.  He got the Sox into a hole
    quickly, and they never did recover.  Wasdin gave up an unearned run 
    after Gordon left when O'Leary misplayed a flyball, and Garces gave up
    a run later.  
    
    The Sox had their chances early, twice loading the bases and getting
    only one run on a wild pitch.  Texas, on the other hand, got a couple
    of timely hits in clutch situations, and also made 3 sparkling plays on
    defense.
    
    The Sox worked their way back to 8-6 and had the tying run at the plate
    in the person of Jeff Frye, who earlier pinch-hit for Bragg and
    singled.  But this time Wetteland set him down to end the game.
    
    Naehring rattled the coke bottles in the same inning Mo bonked the
    speakers for home runs.
    
    Either Williams has little confidence in Shane Mack, as evidenced by
    using Frye to PH and play defense, or Mack is hurting somehow.
    
    	Ted

They had Wasdin in relief?  Hmmm.  I wonder if they are getting someone else in
the rotation, or getting ready for Avery, or just taking advantage of an off day
(but Monday would not be Wasdin's start anyway, would it?)

Burns

Whoaa...these Red Sox are playing badly.  The fly ball to O'Leary was truly 
a Little League type of error.  The Red Sox outhit the Rangers on Sunday, 
but they put more runs across (I especially liked the Rangers' suicide 
squeeze after the two run triple).  While the Red Sox can hit a little, 
they clearly lack pitching and defense - a prescription for not even 
competing for a playoff spot.  Boston's record in not that much different 
from last mid-May, only this year I don't think they have the players 
to turn it around and have the best record in MLB.  And while all of this
is going on, Clemens goes to 6-0 with an ERA around 2.00 and ties the record 
for most strikeouts in a game by a Toronto pitcher.

Jim

    Mo Vaughn and Frank Thomas are basically the same defensively .....
    very average ........ Thomas is a much better base runner than
    Vaughn ........ both are power hitters and Thomas is (probably) a
    better average hitter ......... I've been a Mo Vaughn fan for as long
    as he's been in Boston, but his defense this season is very poor and
    he doesn't seem to be hustling ........ 
    
    
    greg

	Add in Frank's walks (100+/year) and he is definitely the better one to
have. They both stink defensively. 

What's the record for most K's by a Toronto pitcher?

    
    >What's the record for most K's by a Toronto pitcher?
    
    14
    
    

Piddly.

We had a pitcher that beat that number by six.  Twice, even.

RE   <<< Note 663.211 by MRPTH1::16.34.80.132::slab "labounty@mail.dec.com" >>>

>What's the record for most K's by a Toronto pitcher?

  Of course this can be parsed two ways. If you mean:

  - What's the record for most K's [in one game] by a pitcher who is currently
    playing for Toronto, the answer is 20. But if you mean:

  - What's the record for most K's [in one game] by a pitcher while playing for
    Toronto, it would be something less than 20.

  George

How silly of me to ask such an ambiguous question.

.663 must have flipped a coin and guessed as to what I really wanted 
to know.

8^)

With a 0-9 loss, the Red Sox fall into last place having lost the last 
five in a row and nine out of the last ten.  I suspect that my prediction 
of a 81-81 season was giving them too much benefit of the doubt.  With 
Avery gone, there doesn't seem to be a stopper on the staff, the bullpen 
looks to be one of the worst in MLB with defense still below average.
This is not a pretty sight.  Anybody wanna buy a couple of tickets to 
the 5/27 game against the Brewers?  (I suspect not)  :-(

Jim

	Avery hasn't been a stopper this year at all..... 

    
    
      One losing streak of 9 outa ten in a season of 162 games is really
    just a bump in the road.  I too picked them for a .500 team and I'd
    still place the same bet.  The pen is in shambles most of the year
    and unless that changes, I'm sure it will.  Either DD will make more
    moves or they'll come around, they'll win 7 outta ten and 16-17 outta
    20, be back to .500 where they'll end up.
    
    j/

More was hoped from Avery (and Gordon and Wakefield and...).
I'm afraid that we are going to see another year with very 
large roster turnover during the course of the year.  I think 
this is one area where Dan Duquette needs to improve.  Too 
many roster slots are filled with bargain basement players 
who other teams have passed on because of age, injuries or 
recent performance.

Jim

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this team to win 16-17 of twenty 
this year.  

Jim

  As with most teams that have really good offense and lousy pitching the
team should have lots of streaks depending on whether or not the offense
is hot or cold.

  As for Duquette, again I'm not sure why he'd change the overall plan.
    - The BoSox need pitching
    - Duquette has a reputation of building through the farm system
    - Right now the BoSox farm system is loaded with pitchers

  Take this general bunch of hitters, and as the current pitcher's contracts
run out add Suppan, Pavano, Rose, Pena, Rogers, etc and they should start to
improve.

  George

    The best way to develop pitching is with a team that puts defensive
    execution as the number 1 priority over hitting and everything else.
    Vaughn is a major obstacle here and DD's biggest challenge is making a
    deal for Mo with the PR backlash to follow.
    
    Valentin has to go and a real centerfielder has to be brought in. 
    Pemberton doesn't look like he can play right field in Fenway.  Perhaps
    Cordero should be moved to Right.  If they have to put a bat somewhere
    Left field is it.
    
    Duquette obviously was mentored in Montreal by someone who knew what he
    was doing.

>         -< Not pitching but defensive execution that's killing them >-
    
    Yeah right.  The walks pile up in record numbers, and it's not the
    pitching.
    
>    The best way to develop pitching is with a team that puts defensive
>    execution as the number 1 priority over hitting and everything else.
>    Vaughn is a major obstacle here and DD's biggest challenge is making a
>    deal for Mo with the PR backlash to follow.
    
    As bad as Vaughn is as a defensive 1B, he's not hurting them near to
    the extent as a poor defensive C, SS, 2B, or CF would be.  The impact 
    is not that large.  Mostly because he's not bad at all in taking in 
    errant throws, which can affect the entire infield.
    
>    Valentin has to go and a real centerfielder has to be brought in. 
>    Pemberton doesn't look like he can play right field in Fenway.  Perhaps
    
    By my observation, Garciaparra is a huge improvement at SS, Bragg is 
    at least average in CF, Cordero is surprisingly good in LF (did you 
    see that play he made going back hard against the wall for that line 
    drive on Sunday?), and Valentin is holding his own.  Agreed on RF.
    Haselman has been terrible throwing, but I'm not yet willing to 
    blame him for the handling of pitchers (not when Stanley had the 
    same "problem").
    
    Hell, in recent games, guess who have been the owners of the most
    critical defensive blunders?  On Saturday, it was Heath Slocumb, 
    on Tuesday it was Aaron Sele.  Last night, when Kerry Lacy came in
    and stunk it up, the backbreaker was the ground ball up the middle
    that only he could have reached, had he been in proper defensive 
    position after the release. 
    
    Overall the defense is improved.  The pitching still sucks.
    
    glenn
    

Saying that the overall defense is improved is not high praise 
considering how bad defensively they were last year.  Despite 
having throw out three runners last nights, catching is a major 
defensive hole for this team.  As for right field, I wouldn't 
mind seeing Jeff Fry out there at this point.  As for the rest 
of the team, there are plenty of opportunities for improvement.
I'm willing to give Garciaparra some more time to improve and 
as for Mo, he may not have the athletic skills necessary to be 
a really good first baseman.

Jim

    
> Saying that the overall defense is improved is not high praise 
> considering how bad defensively they were last year. 
    
    It's not high praise, but at least when you look around the league at
    overall defensive execution, I don't think the Sox are suffering too
    badly in this department.  For one thing they're turning the DP well,
    or things might be even worse.
    
    It's the big innings due to walks that are killing more than anything.
    Like last night (even though Wakefield pitched a good game): HBP, 
    single, walk to load the bases, couple hits.  KC was in a great 
    position to win the game without having to do much to earn it.  Sele 
    the night before: HBP, bunt single, bunt single (botched execution by 
    Sele), few hits.  Gordon on Sunday: double, walk, walk, sac fly, 
    hit.  Saturday's fiasco with Slocumb: double, walk, walk, error on 
    pitcher, grand slam on 3-0 pitch.
    
    The pitching staff is leading MLB in walks and that's such a
    fundamental problem as to be glaringly obvious where the concentration
    should be placed.  
    
    glenn     
    

    >I'm willing to give Garciaparra some more time to improve and 
    >as for Mo, he may not have the athletic skills necessary to be 
    >a really good first baseman.
    
    Going into last night Garciaparra was batting .297 with 5 HRs, 7 SBs
    and playing better defense then I have seen a Red Sox SS play in 30
    years. How much better does this kid need to get to satisfy? 
    
    As far as the pitching goes there is no excuse for their number of
    walks. Hell if the batter hits the ball the averages say they'll be out
    2/3's of the time.
    
    Mike
    

    >Going into last night Garciaparra was batting .297 with 5 HRs, 7 SBs
    >and playing better defense then I have seen a Red Sox SS play in 30
    >years. How much better does this kid need to get to satisfy?
    
     I'd second that by saying he's playing better defense than I have seen
     a Red Sox SS play in 40 years.
    
     Maj

I'm willing to blame Jimy for some of last night's debacle.  Wakefield was
doing his usual knuckleball thing.  The HBP didn't try very hard to get out of
the way.  The walk was nearly intentional with 2 pitchouts (called from the
bench, I'm sure.)  Why bother with a pitchout when Haselman can't throw 'em
out even when they do?

So I'd say the hit/walk/hpb was hardly reason to say Wakefield was a goner. 
If you had a proper bullpen, sure...pull him.  But as it is, he may give up a
run, but maybe not 5!

Burns

    Twice last night, the Sox guessed right on a steal attempt and pitched
    out...and Hasselman did indeed throw the guy out both times [same guy, 
    I think].
    
    So while he's not the second coming of Ron Karkovice, he did nail a
    couple last night.
    
    But overall, I agree - our catching staff leaves a lot to be desired.
    
    	Ted

I didn't see the game, but I heard that Wakefield left and relievers 
lost it.  Why'd they pull Wakefield?

  Well, first pitch by the reliever was a single or double resulting in two
runs so I guess Wakefield allowed at least a couple guys to get on base.

  Also, Jimy has been burned this year by leaving starters in too long and
when Wakefield goes bad he can really go bad.

  George

    One guy walked - but 2 pitchouts were called from the bench
    
    and another was a hit by pitch - a lean-in type
    
    and the third I don't recall
    
    
    
    In retrospect, I'd rather have stayed with Wakefield.

The third was a hit.  A blooper to right as I recall.

I did not see the beginning of the game, so I did not know the Hassler had
nailed two.  Maybe the pitch-outs made more sense than I thought.  But my
point remains that out of the three on-bases that chased Wakefield the walk
was really only two balls (since two were intentional), the hit was isolated,
and the HBP was standard knuckle-ball fare and a take-one-for-the-team batter.

Burns

    
    
       WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
         Man that pitcher for Toronto looked great last night. I haven't
    seen someone hit those corners with that pop since circa 1986-89 with
    the Red Sox. The Yankees just couldn't figure him out. Between that
    split finger and the fastball we were outmatched for the first time
    this year.
    
          Wish the Yanks could get pitchers like him.
    
    
    Chap

The Yankees could have had him - they just didn't bid high enough.
Of course, an early $20M offer instead of a low-ball offer probably 
would have kept him in Boston, but he is better off where he is.

Afternoon game with the Yankees today.

Jim 

    I doubt that any amount of $$ would have gotten Roger to NY ...... too
    much negative family atmosphere for him.
    
    
    greg

 ..and so far from home.

    The simple fact is, if Roger had gotten the same contract with Boston
    that he got from Toronto, he would be 4-4 right now, 3.95 ERA. It is
    not that Toronto has better hitting or defense. Roger is out to prove
    something with the new team.

  The Braves announcers took that up the other night. Seems Jeff Blauser has
been having a career year and people have been calling in telling various
talking heads they feel he's doing this because his contract is up. 

  The announcers strongly disagreed with this philosophy. Their reasoning was,
why would a player deliberately have a bad year when his contract was not up
then save it for the year it was up? Wouldn't it be better during contract
negotiations to have 3 good years rather than 2 bad ones and one good one? 

  Fact is, Jeff Blauser, like Clemens, had injuries the last couple years that
took the edge off is game. And even with that Clemens still put up some decent
numbers with the Red Sox. 

  Just then someone blew a pitch past Blauser and struck him out and the
announcer said "would anyone deliberately do that during a non contract year"? 

  George

    And to think where the Yakmee's would be if they signed Jimmy Key. They
    might even be favorites to win it all. 

    
    
       Sox 1   Yanks 0    Top 2nd

RE                    <<< Note 663.241 by TNPUBS::MILANESE >>>

>    I am not sure I agree that 10 wins a year,
>    while you're making 5 million a year, are
>    decent numbers.

  Number of wins is not a great indicator of how good a pitcher really is.
Takes more than one guy to win a ball game. Look at Clemens Numbers from last
year: 

   Name          ERA   W  L SV  IP  H   BB  SO Ratio HR   R  ER  G GS CG GF SH
Roger Clemens   3.736  8 12  0 212 194  94 215 1.36  16   0  88 30 30  5  0  1

  The 212 innings pitched in itself is a good stat. At 30 games that's an
average of 7 innings/game. He allowed less than one hit/inning and got about
a strike out an inning. That's fantastic. His walks may be a little high but
not that bad.

  Also notice of his 8 wins, 5 were complete games. That means the bull pen
was only able to save 3 of his wins. At least that many wins in 30 games have
to be blow outs so it appears the bull pen gave him no help at all to speak
of. As for the ERA, 3.736 wasn't that bad for last year, and when you toss in
the lousy Red Sox defense it's actually pretty good. 

  Gill Santos of WBZ Radio/TV was mouthing off this morning about what a lousy
job Clemens did over the past few years but when you look at the actual numbers
and figure in the injuries he really did pretty good.

  George

    
    The last good year Clemens had was last year.  The year before that was
    another good year...
    
    From 1994 - 1996 there were only 14 starting pitchers in all of
    baseball with a lower ERA.  Any way you cut that, he did a very good
    job.  Pettite on the other had was ranked 41st.  Is he worth the money? 
    Kevin Appier's ERA was 27th.  Mike Mussina was 29th.
    
    Get the point.  Give the exact same performance and Clemens would have
    much better records than these other pitchers if he was on those teams
    instead of the Red Sox.
    
    Marc
    

    Be Still my heart.
    
    Red Sox 8 Yankmees 1  Bottom of the 8th 
    Gordan pitching. Will the Arson squad hold up?
    
    Mike

 Maybe I can call my Yankee fan brother tonight and gloat?

    Gloat ye! Do not passeth up thy golden opportunity to 
    gloat thee a Yankmee fan.
    
     2
    b

You want a close game?

Put Slocumb in.

Red Sox Win 8-2.

Naehring - 4 hits
Cordero - 5 hits, and robs Martinez of a HR
Stanley - 3-run HR

    
    
    I'm thinking Chappy isn't going to be in here today shooting off his
    mouth, and that the claim is that his machine went down yesterday
    during the game and that's why he didn't keep people posted on the
    pasting.

    
    
        Your thinkin wrong.
    
        I left at 3:30 yesterday Groaner, Btw hows that high paid machine
    you call a team doing? They must have 4 or 5 championships by now.
    
       Congrats to you Red Sox fans Gordon pitched a real good game
    yesterday, and David Wells proved why he isn't a good pitcher.
    
    
    Chap

Suppan called up and will pitch on Saturday vs Key?
Mo hit his tenth homer yesterday. Valentin's injury 
is reported as not major, but we've heard that before.

Jim

    
    They're in first place dork, what place are the Yankmees in?

    
    
       Yabbut How many championships have they won this decade?
    
    
    Dork? How mature.

	Can one talk of mature and Grono in the same sentence? :-)

    
    Looks may be deceiving... that's what i told my wife after she had a
    good laugh when she saw Chappy.

"May" covers alot of ground, Paul, so this time you were telling the 
truth.

    
    
      Well we get our first look at Jeff Suppan of 97 today against the
    Yankmees.  Gotta work so if anyone is logged in at home or can pick
    up AM inside please post a few updates.  Does anyone know if this is
    Suppan's "normal" day in the rotation.  I know they have/had to clear
    a roster spot which would likely come from the pitching staff but I
    would like to think the Sox would let him make is 97 debut against a
    lesser pitcher.  First ML start of the year in Yankmee Stadium against
    David Cone.  Well its his first start and its gut check time. 

  Suppan pitched well. Went 6 2/3 innings and only gave up 7 hits, 2 runs.
Only 3 K's but no walks. Not bad considering his 1st major league outing in
'97 was against the World Series champs.

  They seemed to have moved Hammond to the bull pen. He picked up the win in
relief of Wakefield yesterday. Looks like Suppan now has the #4 spot and will
do no worse than #5 if Avery comes back.

  George

    Mo doesn't even compare to "The Big Hurt" Frank Thomas has been the
    best hitter of the decade hands down!!!!

    
    
    Ha, this is too funny.  Chappy sent me mail asking if he wanted me to
    say what he thought of my wife... i said go for it!!

    
    
        But Chappy is too mature to get involved in this LDUC.
    
          I haven't seen this tactic since grade school.
    
    
    Chap

    
    Tactic?  Try reality.

    
    	I happened to run into Paul at the Movie theater over the weekend.
    Anybody wanting comments on his wife, send me mail off-line.  :^)
    
    Ron

     
    	Don't listen to .261, he thinks that Thomas is better than Griffey!

RE                      <<< Note 663.266 by PCBUOA::HOVEY >>>

>    	Don't listen to .261, he thinks that Thomas is better than Griffey!

  They are both great. If they play out their careers the way they have been
going then comparing them will be like comparing Ted Williams to Hank Aaron.
One's bit better at hitting, the other's a bit better with power.

  George

    Look at the totals threw there career so far
    Thomas has 127 less games and 694 less at bats and his #'s are better 
     
    
        
            games   ab      r       h       hr   rbi     BB    avg   obp
    Thomas   930   3291    675    1077     222   729    770    327   458  
    Griffey 1057   3985    695    1204     238   725    504    302   384
    
    
    D.C. 
    [End of buffer]
    

    Who's better ..... Griffey or Thomas.  Man, talk about splitting hairs.
    
    What's certain is that either one is "better" than 99% of the players 
    currently in the majors.

    
    Thomas is a liability in the field, not a disaster but not a very good
    fielder....Griffey plays a tougher position, can do more.....nuff said!

    
    Actually, Thomas _is_ a disaster in the field.  He has no range (not
    a _big_ problem at first base, but it does make a difference) and
    no particular throwing ability.  He's been consistently the worst
    1B defensively in the league since he came up.
    
    Joe

    Anyone else thinking suicide yesterday with Nomar on third and Wilfredo
    at the plate? I know the infield was in but I'd try it.
    
    Maj

	No way. Cordero gets the ball up. So chances were greater that he could
at least have gotten a sacrafice fly. That first pitch he sent foul was a
rocket. Of course striking out didn't help.....

    ditto - I considered suicide, but the sac fly had better odds than the
    bunt against Rivera.  Too bad Wilfredo swung at ball 3. Somehow, being
    a sox fan, I knew when they couldn't push Nomar across it was over.
    
    The Sunday Globe sure makes the Sox farm system sound good.  I wonder?

    
>    Anyone else thinking suicide yesterday with Nomar on third and Wilfredo
>    at the plate? I know the infield was in but I'd try it.
    
    I definitely thought of it.  Only because you also had the runner 
    on second, so if Cordero whiffs on the try, the scoring threat is 
    not completely done.  I forget what the counts were but on 1-0 or
    2-1 it'd have been a play that makes sense.  A tough call, but not
    out of the question against such a tough a pitcher as Rivera to put
    a hard ball in play.
    
    glenn
    
                     

 Suicide??? Hey, guys..it's just a game!

I would have liked to have seen the suicide squeeze.  A failed attempt 
leaves a runner on second with a second chance to win the game.  They 
play too much like the Red Sox always have.

Jim

  How about the time late in the game (extra innings I think) where Mo just
couldn't pull the trigger on Stanton's belt high fastball. Boy was he kicking
himself.

  That right there could'ah been the ball game.

  George

    > Suicide??? Hey, guys..it's just a game!
    
    Not from around here, are you?

 I've been here long enough to know what being a Sox fan is all about...

    Since when does Stanton make a living throwing split finger fastballs?
    
    After seeing him toss those things to the first batter I'm telling
    everyone to move up in the box.....but I didn't see that.
    
    Doesn't anyone on that coaching staff think???
    
    I also think Jimy W. needs to be quicker with the hook.
    
    Maj

RE                      <<< Note 663.281 by DONVAN::SCOPA >>>

>    I also think Jimy W. needs to be quicker with the hook.

  As it was he used every pitcher he had in the pen.

RE Then he should have 12 pitchers

  I think he also used everyone except Benjamin.
    
  George