Conference hbahba::cam_sports

Did anyone see the Marge Schott interview on Prime Time Live lasted night?  Did
she have anything interesting to say?

I was surfing between Prime Time and LA Law, but fell asleep long before Marge
came on.

          
> Did anyone see the Marge Schott interview on Prime Time Live lasted night?  Did
> she have anything interesting to say?
    
    Yes, I saw it.  I remain more convinced than ever that Marge Schott is
    a bigot so ignorant to her own ways and the way she thinks "everyone
    else" is that there's absolutely no hope for her.  Marge believes that
    racism in all walks of life, not just baseball, is largely a creation
    of the media.  She just cannot believe that some people have actually
    been taught or learned what is and is not racist and insensitive 
    behavior and believes that "everyone" uses the n-- word and other slurs
    in their private lives.  Her response to the specific allegations of 
    her vicious comments is not an outright denial but a more telling "not 
    that I recall" or "you would have to believe that's not true" or some 
    other doublespeak.
    
    The amazing thing is that, especially in Cincinnati, most people seem
    to feel sorry for her (and I'm not talking about feeling sad for her
    ignorance, but actually believing in her).
    
    glenn
     
    

    SLAP ON THE WRIST!??!?!?

    She lost control of her business, property, and time because of 
    *something she said*...

    She was fined 25K and has to go to "tolerance training".

    Last time I checked, this was America, land where you can say what you
    want, even if its stupid, and no one agrees with it.

    To think about what has really happened here, deprivation of property
    because someone wanted to use a little free speech, is a disgrace in
    its self...

    I am disgusted, and not politically kerrecti.

    Chip_GSH_Bach

    Marge Schott is an ignorant bigot.

    Having said that, I agree entirely with Chip.  Since when can one be
    deprived of one's livelihood over statements?

    Sad day for America.

    Mark.

    She did get a slap on the wrist.
    
    $25k when she's paying players millions of dollars?
    
    A year "suspension" that's really 8 months plus 4 months behavior?
    
    Not sitting right behind the dugout but in a suite instead?  It's not
    like she can't go to the games.  And that's for what, a month?
    
    She's not managing everyday operations anyway, she hired someone else
    to make baseball decisions for her before that anyway.
    
    What did she lose?

	Since when has MLB considered itself to live under the same laws as
	the rest of the country? From free agency to anti-trust exemptions
	to not letting the Giants move, they have always lived on a
	different planet. This is just the latest example - but this time
	it's a case where the victim of their rules did something wrong. 

	Roy

      Ditto on what Chip said.......

So you guys think that if the chairman of GM said some of the stuff that 
Schott said that they'd get off scott free? My guess is that the federal
govt would be breathing down their necks in 10 seconds looking for 
discriminatory hiring practices and slapping lawsuits and fining them left
and right.

Baseball dropped the ball big time on this one and the other owners should
use every backroom method available to try and force her out of baseball.


Metz

    By not choosing to sue, Marge Schott is preserving all of the special
    treatments MLB gets.  If she was to sue, it could snowball and the
    league could end up losing it's antitrust exemption, and more.
    
    Speaking of the anti-trust exemption, there's a congressman proposing
    legislation right now to strip MLB of that exemption.  Sheez, then
    these big kids would have to learn to operate their businesses like
    normal people.  They'll probably hire some lobbyists and pump mucho
    dinero into some legislators pockets and keep the exemption from being
    lifted.
    
    JaKe
    

    There is a large number of notes in the BASEBALL notesfile on the
    freedom of speech issue. Private groups have much more leeway in
    censoring speech than the government does. That being said I agree
    with Chip.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    > What did she lose?
    
    She was publicly and officially censured and therefore humiliated
    before her peers, not to mention the entire country (and deserved it).  
    I wouldn't underestimate that.  It's probably the most effective method
    of changing behavior there is.  If she'd just been given a massive fine 
    or been stripped of more powers but had the decision sealed and kept
    private, she'd probably have just written the whole thing off as nothing 
    more than a very expensive lesson, an economic matter like a bad free 
    agent signing.  This will stick to her for life...
    
    glenn
     
    

re: Schott

To somewhat restate what Metz said...

You could equate the relationship of the owners and MLB loosly to the 
relationship between a company president and the board of directors.  

Company presidents are bound by the policies and procedrues of their company.
If the president of Digital, or any employee, for that matter, violated the
policies, they would be subject to the stated disciplinary action.  In the 
Schott case, she violated the policies at least twice.  Do that at Digital, 
and you are out the door.

Even more than that, it bothers me that she shows no remorse, or even 
acknowledgement that she is wrong...

=Bob=

	Tommy, what that supermarket manager did was blatant discrimination 
and against the law.  Punishing what Marge Schott said, I have a problem 
with.  If Jesse Jackson and other prominent African American leaders are 
happy with what baseball has done to her they do their constituents a grave 
disservice.  What should be attacked is baseball's blatant discrimination 
in hiring minorities in front office positions.  When National League 
president Bill White said he was working with a bunch of racists, I don't 
believe he just meant Margie.  Punishing what Marge Schott said will not 
aleviate the problem baseball has with minority hiring practices any more 
than banning a record about cop killing will stop the mounting wave of 
violence in our country.
    
    				/Don  

    
    
    	And pray tell, how many sensitivity classes did Jesse Jackson 
    have to attend after he refered NYC as Hymie-town?
    
    	Once again, it is O.K. for someone to burn the flag, call anything
    'art', etc, but when someone makes a comment in a private conversation
    and then gets blasted for it with a suspension, where are all the ACLU
    types?
    
    	Schott probably is racist.  So what.  Many believe Spike Lee and
    any number of folks are racist.  I don't see anyone taking away Spike's
    right to make movies.  Or how about Mr. Thomas after he came out with
    his famous comments about Bird?  Sure he apologized, but weren't those
    comments deemed racist?
    
    	Two edged sword here folks.  The real issue here is freedom of
    speech.  If I can say what I want, who's then gonna say that x is 
    wrong?  Secondly, if would be a really different matter if overt
    racism was part of the Reds infostructure and team.  It clearly is
    not.  So what's the big deal?  So you have a racist owner.  She
    isn't the first nor the last and I'm sure she's not the only one
    including players that is.
    
    	People are always claiming that a rightwing element is out to
    control what we see, hear, and read and that we should sound the
    voice of freedom speech.  Burning the flag is O.K., but calling someone
    a name in private is not...that is only if you're on one side of the
    fence.
    
    	Personally, I abhor racism (I've seen it from both sides) in any
    form, but all this decision does is once again point out the hypocracy
    of the speech issue.  It's O.K. to show a picture of Jesus Christ 
    submerged in a vat of urine, but it's not O.K. to call someone a
    fag or whatever, even if it is in a private conversation.  Go figure.
    
    	If I were Marge, I'd ask Jesse to attend my classes too...
    
    bill..g.
    

    
> If Jesse Jackson and other prominent African American leaders are 
> happy with what baseball has done to her they do their constituents a grave 
> disservice.  What should be attacked is baseball's blatant discrimination 
> in hiring minorities in front office positions.
    
    Jackson and others are doing this.  Jackson has acknowledged that
    baseball's willingness to take such action against bigots represents 
    progress but that Marge Schott is not the main issue; front-office 
    hiring is.  Jackson is also not targeting solely baseball, nor should 
    he be, especially since they don't have the worst minority hiring 
    record.  The NFL does.  Baseball has more black field managers.  
    Baseball has more black front-office personnel (according to baseball
    17% in a game where the players are 17% black-- as opposed to
    football's substantial majority).  Where baseball as well as the other
    sports, including the NBA, falls short is in hiring at the "power"
    positions-- general manager, director of player personnel, director of
    business operations, etc.
    
    glenn
       

    	BillG, for what it's worth I've read quite a few articles in
    sports and non-sports publications about the freedom of speech angle
    with regards to Schott.
    
    				/Don

             
    Who says that it's "okay" to burn flags or depict Christ in a vat of
    urine?  These emotional appeals have nothing to do with the issue of
    how Marge Schott has behaved in the workplace-- including in conference 
    calls with other owners!  I'm sure that MLB owners would also frown
    upon the above-mentioned activities taking place during their business
    meetings.
    
    I will admit that I would have a problem with Marge Schott being
    suspended based on testimony from individuals engaged in private
    conversation.  I don't think that this fits the description of her
    case.  The matter first came up in a lawsuit by a former office 
    employee, and others including a (black) secretary from the Oakland 
    A's have attested to her conduct in the workplace, on the job.  It's 
    not like MLB was bugging her phones...  
    
    glenn
    

    
    re: .17
    
>       Goose, the Reds have *the lowest* front office minority hiring rate 
>       in the entire Major Leagues.
    
    	So.  That doesn't prove any laws have been broken.  The Reds do
    have a minority manager and some minority players (I hesitate to
    say many because I don't know exactly how many they have).  If Schott
    were indeed as bad as the media has portrayed her, then I would think
    her organization would look more like the Red Sox..
    
    	It is also one thing to say that so-and-so is racist because 
    they don't have any or they only have a few minorities working for
    them, but it is quite another to prove any wrong-doing, legally.
    
    	Since I don't know you personally, don't take this personally,
    but how many minorities do you work directly with?  How many minorities
    are on your sites staff?  And out of that number, exclude white women
    for the moment.
    
    	I've worked in a minority plant for 16 years, with me, a white
    male being the minority and I can tell you it's a two way street. 
    I have played on two basketball teams (organized) where I was the
    only white person on the team.  Now, I can tell you some wonderful
    stories of how I had to 'prove' myself just because I was white.
    Am I bitter, no!  It was a great learning process and I can now say
    that I've seen both sides of the tracks and neither side is blamless.
    
    	But the real issue is once again, censorship.  All those wanting
    the right to see, read, and say/print what they want are all for 
    things like flagburing and piss-art.  But heaven forbid that someone
    calls someone else a name, and folks go ballistic...at least certain
    folks go ballistic because clearly in this country, it is O.K. to
    say certain things no matter how offensive if you're politically
    correct.
    
    	As someone else pointed out, the ACLU will protect the Nazi's and
    their rights to parade and have public speeches, but where are they
    when the issue isn't politically correct?
    
    	All I'm looking for is fairness.  If you're going to call a spade
    (nothing racial intended) a spade, then it should be a spade all the
    time.
    
    bill..g.
    

    
    Sure the ACLU is there for the Nazis but where are they when the issue
    isn't politically correct!?  ;-)  Did I hear that right?  I think JD is
    right about this; the "politically correct" label has become officially
    meaningless...
    
    glenn
    

>    
>       Goose, you believe what you believe and it appears to me that nothing 
>       that gets said here is gonna change that. The same could be said for 
>       me.


And that's really okay as long as what you both believe doesn't HURT
anyone else.

We're all in this together, but we don't ALL have to think the SAME way.
It'd be pretty boring if we did.


JMHO,
'Saw

    It the penalty/fine won't affect Schott because she didn't think she
    did anything wrong.  Until she does, she won't feel embarrassed or
    guilty about it.  I don't think Bob Probert  feels guilty about getting
    thrown out of a hockey game because he thinks it's a part of the game
    and life.  Same goes here.
    
    ACLU is everywhere, whether they get press or not. 	

    ACLU :==  All Criminals Love Us
    
    
    
    Schnortt Schitt Schlepps
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Goose :== "that white boy can play"!
    
    
    schnortt schitt Schlepps - part II
    
    ;^)
    

	As long as intolerance for anything different (a legacy of the 80's),
continues to be nutured the prospect of peaceful coexistence anywhere is 
about as possible as a balanced budget.

				/Don

    
    re: .23
    
    	Never meant to say that the Nazi's were/are PC.  But I do find
    it ironic that the ACLU will protect these folks who I would say
    are racist, anti-semetic, etc, and yet fail to come to the aid of
    someone like Schott.
    
    	If they protect the free speech of these white supremist groups
    that are clearly racist, why not protect the free speech of Schott?
    
    	Also, again, it is SPEECH.  Nothing that I have seen or read has
    shown that Schott carried those words further i.e. in her business.
    The folks that worked for her that heard her say those things have
    not said that she carried those feelings out into her business.  She
    is being punished for what she said and not for what she did.  To me
    there is a big difference.
    
    re: Schott/Management
    
    	To be truthful, I don't know exactly how Schott was caught and who
    did what or heard what.  I only heard that it was during private 
    conversations that the comments were made.
    
    	Secondly, I don't mind that Schott was dealt with...she should have
    been.  But I also find it hypocritical that we don't deal with it on
    both sides of the fences.  I am simply asking why is it O.K. for some
    to say the same types of things and get away with it while others 
    can not?
    
    	Over the last 10-15 years, we've seen plenty of examples to bare
    this out, but in all cases, only the 'white' folks have been taken
    to task.  Jimmy the Geek was spanked, Schott was spanked, Campanis
    was spanked, but Thomas was 'sorry', Jesse 'really didn't mean it',
    Louis Farrakaan (sp) is simply taken out of context...etc, etc.
    
    	I guess all the racists and intolerant folks all have white skin
    or it seems that only those folks ever get dealt with.  Anyone can
    be a racist.  My only beef is lets call it when we see it.  The problem
    is not just with one race, but it exists across the board.
    
    
    bill..g.

    Bill, I don't think it's correct to say that Jackson, Farrakhan, etc.
    have escaped from their pasts unscathed.  They have their defenders,
    but they've also been held accountable, if not by their closest
    followers then by the general public (especially Farrakhan, who to my
    mind has been completely discredited and cannot be used as an example
    of a person who has gotten away with anything, and will not soon be
    running a baseball club.  Did anyone else catch Farrakhan in that 
    well-done Mike Tyson documentary railing on the pulpit about the 
    duplicity of the female character?  That was truly scary.).  I see 
    Jackson's remark brought up all the time, including in the baseball 
    debate, in the media.  His credibility was damaged by it, no question 
    about it.  The difference is that in spite of whatever perceived 
    connections he has to his almost-mythical Rainbow Coalition, he's 
    pretty much his own man.  Has he ever won an election as a politician?  
    Who does he tangibly represent that can fire or discipline him?
    
    Same thing goes with the ACLU.  The ACLU involves itself in public
    policy debates, in legal cases.  There are not going to get involved in 
    a private matter, where a person like Schott who has been disciplined by 
    by her organization has accepted the decision.
    
    glenn
    

    Farrakhan was on there too?  I didn't see the special but the minister
    I saw while flipping through talking about how Tyson got wronged from the 
    pulpit was not Farrakhan.   It was someone else.  I thought he was off
    his rocker.
    
    

                          
    > Farrakhan was on there too?  I didn't see the special but the minister
    > I saw while flipping through talking about how Tyson got wronged from the 
    > pulpit was not Farrakhan.   It was someone else.  I thought he was off
    > his rocker.
    
    Yep, both Farrakhan and the Rev. T.J. Jemison were on.  Jemison was 
    probably the guy you saw and is the one who was later investigated 
    for trying to buy off Washington's father.  Don't know if he's been 
    indicted or not; they didn't really get into this in the program...
    
    glenn
    

Weren't the cases of the Nazis argued that it violated the
constitutional right to free assembly or something like that?

Anyway, its been pretty well beat around in here that Schott's
matter was different, cuz baseball is different than a town.  

So, does PC mean Perfect Christian, or what?

JD

    I miss the toilet the most.... Jesse..... Age 5....
    
    REk

    I miss Po T also.

    I miss T like I miss hemmie-roids....
    
    REK

    
    all those who miss RCASO
    
    
    
    
    remain sitting and BLAM Sy Yung!
    
    ;^)
    

    REK, you're jus' mad cuz T used big words.
    
    Mark.

    Could someone post the schedule of the Giants for the week of 5/3.
    
    I'll be in San Francisco supporting an event that week and if possible
    would like to catch a game.
    
    Thanks
    Shawn

	Will Jacques Clarke make Les Expos roster?  Can he hit his weight?  
Can anybody?

				/Don

    Po' Jock blames that ogre, les Boston media for focusing attention
    on his bankruptcy when other bastions like NY Post, Wang, etc, were
    going down the tubes. Contributed to his demise, no?
    Ha! Good thing he don't play for les Canadiens. He'd be a candidate
    for Bellevue.
    
    MikeL
    

What's wrong with Bellevue? I work in Bellevue. Some of the richest people in
Washington live in Bellevue...

:-)

Metz

    Les Expos waived the c1B they got in the off-season.  Looks like Mssr.
    Clark may make it...

    Hey TCM, how's those overpaid Bums the Mucking Fets doing so far this
    year????
    
    
    JaKe
    

Watsa matter JaKe 'ya can't read? Look it up in what passes for a news
paper in Pengoon town. :-)

The Crazy Met

    Hey tcm (the crazy marlin?), Jake was just tryin to help you stop
    laughing and disturbing the others around you.
    
    brews 

    
>>Watsa matter JaKe 'ya can't read? Look it up in what passes for a news
>>paper in Pengoon town. :-)
    
    A little Teste, aren't we TCM???
    
    Why should a GOOD newspaper here print what the Mucking Fets are doing
    falling all over their oversized wallets, whilst laughing all the way
    to the bank.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    >> <<< Note 6.51 by SOLANA::MAY_BR "Inside Intel, but no Intel inside" >>>

    >>Hey tcm (the crazy marlin?), Jake was just tryin to help you stop
    >>laughing and disturbing the others around you.
    
    >>brews 

    
    brews, I couldn'ta said it better meself.  thanks
    
    JaKe
    
    

    
    
    BTW Jake the Mucking Fets are    9 - 15 and in last place in the NL
    East. Thats right Last place. 2 games behind the EXPANSION Marlins.
    
    
    Chappy

Iknew about the last place thing, I din't know what the exact record
was. Thanks Chappy, can always count on you for that kind of info :-)

The Crazy Met

    
    >>BTW Jake the Mucking Fets are    9 - 15 and in last place in the NL
    >>East. Thats right Last place. 2 games behind the EXPANSION Marlins.
    
    Ya know, it would BREAK MY HEART if the Mucking Fets finished up this
    year BEHIND the EXPANSION Marlins
    
    
    NOT!!
    
    I doubt it'd happen, but it would give some of us in this notesfile a
    lot of stuff to make TCM's life miserable thruout nexted winter, ya
    know??
    
    JaKe
    

                                                     
    Yes, last night's ESPN game may have been a start towards solving the
    seemingly unsolvable conundrum: if you put the Mets and the Dodgers on
    the same field at the same time, would someone win?  Or its corollary; 
    if Darryl Strawberry appeared, would either team want him?
    
    glenn
    

JaKe I have confidence that you'll find some other excuse if the Marlins
finish last as expected :-)


The Crazy Met

    
>>JaKe I have confidence that you'll find some other excuse if the Marlins
>>finish last as expected :-)
    
    Gotta do something to make ya feel wanted in here.
    
    JaKe
    

    It's too easy to find another excuse.

re: .57

a truly pathetic game. at least there was the Suns-Lakers on at
the same time.

The Crazy Met

    
    
          Yo TCM, if Mac persists about 1940. Just say 1918, that oughtta
    shud him ups.
    
    
    
    Chappy

>          Yo TCM, if Mac persists about 1940. Just say 1918, that oughtta
>    shud him ups.
    
Won't work Chappy.  We've grown pretty thick skinned in the last 75 years.....

    
    Yabbut just to look at MtM, all ya can really say is that he's pretty
    THICK!
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain, meanwhile
    farley svelte meself!
    Kev
    

From: clarinews@clarinet.com (United Press International)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.baseball
Subject: Major League Leaders
Keywords: baseball, men's professional
Message-ID: <bb-leadersU3y6320ae@clarinet.com>
References: <bb-leadersU3AR1150ae@clarinet.com>
Date: Thu, 6 May 93 0:25:23 PDT
ACategory: sports
Slugword: bb-leaders
Priority: regular
Format: scorecard
ANPA: Wc: 872/0; Id: z0961; Sel: xxsbp; Adate: 5-6-320aed; Ver: 5/0
Approved: clarinews@clarinet.com
Codes: &sbplxx., tnrb...., txia...., tbza....
Lines: 113
 
(Through games of Wednesday, May 5)
                             Batting
(Based on 3.1 plate appearances multiplied by number of games played)
                         American League
                              ab   r   h  pct.
Olerud, Tor.                   94  16  39  .415
Gibson, Det.                   71  14  28  .394
Vaughn, Bos.                   87  16  34  .391
Johnson, Chi                  100  13  37  .370
Cooper, Bos.                   98  11  35  .357
Lofton, Cle.                   94  19  33  .351
Quintana, Bos.                 77  10  27  .351
Fryman, Det.                  105  22  36  .343
Phillips, Det.                103  19  35  .340
Hamilton, Mil.                 80  11  27  .338
                         National League
                              ab   r   h  pct.
Bonds, S.F.                    88  30  38  .432
Galarraga, Col.               104  15  41  .394
Slaught, Pit.                  70   4  25  .357
Vizcaino, ChiN                 93  10  33  .355
Merced, Pit.                   75  12  26  .347
Lansing, Mon.                  87  15  30  .345
Alou, Mon.                    102  11  35  .343
Magadan, Fla.                  88   9  30  .340
Butler, LA.                    97  15  33  .340
Walker, Mon.                   71  14  24  .338

                            Home Runs
        American League -- Belle, Cle 10; Palmer, Tex, 8; Carter, Tor,
Deer, Det, Gonzalez, Tex, Griffey, Sea 7; Canseco, Tex, Martinez, Sea
and Snow, Cal 6; six tied at 5.
        National League -- Williams, SF 9; Bonds, SF 8; Daulton, Phi,
Hayes, Col, Sheffield, SD, and Sosa, Chi 6; nine tied at 5.

                         Runs Batted In
        American League -- Belle, Cle and Canseco, Tex 28; Carter,
Tor 27; Fryman, Det 23; Thomas, Chi 22; Rodriguez, Tex, 21; Greenwell,
Bos and Tettleton, Det 20; five tied with 19.
        National League -- Bonds, SF 29; Galarraga, Col 27; Grace,
Chi 23; Hayes, Col and Williams, SF 22; Hollins, Phi 21; Bagwell, Hou
and Sabo, Cin 19; Murray, NY and Van Slyke, Pit 18.

                             Doubles
        American League -- Vaughn, Bos 11; Anderson, Bal and Canseco,
Tex 9; eight tied with 8.

        National League -- Bonds, SF 11; Galarraga, Col 10; Anthony,
Bagwell and Biggio, Hou, Grace, Chi, Gwynn SD, Hollins, Phi, Lansing,
Mon and Williams, SF 8.

                             Triples
        American League -- Pagliarulo, Min 4; Burks, Chi, Greenwell,
Bos, Lofton, Cle, McRae, KC, Polonia, Cal, and Ripken, Bal 3.
        National League -- Martin, Pit 4; Clayton, SF and Vanderwal,
Mon 3; 13 tied at 2.

                          Stolen Bases
        American League -- Lofton, Cle 14; Curtis, Cal 13; R.Henderson,
Oak 12; Johnson, Chi and Felder, Sea 8; McRae, KC and Hulse, Tex 7;
Alomar and Molitor, Tor, Palmeiro, Tex 6.
        National League -- Cole, Col 14; Carr, Fla 13; Lewis, SF, Nixon,
Atl and E.Young, Col 12; Coleman, NY, and Davis LA 10; Butler, LA,
Dykstra, Phi and Gwynn, SD 8.

                           Runs Scored
        American League -- Fryman, Det and Gonzalez, Tex 22; Alomar,
Tor and Belle, Cle, 21; Fielder, Det and Palmer, Tex 20; five tied
with 19.
        National League -- Bonds, SF 30; Williams, SF 25; Dykstra,
Phi 23; Biggio, Hou, and E. Young, Col 20; King, Pit and Kruk, Phi
19; four tied at 18.

                              Hits
        American League -- Olerud, Tor 39; Johnson, Chi 37; Fryman,
Det 36; Cooper, Bos, McRae, KC, Phillips, Det 35; Vaughn, Bos 34; Lofton,
Cle 33.
        National League -- Galarraga, Col 41; Bonds, SF 38; Blauser,
Atl, Gwynn, SD and Williams, SF 36; Alou, Mon 35; Butler, LA, Grace,
Chi and Vizcaino, Pit 33; Bell, Pit 32.


                            Pitching
                              Wins
        American League -- McDowell, Chi 5-1; Hanson, Sea 4-0; Clemens,
Bos, Deshaies, Min, Hentgen, Tor, Mussina, Bal and Wells, Det 4-1;
Viola, Bos 4-2; 16 tied at 3.

        National League -- Burkett, SF 5-0; Glavine, Atl, and Hill,
Mon 4-0; Jones, Mon and Schilling, Phi 4-1; Benes, SD, and Swindell,
Hou 4-2; 13 tied with 3.

                       Earned Run Average
        American League -- Key, NY 1.16; Hanson, Sea 1.29; Brown, Tex
1.33; Clemens, Bos 1. 55; Viola, Bos 1.76; Wells, Det 1.86; Fernandez,
Chi 2.01; Hentgen, Tor 2.08; Rogers, Tex 2.21; Langston, Cal 2.30.
        National League -- Olivares, StL and Drabek, Hou 2.25; Smith,
Atl 2.35; Hill, Mon 2.38; Schilling, Phi 2.44; Greene, Phi 2.45; Glavine,
Atl 2.48; Gooden, NY 2.54; Mulholland, Phi 2.60; Smoltz, Atl 2.68.

                           Strikeouts
        American League -- Johnson, Sea 47; Appier, KC 43; Langston,
Cal 41; Clemens, Bos 40; Cone, KC and Finley, Cal 35; Fernandez, Chi
34; Guzman, Tor 33; Hanson, Sea 32; Brown, Tex 31.
        National League -- Maddux and Smoltz, Atl 39; Armstrong, Fla
and Rijo, Cin 35; Drabek, Hou 34; Benes, SD and Schilling, Phi 32;
Burkett, SF 29; Bowen, Fla and Greene, Phi 28.

                              Saves
        American League -- Aguilera, Min, and Ward, Tor 8; Montgomery,
KC and Russell, Bos 7; Farr, NY and Henneman, Det 6; five tied with
5.
        National League -- Williams, Phi 11; L. Smith, SL and Stanton,
Atl 10; Harvey, Fla. and Myers, Chi 8; Beck, SF 7; Belinda, Pit 6;
Ge.Harris, SD, Rojas, Mon and Jones, Hou 5.

                         Complete Games
        American League --Finley and Langston, Cal and Brown, Tex 3;
Abbott, NY, Fernandez, Chi, Johnson, Sea, Mussina, Bal and Wegman,
Mil 2; 10 tied at one.
        National League -- Drabek, Hou 3; Belcher, Cin, Gooden, NY,
Hill, Mon, Smoltz, Atl, Mulholland and Schilling, Phi 2.

                            Shutouts
        American League -- Mussina, Bal 2; Bosio, Sea, Brown, Tex,
Dopson, Bos, Fernandez, Chi, Finley, Cal, Guzman, Tor, Johnson, Sea,
Key, NY and Viola, Bos 1.
        National League -- Schilling, Phi 2; Belcher, Cin, Drabek,
Hou, Gooden, NY and Guzman, Chi 1.

    Conundrum, huh Glenn?
    Who said this file wasn't educational. And a dang engineer comin'
    up with a_impressive vocabulary to boot.
    
    And all along I thought a conundrum was Desi Arnaz' bongo. Sheesh!
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    
    

    
    Couple guys on the radio were talking about Mo Vaugn's new friend, the
    kid with cancer.  Apparently he said that he was a Mets fan, but now
    he's a Red Sox fan.  This caused one of the guys to comment  "He's
    probably the only MEts fan to jump off the bandwagon _not_ because
    they're losing."
    
    brews

    
    
          Are those the same New York Mets we all know and LOVE that just
    fell 3 games behind the Expansion Florida MARLINS.
    
                 Pathetic!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
         BTW I'm taking opinions on what TCC's P_name is gonna be 
    in Late August. Send me mail. :-)
    
    Chappy

Yeah this Mets team reminds me of Tom Seaver pitching on the 1982 team.
Gooden may have finally regained his touch (3-4 real good games in a row)
but the rest of the team is as Chappy said pathetic. Yeah its only May, but
somehow that is not a real comforting thought at this point in time.

The Crazy Met

Hey Chappy I thought you already had a p_name picked out :-) 

    
    
        I do but somebody already told me I was being too nice.
    
                               :-)
    
    
    Chappy

re: .70

watta guy :-)

The Crazy Met

The worst part is that there is no reason for this team to be in last; 4th
place maybe, last is a reach. It feels like everything has completely fallen
apart at the same time and the team is in free fall with the ground nowhere
in sight.

The Crazy Met

    New Yuck Mucking Fets:==World CLass UNDERachievers and WIMPS.
    
    
    Schnorttt Schittt Schleppps
    
    JaKe
    

    
> The worst part is that there is no reason for this team to be in last; 4th
> place maybe, last is a reach. It feels like everything has completely fallen
> apart at the same time and the team is in free fall with the ground nowhere
> in sight.
    
    I don't know about that.  The Mets are old.  Old teams tend to decline,
    and even fall apart.  This should not come as any great mystery to the
    men in charge of baseball teams, but it so often seems to. 
    
    The Mets, like the Red Sox, have idiots in charge of the operation of
    one of the most valuable franchises in professional sports.  The Mets
    are more worried about media relations than they are about baseball
    issues, like picking a core of players that they can win with over 2-5
    years and sticking with them.  The writing was on the wall, but even 
    through this past winter the Mets protected veteran stiffs instead of 
    some promising young kids in the expansion draft.  Their free agent 
    and trade priorities in recent years has been, to say the least, 
    bizarre, including decisions to part ways with relatively young and 
    *reliable* players like Cone, Tapani, Aguilera (and then almost
    immediately the acquired Viola), Magadan, et al, for over-the-hill or 
    always-injured Saberhagen, Murray, Coleman, T. Fernandez, Tanana (!).
    
    The destruction of the post-1969 and post-1986 young and talented and
    pitching-rich organizations that the Mets' excellent scouts were 
    responsible for really should be a case study in how not to run a 
    franchise.  Yes, each of those two teams reached the pinnacle in a 
    single year, but it should have been much more, and consequently the 
    Mets have seen more down years (and I mean really down years) in 
    their history than up.
    
    glenn
    

1969 was magical, but it  was a year when everything came together at the
same time; the makings of a team that could win 3-4 divisions in a row was not 
quite there. 1986 is a different story; a young team in which few players had
career years - they should have been poised to win 3-4 divisions/pennants
in a row but only managed another division in 1988. The won 300 games over
3 years and that has happened a handful of times in MLB history. ouch.

The Crazy Met

    
>>in a row but only managed another division in 1988. The won 300 games over
>>3 years and that has happened a handful of times in MLB history. ouch.
    
    Hell, did the Bucs win 300 games from 1982 thru 1988????
    
    
    Inquiring minds and all that horse dung
    
    JaKe
    

Yeah JaKe Bucs won 300 over those 7 years. Heck the Mets won 300 games in 
their first 7 seasons.

The Crazy Met

    
> 1969 was magical, but it  was a year when everything came together at the
> same time; the makings of a team that could win 3-4 divisions in a row was not 
> quite there.
    
    If you're talking about the core stars of that team I'd agree, but I'm
    talking about the franchise as a whole.  The Mets went out and made
    ridiculously bad trades of players like Nolan Ryan and Amos Otis.  By
    the mid-70s they were in shambles, culminated by a very stupid trade of
    all-time franchise hero Tom Seaver.  So maybe they couldn't have become
    a "dynasty", but Mets fans had every right to expect much, much more.
    
    glenn
    

Gotta love those Mets:



From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.baseball
Subject: Mets deny report Torborg to be fired
Keywords: baseball, men's professional
Message-ID: <bb-torborgU3yJ1020ae@clarinet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 May 93 7:27:40 PDT
ACategory: sports
Slugword: bb-torborg
Priority: daily
Format: daily
ANPA: Wc: 111/110; Id: z2778; Sel: xxsbp; Adate: 5-19-1020aed
Approved: clarinews@clarinet.com
Codes: ysbpdxx., tnrb...., txia....
Lines: 9
 
	NEW YORK (UPI) -- The New York Mets are denying a television report
that manager Jeff Torborg will be fired and replaced by Dallas Green.
	CBS News reported on its ``CBS This Morning'' show Wednesday that a
source inside the Mets' organization said that Torborg would be replaced
by Green as manager of the struggling Mets, who fell to 12-25 with their
fifth straight loss Tuesday night.
	The Mets have lost 18 of their last 22 games and have the second
worst record in the majors, leading only the expansion Colorado Rockies.
	The Mets say they have no announcements planned at this time.


From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.baseball,clari.local.nyc
Subject: Mets fire Torborg; name Dallas Green replacement
Keywords: baseball, men's professional
Message-ID: <metsU3yK825ae@clarinet.com>
References: <bbn-mets-torborgU3yJ11pe@clarinet.com>
X-Supersedes: <bbn-mets-torborgU3yJ1135pe@clarinet.com>
Date: Thu, 20 May 93 5:27:35 PDT
Location: new york city, new jersey, new york
ACategory: national
Slugword: mets
Priority: regular
Format: regular
ANPA: Wc: 722/775; Id: z2201; Sel: nxsbp; Adate: 5-20-825aed; Ver: 0/3
Approved: clarinews@clarinet.com
Codes: ysbprnx., ysbprnj., ysbprny., xxxxxxxx
Lines: 78
 
	NEW YORK (UPI) -- The New York Mets, baseball's most disappointing
team so far this season, fired Manager Jeff Torborg Wednesday night and
named Dallas Green his replacement.
	Torborg's firing comes with the Mets mired in last place in the weak
National League East, 14 games behind front-running Philadelphia.
Ironically, the Mets announced Torborg's dismissal 30 minutes after
rallying from three runs down in the ninth inning to defeat Pittsburgh,
6-4, on Bobby Bonilla's two-run homer in the 10th.
	The victory was the Mets' first this season after trailing after
eight innings and ended a five-game losing streak.
	The Mets also announced the firing of first base coach Barry Foote
and bullpen coach Dave LaRouche. Foote will be replaced by Darrell
Johnson, who managed the Boston Red Sox and the Seattle Mariners.
	Green, 59, will manage the club for the rest of the season and signed
a two-year contract through the 1995 season.
	Mets General Manager Al Harazin said he decided to fire Torborg after
the Mets were swept in a three-game series at Montreal last weekend.
	``It became almost certain in my mind that we couldn't wait any
longer to make a change,'' Harazin said.
	Harazin said he resisted a managerial change and was willing to give
Torborg and his staff through the end of the season. After the Mets'
slow start, Harazin said he still wanted to wait until the All-Star
break before making a move.
	``We couldn't go through again in 1993 what we did in '92,'' Harazin
said. ``We simply had to turn the club around and become the kind of
club we had been in the '80s.
	``It's obviously a joint failure,'' Harazin said. ``We have all let
Jeff down -- players, staff and all of us in management.''
	Green, considered a strong disciplinarian, has been working as a
scout in the Mets organization. Green, who has previously managed the
New York Yankees, Chicago Cubs and Philadelphia Phillies, becomes the
15th manager in Mets' franchise history.
	Harazin said Green would take over the club on Friday when the Mets
open a three-game series with the Atlanta Braves.
	Harazin said Torborg met with his players following the game and that
he and Torborg had an emotional talk.
	``I felt like I let Jeff down and he felt like he let me down,''
Harazin said. ``The fact of the matter is it just didn't work.
	``I can't tell you how I personally feel about this man and manager.
He's probably one of the most decent people I have ever worked with or
around. I couldn't feel worse about putting him through this.''
	The Mets, who have lost 18 of their last 23 games, entered the season
with high hopes of turning around a fifth-place finish in 1992 and have
seen their 1993 season go from bad to worse in just 38 games.
	Torborg, who Tuesday morning awoke to radio reports of his imminent
firing, was taunted by fans during a recent home losing skid with chants
of ``Jeff must go! He had been preparing himself for the firing for some
time and had wanted to leave the team on a high note.
	``I was delighted to win tonight, I was sorry for Al,'' Torborg said.
``I have a feeling of frustration and of leaving something undone. I
didn't want to leave this job and I leave it undone.''
	Since Torborg's hiring, the Mets' most notable acquisitions have been
free-agent star Bonilla and pitcher Brett Saberhagen from Kansas City.
But neither has lived up to expectations which has helped 
	Torborg took over the team on Oct. 11, 1991, after managing the
Chicago White Sox from 1989-1991. He was named the American League
Manager of the Year after his second season in Chicago, leading a young
White Sox squad to an impressive second-place showing in the AL-West.
	The Mets signed Torborg, 51, to a four-year $1.9 million deal and
touted him as the ideal man for the job. The Mets could manage no better
than a fifth-place finish in the division in Torborg's first season,
going 72-90.
	New York is obliged to pay Torborg more than $1 million through 1995.
	Pittsburgh Manager Jim Leyland, who coached with Torborg in Chicago
said: ``Nobody want to see anyone lose their job. There is a fraternity
of managers. I worked with Jeff in Chicago. I respect him and what he
has gone through the last three days is unfair. He's a class act all the
way.''
--
This, and all articles in this news hierarchy are Copyright 1993 by the wire 
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to reward@clarinet.com.  (Note that while we do like to know about people
who do the odd reposting to USENET without permission, rewards are not
always provided for reports on that, since it's usually obvious.)

    So how do Mets fans feel about hiring a former Yankee?

I don't know about Red Sox fans, but Mets fans generally, don't have animosties
towards
any particular Yankee, just to the team as a whole. No big deal
that Green managed the Yankees once. Come to think of it just about
everyone managed the Yankees once :-)

The Crazy Met

    You mean like Yogi Berra?
    

    I like the part of the artice that said " The MEts, baseball'ss most
    disappointing team" the best.  Can we make it a rule i here that the team 
    is always addressed in that manner?
    
    TCM (the crazy marlin)

	Any truth to the report I heard on KOA this morning that the Reds
	manager (Perez?) was canned and that Davey Johnson replaced him?

	Kevin

Perez is out and Davey Johnson is in as the manager of the Reds.

The Crazy Met

Well, I've been meaning to post this for a few days, and I just haven't
gotten around to writing it up, so I'd better do it now.


Last Sunday, my brother and I planned a surprise trip for my dad to
Cooperstown, to visit the Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum.

We didn't tell him until he was in the car and we were on our way where we
were going.


The ride out was beautiful.  We got on I90 in Holyoke, and headed west. I'd
forgotten how pretty that part of Mass. is.   Then into New York and past
Albany.

We picked up I88 and drove through farm country, and some of the most
pretty hills I've seen outside of Vermont or New Hampshire.

Before long (or so it seemed -- the 3.5 hour drive went by quick) we were
headed up 28 North towards Cooperstown.  I was surprised by how "small town"
Cooperstown turned out to be.

We drove down the Main Street, and all of a sudden, on our right, there
was the Hall of Fame.

We went in.  The price is now $8, which I think is pretty reasonable actually.
Unfortunately, the hallway where they keep the plaques is now under renovation,
so they had the plaques in a tiny little temporary room off in the East
Wing.


I was in awe, total and complete awe from the moment I walked in the building.
The first room we went to was the Cooperstown room, with exhibits centered
on Doubleday, and the first baseball games, and the opening of the Hall of
Fame.

Then we went to a room dedicated to baseball records, and they had this
neat display about no-hitters -- a wall full of baseballs that were used to
pitch the no-hitters, signed by the pitchers.  Also there were displays on
how gloves, shoes, baseballs, and bats are made, along with a historical
display on the evolution of the baseball glove, and catchers and umpires 
equipment.

It was interesting to note that while he's not in the Hall of Fame (something
I disagree with btw) Joe Jackson is mentioned on the wall of records, for
triples I believe.

Upstairs, is a room devoted to memorabilia from highlights of the past three
seasons.  The only break in the rather reverent attitude that we had was
when we saw Matt Young's hat, from his no-hitter that he lost in 1992.
We chuckled over what a stiff he was.

We saw Roger Clemens hat, glove, shoes and ball from the 20K game, and
looked at all the records.   

   
Next to the highlight room is a locker room display featuring uniforms
from all the teams, along with a history of the team, championships won,
retired numbers etc.

That leads to the theater where you can see a 12-minute, multimedia presentation
about baseball, that was pretty fun to watch.

After that we went to the West Wing to see the historical displays.  My dad
had been enjoying himself immensely up to that time, but when we went into
the West Wing, he really lit up.

I guess the only way to put it is that for me, guys like Ruth and Gehrig
ARE baseball history.  For my dad, they are the contemporaries of his boyhood,
much like Yaz and Jim Lonborg are of mine.

It was so interesting to see all the historical memorabilia through the years,
things the players wore, their bats and personal items etc.

Following that we saw a neat display on uniforms -- the evolution part was
neat, but they also have a couple of unusual uniforms too.  One is a 
Cincy Reds uni done up in green instead of red.  It seems that every St Patricks
day, for their exhibition game, they wear a green uniform.  It sure was
strange to see that!

And they had an exhibit on old ball parks -- Forbes Field, Shibe Park, the
Polo Grounds, Ebbetts Field, Fenway.....


All told it was a helluva day.  I'd go back at a moment's notice, to see
it all over again -- there's so much to take in......


Between the beautiful area that Cooperstown is in, and the neat stuff at
the HoF, I'd recommend it to anyone.   It can be done in a day, but if you
wanna stay overnight, there's a plethora of Bed'nBreakfasts out there....


'Saw

Well, it's the entrance up there right by the Holyoke Mall.  Maybe it's
actually into Northampton at that point, but I'm a little hazy on the
town lines up there....   It's the place where you get on from I91 North....


'Saw

    heck, even I knew 'saw was getting on in West Springfield, and I'm a
    zonie.
    
    brews

    Will you guys take this stuff to the junk note?
    
    brews

    Brews, I don't want anyone who wants to go to Cooperstown to get lost.
    
    As for you, you can get lost.

    but I know when I'm in WSpfld, when I'm in Holyoke, and when I'm in
    N'hamton.  8^)
    
    
    
    

    
    	Take it to the directions note!!!!!!!!!! :*)
    
    Claybone

Well, I know where the Holyoke Mall is (exit 15) and I know where the
exit is to get to Pearl Street or the Iron Horse in Northhampton (exit 18)
and anyway, I know that you get off on exit 14 to get on the Pike.

I made it to Cooperstown, despite not knowing which town I was in when
I got on the Pike.....

And I did NOT mention any mildewed naval ports in Arizona, so I cain't
be too much like MrT  8^)


'Saw


And while I'm in the National League note, I'll just state for the record
that I really like the National League's traditional stylings of making
the pitcher take his at-bats.

    Life is a highway, I wanna drive it all night long...
    

    
    Hey Mac, weren't you the guy who told the guy from Maine who wanted to
    know how to get to Fenway Park to take 495 to the Mass Pike?  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    
           Anybody catch the Brave Cincy game last night? I'll try to
    reconstruct the wild scene. 
    
          After hitting a Dinger in his last AB Sabo was back up at the
    plate, Maddux threw at his head,he got out of the way and when Atlanta
    came up Deion was hit by Belcher. In the next inning Belcher came up to
    bat, Marvin Freeman was now pitching he didn't throw at Belcher at all.
    Well Terry Pendleton (the Brave on field leader)calls timeout goes over
    to the dugout throws his glove on the dugout stairs and heads to the
    clubhouse. Bobby Cox with a pretty surprised look on his face sends
    Bill Pecota out to 3rd to complete the inning.
    
       Bobby Cox didn't want to talk about the incident after the game.:-)
    
    Chappy 

>And I did NOT mention any mildewed naval ports in Arizona, so I cain't
>be too much like MrT  8^)
    
    don't laugh.  we have 100s of miles of large lakes (not ponds in a New
    England sense) and lead the nation in boats per capita.

I had a friend in Oklahoma and he told me that Oklahoma also has lots
of large lakes. I guess lots of states out there have water like that.


But, don't think that New Englanders don't have a sense of large lakes.
Lake Memphrmagog is one HUGE lake.....  deep too....


'Saw

I find it hard to believe that Phonecians have more boats than the greater
Seattle area. I think 3 out of every 4 families here has a boat. The opening
day of boating is 2nd only to seafare (the unlimited Hydro races on Lake
Washington) as one of the biggest party days of the season. 

Almost everybody I know has a boat except for me and I'll probably buy one
someday if the finances ever clear up...

Water,water everywhere and boats on the water....


Metz

 

Isn't a boat like a hole in the water you put money into?  8^)


I like sailboats the best.


'Saw

>Isn't a boat like a hole in the water you put money into?  8^)
    
    It's a lot like rugby I heard...
    

    
> I had a friend in Oklahoma and he told me that Oklahoma also has lots
> of large lakes. I guess lots of states out there have water like that.
    
    Mostly man-made, like Lake Thunderbird outside of OK City where we used
    to go when I was a kid.  There are quite a few big rivers out there,
    like the Red, Arkansas, Canadian, Cimarron but not many big natural
    lakes, I don't think.
    
    glenn
    

    
    'tis true Metz.  It gets so hot here in the summer, weveryone needs to
    get away to the lakes.
    
    brews

    Davey (not Goliath) Johnson returns to Shea Stadium tomorrow night...
    

    
    >>  <<< Note 6.96 by ROYALT::ASHE "Burning both ends of the knife..." >>>

    >>Life is a highway, I wanna drive it all night long...
    
    Gawd, I hate that freakin' song.  Saw the video once and the guy
    singing in it looks like a grown up Deliverance dude, wif his, what, 3
    teef???
    
    Song sucks IMNSHO
    
    JaKe
    

>    singing in it looks like a grown up Deliverance dude, wif his, what, 3
>    teef???
    
    Ross Perot is a sanger?!

    I'm going to start moving notes again...

    It's Tom Cochrane.  I think he sang the Canadian National Anthem one
    at the All-star game lasted year... I think he's an Expos fan...

Mac is so anal when it comes to WHERE the notes are.

I heard that Davey Johnson is kind of anal too, as are most national league
managers......

So what about this Cincinatti Reds thang.  Sounds like a big bru-ha around 
canning Tony Perez.  The fans are all up in arms.  The most intruging talk is
that Perez was hired to quell the uproar across the country about the Reds/
Marge Schott and their minority hiring practices, and that the plan all along 
was to can him asap.  If this is the case, and Schott is behind it, it is one 
of the most despicable things I have ever heard of.

The other thing I don't understand is that the fans are lashing out at the team,
and {mumble-mumble}, their 31 year old GM.  These are the same fans who think 
Schott is a kindly old lady, who was simply misunderstood.

Most of all, you gotta feel bad for Perez.  44 games is a blink of an eye in 
relation to teh whole season.  If he had the stuff to manage or not, he 
certainly didn't have the opportunity to esablish himself.

=Bob=

    
> The most intruging talk is
> that Perez was hired to quell the uproar across the country about the Reds/
> Marge Schott and their minority hiring practices, and that the plan all along 
> was to can him asap.  If this is the case, and Schott is behind it, it is one 
> of the most despicable things I have ever heard of.
    
    As I mentioned in BASEBALL, Perez was hired a full month before the
    stuff hit the fan for Marge at the winter meetings, so unless the Reds
    anticipated it I doubt this was the plan.  And even if the secret plan 
    was to hire Perez for this reason, does anyone believe that canning him
    after a month and a half would make things better, instead of worse? 
    There's still a hot, glaring spotlight shining upon Marge.  People
    haven't forgotten.  Firing Perez *for any reason* is a terrible PR move
    for Marge, so unless she's much dumber than I give her credit for, the
    Reds legitimately fired Perez because coming in with absolutely *no*
    managerial experience, they now believe he's in over his head.  Who's to
    blame for this decision or the original one is another matter entirely.
    Obviously when you fire your manager after such a short period you've
    bungled badly...
    
    glenn
       

So why *did* they hire Perez?  A no experience guy to manage a team that could
be contenders.  Just incompetance?

The Reds may very well have known that trouble was ahead on racial grounds, and 
hired Perez.  I personally don't know enough to determine if this far-fetched 
possibility is real, but I'm not willing to dismiss it because of the timing 
factor.

> So why *did* they hire Perez?  A no experience guy to manage a team that could
> be contenders.  Just incompetance?
    
    My personal opinion is that they unwisely hired Perez because he was
    already on the coaching staff and because he's a legend in Cincinnati.  
    Perez is very popular in this smaller city that clings to its heroes, 
    win or lose.  They did the same with Pete Rose, who was a pretty bad
    manager in his own right.  The organization is just not run
    professionally, which is why a professional like Lou Piniella got out...
    
    glenn
    

    It seems Margie was caught passing notes into the dugout to the
    manager.  This is in violation of her suspension.
    
    Passing notes...gimme a break.  Why didn't she just use her ugly mutt
    like a carrier pidgeon?
    
    
    billl

	Dale Murphy announced his retirement yesterday in Houston.

	Kevin

    
    	Pretty sad.  He really struggled this year.  He was hitting
    	about .140.  He only needed 2 more dingers to reach 400 I
    	believe.......
    
    Claybone

From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.baseball,clari.local.pennsylvania,clari.local.georgia,clari.local.colorado
Subject: Murphy retires as a Rocky
Keywords: baseball, men's professional
Message-ID: <bb-murphyU3yR1140pe@clarinet.com>
References: <bb-murphyU3yR210pc@clarinet.com>
X-Supersedes: <bb-murphyU3yR315pc@clarinet.com>
Date: Thu, 27 May 93 20:55:15 PDT
Location: pennsylvania, georgia, colorado
ACategory: sports
Slugword: bb-murphy
Priority: regular
Format: regular
ANPA: Wc: 259/264; Id: z0227; Sel: xxsbp; Adate: 5-27-1140ped; Ver: 0/3; V: crn
Approved: clarinews@clarinet.com
Codes: ysbprxx., &sbprpa., &sbprga., &sbprco.
Note: (fixing slug)
Lines: 25
 
	HOUSTON (UPI) -- Dale Murphy of the Colorado Rockies, who came into
the majors as a catcher and was converted into a Gold Glove outfielder
and won two straight National League Most Valuable Player awards as an
Atlanta Brave, Thursday announced his retirement.
	The 37-year-old Murphy made the announcement before the Rockies
concluded a three-game series against the Houston Astros with an 8-0
loss.
	Murphy finished his 17-year major-league career with 398 career
homers, 1,266 RBI and a lifetime batting average of .265. He ranks 27th
on the all-time home run list, one behind former Detroit Tiger Al
Kaline.
	Murphy joined the Rockies two days prior to the start of the regular
season after being released by the Philadelphia Phillies. In 26 games
for the Rockies, he batted .143 with no homers and seven RBI.
	He was Atlanta's first pick in the June 1974 draft and started his
major league career with the Braves in 1976.
	Murphy played 15 seasons for the Braves and earned consecutive MVP
honors in 1982 and 1983, becoming the youngest player to claim the
awards in back-to-back seasons. He had 36 homers, 109 RBI and batted .
281 in 1982 and followed with 36 homers, 121 RBI and hit .302 in 1983.
	Murphy, who hit a career-high 44 homers in 1987, won five Gold Gloves
for defensive excellence.
	He was traded from Atlanta to Philadelphia in August 1990 with
pitcher Tommy Greene for pitcher Jeff Parrett, outfielder Jim Vatcher
and infielder Victor Rosario.

    Best Christian athlete of his time?
    
    Class guy, too bad injuries slowed him down.  Hope he makes the HOF.

    
    > Class guy, too bad injuries slowed him down.  Hope he makes the HOF.
    
    Naw, doesn't quite make the grade, like Rice, Dwight Evans, Darrell
    Evans, Tony Perez, etc.  Andre Dawson is as low as I'll go for an OF...
    
    glenn
    

>    Best Christian athlete of his time?
    
    I'd give that to Dr. J

    	I beg to differ.  Christian Laettner is the *only* Christian
    athlete that I know of...
    
    				/Don

    
    >I beg to differ.  Christian Laettner is the *only* Christian
    >athlete that I know of...
    
    Kind of reminds me of the sports section in the newspaper during Julius
    Cesaer's time.  Right next to the ad for JC Penny, there was a story
    about the local game "Lions 3 Christians 0", maybe Laettner is the best
    Christian athlete 8^)
    
    Marc
    

    >> Best Christian athlete of his time?

PLEASE, please, please, please, PLEASE don't do this...

    
    This is just a warning.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Christian Welp of the 76ers.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    And I think Jim Rice is very close to HOF - not in same class as Evans.
    
    Perez still has a chance - this firing may help him there

    With all due respect, I was saying it tongue in cheek. I'm sorry if
    I offended anyone.  Since Murphy is an LDS, in some circles, he's
    not considered Christian.  I apologize for the faux pax.
    
    I believe it was either Dave Christian or Sister Christian.

    What about Christian Fletcher?  If Dennis Connor had him on his team,
    we'd never have lost the America's Cup.

we're so proud of you Mikey...

    
    yabbut
    
    never mind :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Article: 21557
Path: pa.dec.com!decwrl!wupost!looking!clarinews
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.baseball
Subject: Pitchers dominate major league baseball draft
Keywords: baseball, men's professional
Message-ID: <bb-draftU3u3335pe@clarinet.com>
References: <bb-draftU3u2535pe@clarinet.com>
X-Supersedes: <bb-draftUMb98-162@clarinet.com> <bb-draftU3u3210pe@clarinet.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 93 12:36:42 PDT
ACategory: sports
Slugword: bb-draft
Priority: regular
Format: regular
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Note: (new information)
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	NEW YORK (UPI) -- A cousin of famed rock 'n roll star Elvis Presley,
the brother of San Diego Padres pitcher Andy Benes and the son of former
major league outfielder Leron Lee were among the 28 players selected
Thursday in the first round of the Major League Baseball amateur draft.
	Pitchers were the No. 1 commodity selected, although the No. 1 pick
overall was a high school shortstop, Alex Rodriguez of Miami. The
Seattle Mariners chose Rodriguez, a 6-foot-3, 190-pounder whom many
major league scouts claim is the finest high school middle infielder
they have ever seen.
	Rodriguez hit .505 with nine homers, 36 runs batted in and 35 stolen
bases in just 93 at-bats last season.
	Of the 28 first round selections, 19 were pitchers. Included in that
group were Elvis' cousin, Kirk Presley of Tupelo, Miss., High School and
Andy Benes' brother, Alan, who pitches for Creighton University. Presley
was grabbed by the New York Mets and Benes by the St. Louis Cardinals.
	Presley, a right-hander, posted a 13-0 record and a 0.60 ERA for
Tupelo HS this season, but it was his walks to strikeouts ratio that
grabbed the attention of the scouts. He walked only 14 while striking
out 145 in 81 innings.
	Benes, a husky 6-4, 205-pounder, was 7-4 with a 2.47 ERA for
Creighton and struck out 114 in 98 innings.
	Other prominent first round picks were first baseman Derrek Lee of El
Camino HS in Sacramento, Calif., the son of Leron; pitcher Darren
Dreifort of Wichita State, outfielder-pitcher Brooks Kieschnick of the
University of Texas and pitcher Jeff Granger of Texas A&M.
	Lee, a lanky 6-foot-5, 195-pound right-handed batter, was taken by
the Padres, a team for which his father played briefly. Lee is a rare
combination of power and speed. He knocked in 42 runs and stole 29 bases
in just 87 at-bats this season for El Camino HS.
	Dreifort is regarded by baseball scouts as the No. 1 pitching
prospect in the nation and went to the Los Angeles Dodgers, whose
reputation for drafting and developing pitchers is well known. The
Dodgers actually had wanted Rodriguez but when the Mariners surprised by
taking the shortstop, the Dodgers could not let the opportunity to draft
Dreifort pass them by.
	Dreifort struck out 84 and walked only 29 in 79 innings. He was a
member of the U.S. Olympic baseball team, which competed at Barcelona
last year.
	Kieschnick, selected as college baseball's Player of the Year by
Baseball America, was chosen by the Chicago Cubs. He rotated between the
outfield, first base and pitcher and was voted the best power hitter in
college by Baseball America's board of scouts. Kieschnick, a hulking 6-
4, 228 pounds, his 19 homers and knocked in 76 runs for Texas. He also
posted a 15-3 record with a 3.09 ERA as the ace of the Longhorns' staff.
	Kansas City selected Granger, who overcame arm problems to post a 12-
3 record with a 2.91 ERA for the top-ranked Aggies. Another Aggies'
pitcher, Kelly Wunsch, also was selected in the first round by the
Milwaukee Brewers.
	Other pitchers selected in the first round were: left-hander Brian
Anderson, of Wright State (Ohio), by California; right-hander Wayne
Gomes of Old Dominion, by Philadelphia; right-hander Steve Soderstrom of
Fresno State, by San Franciso; right-hander Daron Kirkreit of
California-Riverside, by Cleveland; left-hander Billy Wagner of Ferrum
College (Va.), by Houston; right-hander Matt Drews of Sarasota, Fla.,
HS, by the Yankees and right-hander Chris Carpenter of Trinity HS in
Manchester, N.H., by Toronto.
	Also, left-hander Scott Christman of Oregon State, by the White Sox;
right-hander Jay Powell of Mississippi State, by Baltimore; right-hander
Jeff D'Amico of Northeast HS in St. Petersburg, Fla., by Milwaukee;
right-hander John Ratliff of LeMoyne University, by the Cubs; right-
hander John Wasdin of Florida State, by Oakland; right-hander Mark
Valdes of the University of Florida, by the Marlins and right-hander
Jamey Wright of Westmoore HS in Oklahoma City, by Colorado.
	Other first-round picks were: outfielder Trot Nixon of New Hanover HS
in Wilmington, N.C., by Boston; shortstop Matt Brunson of Cherry Creek
HS in Englewood, Colo., by Detroit; outfielder Chris Schwab of Cretin-
Durham HS in Eagan, Minn., by Montreal; outfielder Torii Hunter of Pine
Bluff HS in Pine Bluff, Ark., by Minnesota; catcher Jason Varitek of
Georgia Tech, by Minnesota and outfielder Charles Peterson of Laurens
High School in Laurens, S.C., by Pittsburgh.
	The draft will last approximately 70 rounds over three days, but only
the first round selections were announced Thursday. Complete selections
will be announced by the clubs over the next three weeks.

Article: 21556
Path: pa.dec.com!decwrl!wupost!looking!clarinews
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (United Press International)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.baseball
Subject: Major League Baseball Draft Selections
Keywords: baseball, men's professional
Message-ID: <bb-draft-listU3u3205pe@clarinet.com>
References: <bb-draftUMb98-162@clarinet.com> <bb-draftU3u2535pe@clarinet.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 93 11:14:03 PDT
ACategory: sports
Slugword: bb-draft-list
Priority: regular
Format: table
ANPA: Wc: 307/0; Id: z4223; Sel: xxsbp; Adate: 6-3-205ped
Approved: clarinews@clarinet.com
Codes: &sbpaxx., tnrb....
Lines: 38
 
			FIRST ROUND
        1, Seattle, Alex Rodriguez, ss, Westminster Christian HS, Miami.
2, Los Angeles, Darren Dreifort, rhp, Wichita State. 3, California,
Brian Anderson, lhp, Wright State (Ohio). 4, Philadelphia, Wayne Gomes,
rhp, Old Dominion. 5, Kansas City, Jeff Granger, lhp, Texas A&M. 6,
San Francisco, Steve Soderstrom, rhp, Fresno State. 7, Boston, Trot
Nixon, of, New Hanover HS, Wilmington, N.C. 8, New York (NL), Kirk
Presley, rhp, Tupelo HS, Tupelo, Miss. 9, Detroit, Matt Brunson, ss,
Cherry Creek HS, Englewood, Colo. 10, Chicago (NL), Brooks Kieschnick,
of, University of Texas.
        11, Cleveland, Daron Kirkreit, rhp, California-Riverside. 12,
Houston, Billy Wagner, lhp, Ferrum College (Va.), 13, New York (AL),
Matt Drews, rhp, Sarasota HS, Sarasota, Fla., 14, San Diego, Derrick
Lee, 1b, El Camino HS, Sacramento, Calif. 15, Toronto (from Texas),
Chris Carpenter, rhp, Trinity HS, Manchester, N.H., 16, St. Louis,
Alan Benes, rhp, Creighton University. 17, Chicago (AL), Scott Christman,
lhp, Oregon State. 18, Montreal, Chris Schwab, of, Cretin-Durham High
School, Eagan, Minn. 19, Baltimore, Jay Powell, rhp, Mississippi State.
20, Minnesota (from Cincinnati), Torii Hunter, of, Pine Bluff HS, Pine
Bluff, Ark.
        21, Minnesota, Jason Varitek, c, Georgia Tech. 22, Pittsburgh,
Charles Peterson, of, Laurens High School, Laurens, S.C. 23, Milwaukee,
Jeff D'Amico, rhp, Northeast High School, St. Petersburg, Fla. 24,
Chicago (NL) (from Atlanta), John Ratliff, rhp, LeMoyne University.
25, Oakland, John Wasdin, rhp, Florida State. 26, Milwaukee (from Toronto),
Kelly Wunsch, lhp, Texas A&M. 27, Florida, Mark Valdes, rhp, University
of Florida. 28, Colorado, Jamey Wright, rhp, Westmoore HS, Oklahoma
City.
--
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Who won the Dodgers-Cards game that I watched part of on Wednesday night?

I know that Cory Snyder hit a home run and when I turned in, the Dodgers
were down by 1.....


'Saw

    I would just like to say that my younger brother just got drafted
    by the St. Louis Cardinals in the very, very early 19th round.  he's
    so good that they call him rubberneck.  Do you doubt me?  Just call
    or give me some mail and that I will prove it.
    
    Tony Santucci
    

 How about a Big Congrats or YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

 Seriously good luck to your brother. He's gotten a lot of good ink in
 Worcester....

 mike

    I thought guys got called "rubberneck" from watching pitches fly over
    the fence as homeruns.

    RE. 141
    
    That was just a joke, I just got the Jerky Boys Cd.  Seriously
    though, the scout will be at the house Tuesday of this week to
    iron out his contract.  He had said that he could be playing as
    early as this weekend for the the Card's minor league team the
    Redbirds out of Glenn Falls, NY.  He just got through playing
    at Fenway today for the New England College All-Stars.  He was
    named All New England player of the year,(played the wall at 
    Fenway like a pro).  Very proud oh him I am :-)  !!!!
    
    I keep updates..
    
    Tony Santucci

SF giants pitcher S????? has a perfect game through 7 innings today.

    Swift?   Any update?
    
    
    

    Infield single by Mitchell in the 8th; one hitter. 
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    
    Does anyone know whats the matter with Tony Gwynn? Haven't seen his
    name in the box scores for the past week or so..  
    
    
    							Wally

>    
>    Does anyone know whats the matter with Tony Gwynn? Haven't seen his
>    name in the box scores for the past week or so..  
>    
>    
>    							Wally


Well, if it's baseball and it's an injury, it's probably a pulled groin.

But I don't really know.  I haven't seen anything on him on the Internet.


fw

	I'm surprised that nobody from the Colorado contingent has mentioned
	this yet.  A unit manager in the CSC (Wayne Zumwalt) is about a week
	into his quest to attend 28 major league games in 28 days.  Over the 
	trip he will be visiting all 28 parks.  I think last night he was in 
	Los Angeles and tonight he will be in Baltimore.  If anyone's interested
	I'll type in his itinerary.  By the way, he will be the first person
	to do this.

	Kevin

    Not bad.. beats my 7 parks in 10 days trip of a few years ago...
    

      This guy must be spending his life savings on air fare and hotel....

    
    >This guy must be spending his life savings on air fare and hotel....
    
    My cubemate and I talked about this a couple weeks ago when Wayne left. 
    If you figure that most if not all of his trips will be short ones that
    cost about $80 a piece, then factor in that he probably got a discount
    because of the number of trips he is making, then his airfare would be
    somewhere in the neighborhood of $2200.  Add hotels of about $40 a
    night for another $1120 or so and the trip only costs $3320.  Of course
    this ignores food and paraphenalia, but we are probably talking about a
    total of around $5000 or so.  Not too unreasonable for the experience
    he would get and the fact that he will probably get into some book.
    
    Marc
    

Seems the paper listed a second mortgage around $4,800.00

He has been sending a Postcard from every game. He is also getting some air 
time on the local radio talk shows. 

    Weren't they doing a lot of the trip by car?? especially in the North
    East.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

He took a 2nd mortgage out on his house for this? Not exactly the way I'd pay
for a vacation...

Metz

I'm not being disparaging or anything, but 

	
		a) I could find a lot better uses for $4800

		b) I'd rather write a book than be in a book

		c) I think the guy who was making the rounds of the
		   minor league ballparks (including the one where you
		   can get a haircut down on the 1st base line) is doing
		   a more interesting trip.


JMHO,
'Saw

Just to set the record straight, Wayne didn't take out a second mortgage
to finance the trip.  I know, because he told me.  Also, there was an
article in the local newspaper, and it also told how he is financing
his trip.  Hell, it's almost a matter of public record.

Wayne Re-financed his house.  With the re-financing, he has the same
monthly payments, same number of payments left, and $5k to boot.  He
considered it "found money".  He expects his trip to cost about $4500.
He will be flying quite a bit, and it's the most expensive part of the
trip.  He will also be doing a lot of driving, and staying with friends
and friends of friends when he can.  He also wrote to all of the MLB
baseball teams asking for free tickets.  He even got some that way.

Wayne has also contacted the Guiness Book of World Record folks, and
found out that they don't have a category for this.  It is unclear
at this point whether or not this feat (if he pulls it off) will
qualify.  There are also 4 college students who are to try the same
thing in August of this year.

Now you know the rest of the story.


Jerry

'Saw we all spend money on things that other people would not think of
spending money on.

The Crazy Met

>'Saw we all spend money on things that other people would not think of
>spending money on.
>
>The Crazy Met


Right.  I wasn't putting him down or anything.  I can just think of better
things to spend money on...8^)

And what you said is so true, I'm starting a new business:

		Chest Hair Club for Men

I'll be the President, but not a client....8^)


'Saw

    Andre Agassiz is looking for you 'Saw!
    

    Florida trades Trevor Hoffman and two minor leaguers for Gary
    Sheffield and Rich Rodriguez.

trade was expected.

The Crazy Met

    Would the Mets like Dave Magadan back?
    

who plays 1B for Florida these days??

I can think of a bunch of teams that wouldn't mind having Magadan, at
least this year.

The Crazy Met

    Destrade.  Conine occasionally...
    

They might put Magadan at 1B for now.

The Crazy Met

    Sounds like Magadan is out...
    
    Xref: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com clari.sports.baseball:22021
    clari.local.florida:5847
    clari.local.california:10263 clari.sports.top:14500
    Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!wupost!looking!clarinews
    From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
    Newsgroups:
    clari.sports.baseball,clari.local.florida,clari.local.california,clari.sports.to
    op
    Subject: Florida Marlins trade for Gary Sheffield
    Keywords: baseball, men's professional
    Message-ID: <bb-marlinsU3uN215pe@clarinet.com>
    Date: Thu, 24 Jun 93 11:21:13 PDT
    Location: florida, california
    ACategory: sports
    Slugword: bb-marlins
    Priority: major
    Format: regular
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    	MIAMI (UPI) -- The Florida Marlins acquired power-hitting third
    baseman Gary Sheffield from San Diego for relief pitcher Trevor Hoffman
    and two minor league pitchers Thursday as the Padres continue to unload
    their high-priced talent.
    	The Padres also threw in relief pitcher Rich Rodriguez to complete
    the deal, Florida General Manager Dave Dombrowski said.
    	Sheffield, 24, challenged for the Triple Crown last year, but faces
    charges of resisting arrest stemming from an incident at a restaurant in
    Houston this month.
    	Sheffield was also suspended for three games Monday by the National
    League for charging the mound in a game June 10 against Los Angeles.
    	Sheffield, a native of Tampa, was traded from the Milwaukee Brewers
    to the Padres in March 1992 after an unhappy stay in Wisconsin, where he
    has admitted purposely making errors in hopes of promoting a trade.
    	He has been successful in San Diego, winning the National League
    batting title last year with a .330 average, with 33 home runs and 100
    runs batted in.
    	This year he is hitting .295 with 10 home runs and 36 RBI, but has
    expressed his displeasure with the Padres for getting rid of several of
    their stars, including Benito Santiago, now the Marlins' catcher.
    	Hoffman, a 25-year-old rookie right-hander, has been a pleasant
    surprise for Florida this year with a 2-2 record and a 3.28 earned run
    average, primarily as a setup man for closer Bryan Harvey.
    	The minor league pitchers traded to San Diego are Jose Martinez, the
    Marlins' second overall pick in the expansion draft last year, and
    Andres Berumen, both 22-year-old right-handers. Martinez is 6-4 with a
    4.28 ERA with Edmonton in the Pacific Coast League. Berumen is 8-2 with
    the Marlins' Class A High Desert affiliate.
    	Other clubs who reportedly showed interest in Sheffield included the
    Boston Red Sox, New York Mets and the Kansas City Royals.
    	Padres' new general manager Randy Smith was reportedly under orders
    from the club's ownership to trade Sheffield and first baseman Fred
    McGriff in a continuing effort to lower the payroll.
    	Former general manager Joe McIlvaine submitted his resignation two
    weeks ago after receiving the edict.
    	The expansion Marlins reportedly had limited their payroll to $17.5
    million for this year, but that cap apparently has been adjusted to
    accommodate Sheffield's $3.11 million contract which runs through the
    1994 season.
    	The odd Marlin out in the trade appears to be former Mets third
    baseman Dave Magadan, signed as a free agent last December. He said he
    was not pleased when he was informed of the possibility of the trade
    following a newspaper report Wednesday.
    	``I realize Gary is a heck of a player and an All Star,'' said
    Magadan, who is now likely to go on the trading block. ``Certainly, to
    get someone like him is a feather in an organization's cap. On the
    other hand I've got to wonder about me. I certainly didn't sign with the
    Marlins to be a guy coming off the bench, which is what I would be if
    he were to come over here.''
    	Magadan, also of Tampa, is hitting .288 with the Marlins.
    	The Marlins also announced the club was calling up rightfielder
    Darrell Whitmore from Edmonton, and he is expected to start Friday
    night against the Montreal Expos. Whitmore has been hitting over .350 in
    Triple A while Marlins right fielder Junior Felix has been struggling
    in the field and at the plate with a .238 average.
    

    	It's a sad day indeed when fans of teams like the Pirates and
    Padres have to pay for MLB management's posturing for the upcoming
    labor negotiations.  Must be like being that canary in a coal mine.
    
    				/Don

    
    > It's a sad day indeed when fans of teams like the Pirates and
    > Padres have to pay for MLB management's posturing for the upcoming
    > labor negotiations.  Must be like being that canary in a coal mine.
    
    It's sad, but all things being equal I'd still rather follow a team 
    having to do what the Pads and Pirates are doing and actually working
    to make the best of it than one doing what the Red Sox are Mets have
    done recently.  Not that it justifies the system or creates a level 
    playing field, but in these cases with money comes stupidity, or so it 
    would seem.
    
    glenn
    

    	Slobs are on the other side of the conspiracy Glenn.  A big market
    team that doesn't want to share local revenue.  Either way the fans are
    losers in this little public morality play the owners are staging. 
    I've been to my one Fenway game this year and plan on doing the rest of
    my baseball watching in McCoy, where it's cheaper and more enjoyable.
    
    				/Don

    I heard season ticket owners are suing the Padres for fraud.  Ought
    to be interesting...
    

    > I heard season ticket owners are suing the Padres for fraud.  Ought
    > to be interesting...
    
    They never should have sent out that letter "promising" the fans that
    certain players would not be moved.  That's got to be one of the
    dumbest things a baseball team has ever done, making a commitment like
    that when you never know what might happen with an individual player 
    or your team overall.  I suppose perhaps an official letter could be 
    used as a basis for a claim of fraud, since it was written to convince
    season-ticket holders to renew...
    
    glenn 

    	Hey, every year the Pats send us a newsletter saying they're going
    to have a great year.  I wonder...
    
    				/Don

    Reminds me of that case on LA LAW against da Bears... of course Dikka
    said "if you wanna be a fair weather fan not back your team, move to
    New England".
    

No one mentioned that wild fielder's choice in yesterday's San Fran game.

It went 8-9-6-4 FC.  I guess Clark thought the ball was caught, and it 
wasn't so he headed back to first, and got "forced" at second.

It kind of sucked for the guy who hit the ball because it was a great hit
that the CF couldn't get to, but ends up with an 0-fer at bat.....


'Saw

    
> It went 8-9-6-4 FC.  I guess Clark thought the ball was caught, and it 
> wasn't so he headed back to first, and got "forced" at second.
> 
> It kind of sucked for the guy who hit the ball because it was a great hit
> that the CF couldn't get to, but ends up with an 0-fer at bat.....
    
    Bonds.  Barry Bonds.
    
    glenn
    

>    Bonds.  Barry Bonds.
    
Yeah, that Bonds guy.  Man I felt bad for him, losing a hit like that ;^)


'Saw    

I thought the scoring was 8-9-4-6. That would make sense since the 2nd baseman
is the cutoff man for hits to roght and right-center field.

The Crazy Met

>I thought the scoring was 8-9-4-6. That would make sense since the 2nd baseman
>is the cutoff man for hits to roght and right-center field.
>
>The Crazy Met

Yes, you're right.  I transposed the figures when entering them, and didn't
feel like going back to fix it...


'Saw

    Here is mine
    	c.  daulton
    	1b. galaragga
    	2b. thompson
    	3b  williams
    	ss  ozzie smith
    	of  bonds
    	    van slyke
    	    kruk

    Van Slyke broke his collar bone, so he's out...
    Kruk isn't an OF...he plays 1B...
    
    I'd go with this...
    
    C  Piazza               Daulton
    1B Galarraga            Bagwell, Kruk
    2B Thompson             Sandberg
    SS Larkin               Blauser
    3B Williams             Hollins
    OF Bonds                Dykstra
       Grissom              Bonilla
       Gant                 Merced 
    
     P Glavine, Burkett, Greene, Benes, Mulholland, L. Smith, Myers, Harvey

    Despite record breaking attendance figures in Mile High, Galaraga
    doesn't stand a chance of getting voted in.
    
    Are Colorado fans skeptical due to the high altitude, brain dead due to
    the high altitude, or stuffing the ballot box for John Elway?

    
    >>Are Colorado fans skeptical due to the high altitude, brain dead due to
    >>the high altitude, or stuffing the ballot box for John Elway?
    
    
    Mac attempts to make a funny, Film At 11!!
    
    (8^)
    
    JaKe
    
    

    My picks (28 players, 1 per team required)

    Starters              Reserves               Pitchers
    c  M.Piazza (LA)      c  D.Daulton (PHI)     p  S.Avery (ATL)
    1b A.Galarraga (COL)  1b J.Kruk (PHI)        p  T.Glavine (ATL)
    2b R.Thompson (SF)    2b R.Sandberg (CHI)    p  J.Burkett (SF)
    ss J.Blauser (ATL)    ss B.Larkin (CIN)      p  T.Greene (PHI)
    3b M.Williams (SF)    3b D.Hollins (PHI)     p  K.Hill (MTL)
    of B.Bonds (SF)       of O.Merced (PIT)      p  A.Benes (SD)
    of M.Grissom (MTL)    of B.Bonilla (NY)      p  R.Myers (CHI)
    of K.Mitchell (CIN)   of T.Gwynn (SD)        p  B.Harvey (FLA)
                          1b J.Bagwell (HOU)     p  L.Smith (STL)
                          1b M.Grace (CHI)       p  R.Beck (SF)

    Do they pick 28 or 25?  I thought it was 25...
    

Mr. Kile in Houston could deserve All-Star status...

JD

    
    Galaraga won't get voted in...what are the current vote tallies?  Last
    I heard (about 4 days or so) Denver had collected 900,000 votes all
    ready to send in...
    
    After a dismal May showing for the Rockies, they are (I think) 12-15 in
    the month of June.  Not too shappy for a team that pitches so slow that
    it can be used for to make tar.
    
    In the battle of the expansion teams, the Marlins lead the way because
    of the 2nd best relievers core in the National league, with the Mets
    taking up the rear.
    
    Marc
    

      re-1
    
      Correct.  Galeraga does deserve to be in it.  They will probable wait
    til the last day to send in votes.  He's still hitting .410 before
    lasted nite.
    
      Once the Rockies buy a pitching staff,  then they will be even more
    competative.  They don't have a bullpen.
    
      Tim

    I'd go with this...    (if there's 28 not 25)
    
    C  Piazza               Daulton
    1B Galarraga            Bagwell, Kruk, Grace
    2B Thompson             Sandberg
    SS Larkin               Blauser, Smith
    3B Williams             Hollins
    OF Bonds                Dykstra
       Grissom              Bonilla
       Gant                 Merced 
    
     P Glavine, Burkett, Greene, Benes, Mulholland, L. Smith, Myers, Harvey
       Smoltz                        
    

    Ah know it's early, but ya think there's some grumblings down
    yonder in the City of Brotherly Shove?  A leetle case of swollen
    glands at the Vet?
    
    BobHunt would be gnashing his teeth in here
    
    Wonder if the Phils brought back a member of their '64 Gaspipe team
    to throw out the first ball....
    
    MikeL
    

    All the current division leaders are gaspipe-able.  The Tigers have
    apparently already gaspiped, much earlier than would have been
    expected just 10 days ago (they can still recover and get back up there).  
    The Giants and Phillies both have pitching questions with a lot of
    hurlers performing over their heads in the first half.  The AL West is a
    basket case.  There could be some very interesting divisional battles
    into this September before the new playoff system banning pennant races
    takes effect next year...
    
    glenn
       

   > apparently already gaspiped, much earlier than would have been
   > expected just 10 days ago (they can still recover and get back up there).  
    
    earlier than who expected?  Yeah, they're slumping, but this road
    stretch they're on was a key one.  Not easy playing 20 of 24 on the
    road.  That first loss was a big one to them mentally...
    

   >> apparently already gaspiped, much earlier than would have been
   >> expected just 10 days ago (they can still recover and get back up there).  
   > 
   > earlier than who expected?  Yeah, they're slumping, but this road
   > stretch they're on was a key one.  Not easy playing 20 of 24 on the
   > road.  That first loss was a big one to them mentally...
    
    Anyone, I presume.  They were playing something like .630 ball, and you
    don't expect a team playing that well to just turn around and drop 10 
    in a row.  A gradual decline, yes, but not that quickly. 
    Anyway, the Tigers still have 10 more of the next 14 on the road I know
    they're at home this weekend, at least)?  That can't help, but I still 
    think that when the bats wake back up they'll win their share of games
    over the rest of the season...
    
    glenn
    

    Sounds like someone else is not happy with the elimination of pennant
    races.  In baseball it truly takes 150+ games to establish a clear
    winner and the greatest drama in its history was in the final games of
    those races - such as 1967, 51 and on.
    
    And then came television dominance of sports and the concept of a Curt
    Gowdy as the image of greatness and the passing away of the red
    barber,mel allen standards ie who needs drama.
    
    And said tv, we can't make any profit from all this "drama" 'cause we
    can't schedule it for advertisers not promote and market it and anyway
    if there is some money in it we can market and promote "competing for
    the last wildcard spot/ hometeam advantage" alongside ww rasslin.
    
    The most entertainment I have seen in baseball in the 90s was the
    pennant race between dodgers and braves and the Justice homerun off
    Dibble as the single play (not Bream's long run home) of the decade.
    
    And lets call the regular season winners pennant winners.  Playoffs and
    world series are nice entertainment but real drama was in pennant
    chase.  But alas this is last true meaningful regular season for
    organized sports (football does have some excellent regular season
    action - g'nts vs skins).
    
    bill

>      I'm just a casual baseball fan so pardon my ignorance, but is 
>     the new playoff system a done deal?


I don't know but I hope not.

I guess I'm a purist but even the thought of an LCS turns my stomach.

The pennant is winning your league.  AL East Champs means NOTHING....

Put 'em all in the same league like in the old days, none of this
division stuff....

And while you're at it, make 'em wear wool 8^)


'Saw

Oh Gosh - baseball has changed its rules and the way it is
played many times.  Another round of playoffs is great, IMO.

Too many times the regular season is over too early.  
What's pure about baseball?  The DH?  Crazy "Save" stats?
Artificial Turf?   Domed Stadiums?  Lock outs?  Whiney 
Millionaires?  

JD

    
    Yes, the eight-team playoff for next season is a reality.  Some final
    details need to be worked out, but the current plan is that the
    second-place team will be matched up with the first-place team in each
    division.
    
> Oh Gosh - baseball has changed its rules and the way it is
> played many times.  Another round of playoffs is great, IMO.
    
    But you're a professed non-fan of baseball, who doesn't watch the
    playoffs that already exist, right?
    
> Too many times the regular season is over too early.  
    
    The regular season ends the very day it's scheduled to end.  No sooner,
    no later.
    
> What's pure about baseball?  The DH?  Crazy "Save" stats?
> Artificial Turf?   Domed Stadiums?  Lock outs?  Whiney 
> Millionaires?
    
    None of those things, but the postseason still is, to a great extent.
    Is your point that expanded playoffs will join this list of dumb ideas?
    Then I agree totally...
    
    glenn
    

Are they going to shorten the season or will baseball start competing with
football as the sport that people fall asleep to on thanksgiving day?

I can't wait to see a night playoff game in colorado in November


Metz

    	Ah, JD just figures if they keep expanding the playoffs then the
    Mets are bound to get it someday.
    
    				/Don

Glenn -

I'm not a professed non-fan of baseball.  I've grown to like it less
and less over the years,but still follow it.  I see nothing
wrong with expanded playoffs.  I think they should shorten
the season, bring back doubleheaders, ban the DH, ban domes,
and stop hiding behind phrases like "for the integrity of
the game..."

So far, I've heard all the arguements, which are usually that
it will 'kill the purity' (HA!), or that it will allow sub par
teams in.  For every sub par team, it will allow a team like
the 78 Sox, for example, to play in the postseason.  We ain't talking
about the NHL or the NBA here...

As a NL fan, I'd love, for example to see Atlanta, San Fran, St. Louis and
Philly battle in the playoffs.  How that is bad for the game is beyond
me.

I'd rather have one more round of playoffs then the DH, lockouts, Tampa
St. Pete whoring for a team, whiney superstars, or stuffy commishs 
saying "Integrity"

JD

> For every sub par team, it will allow a team like
> the 78 Sox, for example, to play in the postseason.
    
    Only one of the greatest pennant races in history featuring some of its
    most memorable moments reduced to a best-of-five in October.  Is that a 
    fair trade?  And what's the point, anyway?  Do fans really need to be hit
    over the head and told to wake up "because this is the *playoffs*, man!"
    in order for the competition to be important, meaningful and
    interesting?  Maybe in this day and age they do, but that's not
    goodness in my book.
    
> As a NL fan, I'd love, for example to see Atlanta, San Fran, St. Louis and
> Philly battle in the playoffs.  How that is bad for the game is beyond
> me.
    
    It's not necessarily "bad" for the game.  It's just an inferior 
    substitute to St. Louis-Philly and Atlanta-SF in pennant
    race battles for most of the month of September as opposed to a
    five-game mini-series.  And that's the entire point: if the second-place
    team is clearly subpar then the 5-game divisional playoff is an unfair
    travesty, and if the two teams are well-matched and they'd provide
    plenty of excitement anyway then the playoff is redundant.  The only
    difference, as Mr. Breen so correctly pointed out, is that the networks
    can sell the playoffs based on fixed schedules but they can't do that
    with an unpredictable pennant race. 
    
    glenn
    

But Tommy -

Baseball isn't pure and good.  It hides behind travesty and jerks
like Bart Glad He's Gone Giamatti.  They trot out integrity of the
sport, but let a 7-time loser like Steve Howe sign for millions.  For
the good of the game?   And on and on.  

Without TV revenues, baseball is daid.  Multimillion whiner ballplayers
are daid.  That's life folks.   Now, I'm daid set against any other
expansion of playoffs.  And one thing I'll agree with the anti-playoff
folks on - I don't like the format.  I think it should be 4 home games
to 1...

JD

> Without TV revenues, baseball is daid.  Multimillion whiner ballplayers
> are daid.  That's life folks.
    
    Sounds great to me.  If that's life I'll take it.  No more baseball on 
    national TV in excahnge for no more "multimillion whiner ballplayers"?  
    Where do I sign up?
    
> Baseball isn't pure and good.  It hides behind travesty and jerks
> like Bart Glad He's Gone Giamatti.  They trot out integrity of the
> sport, but let a 7-time loser like Steve Howe sign for millions.  For
> the good of the game?   And on and on.  
    
    Yawn.  In other words, because there's some things that you don't like
    about baseball, anything and everything that's good about the game
    should go down the crapper too, for consistency's sake.
    
    This Steve Howe issue has been beat to death, too.  It's been explained
    many times that Howe's continued presence in the game has nothing to do
    with baseball and everything to do with the society we live in.
    Steve Howe was banished from the game under its strongest possible
    terms.  He was re-instated despite Fay Vincent's vehement protests in
    an external legal proceeding.  Where is your indignation for Lawrence
    Taylor's participation in football or Roy Tarpley's impending return in
    basketball, where the leagues themselves have welcomed the players back
    with open arms per their policies?  Oh yeah, I forgot, LT is only a 
    two-time loser with cocaine, then *he* decided that alcohol wasn't a 
    problem (Howe has been booted just for alcohol use in violation of his 
    after-care program) and the NFL figured it'd better agree with him or
    else, and of course his story about just being sick was good enough when 
    on the brink of that big third strike he was found passed out on the 
    side of the highway.  Baseball is no more immune to the laws of the
    land and to the rights of individuals in the 1990s than anyone else.
    
    glenn
    

      I'll get in my pennies worth,
    
      If they do the 8 team playoff (which I think is fine),  then they
    should shorten the season.  Baseball is way to long.  162 games plus
    maybe another possible 21 playoff games?  Way too much.  It doesn't
    take 162 games to figure out who's the best in each division.
    
      So I agree with JD.  More playoffs should = shorter regular season.
    
    
      Tim
    
     

    Fine do a regular shorter season; but if you want 8 team playoffs then
    do this:
    
    No divisions! 2 leagues of 14 teams each. The teams play each other
    12 times for 156 games. Top 4 teams get in, 1 plays 4, 2 plays 3.
    Series is 4 of 7, with a 2-2-1-1-1 format - give the home team a
    greater advanatage than a 2-3-2 series does. Same for the second round,
    better team has home field. WS is a 2-3-2 format, alternating between
    the AL and NL for home field.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Glenn
FWIW -  Roy Tarpley should never be allowed to wear a uniform again.  LT is a two-time
loser.  once more and he's gone.  And he should be gone.  However, neither the NFL
or the NBA put forth this 'integrity of the game' BS that baseball spouts.  

I loathe the phoney stuff shirts like Bart ACH-i-mati who become commishs.

Bring back doubleheaders.  

JD

Who won the Atlanta-St. Louis game last night?

All through the wicked thunderstorms we had early in the evening, my 
power stayed on.  At 11pm, just when the game was getting interesting,
you guessed it, my power went out!


'Saw

    
> Who won the Atlanta-St. Louis game last night?
    
    The Cardinals, 3-1.
    

Great,

Thanks for the info Glenn.


btw, has anyone else seen Reardon since he shaved off his beard?  He's
not loooking like Dan Schneider any more.....


'Saw

    Did anyone see the replay of what I thought was expo grissom catch last
    night on espn - looked like one of the greatest I've seen.
    
    But there are so many terrific center fielders around today and such a
    great treat to watch for one who teethed on Dominic (greater than his
    brother joe) dimag and Jimmy Piersall.
    
    Of course I can think of one team who doesn't have a terrific defensive
    center fielder and obviously hasn't considered the defensive aspects of
    the position since the days of fred lynn.
    
    bb

Speaking of that game last night wasn't that play by Maddux on the high hopper
bueatiful or what? It's nice to see a pitcher field the posistion as well.
Looks like he's earn those 8 straight GG's if he makes those plays routinely

mike

    
    So, any predictions on who is gonna win da All Star game?
    
    Score?
    
    MVP?
    
    have at it!
    
    I remain,
    hopping to add a little mo' activity in heah!
    Kev
    

National league 4-2 
Barry Bonds MVP (so the announcers can blather on about him being the 2nd
father-son due to win blah,blah,blah and then compare bonds to Griffey .Jr as
to who the best player in baseball is (bonds,hands down right now IMHO) and if
.jr will ever reach his potential blah,blah,blah..)

I think camden Yards should get the MVP award for most valuable park.

Metz

who was the first father-son team??

The Crazy Met

There was some blathering last year about Griffey .Jr and .Sr doing something
as the first father son team. I don't know if it was hit homers in the all-star
game or won all-star MVP's or whatnot.


Metz

    Metz, you really called this one.
    
    10 minutes into the game Bonds doubled and McCarver said that if Bonds
    hits a HR he would become part of the 2nd father-son team to hit homers
    in the All-star game. 
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Griffey's were the first father-son All-star game MVP's.  Bobby Bonds
    has also been one...
    
    AL up 4-2 in the 4th...
    

    
    I predict the AL will win it to notch #6 consecutive.
    
    I also predict Griffey will get the MVP.
    
    I remain,
    the new Carnac!
    Kev
    

    Well Kev you were right on but it has become an easy prediction.
    
    Why aren't people belittling nl as an inferior league as they did
    prviously with nl streaks.  American League is superior right now but
    not a level nl was around 63-66.
    
    But of course with a short series nl speed can compensate.

>                 -< nl inferior now? is that general opinion? >-
    
>    Why aren't people belittling nl as an inferior league as they did
>    prviously with nl streaks.  American League is superior right now but
>    not a level nl was around 63-66.
    
     I think people ARE saying that the majority of outstanding young talent
     today is in the American League.  The reason people are not belittling the
     National League is probably because the AL hasn't put together such a
     dominating all-star winning streak (remember, the NL won 30 of 36 games
     in one stretch -- hard to explain as just a fluke).  Six straight doesn't
     compare to 20 of 21, or 30 of 36.  If the AL continues to win all-star
     games and world series titles, then the NL may become more widely
     recognized as a somewhat inferior league, unless they turn things around.

    .222, my sentiments exactly; I am just not sure what consensus there is
    of that opinion.
    
    I picked up a book, the biography of Leo Durocher ("Leo the Lip") the
    other day and had to finish it.  this note previously mentioned he was
    from w.springfield. (book was free)
    
    Definitely a colorful character and by all baseball standards,
    especially the combination of his playing and managing, deserves to be
    in the hall of fame.  And if it was his mouth and marriages (such as to
    Larraine Day virtually the same day as her divorce) that held him out
    before, certainly in this day of Imuses etc, prurience should not keep
    him out, except...
    
    A lingering suspicion that his gambling and gambling associations may
    circumstantially indicate that he bet on games.
    
    Another item.  One of the key old timers keeping him out is Stan
    Musial; One pushing for him in HOF is Ted Williams.  The former of
    course a recipient of a few "(Stick it in his) Ear" jobs, a betrayal of
    the don't hit the white stars code ignored by the color and social
    status blind Lip.  Not that the Man ever was beaned, but plunked yes.
    
    Also, Leo was considered anti-union and possibly anti-semitic both
    doubtful as Durocher was simply obsessed with winning.
    
    Considered by friend (he had many, Willie Mays in forefront) and foe
    alike a tremendous defensive shortstop and gifted manager.
    
    Will swap book, awaiting offer.

>      Kind of fitting that before the All-Star game, CBS had a bunch of aged,
>      has-been rock stars singing "Take Me Out To The Ballgame" because time
>      is passing baseball by.
    
    They also featured Barry Bonds, who provides as perfect a combination
    of grace, athleticism and skill as exists in any sport.  The man is the
    Michael Jordan of baseball (probably in more ways than one; considering
    the controversy around each).  People may not see it and that's their 
    choice; if they don't they're missing a hell of a show.  As you know, I
    appreciate what Jordan can do for the very same reasons, regardless of
    my personal preferences in sport.
    
    In any case, for me, "more athletic" does not equal "more exciting". 
    Football and basketball, particularly the NFL and NBA, have packaged 
    their "excitement" to almost ideally suit the TV screen.  Hell, when NFL
    games were running long, they just removed plays, "action" if you will, 
    with practically zero complaint from those who follow the game on the 
    tube.  No arguing that point; baseball falls way behind in television 
    appeal.  But "most exciting" is by definition a matter of taste; if 
    football and basketball is where the mass appeal resides, so be it.
    
    glenn
    

The game that you find boring, probably the 1-0 pitchers duel, I find
to be baseball at its best. Every baserunner becomes important; every
pitch and the sequence of pitches becomes crucial. It is like a chess
game on the field with the strategies that come into play. 1 out, 3-2
count, man on first, down 1-0 in the 7th does the runner go on the pitch??
Football can't compare.

The Crazy Met

    
    Well, it looks like I'm disagreeing with both of ya.  The 1-0 pitchers
    dual is the most boring thing around.  I find it impossible to watch a
    (usually) overweight, beer-belly guy playing catch with some guy who
    hides behing a mask - HAIL, ya cain't even see his face!  Meanwhile, ya
    got 7 other multi-millionare "so called athletes" standing around.
    B O R I N G ! ! ! ! ! !
    
    10-3, 7-2, 5-2 at least have some action.  Balls get hit, people move
    around, errors get made and ya even get the chance to wonder if the 
    trailing team may do something creative to "make a game out of it".
    
    Stiil, it always was and probably allways will be my least favorite
    sport.
    
    I remain,
    wanting action!
    Kev
    

      Well everyone has their favorite sport!  I just like football the
    best.  Too many "on the edge of your seat" Bronco games will do that. 
    Its exciting to watch Elway drive at the end of some games. 
    Frustrating to watch him/them fall behind in the 1st place, but pulling
    it out for the Win is fun.
    
      As to the Rockies,  I bet most all expansion teams pitching stunk in
    the 1st 1-3 years,  especially the 1st year!  So saying the Rockies
    should be revoked is not called for.  I guess the Marlins should be
    yanked,  not to mention the Mets from '62 or whatever that year was
    that they had the worst record.
    
      And Buffalo needing a team?  Doesn't the state of New York have 2
    teams already?  Move the mets to the Buffalo chip city;^)
                                   
      Tim

    I have begun to watch more of sportscenter and espn baseball show,
    mainly because I've become more aware of its quality and I've noticed..
    
    An unusual amount of INCREDIBLE, AMAZING ATHLETIC feats performed,
    usually by the many centerfielders playing baseball today:
    Lofton,Grissom,Lewis and many others.  In fact, not since the days of
    Tris Speaker have there been so many (Yes, Tris is definitely before my
    time as Willie Mays is before most noters time- I did have a coach, who
    played cf in nl (cubs,cinci) in 30s).
    
    The geometrics of running down and sometimes leaping for a catch in
    centerfield makes this play on of the best in sports although I would
    take a padded wall's impact over oakraider's tatum's hit.
    
    Of course one of the great plays in baseball, especially in fenway, is
    the ball down the line in the corner with everyone running which is
    half the time eliminated by @#$%^& (help IMUS! your worst
    descriptions!) non fans interfering; said reptiles should never be
    allowed to darken fenways' door and be sent to the same hell that
    umbrella man hopefully resides in.
    
    But, this bit of stepping into box,out of box, back in box, now pitcher
    to resin, back in box, shake off sign,out of box goto loop1....

    
    > As to the Rockies,  I bet most all expansion teams pitching stunk in
    > the 1st 1-3 years,  especially the 1st year!  So saying the Rockies
    > should be revoked is not called for.  I guess the Marlins should be
    > yanked,  not to mention the Mets from '62 or whatever that year was
    > that they had the worst record.
    
    I was teasing *you*, Tim, not the Rockies.  Apparently if the Rockies
    had to rely on you they would fall just shy of the 4M+ in attendance
    they're going to realize this season.  Everyone of whom is bored to
    tears and mortified that the Rockies are too sissy to play in the rain,
    of course...
    
    glenn
    

                 
    > An unusual amount of INCREDIBLE, AMAZING ATHLETIC feats performed,
    > usually by the many centerfielders playing baseball today:
    > Lofton,Grissom,Lewis and many others.  In fact, not since the days of
    > Tris Speaker have there been so many (Yes, Tris is definitely before my
    > time as Willie Mays is before most noters time- I did have a coach, who
    > played cf in nl (cubs,cinci) in 30s).
    
    Absolutely.  Contrary to popular belief, there are more great athletes
    in baseball today than there ever have been at any other single period
    in baseball history.  While other sports are attracting many great 
    athletes too, the talent base has expanded exponentially, primarily
    with the help of Latin America.
    
    I don't find the athletic feats performed in boring, blowout baseball 
    games any less interesting that athletic feats performed in boring, 
    blowout games in other sports (and for *me*, there's nothing more
    boring than NBA regular-season basketball).  But I'm a baseball fan, 
    which is the whole point.
    
    glenn
    

    I would consider hitting a 97mph fastball a feat which requires the
    batter to possess an "amazing athletic ability".
    
    					Steve

>    I don't think that's contrary to popular belief at all. And the other
>    sports aren't just "attracting great athetes too", they're attracting
>    the better athletes.
    
    But very few who would otherwise be superstars in baseball.  Another
    myth created by some relatively marginal success by Bo Jackson and
    Deion Sanders in baseball.  There are plenty of athletes to go around,
    and most of them have one sport or another written all over them by the
    time they're out of high school (yes, a lack of participation in the 
    first place is something of a problem of unrealized talent potential for
    baseball, but Latin America has gone a long way in making up for it).
    
>    But the point is, that there is on average one and 
>    on a good night two or three displays of "amazing athletic ability" in a 
>    ML baseball game and on a lot of nights there aren't any. In basketball 
>    or football there's usually one every other play.
    
    Again, your opinion.  For me, every other time Roger Clemens delivers a
    pitch to the plate there's a display of "amazing athletic ability".  It
    just depends on what you're looking for.  And yes, Clemens may be one
    of the best of all time, but there are many other examples as well (the
    next thing you know we'll have Mr. Saia and the Sawmain in here telling 
    us that every time Rusty Wallace makes a left turn another amazing
    athletic feat has taken place ;-).
    
    glenn
    

      >  Any game where the majority of the
      >  players on the field are standing around doing absolutley nothing but
      >  paying attention on any given play is by definition unexciting.
    
    "By definition" means requiring no argument, obvious, by universal
    agreement.  Baseball is by no stretch of the imagination "by
    definition" unexciting.  That's 100% opinion.  As has already been 
    pointed out, most of a football game is spent standing around, with 
    the ball dead and the players not even anticipating action for up to
    minutes at a time, but I personally still consider football to be 
    more exciting than basketball, or even better soccer, where the ball 
    and all its players are almost continuously in action.  So I think 
    this definition fails, miserably, except for maybe soccer fans.
    
    When the ball is in play in baseball (just as much as it's in play in
    football, and actually more), yes, very few players are involved in a 
    given play.  Baseball has clearly defined spatial relationships, like
    soccer.  That's the nature of the game; a guy doesn't have 11 people
    chasing him around when he fields and throws a ball.  Whether that 
    makes a play more or less exciting is a matter of taste.  As an aside, 
    one thing that such a well-defined spacial relationship lends is a 
    much better view of what's going on when the game is viewed *in person*.  
    Football has its own advanatages to being seen in person (and I prefer to 
    view it that way for aesthetic reasons), but seeing *exactly* what's
    happened-- not just patterns or trends-- on each and every play is not 
    one of them.  As for baseball, this is why I've consistently argued that 
    television is one of the worst things that's ever happened to the 
    perception of the sport itself, because the game is meant to be watched 
    at the ballpark.
    
    glenn
    

     >  The point was, however,
     >  that even when the ball is in play in baseball the majority of the 
     >  people on the field are mere spectators. The key phrase being "when 
     >  the ball is in play". Unexciting? You betcha.
    
    This point might make logical sense if you're talking about playing the
    game, and getting bored with it after receiving little action.  But 
    spectating?  This is what I don't understand.  If a player or players 
    are involved in the difficult tasks of throwing a strike, and hitting 
    the ball, and then catching it, and then throwing it accurately, why is 
    it "unexciting" if everyone in the field is not directly involved in 
    the play?  How many players must be involved before it does become
    exciting?  I don't understand that pre-condition to excitement.  It
    doesn't exist for me, and apparently millions of others.  Now if you're 
    just not turned on by these individual athletic tasks as a matter of 
    taste, I can understand that.  My objection was to the "by definition"
    statement.  That's like me saying by definition football isn't exciting
    because the players don't play offense and defense and therefore are
    inactive for fully half the game, and I'm bored by that.  I don't care 
    what the guy's doing when he's not involved in the play of the game...
    
    glenn
    

    
    #1 sport for action  ->   Cricket
    #2 sport for action  ->   Golf (despite the fact that the club is only
    				    in contact with the ball for 0.005
    				    seconds on each swing)
    
    
    So there!
    
    I remain,
    calculating 0.005 x 80 (times ya hit the ball) = 0.40 seconds total
    time ya play!
    Kev
    

>  Just for the record. I realize I'm being a pain in the butt 

Nothing new there; status quo.

The Crazy Met

    
    >    Just for the record. I realize I'm being a pain in the butt and maybe
    >    I was trying to liven up an otherwise dull SPORTSnotes day. *BUT* I do
    >    firmly believe that baseball is one dull-assed game and I'm not *just* 
    >    trying to be argumentative.
    
    Not taken that way at all; I respect your opinion...
    
    glenn
    

>>          Clemens throws the pitch.
>>          Mattingly grounds to short
>>          Valentin throws him out. 
>>          Nobody else on the field moved a muscle.

	If that was the case I'd be all over the team.  That is one of the 
	crucial things we stress.  On every play everyone SHOULD be moving.
	To someone who does not enjoy baseball it would appear that the 
	other players are just scrathing their collective butts while this
	play is taking place, but I'd bet that the catcher has sprinted down 
	the line in case of an overthrow, among others who are also shifting.

	Granted this is nothing like the 43 dive play in football where the
	play will only work if EVERYONE completes their assignment, but it
	isn't quite as dull as you are making it.


>>        Just for the record. I realize I'm being a pain in the butt and maybe
>>        I was trying to liven up an otherwise dull SPORTSnotes day. *BUT* I do
>>        firmly believe that baseball is one dull-assed game and I'm not *just* 
>>        trying to be argumentative.


	Yeah, right.

	billl

    
    >>They also featured Barry Bonds, who provides as perfect a combination
    >>of grace, athleticism and skill as exists in any sport.  The man is the
    >>Michael Jordan of baseball (probably in more ways than one; considering
    
    All that and BRAIN DEAD too!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    
    >>   What could be *less* exciting? Let's examine this:

    >>      Clemens throws the pitch.
    >>      Mattingly grounds to short
    >>      Valentin throws him out. 
    >>      Nobody else on the field moved a muscle.
    
    What would make this scenario exciting???
    
    	Clemens unleashes 97 mph fastball, "slightly" off course.
    	Ball slams into Mattingly's nose
    	Blood gushes everywhere, prompting whoever's televising the game to
    	turn EVERY DAMNED camera they got onto the horror scene, close-ups
    	etc.
    	Benches empty, everybody carrying bats
    	Both teams club each other to near death.
    
    That would be REAL excitement.  Sorta like the Gladiators and the
    chariot races and the Lions and the Christians.
    
    Blood and guts and gore, bring em on
    
    JaKe
    

      TCM, see what you started in the Charger file;^)
    
      Glenn,  did I furgit the smilies in my defensive note?  I'm glad your
    having a good day;^)))))
    
    
      And I will agree that there are some amazing catches and hits.  I'm
    not sure hitting a 90+ mph fastball takes alot of athleticizm.  I think
    its more of a eye hand coordination.
    
      I'm suprised no one mentioned hokey....
    
      Tim
                            

>      TCM, see what you started in the Charger file;^)
    
    Tangents-R-US at your service :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    
                           
    

    I see more excitement in baseball than Tommie, I guess.
    
    Not every play, of course, but I enjoy watching a well-turned
    double-play, a steal attempt with a throw from home, a ball headed for
    the hole with the SS making a back-handed stop and the ensuing throw,
    a deep hit ball to center with the relay needed to catch the runner at
    home, the 2nd baseman fielding the ball and working the DP, a pick-off
    play that forces the runner into a run-down, a shoestring catch
    anywhere, a backhanded-running-at-full-tilt catch in the field, a
    well-played ball off the wall and the throw to second, a fielder faking
    the throw behind the runner and then getting him out at the next base,
    a close play at home, very high fly ball on a sunny and windy day, and
    watching a good outfielder getting a great jump on a flyball.  I've
    always enjoyed the defense in baseball more than the offense (except
    for the Tigers at the plate, of course.)
    
    To each his own.
    
    Lee

I think it boils down to what you like.

Football and basketball offer instant gratification, kind of like a 
quickie.

Baseball and soccer are much slower, you see things develop over a time
period (an offensive play in soccer starting deep with the defenders,
or watching a pitcher slowly lose his control as he tires).   

Baseball is a little more tantalizing.  Watching a hitter work the count
to 3-2 in a clutch situation can be excitingly maddening....


Actually, the only sport I really don't like that much is basketball,
and I can even find good things in that....


'Saw

    
    I'm Staying out of this one.....

>     But whatever the reason I just cannot bring myself to watch an entire
>     baseball game during this early in the regular season. 
    
      Precisely how I fell about the boring game of basketball.  Can't watch
      it before the playoffs.

    I just cant watch BBall on TV, I think it was George Carlin who said
    Watching baseball is like watching old people.... Never mind.
    
    In all fairness to baseball, if you watch 9 innings (or I should say if
    I watched 9 innings) there would be at least 2 or 3 plays that actully
    had some excitment in it.  Steal attempts are awsome and double plays
    but other then that its good for people suffering from sleep disorders.
    
    								MairB
    
    You cant match the excitment of Basketball...

    Well I can say this about the kids in Maynard, Ma., Tommy.  A friend of
    mine built a baseball field in his BACKYARD that puts the rest of the
    fields in town to shame.  The kids flock to this place.  8-13 year olds
    play 3-4 nine inning games a day.  And it's a beautiful thing to watch.
    I was the Designated Left Fielder myself for about 5 games this past
    weekend.  
    
    Enrollment in the Assabet Valley Little League (Maynard/Stow) is WAY up
    the past couple of years.  To this unscientific eye it sure looks like
    the interest in baseball is on the upswing.  The baseball camp that is
    taking place this week in Maynard has its highest enrollment ever.
    
    The only thing that beats having a game of catch with your son or
    daughter is spending the day fishing with them.
    
    					Steve

    
   >  The coolest commercial out right now is the Spanish language Nike 
   >  commercial about the shortstops in the Dominican Republic.
    
    Yes it is.  A great commercial.  I was going to mention this when I
    brought up the point about the Latin American talent market; that it
    was good to finally see a shoe manufacturer attempt to make use of the
    love of the game in other parts of the world, like Latin America, and
    by extension give it a little bit of promotion.  'Course it might not 
    sell a single pair of shoes, there's not a single "star" in it, but I 
    liked it...
    
    While I do think that baseball's dominating popularity with youth
    peaked over 20 years ago and that's it's not going to come back, this 
    is not necessarily a horrible thing.  Diversity in youth sports is not a 
    bad thing.  Basketball is a very worthwhile athletic pursuit (I question
    whether organized football offers any net benefit to society, even though 
    as a spectator I prefer it to basketball).  I think the entire issue has
    become trendy and overkilled in this time of baseball-bashing, mainly
    (and rightly) due to the people involved with it at the major-league
    level.  Hell, baseball is *thriving* like never before at the 
    minor-league level, and you don't see any of those guys on cereal boxes.  
    I know my kids and their friends play regularly, and enjoy it.  The game 
    may have fallen out of the mainstream favor (and this is half perception 
    from my vantage point), but it is certainly not dead as some would have
    you believe.    
    
    glenn
    

I'm with Tommy on this one.  I like baseball, but its pretty tame and yes,
boring, when compared to Football.  You just don't get the passion, the
primal passion, you get in football.  I've gone to hundreds of games
for both sports, but nothing in baseball meets, matches, or comes close to
the ritualistic tail gate party.  

And Steve M. - I respect your opinion, and the numbers, but my dad has been
active in Little League for almost 30 years now - he's retiring from doing
work on it due to health, and he'll show you things like rising enrollment
over the years, but he, and others that are on LL councils, will also show you
that when population is taken into account, percentages aren't very different,
and that the kids' heros aren't baseball players.  For the most part its
Mike, or Shaq, or Ewing, or Charles,...

Back to Tommy.  I visit my folks - and when I was growing up we played baseball
all day long, all summer.  I go back now, and I've never seen a game of baseball
being played by the kids who live their now.  I see them play hoops, I see
them play football, street hockey, but not baseball...

JD

    One question for the guys in the "I once loved and lived the game but
    now it's too dull" crowd.  The sandlot or playground game is exactly 
    the same game that you once played.  What then changed to make baseball 
    less a sport in your eyes?  I'm not talking about major-league baseball 
    and overpaid athletes and all that business here-- just the game itself.
    
    This is a separate issue from what MLB should or shouldn't do to better
    promote itself with kids, which I agree is a serious and legitimate
    issue.  I'm hearing that the game itself is now basically deficient. 
    This is a much more fatalistic viewpoint; that there's really
    nothing that can be done because we've changed such that the sport is
    no longer enjoyable.  If this is indeed the case, my response is to
    just let it die.  There really aren't fundamental changes that can be
    made to the game's basic elements to make it more "exciting"-- it's not
    an overly violent or physical (or as JD would put it, "primal") game.
    It just isn't, and you're not going to make it that way.  If you guys 
    are correct, then nothing lasts forever, I guess...
    
    glenn
    

    re .251
    
>>    Not every play, of course, but I enjoy watching a well-turned
>>    double-play, a steal attempt with a throw from home, a ball headed for
>>   the hole with the SS making a back-handed stop and the ensuing throw,
>>    a deep hit ball to center with the relay needed to catch the runner at
>>   home, the 2nd baseman fielding the ball and working the DP, a pick-off
>>    play that forces the runner into a run-down, a shoestring catch
>>    anywhere, a backhanded-running-at-full-tilt catch in the field, a
>>    well-played ball off the wall and the throw to second, a fielder faking
>>    the throw behind the runner and then getting him out at the next base,
>>    a close play at home, very high fly ball on a sunny and windy day, and
>>    watching a good outfielder getting a great jump on a flyball..

   
  Did anybody else envision John Belushi draped in an 'Old Glory' Toga?    

    
    > Hey, Kev, if baseball is your least favorite sport, why the heck do you
    > coach it?
    
    A scary thought for the sport indeed... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    Much as I'd love to pin the Braves 'L' on artificial turf, ...
    
    when yer up *3* runs in the ninth, you'd normally expect to win. 
    Stanton blows yet another one ....
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    Really graspin there MtM,
    
    Despite the fact that I derive *NO* pleasure from WATCHING (ML) 
    baseball has absolutely no bearing on why I coach baseball.  It's for
    the kids, as if you couldn't figure that out for yourself.
    Same with soccer - I coached but I've never seen nor played the game.
    Care to guess why?
    Many times I've stated that I like amateur sprots much, much more than
    pro sprots and I still feel that way.  The AAA players, while "pro's",
    still hustle their hearts out and that's what I like to watch athletic
    competition for.  ML baseball, IMHO, is dull.
    
    I went to the PawSox game last weekend and had a very enjoyable time.
    11 hits, they won 8-1.  
    
    I remain,
    suggesting you go back to moving notes around.....
    Kev
    

    Cats, chess, Mets.  I guess that explains everything.

    Let's take a kid in high school that offers the four major sports that
    are played up here in the Northeast anyway.  If he's real fat he can
    play football and do a decent enough job at it, if not better.  If he's 
    real tall he can play basketball and do a decent enough job at it, if
    not better.  Hockey and baseball do not allow for any such specimens
    unless the kid can play the game.
    
    I think one reason you don't see the kids playing the neighborhood
    games anymore is because there isn't as much open space as when we were
    kids.  Our old neighborhood field now has a house sitting on the
    entire infield.  Like I said in an earlier note, my friend built a
    field for his kids and kids from all over hover around there.  He put
    in a 200' fence, dugouts, scoreboard, etc.  There's never a shortage of
    players either.
    
    It's also a known fact that kids aren't as "outdoor active" as we were.
    In fact many of them are downright lazy.  My bother-in-law's a phys.
    ed. teacher at the junior high level, and he said you wouldn't believe
    the amount of kids that can't even do one single pull-up or as many as 
    10 pushups.  That's a freakin' pity!
    
    So, I therefore think that you won't see as many kids playing any of
    the sports we all played as kids.  It isn't just baseball.
    
    					Steve

    
    Steve,
    You're probably too young to know this (and lEe is so old he probably
    forgot this ;^)) but the "President's Council on Physical Fitness" was
    first established by JFK because the youth of 'merica in 1961-2 were
    soooo physically unfit, compared to the rest of the world that JFK
    wanted to do something.
    
    What I'm saying is that it's not new, what your Phys. Ed. friend says.
    
    fwiw....
    
    I remain,
    fissically fit as a fiddle!
    Kev
    

    You sure those are the 4 biggest in HS around here?  Soccer isn't
    bigger than baseball?

    
    SWIMMING??????
    
    Kev_for_Hawk
    

    
    > You sure those are the 4 biggest in HS around here?  Soccer isn't
    > bigger than baseball?
    
    We're ratholing majorly here, but there are more baseball programs in
    this area than football or hockey.  I don't know about soccer.  But in
    any case, high school baseball is not of huge interest in NE, just as
    it isn't anywhere in the country, except maybe parts of Florida and
    California.  It's not set up to be any kind of community-unifying 
    spectator sport at that level.  But baseball in general is still big as
    a spectator sport in NE, and in this regard NE may be something of a
    throwback.
    
    glenn
     

MtM,

Cats?? are you referring to the ::baseball discussion??

The Crazy Met

If you talk participation, did you know that last year was the first time
that baseball outstripped track and field in the number of participants at
the high school level?

But that's another dying sport anyway ;-(

And who needs a field to play baseball?  We painted bases on teh street and
played it there - just got out of the way of traffic.  Kids today are
wimps - but I guess if we did that now, some parents would get the police
around for painting the street, then some other group would complain about
safety, and then someone would complain about the ball going on their
yard....

JD

    
> If you talk participation, did you know that last year was the first time
> that baseball outstripped track and field in the number of participants at
> the high school level?
    
    I'm kind of surprised that it has even now.  Is that due to a major
    decline in T&F participation?  In my high school we had a hard time
    fielding a 15-man team in baseball for the full season, and between 
    boys and girls there were literally hundreds, like half the school, 
    involved in spring track, whether everyone always got to compete in 
    the events come meet day or not.  Track was/is a *huge* deal in 
    Hollis NH.  Major trendy in-thing to do... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    JD, didya have to walk uphill both ways in blinding snowstorms to get
    to your homemade baseball field?  Didya use cardboard and old
    mattresses for catcher's pads?  I'll betya used old toilet paper for
    balls and cardboard tubes for bats too.

    I'm with Tommy on this one {THUD!}.  Since I shared the same hometown
    for 14 years, I can vouch for want he says.  I was a baseball fanatic
    as a youngster.  Now it can't hold my attention.
    
>      Steve, I live in Clinton, home of the state Division II baseball
>     champs. I have no idea of what the actual numbers are for Little
>     League and Minor League baseball are but the town does have a good
>     baseball tradition and having won the state title can only bolster
>     that. But I just know that when we were kids, we played baseball 
    
    ...and to think what might have been if not for all of us smart ones
    that went to St. John's to play top tier sports AND get an education.
    Some of Clinton's best athletes went there.  The McEvilly brothers that
    led St. John's to the '76 Division 1 State Baseball title are proof.
    
>     first. If we couldn't get enough for baseball then we played football. 
>     If absolutely nobody was around we played basketball. I go by the old 
    
    Exactly.  I remember whenever I had the itch to shoot hoops, nobody
    ever wanted to.  I spent hours down on Vale St., by myself, perfecting
    my sharpshooting.  Ironically enough, Mike McEvilly was one of the few
    that would also show up.  The guy taught me more than he probably knows 
    just from playing against him.  FWIW, Mike also played hoops at SJ's.
    
    Mike

    We used a stick and a tennis ball, Mac...
    

>     whole buzz of the place as I was about the actual game itself. I think
>     that as a kid baseball is a pretty democratic sport. You can be just 
>     about any shape and in just about any shape and be fairly proficient. 
>     We had fat kids playing. We had girls playing. We had kids who couldn't 
>     outrun a parked car playing. You can't do that in basketball. If you 
    
    These words ring with truth.  Ever since I started coaching youngsters
    in hoops, I can honestly say it is the toughest sport to introduce to
    8-10 year olds.  I've also coached farm and little league and never had
    nearly the difficulty that basketball brings.  Too much coordination
    and being able to perform multiple tasks simultaneously is tough for
    most at that age.

>    Glen, in Star Trek Deep Space Nine, baseball only survives in the
>    holodecks.

    
    Spaldeens "Pinky" was better than a tennis ball in our neighborhood!
    (and they were cheaper)
    
    hth
    
    Kev
    

    Mike, it's called Speculative Fiction.  You take a trend and speculate
    (as Glen did) as to where it might lead.  Life can imitate art.

    That's cuz kids grow up throwing things, Mike!  You ought to know that!
    They don't grow up dribblin' (other than the stuff that comes outta
    their mouth).
    
    Kev, I was in 1st grade in '61.  Guess that means I'm an old buck
    compared to most of the folks in here.  My phys. ed. bro-in-law has
    been a phys ed teacher since 1968, so he knows from where he speaks.
    
    					Steve

>>    Kev, I was in 1st grade in '61.  Guess that means I'm an old buck
>>    compared to most of the folks in here.

	Sheesh Steve, if'n that qualifies one as an old buck the both
	of us best stay out of the Hunting note.


	billl
	class of '72

    Pinkies were too "juiced up"... at least what I think you're talking
    about.  They may have been before my time...
    

    
    >>			Like I said in an earlier note, my friend built a
    >>field for his kids and kids from all over hover around there.  He put
    >>in a 200' fence, dugouts, scoreboard, etc.  There's never a shortage of
    >>players either.
    
    If ya build it, they will come.  Same cain be said of a porno palace,
    though.    (8^)
    
    Re kids playing baseball.
    
    99% of the fields that we played 20-30 innings a day on as a kid, all
    summer long, are still there, and they ain't getting much use.  The
    kids of today are too damned lazy to go outside and work up a sweat
    when they cain stay in their air conditioned homes and play Nintendo or
    Sega baseball instead.  All we had fer video games back then was "Pong"
    and I hated that, too.  We used to start playing baseball about 9 am,
    play til noon, eat lunch, and resume the game til about 4 or 5 pm. 
    Kept score, but it was one continual game all day long, no inning
    limit, and if ya was short some people, ya played wif what ya had.  And
    a lot of the time, it was our neighborhood against some other
    neighborhood.
    
    Them was the days
    
    JaKe
    
    

    Even tho I agree with most of what's been said regarding pickup games
    when we was kids, just take a look at the theme of these notes...
    Think back about 20-30 yrs. ago, and yo' old man was saying the same
    "Dang kids of today got nice wood bats, fancy gloves, spikes,
    uniforms.. Why all we had was a shocvel handle, mushball and trash
    can covers. We were lucky we had a glove...."
    
    I dunno, I don't see many pick-up games going on anymore. Seems
    like parents are shutllin' kids all over the place for "organized"
    games. Hail, we was out the dang house by 8, home for a quick lunch,
    back out, hoime for a quick supper, back out playing ball.
    Didn't matter... baseball, mushball, home run derby, stealin' bases,
    whiffle ball, half ball, stick ball, sewer ball, up-against the wall...
    Course, this was before puberty..but we still played up-against
    the wall after puberty, jest a more advanced version.. 8^)
    
    MikeL
    

    
>>    I dunno, I don't see many pick-up games going on anymore. Seems
>>    like parents are shutllin' kids all over the place for "organized"
>>    games.
    
    We played most every day, all summer, in addition to playing in our
    League(little, pony, colt, etc) games.  
    
    There are a few kids in our neighborhood who DO play
    baseball/football/hockey in the alley behind our house, so maybe there
    is hope somewhere.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Since our baseball/stickball diamond was really the street in front of
    the house (read pretty narrow), and the block "gang" numbered around 8
    kids, it was really really tough to play "real" baseball so after
    picking sides, we'd play "Automatics" where Mrs. Borrow's driveway was
    a single, the lamppost was a double, the manhole cover was a triple and
    Donoghue's driveway was a home-run.  Ball had to land in the street
    otherwise it was a foul ball.  No pitching either.  Toss 'r up and
    WHACK!
    
    Pinkies were perfect 'cause they made us Homerun Wannabee's REAL
    homerun hitters.
    
    We also had the obligatory "ol' Battle axe" lady who'd wait till the
    ball landed on her lawn and then dash out of the house, grab the ball,
    and bolt back inside.
    
    We used to pay her back bigtime though.  She had a daschound (?)
    hot-dog dog who was so fat it's belly rubbed on the floor when it
    walked.  The lady also had wooden floors.  One of us (when OBA wasn't
    home) would go to the front door and another would go to the back door.
    Front door -> BAM, BAM.   Stupid dawg would bark and run to the front
    door.  Back Door - > BAM, BAM, BAM.  Dawg would turn around bark abnd
    run to the back door.  Stupid dog got wood burns on his belly as he'd
    run from dor to door.  YELP, YELP, bark, YELP......
    
    truely great stuff!!!!
    
    I remain,
    remembering what we used to do on Halloween to!
    Kev
    

    Hey, how come all of this reminiscing about baseball how it used to be
    and how it ought to be again is taking place in the Phonyturf League 
    note?  Shouldn't we be over in 7, where men are men and batters know 
    how to hit the ball?
    
    glenn
    

    
    > We also had the obligatory "ol' Battle axe" lady who'd wait till the
    > ball landed on her lawn and then dash out of the house, grab the ball,
    > and bolt back inside.
    
    Hey, we had one of these too (actually they were a pair, sisters no
    less)!  Didn't everyone?  These ladies were so anal that come Halloween 
    they'd drop lawnchairs at the end of the driveway and sit out there 
    dispersing candy so no one would come near the precious house.  One
    time a dog that had the misfortune of choosing their yard to relieve
    itself got a taste of its own medicine (I am *not* making this up
    in JaKe-like fashion!).  Needless to say, when a ball became unusable
    with the cover half torn off it "accidentally" would get launched in a
    prodigious blast off a certain someone's roof...  
    
    glenn
    

    
    >>Geez, now you're starting to sound like my wife (and my kid ain't old
    >>enough for Nintendo).
    
    >>Face it Jake, you're just an old fart.
    
    We ain't got a Nintendo er a Sega thang in my house, nor will we ever.  
    My kids love to play outside, all year round(cept when the temp dips
    way low).
    
    Robbie has quit asking to go to one kids house(about 7 miles away)
    cause he said all the kid EVER wants to play is a video game.  The kid
    never wants to go outside and play ANYTHING.  WE had the kid over and
    he said it was boring at our house because he couldn't play any video
    games.
    
    I ain't got anything against vidoe games, but like anything else,
    they're okay only when used in moderation, not to excess, like so many
    kids use them.
    
    Call me an old fart if ya want, but I think the "high-tech" age is
    producing some dorky mal-adjusted nobrain kids.
    
    (Wonder if anybody said that about me as a kid)
    
    JaKe
    

    ...and if we weren't playing ball on the local diamond all day, we were
    playing whiffle ball in the neighborhood street.

    
    >>   					(I am *not* making this up
    >>in JaKe-like fashion!).
    
    Hey glenn,  ya prepared to back this statement up????  Making
    accusations, eh????????
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Speakin_a_accusations,
    Lissen JaKe,
    I know Dick Radatz, and ya ain't no Dick Radatz (even if you play him
    on TV).
    
    8^),
    MikeL
    
    

    
    >>   					(I am *not* making this up
    >>in JaKe-like fashion!).
    >
    > Hey glenn,  ya prepared to back this statement up????  Making
    > accusations, eh????????
    
    'Splained off-line, JaKe.  No accusation, just referring to some your
    jokes involving certain things.  This was real!
    
    glenn
    
                         

    I'm with ya on the Nintendo bit, Jake.
    
    Re: wiffle ball
    
    I'm witness to the fact that kids still play this with a passion.  At
    least in our neighborhood.  I haven't been able to grow a blade of
    grass in two years, because of the April- October wiffle ball games
    that go on every day.  Don't bother me though...
    
    					Steve

    
    >>'Splained off-line, JaKe.  No accusation, just referring to some your
    >>jokes involving certain things.  This was real!
    
    
    No problemo
    
    JaKe
    

We played a lot.

And when it got too dark to play any more my brother and I had this
baseball game you played with cards.  I think it came in a box of
Pop Tarts.  

We'd pick teams, and play a few games that way.  We tried to play an
entire world series, but then our folks would say bedtime, and it'd be
like "how bout two more innings????"


'Saw


PS  I think there are more organized Little Leagues now, and not so
    much sandlot....

    In my day, (before electricity!), we used to buy a pinkie ball for a
    dime, and cut it in half, and play half-ball down at the local junior
    high.  Double if you hit the 2nd floor windows, triple for the 3rd
    floor, and a homer for the 4th floor.  On the roof was an automatic
    out, since you lost half a ball.  You ran everything else out.
    
    Never see kids playing that these days.
    
    We also didn't have any idea what soccer was, and that is the biggest
    sport, numbers-wise, in this area (Merrimack Valley).  There was no
    organized basketball or footbal leagues, and only one hockey league.
    There was no Nintendo, and our TV picked up three stations, not 65!
    
    It's a whole different world.
    
    NAZZ

>    There was no Nintendo, and our TV picked up three stations, not 65!
    
Ah yes, the pre-cable area.

We picked up three channels really well, one for each network.  3 (CBS),
8 (ABC) and 30 (NBC).   We'd get 5 (WNEW) out of New York most times, and
maybe on a good day, 40 out of Springfield.   Otherwise, that was it.

That might be one reason why so few kids play anything these days.  Too 
many channels to choose from, too many video games.......



'Saw

    I thought all the stupid things ballparks do for the fans had been
    exhausted with the Chicken, the sound effects, and the dot races, but I
    was wrong.  I see the Home of the Braves and the Tomahawk Chop has
    Weiner races where people dressed like Bratwurst, Keilbasa, and Italian
    Sausage (complete with native dress) run around the basepaths while the
    fans cheer.
    
    I wonder why noone is protesting the use of native costumes here.

            
    > I see the Home of the Braves and the Tomahawk Chop has
    > Weiner races where people dressed like Bratwurst, Keilbasa, and Italian
    > Sausage (complete with native dress) run around the basepaths while the
    > fans cheer. 
    
    Hmmmm, has anyone heard from Chris Knorr lately?
    
    And people don't understand when I say that I hope that the Braves head
    into that underachievement mode, previously reserved for the Mets,
    where the best talent in baseball gets wasted for about a half-decade
    or so...
    
    glenn
    

    
    >>           <<< Note 6.309 by PATE::MACNEAL "ruck `n' roll" >>>

    >>I thought all the stupid things ballparks do for the fans had been
    >>exhausted with the Chicken, the sound effects, and the dot races, but I
    >>was wrong.  I see the Home of the Braves and the Tomahawk Chop has
    >>Weiner races where people dressed like Bratwurst, Keilbasa, and Italian
    >>Sausage (complete with native dress) run around the basepaths while the
    >>fans cheer.
    
    >>I wonder why noone is protesting the use of native costumes here.
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Protest sausage costumes?????  Joyhnny "Wad" Holmes died a few years
    back, so fat chance anybody else will complain.
    
    JaKe
    
    

    I just hate to see team management condoning and encouraging that kind 
    of behavior at the ballpark.  Now, at Fenway Park, if you want to dress
    up as a "Native American Kielbasa" (whatever that is) and sit in the 
    stands, I suppose you're more than welcome to do so.  But it's not going 
    to get you on the field any sooner than the next guy...
    
    glenn
     

    Re:312 Glenn, the team management at Fenway won't let you have banners
    in the stands, why would they let you in dressed up as anything?
    
    
    REK

    > Re:312 Glenn, the team management at Fenway won't let you have banners
    > in the stands, why would they let you in dressed up as anything?
    
    Yep, come to think of it, they didn't let that Uncle Sam yahoo with the
    big hat and right-wing political agenda in a couple of years ago, or that 
    bored-again wacko *felon* Rockin' Rollen' with the multi-colored afro
    and "John 3:16" sign, either.  Three cheers for fascist stadium
    security!
    
    glenn
    

    Any offers I may have made to anyone regarding attending a_Atlanta game
    with me might have to be rescinded if recent trends continue.  Seems
    the Bravos just main-handled the giants (small 'g', given their woeful
    performance at The Stick) 3 straight and have crawled back within 4.5 
    games.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

The Giants only have their GM to Blam. He should have tried to shore up the
pitching rotation before the trading deadline instead of trying to play cutesy
with the waiver wire and only getting scrubs like sandeson and Deshais.

The giants would be in the catbird seat if they had a pitcher like Randy
Johnson or Dennis Martinez in the rotation.

Metz

    Bonds went 4-for-4 with a HR, right?
    

    -1, Yea but it ain't October yet!
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    

	Hey, MikeL, yunz robbed my line!


	billl

Another great game in Hotlanta lasted night.

The Giants looked like a different team, and it turned into one of the best 
pitching duels of the season.  2-2 in the ninth, largely thanks to some too-cool
defense, especially by San Fran.  Ended when a rookie call-up (I'm terrible
with names) hits a dinger in the ninth.  Figures, I fell asleep between the 
bottom of the eighth and the ninth.

Doesn't Robby Thompson look like the "after" picture of Jake and his diet?

=Bob=

    HAHA Bobby,
    And I thought Dusty Baker loks like a youngish James Earl Jones
    (especially wif gut).
    
    Hey, wasthat ex-RedSoxer Dick Pole in the Giant dugout as pitching
    coach?  Love his cryin' towel
    
    MikeL
    

Ya, Dick Pole is the pitchinig coach for the Giants.

Tonight's final game of the series has Burkett vs. Glavine (?).  Thanks to 
TBS and ESPN, we can watch some real baseball.

    
>>Doesn't Robby Thompson look like the "after" picture of Jake and his diet?

>>=Bob=
    
    What, AND a trip to hair club fer men????
    
    (8^)
    
    JaKe
    

    But ain't his CUT real short, .vs. having blown away wif the wind, ya
    know??
    
    BTW, the way the diets been going the lasted few months, could hide
    George Foreman BEHIND me if'n I was taller.
    
    JaKe
    

>    But ain't his CUT real short, .vs. having blown away wif the wind, ya
>    know??

The big thing for guys who are losing lots o' hair these days is either
to wear a baseball hat all the time (a la Ron Howard) or to shave it
all off.

You'd look good with that look Denny was telling me about -- shaved bald
on your haid, but with sideburns...

    
>    BTW, the way the diets been going the lasted few months, could hide
>    George Foreman BEHIND me if'n I was taller.
    
Now I know where all of mine is going though.

I've lost almost 20 pounds since mid-July.  The ONLY problem is that
before, when I was heavier, I looked okay naked because everything was
evenly spread around.   Now, some parts are looking better than others
and it's really bummin' me out.

I guess I have to wait a while longer to start "Chainsaw's Regular Guy's
Strip Club"....I can't dance like this....


'Saw    

>	Why you checking yourself out when you're naked for?

I wasn't actually checking myself out when I was naked, it was more
like something I noticed when I got out of the shower and was drying off.


'Saw

    > Why you checking yourself out when you're naked for?
    
    What's wrong with checkin' yourself out when you're naked?  /Don I
    think yer the product of the Puritanical Yankee that insisted that our
    bodies are somehow bad and evil.
    
    Get in touch with your body.  Love your body.  Get to know your body.
    Talk to your body.  Sing a song to your body.  Have lunch with your
    body.
    
    HTH.
    
    BTW, I'll be ringside for tonights Giants @ Braves game which, if it
    ain't a must-win for the Bravos, is awfully dawg-goned close.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

>    What's wrong with checkin' yourself out when you're naked?  /Don I
>    think yer the product of the Puritanical Yankee that insisted that our
>    bodies are somehow bad and evil.
    
>    Get in touch with your body.  Love your body.  Get to know your body.
>    Talk to your body.  Sing a song to your body.  Have lunch with your
>    body.
    

Well, it was something I just kind of noticed after showering and wasn't an
"official naked checkout" (as Jerry Seinfeld might say), but perhaps I should
set aside a time each week to check out my body naked.  To kind of get to know
it, you know...



Have fun at the game tonight Chris,
'Saw

    Patterson is a Phoenician too.

> Get in touch with your body.  Love your body.  Get to know your body.
>>    Talk to your body.  Sing a song to your body.  Have lunch with your
 >   body.
  

I don't think dean or Mrs Dean would approve of this...

Metz

    Kinda like a ACC person touching themselves and thinking of Dean
    Smith.....
    
    REK

In another stirring game, the Braves made it 2 of 3 againd the Giants lasted
night, running the two series total to 5 of 6.  Once again, great ptiching,
timely hitting and defense marked the evening.

Wohlners can really bring it, can't he?

Wouldn't Dennis Martinez looked good out there for the Giants in one of these
games?

=Bob=

    
    
     ...timely hitting..
    
    
       in particular, the one off of BarBars butt.
    
      Certainly worthy of the next MLB bloopers video.
    
    
      

    	Amazing.  Knorr got on the bandwagon and the wheels didn't fall
    off!
    
    				/Don

    Yes, I was tomahawkin' at the ole ball yard last night and the Braves
    won nevertheless.  Maybe this comeback *is* for real.
    
    Call me a BenedictArnold-style traitor, but I like Barry Bonds.  Yea, I
    know he's a hot dog and I know he don't like talkin' to 'The Press',
    but I like him anyways.  (On the latter point, mebee it makes me like 
    him even more.)
    
    But the fact remains that the man has Jordan-like impact (or at least
    as much as the game of baseball will allow) who backs up his sizable 
    "confidence" (arrogance?) with on-field performance.
    
    It's a given that the man is the best hitter in baseball, but last
    nights 2nd inning in which he sacrificed himself by pulling the no out
    grounder to second to git Matt Williams over to third was a solid
    reminder that the guy also KNOWS baseball.
    
    He's also got style.  The way he catches a fly.  The way he's
    always lookin' around up into the stands.  His choked up batting style
    that makes the bat look like a toothpick.  His dangling ear ring.  His
    unique blend of power and speed.  In sum, he's an amazing athlete who
    almost demands us (the paying customer) to admit he was worth the price
    of admission almost by himself.
    
    All of this would probably be enough, but last night we saw yet another
    dimension to this intriguing man.  He got gunned down in the mid-innings on
    a pitchout by about 20 yards and Lemke kindof tagged him in his private 
    parts.  The two (2) of them both exchanged some yuks on the field after
    they realized they were both okay.  It's a nice (and rare) moment when
    athletes in this day and age actually look like they're havin' a good
    time out there.
    
    Kudos, Barry!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Barry's got over several million reasons to look like he's having a good time
out there.

That said....

I like Bonds also...He's good and just wants to let his baseball do his
talking. I also wonder why fans can't appreciate what he brings to the game and
leave it between the lines.....

He was a wise investment for the Giants...

Oh, how I wish the sox tried to get him....


Metz

    > Barry's got over several million reasons to look like he's having a
    > good time
    
    Money don't buy happiness Metz, although as my rich aunt (RIP) used to
    say, I might as well be rich and miserable than poor and miserable.
    
    A poignant anecdote I heard recently was from Jon Koncak, the 
    mega-overpaid Atlanta Hawks brickmason who also can't play defense or
    rebound.  [Other than that he's a pretty good ballplayer. :^(]
    
    Anyhow the paper did a long piece on him 'bout how miserable his life
    is (he's booed unmercifully, is divorced from his wife, has no game, is
    undergoing therapy, etc.) and he said that, once you've gone off and
    bought all your toys the only thing the money is is numbers on a piece
    of paper.  
    
    In sum, it ain't enough.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    >> I also wonder why fans can't appreciate what he brings to the game
    >> and leave it between the lines.....
    
    
      Because when it's showtime, such as a league championship,
     he's nowhere to be seen. That why a lot of fans can't appreciate
    what he brings to the game.
    
    

Jon Konkack could fade into anonimity in a second by quitting the source of all
his misery if happiness was what really mattered to him. Why is he still
playing hoops then? Could it be the money involved? ,nahhh. I'm sure Jon would
be a happy carefree individual if he was playing in the CBA....

If I had his money I could be very happy playing golf almost everyday and
travelling around the world and donating time for charitable purposes....

Re: bonds...

 It couldn't be the fact that he was facing some of the best pitching in MLB in
his two postseason appearances...nah..Mark Lemke and fransisco Cabrera should
make what Bonds is making now because they came through in the postseason,
correct ?

Metz

    
    
      >> It couldn't be the fact that he was facing some of the best 
      >> pitching in MLB..
    
     No, I don't think it was. The rest of the team hit well enough
    to make a series out of it.
    
     What I remember is Bobby Cox consistently calling the intentional walk
    to (Bell, Van Slyke?) so's they could get to Bonds and end an inning.
    
     Two championship series and 2 no shows for Barry. 
    
    
     Steve
    
      

    
    >> Two championship series and 2 no shows for Barry. 
    
    That should read Three championship series, and three no shows fer Mr.
    October_NOT.
    
    Schnort Schit Schleps
    
    JaKe
    

	If there is a baseball God he will make sure that there is a one 
game playoff in the National League West before pennant races go the way of 
the horse and buggy (you don't really believe the player's union is adamantly 
against a playoff system with wildcards, but is just using this fauxstand as 
a bargaining chip).  The Giants and the Braves are the two best teams in 
baseball and a one game playoff with all the attendant drama would be a 
poignant reminder of what we'll never see again (i.e. meaningful September 
games).

				/Don

    Aw Slasher, kwitcherbitchin'!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    	Merely pointing out the obvious RaKe.
    
    				/Don

    
    >	Merely pointing out the obvious RaKe.
    
    Except that you had it backwards.  The players' union is *for* the
    three-division system with the single wildcard that might preserve some
    semblance of a pennant race on occasion, and against the multiple-teams-
    per-division travesty of fantastickball and hokey...
    
    glenn
    

    It happened too late for the morning papers in the East,but Mark
    Whitten of the St Louis Cardinals put on one of the most spectacular
    slugging displays in major league history last night.
    
    He had 4 homers(the 12 the player to do that) and 12 rbi's tying Jim
    Bottomly's 69 year old major league record. Cardinals won 15-2 after
    Whitten's 9th inning error led to a 14-13 loss in the opener. 

    The last HR came off Rob Dibble in the 9th, 440 foot shot. Whitten hit
    a HR in the 6th, 7th, 9th - other was in the 2nd (grand slam to boot).
    
    He got 1 RBI in game 1 tying the ML record for RBI's in a DH; Nat
    Colbert of SDP had 5 HR's and 13 RBI's in a DH.
    
    From SportsCenter:
    
    Whitten increased his HR total by 25%, his RBI total by 15%.
    
    Who was the last player to hit 4 HR's in a game? Watson?
    
    The Crazy Met
    

  
>>    Who was the last player to hit 4 HR's in a game? Watson?
    
     Jim DInsmore at the Yanks vs Soxs Northboro Extraveganza???

 mike    

    
    
    >> Who was the last player to hit 4 HR's in a game? Watson?
    
     The last I remember was Bob Horner around '84 or '85
    

>     Jim DInsmore at the Yanks vs Soxs Northboro Extraveganza???

Dinz, The Dinz, Dinsdale, The DinzMan....


I'd answer the phone sometimes in the morning, and I'd hear this voice
yell "FRANKIE!!!!!!!!!!!"

I remember a car pulling in to GiantsMania last year, and everyone
getting out and Dinz standing in the parking lot saying "I locked my keys
in the car"...

I remember the same car, in the parking lot at Giants Stadium, with the
trunk up, and his daughter's dolls in the back.  I've got pictures to
show what we (well *I*) did with those dolls.  It would've made a great
movie....

I remember needing a decoder ring just a bit less sophisticated than my
RCASO decoder ring to figure out what dInz was saying......


Last I heard Dinz was MIA on the Cape.   We've left the light on, and
there's hope in our hearts, and we're waiting for him to come home......



'Saw

    RE: .351
    	Glenn, the player's union will sell anything for the right price,
    including the integrity of the pennant race.
    
    				/Don

	Last night:

	Kent Mercker, Mark Wohlers, and Greg McMichael combine on a 10-inning
	1-hitter, and Ron Gant HR's in the 10th to give the Braves a 1-0 win.
	Luis Lopez's first major league hit off Wohlers in the 8th is the only
	Padre hit.  Mercker has now given up only 1 hit in his last 16 innings
	against San Diego (3 starts).  Note: Mercker and Wohlers had combined
	with Alejandro Pena for the only previous shared no-hitter in the N.L.

	Meanwhile, St.Louis knocks out Jim Deshaies in the second, and break
	open a close game with 6 in the sixth, as the Cards knock off the
	Giants, 9-4.  Lead down to one game, 2 in the loss column.  Giants lose
	for the 9th time in 15 games.

	With Maddux, Smoltz, and Avery pitching this weekend vs SD, we could
	see a first-place tie by Sunday night.

	Philly held off Chicago, 10-8, to stretch their lead over idle Montreal
	to 7 games.

    Under the new alignment the Giants would have a 19 game lead over LA.

    Hows Barry "Wah-Wah" doing out there whilst San Fran-choke-ers Gnats
    are busy blowing themselves into oblivion??????
    
    JaKe
    

    Barry has 1 RBI since 9/3/93; no homers.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Does this make the nl mvp race up for grabs with dykstra,
    mcgriff,gant,justice (these 3 will kill each other),????,(any votes for
    marquis grissom:-)
    
    and speaking of..
    
    the final race may be the nl east - truly ironic if dennis martinez
    pitches against atlanta in playoffs
    
    
    and sorry about this straight sports talk in this note 

    Nope, Barry's RBI was a solo shot, right?
    

    Yup looks like the Giants have pulled a '64 Phils job...
    
    Speakin of the Phils and Expos, don't they begin a weekend series
    in Montreal?  Expos will probably have to sweep, being 5 back.
    
    MikeL
    

    I believe Barry hit a solo shot on 9/2/93 (against the Braves), but
    he's only had 1 RBI since 9/3/93.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Moises Alou (18 HR, 85 RBI, good BA that I don't remember) suffered
    a compound fracture of his left leg rounding first base on astroturf
    last night trying to stop short.  It is a gruesome video.  There is
    a startling shot of the second base ump hiding his eyes and turning
    away as Moises goes down.  He obviously is out for the year.
    
    NAZZ

    Well if channel 19 or espn have it it's worth watching.
    
    I have always contended that baseball in september between contenders
    (ther's that word again) is best show of all.
    
    postseason is to much hype and series is really an exhibition (for me)
    
    of course some times teams fold like giants and then come back like 78
    sox, 51 dodgers (had to win on last day)
    
    did anyone note that biggest net foldo prior to (potentially) this year
    was 74 sox +8 -> -7

    expos have aaa player of year floyd who now will move in I assume

    Bonds should still be the MVP.  I know everybody's going to get caught
    up in this last-month Giants' collapse (that has much less to do with 
    Bonds than with other factors), but the fact is that the guy kept a
    team no one expected to win anything right up there against the world's 
    greatest collection of baseball talent, and much less than the ~100 
    games they will still win.  Doesn't it set off alarms with the voters 
    that the MVP argument now seems to boil down to Bonds versus McGriff 
    *or* Gant *or* Justice, before you even get to the subject of the 
    Braves' *strength*, the pitching staff?  The argument is closer to
    Bonds versus *all* those players, with some apologies to Matt Williams
    and Robbie Thompson for their solid but not spectacular contributions.
    
    Bonds' personal slide is much overrated, too.  I keep hearing how badly
    he's playing, and then I look in the paper and see that he's still
    somehow managing to maintain a .335 BA, is still leading the league in 
    HRs, is still leading the league in slugging percentage with something
    like a huge *150*-point lead over players like McGriff, is still
    leading the league in OBP by a wide margin, etc.  I look at the box
    scores and am seeing lines for Bonds like "4 0 2 0", where Bonds hits 
    a double and maybe steals a base, yet no runs come of it and the Giants
    lose, 8-1.  Whose fault is that?  This Giants team just flat stinks right 
    now.  No one player is going to change that...
    
    glenn
        

    If he's playing so great right now glenn how come Baker sat him down
    Wednesday?
    
    I happen to agree with you that Barry still deserves the MVP award, but
    right now he's *dog-tired*, physically and mentally.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    > If he's playing so great right now glenn how come Baker sat him down
    > Wednesday?
    > 
    > I happen to agree with you that Barry still deserves the MVP award, but
    > right now he's *dog-tired*, physically and mentally.
    
    We're not in disagreement here.  The guy needed a day off, and maybe
    needs a few more.  For some that will be justification enough to string
    him up...
    
    But as far as performance goes, even in those disastrous Braves-Giants 
    series, I did not think that Bonds played badly at all.  Considering the
    competition, I thought that he held up his end, putting his team up a
    couple of times only to have the leads blown later.  In the vulgar 
    popular culture, no doubt all this will amount to, in spite of the facts, 
    is "where was he when the team was down" (9-3 in the 8th with the mop-up
    man on and the pitching staff in shambles...)?  
    
    glenn
    

    I don't have Bonds' numbers for the Braves series, but he definitely
    did not play badly.  In one (1) of the games he hit a solo HR to spot
    the Giants to a 1-zip lead.  He also played well defensively,
    although the guy has no throwing arm to speak of.
    
    I've gotta believe Barry's succumbing to the mental fatigue more than
    the physical.  After all, it's not that uncommon for guys to play every
    game (or most of 'em) over the course of a season.  Ronnie Gant has
    missed barely a game and his bat speed looks just fine.
    
    All you've gotta do to realize Bonds' problem is to look into his
    uniquely expressive eyes.  The guy is carrying the weight of the world
    on his shoulders because of the Giants collapse, and the pressure has
    just kept building and building and building.  He's playing tight just
    like all the Giants, and you cannot play SPORTS of any kind well when
    you're tight.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    I doubt they'd bring Floyd up if they haven't already.  White will
    probably go back to playing out there...
    

	Glenn,  I'm at a loss to understand your logic regarding Mr October_NOT.

	On one hand you say that it is not JUST his fault that the team is 
	sliding faster than a freshly greased pig down an alpine slide.  Then
	you turn around and say that he was SOLELY responsible for the Giants
	being where they were before the nose deive.  You can't have it both 
	ways.  I actually think that neither is true.

	I think Barry could probably benefit greatly by a trip to Smoltz's 
	shrink.  He plays so well from April to September, that he seems to
	have just accepted the fact that his playing ability will go into
	a death spiral come "crunch time".  

	In spite of my frustration with his October results the last few years
	I do hope this guy can pull out of this defeatist attitude he has been
	getting this time of the year.  He's too good not to.


	billl

    >	On one hand you say that it is not JUST his fault that the team is 
    >	sliding faster than a freshly greased pig down an alpine slide.  Then
    >	you turn around and say that he was SOLELY responsible for the Giants
    >	being where they were before the nose deive.  You can't have it both 
    >	ways.  I actually think that neither is true.
    
    No, we are talking about an individual award, and I think that Bonds
    is far and away the biggest *single* reason that his team is where it
    has been this season (this much is obvious).  In baseball, no one does 
    everything by himself, or even close to it like you might see in other
    sports like basketball, but Bonds has done the *most*.  In the context 
    of an argument over the MVP award, yes, I think it's notable that Bonds'
    is the only name from the Giants that comes up, while I've heard talk
    about three Braves' players before the pitching staff is even mentioned.
    
    On the other hand, if you break down the Giants' collapse, Bonds is
    *not* the main reason it has happened.  If everyone else were performing 
    close to the level they were previously, and Bonds was hitting .150 over 
    that span and that was killing the Giants, I'd admit that much.  But that 
    is not what has happened.  I can produce the numbers later if anyone's
    really that interested, but the ERAs of guys like Swift and Burkett
    over the past month dramatically demonstrate the problem.  Bonds has
    tailed off some, but the Giants could have easily withstood that very
    minor slump if not for some tremendous collapses elsewhere.  As it stands, 
    Bonds could have hit .500 over the past three weeks and it'd only have 
    made a couple games difference.  The Giants have been getting *crushed*, 
    for the most part.
    
    Bonds might be feeling the pressure now, and a lot has been put on him
    as the supposed key figure in all of this, but again, I think it's
    overrated.  Last September he carried Pittsburgh home (while others
    around him held up their end) over Montreal with his best month *ever* 
    as a Pirate.  He didn't have a bad NLCS, either, when as opposed to the
    previous two years the pitching didn't hold up).  These are the facts, 
    not just what people want to believe.  The guy has had a tremendous season,
    all-around one of the greatest in baseball history, as a matter of fact.  
    To associate the word "choke" in any way with that kind of a performance 
    due to the fates of his slumping (and really overmatched at this point) 
    team is a huge injustice to the man.
    
    glenn
     

    Personally speaking I think the award should go to the man with the
    numbers backed up by intangibles, play in the field etc.  Bonds would
    by the man and in the criteria of which daily player would you pick
    first he again wins.
    
    But more and more I see the criteria of "who is the player most
    critical to the success of the team that won".  In this case I would
    point out the utterly dramatic impact of the hit dog.  I mentioned gant
    and justice only to point out that their seasons will lesson mcgriff's
    chances even give the "most critical" criteria because they may take
    points (atlanta) away from him.
    
    If mcgriff etco vs bb split a lot of nl west votes plus the slugger
    votes, eg mcgriff takes a lot of bond #1 points away then dykstra with
    his 100-100-100 stuff along with a possible gammons impramatur(sic?)
    could slip in.
    
    I was one of those who would have voted for Rice over Guidry in '78
    because of numbers (400+ tbs) so in reality, for me, Bonds would be my
    pick over mcgriff; I was interested in other opinions.
    
    And for trivia, who was the player prior to rice (last) to do > 400tbs.
    
    Note I did the math on thomas one day and don't see he or anyof the
    others making it this year

    The question of whether Bonds deserves the MVP is pure folly. 
    Consider:
    
    o 3rd in league in hitting
    o 1st in HR's
    o 3rd in RBI's
    o over 100 walks
    o On base percentage around .450
    o Slugging percentage of .667 (!!!!!)
    o Delta of Giant W/L's in pre/post Barry
    
    Bonds has done it all, but unfortunately our "what have you done for me
    lately" society can't accept that.
    
    Too bad.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    

    
     I was under the impression that MVP stats were looked
    at over the whole season.
    
     The season isn't over yet, we're not even in the playoffs yet.
    
        But...
    
      When the pressure was/is on, Barry once again does his disappearing act.
      
      
      How can a person even be considered for MVP when he plays as
    an MVP for 4 months, then, when things get tough, disappears
    when his team needs him the most.  I'd wager that BB is 
    batting about .230 for the month of September, after putting
    up MVP numbers (.340) when there was no pressure on him.
      
    
         
       Steve
    
    

    
    > And for trivia, who was the player prior to rice (last) to do > 400tbs.
    > 
    > Note I did the math on thomas one day and don't see he or anyof the
    > others making it this year
    
    I think it was Aaron.  Like Ted Williams, you won't see Frank Thomas 
    or Barry Bonds achieving 400 TBs because they walk too much, 
    intentionally and/or unintentionally.  It's a very tough barrier for
    any hitter, but you've got to be of the free-swinging power-hitting
    variety to reach it, which Rice was.  You almost have to have 200 hits
    to even start to think about it, and then another 40 2Bs and 40 HRs 
    still only gets you to 360 TBs.  Rice's secret?  He led the league in 
    triples, too...
    
    Thomas and Bonds' 120+ BBs don't get counted in anything like a TB
    calculation but they still produce a lot of runs, especially for Bonds 
    because he runs so well...
    
    glenn
    

    
 >  When the pressure was/is on, Barry once again does his disappearing act.
 
    In other words, when Barry Bonds is performing as well as anyone is
    humanly able to (like last September, and all of this season save for 
    the last three weeks), and his teams are in the process of winning 
    three straight division titles, that's meaningless because by 
    definition there's no pressure on, and when he's not performing at that
    extraordinary level, only then is there pressure on.  Barry's kind of a 
    human barometer.  You could probably predict the weather with him. 
    
    Last I heard (earlier this week), Bonds was hitting something like .270 
    over a two-week span since the last Braves' series, in which he 
    performed decently, including one 4-for-4 game with a homer (the Giants 
    lost, of course).  Hardly atrocious.  Hardly even noticeable for a 
    two-week period, unless you're Barry Bonds, of course.
    
    glenn
    

A win in april counts as much as a win in september.

The GM of the giants is to blam for not getting any pitching help. Even if the
braves vanished in a puff of smoke the giants would mirror the team the A's
played in the world series and soundly defeated because the Giants had no
pitching then and they have no pitching now....

Bonds for MVP hands down...

AL MVP would have to be The big Hurt...Frank Thomas...

NL Cy Yung....just cut it up into pieces and give a chunk to each atlanta
starter..

AL Cy Yung...Black Jack McDowell...although he has been slumping lately and
Randy Jonson could come on strong if he gets to 20 wins and some of the other
contenders falter down the stretch..


Metz

    	I like Bonds, but he's no Reggie.  Love him or hate him, when the
    spotlight was on, Jackson's play hogged all of the attention.
    
    				/Don

    Glenn,
    	The answer was Joltin Joe DiMag.  I think '37.
    
    Tough year, 78 to leave one of em out but on top of everything Rice did
    it in the absolute clutch during the last gasp redsox chase where any
    loss for last 8 or so was curtains and Rice hit about 5 game winners
    except for playoff
    
    	That 400tb ? was one of gammons favorites.  and yes, too many walks
    hurts.  however, walks and all check some of ruth's 20s totals, esp
    20,21.
    
    It seems everytime I read the boxscore babe had another one (.not.)

    
    >>votes, eg mcgriff takes a lot of bond #1 points away then dykstra with
    >>his 100-100-100 stuff along with a possible gammons impramatur(sic?)
    
    What's this 100-100-100 stuff fer Dykstra???
    
    Is it :
    
    $100 worth of booze  + 100 mph in flashy car  = 100 days on DL
    
    
    Inquiring mindless and all that shat
    
    JaKe
    

    I'm sorry it was supposed to be 100-200-100.  100 walks, 200 hits, 100
    runs scored of which the runs and hits are way above the 100,200.
    
    Now that Len has tempered his non bb life, so it's been said, he is
    putting out quite a season and could have won mvp minus a bonds.
    
    Of course when all is said and done, Len's remarkable hit/run totals
    will equal a typical 50s Ashburn season which never earned Richie
    anything close to an mvp, never mind hof honors.

     Avail. Batters BA    HR   SB     G     AB   R    H   TB  2B  RBI   BB SB  CS
    Ron Gant       0.277   35   22   141   541   99  150  285  24 107   62 22  7
    David Justice  0.264   36    3   141   531   79  140  267  11 106   65 3   5
    Fred McGriff   0.289   34    4   135   499   96  144  276  26  87   64 4   3
    Barry Bonds    0.336   40   26   142   485  112  163  322  31 102  110 26 10
    Len Dykstra    0.304   18   37   146   579  132  176  279  39  60  117 37  9

    Did anyone happen to see any of this weekend series Phillies-Expos?
    
    2 of the games won at the last at bat.
    
    Each game was like a playoff game but better.
    
    With 13 games remaining for both teams and Montreal 4 games behind,
    even if Philadelphia wins half of them, the Expos still need to win 10
    of 13 to tie.  I guess I can dream.
    
    BTW, I get file not found trying to get into SHARPO::BASEBALL.
    Has it moved??
    
    Mike B.

    BASEBALL was moved off of SHARPO quite a while ago.  It's on ALPHAX
    now.  The Related Conferences topic in here has info on conference
    moves and announcements.

    ALPHAX appears to be down, or did it find a new address?
    

It's up now.

however it's conference headers seems to state that all ain't well:


>                              SPORTS (shadow copy)
>Created:  8-FEB-1993 22:15         136 topics         Updated:25-AUG-1993 15:59
>          -< Last update 25-AUG-1993 16:03, Message number 00000000 >-


TTom

	Hey, now that baseball will have wildcard teams and stuff I figure 
the one game playoff (one of the most exciting things in the sport) will be 
filed away in Jurassic Park.  I was thinking that instead of tie-breaker 
rules like W-L% in the division or other such boring criteria they should pick 
one guy from each team, give him a Louisville Slugger and have the players
battle to the death.  The winner's team would then advance into the playoffs
and the loser's team gets to promote somebody from the minor leagues.  This 
method is easier and more exciting than the more conventional ones, and 
with baseball taking a beating in television markets, think of the money 
it could make by allowing the networks to bid on this "battle to the 
death" tie-breaker system.  What do you think?

				/Don                         

    Yeah Slash
    
    Make the setting Yankee Stadium and ya gits the Coliseum revisited.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    great p-name, /er.
    
    Your idea for the playoffs is great, but the wimpy soccer fans running
    baseball would never go for it.
    
    Funny how a couple weeks ago people were talking about all the great
    races in baseball, and now they are all gone.
    
    BOSS

    	An added benefit would be that bench clearing brawls could be seen
    as good training for the "tie-breaker" system and would be encouraged
    instead of banned, increasing the violence level in the game and making
    it more appealing to TV types.
    
    				/Don

    /er,
    
    baseball would just hire a Hokey player on a short term basis and have
    them do their "dirty work".
    
    JaKe
    

    Take heart BoSox fans:
    
    Saturday the Braves had a 2-zip lead on the NY Mets, who were down to
    their final out.  Nobody on base; Greg Maddux, "The Best Pitcher On
    The Planet", on the mound; the Number 8 hitter coming up for the lowly
    Mets.
    
    Inexplicably the Mets rallied to tie, and ended up winning in extra
    innings!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Not a bad idea Don but you forgot the TV angle, too much action in a brawl
for them to cut away to commercials change the game to Home Run Derby and
you got a winner.................

mike

    Anybody know how close andre gallaraga is to qualifying for nl bat
    title?
    
    Last I saw he had about 420 abs and I believe he needs 488 appearances
    but since I don't think he walks much he may still be short.
    
    he is still not in top 10; 
    
    help? - Is he going to sneak in on last day maybe?
    
    b

    needed 26 appearances with 7 games left. Should make it. He leads Gwynn
    by .21 points so even if he misses by a few at-bats they'll add them in
    as 0 for XXX and he will probably still win the title unless he goes
    into a real nosedive the last few games.
    
    Has a player on an expansion team ever won a Batting, HR, or RBI title
    in the teams first year?
    
    The Crazy Met
    
    

      As of this morning, Gallarages (sp?) needs 18 at bats.  He was 3 fur
    5 yesterday.  I thin he is at .379....
    
      Tim

    So 
    	1.  Andre is going to slip in a batting championship right under
    the nose of mr. peter-the-great gammon master of trivial information.
    
    	2.  I need more info but I am guessing Andre is about 163 for 430.
    		He would need to go .667 for next 35 abs to make .400.
    
    A couple of 5 for 5s might wake everyone up
    
    b

As of last Wednesday's games Andre G was

COL Rockies Batters   G  AB   R   H  TB  D  T HR RBI  BB  SO  SB CS  E
Andres Galarraga    112 436  69 167 273 35  4 21  94  24  68   2  4 11

167 for 436.

The Crazy Met

    167 / 436 is .383.  Also, 436 abs + 24 bbs = 460 tpa.  I think he needs
    488 but with 5 games remaining thats makeable plus a few misc aps like
    hbp,sac,sf...
    
    He needs 17 for 24 for an even 400.
    
    ( 184        460         .400)
    
    Great numbers for approx 2/3 of a season.  I wonder if he can bat
    leadoff to try to get a few extra pas.
    
    

that did not include games Thursday-Sunday.

The Crazy Met

    Do you happen to have a road vs. home comparison?  It'd be interesting
    to see if that thin air is helping him any.

/er your real slow, ancient history. Ijus' didn't change my p_name when
switching from ::yankees

The Crazy Met

    well two of top 5 in nl in doubles are rockies.  no question if andre
    made it to 400 it would be controversial playing short season, wierd
    park, expansion...  at least he won't have gone thru maris ordeal.
    
    and given met's new info I now concede .400 - he has the george brett
    .390 to chase as next best since teddy-406-'41
    
    but I still think with All the sports media people out there someone
    would have latched on to his coming back into qualifying plus great ba
    
    b
    
    he seems to need 19/24 or 20/26 to make it.
    

      The Rockies BA as a team is .306.  Not bad...There bullpen woke up in
    August as well.
    
      Tim

    	Who cares about some stiff's batting average who plays in a park 
    that makes Fenway look like pitcher's heaven.  There's a *real* race 
    going on in this league!
    
    				/Don

    
    	If your beloved Sox had that stiff they might be in a race
    	themselves.
    
    Claybone

> If your beloved Sox had that stiff they might be in a race
> themselves.

doubtful that he would make that much of a difference in that race.

The Crazy Met

    	I would take Vaughn over GaaGaa any day!
    
    				/Don

    
    	Then be satisfied with your mediocre team!
    
    Claybone

    How 'bout that NL West race?? Both teams with over 100 wins(well SF is
    almost there)!!
    
    Man, this race is shaping up jest like the '78 Bosox-Yanks.
    
    Will history repeat itself with the Giants rising from the dead
    to catch the Braves ala Red Sox in '78?? 
    
    Does anyone have both teams' schedules fer the last 6 games??
    
    Thanks,
    MikeL
    
    

    re: remaining games
    
    It all boys down to this:
    
    Braves:
    
    (3) Houston
    (3) Colorado
    
    
    Giants:
    
    (2) Colorado
    (4) @ Los Angeles
    
    If the teams are tied the 1-game playoff will be in S.F. on Monday.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Don't have the schedules for both teams Mikey, but I do know that 
San Fran is on the road for all of them, and Atlanta is home for all of them.

I also recall that both have three games with the Rockies.  

Tying in with the previous discussion, it is ironic that an expansion team will 
have a major determining factor in the outcome of the division, and, if things 
follow form, the champeenship.

=Bob=

    I believe sanfran finishes with rockies tonight,tomw then dodgers for 4
    
    atlanta has houston for 3 and the rockies for 3.
    
    home and away I don't have.
    
    didn't giants kill dodgers back in 91 - fer sure the valley boys will
    revenge (if there's anyone from that team still playing)
    
    
    
    

    Well in '78 Bobby,
    The Bosox swept the expansion Blue Jays to catch the Yanks on the
    last weekend with help from Rick Waits.
    
    And thanks Chris,
    MikeL
    

Christopher "Mad Dog" Russo, on WFAN was calling it one of the all-time
great pennant races.  I think there's only like 3 other races in the
history of baseball where both teams have won over 100 and end up within
2 games of each other.  This one certainly could be the 4th.....


'Saw

    the once and future powerhouse - Cleveland
    
    Frank, I think dodgers were in both - either 42 or 46 with st louis in
    playoff, possibly 51 was 100 win season.
    
    of course yankees won 105 in '54 and lost by 6 to (see above)
    
    of course sox lost 20 0f 22 to mike garcia etco

    
    Mac,
    
    	I was only comparing Vaughn to The Big Cat in the sense
    	that I feel Andres would be more valuable to the Sox than 
    	Vaughn.  I'm sure this will spur a rathole.....
    
    Claybone

    1978,
    
    Was that the year that Bucky Dent became a household word in Boston????
    
    Or was it some other year??
    
    Inquiring mindless
    
    JaKe
    

    
    
    1978    and Bucky       YUP!!!!!               ;^)
    
    
    Chappy

    Bucky Dent NEVER became a household word in Beantown
    
    Bucky F*^&in Dent did, tho.....
    
    MikeL
    

    
 >>  <<< Note 6.427 by CTHQ::LEARY "Corporate Telecom Technology Solutions" >>>

 >>   Bucky Dent NEVER became a household word in Beantown
    
 >>   Bucky F*^&in Dent did, tho.....
    
 >>   MikeL
    
    I tweren't going to say that, even I have limits, ya know.
    
    JaKe
    

In 1978 Yankees won 100, Boston won 99 - close but not 100

In 1954 Indians won 111, Yankees won 103

In 1980 Yankees won 103, Orioles won 100

The Crazy Met

    Both Atlanta and SF have 100+ wins... they're tied now...

I'd have to go back and listen to what Chris Russo said.

I believe the criteria were "both with 100 or more wins, and within two games"

He listed them, (I think there were three, perhaps), one of which was
1951.

He also said 1978 with the Yanks and Sox, but that Boston only had 99.



Still, pretty good stuff......

'Saw

    Hey Knorr, what's the current mood right about now with the average
    Fulton County Stadium faux fan?  You know, the regular 10,000 or so 
    that Ronnie Gant had to chew out a couple of weeks back for dutifully 
    checking their watches and fleeing the games at 10 PM, win lose or 
    draw?  Is it panic, or just a ringing indifference?
    
    glenn
    

Da Braves were pretty flat lasted night.  Pete Harnish seemed to be running 
out of gas at the end, and Atlanta still couldn't touch him.

An advantage I never thought of:  With the Braves playing home games, and the 
Giants playing their games in the Pacific/Mountain time zone, the Giants know 
each night where they stand, whereas the Braves just know that any single 
loss coould be the end.

I remain (TM)
into the ONLY pennant race left

=Bob=

re: .433

Actually the Giants have been playing mostly day games this year. They
have a day game today so Atlanta will know before their game tonight how
the Giants did.

The Crazy Met

    re: Waugamain
    
    Atlanta baseball fans are quite a bit different than what I suspect
    you're used to glenn, and I use the term "different" in the true
    Politically Correct context that corporate America loves.
    
    Braves games attract MANY families w/ kids, and it's not at all
    uncommon for thousands of 'em to leave a weeknight game with the
    score tied in the 7th.
    
    Is this bad?  Well I took my daughter (6 years old) to a game last
    week, the score was tied in the 7th, and I heard the Bravos win 
    on the radio in the car on the way home.  (Approximately a 45
    minute drive.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

>                       -< ACC Chris: A Faux Braves Fan  >-

You said a mouthful there, partner. Also, football and about everthang
else this side of college hoops.

One question: do you leave early when you go to the Heels basketball
games? I guess you have actually seen them play once.

TTom

    
    With the latest realignment plan, Phoenix is being touted as a lock for
    a NL West team, especially now that Colangelo is behind it.  I have my
    doubts over how successful it will be.
    
    brews

    I've seen the Heels play hoops many times in person, despite having 
    very limited geographic access to North Carolina.  Matter of fack, my 
    sister *supposedly* has tix to this years Blue-White game.
    
    However I must agree on one (1) point: When compared against my
    ultra-zealous Carolina hoops loyalty, I *aim* a faux-fan for all 
    other sports.  (So sue me.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Colangelo needs to sell the Rattlers and buy the Cardinals first.

>        -< Most would consider attacking my UNC hoops loyalty foolish. >-

You are already on record as saying the this inerrant loyalty does not
include actual contributions to the program, direct support for the
program or any other involvement this side of running your mouth. Hail,
it sounds like you don't even by some of the tickets for the games you've
attended.

Now, let's get something straight. I ain't saying that you have to do any
of the above. However, if'n you don't it's easy to place a limit on this
supposed expansive loyalty.

TTom

    Exactly what's your point TTom?  That I'm really a true Braves fan, or
    that I'm truly not a Carolina fan?  Leemee know - I'm sure we're all
    anxious to know.
    
    FWIW I'll be "live" at The Stadium tonight, hopefully chopping the
    Braves on to_a 'W'.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Even tho I still think the schedule favors da Braves and will
    win it, I gotsta admit that ah smell a heapful_a_crow with the way
    the Giants have rallied in the clutch. 
    Whar's da Slash with his damning P_Name agin the Giants?
    
    MikeL
    

     
 >   Hey Knorr, what's the current mood right about now with the average
 >   Fulton County Stadium faux fan?
    
 >   Is it panic, or just a ringing indifference?
           

    re: glenn
    
    Call us spoiled, but there's a quiet confidence in the Atlanta air that
    the Braves are gonna win not just the West, but the whole enchilada.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    'saw,
    	I'm sure it was cardinals - dodgers who had several down to the
    wire finishes in the 40s and two playoffs I think - in fact I believe
    dodgers were involved in all the 2 of 3 nl playoffs (59,61 - this btw
    had the greatest two games in history - imo)
    
    	Atlanta has a great team but I don't see them beating bluejays
    which is basically an all star team for which only pendleton from atl.
    could make - maybe olsen, maybe some tossups.  And this from an atlanta
    rooter.  I don't see atl. pitching stopping jays.  And with some much
    al hype for so many, joe carter goes quietly along as the best
    situation hitter in the game (as sox fans can attest - he killed us in
    cleveland).
    
    	And signing jc for sox was so obvious that it was in turn obvious
    that it would never happen
    
    b

Dodgers and Giants had playoffs in 51 and 62. 59???
What game are you referring to in 62?

I think the Dodgers and Cardinals had a playoff in 46

The Crazy Met

    met,
    	I meant 62 not 61 - I must have had an attack of the vesceys
    
    	The first game was one by sf; 2nd was won by la when maury wills
    score on sac fly to willie mays on pitch thrown by gaylord perry
    
    	3rd was another great game (like #2) with sf coming back with rally
    to win.  stars on both sides: willie,mccovey,cepada; wills,the davis
    boys;koufax,drysdale.
    
    59 was braves-dodgers playoff - la was playing on colosseum.
    
    strangely I think 62 playoff was on a weekend; I can recall seeing most
    of final two games, both extremely exciting with comebacks etc.

Well, even though the outcome was not what I had hoped, you have to admit
that this Western Division race was a helluva race.  Two teams win
more than 100 games, and one finishes just one game back.

Whether or not the Giants choked yesterday (and the score would indicate
they did) I have to be happy that it was quite a race down to the wire.
They provide more excitement in September than the Red Sox did.....


'Saw

'Saw,

Giants did not choke yesterday. Asking the Giants to win 4 games in LA was
a lot. Dodgers had payback on their mind; Lasorda after the game said he hopes
Giants fans now feel what Dodgers fans felt in 1951, 1962, 1991.

Giants showed a tremendous amiunt of gritiness and pride in coming back from
4 games down when most folks, including myself, left them for dead. If you 
want to think of the Giants choking that would be in losing 5 of 6 to Atlanta 
in late August/early September, including being swept in SF.

The Crazy Met

>Giants did not choke yesterday. Asking the Giants to win 4 games in LA was
>a lot. Dodgers had payback on their mind; Lasorda after the game said he hopes
>Giants fans now feel what Dodgers fans felt in 1951, 1962, 1991.

Okay, like I said, I didn't see the game, and I didn't hear the score
until this morning.

I agree, it was an exciting race.  If SF had had the Rockies instead of
Atlanta, it might have been different.

>Giants showed a tremendous amiunt of gritiness and pride in coming back from
>4 games down when most folks, including myself, left them for dead. If you 
>want to think of the Giants choking that would be in losing 5 of 6 to Atlanta 
>in late August/early September, including being swept in SF.

Agreed.


'Saw

      SF did play the Rockies the series before the Dodgers.  SF lost one
    of the games.
    
      HtH
    
      Tim

It's too bad it unravled on the Ginats yesterday, a playoof between the two teams
would have decided it once and for all. Boy Tommy Lasorda must be smiling today.

I think the Braves had an edge playing their games 1st, putting just more
for the Giants to hold Serve.

Well Barry will have plenty of time to count his money now. HE did have a great
season though.

MM  

Braves had 2 things in their favor: 1. playing the Rockies; 2. SF playing in LA

The Crazy Met

    Savor this season's West division race. It's the last time we'll have
    something like this with the new diluted NHL-Lije system coming in next
    year.
    
    Barry Bonds was incredible Friday night and should be the MVP.

I'd rather see the Giants and Braves go head to head in a 7 game series than
watch them play the rockies and Dodgers to determine who moves on.

Next year you might get a chance to see that head to head series...

Metz

    Wasn't 162 games good enough to determine who was better?

    	Absolutely Metz!  Why should the best two teams be subject to the
    stress of a race?  It's not only not fair, it's not 90's!  And anyways
    you still could have races between lesser teams.  There's nothing more
    exciting that seeing a couple of 82-85 win teams battling it out down
    to the wire!
    
    				/Don

> Next year you might get a chance to see that head to head series...
    
    You might, but it'll only be because the teams will now be in separate
    divisions, in which case the matchup offers no more than the current 
    Braves-Phillies series already does in the first place.  If you 
    like the idea of a 7-game series between divisional rivals to settle 
    such a grudge built up over the season, the barons have decided that 
    they don't.  Even where a divisional matchup makes sense because it 
    falls out of the natural 1-against-4, 2-against-3 scheduling, they 
    won't allow it in the first round and they'll illogically contrive 
    the matchups to try and prevent it (a poll of "fans" once again 
    supposedly shows that they don't want to see teams that have battled 
    against each other in the regular season paired off again in the 
    playoffs-- too boring).  Two teams like Atlanta and San Francisco that 
    would have been engaged in a great and meaningful divisional race next 
    year will instead be packed up and sent off for, say, Montreal and 
    Philadelphia, respectively.  In other words, the great divisional 
    battles practically disappear.  This song don't play either...
    
    glenn
          

It plays Homey....

 I'd rather see Atlanta and San Fran vs. each other than vs. the rockies and
Dodgers to decide which is the better team....

 These two clubs are the two best in baseball this season and depriving the
fans of the mano - e - mano matchup is a bummer. 

 Are you going to tell me the fans were better served watching the Dodgers
wallop the giants on the big screen in Atlanta instead of seeing these two
teams go head to head for the right to play the AL winner in the series? 

 Yeah, that post game celebration was just crackling with excitement after a 4+
hour delay after the final game against the weakest of the weak opponents.

 You can try to argue the purist standpoint and  you can argue about a
meaningless regular season all you want but I'd rather see these two teams face
off instead of watching one of them back in...
 
 I still think the regular season will mean something in baseball next year. If
and when the owners dilute the regular season to the point of hockey or have 1
round playoff matches that are as mismatched as the NBA then I might rethink my
position...untill then...On with the new expanded playoffs....

 Metz

    If next year's system was used this year,we would be looking at
    Atlanta-St Louis and SF-Philly. The main "excitement" would have been
    wether Montreal could catch Philly for the wildcard and an
    "enthralling" Chicago-St Louis battle for first.
    
    Baseball had 25 years 1969-93 of doing it right. This new system stinks
    but fans have short memories and if their team makes it thru to the
    playoffs they will be called successful.

    I disagree,
    	This last pennant race was great and they way it ended up had more
    drama and excitement than the coming divisional playoffs will ever
    have.
    
    	It would have been nice if it had gone to a playoff and the playoff
    should have been 2/3 and div playoff pushed back.
    
    	I count myself lucky to have had one last, great pennant race to
    savor and I congratulate the giants and bb for the great effort they
    put up to take it to the last game.
    
    	And the braves will be lucky to beat the phillies, I see Phil in 5
    or 6 as braves pitching looks tired.  Then either nl team is cannon
    fodder for the jays.
    
    	Unless mulholland of phils pulls a koufax

    
    Metz, you didn't address the point that if what you really want are
    head-to-head postseason matchups between divisional rivals (like Giants 
    vs. Braves), the playoff system that has been put in place was
    intentionally designed to minimize the chances of that happening.  If
    you honestly feel deprived that one of the Giants and the Braves didn't 
    get to personally send the other home, then you in all likelihood will
    continue to feel so deprived in the future.  Not only is it unlikely 
    that the matchup would come about (and if it did it would no longer be 
    for divisional stakes), but on top of that the six extremely critical
    head-to-head games that *were* played in late August and early September
    (okay, so in this race between these two specific teams those games
    came earlier than on average) would also have been rendered
    meaningless.  Contrary to popular belief, the two teams *did* go at it 
    mano-a-mano for big stakes, most of the games were actually on
    national TV (as opposed to these new playoffs) and those who missed 
    them were the losers.  The Braves cleaned up, which was a big part of 
    the reason they were able to eventually to win the race.  
    
    If that's not good enough, if those kind of series absolutely must be 
    contrived to sit at the end of the 162-game season because the casual 
    fan (MLB's definition: an AL fan in an AL market who is only interested 
    in the AL postseason come October; likewise for the NL fan) needs to be 
    hit over the head with a figurative two-by-four to appreciate the drama, 
    then as I said we're still not going to get what you're asking for.  
    What we'll get is generic postseason action with more teams of less 
    average quality unemotionally and somewhat arbitrarily matched up by 
    record (unless it happens that one of those undesirable divisional 
    rivalries comes about!), just like with the NFL.  Does anyone really 
    care what the matchups are in the NFL?  In general, does the average 
    fan even remember who won what division and who played whom in the 
    early playoff rounds?  Or is it just a good sell for the moment?
    
    glenn
      

>  Metz, you didn't address the point that if what you really want are
>    head-to-head postseason matchups between divisional rivals (like Giants 
>    vs. Braves)

I don't care about divisional rivalries...What I want to see is the best teams
in baseball going head to head to decide the victor. The new playoff format, 
while making these winners knock off an inferior opponent in 1st round will
give me a greater chance at seeing the two best teams in a head to head series
than the current setup where the two top teams often come from the same
division and have the matter decided by playing the lowlifes of the division
instead of each other...

Actually I'm probably asking for a large step backward instead of a progression
forward....

Screw divisions, screw leagues...lump them all together..1 to 28...play a
regular season and then have the top 4 teams 1v4 2v3 play a best of 7 and the
winners play another best of 7 to determine the champ...Isn't this the way it
used to work (although it was still divided Al and NL).

Since I know my suggestion will never happen (too much travel and the lack of
divisional "rivalries") I like the format that will go into effect next year.
I DO dislike the regional TV coverage. If they've going to give us more
playoffs at least let me see them on TV...

Metz

    Metz, but unlike football where the favored team - especially in the
    early rounds of the playoffs - generally wins, a 3 of 5 series in
    baseball is a real crapshoot. One hot pitcher and one hot batter and
    the underdog wins. It will take time to tell but it wouldn't surprise
    me if the underdog won 45% of the first round series. So you still have
    a decent chance of nbot seeing #1 vs #2.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

>Screw divisions, screw leagues...lump them all together..1 to 28...play a
>regular season and then have the top 4 teams 1v4 2v3 play a best of 7 and the
>winners play another best of 7 to determine the champ...Isn't this the way it
>used to work (although it was still divided Al and NL).


I don't believe so.

From what I understand, each league was "lumped" together.  I don't know
if they played each other an equal number of times or what, but there
was one pennant winner.   The pennant winner from each league played
for the Series.



Peronsally, I believe this *sh*tty* playoff idea is an outgrowth of the
increasingly technological media.   In the old days, you had radio (before
that telegraph tickers), and folks were used to getting their news in the
paper or via newsreels in the movies.   

Today, folks are an "I want it NOW" generation, and they need the visceral
excitement.   For most folks today watching all these teams "battle it out"
is probably exciting.  For me it isn't.   I think it dilutes the game.

The situation where Atlanta had to wait four hours is BASEBALL.  In 1967
wasn't Detroit hanging on every pitch in the Boston game?  (Or was it
Minnesota, and Boston was playing Detroit -- I forget).


I guess I am a purist, and no matter how many excuses the baseball
folks make, I'm not enjoying this new format.  Hell, I didn't even like
the LCS going to best of 7......


'Saw

    
    	Anybody see Mat Williams talkin' to the folks in San Francisco
    	at their *welcome home, we still love you even if you choked*
    	party?  Reminded me of those WWF rasslers woofin' before their
    	next match.
    
    Claybone

    
    And yabbut, correct me if'n I'm wrong on thisted one but aren't *ALL*
    of the WS games being played at night again thisted year?  No day
    games?
    
    Stupid, really stupid, especially if MLB wants to get a new generation
    interested in their product........
    
    I remain,
    not fond of late night tee vee anyway
    Kev
    

    CBS will start the games a little earlier this year in the hope that
    they will finish in time to not delay the start of the David Letterman
    show.
    
    

    >	Anybody see Mat Williams talkin' to the folks in San Francisco
    >	at their *welcome home, we still love you even if you choked*
    >	party?  Reminded me of those WWF rasslers woofin' before their
    >	next match.
    
    I didn't see that, but I did get a good chuckle out of Tommy LaSordid
    puffing up his chest and acting as if his beloved Dodger Blues had 
    actually accomplished something to be proud of in finally beating the 
    depleted Giants and their rookie pitcher on the final day of a four-game 
    series.  Sorry Tommy, but this wasn't at all like 1991 when the Giants 
    took a legit two of three to knock your boys out, or any of those
    previous great Dodger-Giant finales.  From the Braves' standpoint, the 
    Rockies were the real heroes in beating the Giants one of two last week 
    and then rolling over on the weekend.  In the first three very winnable 
    games against the Giants, the Dodgers played like crap, especially on 
    defense.  It appears that the once-high standards for "success" of the 
    great Dodger organization have slipped as they've instead adopted a Red 
    Sox-like mentality...
    
    glenn
       

    
    I heard some scuttlebut that LaSorda is mouthing off that he's gonna
    get some recognition from the city of Atlanta (keys of the city?)
    
    What rubbish.
    
    MikeL
    

Folks you are all conveniently forgetting the comments that Will Clark 
made in 1991 when the Giants finished about 30 games back but "made"
their season by knocking out the Dodgers.

something like: "sure I feel sorry for the Dodgers, hahahahahaha"

and stuff before that series on how knocking the Dodgers out would make
the Giants season.

Glenn,

don't matter if 'ya win 1 or 2 if it knocks the other team out.

The Crazy Met

    
    Hey, I've never regarded Will "The Shrill" Clark as an exceedingly
    classy guy.  He's got one of the biggest mouths in the game...
    
> don't matter if 'ya win 1 or 2 if it knocks the other team out.
    
    Only if you buy into the specious logic that what you're doing is more 
    important that what the other team (Atlanta) is doing.  The Braves won 
    the division in their own right and are to be commended for it; the 
    Dodgers barely showed up (even the Mets won more than one of four on
    the season).  And even if you're happy with that minimal accomplishment,
    you can still comport yourself with some dignity.  Which of course time
    and time again Tommy Lasorda has demonstrated he has little of.  Think
    of all those little kids out there that are going to grow up disturbed
    and disillusioned because Tommy threw that profanity-laced tantrum on 
    Saturday when his pinch-hitter popped up with the bases loaded and the 
    game on the line!
    
    glenn
      

	Tommy Slimfast sticking his jowly DodgerBlue face in the screen and 
telling the Giant fans nyaa nyaa?  Matt Williams saying he'll send Orel's 
pitches right back up the middle, intimating he wants to knock his block off?
I love it!  In these days when school sport's programs are heralded as 
triumphs because of the "nobody wins" format, strongly suggesting that 
competition is bad, it's great to see hate, real and genuine.  It's such a 
pure and honest emotion and quite frankly just what baseball could use to 
clean up it's soccer image.  Kudos!

				/Don

    
    	Yabbut I think it could soon even rival "The American Gladiators"!!
    
    
    Think of the possibilities
    
    
    Imagine
    
    I remain,
    desirous to see (the real) MrT in a bazeball uniform!
    Kev
    

Since, this was the last of the true Divisonal rivalries, perhaps the league
could have used more hindsight in creating the schedule. It pretty clear in
pre season who the top 1-3 teams will be in hte coming season, so why not
schedule those teams and games in the last week of the season. Would it help
fan interest or the teams chances of proving who's best. Say the Giants 
faced the Braves in hte last week, then the true champ could claim his stake.
But hey the season is 162 games, and very blue moon we get the top 2 teams
in hte same division , we saw it 78 and now 93. The new system I think will
be more exiting .

We had a mini playoff back in 81 during the strike and nobody complained
except the Reds who had the best overall record but did not finsih in either
half.


mm   

    	Heck I think baseball should be like hokey and let everybody in the
    playoffs.  The World Series could be played over the Thanksgiving
    weekend and the Red Sox could've called this year a success and raised
    ticket prices.
    
    				/Don

    
    re. -1>  the Red Sox could've called this year a success and raised
        ticket prices.
    
     They did. 2 bucks across the board.  Can you believe that.  For a
    second tier team that should finish last next year.
    
    Jerry

    
    Jerry does that mean the (cheap) bleacher seats are gonna be $8.00?
    
    I remain,
    unsure if I like a ~35% increase!
    Kev
    

    
    >>Hey, I've never regarded Will "The Shrill" Clark as an exceedingly
    >>classy guy.  He's got one of the biggest mouths in the game...
    
    How fitting that he and Bonds are on the same team, now SF has TWO of
    the biggest mouths in baseball.
    
    JaKe
    

     
    > Jerry does that mean the (cheap) bleacher seats are gonna be $8.00?
    
    Yep, but that's up from $7, so ya just saved a buck you didn't know
    you'd lost, Kev!
    
    The funny thing about this is that the Sox made the ticket price
    announcement at the absolute low point in the season, as they were 
    stinking out Fenway Park by losing their last 23 of 30 at home in front
    of some relatively sparse, disenchanted crowds (cheery packed houses by 
    Yankee Stadium pennant-race standards) while dropping below .500.  At 
    least you can't accuse them of blatant opportunism, although the word 
    stupidity comes to mind.  While you can rest assured that paid attendance 
    in the inherited-by-last-will-of-the-deceased-only box and good grandstand 
    season-ticket seats will remain unaffected, I expect a significant and 
    noticeable dropoff in the rightfield grandstand and bleacher seats.  It
    takes a while, but with each successive disappointing season the
    perception is of decline, even where there might be improvement in
    the W-L column.  A correct perception, in this case....
    
    glenn
     

    Braves in 5.
    
    JaKe
    

In the new AL east the Sox could vey well be in last place from day 1 and never
climb out next season...

What have the attendance numbers been for the last 3 seasons?

Metz

      Didn't the Braves win more games against the Giants than the Giants
    did against the Braves during the regular season Braves vs Giants
    series?   If so,  then the Braves are better,  not to mention the
    better record.
    
      Using the logic of the supposed better teams going into the season
    should be scheduled to play each other at the end of the season is
    silly.  Weren't the Mets supposed to be a good team and look what
    happened with them.
    
      The Braves won it!  Next year,  the 2 best team in each division go
    to playoffs, right?  So all this crappola over why let the expansion
    teams decide will be null.
    
      THANKFULLY BASEBALL IS ALMOST OVER!!!!!
    
       I will watch some of the series,  but other than that......
    
    
      Tim

    re. 478 regarding my short memory
    
    In 1969 the major leagues expanded from 20 to 24 teams which made for 8
    teams added since 1960. The schedule had been 154 games until 1960 with
    each team playing each other 22 times for a total of 154.
    
    With 10 teams per league,baseball went to 162 games 18 x 9. When they
    went to 12 teams,divisional paly was the right way to go,preserving
    the 162 game season (18 x 5 + 12 x 6). There was no great break with
    tradition because the divisions were close in size to the league of
    less than ten years before.
    
    The current setup of four seven team divisions would have worked fine
    until baseball exapnded to 32 teams when 4 4-team divisions per league
    may have been acceptable,at least preserving winners only in the
    playoffs.
    
    What you and the greedy owners/players don;t understand is the tradition 
    that the regular season has always carried in baseball making it unique
    among sports. That,alas,will be gone next year as the regular season
    becomes as forgettable as the NHL,NBA and NFL. At least the NFL regular
    season winners get byes in to the second round.

    The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette is reporting that Jay Bell won the Gold
    Glove at shortstop this year, making it the first time a shortstop
    other than Ozzie SMith has won the GG in 13 years.
    
    JaKe
    
    
    

    Daryl Strawberry is now being investigated by the IRS for not reporting
    his income from baseball card royalties.
    
    It's interesting to note that every MLB players earns $100K more than
    his salary just in baseball card royalties.  Frank Thomas alone earned
    $20K per weekend during the offseason for attending baseball card
    shows.  This stuff is big business!
    
    {source: Peter Green, Baseball Weekly}

    Score from last nite??
    
    

    >                       -< Philly won 4-3 in 10 >-
    
    An exciting and riveting game, too, I might add.
    
    Maybe the Sawmain could give us an impression of what Beavis & Butthead
    think of Mitch Williams (I know what I think of him, but maybe they 
    think he's cool).  Granted a huge error hurt him, but I continue to be 
    dumbfounded as to why ML teams continue to believe that a guy as 
    generally wild and ineffective as the original Wild Thing (56 H and 
    44 BB in 62 IP) is great closer material just because he throws hard
    and might someday kill someone.  You gotta love those Philly fans,
    though.  You could hear murmurs of discontent after the very first
    pitch Mitch threw.  A few weeks ago I saw where a couple of kids
    unfurled a sign at the Vet that read something like "Mitch Blows...
    Get a Real Closer".   Tough, very tough...
    
    glenn
    

 you got love Philly crowds. They're the only ones who go to wrestling
 matches and boo the Good Guys!!!!

 mike

    Philly crowds are rough.  It was reported this morning that numerous
    Braves fans were roughed up, spit on, had beers dumped on 'em, etc.
    Supposedly kids had tomahawks ripped outa their hands and torn up on 
    the spot.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    > Supposedly kids had tomahawks ripped outa their hands and torn up on 
    > the spot.
    
    I throw my heartfelt endorsement behind this last activity...
    
    glenn
    

    
    
       Unbelievable. I never saw such behavior by a baseball crowd. I hope
    Bill White gets involved. :-)
    
    
    Chappy

    What did Philly do? import some New York Yankee fans?
    
    Schilling and Brady Anderson for Boddicker.....
    
    REK
    
    Smooth move Lou............

    Yo Mac,
    I didn't forget.. I was attempting humor, that's H-U-M-O-R..
    
    Go have a homebrew willya!!
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    

	Even though I picked Atlanta, I truly enjoyed seeing John Kruk (the 
abslolute antithesis of the health conscious, workout, if you don't look 
good you can't be good crowd) get the hustle double then chug around to 
score the winning run.  I'm having a pizza and a six pack tonight to honor 
Mr. Kruk!  Kudos!

				/Don

    
    
     CHOP chop chop chop, CHOP chop chop chop, CHOP chop
    
       ayyyyaahhh, yahyahyahh yahha, ..etc, etc,
    
      
    
     What in the heck do they use in the outfield, in the foul territory
    in the Vet?  Last night, Gant(?) hits a shot down the left field line.
    
      Caviglia runs, and runs.. and runs and then dives head first 
    on the catch attempt...
    
      As he slides across the dirt and foul line, there's no dirt flying. 
    There's no chalk flying. And when he stands up, not a single spec of 
    dirt on his uniform.
    
      Is that simply Philly-turf painted brown out there, or is that
    pieces of plywood with manly nails sticking out of it?
      
    
    
        Steve
    

    	RE: 6.505
    
    	I agree about Kruk, although I thought he ran from home to
    	second pretty well for a "big" guy.
    
    	Every time I look at Kruk I just chuckle. He and Darren Daulton
    	were interviewed before the All-Star game. They're both
    	hilarious to listen to.
    
    	Scott

    My son was making fun of how fat the Phillies were last night.  I told
    him at least they can lose the weight if they want, Otis Nixon and Jeff
    Blauser can't do a thing about the looks they were born with!  Man, those 
    two peg the needle on the Ugly Meter.
    
    					Steve

> Even though I picked Atlanta, I truly enjoyed seeing John Kruk (the 
> abslolute antithesis of the health conscious, workout, if you don't look 
> good you can't be good crowd) get the hustle double then chug around to 
> score the winning run.  I'm having a pizza and a six pack tonight to honor 
> Mr. Kruk!  Kudos!
    
    Hypocrisy!  All a you guys that were dumping on baseball players as
    non-athletes should be repulsed by the likes of such great performers
    as the Krukker and Pete Incaligula!
    
    glenn
    

    
    	Here we go again.  Why don't we just vote on what *sport*
    	is the hardest.  Then, we'll make that THE ONLY SPORT LEGAL
    	TO PARTICIPATE IN IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE!
    
    	My vote goes for duck hunting.  Try hitting a teal screaming
    	through your decoys at 30 yards.  Hmmph!
    
    Claybone

    Only Pete Incaviglia ( ah like that Incaligula there glenn, best TM
    dat) can make Mike Greenwell look like a Gold Glover. He sure does make
    it interesting.
    
    MikeL
    

    
> Hypocrisy schmypocrisy, I *still* feel that guys like Kruk are an em-
> barassment. But that's baseball, you don't have to be an athlete to be
> successful you just have to have a couple of well developed skills.
    
    Every time a similar athlete in another sport like William Perry or
    Oliver Miller succeeds, you hear some nonsense about it being because 
    "he's surprisingly quick on his feet".  Yeah sure, and Cecil Fielder 
    can dunk a basketball with ease from a standing position, too.  Who 
    cares?  In any sport, if you have a skill or two as exceptionally
    well-developed as John Kruk's ability to hit a baseball, they'll find 
    a place for you to play...
    
    glenn
    

    Tommy, ya gots too much time on yer hands and yer wasting it analyzing
    a guy who's making tons of cash whilst carrying a figure more like
    JaKe's than Adonis, and HE'S playing a game fer his cash.
    
    Anybody see Kruk lasted week on Letterman????  he was absolutely
    hilarious.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    >>Score from last nite??
    
    Yes I did, thank you, but it's really none of yer business.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    >>Philly crowds are rough.  It was reported this morning that numerous
    >>Braves fans were roughed up, spit on, had beers dumped on 'em, etc.
    >>Supposedly kids had tomahawks ripped outa their hands and torn up on 
    >>the spot.
    
    What's yer point, Chris????   These people were just being on their
    best behaviour lasted night.  Just wait til ya see them if it goes to a
    sixth and seventh game, when they've had a chance to be on a week long
    drunk.
    
    JaKe
    

    Yeah, I saw Kruk.  He was pretty good...
    

    > If you only have one skill in basketball or football you'll see spot 
    > duty at best. Guys in Kruk's awful physical condition are FAR FAR more 
    > prevalent in baseball than in football or basketball.
    
    Basketball, yes, football, I don't think so.  Football has become
    extremely specialized, almost entirely a game of single skills, and 
    especially at the NFL level predictably more and more boring as the
    game has refined to the point where every weapon has an equally
    effective counterpart so that the inevitable result is that those 
    incredibly athletic field goal kickers decide the damned game.  I see a 
    lot of "athletes" on the line on both sides of the ball who are little 
    more than big men who happen to be relatively fast for their gargantuan 
    size and who have lifted a few weights to top off their girth.  Wow, 
    that's exciting.  And then there are a whole bunch of other guys who 
    are much better physical specimens but whose talents are almost 
    totally based in raw speed and/or strength, but limited precision 
    coordination.  Which is not to say that these guys are not very good 
    at what they do; they are (too good in the NFL's case), which is the 
    whole point with any sport.  
    
    In baseball there are still only two of eight everyday positions (we'll 
    concede the phonyleague DH here), 1B and LF, that do not require a high 
    degree of development in three separate athletic skills of precision
    (hitting, fielding, throwing), and as Inky proved last night, LF may be
    on the fringe but there's still great opportunity for embarrassment
    with no pigpile to hide in if you're totally immobile.  Pitching is a 
    more specialized skill but is arguably the most skilled task of all and
    which also requires the most endurance.  So with very few exceptions 
    this "prevalence" of baseball players in Kruk's condition reside at 1B, 
    and at least in the real baseball league, that's about it.
    
    glenn
     

I dunno about the pitching requires endurance therefore they are in good
shape angle Glenn...

Lots of Charlie Hough, Chris Bosio types that are in far less than good
physical condition that take the mound and do quite well. 

A lot of baseball players are as thick in the middle as those offensive
linemen it's just the height factor that's different. I'm quite sure
baseball players as a whole could  match up  quite well in the
percentage of  body fat category with futball players....

In either case they don't compare with the shape a hoops, hockey or
soccer player has to be in. Too much sitting around and eating involved
in the intracasies of baseball....


Metz

    Anyone have the over/under line on last night's game?
    
    

    
*    >>Score from last nite??
    
*    Yes I did, thank you, but it's really none of yer business.
    
*    JaKe
 
    
    Jack... err Jake Did your wife score too or just you? 
    
    
    REK
    
    
    :-}   
    

    I rephrase my question...
    
    can someone post the score for last nites game between A&P.
    
    RE: Jake - Glad to hear you scored, hopefully it went "extra-innings" :>)
    
    Shawn

    	Another Chubster, Terry Pendleton, goes 3-5 with 3 R(s)BI and a
    homer.  Man those Jenny Craig types are going to start tuning out CBS
    if they don't start getting some LookGoodFeelGood types to start
    shining in this series.
    
    				/Don

I guess Babe Ruth sucked too, because he was a chubbo, eh?


Some of us just aren't built like those lean, wiry guys who range around
shortstop, or are so fleet of foot in deep center field.   Some of us
are built like John Kruk or Cecil Fielder.  

Personally, I would think that the "freaks" are those guys who weigh
290 at 6'4" tall and can run a 5.0 40 yard dash.   Freaks are those guys
in basketball who are 6'10" tall, with size 19 feet.

Ahtletics shouldn't be the sole domain of people who are thin and fast.
Anyone and everyone should have a chance to participate if they so chose
and go as far as they can.

One reason I like rugby is because there are positions for everyone, 
and the varied requirements for the positions make it possible for a big
slow guy like me, who has some strength, to be on the same pitch with
a lean, FAST guy like Tommie Faust.


So, I take my hat off to a guy like Kruk.  He does what he does and
does it well, and besides, he's not one of those stuck up  "I'm God's
Gift to Baseball" guys like Rickey "Is My Ego Big Enough?" Henderson....


JMHO,
'Saw

                              
 > Pendleton can't be a chubbo, he plays third base. According to Glenn
 > all of the chubbos in baseball play first or left field not third like
 > Pendleton or center like Puckett and guys like Sid Fernandez have phen-
 > omenal endurance.
    
    No, guys like Pendleton and Puckett truly are athletes, in every sense 
    of the word, in spite of their "percentage of body fat" or whatever 
    other ridiculous standard you want to come up with to explain how
    they can't be athletes despite the remarkable things they do in the 
    field.  Likewise, I could erroneously generalize that playing point
    guard in the NBA can't be all that tough athletically if a John Bagley 
    is able to kick around for 10 years and even hold down a starting job 
    for much of that time (and he's not alone in that regard)...
    
    glenn
    

    When Pendleton grounded out to Kruk last night Sean McDonough reported
    that:
    
    "Pendleton and Kruk **RACE** to the bag".
    
    Wouldn't it have been more accurate to say something like:
    
    "Pendleton and Kruk RUMBLE toward the bag".
    
    
    - ACC Chris

>
>    Who's talking about freaks? We're talking about lack of physical cond-
>    itioning in sports, specifically baseball.

Who's to say that Kruk's physical condition isn't right for him.  
Certain boxers perform better a little heavier/lighter, so perhaps Kruk
does well where he's at.  Sometimes if you get a guy like that "into shape"
and he can't play as well...


| >> Ahtletics shouldn't be the sole domain of people who are thin and fast.
| >> Anyone and everyone should have a chance to participate if they so chose
| >> and go as far as they can.
|
|    You've been reading 'Gil Thorpe' again, haven't you?

No, actually I gave up on Gil, because, only getting one strip a week (I 
stopped getting the daily paper, so Gil only appears in my Saturday paper)
I cain't follow the stories....8^)


'Saw

                    
>    Please point out where I said that they weren't athletes. I didn't.
>    So get off yer soapbox.
    
    The Knorr-like evasion tactics don't suit you, Tommy.  Whatever. 
    The opposite of "chubbos", then.  Whatever other term you might want 
    to use that barely distinguishes a Puckett or Pendleton from some 
    donut-consuming couch potato.  Or hell, even Kruk, who (as he 
    demonstrated last night) fields his position passably and even stole 
    6 of 8 bases this season, and more just plain looks bad (intentionally 
    to some extent) in his uniform than anything you could objectively 
    gather from his actual play.
    
    glenn
    

>    "Fields his position passably" and "even stole 6 of 8 bases this 
>     season"? Well, there's a ringing endorsement of "John Kruk, Athlete".
>     The guy runs like monkeys play the piano. Apparently, in baseball
>     being woefully out of shape, makes you a character in a game that
>     just loves characters no matter how contrived.


That's more than Rich Gedman, and Gedman looked like he was in better
shape than Kruk.....

'Saw    

    re .522  over/under for last nites game
    
    My man had 7.5.........
    
    tom

    
    
     CHOP chop chop chop, CHOP chop chop chop, CHOP chop
    
       ayyyyaahhh, yahyahyahh yahha, ..etc, etc,
    
      

I don't remember anybody saying they aren't athletes. the argument being made is that there
is no sport other than baseball where you can be as fat and out of shape as many of the
major leaguers are and still be in the top echelon.

These guys might work hard at hand-eye coordination in the off season but there are a lot of
them that work more at hand-mouth coordination.

It's a specialized skill that most people don't have but don't try and pass these guys off
as having endurance and great athletic ability when what most of them have is 1 specialized
skill (hitting the ball or throwing the ball) and a modicum of ability to stand around and
stop the white pellet that is hit to them twice a game...

Terry Pendleton, John Kruk, Kirby PUckett, Kevin Mitchell, Keith Hernandez, Chris Bosio,
Charlie Hough....Lot s of fat guys playing a lot of different positions there...

It's also the only sport where you read about the guys smoking in the clubhouse....Most of
the other sports you have to respect your body more than that....


Metz

      Hey I'm athletic though I'm ~20lbs over.  I ride my Mtn bike, play
    baseball with my kids (I'm the pitcher and outfield and have to chase
    the balls and them) I play basketball, I do 12oz curls, I go fishing
    (killed 'em yesterday before the storm), I used to play sand lot
    football (til my ankle said no more) and I do "athletic" things at
    home with the misses;^).  Heck I even drive my car fast when I can get
    away with it.
    
      Tim...the athlete!

    
    	Keith Hernandez and Charlie Hough were/are fat?

    
    Mental slip..I meant Sid Fernandez...Charlie hough was just an old bag
    of bones that could barely beat Rich Gedman to first...
    
    Metz
    

>    It's a specialized skill that most people don't have but don't try and 
>    pass these guys off as having endurance and great athletic ability when 
>    what most of them have is 1 specialized skill (hitting the ball or 
>    throwing the ball) and a modicum of ability to stand around and
>    stop the white pellet that is hit to them twice a game...
    
    The endurance remark was made about pitchers, and when I said they
    require the most endurance of all the positions I was talking within a 
    baseball context.  No, they don't have to have the kind of aerobic 
    stamina that marathoners do, but at least the starting pitchers have 
    to be strong and build up the arm, legs, and butt to where they can 
    throw 100+ pitches every time out.  Some of what you guys are laughing 
    at (the big calves and butt, which, yes, might also be accompanied
    by a superfluous ample middle in some cases) is exactly where that 
    endurance comes from.  Go talk to Nolan Ryan or Tom Seaver about the
    stamina required by pitching...
    
    The other part about most players having only one real skill (hitting)
    and a "modicum of ability to stand around and stop the white pellet
    twice a game" is absolute crap.  At the positions of C, 2B, SS, 3B, CF, 
    and RF (that's six of eight everyday positions, and 1B and LF aren't a
    joke) the fielding skills required are intensive, and if a player can't 
    handle them with great consistency (~95% fielding success represents 
    abject failure at most positions), he won't be playing there regardless 
    of how good his bat is.  Unlike in football, baseball players must 
    perform on both offense and defense, and to say that the defensive 
    part of the equation is trivial suggests an ignorance of how the game is
    played (and won)...
    
    glenn
     
                           

    
    	When I pitched in high school, they ran us alot.  We did 40
    	pole (ie foul pole to foul pole is 1) sprints.  This was extra
    	running that the pitchers did.  Even with that, I'd still get
    	tired towards the end of the game....if I lasted that long!  
    
    Claybone

>    
>    	When I pitched in high school, they ran us alot.  We did 40
>    	pole (ie foul pole to foul pole is 1) sprints.  This was extra
>    	running that the pitchers did.  Even with that, I'd still get
>    	tired towards the end of the game....if I lasted that long!  
    
Never could pitch.  Have NO control at all.   Had a decent arm, could
get it in from deep center, and I always loved trying to gun down
a guy at 3rd if I was playing right.

Never got tired playing 1B because I was closest to the bench.....8^)


'Saw

Other than the center fielder having to be faster and the right fielder
needing a slightly stronger throwing arm (which seems to be an exception
these days) the defensive skill for the outfielder is minimul. 

The center fielder does have to be in better shape because they need to
recover their breath in that 10 minute interval between chances....

Gotta really feel for those players that run the bases then actually go out
and play the field without even getting chance to go  to  the bench for 
some oxygen...

Metz

    
    > Nope, it's just the big gut, the butt smoking and the beer drinking that
    > we're talking about. I remember my surprise as a kid of seeing a news
    > clip of Yaz in the dugout with a butt in his hand. 
    
    Congrats.  And I remember seeing Fred Biletnikoff smoke butt after butt
    on the sidelines in the ample time he had to sit there while his
    teammates played defense.  And he played a supposedly exhausting, 
    all-consuming skill position.  But at least cigarettes were all these 
    guys were smoking.  If self-abuse is the issue, why did/do so many 
    football players have to inject themselves with foreign performance-
    enhancing chemicals to become so athletically superior?  Hey, highly
    precise skill set requiring only the utmost practice and dedication
    there...
    
>     I'd guess that throwing a pitch every 5-10 seconds or so with ample rest
>     when the other team is in the field is a hell of alot less strenuous
>     than playing sixty minutes of basketball (with its rest periods) or 
>     running around a football field with 35 pounds of equipment on for a
>     whole game.
    
    Then you'd have guessed wrong.  These days the average football player
    participates in no more than 50-60 plays over a three-hour game.  It's
    pretty tough work being the third-down blocking back or the first-down 
    defensive tackle, I know.  The stamina required by most basketball 
    players I'll give you without an argument...
    
    Metz, I don't understand your trivialization of the defensive skills
    required in baseball.  Many a great hitter has washed out in the field
    and either had to adapt at one of the two lesser positions or moved on.
    At the ML level we're talking about the best of tens of millions
    who played as youths and where there's no predominant size requirement 
    to advancing to the highest levels (unlike football and basketball), 
    and from what I'm hearing it's like any weekend softball player could 
    do what these guys are doing if they could only make contact at the 
    plate one out of three times...
    
    glenn
      

     >   The point (once again) is the god-awful physical condition that
     >   many (most?) baseball players are in and the way it is accepted
     >   without question.
    
    Hardly "most".  More like a handful, unless just being slow or 
    something like that qualifies.  
    
     >  Fred Bilitnikoff may have smoked butts on the
     >  sidelines twenty years ago but he couldn't make it in the NFL
     >  today doing that.  
    
    Why not?  I've seen it fairly recently (sorry, I don't remember the
    specifics; I want to say it was that clown Jim McMahon, but I'm not
    100% sure), and since the aerobic requirement for many of the players 
    is that they finish the training camp mile run in under ten minutes,
    seriously, what's cigarette smoking going to hurt?  If it's only image
    that you're concerned with then I concede the point... 
    
     >> If self-abuse is the issue, why did/do so many football players 
     >> have to inject themselves with foreign performance-enhancing 
     >> chemicals to become so athletically superior?  
      >
      >  Self-abuse isn't the issue. You're so enthralled with the sound
      >  of your own voice that you don't hear what anyone else is saying.
    
    No Tommy, while I have a healthy respect for the athletes in most all
    professional sports, I am merely once again defending baseball from 
    the usual BS: you don't have to be an athlete (your original premise), 
    you need one well-developed skill and that's about it, the players are
    an embarrassment, blah blah blah.  The circularly illogical argument 
    continues as such:  Look at that Nolan Ryan or Roger Clemens.  Why, 
    those guys are no athletes; they couldn't play point guard in the NBA
    or free safety in the NFL.  Hey, no kidding!
    
    glenn
      

    re: baseball fight
    
    When Waugamain and Byrdie go at it in one of their usual sophomoric
    arguments it makes me *yearn* for the good ole days of Dean Apolegtics,
    when mainly men like BobHunt, MrT, and even the cruel Cap would do
    battle with me and Dan Schneider.  
    
    Ya see, we were in it for real.  I *believe* that Dean is the greatest
    ever, and they didn't [don't].  In the case of Waugamain and Byrdie, the 
    later can't possibly believe what he writes unless he's real dumb which 
    he's not, but he doesn't care cause he's bored, and Waugamain knows that
    Byrdie doesn't mean it, but he doesn't care either cause he's bored too!
    
    Time to go read SPORTS_90 I guess ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    > Ain't you the big dummy
    
    When you say "big", do you mean athletically big (as in I could play a
    real sport like football or basketball) or fat big (as in I could be a
    baseball player)?
    
    Inquiring minds and all ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    >> CHOP chop chop chop, CHOP chop chop chop, CHOP chop
    
    >>   ayyyyaahhh, yahyahyahh yahha, ..etc, etc,
    
    the Tomahawk Wankers return to NLCS TV tomorrow night, which is why I
    will not be watching ANY of the NLCS this weekend.  
    
    Smokey Burgess, now he was a true athlete.
    
    JaKe
    

    > the Tomahawk Wankers return to NLCS TV tomorrow night
    
    Not quite.  Game time is Saturday afternoon, around 3pm, and despite my
    status as faux Braves fan, I will be there!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    details, details, details.
    
    ya get my point, though, right Chris??
    
    JaKe
    

    re: JaKe
    
    CHOP!  CHOP!  CHOP!!!
    
    Ha.
    
    
    Here's a question for ya though JaKe (sorry Mr.Moderator for posting
    in the wrong place):
    
    How come the more you guys talk about how you hate the tomahawk chop,
    the more it makes me wanna do it?
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    > Not quite.  Game time is Saturday afternoon, around 3pm, and despite my
    > status as faux Braves fan, I will be there!
    
    Smoltz' start, no?  I look for those big fat Phillie lefthanded hitters 
    Kruk, Hollins, Daulton and Dykstra to tear his face off (seriously)...
    
    glenn
    

      Maybe Tommy was saying that baseball players don't deserve
    $3-4mil/year to spit on themselves and stand in the outfield and chat
    with spectators that are waiting for something exciting to happen(-).
    
      Tim

    
    >>How come the more you guys talk about how you hate the tomahawk chop,
    >>the more it makes me wanna do it?
    
    Just get a Playboy mag. some paper towels, and head to the bafroom and
    "chop" all ya want.
    
    Would be more fitting wif all of those idjits in Atlanta doing the
    PeeWee Wank, and calling it the tomahawk Chop, if they played Atlanta
    Rythm Section's song, "Imaginary Lover" and had Pee Wee herman's
    picture on the scoreboard whilst all of them were doin it.
    
    JMHO
    
    JaKe
    

    
    >>  Maybe Tommy was saying that baseball players don't deserve
    >>$3-4mil/year to spit on themselves and stand in the outfield and chat
    >>with spectators that are waiting for something exciting to happen(-).
    
    >>  Tim
    
    Well maybe Tommy shoulda just said that then instead of beating around
    the bush.
    
    (8^)
    
    JaKe
    

    re Smokey Burgess:
    
    I'm wit you JaKe.  Smokey was da best.
    
    re: SDUC
    
    Go figure.  I'm not in today and I miss out on the Notes Fight of the
    Week.  You kinda loose sumfin in translation when you have ta read
    it all post-mortum.  
    
    Funniest part was the fact that after the combatants are all "U"ed out
    ACChris chimes in trying to get someone to "U" with him. "Sorry folks,
    that's the last one!"
    
    Thanks for the late night entertainment!
    billl
    
    

    re: -1
    
    His name was Smoky, not Smokey.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    JaKe is a closet Francisco Cabrera fan.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Nah, TCM, but I wouldn't mind seeing Cabrera fed face first into a
    high speed fan blade!!!
    
    (8^0
    
    JaKe
    

Philadelphia	1 0 0   1 0 0   x x x  -  2  3  0
Atlanta		0 0 0   0 0 0   x x x  -  0  4  1

Top of first, Duncan singles, scores on Kruk double to right.
Bottom of first, Blauser singles, McGriff two out hit off top of right field
  wall, Chamberlain to Stocker to Duncan just gets Blauser at home.
Top of fourth, Incaviglia reaches on 3-base error by Gant, scores on sacrifice
  fly by Chamberlain.

Avery and Schilling still pitching.

    Shades of the 1992 NLCS... Philthies have blown a 3-0 lead in the
    bottom of the ninth, now tied 3-3 (on Francisco Cabrera's base hit),
    still first-and-third, only one out... Mitch Williams is blowing it
    again with the aid of another error by (defensive replacement!) 3B 
    Kim Batiste... 
    
    glenn
    

    
    Phillies manage to dodge the bullet with a strikeout of Lemke and a
    another flyout... on to extras...
    
    glenn
    

    Phils win on Dykstra's HR in the 10th - shades of '86.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

SWEET victory.

I'll be Bob Hunt is dancing a jig.....



'Saw

    First I wish I could have seen all of this phillies braves series.  I
    just get bits and pieces.  Of course it is far from over and there is
    probably not much of a home field advantage.
    
    Braves have to beat the two pitchers they beat before, greene and
    mulholland using maddox and glavine.  I'd rate it a toss up with
    mulholland the key - he was out for awhile but has great stuff and of
    course is a lefty which is crucial as mcgriff and justice are keys.
    
    I have a little $5 bet on phils with my neighbor who in return would
    not give me jays.
    
    mulholland performance will be key to whether I go out on a limb and
    pick phils against jays.  And if Greene crashes and burns again then I
    think he should stay in bullpen for series (if m can pull out finale).

    > mulholland performance will be key to whether I go out on a limb and
    > pick phils against jays.  And if Greene crashes and burns again then I
    > think he should stay in bullpen for series (if m can pull out finale).
    
    I wouldn't count out the White Sox just yet-- Fernandez and Alvarez are
    a formidable pitching duo and just as with Maddux and Glavine, if they're 
    on they can take out Stewart and Hentgen.  If it weren't for that 
    stinkin' bum Jack McDowell this series might have been almost as
    interesting as its NL counterpart...
    
    glenn
    

    
    
      Yea, all I heard was how great a big game pitcher Black Jack is.  I
    also am sick of hearing "he only gives up as many runs a they score
    for him thats why is era is high" his era is high because he isn't as
    good a people think and his w-l is good because the Sox score a bunch
    when he pitches.  He has gagged in his first two tries and if the Sox
    kids can pull it out we can all sit around and watch him choke some
    more.
    
    Jerry  

    	Perhaps mcdowell is suffering from fatigue just like I see Smoltz
    and Avery being a mite tired.  Jack threw a lot of innings.  Plus no
    right handers have handled jays this year (except mr bere from
    wilmington but mass. pitchers are a special category (*)).
    
    	And Glenn, you're right.  I didn't think chi would last this long
    and last two are in chi-town.  I don't particularly like hentgen and if
    I were gaston would go with stottlemire (sic) in (if)7th.
    
    	Lets root for both series going seven and ground round in
    chelmsford sounds like a good place to catch wed. aft. game if played
    at 3pm.
    
    Bill

    It's kinda sad to see Bo Jackson look so mediocre after years of
    excelling. There was an article in the Globe, I believe, on this
    point.  But it wasn't so professional of Bo to dump all over Dan
    Pasqua, then getting his chance and doing worse than Dan.
    
    And never mind about George Whacko Bell. The main is a hopeless dope.
    
    BTW, I continue to be impressed by Dave Stewart. Not only is he a
    money player on the field, but off the field in his own quiet way
    he's a giving person. I'm personally rooting for a Chisox-Phils
    Series, but if Hotlanta gets in vs Toronto, I'm gonna root for
    Stew to get another ring.
    
    MikeL
    

From:	ROYALT::US1RMC::"71251.2074@CompuServe.COM" "Robert E Hunt Jr" 13-OCT-1993 03:57:47.74
To:	Walt Ashe - Comp & Peripheral FT - DTN 235-8150 <royalt::ashe>
CC:	
Subj:	You're being paged across the network...

Walt,

Nice to hear from you again ... I'd be delighted to share a few happy thoughts
regarding the current state of affairs in the National League Championship
Series.

What can I say about what is undoubtedly the most "colorful" Phillies team in
memory ... These guys are a serious throwback to a bygone baseball era.
They're either spitting or scratching or picking their noses or barfing
sunflower seeds ... Wow, what a crew.   They're also winning ... big time.

This year's Phils finally, at long last, have learned just how valuable a hot
April and May can be.  After all those years of going 15-30 in the first 10
weeks, they finally zoomed out in front of everybody and basically just coasted
after the All-Star Break.   Yeah, there were some late-season "Ghosts of 1964"
rumblings but the Expos just had too much ground to make up and not quite
enough stud talent to do it.

And so now they're up against the Big Bad Braves ... with their All-Stud
rotation and their All-Stud lineup ... And they're winning 3-2.   I am pinching
myself, I must admit.   So many other Phillies teams have refused to play like
this but this one just doesn't quit.   They're winning the "nerve" games and
the Braves haven't seen this before.    I think the Braves are facing some
serious doubts right about now.   They may very well have thought the Phils
were dead and buried after their second consecutive blowout in Game 3.    But
the Phils have risen from the dead and it's right there in front of them ... So
close ... So very close.

Yet these are the Braves we're talking about here ... and in case anyone has
forgotten, that 9th inning line drive by Mark Lemke was foul by just a foot
yesterday.   Way too close.   The series is *not* over ... not by a long shot.
But I'm tickled to death with the way they're playing and the results they're
getting.

And if they do win the NLCS, I would *not* bet against them against either the
ChiSox or the Blue Jays.    These Phils just might have the magic touch this
year.  Might.  Maybe.   Oh, probably not but it never hurts to dream.  Voice of
experience.

Bob Hunt

P.S.   It's nice to have something fun to read in the Charlotte sports page
besides the countdown to the Tar Heels first hoops practice ... :-) :-)

    I can recall a phillies world championship in 1980(?) over KC.  Was
    there another phillies world ch. in schmidt era.
    
    Trying to see if old phillies redsox disease had been extinquished.
    
    I don't like tommy greene's chances tonight, load up on braves.

    Re: 1980
    
    Isn't that the year the Phils and Astros gave us that awesome NLCS?

    BTW - As most know I rarely watch baseball.  I happened to tune in to
    Game 5 (mainly to test out my new TV ;-)) and was shocked at Dykstra.
    This guy has been pumping some serious iron since the last time I saw
    him (I think it was the '86 WS).

    
    Phils are about the only likeable team out there.  I'm tired of the ted
    and jane show, the Chisox (now gone) seemed to have no personality, and
    Dave Stewart (how I wish T were still here) is the only reason I can
    find to root for the Jauys, the rest of the team I hate.
    
    Since this makes me a Phils fan, for a few weeks I hope, guess I need
    to go load up on the pizza and beer and go get a bad haircut.
    
    brews 

Phils lost the 1983 WS to Baltimore in 5 games.

The Crazy Met

1980 - yup the NLCS in which 4 of 5 games went to extra innings. Astros
kept getting the lead and the Phillies kept coming back. Astros played in
the 2 most exciting NLCS and lost both times.

The Crazy Met

    The Philthydelfia Philthy's did tonite what the PIRATES couldn't do the
    lasted two years.
    
    They beat Atlanturd, 6-3 to win the NL pennant.
    
    Glad to see that southern team and their tomahawk"PeeWeeHermanWank"
    chop go down.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Has anyone ever seen Tommy Green and Tom Chambers at the same place at
    the same time?
    
    					Steve

 Geez I didn't think Tim McCarver was going to make till the end of
 the game after they snatch away the baton....

 FTTMI, They brought in some famous orchestra conductor to lead the 7 th
 inning stretch of "Take me out to the ballgame", this guy's leaaning out
 of the Press Box leading the crowd with an oversized baton and the fans
 up above reached down and took it aWAY... I was in tears myself...

 only in Philly...

 mike

    And the NLCS MVP was a starting pitcher who didn't win a game or even
    received a decision -- former Red Sox farmhand and Oriole Curt
    Schilling.

	It's definitely the year of the Phillies.  Other than Dieon, who's a 
boor, the Braves have nobody to appeal to the "Gangstah Youth" types.  In 
steps "America's Most Wanted Team" with their beards, ponytail long hair and 
appearances on Letterman.  Throw in the model goodlooking Daulton and the 
fact most of the stars are white and you have a marketing winner!  I look 
for Philadelphia to win the Series at home and then shuttle up the pike to 
be on Letterman that same night.  Inky, Kruky and Nailsy (New York instists 
on that one) will be selling everything from soup to nuts in two weeks.
What a country!  Where can I order my "America's Most Wanted Philadelphia 
Phillies World Series Champion" t-shirt?  I gotta have it!      

				/Don

    
    	Yabbut did anybody else have a flashback to that funny baseball
    movie (forget the name) when they showed the sign "Wild Thing"?
    
    I thought it was pretty neat how the 9th inning closer for Philly
    (Williams?) would throw 3 pitches all over the place and then come back
    with 3 right down the pipe!
    
    I remain,
    a thing of wild too!
    Kev
    

    
    
         Major Leagues was the movie. And yes it came to mind.
    
    
    
    
    Chappy

    Yea and that faux orchestra leader didn't miss a beat when his baton
    was swiped. Methinks it was orchestrated.. Whoops/There It Went.
    
    
    That was hilarious tho.. that and the "Whoops, There It Is" whenever
    the Philths did something. Did any Brave feign get mercifully chopped?
    
    
    MikeL
    

Is the Larry Anderson who is on the Phillies the same one the Red Sox 
traded Jeff Bagwell for?? Guess he finally did make it to the WS. heh heh

The Crazy Met

    I didn't and don't have a problem with Larry Anderson; he came to bring
    the sox the '90 east div. pennant and he did the job and the sox
    couldn't have won the division without him or anything less than the
    superb effort he gave us prior to morgan using him up - period.
    
    And I don't have a problem with giving up a prospect to get a pennant;
    my only problem is why do the schillings and bagwells get culled out of
    our crop with the .... you name ems left.  Or, why do these other teams
    know our talent better than we(Lou I'm talking to you) do.
    
    

    
> Is the Larry Anderson who is on the Phillies the same one the Red Sox 
> traded Jeff Bagwell for?? Guess he finally did make it to the WS. heh heh
    
    Yes, it is.  I made the same comment; that Lou was right, Andersen
    finally did make an impact in the offseason...
    
    glenn
    

    Congrats to the pride of Kittanning/Ford City PA, Mickey Morandini, for 
    his great work in knocking Greg Maddux off and later out of his game, 
    and tossing in some sparkling defense to the worthy cause of bringing 
    down the evil Turner empire!
    
    glenn
    

    
    > And I don't have a problem with giving up a prospect to get a pennant;
    > my only problem is why do the schillings and bagwells get culled out of
    > our crop with the .... you name ems left.  Or, why do these other teams
    > know our talent better than we(Lou I'm talking to you) do.
    
    Yep, that's the basic problem in a nutshell.  Houston originally wanted 
    Scott Cooper but against all logic Lou "insisted" on AA batting champ 
    (and NE kid, Boston-born) Bagwell; Schilling was an afterthought and
    throw-in to the Boddicker trade, a young and talented arm that the Red 
    Sox had given up on because of some minor control problems.  Fact is, 
    notwithstanding the revisionist Loo-xcuses, they didn't think much 
    of him...
    
    glenn
    

    Williams wears #99 in tribute to the movie... that and because his
    old number was he ex-wife's favorite number...
    

    Well I will make predictions here.
    
    I am going out on a limb and taking Phils which is akin to a mets over
    orioles '69 type of prediction.
    
    But, I am still basing my hunch on the effectiveness of mulholland
    along with some hopes on danny jackson.  Perhaps the Schilling/Greene
    combo can come up with a win.
    
    But the jays can hit and play very good baseball; something the
    national league teams have to improve - this may not be the general
    impression but it certainly is my observation.
    
    I consider taking Phils a hunch, underdog type of bet and if it were
    real money...
    
    bill

    
    > I consider taking Phils a hunch, underdog type of bet and if it were
    > real money...
    
    Not so outlandish, though.  I'm taking the Phils in 6 or 7 because
    their strong lefthanded hitting lineup matches up well against the
    Jays' exclusively RH starting pitching, and because as you mention 
    if the LHP Mulholland/Jackson are reasonably effective, Toronto has
    had some problems there (23-27 against LH starters this year).
    
    glenn
    

    
    	Yabbut what about the Phillies ability to handle WS pressure?
    Could that effect stuff?
    
    Emotionally, I want Philly.
    
    Logically, I think it's the Jays
    
    I remain,
    not sure which way to go
    Kev
    

    	CBS wants the Phils, so it will be the Phils in 5,6 or 7.
    
    				/Don

    	One of the players said something like "following Dykstra in
    	centerfield is like walking into a toxic waste site."
    
    	Scott